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View Full Version : Let's get rid of hp regenerating force powers!(?)


Luc Solar
06-07-2003, 05:06 AM
Am I the only one who dislikes healing powers?

Remember heal in 1.02? It was a pain in the ass. (In 1.04 with level 1 heal you gain something like 5hp and lose half your force pool, though :thumbsup: :rolleyes: )

Drain in 1.04 --> a quick tap on your drain-button and you got 100hp again.

This translates into drawn out, boring fights especially if saber damage is low.

Do we really need heal? The maps have powerups littered all over! Bactas, shields, medpacks... :mad:

IMHO if you get hurt, you should stay hurt. Take out half of the powerups. Take out the dark side heal (perhaps a highest lvl drain kind of power that regenerates your hp's slightly and slowly?). Give lighties a heal that works like the heal in SP: regenerates your hp, but you need to "meditate" for a sec = making you die for certain if you use it while someone's attacking you.

This crap with *HEALHEALHEALDRAINDRAINDRAIN* in the middle of a fight is just silly. Who cares whether or not they are hit if they can get their hp's back at any time?

As for "laming", these kind of powers are great. Don't fight - simply run away and heal yourself!

shock ~ unnamed
06-07-2003, 05:48 AM
Personally I dislike heal and drain.

Most lazy/sub par players simply rely on them to give them a chance to "get that lucky shot in" while being able to stay alive regardless of how crappy their defensive game is.

However when we disable them on our server people (those mentioned above) tend to simply resort to nothing but "safe attacks". As in ranged lightning and ranged pull throwing.

So you're dammed if you do/don't in a way.


Honestly I say leave them in, improve heal so it can be on par with drain and *make sure there are *plenty of ways to take a guy out in a single shot.

That means very strong sabers *and very strong force based combos.

btw I didn't mention guns because I doubt either power is an issue for a guy with a rocket launcher...


There is no reason why a game like jo/ja has to have long drawn out battles.

Actually I think in the end this has hurt the game more than anything.

People want that fast satisfying kill and have only found themselves frustrated by pounding and pounding away on a guy for 15 minutes straight with nothing to show for it.


Go spec a game of full force saber only CTF. It's utterly ridiculous how one single flag carrier can have 5 guys chasing him for 15 minutes straight in a tiny little room and no one can kill him unless someone pops off a lucky DFA and drills him.

Back in 1.02 sure heal and drain were "uber" compared to now but I personally never found either to be frustrating because of the many ways I could wipe the guy out in a single shot.

StormHammer
06-07-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
In 1.04 with level 1 heal you gain something like 5hp and lose half your force pool, though :thumbsup: :rolleyes:

Exactly, so why nerf it even more than it already is? :rolleyes:

Drain in 1.04 --> a quick tap on your drain-button and you got 100hp again.

Exactly...it's far too powerful, and someone can continue to use drain repeatedly very quickly, so it's overpowered and unfair.

Do we really need heal? The maps have powerups littered all over! Bactas, shields, medpacks... IMHO if you get hurt, you should stay hurt. Take out half of the powerups. Take out the dark side heal (perhaps a highest lvl drain kind of power that regenerates your hp's slightly and slowly?). Give lighties a heal that works like the heal in SP: regenerates your hp, but you need to "meditate" for a sec = making you die for certain if you use it while someone's attacking you.

So now you not only want to nerf heal, but take away the powerups as well? And when you're running with about 5 hp to get that powerup to heal you, the guy pursuing you is using saberthrow, guns or whatever else at their disposal to take you out. Brilliant. :rolleyes: Forgive me while I totally disagree with your idea.

As for "laming", these kind of powers are great. Don't fight - simply run away and heal yourself!

Erm...it's harder than you make it sound to 'simply run away' if you have a determined gunner at your back.


Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Most lazy/sub par players simply rely on them to give them a chance to "get that lucky shot in" while being able to stay alive regardless of how crappy their defensive game is.

That may be true...but so do those with laggy connections. I rely on powerups and heal to compensate for my inability to block effectively when I'm lagging on a server. Perhaps your next recommendation would be that those with laggy connections should not bother playing the game at all...

Honestly I say leave them in, improve heal so it can be on par with drain and *make sure there are *plenty of ways to take a guy out in a single shot.

I disagree with the single shot idea, but I agree with improving and balancing the heal system.

btw I didn't mention guns because I doubt either power is an issue for a guy with a rocket launcher...

Of course it's an issue. I use guns most of the time because if I get into a drawn-out saber battle, it's the lag that kills me. At least with guns I have more of a fighting chance, but that puts me at a major disadvantage in melee combat - which is as it should be. But the same powers should be available to gunners as saberists.

People want that fast satisfying kill and have only found themselves frustrated by pounding and pounding away on a guy for 15 minutes straight with nothing to show for it.

I agree...saber battles can be very drawn-out affairs - unless you are using the 'duel' function, when most of your force power is nerfed and you can't use pickups anyway. I agree that they need to increase saber damage (as I stated in the other thread), so that saber duels can be better balanced and not last forever.

However, the problem has been that some people wanted it that way. As I see it, the damage ratios need to change for each MP game type. When Raven has produced patches for JO, the effects have been felt across the board, and it doesn't make a great deal of sense, because each game mode requires different styles of play. In FFA, saberists should be at a disadvantage for sticking to a melee weapon. In Duel...if they want drawn out saber battles, fair enough. The problem is that you can no longer apply the same set of parameters across the board, because it can unbalance other game modes. That's what happened with JO, in my opinion, and I'd like to see them apply different settings for different MP games modes in JA. That way, they can balance all weapons and powers for each particular game types, without nerfing the others.

Just IMHO...

shock ~ unnamed
06-07-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Of course it's an issue. I use guns most of the time because if I get into a drawn-out saber battle, it's the lag that kills me. At least with guns I have more of a fighting chance, but that puts me at a major disadvantage in melee combat - which is as it should be. But the same powers should be available to gunners as saberists.


Nah I didn't mean it like that.

What I meant is say you are healing like crazy and all I have is a saber, now chances are I'm going to get annoyed at how hard it is to kill you.

Now same scenario but I now have a gun, bang rocket flies at you and you take damage and start healing. I fire another and you die.

I just meant it as in it is not as frustrating for a gunner to deal with (the heal/drain) as it is to saber players because a gunner can shoot a guy in the back as he runs to heal. A saber guys options are much more limited when they turn tail and run/heal.

And as for people wanting those damage scales lowered, yeah a lot of people did.
However as many have noted people who are generally happy with something dont voice opinions as loudly as those who are not happy.

Add the fact that the two largest player base drop offs happened right after these patches and its pretty easy to see that the majority didnt like what changes were made.

Jeedii_zaarinn
06-07-2003, 12:12 PM
if i may put my 2 cents in, we should keep heal however, it cant be available till ur on the brink of death.

its a win-win situation really

Spider AL
06-07-2003, 12:25 PM
In SP, healing level 1 forced the player to crouch, lower his sabre and meditate, while he healed. This meant it couldn't be used constantly during combat. THAT'S the way it should be in JA.

boinga1
06-07-2003, 12:49 PM
/\ You mean level 2 and 3 should be like that too, or that MP powers should mirror the equivilant in SP?

shock ~ unnamed
06-07-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
In SP, healing level 1 forced the player to crouch, lower his sabre and meditate, while he healed. This meant it couldn't be used constantly during combat. THAT'S the way it should be in JA.

In theory yes, but in practice?

Personally if it were a frantic type of match like a FFA, I would just use my energy to take out as many people as I could before I died and totally ignore my health.

To heal in that manner you would pretty much have to run off and find a secluded corner and in turn take yourself out of the battle/lose kill opportunities/points while others just went on a killing frenzy.

If it were a 1v1 type of game, I don't see anyone being able to get away and do that unless they make the JA duel maps the size of FFA maps.

But then again I do see having that heal method as having positive effects on the game.

Make it a pain to run and heal and people won't try it as often, they will only do it when the rare occasion presents itself.

wardz
06-07-2003, 03:02 PM
I think heal should be as per the first level in JO where you crouch for a moment and gain your health...

I also am not keen on the idea of healing yourself from the point of death to full health. I would prefer to see a system whereby your health is split into 4 quarters, and if you've been hit a few times you can only heal up to the nearest quarter for each time the button has been pressed...

This would mean it would have to be used sparingly, because it is time consuming and its effects slow, this would prevent people spamming it...


That may be a slightly verbose way of putting it, but I think you get the idea.

-W

Solbe M'ko
06-07-2003, 03:44 PM
I think that heal, in its present form, should be removed from the game. In the books, etc. Jedi only healed once the danger was gone, so it doesn't make sense to heal in the middle of a fight. Drain should, I think, retain the same effect, but be weakened significantly, this would make heal/drain far less useful in a fight, but just as useful if you're hiding in a corner on an FFA map. I think heal, in a fight, should just reduce the damage you take from certain hits and boost your defence. For example, if you enable heal, and someone kicks you, you won't fall down. If someone grazes you with a blue stance swing, you would lose less health than if heal was not "on". I think that could work for fights, plus the meditation thing when you need to recharge.

Rumor
06-07-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
That may be true...but so do those with laggy connections. I rely on powerups and heal to compensate for my inability to block effectively when I'm lagging on a server. Perhaps your next recommendation would be that those with laggy connections should not bother playing the game at all...

in that case i would say G.T.H. (figure it out for yourself :P)

course that is only about that one view

GreenDevil
06-07-2003, 04:56 PM
I'd be willing to give up Heal if they would bring back Blinding :)

*pokes Luc Solar*

mawahahahah

Spider AL
06-07-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed:

Personally if it were a frantic type of match like a FFA, I would just use my energy to take out as many people as I could before I died and totally ignore my health.That would be your choice. I on the other hand, would kill as many people as I could, AND if I survived, I'd heal up. Bacta's the healing to use during combat, Force Heal should be a supplement one cannot use during combat.

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed:

Make it a pain to run and heal and people won't try it as often, they will only do it when the rare occasion presents itself.That would be the ideal. It's a powerful ability, a permanent bacta tank.

Master_Payne
06-07-2003, 06:20 PM
Reduce the damage taken is protect's task, as for heal, I don't mind if they put it in or take it out, I just play 3 modes, No force duel, FFA, if you are killing people like a mad, why bother to heal yourself, and CTF, but in ctf I run to enemy base and just stand there killing and trying to survive (is like a FFA, but 4/5 against you). even in that situation I don't heal myself.
After all is a game, you play to have fun, not to finish 1st or have more frags.

Luc Solar
06-07-2003, 06:43 PM
Exactly, so why nerf it even more than it already is?

In 1.04 heal is utterly useless. In 1.02 it was useful. Annoyingly useful. ;)

So now you not only want to nerf heal, but take away the powerups as well? And when you're running with about 5 hp to get that powerup to heal you, the guy pursuing you is using saberthrow, guns or whatever else at their disposal to take you out. Brilliant. Forgive me while I totally disagree with your idea.

Yes. That's the idea. Get hit and die. None of this "sure, I screwed up and got hit 12 times, but who cares 'cause I'll just press my little Drain-button and I'm back at 100hp again, yay!" :rolleyes:

Erm...it's harder than you make it sound to 'simply run away' if you have a determined gunner at your back.

I don't have a problem with regenerating powers in games with guns. No-one can out-run a competent gunner (jump + absorb + speed + whatever) *and* heal themselves in the process. Saber only games are the problem. If the saber isn't lethal, heal and drain should be ditched.

I rely on powerups and heal to compensate for my inability to block effectively when I'm lagging on a server. Perhaps your next recommendation would be that those with laggy connections should not bother playing the game at all...

Those with laggy connections should be at a disadvantage because, you know... they're LAGGING! :D ;)

But don't get me wrong, if other things change, regenerating powers are ok. (I voted for the light side heal, not banning them altogether.) Who cares if the opponent can heal himself if you can take him down in one shot?

What I hate is the idea of powerup-infested maps like Raven or.. ahh...you know, the other similar one where you can not kill anyone with a saber even though they're WALKING from powerup to powerup. If I land a few good hits on someone, I want him to die, not to see him take 2 steps left on a 200 shield and make me hit him 8 more times only to realize that the guy just walked across the 3 medpacks and the bacta that were right next to the huge shield which has just respawned.

Less healing powers, less powerups. This translates into more caution and people actually caring whether or not someone hits them in the face with a lightsaber. And if you die, you respawn. No biggie. :)

boinga1
06-07-2003, 08:08 PM
I personally think that if drain is weakened to the level of heal, it's probably be alright. But basically, the same as JO, less effective. Level 3 Heal brings back, what, 50 points max (if you do it twice with full force)? Drain is pretty powerful...except to lightside absorbers. :D

Spider AL
06-07-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Master_Payne:

After all is a game, you play to have fun, not to finish 1st or have more frags.Tish and pish, my fun IS to finish first. My fun IS to have more frags. Nothing else is fun. :p

Rad Blackrose
06-07-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Master_Payne
After all is a game, you play to have fun, not to finish 1st or have more frags.

:rolleyes:

No wonder why we got stuck with this saber code hypocracy BS in the first place.

I think AL said it pretty clear for me.

Solbe M'ko
06-08-2003, 02:50 AM
I, for one, have more fun if I'm not whupping players far below my skill level. I like to have a pretty even match, that way the victory is much more rewarding, as I feel a slight accomplishment, as opposed to just trying to beat 10 newbs in a minute.

yolkboy
06-08-2003, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I, for one, have more fun if I'm not whupping players far below my skill level. I like to have a pretty even match, that way the victory is much more rewarding, as I feel a slight accomplishment, as opposed to just trying to beat 10 newbs in a minute.
I also like having a pretty even match. 10 players below my skill level wouldn't be too bad if they were all after me :D then it might become interesting.

Anyways, back to the forum topic... Heal has saved me a number of times. But, as many people already stated, heal is useless interms of power. Drain is way to powerful. If drain were equivilent to heal than I don't mind. Actually, once I think about it, taking force away from opponent and healing is better than light heal. Hmm....

In my opinion, I think heal is more neutral. If I were playing either dark/light , I would heal. Absorb, should absorb the dark force. And drain, which should take away force only.

Spider AL
06-08-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

I, for one, have more fun if I'm not whupping players far below my skill level. I like to have a pretty even match, that way the victory is much more rewarding, as I feel a slight accomplishment, as opposed to just trying to beat 10 newbs in a minute.That's probably because you're not interested in self-improvement. I try to train hard enough so that ALL other players are (relative) newbies when measured against me. When I win a match easily against good quality opposition, that's the truly rewarding bit. That's what tells me I've gotten better. That's what tells me my training has worked.

BloodRiot
06-08-2003, 01:03 PM
For the light side heal I remembvered a system that will make it powerfull yet very tricky to use... anyone played Aliens vs Predator 2? All those that do play/have played it remeber the preds battery charger. For those who dont I'll explain... the predators ammo for energy weapons is a battery that powers all weapons/gear that rely on energy discharges.... most powerfull stuff drain the battery real quick. There are no energy powerups for the preds... they must use an item that recharges theyr battery to full power... the problem with it is... a pred while recharging can only walk and do a ridiculously inefective jump and he cannot attack cuz he's holding the recharger in his hands... it takes about 5 secs to recharge the battery and you glow like a xmas tree plugged into a nuclear reactor.

Ok... my point is... as sugested... heal should be a meditating force power... find somewhere to hide... and risk total sitting duck factor while the hp's are regainned. Also... the force points spent on healing should be more... something like 75% force vs full health recovery at max heal level.

Well drain is surely overpowered as well... and the dark side is hardly defensive/healer... so make the healing properties of the power less effective. Drain in fact has 2 uses... drain the foe's force points and heal the player that uses it. In my point of view... the more darksidish thing about this power is the draining part... so to keep things balanced with the aove discription of heal, drain should SLOWLY drain force points from opponent at about 1/2 rate... like you spend all your force points but only drain half the opponents force mana... while only regaining 1/4 of health points.

well... as always this is not what ou are gonna see in game... it's just my opinion on how things might become well balanced.

Out of topic but I'll just throw thins one in as well... Force lightning besides very effective is extremely annoying in my opinion... it's too effective in my opinion... I'd just make it usable against one opponent at the time at max level and you'd have to aim with the crosshairs jsut as you'd aim with a weapon... by these figures i guess damage could stay the smae or even be improved... force costs as well.

Cheers.

t3rr0r
06-08-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by BloodRiot
Out of topic but I'll just throw thins one in as well... Force lightning besides very effective is extremely annoying in my opinion... it's too effective in my opinion... I'd just make it usable against one opponent at the time at max level and you'd have to aim with the crosshairs jsut as you'd aim with a weapon... by these figures i guess damage could stay the smae or even be improved... force costs as well.
agreed. the range for lightning is too wide... maybe if it was more like dooku's lightning.

Emon
06-08-2003, 04:03 PM
JA is not a mod for JO. JA is not an expansion for JO. JA is an entirely new game. Therefor, many things will be different.

And remember, the trailer and screenshots aren't the final game. I don't know why people think they are, but they aren't. It's not coming out for at least another five months, they aren't even in the beta stage yet.

And removing heal powers kind of goes against everything the previous games about Jedi and books about Jedi are about, so it won't happen.

Solbe M'ko
06-08-2003, 04:11 PM
JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

Spider AL
06-08-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.That's strange. I guess you must think that Quake 2 was an expansion for Quake 1 then? :D

Stand-alone expansion? That's an oxymoron. If something stands alone, it's a game. If it requires a game in order to run, it's an expansion.

t3rr0r
06-08-2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.
they don't state that it is jk3... just ja.

ILR
06-08-2003, 09:25 PM
The problem with force powers for me was always difficulty of use in junction with the saber. I've rebound the main force powers to keys closer to "WADS", but when it came right down to it, managing a wide arsenal of force powers while sabering was only annoying because of the shotty controls.

Why is force heal a command you give? Why not just have the player always regenerate 1 hp every 30 seconds? (or some varying degree of this). If light side players want to fill up the health, they'd have to pull back, wait it out, and make sure they dont get hit. End result is much like our current heal power, except its one less force power I'll have to rebind or switch to.

I think the other powers should be molded more into the gameplay, instead of this "select your spell, O Wizard of RPG's." Force Jump, for example, is a nice force power that's gameplay drivin. Light side's Absorb.. or Dark side's Lightning are like commands you would give in a real time RPG. Only change "mana bar" to "time bar", and you got yourself a Final Fantasy spinoff.

BloodRiot
06-08-2003, 10:36 PM
ILR... you ARE right when you say force jump is really well implemented into gameplay.. no doubt there... I back u 100%... but i dont particulary find force keys all that complicated... I'd sugest something just a lil more practical in terms of key binding...

Well.. my ONLY key binding issue with force powers was if i wanted to change force sides... i'd need keys for all the lightside and the dark side. Well i play with the num pad for walking and i aim with mouse...i use the corner numapd keys for neutral force powers and the 6 insert to page down keys for light or dark side powers... it wouldbe way practical to bind the key to force power numbers like force power 1 through 4 or 5...

force power1= heal or drain, 2= absorb or grip and so on... that way... when you changed force side... for instance... page down(in my case) would be absorb if lightside or grip if dark side.

It only a small change that would suit me... probably other gammers that use diferent key sets dont need this at all. But going back to main issue... I dont really thing it's hard to use powers in a middle of a saber duel.

Cheers.

Zek
06-09-2003, 12:41 AM
Drain is just ridiculous, always has been. Having one power that not only cripples your opponent's force ability but also fills up your HP is stupid. It's bad enough that Darkies have a regenerative ability at all, but it just doesn't make any sense that it's usually better than the Light one.

Solbe M'ko
06-09-2003, 01:52 AM
I really like that idea about the light siders regaining HP over time automatically. I remember in X-Men 2: Clone Wars for the Genesis, Wolverine did just that. Once his HP got below 3 (out of 10, I think) you could just stand still and the HP would come back, very slowly. It was a pain to regenerate, as it took so long, so you didn't just allow yourself to get hurt, but if you made a split second mistake, you could recover from it. That would make lots of sense in a Star Wars game, where fast pace is an issue (so you can't go into a 3 hour meditation). The amount of points you put into Heal could determine the regen rate.

Personally, I don't play full force games much, so I have a problem with the controls too. I usually just select Drain and use the force button. Even if my opponent isn't hurt, drain still gets rid of his force power, so he can't push me away when I go in for the kill. I think drain should be reworked to just drain force power, not drain force power and heal.

And by the way, AL, I do improve in my game. I'm not the best player in the wide world, but I learn new things from people who are better than me. How can you learn from people who are trying to learn from you? I have a hard time beleiving that you discovered all of your strategies on your own.

shock ~ unnamed
06-09-2003, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Zek
Drain is just ridiculous, always has been. Having one power that not only cripples your opponent's force ability but also fills up your HP is stupid. It's bad enough that Darkies have a regenerative ability at all, but it just doesn't make any sense that it's usually better than the Light one.

Yeah but if done *right a stand alone heal is much better.

As a dark you would be reliant on getting close to others to heal. This translates into getting up in the face of a guy to drain off him when you are already near death.

A light could simple book it out of there and heal up in safety.

Emon
06-09-2003, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

Maybe from a superficial level.

Rockstar
06-09-2003, 07:17 AM
WHY?! would you change heal!?

its the ONE decent power the light side has that isn't a damn counter! DON'T change it

and you IDIOTS that think that the light sider should have to crouch and be defensless while using it should think how [B]useless that would be in a full server.

drain should prob be nerked, but its quite obvious that the people who want it gone are dark siders lmao

one could complain that grip needs to be nerked in light sabre only servers (coz its perfectly fair outside of that)
but it shouldn't be changed

Rockstar
06-09-2003, 07:24 AM
i think drain should be removed completely and instead force lightning should be enhanced, because drain kinda defies the whole 'all out offensive' darkside we've all grown to love and also its a pain in the arse in mp.

in sp a gradual healing power would be cool even if it was max lvled, but i dissagree with a passive healing power because mp mode is too fast paced for it. just leave it as an instant move :)

more people go the darkside anyway (coz its *"cooler"* to be evil....) so it can't piss off tooo many people lol

if heal is nerked in anyway it'll make the light side completely useless

shock ~ unnamed
06-09-2003, 09:19 AM
Right now heal is totally worthless. You have to spend 1/2 of your entire force pool to gain back 25 health. I land one single kick and you just spent 1/2 your pool for 5 hp...

Personally I don't like hp regenerating powers for either side because it makes people play sloppy and that means lesser quality competition, but that's just my opinion.

But since obviously both will remain step one is to make heal stronger if drain remains unchanged.


Now if drain were removed heal would have to require a slow down period or something along the lines of what people are suggesting because having one guy who could just run around and constantly heal while the other could not would be absurd if there was no risk/downside involved in the heal process.


If drain were to no longer function as an hp regenerating power it still would need to have an incentive to use it. Have the dark suck the force and convert it to energy that ups their speed/attack power briefly or something along those lines.

StormHammer
06-09-2003, 10:59 AM
I'd have to disagree with the idea of heal becoming a 'passive' regenerating power. The idea of regaining 1 hp per 30 seconds is a bit ridiculous considering the fast flow of an MP game, which might only last 10 minutes. If you had to stand in a corner away from the fighting to heal, then there's no point in even being in the game at all - it would be utterly useless. When I join an MP game, I want to be able to join in the battles, not retire for most of the game just to regain health.

Also, if Heal did become a passive regenerative power, with a higher ratio (say 10 hp every 30 seconds), then everyone would complain again because you're basically constantly healing. And does that mean that a Light sider would then have a constant drain on their force pool? That hardly seems fair. At least with the current system when a Dark Sider uses Drain, they can steal enough of my force pool to prevent me from healing. If as suggested, Drain was limited to just draining the force pool, and was not used to heal the Dark Sider, then it balances out fairly, because if the Light sider and Dark sider have both sustained damage, they are put on more of an even footing healthwise - but the Dark sider now has the advantage due to an increased Force pool of their own, which they can use for whatever they want, be it push, grip or lightning.

I accept that some of the power-up placement in some of the maps in JO could have been better thought out, because if you find the right spot, you can just keep running over power-ups in a lightsaber battle (shields + bacta) and keep fighting endlessly. If the shields were spaced farther apart, and the bacta was kept away from shield power-up points, that would do a lot to negate some of the drawn-out battles. So I hope they address item placement in JA.

Spider AL
06-09-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

How can you learn from people who are trying to learn from you?

I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean, but it's always beneficial to play people both better and worse than yourself. He who can't learn any lessons from inferior or superior opposition is doomed to mediocrity.

However, I try to live by the precept that my ideal gaming world is one in which I have no rival. I'd like a world in which nobody was even CLOSE to my skill level, and even though it's obviously never going to happen, that's no reason not to train towards it. ;)

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

I have a hard time beleiving that you discovered all of your strategies on your own.

Actually the ability to discover strategies before anyone else is key to staying far enough in front of the crowd in order that you might challenge for the top spot in ladders or tournaments. Every time you play with someone, you give them an opportunity to learn your tactics. Thus, you must always be making up new tactics. It's good exercise for the imagination too.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

I really like that idea about the light siders regaining HP over time automatically.

I think the "passive heal" is a pretty awful idea, personally. Hopefully JA will be a fast-paced game, and it should have fast-paced powers associated with it. Heal that heals in six seconds flat, associated with a meditative stance.

Originally posted by Rockstar:

WHY?! would you change heal!?

its the ONE decent power the light side has that isn't a damn counter! DON'T change it

and you IDIOTS that think that the light sider should have to crouch and be defensless while using it should think how [B]useless that would be in a full server.Sheesh, calm down sonny. It's not good form to go around calling people idiots, unless they've done it to you first.

As for heal, it's been nerfed since 1.03. It's useless. It's worthless. In JA, hopefully it'll be boosted, but with a meditative stance attached so that one cannot use it in the middle of combat. As for your assertion that it'd be useless in a busy game, I find myself alone for at least 10 seconds at a time, even during busy games. Well, alone except for the bodies, that is.

Plus, you could use heal in conjunction with mind-trick. That'd be rather spiffy, meditating away in the middle of a battle, completely invisible... :)

As for Drain, I don't think it should be nerfed. Perhaps its range and the size of its fan should be decreased, but nerfing powers leads only to woe.

toms
06-09-2003, 12:54 PM
i think that all that really needs to be done is that it should only work while in a crouched, stationary position.

Oh, and take it out of the single player... any SP game that has a healing ability automatically becomes both amazingly easy, and an exercise in fight, wait, fight, wait while you heal after every battle. its not as if it is needed when you have bacta and healing droids anyway.

Prime
06-09-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Rockstar
i think drain should be removed completely and instead force lightning should be enhanced, because drain kinda defies the whole 'all out offensive' darkside we've all grown to love and also its a pain in the arse in mp. What? The power takes away another player's force power, leaving them defenseless. That sounds pretty offensive to me.

Originally posted by Rockstar
if heal is nerked in anyway it'll make the light side completely useless LOL. Well, the lightsider could just turn on absorb to prevent drain from taking their force power and then using it to lightning them. Oh yeah, the light side is really useless. :rolleyes:

Luc Solar
06-09-2003, 01:37 PM
About the meditating period: something like 5 seconds of "sitting duckness" would be ok.

If you're fighting against someone and are getting low on HP, just jump across a bridge and roll behind a pillar and heal. A fast opponent could probably get a hit/throw in just as your getting up, but a slower one or someone who wasn't expecting your sudden move couldn't.

I'd very much prefer that ^^ to the insta-heal people can use while in mid swing.

Rad Blackrose
06-09-2003, 03:34 PM
Personally, I thought heal should have been similar to SP in terms of the meditate, and if at least to meet with the whiners, allow them to move around but not attack.

I also liked the hp regen portion as the force pool decreases. Something like that would allow you to still kill someone while force heal is still active, but the healee would have HP coming back or at least some left over if you didn't get the killer blow.

The only problem I have with drain to this date is the AOE drain. If it was restricted to level 2 range (both horizontally and distance wise), with a slightly tweaked HP:FP conversion ratio, then I might deem it balanced.

And as for the person that said we are taking out the one power that is not a counter for the light side: shut up.

yolkboy
06-09-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Personally, I thought heal should have been similar to SP in terms of the meditate, and if at least to meet with the whiners, allow them to move around but not attack.

I also liked the hp regen portion as the force pool decreases. Something like that would allow you to still kill someone while force heal is still active, but the healee would have HP coming back or at least some left over if you didn't get the killer blow.


Well, I like to heal on the run as I go find another person to fight. I rather not meditate. But of course that poses the problem as with the current system so I see where you are coming from. It's a tough one. Not being able to attack might be a compromise.The hp regen portion might work as well. Anyways, If I did have to meditate to heal, I would like the ability to stop healing if someone gets too close.

Solbe M'ko
06-09-2003, 08:15 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Emon says: [Maybe from a superficial level.]

Well, to my mind, the only real changes are at the superficial level, the actual feel and style of the game won't change, jsut the guns and force powers, etc. That's just my opinion, though.

And the caonstant heal thing could work, if gameplay were slowed down (which, for the record, I'm not saying would be a good thing). I find that in FFA maps where everybody starts with 100/100 and can get a maximum of 100/200, if you start to lose a fight (sabers only, BTW) you can just run off and heal for a while. Anyway, I don't like how a healer can just run around the map and only die from a single, well placed blow, but that's just me.

I agree that SP was too damn easy after you got heal. The beggining of the game is really tough, campared to Bespin (where you first encounter heal). Once you get heal level 2 or 3 and Mind Trick level 3, the game becomes a complete cakewalk, except the parts where you fight Jedi (who, because of AI problems, fight very unnaturally and are mostly all pushovers). The only tough parts after you get heal are when you have to try to protect Lando, or an R5, or Jan.

I think that healing should be slightly different for different game types, at least. Healing should be harder to do in duels and should slow you down some in FFA. In the end, though we have to put all of our faith into Raven to find a solution (and, failing that, tell the modders what we think).

Kengo
06-09-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I agree that SP was too damn easy after you got heal. The beggining of the game is really tough, campared to Bespin (where you first encounter heal). Once you get heal level 2 or 3 and Mind Trick level 3, the game becomes a complete cakewalk, except the parts where you fight Jedi (who, because of AI problems, fight very unnaturally and are mostly all pushovers). The only tough parts after you get heal are when you have to try to protect Lando, or an R5, or Jan.


Yeh, I think the game got a lot easier twice...firstly when you got the saber, then when you got heal. I'm not complaining bout getting the saber, definately not, but it sure made you a lot less vulnerable, and suddenly stormtroopers became much less of a hazard. Heal definately takes away from the 'edge' of the game a bit in SP, you know you can get that HP up inbetween fights up to full if you wish. At least at level 1 it was slow and you had to pause I guess, at higher levels it did kill your FPS a bit, but it definately made things easier, and bacta cannisters became a lot less important. I'd prefer some kind of built in heal limit, like you can only heal a certain number of times in a level, or say once every 10 minutes - but then I guess people want to se their force how they choose.

ILR
06-09-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
I'd have to disagree with the idea of heal becoming a 'passive' regenerating power. The idea of regaining 1 hp per 30 seconds is a bit ridiculous considering the fast flow of an MP game, which might only last 10 minutes. If you had to stand in a corner away from the fighting to heal, then there's no point in even being in the game at all - it would be utterly useless. When I join an MP game, I want to be able to join in the battles, not retire for most of the game just to regain health.

Also, if Heal did become a passive regenerative power, with a higher ratio (say 10 hp every 30 seconds), then everyone would complain again because you're basically constantly healing. And does that mean that a Light sider would then have a constant drain on their force pool? That hardly seems fair. At least with the current system when a Dark Sider uses Drain, they can steal enough of my force pool to prevent me from healing. If as suggested, Drain was limited to just draining the force pool, and was not used to heal the Dark Sider, then it balances out fairly, because if the Light sider and Dark sider have both sustained damage, they are put on more of an even footing healthwise - but the Dark sider now has the advantage due to an increased Force pool of their own, which they can use for whatever they want, be it push, grip or lightning.

I accept that some of the power-up placement in some of the maps in JO could have been better thought out, because if you find the right spot, you can just keep running over power-ups in a lightsaber battle (shields + bacta) and keep fighting endlessly. If the shields were spaced farther apart, and the bacta was kept away from shield power-up points, that would do a lot to negate some of the drawn-out battles. So I hope they address item placement in JA.

Ok, my 1hp per 30 seconds example was an example. MP is too fast paced for that. An yes.. 10 hp per 30 seconds is a bit fast. But we have established that MP is quite fast paced indead... so perhaps 5hp/30s will be just right? How about 4hp/30s? No?.. 4.5 then?

What I'm trying to say is that on the low side (1hp/30s) you agree its too slow. But you also agree that it can get to fast. Well... the world is full of middle grounds. If there's a low side and a high side, then there's gotta be a "just right" somewhere in the middle.

As for Drain being constant? An interesting consept! Lets say when 10 meters from a dark jedi who has force drain ability you regain your force power... except only a bit slower. And as your proximity to the dark Jedi narrows, your rate of regen gets slower and slower (never, of course, go down). Since its a passive ability, it's at no cost to the dark Jedi to do. And the effect is any opposing jedi has a harder and harder time regaining mana the closer he gets to his opponent. This would give jedi with drain an incentive to do close combat, and be the maniac offensive dark jedi we know him to be. Now THATS a gameplay drivin force power if I ever heard one.

Solbe M'ko
06-09-2003, 09:29 PM
THAT is a really cool idea.

t3rr0r
06-09-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
THAT is a really cool idea.
i second that.

Solbe M'ko
06-09-2003, 09:38 PM
Passive force powers would be a cool addition to the game, and would add another aspect to the whole force-powers situation. Right now there are 1-time use powers and on/off powers. To have a few powers that are on all the time would be neat.

The dark jedi would have a slight advantage in, say, a saber lock. He could get back force points faster than the light sider, and so could use push more often ( I don't really like the whole push thing, but, meh!). That is a very neat idea and I sure hope that something to that end gets into the game (unlikely).

Spider AL
06-10-2003, 10:21 AM
Frankly all these "passive" force powers would only turn the game into a massive ballroom dance. People circling each other for hours until their respective powers have taken what effect they wish. It'd turn lightsiders into runners, even more so than in 1.02. They ran away to heal instantly before, then came back into the fray... but with this passive healing, they'd spend all their time running away. Awful.

HertogJan
06-10-2003, 10:56 AM
I like the idea of passive force powers, but I see that there can be a lot of downsides... But it would be really great if the difference between dark and light side became more clear.

Darksiders would have other abilities and disadvantages than the Lightsiders. Right now only a set of forcepowers seperates a Jedi from a Sith...

Spider AL
06-10-2003, 11:14 AM
Darksiders would have other abilities and disadvantages than the Lightsiders. Right now only a set of forcepowers seperates a Jedi from a Sith...According to movie canon Hertog, the only thing that separates a Jedi and a Sith is how they use their powers, and in what spirit. Jedi can use choking powers, Sith can cloud the minds of others. There's no division in powers. Think MOTS.

Mero Vilul
06-10-2003, 11:20 AM
How I want it:

Heal:
as some said, you crouch & meditate. Health gradually increases until a certain hp is regained, depending on the level of the force. I think it should be at least 2x as much as it is i 1.04. (in duels you will almost never be able to use this, so if you manage to use it then it better be worth it). It can't be to slow though, it should be pretty fast, but it would leave you open for hits for maybe 5 seconds. Which is forever in JK2. All other force powers are turned off if you use heal (protect, absorb).

Drain:
You can only walk while using it and you can't block anything. The wideness of the drain is about 50% less than JK2, making aiming actually necessary. When you use drain you can't abort it until 2 seconds passed by. The healing you do is the same rate as in JK2 except for one thing; When you start to drain someone the drain goes slow but slowly speeds up, after locking on to the other guy for maybe like 1,5 seconds the drainrate is 100%. the lvl2 version should not be infinit ranged, if you want to drain you must stay near your opponent.

So; light siders needs to get a distance between the opponents to heal, and the darksiders needs to stay close to be able to heal (and use a little bit more aiming skill).

Healing will be much harder and the opponent can beat you up really hard if you try it.

Spider AL
06-10-2003, 11:29 AM
Sounds good to me, Mero.

HertogJan
06-10-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
According to movie canon Hertog, the only thing that separates a Jedi and a Sith is how they use their powers, and in what spirit. Jedi can use choking powers, Sith can cloud the minds of others. There's no division in powers. Think MOTS.

**** the movies ;) No seriously, it's for gameplay's sake. I just like to see more differences between the light and the dark side.

And if both Jedi and Sith can use the same powers, JO was wrong too in MP, since you can't use absorb and grip at the same time :rolleyes:

Spider AL
06-10-2003, 11:56 AM
And if both Jedi and Sith can use the same powers, JO was wrong too in MP, since you can't use absorb and grip at the same time That's right. Hence: Think MOTS. ;)

No seriously, it's for gameplay's sake. I just like to see more differences between the light and the dark side. Why? The more differences, the harder to match the two sides. And nowhere, including the canon, does it say that there should be many obvious differences. Hence my previous post.

I think MOTS was the ideal, personally. The best gameplay came from everyone having the same access to the same powers.

Prime
06-10-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Frankly all these "passive" force powers would only turn the game into a massive ballroom dance. People circling each other for hours... So it would be just like now. Might as well just call it a mod and have done with it :) And Al, are you using the movies to support your point? Has the world gone topsy-tervy? :D I do agree with you though. I always thought MOTS had handled force powers the best. I'd be thrilled if JA went that way. Mero has some good ideas too.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII. LEC isn't marketing it as JKIII...

Spider AL
06-10-2003, 12:25 PM
And Al, are you using the movies to support your point? Has the world gone topsy-tervy? :DHey, if it works, use it. :p

Seriously, nah. I was just under the impression that he'd gotten the idea that Jedi and Sith should be separate, from the same place most people do, the secondary canon. So I decided to point out that the primary canon agrees with the opposite.

So it would be just like now. This is sadly true... Fortunately, it isn't currently the best way to win, even though people do it. The danger is that passive powers would make running away, the best way to win. Thus, I'd have to do it. :( I don't like running.

Prime
06-10-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Hey, if it works, use it. :p

Seriously, nah. I was just under the impression that he'd gotten the idea that Jedi and Sith should be separate, from the same place most people do, the secondary canon. So I decided to point out that the primary canon agrees with the opposite. I certainly wouldn't argue that :)

Originally posted by Spider AL
This is sadly true... Fortunately, it isn't currently the best way to win... True enough.

Spider AL
06-10-2003, 03:04 PM
I certainly wouldn't argue thatOh it absolutely does. I mean, there is only one power that a Sith uses in the Original Trilogy that you don't see a Jedi use as well. This suggests that both sides have access to roughly the same abilities. This then surely means that it's one's mindset and intent that defines whether one is a Lightsider or a Darksider, not the powers that you use to facilitate your intentions.

Rumor
06-10-2003, 07:15 PM
ok kids a little history lesson:

MOTS = Masters of the Sith, the expansion pack for Dark Forces 2

thus it is a GAME not a movie.

yolkboy
06-10-2003, 07:48 PM
Ummm... MOTS = Mysteries of the Sith. I personally haven't played it so would somebody please give me some background on how they did the force powers? :D

Spider AL
06-10-2003, 08:56 PM
Yolk, there was no light or dark division in MotS. Merely a range of powers inspired by canon and JK respectively, which each player could choose a selection from.

It was leet.

Originally posted by Rumor:

ok kids a little history lesson:

MOTS = Masters of the Sith, the expansion pack for Dark Forces 2

thus it is a GAME not a movie."kids"? ;) Mysteries mate, mysteries. Not masters. And it may have been marketed as an expansion pack, but since it ran using an updated engine and did not use any JK resources, it was technically and to all intents and purposes, a standalone game. The only hard link it had to JK was that it checked the JK CD1, in order to tell whether you owned the game. Rather pointlessly, one thought, as that measure was easily circumvented.

Are you sure it wasn't a movie btw? I thought it was a movie. :nut:

Prime
06-10-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Oh it absolutely does. I mean, there is only one power that a Sith uses in the Original Trilogy that you don't see a Jedi use as well. This suggests that both sides have access to roughly the same abilities. This then surely means that it's one's mindset and intent that defines whether one is a Lightsider or a Darksider, not the powers that you use to facilitate your intentions. I was agreeing with you :) From this post, I get the impression you thought I wasn't. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. :D

BloodRiot
06-11-2003, 12:04 AM
I second the MOTS system in which there are not force side exclusive powers. I do remember the game, I played it alot and I must say that it led to great fun since the range of possible enemies and force related strategies would difer immenselly.

Although it poses another question... right now thinking of JO, the force pwoers is what defines the force side... if the MOTS system was applyed how would you tell a light side from a dark side, or is there even a need for such a distinction?

Rumor
06-11-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Yolk, there was no light or dark division in MotS. Merely a range of powers inspired by canon and JK respectively, which each player could choose a selection from.

It was leet.

"kids"? ;) Mysteries mate, mysteries. Not masters. And it may have been marketed as an expansion pack, but since it ran using an updated engine and did not use any JK resources, it was technically and to all intents and purposes, a standalone game. The only hard link it had to JK was that it checked the JK CD1, in order to tell whether you owned the game. Rather pointlessly, one thought, as that measure was easily circumvented.

Are you sure it wasn't a movie btw? I thought it was a movie. :nut:

crap i wrote masters? feh i meant mysteries. oh well u kno what i meant lol...

yes spider al, you are a kid :p

yolkboy
06-11-2003, 03:52 AM
Hmmmm.... Makes me want to go out and buy MOTS. $5 in a bargain bin? Sounds like a good Force system. That would be nice to see in the up coming JA.

HertogJan
06-11-2003, 06:02 AM
But it won't be there, since they said they were going to seperate light and dark side even more than in JO... And I haven't played MotS, so I don't know how it worked out online :(

BloodRiot
06-11-2003, 07:04 AM
MOTS had a class system:

*Jedi
*Soldier
*Bounty-Hunter
*Scout

I think this was all there was.

The Force powers were separated in tiered groups from the so called neutral force powers to the more powerfull defensive/offensive powers such as protect and destruction.

There were force allocation points much like JO but unlike it theywere not more expensive the higher the power..there was another kind of limitation: there were limits to the number of force power in each tier... the first tier had about 6 powers (Push, Pull, Seeing, etc) and you could chose up to 4 of the powers, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th(?) tier had 4 or powers to chose from each but you could only select 2 of them in each tier.
There was an un tiered hability called defense that costed twice the force points. The Bounty hunters had alot fo defense automatically which didnt allow them to choose any force powers... the rest besides the Jedi also had defense. A jedi could also pick defense which made them more resistant to damage but they had to sacrifice alot of force in return. Since each point allocated into defense closed access to a force tier from top down.

Well that pretty much describes the force system in MOTS.

If anything is unclear I'll be happy to clarify. :cool:

Spider AL
06-11-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Prime:

I was agreeing with you :) From this post, I get the impression you thought I wasn't. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. :DAhh yes, I think you missed a "with" out somewhere in your previous post. "I wouldn't argue that" can be construed as being opposite to "I wouldn't argue with that. TSK TSK! :p

Still, gave me an opportunity to jump right back on my soapbox and start yammering, so cheers mate! :D

Originally posted by BloodRiot:

if the MOTS system was applyed how would you tell a light side from a dark side, or is there even a need for such a distinction?I don't think there is a need... After all, any player who wants to win an online game ends up using a standard set of powers, whatever side of the force those powers happen to be on. And for RPGers, the movie canon states that Sith and Jedi have access to the same abilities, so hey, everyone's happy with the MotS system. :)

Originally posted by Rumor:

yes spider al, you are a kid :pIt's a pleasant rarity to be called a kid at my age, I have to accost the elderly at knifepoint to illicit such a compliment usually. Many thanks.

Originally posted by HertogJan:

But it won't be there, since they said they were going to seperate light and dark side even more than in JO... And I haven't played MotS, so I don't know how it worked out online They've said that about MP as well as SP? That's a damn shame. Still, never mind, we can mod it.

HertogJan
06-11-2003, 07:48 PM
Question: when you have acces to all forcepowers, wouldn't they be exploited??

I can imagine absorb+lightning or something being overused, although the limited supply of mana would deal with lots of problems... I like the idea, gotta play MotS sometime soon :)

Rockstar
06-12-2003, 06:56 AM
how can people think that the sith need a healing power aswell as the light?? if that is so then the light side needs lightning??? coz darkside healing?! :confused: someone doesn't know their starwars!!! :evanpiel: lol

the heal is a light side power only because of its tendency to do good. :D

the dark side get an absolutely ridiculas power.... and yes folks thats drain...... *shakes head*

Spider AL
06-12-2003, 12:09 PM
I can imagine absorb+lightning or something being overused, although the limited supply of mana would deal with lots of problems... As you say Hert, the mana consumption seemed to even everything out. One couldn't use too many powers simultaneously with a normal mana pool. It worked fairly well...

HertogJan
06-12-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
As you say Hert, the mana consumption seemed to even everything out. One couldn't use too many powers simultaneously with a normal mana pool. It worked fairly well...

OK :) Oh and if you want to abbreviate my name, I think 'HJ' would work best... Or maybe Hertog, but 'Hert' by itself means something totally different than my nickname...

BTW my nickname = Hertog Jan = Count/Duke Jan

Jan is a comman MALE name in the Netherlands ;)

Prime
06-12-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
BTW my nickname = Hertog Jan = Count/Duke Jan

Jan is a comman MALE name in the Netherlands ;) Holly cow! I actually learned something at Lucasforums! :D

Spider AL
06-12-2003, 02:05 PM
Aye, you learn something new every day.

Is Jan is pronounced "yan" in the netherlands?

While "Jan" in the US and possibly UK is short for "Janine" or "Janice" or somesuch female name.

'Hert' by itself means something totally different than my nickname...Oooh, what does it mean? Is it DIRTY? :D

BloodRiot
06-12-2003, 11:07 PM
I cant resist indulging this out of topic conversation cuz it also spiked my curiosity..what does hert mean? ;p

Oh and I already said this in another forum... but you wouldn't believe what Dooku SOUNDS like in Portuguese.

I'll explain... The Translation is pretty simple..The title "Count" becomes "Conde" and rthe name has no translation... So the literal translation is "Conde Dooku".

Well the sound Dooku(doo-koo) is exactly the same as if we joined two portuguese words "do" and "c"-> "Conde Do C"

So basically "Conde Dooku" and "Conde Do C" are exactly the same sound and "Conde Do C" translated back into english means something like "Count of the @ss".

How about that huh?

HertogJan
06-13-2003, 05:50 AM
Sorry guys, Hert doesn't mean something like ass or something :)

A 'hert' is a deer... You know, the animal!!

And 'Jan' is pronounced (in English) as er... (uh-oh) 'yawn', but the 'a' sound is short, and not as long as in yawn.
AND PLEASE DONT MAKE JOKES ABOUT THE YAWN THING :) It was only an example ;)

Oh and before I forget it: Hertog Jan was a count in The Netherlands/Belgium (which weren't seperate states back then) and he was very powerfull (hehe) and he liked beer very much. That's why a beer brand was named after him, it's the best beer of the Netherlands and it's logo looks like:

http://members.lycos.nl/hertogjan45/hj.jpg


http://www.hertogjan.nl is the website of this beer brand :)

That was "Dutch for newbies" lesson 2, tomorrow we start with pronounciation of the word "scheerschuim", which means "shavinf foam" in Dutch :)

Spider AL
06-13-2003, 11:59 AM
Sorry guys, Hert doesn't mean something like ass or something

A 'hert' is a deer... You know, the animal!!Well never mind HJ, you'll always be a donkey to us. :p

yolkboy
06-14-2003, 05:40 PM
UUUUMMMMMMMMM..... BBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR :guiness:

HertogJan
06-15-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by yolkboy
UUUUMMMMMMMMM..... BBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR :guiness:

Exactly my thoughts ;) Oh and guinness is not beer :p I prefer lager beer, the thought of warm beer makes me sick :eek:

Rockstar
06-15-2003, 12:37 PM
nods with in agreement with the warm beer comment

.... tho laggas don't beat good ol' beer like toowies :D

Rockstar
06-16-2003, 07:29 AM
ahem

WHY!!! would you give dark side healing powers?!?!?!???

that is like giving the light side force lightning???

people dis the idea of giving the light side an enhanced force push yet the darkies want heal???

heal is more light than push is dark....

people go meh meh meh, light side only used for defense.... its used to DEFEND YOURSELF. yes they wouldn't use lightning but in ep1 how many droids did quigon push over...?? OMG he's SOOO evil

ILR
06-16-2003, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure who said this first...... but...

It was my impression that force abilities are just force abilities, and that whether you are light side or dark side is determined on how you use the powers. Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning in ep two, and shot it back. Say "but but! Dooku shot it!" all you want, the fact still remains that YODA SHOT LIGHTNING! He's not exactly a dark sider.

Also.. Mind Trick. The fuggin Emperor is doing Mind Trick on the entire galaxy. At the end of ep II everyone was clueless as to who is fuggin with the Old Republic. The Jedi aren't that dumb, it's gotta be the "dark side clouding" Yoda's always talkin about. It's just mind trick.

And Luke choked two pig gaurds to death in RotJ. (In quite a bad ass way I might add).

The thing that distinquishes light from dark is anger and peace. The dark side feeds off of rage and hate, so you get quick instant gratification force powers with little to no training by finding something to get pissed off about. Light side developes skill over long time, keeping themselves at peace.

At least thats my take.

toms
06-16-2003, 01:50 PM
the best way to differentiate between dark and lightsiders would be for each to regenerate Force Power in different ways... and/or different force powers to use different amounts of power.

Lightsiders might regenerate while stationary or at rest, while dark siders might regenerate while attacking.

probably impossible to balance gameplay wise, but a more "realistic" way of doing things.

Rockstar
06-20-2003, 07:43 AM
thank you SO SO SO SO MUCH!!! thats exactly right! yoda shot back lightning!!!

im sorry to have to single someone out but "Prime" said even absorbing dark powers and sending them back even only as a force push was "too dark" for the light side, when we have the LORD OF THE LIGHT SIDE (yoda) SENDING BACK FORCE LIGHTNING!!

THIS IS ONE POWER THAT JKA HAS TO UTILISE! i hope so much they put it in the new game

if not they will just make the light side lame again *sighs*
makes you wonder how much starwars lucasarts actually watch huh??

BloodRiot
06-20-2003, 08:24 AM
I understand the lightside has little fun with nothing more than coutner powers or non agressive powers... no arguement there...

One has to think about the fun factor involved in the game.. however I must say that im worried about everything being so much about force powers... I'd prefer a crappy force pwoers system over an excelent saber system anyday...

I said this in a few thread already so im gonna keep this simple this time... 3 words: MOTS force system.

In MP make no distinction between force sides and just let the side be determined by the way one plays... the force is the same for both sides... as said before..yoda shot back lightning... luke gripped the gammoreans in ROTJ... Darth Vader uses protection in ESB when Han fires at him... Palpatine uses mind trick etc etc.

The bottom line for me is... Keep the saber the most effective way of killing an opponent and the force powers just as a bonus or tools that gives the player an advantage in a fight.

Prime
06-20-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Rockstar
people go meh meh meh, light side only used for defense.... its used to DEFEND YOURSELF. yes they wouldn't use lightning but in ep1 how many droids did quigon push over...?? OMG he's SOOO evil The key word in there is "droid". They are not living beings, but machines, just like a toaster. Our man Q-G never used force push on a living being, to my knowledge. As to the real reason battle droids are used in the Prequels, have a look here. (http://www.jediknight.net/3do/download/17.gif)

This, of course, has nothing to do with JO, but since we are getting into yet another game/movie debate...

Originally posted by ILR
It was my impression that force abilities are just force abilities, and that whether you are light side or dark side is determined on how you use the powers. Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning in ep two, and shot it back. Say "but but! Dooku shot it!" all you want, the fact still remains that YODA SHOT LIGHTNING! He's not exactly a dark sider. I agree. This is why I and others have proposed that the old MOTS implementation of the Force be used. This represents much more accurately what we see in the movies. The motivations and emotions at the time make a big difference.

Originally posted by ILR
Also.. Mind Trick. The fuggin Emperor is doing Mind Trick on the entire galaxy. At the end of ep II everyone was clueless as to who is fuggin with the Old Republic. The Jedi aren't that dumb, it's gotta be the "dark side clouding" Yoda's always talkin about. It's just mind trick. I'd would debate that this is what is happening, but it isn't worth getting into. But suffice to say that I don't think it is a mind trick. The dark side is, by its nature, difficult to see.

Originally posted by ILR
And Luke choked two pig gaurds to death in RotJ. (In quite a bad ass way I might add). The thing that distinquishes light from dark is anger and peace. The dark side feeds off of rage and hate, so you get quick instant gratification force powers with little to no training by finding something to get pissed off about. Light side developes skill over long time, keeping themselves at peace.

At least thats my take. Yes he did. Once again the MOTS system would reflect this the best. But if we are going to have a system where the lightside has different powers than the dark side, it can be argued that since Luke almost fell to the dark side while fighting Vader, this was a first step in that direction.

Originally posted by Rockstar
thank you SO SO SO SO MUCH!!!LOL.

Originally posted by Rockstar
im sorry to have to single someone out but "Prime" said even absorbing dark powers and sending them back even only as a force push was "too dark" for the light side, when we have the LORD OF THE LIGHT SIDE (yoda) SENDING BACK FORCE LIGHTNING!! Yes, I think that it is too dark for the light side. I view what Yoda did as exactly the same as deflecting blaster fire back at your attacker. This is not the same as a new offensive light side force power that you are proposing. In any case, the JO system of the Force has lightside and darkside powers. For gameplay reasons, the light side is defensive and the dark side is offensive (a decent enough representation of the movies). Because of this, having a light side power that is an attack does not fit. Again, the MOTS system would be much better.

Originally posted by Rockstar
THIS IS ONE POWER THAT JKA HAS TO UTILISE! i hope so much they put it in the new game

if not they will just make the light side lame again *sighs* Why? It seems to me that the only reason you want it is because you want to run around shooting people with Force powers, and pretend you are a good Jedi. Yet again, why not just play using the dark side? It has everything you want. Raven has given you the option of playing either defensively or offensively. You want to play offensively. That option is there. Why are you demanding that the defensive light side has to be changed to offensive as well? This is what I am ultimately arguing against.

Originally posted by Rockstar
makes you wonder how much starwars lucasarts actually watch huh?? LOL. It is probably safe to assume they know more than us. Whether they do or not, theirs is the final word on the matter.

Luc Solar
06-20-2003, 04:23 PM
If we got two sides of the force, there's no point whatsoever in having the dark side shoot lightning but give that to the light side as well. Please-please-oh please just play on dark side and everyone's happy.

Having an offensive side and a defensive side but letting the defensive side get all their own cool powers AND offensive ones is just stupid. Who would like to play dark when you can "have it all" as a lightie? Not me.

And how on earth would you make this whole "storing powers"-thing work? I mean.. sure, you might get a burst of lightning every now and then, but what's the point? It matters nothing. We got people noobing around maps with their lightning-key pressed down 24/7 and they get 0 kills (drain/absorb). What good would a little burst do or a powerful push for that matter? You'd have a few more buttons to bind and a much more complicated fighting system requiring a lot of programming for..what exactly?

As for all the "it's in teh movies"-arguments.. oh PLEASE! This is a friggin' game, not a movie! If jedimasterlukeskywalker's ass was saved by a blind Han Solo who happened to swing his stick right on Boba's jetpack's switch, it doesn't mean that it must be implemented in the game too. Vader blocked a blaster shot with his hand. We want that too? All shots just bouncing off players?

The MOTS-system would be cool, though.

Prime
06-20-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
If we got two sides of the force, there's no point whatsoever in having the dark side shoot lightning but give that to the light side as well. Please-please-oh please just play on dark side and everyone's happy.

Having an offensive side and a defensive side but letting the defensive side get all their own cool powers AND offensive ones is just stupid. Who would like to play dark when you can "have it all" as a lightie? Not me.

And how on earth would you make this whole "storing powers"-thing work? I mean.. sure, you might get a burst of lightning every now and then, but what's the point? It matters nothing. We got people noobing around maps with their lightning-key pressed down 24/7 and they get 0 kills (drain/absorb). What good would a little burst do or a powerful push for that matter? You'd have a few more buttons to bind and a much more complicated fighting system requiring a lot of programming for..what exactly? I agree completely...

Originally posted by Luc Solar
If jedimasterlukeskywalker's ass was saved by a blind Han Solo who happened to swing his stick right on Boba's jetpack's switch, it doesn't mean that it must be implemented in the game too. It was a pretty sweet move though :D

Rockstar
06-22-2003, 11:38 AM
actually, i think your right!

we don't need the game to be like the movies... ha!

we don't need anything of it to be like the movies! actually who needs force powers?! ha! thats in the movies! meh! lets just take them out hey? its only a STAR WARS GAME!

actually lets even get rid of light sabers!! who needs em hey?? we don't care if the game aint like the movies.... actually why even call it jedi knight??? lets call it COUNTER STRIKE or SOF2??? why don't we?? we don't care if theres nothing starwars in the game do we?

OFCOARSE WE WANT A STARWARS GAME TO REFLECT THE DAMN MOVIES!!

Prime
06-22-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Rockstar
we don't need anything of it to be like the movies! actually who needs force powers?! ha! thats in the movies! meh! lets just take them out hey? its only a STAR WARS GAME!

actually lets even get rid of light sabers!! who needs em hey?? we don't care if the game aint like the movies.... actually why even call it jedi knight??? lets call it COUNTER STRIKE or SOF2??? why don't we?? we don't care if theres nothing starwars in the game do we?

OFCOARSE WE WANT A STARWARS GAME TO REFLECT THE DAMN MOVIES!! But the game does not need to be exactly like the movies, because this, of course, is impossible. This is a game, and not a movie, so there are going to be differences.

But yes, let's try and make the JK series exactly like the movies. That means:

- there is no Force Heal, Dark Rage, Team Heal, Force Drain, Force Protect, or Force Absorb.

- there is no guided lightsaber throw

- besides the lightsaber, the player would not be able to use anything more than a blaster pistol (if that).

- there would be no Reborn to fight, because you can't imbue people with the Force.

- there would be no dark jedi to fight because Vader and the Emperor killed them all.

- light siders would be unable to push other living players, because it leads to the dark side

- since the game does not take place during the prequels, Kyle Katarn would not exist because the Empire would have discovered when he was born that he had Force potential. And killed him.

- similarly, no Jedi character other than Luke would would exist at that time, because Yoda, Obi-wan, and Luke are the only ones in existence.

- dark siders could only use red lightsabers, and light siders could only use blue, green, and purple.

- only blasters and thermal detonators would be in the game.

- Kyle would have turned to the dark side because he used force lightning.

- Kyle would have turned to the dark side for seeking revenge.

- Kyle would have started out with full Force powers at the beginning of JO.

- the game would have no powerup, shields, bacta tanks, and so on.

- Kyle would not be with Jan because "attachment is forbidden".

- and so on...

The point is, because it is a game and not a movie, compromises are made for gameplay and other reasons.

Rockstar
06-22-2003, 10:46 PM
... you put up a good arguement lmao

however there are several counters:

as for kyles attachment, and use of weapons. this is because he isn't really actually a jedi, more of what luke was in the 1st 2 movies, really just a dude with a lightsaber and mediocre use of the force. however, in the game he becomes veeery strong with the force, more than he probably actually could (i doubt he could use lightning), however, as you said this compremise is made for game play

powers like absorb, and protection, they are just cool :D

Prime
06-22-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Rockstar
as for kyles attachment, and use of weapons. this is because he isn't really actually a jedi, more of what luke was in the 1st 2 movies, really just a dude with a lightsaber and mediocre use of the force. Indeed. That is why Kyle is such a great character, as far as gaming is concerned :)

HertogJan
06-23-2003, 06:16 AM
But in JA, you going to play a real JEDI. And in JA, Kyle's a real Jedi too :D So I still can't see why you still have an arsenal like that, but hey, for gameplay's sake...