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obikin
06-04-2003, 08:32 PM
I swear to god, if the damage system is like the current one of JKII i will go on a killing spree. The damage system needs to be alot higher so it doesn't take so many hits to kill someone, i mean, you're hitting them with a LIGHTSABER. Atleast make it like this.

Blue: 60
yellow: 90
red: 100

or something similar, maybe not as high as i would prefer but something good, not this blue:25 yellow:30 red:60 bull****, god.

Master_Payne
06-04-2003, 09:35 PM
And if they didn't and the damage is the same as JO, I hope they keep g_SaberDamageScale.
with that sabers can do up to: blue 75, yellow 90 and red 180.

Toa Tahu
06-05-2003, 06:21 AM
No.As you said,obikin,you're hitting them with a lightsaber.Therefore,no matter how strong your swing,what counts in the end of the day is the power/intensity of the saber.Therefore,each stance(I hope they get rid of that stance-crap thing,it's horrible balanced in JO) should deal equal damage.

Silent_Thunder
06-05-2003, 06:42 AM
I like the stance idea, but I thought the way each stance was portrayed was really rediculas.

I mean, seriously... swinging the saber SLOWLY is going to give me MORE damage... come one!

Also, the heavy stance it the only stance worhtwhile in JKII since its the only one that does decent damage... But that forces all real saber battles to be more like random jousting contests... and really slow ones at that. I also hated the fact that heavy swings were almost impossible to block. Not to mention the fact that they look absolutely nothing like saber combat in movies (but light and yellow stance do!).

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind if they combined all the different moves from each stance and combinated it into one but then just gave 3-5 levels of power.

For each level of power the swings would be exactly the same speed, and chance of being blocked, but the recovery would be slower. So a level 1 power would be able to chain attacks instantly with smaller damage, and a level 5 would do much more damage (while still swinging the saber QUICKLY) but have no ability to chain attacks. That way the higher levels would rely more on skill to inflict more damage, instead of randomly swinging in all directions. The logic behind this system would be that the increased damage comes from the accuracy of the strikes which is caused by the pause between swings.

BloodRiot
06-05-2003, 11:39 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again... saber stances are a definite yes... just not like they are in JO.

All saber stances should deal the same damage and be fairly equal in terms of speed as well... the big diference should be in the style of fighting... allowing people to choose their style.

Think of a martial arts game... one can choose a guy that fights Karate, while the other fights Aikido and the other goes muai thai... diferent fighting styles... now forget martial arts and apply that to saber combat.

That's my opinion regarding the stances... the balance washorrible in JO and raven should send out a new patch with only red stance cuz it seemed like everyone jsut used that one anyway.

Prime
06-05-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by BloodRiot
All saber stances should deal the same damage and be fairly equal in terms of speed as well... I disagree. Just tapping someone with a lightsaber should not do the same damage as chopping through them as hard as you can. The damage should definitely be greater in general, but there should be different damages for each stance. Blue stance is supposed to be quick strikes with not much power, and red stance is supposed to be a swing with all your strength. The lightsaber does meet with some resistance when it comes into contact with something (granted not a lot). So hitting something with more power (red) means you would penetrate further, thus dealing more damage.

Originally posted by BloodRiot
That's my opinion regarding the stances... Opinions are always welcome :)

Originally posted by BloodRiot
the balance washorrible in JO In regards to stances? I don't think so. Each of them had their uses, and each had drawbacks. I use a mix of all three, depending on the situation. People can win using any of the stances.

Originally posted by BloodRiot
raven should send out a new patch with only red stance cuz it seemed like everyone just used that one anyway. I don't think this is the case. Everyone has a different style, and red is popular, but certainly it isn't used exclusively. Having only red stance would be aweful.

BloodRiot
06-05-2003, 12:51 PM
the new red stance onlyaptch comment was an exageration...notto be taken literally.

Well prime.. we agree on the same thing.. i think we just got a lil missunderstood.

lemme clarify...

yes the saber should deal more damage with more strangth put into the swing... that i agree... what i dont agree is that the ammount of strength is defined by the stances.

Like the amount ofstrength could be defined within each stance giving them all the same potential and the same max strength...

one solution would be creating moveswithin each stance that wouldbe more or less powerfull than others.. but then the spamming would just be as bad...so instead thinkof a system that would make every move have diferent strength levels... something like... the longer you pressand hold the mouse attack button, the more strength will be putin the swing... whilea quick tap would just make a quick unpowerfull swing... the more strength, the longerthe attack recovery time and more open you leave yourself for attack.

now think that all saber stances use this system with simply diferent moves... one stance is pretty straight froward for instance while the other is flashier.

granted it reduces the stances to a merely aesthetical function... but at least everyone could use them and have the same base chance of winningagainst anyone else using any of the stances.

well..that's just my opinion on the matter... it's not like thisis gonna be what we'll end upseeing in JA.

well... as you said..everyone has opinions :)

Cheers.

StormHammer
06-05-2003, 12:56 PM
I hardly ever use Red stance. I alternate between Blue and Yellow...and I never turn my back on an opponent. I can see if they are using Red stance...and I usually have time to dodge or roll away when they launch an attack at me.

Anyway, I too think that the stances should just be personal preferences in styles of play, and the saber damage should be equalised between them. Where I think they should differ is simply in terms of strength of blows. So if you try to deflect a Red stance attack using Yellow, you should get knocked back because your opponent has delivered a powerful blow. That places you at a momentary disadvantage...but the benefit of Yellow is a faster response, so you could potentially recover more quickly.

That's how I view it. The stances should give you an advantage in the way they are used, while the saber damage remains constant. Personally, I'd make the saber damage about 25 per hit, so if you get hit 4 times (with just 100 health) you go down.

If you have shields, then the shields should take the brunt of the damage (say get reduced by 25), and then have a lower hit damage for health, say 15 per hit.

But that's just me. I don't think 1-hit kills would be any fun at all.

Prime
06-05-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
But that's just me. I don't think 1-hit kills would be any fun at all. Probably not, but 10 hit kills aren't all that much fun either :)

I understand you now, BloodRiot, and it is an interesting idea. :) I still prefer the different damages for the different stances, mainly for simplicity's sake. However, I do not like that the red stance swing is so slow. It just doesn't look right in terms of delivering the most power.

What I would like to see is a big windup (sort of like there is now) and then a much quicker follow through. This would still provide the disadvantage of leaving yourself open momentarily, but it would make things look better physically.

Spider AL
06-05-2003, 01:39 PM
Probably not, but 10 hit kills aren't all that much fun eitherPossibly true, but the more hits it takes to kill an opponent, the less luck is involved in winning the match, and the less the game will favour mad spinning sabre slashers. I'd say JO was pretty well balanced in terms of sabre combat at the point of 1.04, at an average of three-five hits to take out a foe, for me.

Bearing in mind, I don't care about enjoyment as much as some people. That's just me. I understand that some people just want some snappy, fun duelling, and less hits to kill might favour them. I don't believe it's worth sacrificing the competitive edge of the game to cater for them, though.

toms
06-05-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I disagree. Just tapping someone with a lightsaber should not do the same damage as chopping through them as hard as you can. The damage should definitely be greater in general, but there should be different damages for each stance. Blue stance is supposed to be quick strikes with not much power, and red stance is supposed to be a swing with all your strength. The lightsaber does meet with some resistance when it comes into contact with something (granted not a lot). So hitting something with more power (red) means you would penetrate further, thus dealing more damage.



i think this was how it was supposed to work, with the lighter stances representing (for example) the sort of moves that Count Dooku did to Obiwan in Ep2.

The problem is that the saber doesn't stop when it comes into contact with "flesh" in JO, it clips straight through it. And when graphically all styles appear to show the saber slicing through flesh it seems logical that all styles should do the same amount of damage. They either need to fix the animations/clipping or they need to make the styles do equal damage. Otherwise it looks wrong. :(

Personnally i was highly unimpressed by the styles in Single Player JO, and then didn't ever really do much Multiplayer. The whole collision detection and blocking seemed really random to me, so i didn't like it and therefore didn't put a lot of time into learning it. maybe it would have been better if i put a lot of effort in, but it didn't appear that way. :(

I'd also make the strikes the same power, with the differences being in speed, recovery time and defensive abilities.

Light: Quick, chainable attacks. Quick reset to block. Weak Blocks.
Medium: Medium speed, part chainable attacks, Medium block.
Heavy: Slow, none chainable attacks, Slow to reset. Strong Block.

might fix it a bit.

----

If you think about it, proper fighting should involve a mix of slow powerful moves and quick, less powerful ones depending on the moment.... but by splitting them into styles you are kind of limited to one type, which makes it very hard to mix and match. :(

if i got to do it i would allow you to choose a new move every level or so, from a selection of the 3 styles. SO you could mix and match, have a Red overhead slash, a blue sideways slash and a yellow normal attack.

Also, maybe you should have to put points into EACH STYLE when you create your character, so they might be 3* Red, 2*Blue and no star Yellow (cant use)

Spider AL
06-05-2003, 01:44 PM
Also, maybe you should have to put points into EACH STYLE when you create your character, so they might be 3* Red, 2*Blue and no star Yellow (cant use)Ahh that's a suggestion I heard back in the day of 1.03... It's an excellent one. I back that.

StormHammer
06-05-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Probably not, but 10 hit kills aren't all that much fun either :)

I agree...but using the damage model I suggested above it would take 6 hits to kill someone with 100 health and 100 shields.

The first 4 hits would strip away your shields and leave you with 40 health. The next 2 blows would kill you. This assumes you don't use Force Heal or run for bacta/shields, of course. So yes, maybe the damage could go up another notch by taking those things into account. If it's 2 hits and you're dead, that would be silly. As it stands in JO it is also silly because you have to hit an opponent too many times with anything but the Red stance. 5 hit kills sounds more reasonable to me, when taking shields into consideration.

toms...I like your ideas. ;)

Prime
06-05-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Possibly true, but the more hits it takes to kill an opponent, the less luck is involved in winning the match, and the less the game will favour mad spinning sabre slashers. I'd say JO was pretty well balanced in terms of sabre combat at the point of 1.04, at an average of three-five hits to take out a foe, for me. I agree that 1.04 is quite good, and I was exaggerating a bit :) However, although it was a long time ago, I seem to remember being happier with the lightsaber damage in 1.02 (a bit more, I believe). But that was a long time ago, so maybe I have it wrong.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Bearing in mind, I don't care about enjoyment as much as some people. That's just me. I understand that some people just want some snappy, fun duelling, and less hits to kill might favour them. I don't believe it's worth sacrificing the competitive edge of the game to cater for them, though. I know you don't, so I'm glad you are not working for Raven. :D I am not quite as competative as you and others of your "ilk", and I do play more for the enjoyment of Star Wars than just racking up kills. However, I do also enjoy the competative aspects, and want the MP game to provide a good "playing field". I would like to see a bit more lightsaber damage, so that something like two red hits would be enough for a kill (as an example). My beef is mainly with FFA, where I feel a lightsaber should be just as quick a kill at close range as the powerful guns are at longer ranges. I do find Duels to be quite good the way they are now.

Originally posted by toms
The problem is that the saber doesn't stop when it comes into contact with "flesh" in JO, it clips straight through it. And when graphically all styles appear to show the saber slicing through flesh it seems logical that all styles should do the same amount of damage. They either need to fix the animations/clipping or they need to make the styles do equal damage. Otherwise it looks wrong. I agree these animations could be better, and would go a long way to making the lightsaber combat more "realistic" looking.

Originally posted by toms
Personnally i was highly unimpressed by the styles in Single Player JO, and then didn't ever really do much Multiplayer. The whole collision detection and blocking seemed really random to me, so i didn't like it and therefore didn't put a lot of time into learning it. maybe it would have been better if i put a lot of effort in, but it didn't appear that way. I loved the lightsaber combat in SP, although I know what you are saying. I found learning the moves in SP to be fun, and fighting the Reborn to be a blast. For me Raven delivered on fun lightsaber combat.

But again, it just seem to cater to my tastes :) Others milage may vary.

Spider AL
06-06-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Prime:

I would like to see a bit more lightsaber damage, so that something like two red hits would be enough for a kill (as an example). My beef is mainly with FFA, where I feel a lightsaber should be just as quick a kill at close range as the powerful guns are at longer ranges. I do find Duels to be quite good the way they are now.Different default sabre damage scales for duel and FFA? Interesting idea. The only way to know if it would work in terms of public support would be to test it using various damage scale vars on servers, and polling the joiners.

Prime
06-06-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Different default sabre damage scales for duel and FFA? Interesting idea. The only way to know if it would work in terms of public support would be to test it using various damage scale vars on servers, and polling the joiners. Actually, I wasn't really think of it in terms of different scales for Duel and FFA. I was only trying to comment that the scale doesn't seem to be sufficient in FFA, but in Duel this "problem" is less of an issue, IMO. I hadn't really considered how this might be rectified, it was merely an observation. :)

I'm not sure that actually having different scales for different game types is the way to go. I don't know if others perceive this as a real issue or not.

Spider AL
06-06-2003, 01:49 PM
I'm not sure that actually having different scales for different game types is the way to go. I don't know if others perceive this as a real issue or not.I'm sure many people do think of it as an issue, and while I can't see many serious players objecting to a large increase in the sabre damage scale for FFA, for Duel it might be a bit touchy, because Duel is quite well balanced at the moment.