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Die Another Day
05-22-2003, 05:45 PM
Alright, I'll admit it. I've been sitting at home, watching countless television adverts, 'Making Of' programmes and documentaries, not to mention news reports and updates, about this film called "The Matrix Reloaded". Then I come to the Swamp, and find everyone talking about the adventures of Neo, Morpheus and the gang (I won't even talk about everyone's avatars and signature pictures). So, I'll cut to the chase - why?

Okay, I enjoyed the first film, but only slightly. The different perspectives on action were cool, and especially bullet-time, that deserves a mention. The fights were fun, inventive and interesting, and to it's credit, "The Matrix" did well in that department. But that's where the praise ends. The acting quality was poor, the storyline just a little over-the-top (yes, the entire world is a computer programme...) and everything just smacked a little too much of cheesy buzz-words like the afforementioned 'bullet-time'. It was meerly a special effect junkie's paradise.

I guess this is all just personal taste, right? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm not trying to belittle anyone who is a fan of "The Matrix". However, now we have two new films coming our way before Christmas 2003, a new game which links in with the film (how do people who don't own game consoles feel, eh? Like their missing out.) and several short "AniMatrix" cartoons which serve little purpose, I am left asking, "What the hell is the appeal of these films?"

All I see is an overworked franchise which is building on the success of the first film and ultimately, after all this hype and promotion, will fall flat on it's face. Everything about "The Matrix" was average to me, so why does everyone expect some cinematic history to be made with the following films, "Reloaded" and "Revolutions"? Why, people? What's the big deal?

Oh, and please don't start with turning my words around and saying that "Die Another Day" was terrible. I've already had that from everyone I've talked to at work and home, who, incidently, love "The Matrix". And it wasn't enjoyable.

•-BLaCKouT-•
05-22-2003, 05:58 PM
Blimey Die, you like to start em don'tcha? :p

Firstly, I want to say that you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I respect it. I know people who've sat through Star Wars completely unmoved too (really). Not everyone is going to love every film. Example, I'm not really too into the James Bond films, which I know you are. I can see people what like in them, they just don't float my boat, y'know?

So why do I love the Matrix? Well, it's just cool I suppose. Yes it's exaggerated, yet the acting's ropey sometimes , but hey; I love Episode II as well! :p I'm sure other people will be able to justify the Matrix's fandom better than myself: I'm a SW geek first and foremost.

Oh, and not notpicking, but Enter The Matrix is available for the PC too, not just consoles. Having said that, it depends on your specs obviously. I can run JO but I'm having trouble running nearly everything that's come out after that. :(

On a last note, I've got to say I wasn't overly impressed by the Matrix the first time I saw it, because everyone hyped it so much. It wasn't until about a year later that I was more 'receptive' to it, and I've loved it since. Sure it's not perfect, but what is?

EDIT: Also, it's 2005 until the next SW film! Lord of the Rings isn't enough for us geeks, we need something more nerdy to be into! :p

B.

ET Warrior
05-22-2003, 06:27 PM
One of your reasons why you don't think the Matrix is that good is because it's too.....unbelievable? That the real world is just a computer simulation designed to pull the wool over our eyes is too.......far-fetched?

It's Science Fiction, it's SUPPOSED to be unreal. Star Wars, Star Trek, The X-Files, etc. etc. Science fiction is not supposed to be completely believable, it's supposed to take you in a direction that you've never been before, and look cool while doing it.

In that sense, the Matrix owns Science Fiction.



And you told me not too, but i'm gonna do it anyways. I LOVE James Bond, but some of the plots are, to me, FAR more far-fetched, and the acting is at times downright laughable.

The World is not enough.....Christmas Jones played by....I believe her name is....a jeez i dunno, but she's quite possibly the worst actress alive. Just a few of her lines that made me want to die. (note, these may not be 100% accurate, but they convey the basic message. The lines themselves aren't horrible, just the way they were delivered) Although probably 99% of the bond girls have been TERRIBLE actresses. Halle Berrie was the only Bond Girl I can remember who had any talent beyond her physical assets.

"Somebody's tampered with the bomb!"
"if we don't find that nuke, somebody's going to have my ass"
"I talked to him, and he's no rocket scientist"



All I see is an overworked franchise which is building on the success of the first film

And....HOW many James Bond movies are there?

Thrackan Solo
05-22-2003, 06:33 PM
And....HOW many James Bond movies are there?

Uhh yeah really...dont you think they have ran Ol' James into the ground?:confused:

And how realistic is that? The dude gets billions of bullets shot at him and jumps off buildings, jumps out helicopters, etc. and still has time to boff a girl at the end of the day.:) Its not like other spies life.

Boba Rhett
05-22-2003, 06:36 PM
...




:indif:




*walks out of thread*

Matt-Liell
05-22-2003, 06:59 PM
And now today is the other day you will die on!



"DODGE THIS!"

*shoots and leaves thread!*

Thrackan Solo
05-22-2003, 07:09 PM
Ha I would like to see James Bond fight Neo. He wouldnt last 30 seconds.:) Neo would lay the smack-down on him :smash:
HA even the Oracle could probably beat him

Matt-Liell
05-22-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
Ha I would like to see James Bond fight Neo. He wouldnt last 30 seconds.:) Neo would lay the smack-down on him :smash:
HA even the Oracle could probably beat him


The ORacle would kill him. Plus I bet Bond would try to use a spoon when in reality "There is no Spoon!":p

Darth Groovy
05-22-2003, 08:04 PM
Just how many Matrix threads do we need really?

*walks out of the thread in discust*

Lunatic Jedi
05-23-2003, 12:35 AM
We need thousands! THOUSANDS I TELL YOU!!!

Darth Eggplant
05-23-2003, 02:06 AM
*I do bullet time Matrix Macarena's at you:cool: *

saw the last Bond film talk about sleep walking.
sam stunts, same gags, same plotline rehashed.
you don't have to think to watch 007.

Lunatic Jedi
05-23-2003, 02:11 AM
I'm with Eggplant. At least the Matrix is enigmatic and gives you something to think about.

J.K Luke
05-23-2003, 03:20 AM
ahh, it's all come down to personal taste really. I like Matrix for its story and can't wait for Revolution. Of course the kungfu and bullet time effect are what I enjoy watching too :)

jokemaster
05-23-2003, 02:14 PM
You know you're just asking for comparisions and contrasts with the Bond movies, I like both series and I watch them, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
But one thing: I agree with most of the replies, how many james bond movies are there? How many spin-offs, games, heck there were plans to do a TV series

Thrackan Solo
05-23-2003, 06:29 PM
Uhhh I wonder why he hasnt replied yet:confused:

XWING5
05-23-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by BLaCKouT_1138
So why do I love the Matrix? Well, it's just cool I suppose. Yes it's exaggerated, yet the acting's ropey sometimes , but hey; I love Episode II as well! :p I'm sure other people will be able to justify the Matrix's fandom better than myself: I'm a SW geek first and foremost.
Sure it's not perfect, but what is?

Right on Blackout!! I agree with everything you said. And, EpII is "ropey" but it is wonderful!!

El Sitherino
05-23-2003, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by jokemaster
You know you're just asking for comparisions and contrasts with the Bond movies, I like both series and I watch them, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
But one thing: I agree with most of the replies, how many james bond movies are there? How many spin-offs, games, heck there were plans to do a TV series they made a series called james bond jr. i used to watch it when i was little mainly because i was a stupid naive little twerp.

Lost Welshman
05-24-2003, 03:24 PM
The reason people liked the original Matrix film was because when they came out they felt...well...cool. I don't know if you feel cool, or feel that what you saw was cool. Whatever it was it was cool. When you step out of the cinema(theater) into the cool breeze of the night you think 'cool, that film was cool' and then you sit in the cool ferrari with the cool leather seats, and say to dad 'That was cool, lets go home' and dad says, 'cool' and then i said 'cool' and then we drove home, which was cool. And I had a nice cool glass of milk.

*sigh*

it was cool

Thrackan Solo
05-24-2003, 03:57 PM
and then you sit in the cool ferrari



:confused: You have a ferrari? That is cool:cool:

Lost Welshman
05-24-2003, 04:41 PM
Lol, yup. I have a ferrari!

A bit off topic so i'll go back on topic.

The Animatrix (or what I've seen of it (The Final Flight of the Osiris) On tv the other night) Is amazing.

Die Another Day
05-26-2003, 10:05 AM
Well, I just typed out a VERY long response and LucasForums told me I wasn't logged on anymore, so I've just lost everything I wrote before logging back on and coming back here. So I'm VERY angry.

ET Warrior, "The Matrix" may well be science fiction, but it's still set in this time period. It's telling us that we are all living inside a computer. At least George Lucas had the intelligence to create his own galaxy (far, far away...) to play in, and didn't make up a poor, flimsy excuse to ninja-kick someone's face in mid-air.

James Bond isn't a tired, overworked franchise. Bond has been around in the cinema since 1962, and produced twenty quality blockbuster films which have each been amazing in their own right. The books have been around even longer, and each one was a bestseller (even the American President JF Kennedy read "From Russia, With Love" and told the press that it was his favourite book). The Bond films have got stronger and stronger with age, and each one is realistic, not over-the-top futuristic. Lasers - done in real life. Hovercrafts - done in real life. Making a vehicle invisible by using micro-camera's on one side which project the image they see on to a light-emmiting ploymer skin on the other - DONE IN REAL LIFE (the British Army have made a tank invisible against certain backdrops by using the technology Q described to the letter in "Die Another Day"). "The Matrix" is nothing but a special effects trip.

About feeling cool: I felt cheated and bored when I came out of "The Matrix Reloaded" yesterday. it was terrible, and I wasted good money when I could have easily done something much better with £6.50p. However, I know what you are getting at Lost Welshman - I felt cool when I came out of "Die Another Day", and so did all my mates. There was a similar effect after "The World Is Not Enough" and "Tomorrow Never Dies", both of which I saw at the cinema.

As for spin-offs, "James Bond Jnr" was a very successful cartoon series, designed for kids and watched by kids. Computer games? Well, look at "Star Wars" - how many computer games have been made about that galaxy far, far away? It's because people love the films, and want to play in that universe as their favourite film character. I bet if I was a massive "Star Wars" fan and didn't like James Bond, yet still posted what I have, there wouldn't be such a big argument now. "007 - NightFire" is amazing, as are all the James Bond games (all six of them... compared to "Star Wars" games, which have reached in excess of fifty). And what about "Enter the Matrix", eh?

I wanted to know what people saw in "The Matrix" because I didn't see it. I didn't want a childish thread which contained such things like "Neo would beat James Bond in a fight!" or things which compared the Bond films to "The Matrix". Bond isn't science fiction, so you can't compare him to something that IS science fiction. It's all a matter of personal taste, which is something I stressed in my opening post.

PS: ET Warrior, Doctor Christmas Jones never says that last quote, and what's stupid about saying "Someone's tampered with the bomb!" when someone really had (Renard removed half of the plutonium)?

•-BLaCKouT-•
05-26-2003, 10:17 AM
I'm sorry you feel that way about the Matrix Reloaded, Die. But, like I said, not every film is for everyone.

I'm also sorry it turned into a 'slagging off James Bond' thread. It seemed obvious to me that your opening post was more of a question, not a criticism. Ironic really that this isn't a Matrix board; if you 'd said that on the MFN forums, the thread would probably have disappeared without trace.

Still, keep chillin Die, 'cool' is a matter of opinion, remember? :D

B.

jokemaster
05-26-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by BLaCKouT_1138

Still, keep chillin Die, 'cool' is a matter of opinion, remember? :D

B.
yeah, however, james bond is sometimes unrealistic (catching a plane in a free fall anyone?) I like both series, i don't mind it if they're unrealistic, they entertain me and..
*Gets dragged off by men in white lab coats for displaying sanity*

•-BLaCKouT-•
05-26-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by jokemaster
yeah, however, james bond is sometimes unrealistic

Indeed it is. I thought that was the point though. If it was 'realistic' then they wouldn't have half the gadgets they do and Bond would have been killed years ago.

Gets dragged off by men in white lab coats for displaying sanity
Indeed. ;) We'll have less of that if you don't mind.

B.

BCanr2d2
05-26-2003, 01:16 PM
The Matrix, is more of a question about "What If...."

What if that was real, that our lives are predetermined, we have no control over them, that what we PERCEIVE to be real is nothing but an illusion. It's more of a mindf@#k than you really think. You may think the world is real, but just because all of your senses can feel it, doesn't mean that the same electrical responses can't be generated by a computer. Easy to plant in history through a computer program.....
For the want of a better term, the Matrix Universe is more of an alternate reality, than an unbelievable one. Don't go into the Matrix movie not believing it's possible, then you are on the wrong mindset. It offers a "This Could Be True" kind of movie, whilst still being fairly out there, but not totally out of the question. If you leave your mind open enough to think that it's possible, then you will see the Matrix movies beyond the Bullet Time, and the action.

Compared to James Bond, it's plausible. Let's get it clear, there is only one Bond, and that was Sean Connery, and he hasn't been in one for many a year.

The_One
05-26-2003, 02:29 PM
I'm with Die Another Day on this one - in regard to his feelings towards The Matrix.

I personally I feel it is over-hyped and over-rated - not the classic some people would have you believe. I try to stay out of these Matrix debates as I never seem able to convince the blind fans out there that this really isn't that good a movie. I remember being flamed to hell once in another forum for declaring The Matrix a comedy.

It seems as if nowadays films are purely designed to be visually appealing, and little else. I always picture directors thinking to themselves "hmmm, this would make a good game" - that seems to be what modern films are mostly, glorified video games on the big screen.

You have to seek high and low for a good, quality film these days. Many of the films I rent out are unheard of by the majority of people - and then I glance over to the new releases section and all 500 copies of "The Scorpion King" have been rented out. I hold my head in shame, I really do.

The film industry is in such an apalling state at the moment, sometimes I wonder if it will ever get back on its feet. When was the last time you saw a quality performance that you actually believed from an actor in a block buster film? I can't think of any.

The Matrix falls into this trap. They come up with what is, in fact an unoriginal story - watch "Dark City" (a brilliant film), it seems they extracted the plot from there. All they had left to do was hire a load of "actors" whose names people would recognise, stick them in the film and then add a bunch of special effects. Bam! You have a movie. Strip out the special effects, and what are you left with? Not much.

Wake up to the reality Matrix fans. Your beloved franchise is not all its cracked up to be. Go and watch a proper film, with proper actors. A decent film shouldn't need special effects - you should be purely concentrating on the actors themselves, no fancy extra crap. And if it is in there, it should be used merely as a backdrop, not to carry the entire film. These are the kinds of films that should be blockbusters.

Oh, if only it were a reality.

Die Another Day
05-26-2003, 02:43 PM
BCanr2d2, no offense, but if everyone lived their lives asking "What if...?" then nothing would get done. What if I hadn't stopped to tie my shoe lace, would I have been in that car accident up ahead? What if I was nicer to that person, would they turn out to be my friend? You should stop reviewing the possible outcomes and just be happy with the outcome you take in life...

Just a little philosophical nonsense from your friendly James Bond fan!

Oh, and thanks for that wonderful post, The_One. Just please tell me you haven't named yourself after Neo (joking)?!? I agree, BLaCKouT_1138, this has turned slightly anti-James Bond. Ah well, I don't care. I like 007, I love "Die Another Day" and I'm happy with it. If other people don't like it, I'm not going to ram it down their throats. That would just be mean... plus, have you tried swallowing a DVD whole? Painful and messy, that's what I say.

Where are those men in white coats? Time for my medication, I feel...

PS: BCanr2d2, Sean Connery is overrated. He is a brilliant actor, and brought a class to the role of James Bond, but just because he was the original doesn't make him the best. Both Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan have out-performed Connery in the role of 007, bringing a much better performance all-round in their films. Connery is good, but not good enough to be the best Bond.

Darklighter
05-26-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by The_One
The Matrix falls into this trap. They come up with what is, in fact an unoriginal story - watch "Dark City" (a brilliant film), it seems they extracted the plot from there. All they had left to do was hire a load of "actors" whose names people would recognise, stick them in the film and then add a bunch of special effects. Bam! You have a movie. Strip out the special effects, and what are you left with? Not much.

I must say, Dark City was an excellent movie, absolutely gripping stuff. When The Matrix first came out, I could see the similarities very clearly, problem was it completely phased out DC cos of the special effects. I'd go to my friends at school "Don't you think The Matrix is a lot like Dark City?", and they're like "Dark what?"

Problem is, in this day and age the only films that would sustain a place at the top of the box office charts with three films running are action movies. It is what attracts viewing audiences nowadays. How come all the good with good storylines and acting are never recognised, and the so-called blockbuster movies are always in the public eye? Cos publicity is everything today, good plots don't matter.

This is true for many films, but personally I believe The Matrix is an exception. Yes, it uses Hollywood movie actors, yes, it uses rediculous sums of money on special effects, yes, it is designed to get to number one at the box office. But the difference is, it pulls it off oh so well ^^

I believe The Matrix to be a truly revolutionary concept in science fiction. Maybe a lot of the themes were borrowed from Dark City, but it expands on the idea on a such greater scale, the sort of scale needed to make it a huge movie. And it was not made by some clueless directors. The Wachowski Brothers are true science fiction geeks (lol, like many of us ^^) who just wanted to portray their vision on the silver screen. And I thank god that they did, as the film was incredibly enjoyable ^^

In the end, there's not much anyone can say against The Matrix. In terms of story, it introduced (or in Dark City's case, developed) an original idea of the future in a science fiction world. It broke boundaries in terms of special effects and CGI (bullet-time?! Infinitely awesome XD), and has succeeded in setting a benchmark for all future science fiction films to be judged by. I am a Matrix fan, people, and I am proud:D

jokemaster
05-26-2003, 03:30 PM
If lexx sees this she's going nuclear

scabb
05-26-2003, 03:33 PM
The Matrix is a simple sci-fi film coupled with some great action scenes, which is why it is popular. Like most of todays blockbusters it shows little character development and the dialogue is often laughable.

The themes and ideas suggested in the Matrix have been about for a while, albeit in a different form. It is not entirely original, it simply takes the concept of us all being "puppets" and adds lots of kung-fu and sunglasses.

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it, and perhaps it was thought-provoking and amazing to those underinvested in philosophy, but It's hardly the most intelligent movie on the block. It's simply mindless action taken to a new level.

The_One
05-26-2003, 04:08 PM
Dark City - it's very true what you said about developing the idea Darklighter - even though you thought you knew what was going on, who saw the ending coming? That is just one of the greatest endings of a film ever. In fact I've got myself so excited, I might grab my old VHS of Dark City ;)

Also, just to clear up, my name is from Babylon 5. Whilst I had that thought in my head, something dawned on me - I don't know if any of you have ever seen Babylon 5 all the way through, but the story of that particular sci-fi series wipes the floor with pretty much every other sci-fi series on television and film. I can only think of a few that rival the scope of B5. Admittedly, you can accomplish a lot more in a series than you can on film - but still, there are many sci-fi films out there that give a great deal in the story telling department. Most of the sci-fi "greats'" book adaptations spring to mind.

Modern sci-fi seems to be written by people who live in Hollywood and know what will sell in bucket loads, without any consideration for thoughtful story telling. *Insert The Matrix*. You may think, "yeah, but The Matrix has a good story idea and lots of hidden symbolism" - but it seems to stop there, far short of what I consider good sci-fi. I challenge you to pick up a book by Philip K Dick, Isaac Asimov, Arthur C Clarke, Alfred Bester or George Orwell and tell me they do not shrink The Matrix to the size of a deformed pea. Matrix: nice idea, but been done before and not executed very well - no way near enough depth. I'm sure if they had sacrificed some of the special effects time and fleshed out and developed the story more I would like it hell of a lot more than I do.

But this is all just opinion. I have been spoiled by brilliant science fiction stories, and The Matrix is just far too bland in my opinion. If you are coming in as a lover of simple screen told sci-fi stories then I'm sure you'll love it. I, on the other hand, don't.

ET Warrior
05-26-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Die Another Day
PS: ET Warrior, Doctor Christmas Jones never says that last quote, and what's stupid about saying "Someone's tampered with the bomb!" when someone really had (Renard removed half of the plutonium)?

Ah, she didn't say the EXACT quote, but when they first show up when Bond is about to kill Reynard, she says SOMETHING like "I talked to him but he's not nuclear physicist" I haven't seen the movie in awhile, and I've not seen it enough to memorize it.

And ALSO, as I said in my post, it's not the actual line itself, it's the way she delivered it. It was probably the most poorly delivered and completely laughable line that I have personally ever heard in a movie theater. NOT joking.
Although that line itself was really stupid, as Bond had JUST said. "Someone's stripped the screws" And she says "Somebody's tampered with the bomb"
No s*** somebody's tampered with the bomb if the screws are stripped.

I watched Die Another Day again last night at the drive in, and there is ONE part that just...REALLY bothers me about it. It would've been a great film if it hadn't been for that part where Bond surfs using a piece of that rocket car and the parachute. The conept itself was stupid, and it looked TERRIBLE.

•-BLaCKouT-•
05-26-2003, 05:03 PM
While I'm not about to start slagging JB, I've got to say that one of the bits about DAD which made me chuckle was the bad guy (my sincere apologies but I can't remember his name).

Firstly he sets up this "Death Star" to fire at the Earth from space, thus ripping off Jedi as well as Austin Powers. Then he's wearing his 'electricity suit' that just stinks of Emperor Palpatine!! :p

And I can't remember the exact line he delivers but it's ridiculously close to "Soon you will see the power of this fully armed and operational battle station".

I take it these references were intentional.

;) B.

BCanr2d2
05-27-2003, 07:04 AM
Obviously alternate thinking isn't your forte then, Die Another Day?

The sad truth about 90% of movies, TV and music is that it made to appeal to the lowest common denominator, made to appeal to the largest possible audience, regardless of quality. What any Bond movie may lack in CGI, it makes up in the use of pyrotechnics and explosions.....

Also many people find it easier to have an idea or image thrown at then, than think when they read a book. Movies have got to a level that there are always scenes relatively pivotal to it that have to be given the flick, since they don't make good watching. For 5 minutes of explanation of the plot, they'd prefer not to have a reviewer write "this part wasn't very good"....


Today's it's quantity over quality, and I pick the Matrix over the flood of formulaic movies that exist. Not every movie I see I dissect to millions of pieces, some are just there as a visual splendour, others have a good story, rarely do they have both.
After all, movies are a visual medium, so they have to appeal visually to those that watch them. If you want more detail, then read a book that has an untold amount of pages to give you the detail, or allow you to get a picture in your head.

Darth Groovy
05-27-2003, 08:03 AM
Drink some of my Blue Milk, get (re)loaded and go see it. It is a big deal, trust me! :cool:

C'jais
05-27-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by scabb
The Matrix is a simple sci-fi film coupled with some great action scenes, which is why it is popular. Like most of todays blockbusters it shows little character development and the dialogue is often laughable.

Most of today's movies show little character development. If you want character development, read a book, or turn off your computer for a while.

Where do you find the dialogue laughable?

The themes and ideas suggested in the Matrix have been about for a while, albeit in a different form. It is not entirely original, it simply takes the concept of us all being "puppets" and adds lots of kung-fu and sunglasses.

Bingo. And that's what make's it so good.

With all those sunglasses, trenchcoats and kung fu, it's almost as if it's trying too hard to be cool. If any other movie did the same thing, we'd call it a rip off now. But the matrix can make these things look cool.

The thing about the Matrix is that has both kung fu and philosophy, and it delivers it in a very stylized way. I can't blame you if you don't want any of that, though.

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it, and perhaps it was thought-provoking and amazing to those underinvested in philosophy, but It's hardly the most intelligent movie on the block. It's simply mindless action taken to a new level.

Right again. The new level is what the crowd wants.

The directors have crammed so many religious and mythical referrences into it that you can spend months just working it out. While you can certainly say it wasn't very thought-provoking to you, the movie does explore some deep philosophical issues. And it does so while looking cool as hell.

Which is why we love it.

Jah Warrior
05-27-2003, 11:42 AM
lol, Die another Day, you have an allie in me mate (btw Bond ROCKS!!!)

Seriously though the peeps on this board turned me off the matrix at least six months ago, there were countless matrix threads - so many that I had made my mind up never to see this new film well before christmas. It was matrix this.. Matrix that... matrix bloody everything and frankly it made a film i could quite possibly have enjoyed an utter annoyance.

It was doing my head in, this was sposed to be a starwars forum?!?! But hardly anyone talks about starwars here...:rolleyes:

For the record:- Die Another Day was a damn good bond film, you gotta love that A M L Vanquish - cooooolness on 4 wheels, and i spose Miranda Frost aint bad either ;)

anyways welcome to the boards fellow bond enthusiast and check out the senate chambers:- theres some wicked threads in there if you like to debate stuff.

Holo-Sidious
05-27-2003, 02:49 PM
Oh, I wish I could have been here from the beginning, but as I've just walked in, I'll have to make up for it in this one post.

ET Warrior -
Ah, ET Warrior, you always did have a knack for rubbing people up the wrong way. Doctor Christmas Jones was a well-acted, well-thought out Bond girl, and a credit to The World Is Not Enough. As for the kite surfing scene in Die Another Day, the computer graphics HAD to be used because it was impossible to actually film something on that scale, plus it was an interesting and fun way of escaping an impossible situation.

BLaCKouT_1138 -
I've never heard of you, but you just seem to have misread the villain of Die Another Day - the chilling Sir Gustav Graves, or more commonly known as Colonel Tan Sun Moon of the North Korean military. Firstly, if anyone has ripped-off the idea of putting a giant laser in space, it's George Lucas. The Bond film Diamonds Are Forever, which featured Blofelt's large satellite created of diamonds blasting missile sites on Earth with a laser beam, came out years before Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope and the Death Star did. This was another 40th Aniversary easter egg contained within the 20th Bond film... not a rip-off of Star Wars or Austin Powers, which we must all remember is a James Bond spoof. As for the line "Now you will see the true power of 'Icarus'!" uttered by Graves as he targets Bond, this is meerly emphasising the fact that Graves managed to get 'Icarus' into space because it isn't just a laser: it's an artificial sun which hides the true function... the laser.

Jah Warrior -
What does A M L stand for? I'm guessing 'Aston Martin Lagonda', correct? The company name is just simply Aston Martin when placed before the name of a car type, so you should realy type 'Aston Martin V12 Vanquish' instead. Just a little helpful hint to prevent otherwise confusing mistakes.

Die Another Day -
What can I say? A man after my own heart! Aside from being one of the biggest Star Wars fans in Great Britain, I absolutely love James Bond films, and I thought that Die Another Day was brilliant. As for your stance on The Matrix, this is where I must beg to differ: those films are near-perfect in every department, and deserve every bit of hype and exitement that they are getting from the world. They are the next generation of science fiction tales, and the only good science fiction film series to look forward to apart from the upcoming Star Wars - Episode III. Everything else died a long time ago... in a galaxy far, far away (apologies for the pun, but I had to). A round of aplause for The Matrix Reloaded!

The_One -
I must congratulate you on being a man of reading! It's amazing that people can still find those authors you mentioned enlightening in this day and age, when everyone is surrounded by mindless computer games and action films. Continue reading, and well done!

I really must go now, but remember...


I am always watching.
:holosid:

Jah Warrior
05-27-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Holo-Sidious
What does A M L stand for? I'm guessing 'Aston Martin Lagonda', correct? The company name is just simply Aston Martin when placed before the name of a car type, so you should realy type 'Aston Martin V12 Vanquish' instead. Just a little helpful hint to prevent otherwise confusing mistakes.


well excuuuuuuse me!!:D

ET Warrior
05-27-2003, 03:08 PM
Well, well, well, if it isn't Holo-Sidious. Haven't seen you in AGES.

I'm really not sure how you can say that Denise Richards was a talented actress. She delivers her lines with all the conviction and certainty of a dead fish. TERRIBLE

And i know they had to use the CG for that part in DAD, but they shouldn't have put that part in. It was so ridiculously stupid they would have been better served to have James grow wings and fly away.




But then again, you've always been a big bond fan, what with your OTHER accounts, like Commander Bond, Golden Gun, you're a silly guy holo-sid

Darth Eggplant
05-27-2003, 03:31 PM
People They are Just Movies!

well...well...well what a tempest in a UK tea cup.
I grew up watching Bond movies still do. I saw the last one.
and comparing movies of different gendres is like apple\orange.

I have seen all the bonds including David Niven\Peter Sellers one.
George, Rodger, Dalton, the guy now can't remeber his name
Remington Steel guy. anyhow they are fun, good stunts but you know what your getting. bond always triumphs evil is banquished bond has sex. etc. really not too taxing on the brains synapsis.
also nowhere near realisticc as to spy industry now, then or ever. good documentary on Ian Flemming once shows what real spy stuff was.

I like Sean Connery as bond. did not mind timothy dalton or george lazenby. like new guy can't remeber name it is embarrasing. however...

spy and sci-fi not the same pidgeon

and bond is recycled. (badly sorry to say)
not in bad way but in honest way

all cars have rockets and stuff
all bad guys always tell you their fiendish plots
all evil women sleep with bond
all good girls sleep with bond
bond plays bacarak
bond drinks martini
(never anything else)
bonds flirts with money penny
money penny has wet dreams about bond
Q say funny things
Q gives equipment bond breaks it
bond shows no respect for instructions
etc....
diamonds are forever deadly space thingy
golden eye deadly space thingy
moonraker different deadly space thingy
this latest one deadly space thingy
and russians bad
rusians bad
ooo new enimies evil korea and arabs bad
*but working along side russians no doubt*

now the Matrix I like it A LOT
but if someone hates it I won't go ga wa fa over it.
you don't like it you don't like it
it isn't realistic fine
Neo is a geek fine
Trinity isn't hot....
well those are fighting words:D

anyhow Matrix fans beware one day Matrix
may suffer worse fate than Bond ever did.
bond got turned into austin powers
bad sequel movies
maybe we will be seeing
or our kids Matrix Mouse
on the disney channel.

so chill one and all it was a question.
I like matrix so much that I let it stand alone
it doesn't need me to defend it.
Bond is Bond like it love it
just don't get too carried away over it.

•-BLaCKouT-•
05-27-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Holo-Sidious
BLaCKouT_1138 -
I've never heard of you, but you just seem to have misread the villain of Die Another Day - the chilling Sir Gustav Graves, or more commonly known as Colonel Tan Sun Moon of the North Korean military. Firstly, if anyone has ripped-off the idea of putting a giant laser in space, it's George Lucas. The Bond film Diamonds Are Forever, which featured Blofelt's large satellite created of diamonds blasting missile sites on Earth with a laser beam, came out years before Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope and the Death Star did. This was another 40th Aniversary easter egg contained within the 20th Bond film... not a rip-off of Star Wars or Austin Powers, which we must all remember is a James Bond spoof. As for the line "Now you will see the true power of 'Icarus'!" uttered by Graves as he targets Bond, this is meerly emphasising the fact that Graves managed to get 'Icarus' into space because it isn't just a laser: it's an artificial sun which hides the true function... the laser.

Yeah alright mate, :p I'll give you that one, and I stand corrected. Obviously, I didn't know those details.
I wasn't making a harsh criticism as such, it's just something that made me chuckle as I was watching the film (in the cinema I might add, I don't hate these films you know!).

And yes, I know that Austin Powers is a very blatant pi**-take of JB, that's what made that aspect of it even more amusing. ;)

I'd also like to state one more time that I didn't enter this thread to slag JB off, I came to try and justify the Matrix. Something that not many people have chosen to do unfortunately. Tch.

Peace out, :D
B.

EDIT: Listen to Eggplant! He knows what he's talking about.

Jubatus
05-28-2003, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by Die Another Day
"The Matrix" may well be science fiction, but it's still set in this time period.

Erm, no; Morpheus already tells Neo this in the first movie. He's not sure about the exact date, but approximates it to about 200 years from now.

But that really is irrelevant, because if our world today in 2003 was a computersimulation then the point of technological capability in the illusion that is the Matrix need not have any relation with the capability of the real world...In the real world the first microchip could have been made in 1803. The machines could plant any version of world history they wanted to into the Matrix program.

As for the idea of the world being a grand virtual reality being too far fetched? Prove to me that it isn't so. And if you're gonna argue that you KNOW it's real because you FEEL it, then answer me this: How do you know what REAL feelings are like if your whole life experience with them all were machinemade?

The idea of creating virtual realities that comply to all your senses, not just visually and audibly, is far from farfetched. What you simply do is pluck in an input/output signal carrier into direct connection with you central nervous system and sense faculties of the brain, so that all outgoing and ingoing signal to and from your brain goes to and comes from the computer simulation instead of to your body parts. What you need in order to make the simulation 'real' is a program that can translate these signals both ways and the processing power to keep it as virtually real to the subject as possible. Morpheus isn't lying when he says, that what we perceive with all 5 senses are electrical signals interpreted by our brains.

The_One
05-28-2003, 08:14 AM
Oh please...do we really have to get into a philsophical debate over what "real" is?

You can debate this forever - but I think the way Dark City pulls it off is far more clever than The Matrix's interpretation. The idea of it being a computer program is a bit of a cop out, as you can easily explain everything. Whereas in Dark City, the whole film is a quest to find out what this "reality" is - and boy is the ending great ;)

C'jais
05-28-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by The_One
Whereas in The Matrix, the whole film is a quest to find out what this "reality" is - and boy is the ending great ;)

Yeah, my sentiments exactly.

toms
05-28-2003, 02:07 PM
my opinion, for what it's worth:
6/10
Rather disappointing, quite long and dull in places. Special effects were very good, but the action scenes never really seemed that exciting, and there was definately nothing to match the classic matrix moments like the lobby scene, or the slow mo helicopter crash.
There was more plot and less action than i expected, but the plot didn't make much sense, there was almost no movement, no character development and many of the new characters weren't explained at all.
Oh, and the ending sucked... i guess it leads on to the next one, but hardly a thrilling cliffhanger or anything.
Some good bits, but not as good as x-men 2.

oh, and i liked the original, even if i didn't think it was the all time classic everyone on the net seems to think it was.

Die another day, hmm, the first half was one of the best bond films for years... about half way through it started to morph into a sucky generic hollywood action film with terrible sfx and i actually came out of the cinema thinking it sucked. in hindsight it wasn't that bad, but i really hope they don't make the next one the same CGI generic mess and bring back the cool stunts.

ET Warrior
05-28-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Yeah, my sentiments exactly.

I agree with Jais on this one......The Matrix DOES have an amazing ending.........:D

Die Another Day
05-28-2003, 04:59 PM
My word... whoever you are, Holo-Sidious, you can come and argue for me anyday! Although you like "The Matrix": big mistake! Ah well, each to their own, eh?

Alright, toms, almost every single stunt in "Die Another Day" was done for real. The only CGI one was that infamous kite surfing scene that ET Warrior seems to hate so much. The second half sucked? So you're saying the car chase on ice (and inside the Ice Palace) sucked, and the sword fight between Bond girls on the Antonov sucked, and the way in which Bond finally killed Graves/Moon sucked? Fair enough, but I thought they were some of the strongest points in "Die Another Day".

Oh, and Darth Eggplant, in three films Roger Moore drinks burbon, not Vodka Martini's, and 007 frequently enjoys champaign as well. And I can't remember Bond himself playing any type of card game in the last three films (Elektra King plays blackjack in "The World Is Not Enough", but that's it).

Anyway, I feel this has spiralled downwards into a large argument over the Bond franchise and "The Matrix" and it's huge popularity with some people. I just wanted to know why people loved "The Matrix" so much... ah well.

See ya round, guys. Time for me to drive off into the sunset behind the wheel of my invisible Aston Martin with my tongue down a Bond girl's throat (I wish). Have fun...

HertogJan
05-28-2003, 05:31 PM
I'm a bond fan but DAD (die another day ;)) was way over the top... Critics have allways said that the special effects became more important than the plot and blah blah blah, but I agree on them when they say DAD was too much...

And Aston Marton Vanish, *sigh*

toms
05-29-2003, 03:02 PM
Im a huge bond fan. Lets put it this way, this is the first film i haven't run out and bought on video/dvd the day it came out.

I thought the opening sequence rocked, the bad girl and the main villains were quite cool and the plot was pretty good. The swordfight between bond and graves was brilliant.
Then about half way it morphed into a bad XXX copy. Stupid invisible car that didn't make sense and was used in a stupid way, halle berry as a really limp Wai-lin rip off who couldn't be a tough cia agent if her life depended on it, bad cgi (halle diving backwards off cliff, kite surfing, plane disintegrating), silly sci-fi elements that took away from the usual bond realism (some form of silly robotic glove, full vr simulator, invisible car), a good fight between bond and graves that had to be intercut with a pointless (matrix rip off) fight between the girls, a bad cgi plane that took about 12 hours to disintegrate and crash. Worst of all, no use whatsoever for moneypenny except to completely distroy the relationship between her and bond for the sake of a silly joke.

Bond for 12 year old maerican boys...:rolleyes:


As for the matrix.... i guess if you gave me a big budget and told me to make the ultimate "cool" movie i would have had john woo style slomo gunfights, black leather, hong kong style fights, terminator/anime style scifi plot and a propellorheads/rage soundtrack.
in fact, i would probably have made the matrix (except maybe without keanu)....
it is a compilation of all the cool bits from other films (a bit like goldeneye was for bond movies) so it isn't suprising people thought it was cool and amazing.

I just think it isnt quite as cool and amazing and original as people who haven't seen the source material (john woo, jet li, anime etc...) seem to think it is.

C'jais
05-29-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by toms
Special effects were very good, but the action scenes never really seemed that exciting, and there was definately nothing to match the classic matrix moments like the lobby scene, or the slow mo helicopter crash.

Ehhhh...

You mean, like the slow motion truck crash? Or the "Morpheus cuts car with katana and blasts its underside"? Or the whole chateau fight? I'll give you that the smith fight dragged on a wee bit too much, but it was still immensely exciting, and you can easily compare the aforementioned scenes with anything Matrix 1 has to offer. In fact, the first Matrix had way less action than this, it was just spread over the whole film instead of having concentrated dialogues and fights.



but the plot didn't make much sense

Most people who say this didn't get it. It took me a while to get it as well. If anyone wants, I can get you the whole Architect dialogue.

there was almost no movement

Plot movement?

no character development

Exactly the same can be said for Matrix 1 and X-men 2.

and many of the new characters weren't explained at all.

Morpheus wasn't explained in Matrix 1. Neither was Trinity, or the Oracle. Or Smith.

In Matrix 2, OTOH, they actually went to great lengths to cut it out for us.

Oh, and the ending sucked... i guess it leads on to the next one, but hardly a thrilling cliffhanger or anything.

Debatable as anything else, but I thought it rocked.

Some good bits, but not as good as x-men 2.

Xmen2... Meh.

That movie's action sequences was nowhere near even the first Matrix, the plot was a big joke, and the characters were lame stereotypes and didn't make me care for them at all.

oh, and i liked the original, even if i didn't think it was the all time classic everyone on the net seems to think it was.

No, on that you're right. Starwars isn't such a great trilogy either, yet many people think it is. All the effect of having a huge, rabid fan culture around them.

Die another day, hmm, the first half was one of the best bond films for years... about half way through it started to morph into a sucky generic hollywood action film with terrible sfx and i actually came out of the cinema thinking it sucked. in hindsight it wasn't that bad, but i really hope they don't make the next one the same CGI generic mess and bring back the cool stunts.

Bond films..... Blegh.

Talk about movies with no original plots and recycled characters.

HertogJan
05-29-2003, 04:02 PM
I think Reloaded was a great movie, but agree that the scenes in reloaded weren't as great as some of the matrix scenes. The lobby scene is probably my all-time favorite and I think the fights in Reloaded were a bit too rapid, where the scenes in Zion were boooooring...

C'jais
05-29-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
I think the fights in Reloaded were a bit too rapid

...and by this you mean they were really hectic, because they sure as hell weren't short.

scabb
05-29-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Most of today's movies show little character development. If you want character development, read a book, or turn off your computer for a while.

Where do you find the dialogue laughable?

First of all, I haven't slated the Matrix in the way that others have. I like mindless action (read: Films such as "The Matrix") at times, but I also enjoy more intelligent movies. There are plenty of films out there with more worthwhile stories and excellent character development, try anything from the Coens for instance.

As for where I find the dialogue laughable.. well, I don't know where to begin. The terrible speech by Morpheus, Neo attempting to have a conversation with anybody - I see absolutely no personality or depth in the Matrix.

My argument wasn't against the Matrix itself, but more against the cult that worships every single element of this overtwisted and surprisingly unclever film. I just don't think this film deserves the amount of praise it has received, because at the end of the day it's a pretty simplistic blockbuster. And no, I am not just knocking it because that would be the "cool" thing to do.

Also, please don't quote every single point I have made above. I am aware of your opinions, I was just clarifying mine. ¬

ET Warrior
05-29-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by scabb
Also, please don't quote every single point I have made above. I am aware of your opinions, I was just clarifying mine. ¬

First of all, I haven't slated the Matrix in the way that others have. I like mindless action (read: Films such as "The Matrix") at times, but I also enjoy more intelligent movies. There are plenty of films out there with more worthwhile stories and excellent character development, try anything from the Coens for instance.
As for where I find the dialogue laughable.. well, I don't know where to begin. The terrible speech by Morpheus, Neo attempting to have a conversation with anybody - I see absolutely no personality or depth in the Matrix.
My argument wasn't against the Matrix itself, but more against the cult that worships every single element of this overtwisted and surprisingly unclever film. I just don't think this film deserves the amount of praise it has received, because at the end of the day it's a pretty simplistic blockbuster. And no, I am not just knocking it because that would be the "cool" thing to do.



Sorry....I had to do it.

Anyways, I personally think that the big deal about the Matrix, is the fact that it IS just. Plain. cool, as was mentioned before. It has Kung-fu, Computers, guns, explosions, sentient robots, a big war, sentient programs, like, everything that appeals to nerds on a wolrdwide scale is what these movies are all about. Add to that a very intriguing idea and story line...and.WHAM. Insant Nerd fan-base.

The_One
05-29-2003, 09:16 PM
Well, I don't particularly like Die Another Day OR The Matrix :p

So I guess I'm in an extremely small minority ;)

Darth Eggplant
05-30-2003, 01:18 PM
I actually have all the bond film's save the newest one on video. I hope that Die Another Day won't leave the forum here, we're all just saying stuff. please come back Die Another Day, Darth Groovy will present you with a six pack of Blue Milk if you do.:)

C'jais
05-30-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by scabb
Also, please don't quote every single point I have made above. I am aware of your opinions, I was just clarifying mine. ¬

Sure, no problem.

Neo is a bad actor, and the film has been hyped to death for many by the rabid fans, yes - but this simplistic blockbuster is still leagues above the rest of the action genre.

Once you start digging at the plot, the composition and all the little clues the directors have placed, I hope you'll at least think it's more cool than most of the action trash available.

If not, please recommend me some action movies you think are good.

And yes, the Coens are good.

toms
05-30-2003, 02:01 PM
actually, i thought the "morpheus cuts car with katana" bit was the only really really cool bit. (why didn't the ghosts just turn etherial when the truck exploded though?)

I know there was much more action scenes in reloaded, with better effects, but they didn't seem as exciting or Iconic as the ones in the matrix (like the lobby scene).

The smith fight was good, but it definately began to drag. The stairwell fight was pretty boring and unoriginal, and why after seeing neo fly, stop bullets and fight off 100 smiths would 5 or 6 guys with old weapons cause him any trouble? Maybe if they had had that fight first, THEN the smith one.

The freeway scene was pretty good (if again possibly a bit long), but just because the effects were good doesn't mean it was hugely exciting. i've seen jackie chan do more exciting things with a bucket :D

The french guy, his wife etc... were the main motivationless characters that annoyed me. Unless they become more important in the next one it seemed like an odd sidetrack away from the zion vs mainframe conflict.

I liked the was neo looked confused by everyone asking for his help, nice characterisation there, but most of the other zion scenes were a bit dull, and some of the speeches were very cheesy.

if it had ended...
with trinity dying, or about to die
then it would have been quite cool
but then it seemed like there were about 3 more scenes after that, each more tacked on than the last... and the final ending of
oh, it all got destroyed but only the bad guy survived
just seemed a bit of a letdown.

still, about 2/3 way through i started to like the whole matrix within a matrix idea

i bet there is a real Cult of the Matrix somewhere...

jokemaster
05-30-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by toms
actually, i thought the "morpheus cuts car with katana" bit was the only really really cool bit. (why didn't the ghosts just turn etherial when the truck exploded though?)
they did. You have to look closer

C'jais
05-30-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by toms
The stairwell fight was pretty boring and unoriginal, and why after seeing neo fly, stop bullets and fight off 100 smiths would 5 or 6 guys with old weapons cause him any trouble? Maybe if they had had that fight first, THEN the smith one.

If you should see it again, you'll hopefully notice that the guys he fought weren't just normal people. Notice that they have a hard time bleeding, for example ;)

The french guy, his wife etc... were the main motivationless characters that annoyed me. Unless they become more important in the next one it seemed like an odd sidetrack away from the zion vs mainframe conflict.

I loved the french guy (no, not the long showers-way), and I definately think we'll see more of him in the next installment.

Persephone might even be fabled mother of the matrix.

I liked the was neo looked confused by everyone asking for his help, nice characterisation there

Keanu generally has a hard time looking anything but confused :)


with trinity dying, or about to die
then it would have been quite cool

It did.

but then it seemed like there were about 3 more scenes after that, each more tacked on than the last... and the final ending of
oh, it all got destroyed but only the bad guy survived
just seemed a bit of a letdown.

It didn't end like that.

still, about 2/3 way through i started to like the whole matrix within a matrix idea

I'm not too keen on that idea, and there's plenty of logical proof for why that's not gonna happen.

Then again, the directors might make us stare at the next movie, bended over, and take us from behind with some overwhelming surprise.

i bet there is a real Cult of the Matrix somewhere...

No doubt. Many people genuinely believe in the matrix idea like some kind of religion.

ET Warrior
05-30-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Persephone might even be fabled mother of the matrix.

I like the idea that she is the mother of the matrix.......I like that idea a lot. And that might lead to an explanation of WHY she likes kissing people so much. (The people who've played Enter the Matrix through with niobe AND ghost know what i'm talking about!!!)





Then again, the directors might make us stare at the next movie, bended over, and take us from behind with some overwhelming surprise.

I like that analogy.........a lot :p :D

Quotation
05-31-2003, 10:12 PM
A little late, but, in regard to the initial post...

http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_img/reloaded_37.jpg

This forum is older than you know.

I prefer counting from the emergence of one blind conclusion-drawing thread to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the 20th thread.


(Sorry if anyone's offended, couldn't resist. Thanks to neil_j for this one...:P)

HertogJan
06-01-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
I like the idea that she is the mother of the matrix.......I like that idea a lot. And that might lead to an explanation of WHY she likes kissing people so much.

Well... Maybe she just likes kissing because almost everyone does?? :D Hey if I were in her position, I'd ask trinity to kiss me too!! Gotta love the catsuit *roar* ;)

ET Warrior
06-01-2003, 08:13 PM
Bah, I find Trinity to be Rather UN-attractive. If I were persephone I would try to get.........MYSELF to kiss myself. Because Persephone is really hot.

HertogJan
06-02-2003, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Bah, I find Trinity to be Rather UN-attractive. If I were persephone I would try to get.........MYSELF to kiss myself. Because Persephone is really hot.

Well you're right, but I had to give an example to illustrate my opinion ;)

toms
06-02-2003, 11:57 AM
i got that those guys on the stairwell weren't normal... but then on the other hand they didn't seen to have any interesting abilities or powers (like agents or the ghost guys) so it was a pretty boring fight scene.

I think i have put my finger on why i didn't find the fight scenes as exciting as the first one (apart from them all being too long). In the original film there was a feeling that any human who took on an agent was going to get his ass kicked... and therefore a feeling of danger and excitement. In this one everyone seems to be near enough invunerable, neo never seems to get worried and throws around smiths like they are nothing, morpheus and trinity no longer seem intimidated by agents. Fights where no-one is going to get hurt aren't that exciting.

Ok, so if the ghost twins turned etherial, how come they didn't keep coming after morpheus?

Ok, everyone seems to agree that persephone is hot, but who IS she and what does she want? Personally i have no idea. I have no real idea who the french guy is (and can't even remember his name) even if he seemed to be fun. What are his motivations? We have no real idea of who the architect is or her motivatiosn, no idea about the Oracle, or her bodyguard, no idea about smith, no idea about that kid who loves neo, etc... etc... etc...
Now i like films with mysterious character and plot twists, but they have basically set up a scenario where anyone could be anything... hardly clever or fun. What it does do i guess however is allow everyone to have their own idea about what will happen. But personally it seems that they have left the options SO open that whatever happens won't be a suprise.

I've been looking around the web, and it seems this discussion is repeated in an infinite number of places, with the world being split about 50/50 into those who thought it was an amazing 10/10 film (and either liked the architects speech cos they think they understood it and it makes them feel clever, or because they didn't so it must be clever) and those who thought it was about a 6/10, dragged a bit, was a bit confused (or confusing) and was fairly disappointing.

maybe this discussion is what they were aiming for, but there is now about 50% less people who will be eagerly awaiting the next one, and they will have to actually make something credible of all these threads they have created.


with trinity dying, or about to die then it would have been quite cool
It did.
no it didn't.
neo saved her instantly, negating any sort of exciting, moving ending. then they carried on

ok, so zion WASN'T destroyed (my mistake), but looking around to check on this it seems a lot of people made the same mistake. :o

ET Warrior
06-02-2003, 02:16 PM
It seems that you and I have a difference of opinion on what makes something exciting......

To ME, it's exciting when a LOT of people are fighting with martial arts and the good guy is DE-stroying them, and adding cool weapons into the mix, just makes it even cooler!!!

Did anyone else almost shout for joy when Neo Force-pulled those two...dagger-esque weapons whose names elude me.... to him?

and either liked the architects speech cos they think they understood it and it makes them feel clever, or because they didn't so it must be clever
Or perhaps we understood it and realized that it was, in fact, a very new and unexpected plot twist that was really exciting to us?
In this one everyone seems to be near enough invunerable, neo never seems to get worried and throws around smiths like they are nothing, morpheus and trinity no longer seem intimidated by agents.
Perhaps you missed the scene towards the end when Trinity got MESSED up by an agent, and dove out of a 20th story window to try and escape him? She was only saved by Neo. (Did anyone else almost scream for joy AGAIN when he was flying so fast the vacuum he created blew out the windows of buildings?)

Or perhaps the scene where Morpheus, who we know has already taken on Agent Smith, fought an agent and had it not been for Niobe in a car following the Semi....HE would have died.

It's not a matter of them not being afraid, it's more a matter of necessity. Morpheus HAD to protect the Keymaker, so he HAD to fight Agent Thompson (that was agent thompson, right?) Trinity was stuck in a hallway with the agent and also had no choice but to ATTEMPT to fight her way out of it, she had nowhere to run.


Also, at the beginning when Neo first fought the agents, everybody BUT Neo ran away, because they fear agents.