PDA

View Full Version : Has mankind visited the moon?


Zoom Rabbit
06-28-2003, 09:07 AM
Here's a link to a website that theorizes that the US never sent manned missions to the moon during the Apollo program:

http://www.moonmovie.com/15things.html

So, what do YOU guys think? :dozey: Given this hairless monkey's fifteen 'reasons' why the moon landings were nothing more than an elaborate hoax, should we really re-examine what we all learned in school?

RoguePhotonic
06-28-2003, 09:13 AM
I believe we never went to the moon but not picking any of those on the poll...non of them are good lol...who says their are foot prints up there at all......

"edit"

Never mind...guess I can do sound stage 8/


This is one thread I would not get involved in...I did on one forum once...but it leads to really REALLY bad flaming lol....I hate when people go off about oh that is stupid when they have never looked at any of the reasons why we did not go....I look at it like they don't have a right to an opinion if you don't have all relevant information

Zoom Rabbit
06-28-2003, 09:51 AM
No need to worry about flaming here. We're all nice, happy little people...right?

*(Leans on his sword.)*

:)

RoguePhotonic
06-28-2003, 09:58 AM
lol....had some bad fights on that subject...aww memories...long banned from that place lol....I have been banned from every forum I have ever gone to..:cry6:

Darth Rythe
06-28-2003, 10:03 AM
putting all my Star Wars instink aside i would have to say no.

PrimoSidone
06-28-2003, 10:42 AM
Nope,

When arnie viseted the moon, he *planted* the flag in to the ground, and the flag was moving, u know just like when a flag moves when there is wind.....

HOW THE HELL CAN A FLAG MOVE IF THERE AINT ANNY AIR?

RoguePhotonic
06-28-2003, 10:57 AM
one thing off about the flag is that fact that it is not down...because there is not allot but is some gravity on the moon...enough to have the flag down and not straight out....

Bilbo Skywalker
06-28-2003, 10:59 AM
I found a site that explains all the so called 'discrepancies', i was a total non-believer until i saw this site, it changed my mind. i cant even find it now =/ , try doing a search on 'moon landing fake'.

It provided scientific reasons for these 'discrepancies'

RoguePhotonic
06-28-2003, 11:03 AM
I have seen sites like that but I could tell allot of what they said was pretty half assed....because think about what it would really mean if it was fake?....it would be MASSIVE!

<JOTD>Jedi Hunter
06-28-2003, 11:04 AM
Momentum, I believe it's called. It can do alot. Transfering one energy medium to the next. It can often cause ripples in fabric. Though that's just my explaination. However, I do think it wonderful that you've all got such an open mind. Most people lack that admirable quality.

Eldritch
06-28-2003, 11:27 AM
Yes, we've landed on the moon.

Anyone who says otherwise has either smoked too much dope or watched too many episodes of the X-Files (or both at the same time, which could explain a lot).

Semicolon
06-28-2003, 11:27 AM
Ohhh nother crazy thread by Zoomy...Actaully this one makes sense.

Everything I've ben taught in school is a lie. Like Columbus day...We were told that was the day Columbus discoverd America...

Yeah he didn't even make it to America.... What a lie

So the Moon probably dosn't even exist...

RoguePhotonic
06-28-2003, 11:29 AM
oh the moon is very real...just never been there....it makes sense...was a race to get to the moon so we set ourselves ahead by faking it.....why would we want to go to it anyway?...it's a big rock...nothing more..

Semicolon
06-28-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
oh the moon is very real...just never been there....it makes sense...was a race to get to the moon so we set ourselves ahead by faking it.....why would we want to go to it anyway?...it's a big rock...nothing more..

A big sexy rock mind you ;)

|GG|Carl
06-28-2003, 12:52 PM
Yeah, right...
I can guarantee they just made this up to make money for themselves.

What about all the people who was working at NASA? Didn't they know anything about it?
If this is true, they would. And how to make thousands of people to be quiet, when they can make millions of dollars if they told CNN the truth?

This is absurd, of course man has been at the moon!

PrimoSidone
06-28-2003, 12:56 PM
Its all a big CONSPIRECY

Semicolon
06-28-2003, 01:11 PM
Or a government cover up...

C Shutt
06-28-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
This is one thread I would not get involved in...I did on one forum once...but it leads to really REALLY bad flaming lol....I hate when people go off about oh that is stupid when they have never looked at any of the reasons why we did not go....

More likely they have looked at the flimsy evidence supporting the "moon hoax" claims, and just find the evidence to the contrary far more compelling. If you're willing to look at both sides, then it's clear that any claims the moon landing was faked are utterly ridiculous.

Darth Eggplant
06-28-2003, 05:47 PM
when i was just a little boy 7 years old i got to stay up late and watch on TV and I am not talking about some tv sound byte the moment in time itself. i have also heard and seen all the for and against conspiracy things. what you have to realize is that in that moment in time going to the moom and the space race was non violent game of politics for the US and Russia to play, who was in space first, there the longest etc. they never found resourses on the moon that was one of the reasons they went. and thank god they did not or we would have mined a whole inot the moon that would have blown the thing up, then we would be like the klingons in that star trek movie a dying race.
space is expensive and with the explossion of that last space shuttle it is going to years before they happpily send more.
i would like to think in the great hope and future of the positive outlook of Gene Rodenburry and Star Trek or George lucas of Star Wars; that we did in fact go to the moon, because all that sci -fi is not going to become sci-fact unless it did.

*and by the way
I voted they are Zoom's foot prints on the moon.*
:D

The Cheat
06-28-2003, 05:50 PM
theres no doubt about it, we have all seen the pictures and movies, we know that we have been to the moon

Semicolon
06-28-2003, 05:59 PM
There is no moon.....You must relize this :D

Zoom Rabbit
06-28-2003, 07:27 PM
I voted for the 'no moon' hypothesis as well. :dozey:

Yes, I think we went to the moon. The flag argument is a perfect example of what's wrong with the 'no-landing' theory. It was standing out straight because it had a wire stuck through the top. :rolleyes: They knew it was going to just hang, which wouldn't look good on the news, so they sewed a wire into the flag to make it stand out.

Also, the moon does indeed have an atmosphere...just not much of one. :D There aren't enough gas molecules present to cause the flag 'waving,' however. That is being caused by momentum, as Jedi Hunter pointed out. Since there wasn't enough air or gravity to affect the flag, the slightest movement would have traveled along that wire we just discussed and caused the whole thing to move. Remember Newton--a thing in motion remains in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. We don't see this much down here on Earth in our soupy atmosphere and thick gravity, but in space the slightest movement continues on for much longer.

At least I think it was Newton... :)

edlib
06-28-2003, 08:07 PM
I have heard a lot of theories in the past about men not going to the moon and that it was a huge conspiracy to fool the world.
I, for one, believe that it is making it needlessly complicated. Think about Occam's Razor; it would end up being more costly and complicated to build NASA, stage fake rocket launches, build a huge soundstage, hire the most talented FX guys available at the time as well as all the ususal film-crew types,.. and THEN keep the whole lot of them silent for 30+ years. :rolleyes: yeah,.. that's going to work. Sounds a whole lot easier, doesn't it?

It ends up easier and cheaper to just go to the moon. Therefore, there's no reason to believe that isn't what they did.

RoguePhotonic
06-28-2003, 08:10 PM
Well lets put it this way...there is so much saying we didn't go to the moon I would be a fool to ever believe we did....there is allot more than what you are seeing on that site...

and who says everyone at nasa knows about it?...probably just a handfull do...all those people sitting at their computers are doing their job...


what do you mean though keep the people silent you hire for a film....that's no problem at all...it's called a gun :p


I think it's kinda funny though people saying we all have seent he pictures...of course it's real....yeah well I have seen the same images and those same ones make me think it's fake:D

edlib
06-28-2003, 09:15 PM
Well, then there's also the astronauts, and thier families, and the families of everyone involved with any supposed filming... it just works out to be an enormous number of people to keep silent.
People are a problem. They are unpredictable, often have other agendas, and if they see a way to get notarity or make a profit from a situation they will take it. That means that there should be hundreds of people popping up now to expose the "truth" but I just don't see it happening.

Conspiracy theories are fun,.. but they usually rely on a basis of a level of control over other people that is just unrealistic.

Besides,.. where did all this satellite technology we now use every day come from if we haven't gone into space? Or is it that we have gone into space but just not to the moon? And if we can get into orbit (and as far as the outer planets with various unmanned craft if you believe that) then what stopped us from getting to the moon?

And lastly: What is the government's motivation for lying to us all this time about going to the moon? Why such an elaborate hoax? What would it benefit them to do it? Going to the moon gave the already most powerful country in the world a small, and largely temporary, boost of prestige and little else. No other lasting benefit that I can see. So why go through all of it and have to build up a beaurocracy to keep up an impossibly complicated charade for decades?

StormHammer
06-28-2003, 09:43 PM
Personally, I choose to believe men have set foot on the moon. While it might have been some grand and elaborate conspiracy, I consider that highly unlikely. If anything, it's an insult to those who have striven to seek answers in space, and belittles the lives lost in the pursuit of such a noble goal as space exploration.

Yes, it is possible to fake some things, and we certainly should not believe everything we may see on TV or in other media. On the other hand, we can be too cynical, and sometimes should invest a little more faith in things we may not fully comprehend. After all, it's our faith in our own abilities that drives us to excel...

Lion275
06-28-2003, 10:10 PM
Personally, I choose to believe men have set foot on the moon. While it might have been some grand and elaborate conspiracy, I consider that highly unlikely. If anything, it's an insult to those who have striven to seek answers in space, and belittles the lives lost in the pursuit of such a noble goal as space exploration


I agree, anyone that says other wise is intitled to their opinion, theres no doubt in my mind, i bealive any one who said we havent been to the moon has either been taking fictional stories too far or has sat waay to long on the computer

RoguePhotonic
06-28-2003, 10:21 PM
Well with the astronauts...many of them die in weird ways....15% of nasa's astronauts have died in freak accidents....like one guy...he was gonna come out and say something....a week later his car was hit by a train....never found out what he had to say :p

Redwing
06-28-2003, 11:03 PM
The moon itself is a hoax.

:D

Lion275
06-28-2003, 11:08 PM
oh come on! :p

Silent_Thunder
06-29-2003, 04:31 AM
Anyone with the slightest bit of common sense realizes that martians made the foot prints and planted the flag on the moon and gave the footage to the US (and President Bush is actually a martian... obviously).

RoguePhotonic
06-29-2003, 04:45 AM
People talk about the flag like there is one up there.....

There isn't.

Semicolon
06-29-2003, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
People talk about the flag like there is one up there.....

There isn't.

Wha!!!! No flag??!!!??

Darth Rythe
06-29-2003, 06:53 AM
i'm confussed!

RoguePhotonic
06-29-2003, 07:44 AM
lol I mean while we are saying it's fake people are acting like..."well if it's fake then how did the flag get there"....

One thing I find odd that I have not seen anyone say is....is the moon flat or somethin?...you see an image and the moon cuts off like 30 feet away.....looks like a movie set to me...

Nitro
06-29-2003, 01:27 PM
Here's a little experiment... It's pretty cold on the moon's surface (for the most part), right? Space is cold, right? That flag looked like it was made of some pretty rugged material, right? Get a heavy flag, and cool it to somewhere in the range of 0 degrees K. Then hold the flag up and see if it sags a whole lot...

It wouldn't be quite that cold, which would explain some momentum-induced rippling, and Zoomie's threaded wire theory would be in place as well, but I think I've made my point.

Nitro
06-29-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
One thing I find odd that I have not seen anyone say is....is the moon flat or somethin?...you see an image and the moon cuts off like 30 feet away.....looks like a movie set to me...

The moon's a sphere... And a much smaller one than the earth. The curve, and subsequently the horizon, would be MUCH closer than it is on the earth.

Being a sailor, I know the earth looks the same way... From a small boat (ie, not a supertanker), you can't see much further than 4 and a half miles ahead of you.

SqRt(height above surface in feet / 0.5736) = distance to horizon in miles

I'm 5'10, which puts my at about 5.33 feet above my feet. At the highest point on my sailboat where one can safely stand, I might be 6 feet above the water, so add that to the 5.33 feet my eyes are above that, and you get 11.33.

11.33 / 0.5736 = 19.75

The square root of 19.75 is 4.44.

Four and a half miles... Now the moon is about 2200 miles in diameter, giving it a circumference of about 6900 miles. The earth's diameter is about 8000 miles, giving it a circumference of about 25000 miles.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, almost all the camera shots were taken from about eye level, so let's do some more quick math.

We'll put the camera on earth at, say 6 feet. Using our formula, that puts the horizon at 3.23 miles away.

Now, if you divide 25000 by 8000. you'll get 3.125... Meaning that you'll roughly be able to see 3.125 times further on the earth than the moon. At 6 feet, that puts the horizon at about a mile away... Just down the road.

Not quite 30 feet, but I'm sure you were using a hyperbole anyway.

edlib
06-29-2003, 03:31 PM
There's also no atmospheric haze or distortion, so no visual sense of distance. Objects on the horizon appear as clear as objects next to you.
On Earth the appearance of objects get fuzzier with distance, even on the clearest day. On humid days this is pronounced and exaggerated quite a bit.

There is never a humid day on the moon.

RoguePhotonic
06-29-2003, 08:11 PM
well it's just blackness at really about 30 feet.....

Zoom Rabbit
06-29-2003, 09:24 PM
Silent Thunder: Actually, President Bush isn't a Martian. He's a human/lizard man hybrid, according to some whack-o--I mean, esteemed intelligentsia who discusses the matter here:

http://www.davidicke.com/icke/temp/reptconn.html

When you follow a rabbit down the hole, you never know WHAT you'll find. :max:

RoguePhotonic
06-29-2003, 10:03 PM
lol....I think **** like that is put out by the C.I.A. to make people with real points look stupid..like mike ruppert...

Nitro
06-29-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Zoom Rabbit
When you follow a rabbit down the hole, you never know WHAT you'll find. :max:

The bottom? A rabbit? Pornography?

Father Torque
06-29-2003, 11:05 PM
Ummn hate to break it to ya Zoom, but leXX already made a moon fact or hoax thread. Which included the exaxt same stuff. But i still think we did:)

edlib
06-29-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Nitro
The bottom? A rabbit? Pornography?
Close. The bottom of a rabbit, who's engaged in creating pornography.

Or just some dirt.

Sorry,.. I just don't like to really think about what's actually down a rabbit hole. Seeing Watership Down really traumatized me as a child.

Silent_Thunder
06-30-2003, 01:58 AM
Ah, so Bush is actually a cyborg/lizard.. makes more sense now.

Seriously though, I honestly can't believe people think that the moon landing was faked... But at the same time I find it kind of interesting to find out how they think...

Just a questions to those who think the moon landing was faked... Do you believe that we as humans have the ability to reach the moon if we so choose? Also, has any human even been outside of our planet's atmosphere? Are we capable of sending out probes and satelites into space? If not, where do people get satelite TV, and satelite internet connections? And GPS signals?

By the way... I was also traumatized by Watership Down aswell... lol. (Still am :p).

Zoom Rabbit
06-30-2003, 02:07 AM
The fact that Lexx has already done a thread on this controversy means precisely what? :dozey: If I haven't seen it, we can also assume that other forum members haven't as well. Never mind that we're *newbies*...we have valid opinions, too. Besides, unless Lexx is about three shades weirder than I think she is, her topic probably didn't involve the possibility of the moon itself being a hoax...

:max: Anyway.

My main reason for believing in the authenticity of the moon landings is pretty simple. I've been to Kennedy Space Museum and seen the spacecraft firsthand, fingered the pitted Apollo capsule's heat-blasted hull for myself. Those men went somewhere that involved the heat of re-entry in coming home, which means space. Since just getting into space is ninety percent of the hard part...why not go to the moon?

Some say that the Van Allen radiation belt around the Earth would be a problem, and would cook astronauts alive. Well, yes it would unless you suited them up in a shielded capsule and then shot that through the radiation belt at speeds fast enough to escape the Earth's gravity, which would minimize exposure to it. Which is exactly what they did.

Here's a question I hear on this subject: 'If we really went, why haven't we gone back?' My answer is that there isn't much there to go for. Next question, please. :D

'Do you think the US government is incapable of lying about something like this?' Well, no. I just think they're incapable of pulling it off. :dozey: I have met two people in my lifetime that had been involved with NASA back in the day. They built rockets to go to the moon, and they didn't lie when they told me about it.

My final argument is OF COURSE WE DID...because we've had retro-engineered flying saucers since 1947. ;) Heck, we've probably been to Saturn already, but they'll never tell us about it.

RoguePhotonic
06-30-2003, 02:10 AM
Just a questions to those who think the moon landing was faked... Do you believe that we as humans have the ability to reach the moon if we so choose? Also, has any human even been outside of our planet's atmosphere? Are we capable of sending out probes and satelites into space? If not, where do people get satelite TV, and satelite internet connections? And GPS signals?

Well of course we could go to the moon if we wanted to but why would we want to?

Some say that the Van Allen radiation belt around the Earth would be a problem, and would cook astronauts alive. Well, yes it would unless you suited them up in a shielded capsule and then shot that through the radiation belt at speeds fast enough to escape the Earth's gravity, which would minimize exposure to it. Which is exactly what they did.

No...they didn't lol....it has been said that it would take 6 inches of solid lead to protect them from the radiation...and the thing was a tin can...

Father Torque
06-30-2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
Well of course we could go to the moon if we wanted to but why would we want to?

Because its made of cheese:)

RoguePhotonic
06-30-2003, 02:20 AM
oh yeah and when not sure which moon landing it was....it was during one of the largest solar flares ever recorded...and this causes the radiation to go up to 10X worse than normal....

Nitro
06-30-2003, 02:51 AM
We've been to the moon, and it's not a miracle...



We just decided to go.

Drivian Taluus
06-30-2003, 03:30 AM
The moon? Of course we've been there! We've been there, what? At least twice, right? I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories. They all reek of the whacky tabaccy if you ask me. Elvis an alien? Of course not! He was a communist spy! Michael Jackson? Communist. Saddam Husein? Uh, also communist, but angrier.

legameboy
06-30-2003, 03:39 AM
We've been there, seen that... :D

Zoom Rabbit
06-30-2003, 09:27 AM
Gee. The Apollo capsule in Florida that I saw was no tin can. ;) It was more like a steel diving bell.

I cannot emphasize enough that the astronauts were exposed to very little of the Van Allen belt's harmful radiation. Okay, think of the Van Allen belt as a layer of sulphuric acid clouds way up in the sky, and we want to get something through it. If we fly up with a remote spy plane and try to break those clouds, we will see the plane dissolve in mid-air as it tries to climb hortizontally through them. Now...if we were to send up a rocket, which travels straight up vertically at a much faster speed, it will punch right through with minimal corrosion. Coat the rocket with a thin layer of pyrex glass, and you have something safe enough to take a mouse or three right through the dangerous acid clouds.

On the matter of Emperor Bush the lizard man, I should point out that Icke thinks Tony Blair is one as well. :max: Sorry to our English friends, but it appears that the *lizard plot for world domination* affects you guys as well.

edlib
06-30-2003, 11:48 AM
My views on conspiracy theories (posted earlier in another thread, but still kinda applies here.)

Another thing that just struck me about this: (a major fundamental problem with all conspiracy theories)

If this conspiracy is as vast and powerful as he says, and that if anybody dares try to expose the truth is silenced and vanishes,.. HOW DOES HE MANAGE TO GET AWAY WITH IT? He should have be erased from public memory as soon as he found out the truth, and LONG before he ever managed to publish a tape, let alone a web-page.

There's an old axiom that says: "Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction." I'm sure you've all heard it a hundred-thousand times in your lives. Well, the corollary to that is "But almost all of the time the truth is far, far duller than fiction."

If the government put together a huge network of agents employed for the sole purpose to keep astronauts and people involved with the faking of a moon landing film production quiet, then how in the world is someone like this guy allowed to produce a film exposing the whole thing as fake, with a website to sell this film, and manage to get away with it? How did he get hold of the pictures and film used to expose this fraud if there is a huge paranoid conspiracy around keeping the public from finding the truth? And lastly,.. with cool digital tools like Photoshop, how can we ever be sure that the producer of this film, who is most likely selling it for a profit, didn't doctor REAL images to make them look fake?

Ray Jones
06-30-2003, 12:17 PM
imagine you were the one on the moon (or some), or you are the one who has the major part on the project. And after manymanymany mistakes, faults, accidents, moneylacks and more .. you finally made it. and someone comes along says: NOPE. YOU FAKE! And uses some pics where the source is hidden/not clear for evidence. And i never heard a explanation for the evidences. and i wasnt on the moon and i could not say how dust must be assembled up there etc.? ..


SO its clear. Mankind was on the moon under the exclusive leadership of .. ZOOM RABBIT. yes. (The humans were bad, so ZR went to walk the moon alone, therefore only ZR-Footprints are up there.)

*ring, ring. recieves some credits from unknown source.*

ps. to the government: i denie to denie deniance for knowledge of the unknown. so ask the one over there.

*points to nowhere, runs off.*

toms
06-30-2003, 02:34 PM
there used to be this cool late-night discussion programme in the UK with some comedian as a host and a few intelligent people/scientist experts. They would basically get on lots of people with odd beliefs (yetis, aliens, loch ness monster etc...) and then basically mercilessly rip their arguments to pieces... it was most fun.

Anyway, the onlyone i ever saw where they all came away BELIEVING the "wierdo with odd ideas" was the moon landing one. There was just so much evidence that it was faked that they all ended up convinced.

Personally, i think we went, but i think the pictures were faked... after all, they had to put on a show for the american public. :D

RoguePhotonic
06-30-2003, 07:33 PM
Well people that worked on the movie probably lived on the base where it was filmed....

And a guy making the site...nothing you can do because it's a (you decide thing)....he just takes images that we have all seen many times and sees the faults in them....


and what is this acid cloud invisible?....


In the end it really doesn't matter what is true or not...because there is so much that says we haven't gone and so many unanswered questions that I could never say being 100% sure if we went or didn't....like this show I watched on tv said...if only a handful of people know about it like a circle of old men like the X files.....we may never know.....



Like did you know that a plane never hit the pentagon on 9/11....there is allot of strong stuff supporting that one..yet so many unanswered things like ok then where is the missing plane?

ShockV1.89
06-30-2003, 08:14 PM
Way too much X-files...

And my uncle watched the plane fly into the Pentagon. A friend of mine who transfered to DC to take a management position at Best Buy was outside taking a smoke break and he saw the plane crash into it. I suppose they're in on it too?

RoguePhotonic
06-30-2003, 09:06 PM
Well if it's true that a plane hit it...then every last piece of it..I mean EVERYTHING even the black box was completely disintegrated...and I guess this would be the first crash in history that.......that happened.

I have an image of right after the plane was supposed to have crashed and there was no hole in the building yet (it was caused by the fire) and there is no evidence of a plane at all....maybe i'll post it in a sec....I used to have a site that said many reasons why it didn't happen but Id on't have it anymore...

RoguePhotonic
06-30-2003, 09:30 PM
ok here we go these are taken of the exact spot the plane was suppose to have hit.....they are HUGH images so they can be looked at in detail so hope your desktop res is not to low...will be hard to view...

http://rogue2020.tripod.com/image1.html

Look at the lawn and stuff...only a few stones from the building....

the site I said had info on it had some pretty good facts....like if you see only the bottom floor is knocked out..and it said how high the plane was and how high the building is...and how the hell could only the bottom floor been knocked out...

It also said the first report on that day was a truck bomb and that the government quickly turned that down and said it was a plane....but...truck bomb...hense bottom floor gone.....

Ray Jones
07-01-2003, 09:11 AM
Do you actually know how it looks if a plane crashes into the pentagon????????


Oh man. this pic is saying NOTHING. It doesnt even say its the pentagon. Maybe its the same site from that moonlandingfake??

It like saying at the shop: That Item is too expensive. .. Compared to what?

So first of all a crashing plane comes from the sky. With speed-o-much. If this is the front of the crashsite. then all of the plane will be behind the building and the smoke.. PHYSICS, you know?


so. get a damn photography from ABOVE the site.

grmblfx.

Darth Rythe
07-01-2003, 09:25 AM
I'm still confussed:confused: :confused:

Zoom Rabbit
07-01-2003, 09:37 AM
Remember the airliner that crashed in the Everglades a few years back? Even from the air, there was no sign that it had gone down at all, except for some disturbed vegetation. Mud sucked the wreck right in.

:dozey: I suppose that crash was a hoax, too.

(First time ever saying) okay, back on topic. :) Roguephotonic, the acid cloud I mentioned was a make-believe way of illustrating the Van Allen radiation belt problem for us on a scale more easily understandable. Unless perhaps there REALLY IS a giant acid cloud somewhere :D causing acid rain and eating a hole in the ozone layer. Hm.

Let's go back to the 'people making the movie living on a base' theory for a minute. Might work while they're making the movie, but once the project was done, they would filter back into the real world with a lot to talk about. And you couldn't keep them behind barbed wire at the base, or simply kill them--the loss of the sort of filmmaking talent that would be required to fake that footage in those days would not have gone unnoticed by the public.

So. :D Unless you can show me the newspaper clipping from the late sixties that mentions an entire film crew gone missing...I ain't buying it.

RoguePhotonic
07-01-2003, 10:29 AM
I have seen top down views..left right..all kinds of ****..nothing....have you heard any talk about that plane at all?...them getting parts?...black box?...nope...never heard a thing about it....I don't know..I truly don't...and I really don't give a ****....I just like to know the truth....I mean I know that they knew an attack was going to happen on 9/11...I know that they let it happen in their own interests...but why lie about a plane?...don't know


as for the film people...you think they are going to let some fool off the street walk in and make this for em?....I think not...who knows..


Remember the airliner that crashed in the Everglades a few years back? Even from the air, there was no sign that it had gone down at all, except for some disturbed vegetation. Mud sucked the wreck right in.

So your saying that every last piece of it was pushed into the bottom windows?....as you can see most window's on the building are still unbroken......we are not talking about a swamp here...this is the side of a building with a lawn...

and what do you mean would be behind the building...it ran into the side of a wall....and I don't recal reports of the plane smashing into the rest of the pentagon...if you know how it's shaped and all :rolleyes:


i'll search for the site...may find something...

oh yeah and comparing it to what?...any other plane crash I have ever seen....

edlib
07-01-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
Look at the lawn and stuff...only a few stones from the building....
...truck bomb...hense bottom floor gone.....

This actually makes less sense than a plane impact. Truck bombs (or any kind of bomb detonated from a stationary position) tend to explode in a spherical pattern, unless the charge is carefully directed to blow in one direction, which takes a lot of time, and a HELL of a lot of expertise. So, there should be a lot more debris and scorched grass than is visible if it really was a truck bomb, not to mention a crater at the absolulte ground-zero (where the truck was parked.)

No, it looks to me that the Pentagon was hit with something moving pretty damn fast. All the debris from the outer wall would have been carried inside with whatever hit it. Pretty simple physics. So this leaves an airplane, or perhaps a cruise-missle. This is really all just speculation on my part however, since I have no training in that level of forensics, and I highly doubt that most of the people using these pictures to "prove" that the damage couldn't be caused by a commercial airliner are either. But I do know a little bit about how physics and the universe works.

Since there's already a commercial jet-liner missing, I can see no logical reason to want to needlessly create multiple entities (invoking Occam again.) Otherwise, you have to explain why there is a jet missing as well as what impacted the Pentagon. Presumably, the jet would have had to be shot down, by US warplanes, probably after being forcably directed far out to sea since no debris has ever been found. But why? If somebody was setting off bombs or lobbing cruise-missles at goverment buildings, why would they bother to go after this plane? We also know that sombody was using similar planes to fly into other targets (the WTC towers, unless sombody also wants to try to convince me that footage was also faked)

Listen,.. I'm perhaps one of the most cynical and suspicious people you will meet when it comes to our government, especially our current administration. A good amount of paranoia is, I believe, in this day and age a healthy and nessisary thing. This theory you presented just seems illogical to me, however. Building a conspiracy for conspiracy's sake.

RoguePhotonic
07-01-2003, 11:00 AM
Yeah true about the truck bomb...I don't believe this with my life or anything...I just note it....and holy **** I found the site!!...though I do have to say a couple of the things they say are stupid...such as why did they dump dirt on the lawn..(to help the tractors work)...and how could the plane only damage the first ring..(they just remodeled it to make it stronger)


http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

Ray Jones
07-01-2003, 12:28 PM
yeah, edlib's right. and needless to say that the 9/11 was 'the day of crashing planes' .. so why the hell fake that pentagonplane? to get peoples attention away from WTC so that noone recognizes the WTC collapse??

Zoom Rabbit
07-01-2003, 10:20 PM
Edlib is quite correct. Paranoia these days is not such a bad idea, given current political goings on. I know that I watch the press lie their asses off on American teevee whenever I happen to watch it these days. But it's important not to get carried away with paranoia...or indeed too deeply into any search for meaning (see sig for more on *meaning.*)

The mind is an unruly beast that would find meanings everywhere if allowed to charge madly ahead with the task. :) At some point, one should say 'I can't know or understand everything in this big, crazy world' and let the matter rest.

If you let your 'mind horse' gallop off in search of answers on its own, it will come back with all sorts of notions like lizard people ruling the world, a government clever enough to fake moon landings and then keep the matter concealed, and little green men that beam you out of your room for a flying saucer ride every tuesday night...

Sorry to get all zen there. :D It's actually this simple: keep it real, dog.

RoguePhotonic
07-01-2003, 11:41 PM
Well I keep an open mind with all this stuff because the government brainwashes people to no end...and I wont be one of those people....

It's kinda funny though..most people are brainwashed so bad that if the governement straight up told them the truth to their faces they wouldn't believe it....:D

ShockV1.89
07-02-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic


It's kinda funny though..most people are brainwashed so bad that if the governement straight up told them the truth to their faces they wouldn't believe it....:D

This can go both ways...

Darth Rythe
07-02-2003, 07:27 AM
I think everybody should just think what they want to think and leave it at that.

Ray Jones
07-02-2003, 07:32 AM
what do you mean by brainwash? Hawk once got brainwashed in AIRWOLF. but i never on tv. hey .. i have a brain to use it.

to those paranoias .. the first ques you should raise is WHY the hell? .. You dont go around fake people for no reason .. so firsttell me the reason and then tell me WHAT they are planning to do with us folks........

Hey and most of them paranoias are chirstians and so on.

EVER GOT THE THOUGHT THAT THIS IS CONSPIRATIVE? i mean.. the earth was a plate until 1999 or so.. hey THIS is what i call lying. ..

Darth Rythe
07-02-2003, 07:39 AM
what?

Ray Jones
07-02-2003, 08:07 AM
eh... nuttin'



..

RoguePhotonic
07-02-2003, 10:01 AM
No way would I get into all the brainwashing stuff....to harsh of a subject.....

mainly because allot of people are so far gone they cannot be reached...and these people you have to watch out for....

Zoom Rabbit
07-02-2003, 10:15 AM
Well, my opinion of brainwashing is--*Gurk!* This is a recording. This rabbit has been reprogrammed by the Department of Homeland Insecurity as an *unknown future viewpoint* risk to sing Danny Boy upon hearing the keyword brainwashing instead of spreading dangerous unmisinformation on this ludicrous social/political topic. OH DANNY BOY, THE PIPES, THE PIPES ARE CALLING YOU--so we don't have to worry about that at all.

Really. :max: Just paranoia.

edlib
07-02-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
mainly because allot of people are so far gone they cannot be reached...and these people you have to watch out for....
I believe the guy in your avatar said something similar to that once... :p

:joy:

RoguePhotonic
07-02-2003, 10:35 AM
Believe what you want....the subject is to massive for a forum....

It's not worth the time when even if people see it they reject it because it pretty much says that everything you believed about the u.s. your whole life is bull****....i've seen it happen....my dad finally after months reached my uncle...you could tell he saw the light and he said "I cannot....I will not believe this".....it really is to harsh....like my dad said...it's very depressing stuff...

edlib
07-02-2003, 12:12 PM
Yes,.. but what is reality? Each of us lives in a different reality from everyone else.

For each of us our universe is very personal. Reality is nothing more that the connections our mind chooses to make based on the things we have personally experienced with our senses, and those things that have been taught to us that we haven't personally experienced, but have chosen to believe are true.

If you choose to believe that lizard men control the planet, (even if you haven't actually seen those lizard men with your own two eyes, and are relying solely on conjecture or 2nd or 3rd hand information,) then THAT will become your reality, part of your personal universe, and you will begin to see the "proof" and undeniable of your assumptions everywhere.

EXAMPLE: Christians choose to believe that every good thing that happens in thier lives is ABSOLUTE proof of God, and every bad thing that happens is also proof of Satan and his demons interfering in human affairs, and that everything that happens on the world political scene is Biblical Prophesy being fulfilled, paving the way for the return of Christ. A really devoted Christian will never be able to be convinced otherwise.
Yet, those very same events looked at by an athiest will have a radically different interpretation. Who is right. Well, unfortunately they both are. Each of those people live in seperate universes where the rules dictating thier existances are different, and incompatable.
Human interpertation colors every event in history. We will never know the abosulte, uncolored truth of the past because such a thing has never existed. I honestly have no proof that the universe even existed before 1974 (the time of my earliest memories) yet I choose to believe that it was here before I existed, and that it will continue on without me, although in a very important way for me the world was created when I was born, and will cease to exist when I die. I cannot prove that any of you really exist either, or that if you do, that you are living, breathing, intellegent, sentient life-forms and not just AI programs responding to me to humor me. That is an assumption that I have chosen to make to get me though the day.

I choose not to believe that everything we have ever been taught is false. I know that technically, from a certain point of view that some of it is,.. but really, what is the truth anyways? If I am the only witness to an event then my version of things is the truth, even though a camera placed at the same location might reveal to you a different interpretation.
If everybody chooses to believe a certain account of events, then that becomes the truth. Billions of people belive in a spirit world, and an intellegent, personal, all-powerful creator who formed the universe and has a day-to-day effect in these peoples lives. The relatively small number of true athiests out there will say it isn't, but that doesn't change the universe for those that believe, beacause doubters are part of that overall scheme of things, and they are there to test the faith of the true believers, and will be shown the truth someday and have thier eyes opened.

Can anyone prove that there is a God? No... You have to accept it on faith.
Can anyone prove that there ISN'T a God either? No... It's also impossible to disprove the existance of something that you can't show exists.

Can you show me proof that the world is one giant conspiracy enslaving the human race? No... You can show me the things you accept as proof, but since I don't feel enslaved I will always interpret those things in a different light, and will never see what you are seeing. Does this mean I'm brainwashed? Perhaps in your mind it will.

But if I feel free, and truly believe that I am able to exercize my own freewill,.. how can it be that I am not free? My perception of my own freedom is ultimately all that really matters.

ShockV1.89
07-02-2003, 12:31 PM
Like I said above, the brainwashing can go both ways. I've begun to believe that there are people who have been brainwashed into seeing giant conspiracies everywhere.

edlib
07-02-2003, 12:53 PM
That is also true,.. although these people are usually the ones doing the brainwashing to themselves.

Ray Jones
07-02-2003, 01:59 PM
edlib.. what you say is right.. again .. TOTALLY RIGHT.

i divide these what is the truth or not thingsys: The truth and the FACTS.

Truth is interpretation. Fact is what actually EXISTS.

e.g. Whatever rain is in called/interpreted/whatever in which REALITY isnt important.
Fact is it RAINS. And rain is rain as it rain is. .. hm. hope you get it..


another thing.. see i dont believe in gods etc .. i dont believe this biblestuff and so on all that darkbadworldcrap and hellNstuff..

but if you watch at the sense it keeps deep deep in it ..

who and why could someone write down such early "laws", coz it is a law in the farest contex.. (these 10 "orders" [what is it called in english])

Zoom Rabbit
07-02-2003, 07:45 PM
Ray: we call those the 'Ten Commandments.' ;)

Edlib is extremely right. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. My own conceptualization tool box includes these three notions:

Belief is an idea that you think fits what you see around you, but cannot prove.

Truth is an idea like belief, except that it can be proven from the subjective point of view.

Fact is like truth, only it can be proven objectively.

To use those terms properly...I believe in basic human goodness, and it's true that love exists in the world, but it's a fact that we frequently botch things up with guns. :D

RoguePhotonic
07-02-2003, 09:09 PM
We are not talking conspiracies here...we are talking like say something is happening...they tell you why they are doing it...when they are doing it for a whole different reason....it's brainwashing you into believing they are doing some good thing...


You all are saying truth is whatever you see it....1+1 is 2 is it not?...or is that just an opinion....guess if it is believe what ya want...but I kinda like to think it =2 :D


There is a truth though...a harsh truth...and that is the only reason there isn't world peace today....is because of the U.S.

Zoom Rabbit
07-02-2003, 09:50 PM
You are so lucky I'm the next post following yours. :dozey:

RoguePhotonic here is exercizing a right that is basic to the American way of life: free speech. I will then with complete irony flag this thread as American :usa: and say in public that RoguePhotonic must be allowed to speak his opinion peacefully without everyone flaming him for what he has to say.

I've been watching this thread, and no one's flamed yet, even RoguePhotonic (who claims to have been banned in the past.) :) I'm so proud of everyone.

Let's agree to disagree, and keep the conversation civil. :max: Carry on.

RoguePhotonic
07-02-2003, 10:25 PM
lol freespeech has many limits...i'd say other country's are more free than this one when it comes to that.....

I try not to even get involved in threads like this anymore...that's why there has been no flaming....I keep what I say to a minimum...

edlib
07-02-2003, 10:56 PM
No,.. no flames here. I just really like to get at the underlying philosophies that really drive each of us, and then compare notes. That's where things get interesting, and where the real story of the human condition is told.

Facts.

Hmmm... What are they? Personally, I prefer to think of them as beliefs that we have all collectively agreed to be on the same page about. Yet, there are certain things that I, and almost everybody else, may regard as fact that others might have a hard time with. Like the Earth is spherical. I think most of us here regard that as a cold hard fact. Yet a member of the Flat Earth Society (http://www.flat-earth.org/) just might debate you on that one. I also take the speed of light as the ultimate speed limit of the universe as a fact, yet I cannot prove it, either to myself or to anyone else. I can't even prove the figure we regard AS the speed of light is what it really is. It could be about 300 MPH for all I know. I have to accept it as the truth, and that it is a fact.
I happened to regard man walking on the moon and that a commercial jet liner smacked into the side of the Pentagon as universally accepted facts before reading through this thread, but we have seen how that isn't quite the case.
There's a lot of "facts" that I learned in grade school that I have had to unlearn as the years go on, and as new things are brought to light. Especially in the field of world history, but also in a few other fields. The entire realm of physics has changed several times in the last couple of centuries, and continues to change at a fairly rapid clip today. The theory of the birth and eventual death of the universe has undergone startiling transformations since the subject was covered in a class I attended in grade school. I accepted what was taught to me then as fact, and now that it has changed I review the new information and decide what are the facts we are working on now. Until they change again. Time and time again we ahve seen how people can stare at a sheet of uncolored, raw data and come to a startlingly wrong conclusion, have it published, universally hailed, accepted as a solid, unarguable FACT,.. only to be torn completely apart years later by some graduate student working on an otherwise throwaway dissertation.
"Well," you say, "there are facts that can never be dismissed. Like going out in sub-zero tempratures with no clothes on, you will freeze to death!" Well, there's a group of monks who live in Tibet who are just waiting to prove you wrong. They do it all the time. They don't give it a second thought, staying out all night on the side of a mountain in the feezing cold. Oh well.

Even facts can be malliable and liquid. It all depends where you are looking at them from.

RoguePhotonic
07-02-2003, 11:51 PM
I also take the speed of light as the ultimate speed limit of the universe as a fact

We have found things going faster than the speed of light...I amnot sure what they are called though....

edlib
07-03-2003, 12:14 AM
Tachyons. But I think they are still theoretical, although current physics doesn't totally rule them out.
You can use quantum tunneling to travel faster than light, but that's still in the earliest infant stages of experimentation, and may never have a practical use above the sub-atomic level.

Both are described here: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html

RoguePhotonic
07-03-2003, 01:25 AM
Sadly being born in a time like this we wont see anything that matters happen...

Tyrion
07-03-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
Sadly being born in a time like this we wont see anything that matters happen...

ok,let's say furturistic medicine so you can live up with 120 years. Now,let's provide that there's no WWIII's or anything catostrophic happening in that time. So, considering a BUNCH has happen in the last 80 years(almost everything about Atomic and Nuclear Physics), and the fact that we can do more than we used to be able to do with everything new(theories and things) it could,indeed,happen.

RoguePhotonic
07-03-2003, 03:06 AM
Technology wise much can happen...people wise nothing.....

Zoom Rabbit
07-03-2003, 09:30 AM
I'll take this one. :)

Au contraire, my friend! Let's leave the squalid and dangerous picture of the human condition that we're facing today and back way, way up in order to see the big picture. :D

We started as smart monkeys in the jungle who learned how to make fire, and spent millions of years doing pretty much just that until a smarter monkey figured out how to melt rocks with fire. We then took a few thousand years to refine our art of rock-melting, until only a couple of hundred years ago did we use the melted rock (metal) to begin making machines to do our work for us. In only a hundred years those machines took to the air, in fifty years they split the atom, in twenty-five they started rudimentary thought...and today, machines are on the brink of self awareness at the same time that they are shrinking to sub-atomic size. :dozey: Technology is pretty much in the bag.

But what about us? Our standard of living improves as the technology does, but that isn't all there is the humanity's well-being. A future of pasty, bloated button-pushers who shrink from the sun is not one we want to see...but many of us looking in the mirror each morning are headed in exactly that direction.

Here is where I exercize free speech. :usa: Flag, see? :max: Anyway, it's my humble opinion that our future is much brighter than that. A human...is a spiritual being, as much as an animal, and our spiritual awareness is on the brink of a major renaissance. Our global culture is beginning to see the obvious--all of these religions that we've created during our history seek to exclude one another because of traditional cultural competitiveness (with a few exceptions), but really the goal of each of them is essentially the same. The born-again christian compares his experiences with the hindu who has achieved 'moksha,' and they compare theirs with the native american shaman...and eventually it becomes clear to all of them that they have some things in common. This emergent philosophy of 'all religions' is what we here in the US call the 'New Age' movement; but make no mistake about it--the phenomenon is global.

More and more christians are being 'born again.' The same is true for hindus and buddhists becoming 'enlightened.' Casting religious distinctions aside, more and more people are becoming spiritually awakened. Mankind is going through the next step in their evolution (again, in my opinion) right now. In order for us to become the peaceful, wise people we can be--and frankly in order for us to grow up in time to deal with this technology thing without killing ourselves--we need to do this, and on a higher level we all realize this. :)

We can't change overnight, though. As an amorphous blob of thoughts and opinions, the human superconsciousness is more general than specific when it comes to matters of philosophy, and it needs to absorb these new ideas. In order for this to happen, unfortunately, we have a painful period of adjustment to go through first. :dozey: Which is why stuff sucks so bad on the news these days.

So, buck up trooper! :D We'll all be just fine in the long run--better, even, in an exponential manner that will be able to keep up with our technology. In the near future, though, things might get worse before they get better.

Anyway. My two cents on the big picture of humanity, its technology and their continued existance in the future.

RoguePhotonic
07-03-2003, 09:42 AM
Well I mean human wise it wont because no one cares about the real big picture (the universe)...people just want to rule the world...those who do care about more than power it's a worthless care because they can do nothing....like our planet...so ****ed up..trashed, bad air and all...it could all be cleaned up...why isn't it?...$$$ greed, power.......

After all why make the world a better place for future generations since we wont be alive to enjoy it :rolleyes:

Zoom Rabbit
07-03-2003, 10:04 AM
My point is...fewer and fewer people are thinking like that.

Just talk to people, see what they think! Don't go with what 'you see to be happening,' because that's just one point of view. ;) And don't be afraid to talk about politics and religion--you've been doing just fine here. One should get a number of viewpoints, from different types of people, in order to get an objective 'big picture.' Everyone who thinks that the way we do things now is wrong is open to doing them better. :D There's the hope.

Ray Jones
07-03-2003, 12:31 PM
wow.. whats going on here..

ZOOM and EDLIB .. you take the words dirctly from my tounge ..

(please put them back... ;P)

With facts i meant the things we KNOW and even DONT know.. they are as they are even if we dont recognized them yet.

THEORIES change with the time.. e.g. GRAVITY ..
but gravity, call it what you want and explain it like you want..

GRAVITY does what GRAVITY is doing..

THAT is a fact.. is IS. If we can handle it or not.

a theorie is an attempt for the causal explaination of a fact.

KBell
07-03-2003, 12:39 PM
My friend once bet me $50 that it wasn't called the Law of Gravity :p.......easiest $50 i made in a long time :D

edlib
07-03-2003, 12:57 PM
Well, I agree with Zoomie that for mankind to reach the next stage of evolution we need to lose our competitive nature. I don't mean losing our desire to root for the home team in the big game, but in seeing the big picture globally.
At the moment we define ourselves in small groups. Willing to defend to the death the few natural resources and territory that we have claimed as our own. Very reptile mind driven.
Ultimately, if we ever want to make progress we will have to lose, or at least learn to control that tendency, and see ourselves as a single species, with a common goal of survival, and expansion into the solar system and eventually the galaxy and the rest of the universe. I think our technology will go a long way to accelerating that. On these boards alone you can converse with people from dozens, if not hundreds of different nations, and you begin to see that they are no different than you. I think the Net is still in it's very beginning stages, and eventually every person will become instantly connected to every other person, and then we will start to see national boundries start to soften, then eventually melt. Religious differences will become less devisive. And what we now define as racial difference will cease to exist. (Yes, I know this all sounds very "Star Trek," but if we ever want to get off this planet we will have to work together, and pool our collective resouces.)
This will all take a while,.. generations at the very least, and none of us here now may be around to see it come to it's conclusion, but I personally think we are on the gound floor of the revolution that will change human history and evolution forever; by learning to silence the little reptile in our minds that drives us all to hoard whatever we find valuable and lash out violently at whoever we believe is trying to take it from us.

Ray Jones
07-03-2003, 01:49 PM
hey.. just what i thought. just what i think everyday.



!!!!!!

It's not you and me its us at earth. and we all "die" (evolutionairy) or we all SURVIVE .. it is FACT that we have to leave this planet in a couple of billion years (as human beings, life will leave the planet at any case or has already left) ..

Our evolutionairy path is to become a SPACERACE .. (:D ) .. and the way is already preset.

Zoom Rabbit
07-03-2003, 07:46 PM
Which is why we went to the moon. :dozey: Just as soon as it was technologically possible to do so.

edlib
07-03-2003, 08:04 PM
And the thread has now come full-circle.


Wow. How often does that happen?

Agen
07-03-2003, 08:43 PM
Go into a Saber code thread, you'll see what i mean :D

RoguePhotonic
07-03-2003, 09:36 PM
lol...I still can't think we went to the moon...

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 07:42 AM
so then lets keep attention for avoiding a paradoxon..!

Err, RoguePhotonic..

do you believe anything, that mankind "shall" have been done? For instance.. do you believe "them" if they say we where in space..? Do you believe up there is "space" and "the moon" and "the sun"..?

Do you think they believed Christopher for "discovering" a new continent?? What do you say about: inquisitiveness and inquiring minds?? Do you think we ever "WILL GET" to the moon?

RoguePhotonic
07-04-2003, 08:01 AM
Yes I believe we have gone to space lol...who wouldn't.....as for the moon I think we will go there once we begin living there...

Zoom Rabbit
07-04-2003, 08:17 AM
So you're saying that you think we'll go to the moon when we're prepared to colonize it? Hmm. :D

*Shhhk--! Tranquility Base, this is Houston. It seems you fellas are gonna have to...um...stay there. Over.*

Well, when we *do* start going to the moon, we'll have to start small. A small capsule with a two-man lander, perhaps... ;)

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 09:02 AM
RoguePhotonic: As Zomm said .... . . . .. .... *g* ZOOM said.. Do you think it's possible to go to the moon first time and establish a moon base at the same trip?? If you think so..
THEN you must be thinking that together WITH cristopher columbus came half U.S.-inhabitants to the continent.. building NYC, Hollywood and Disneyland.
THEN you must think the first computer was as good as a P4 ..
THEN you must think the first man climbes the mount everst is still living there in his tent. (yes of course he established a settlement there called "the cool ones")



Oh, and what do you think about that mars robot and stuff??

RoguePhotonic
07-04-2003, 09:05 AM
wtf are you guys talking about...this is a rock..the ONLY thing that would need to be done before setting up a base there is scout out a sight...and do whatever to make sure that sight is good.....of course if people start living there you will have to go out and put a flag up and make some foot prints :D

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 09:07 AM
Errm Rouge.. MARS!!!

ps. HONESTLY answer my questions...!!!

RoguePhotonic
07-04-2003, 09:13 AM
Oh do I think one could be set up in one trip...one could..but most likely wouldn't....this has nothing to do with past trips to the moon though...(if there was any)

oh wait...mars?...what do I think about that?...I have no reason to doubt that happened..though ugh...that small of a step is stupid...I think it's to just flash something to the public like "yeah yeah we are working on it" then hold off doing anything real for 50 years...

Bush you can tell all believes in god...and well guess anyone that does thinks we shouldn't leave this planet....I have heard people say many times "if man was meant to be out there we would have been put out there"....all I can say to that is...**** YOU! :p

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 09:28 AM
i dont want to bother you..

..but i think there are quite some inconsequences in the way you "feel" .. You say 'we'll be on the moon if we live there' on the other sid you go 'yes of course it cannot be done in one step'

I think you like to say some just to be against and the real 'argument' is ignored by you because you have an opinion that is the ONE. But you wont get right by just saying NO. You have to but up some arguments.

You dont answer questions that will def lead your argumentation into unlogical nonsense. I think you are bothered by some governmentissues or some sillypeople and now you are resignating or somelikethat.

So. last try: MARS ROBOT?? Mars explorations??? Is it true?? Fake pic's? Why shouldnt we have made the FIRST step to the moon already? Was it impossible? Do you think it would have been made no sense to go to the moon? does it make sense now? does it made sense to go and explore earth in the early years ..???

RoguePhotonic
07-04-2003, 09:35 AM
:disaprove

wtf does standing on the moon and going wow have to do with setting up a place to live?....sure it can't be done in one step...as in take some **** up there...set it up..get a few people living there bring more ****...years of building and doing ****...that's what I mean by not in one step...why shouldn't we have made the first step for the moon?...probably because of our technology...and the need to be there...why would we need something set up there right now?

I thought I answered mars above...

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 09:36 AM
Bush you can tell all believes in god...and well guess anyone that does thinks we shouldn't leave this planet....I have heard people say many times "if man was meant to be out there we would have been put out there"....all I can say to that is...**** YOU

Err. as you may recognized .. we are OUT THERE .. on earth?? remember that??

and another thing .. life doesnt MENTION some creature to whatever. phh. ok. stay at home. resignate.

Hey oh. You said uoy kcuf???? You should have said this to me, pinkypal.

*goes off*

Hey Mr. Bush .. here's my report. Read it. Look at this silly sucker. He doesnt believe your lies.
:rolleyes:
And now excuse me Mr

RoguePhotonic
07-04-2003, 09:38 AM
I hope you are not talking to me with the out there thing because I sure's the hell don't believe if we were meant to be out there as it was said that we would have been put out "there"....

and why should I have said **** you to you?....

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 10:01 AM
WELL. Then .. (i had one eye closed .. reading that particular messi.. eeh .. while i was up to do my TAICHI. )
..ask them do THEY have a proof that we are NOT had been put out there?? .. :p

RoguePhotonic
07-04-2003, 10:06 AM
A question like that is to much for their brain :p

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 10:43 AM
..way too much.



Some day mankind will know the moon as the thing that flew around that planet we lived on once upon a time.. We'll live in HUUUUUGGGEEE Starships (likely artificial planets) containing a whole species of spacehumans. We will be spread over the whole universe .. perhabs "global village" turns into "universed village"

Perhabs the question will be: "Has mankind visited the parallel universe?"

Zoom Rabbit
07-04-2003, 07:01 PM
Ray, I don't think we'll persuade our friend here about the moon landing matter. I think he's just arguing against in order to play *devil's advocate* anyway...

;)

Let's do be civil, though, and allow others to have whatever opinion they want. Remember, everyone has a God-given right to stick their head up their own ass. (Just kidding, RoguePhotonic.) :D

RoguePhotonic
07-04-2003, 07:23 PM
I choose not to believe we went to the moon because of overwhelming evidence that we didn't..plain and simple...

I doubt we will ever live in massive ships like the death star lol...maybe only if we were in search of a new world to set up on because the earth was dead or something...


"Has mankind visited the parallel universe?"

I really doubt it....if the theory of an opposite parallel world is true people don't put it on the right scale...they look at it like if I am nice here...I am an ******* there...no..more like you are alive here...not there....infact earth all this wouldn't be there....

Ray Jones
07-04-2003, 08:23 PM
i'm peaceful... i .. err. ok. sometime i didnt found 'my' way yet. you know .. some edges .. thank you rouge for helping me growing ..
:p
please be assured i let other people think what they want. who am i that i tell other people wath to think (brrrainwash) .. i dont want to get telled (???) what i have to think..

;)

i'm calm now


*rrrzzzzrzzzzzzzzz*

edlib
07-05-2003, 01:48 AM
Parallel universes are a necessary by-product of quantum physics and the wave/ particle duality nature of matter (the aforementioned Schrodinger's Cat is a classic example of this; until you open the box the cat has to exist in at least 2 states simultaneously.)
The theory of parallel universes came out of the experiment where you fire a stream of single photons through a barrier with 2 slits cut into it. Cover the left slit up and fire though the other one, and you see a pattern of the other side consistent with the stream of photons coming through the single opening. Same thing with if you cover up the right and do the same thing. But if you uncover both slits, but only fire through one side (let's say the left) you end up a result that should only happen if you were seeing particles coming though both slits and interacting with each other! This has long been explained that light (in the form of photons) is a wave as well as a point-particle. That means the rest of matter has to fit this description as well.

But there's another possible explanation: In an nearby parallel universe an alternate you is performing the experiment at the same time, only choosing the RIGHT slit to fire through. The particles you see as a waveform are actually echoes from those other alternate realities interfering with yours, where history is almost identical, but where you in that reality has chosen to make a single different decision.

Heady stuff.

Silent_Thunder
07-05-2003, 03:12 AM
Uh.. can you explain that experiment in alittle more detail... I'm interested... but you really lost me there about covering up both slits and firing through the left one (??). But I would actually like to know how that experiment proves parallel universes. Thanks.

By the way... The USA is not the reason why there's no world peace today... Unless you think that if the world would be in "peace" if it were controlled entirely by communist or dictatorship countries -- which is probably what would happen if the US didn't exist in the last 80 years. It really sickens me when people go so far as to blame the US for every problem in the world, but at the same time expect it to FIX every problem in the world once it starts to affect them. Especially if they live in the country they apparently hate so much... I think those people should just move to China or something (and learn Gung fu while they're there). That way they'll get even more reasons to complain about America ruining the world.

BTW Rogue, if you want to make your world a cleaner place why don't you pick up all the trash you see, or try to invent something to help purify the air, instead of just complaining about it... Or try and start some kind of "Trash awareness" organization. Fact is we're MUCH cleaner as a whole than we were 200 years ago... But you can never stop every single person from littering or polluting... its just not possible.

No, I don't like polluted air from factories as much as the next person, but have you ever visited a volcano or lava flow? Mother nature's pollutants are much more powerful than anything we can create... Factories don't even come close. I know it doesn't do any good to add to natural pollutants... but atleast HUMAN waste makes up a VERY small percentage of the "harmful" pollution on the earth.

Anyways... I don't want to get any more off topic so I'll stop... but a few points people brought up in this thread forced me to reply.

By the way, I like Bush a lot as a president, even though he's a lizard cyborg man.

PS, speaking of air liners... If you think the world is just a polluted mess with litter everywhere, then just look out the window next time you're flying long distance... Especially over the rocky mountians.

RoguePhotonic
07-05-2003, 06:30 AM
Well natural pollution is allot better than the **** we put out....

Of course I don't blame the U.S. for every problem..most all other problems are because of religion..

as for trash if people didn't throw trash down I would pick up all I see...but why pick it up if more will be there tomorrow...**** it....


Of course though my views on how polluted the world is, is probably pretty off because I live in bakersfield california...I mean this town has been rated 2nd worst air in the world....

Zoom Rabbit
07-05-2003, 09:33 AM
You know, if I lived in Bakersfield, I'd probably think everything was ****** too. ;)

*(Sticks a 'republican' label on Silent Thunder.)* :max: Carry on.

Quantum physics is indeed heady stuff. :D I tend to go for the 'multiple parallel universes' explanation myself...for reasons that are ridiculously mystic. :dozey: You see, when grappling with this whole fate (God has set events in stone so to speak) versus free will (we choose, and our choices shape the following reality) philosophical conundrum, it comes down to a simple 'which is it?' Do we have free will, or does God decide everything and we only *think* we have a choice? Well, the parallel universes theory explains this problem for us handily. In a sense, the shape of events is already set--but only in the really, really BIG picture that has all of these timelines and cat realities interweaving and branching out like live spaghetti. But also, we make the choices that decide which strand of spaghetti we're standing on now.

Did that make sense? :) Aw, who cares...anyone bring garlic bread?

Ray Jones
07-05-2003, 10:29 AM
Silent_Thunder .. what you are saying makes kind of sense ..

I think if parallel universes are depending to another .. it is .. connected .. as you say it is..

*reads zooms post. again..*

hey zoom. this is kind of mystic. why do you have those 'timline spaghetti we grab the event' thoughts??????????

how do you came on this.. Are you infiltring in my brain Z???

i wonder if others will have such "simple normal" explanations for the unknown .. no i dont claim to be the only one who figures out some like this....

*krrrk fascinating*

edlib
07-05-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Uh.. can you explain that experiment in alittle more detail... I'm interested... but you really lost me there about covering up both slits and firing through the left one (??). But I would actually like to know how that experiment proves parallel universes. Thanks.

It doesn't really prove anything, since everything that happens at the quantum level is so strange and foriegn to human understanding there could be another explanation for it we just haven't discovered yet.

This is the article I read that explained this theory the best: http://www.discover.com/sept_01/featsecret.html

Some other related ones:

http://www.physicspost.com/articles.php?articleId=10

http://www.physicspost.com/articles.php?articleId=112

http://www.sciencenook.com/gdt/nt_iipw.htm

http://www.wordless.com/cgi/article.asp?ArticleId=21

Zoom Rabbit
07-05-2003, 07:46 PM
Well, Ray, the whole quantum spaghetti model only occured to me because I'm a cook in real life. One day I dropped a meatball into a vat of spaghetti noodles, and the truth was only obvious from there. :)

Actually, you already answered your question. I am a mystic...and these days mystics think about a whole lot of stuff besides religion. :D You just might be one, too.

Darth Rythe
07-06-2003, 03:27 AM
quantum spaghetti??????????
Now this is freaking me out.:confused:

Zoom Rabbit
07-06-2003, 09:16 AM
Don't be scared. Eating quantum spaghetti isn't all that difficult. You twirl the noodles around the fork like normal spaghetti--you just have to be prepared for either the fork being in any given location on its way to your mouth, or the spaghetti noodles having no finite length in a three-dimensional universe.

:) Wear a bib.

edlib
07-06-2003, 09:27 AM
AND it goes well with Graviton Sauce. ;)

I recommend starting with a nice, irrational-number salad, a little loaf of realitivistic bread, perhaps some anti-particle antipasta, and a carafe of multi-dimensional wine.

Ray Jones
07-07-2003, 11:16 AM
..travel
but if ..
.. time

possible ..
it is.. you think?
goes time .. forward!!
to
how .. back ..

then .. time.. have to.

process same. the time .. all
and backwards.
??

Zoom Rabbit
07-07-2003, 11:25 PM
Kids, what happened to Ray just now is a perfect example of why you should never conceptualize a singularity into existance by messing with nonlinear time. Stay away from singularities! Quantum theory is not a toy for the idle mind.

:max: Safety first.

RoguePhotonic
07-08-2003, 12:38 AM
lol I love that though...start talking about something and people look at ya like ???.....you lost em with the first sentence.:D

lol i'm a teddy bear now eh?:chewie:

edlib
07-08-2003, 01:39 AM
Yes,.. but a quarrelsome one. Which means we have to bring the big gun with the heavy-duty trank-darts when it's "Quiet-Time" for you.

:joy:

RoguePhotonic
07-08-2003, 02:50 AM
:rofl:

Damn straight you need the big ones...I got big claws...

Zoom Rabbit
07-08-2003, 05:23 AM
I did it. I just couldn't stand to see you branded a 'DJG' like all the rest of the riff-raff...

Feliz Navidad. ;) Until it gets reset.

Homuncul
07-08-2003, 02:10 PM
It doesn't really prove anything, since everything that happens at the quantum level is so strange and foriegn to human understanding there could be another explanation for it we just haven't discovered yet.

It doesn't prove if solely in quantum theory assumed. The problem with proving multiverse exists is a new direction in modern science and it also gave a great impact on epistemology itself so many old conservative scientists today still rely on induction method or a pure logical model proof which is proved to be invalid. The multiverse is not solely explained in terms of quantum mechanics but also in terms of genetics and biology itself, quantum computation, quantum consciousness and many different modern directions.

Of course their can be another explanation but multiverse explanation is the best we now possess. I've read some things it and makes great sense for me.

It resolves so many unexplained things that science has been stuck to for morethan a hundred years. Por ejemplo multiverse xplains time paradoxes, life's fundamentality, our ability to build a perfetc computer and therefore be closer to understand of what's real. It raises new horizons for scientists in creating time machine, building quantum computers performing operations in multiverse, advancing nanotecgnology with better background judgement. I can name more. The difference today for such theories is not it's "invalid" proof (it is considered by many scientists), but the valid explanation we must make for people who still live in classical universe.

edlib
07-08-2003, 08:00 PM
Yeah,.. I happen to like it too.

Seems a more elegant solution to a lot of the universe's mysteries than trying to envision a writhing quantum foam occasionally spitting out the odd particle and occasional universe for no good reason.

Zoom Rabbit
07-08-2003, 08:17 PM
The foam is useful if you're having a bad hair day...

Don't use too much of it, though! Look what happened to Einstein's hair. ;)

What I find curious about the current quantum multiverse theory is that it matches the 'subspace' model they put forth in Star Trek. We can add it to the list of 'things they got right' in ST, which now includes cell phones, floppy diskettes and voice interaction with computers.

Of course, my computer doesn't listen to me at all. :max: I'm probably not saying anything it wants to hear.

edlib
07-09-2003, 01:42 AM
No, you are just not speaking it's language.
It was most likely made in China or Taiwan...

Or if it's a Dell, both those places, as well as Texas.

Hmmm... Chinese spoken with a Texas accent... no wonder it can't understand a word you say.

:joy:

Homuncul
07-09-2003, 04:44 AM
I didn't like subspace at all. It's more like hyperspace to me, an old men crap of sci fi. Still if they sometime later prove their superstring theory it would be a serious background for considering multiverse worldwide and include it in school books

Homuncul
07-09-2003, 04:50 AM
But there's another possible explanation: In an nearby parallel universe an alternate you is performing the experiment at the same time, only choosing the RIGHT slit to fire through. The particles you see as a waveform are actually echoes from those other alternate realities interfering with yours, where history is almost identical, but where you in that reality has chosen to make a single different decision.

I love these things. You know that late theories about quantum consciousness are based on these things. They discribe our brain as quantum computer connected to the multiverse counseling him about different decisions.

Mort-Hog
08-24-2003, 01:40 PM
More proof!

http://brainsluice.tripod.com/moonlanding.html

|GG|Carl
08-24-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
More proof!

http://brainsluice.tripod.com/moonlanding.html
^Bump!


lol. That's funny!:D

Arreat
08-24-2003, 02:20 PM
Oh come on, how obvious is it? NO ONE LANDED ON THE MOON. I remember watching a documentary of basically the same thing on TLC. They had VERY solid and convincing points. Not only that they even had some points that that site backed up.

EDIT: LMAO That site cracked me up!

Mort-Hog
08-24-2003, 04:24 PM
Anyone that seriously believes in the NASA conspiracy nonesense needs a solid punch in the face, from a concrete glove, with glowing hot pointy needles sticking out. The 'theories' were developed by the russians right after the moon landing because they were bitter about not being the first to the moon. Still, they were the first into space. Hooray for Sputnik! But anyway, the theories have been thoroughly disproved, and yet some people still spout them. Some Americans, too, spouting Russian propaganda.. It is interesting how this propaganda has spread. Communist propaganda always was so much better than American propaganda. But anyway, every time the theory is spouted, as it has done a dozen times in every message board on every forum in every corner of the internet, the same old points are brought up, and the same old counter-points to disprove them, and yet still it goes on! It is silly.


If you want a REAL conspiracy, look no further than the Dr. David Kelly 'suicide'...

Arreat
08-24-2003, 06:22 PM
How'd you get custom title when your below 1000 posts?

RoguePhotonic
08-24-2003, 06:47 PM
Oh no what's this thread doing back! *puts on flame suit*

The Cheat
08-24-2003, 06:52 PM
there is no way that conspiracy is true, its a whole bunch of bogus nonsense that somebody made up

Zoom Rabbit
08-25-2003, 08:55 AM
THAT!

...is the funniest thing I've seen all week! :D Thanks, Mort-Hog.

Dr. David Kelly. :dozey: Suicide...riiiight. If anyone actually believes that man committed suicide, then also feel free to check my ad on E-Bay, where I have a piece of the True Cross up for bid.

Howdy, Roguephotonic. :) Flame you, sir! FLA-AAAME!

Arreat: I believe that the only possible explanation is that our friend here is actually George Lucas, lurking in on his young Star Wars fans. ;) Sorry to blow your cover, George. Take a bow!

GUNNER
08-25-2003, 09:13 AM
Yes we went to the moon. I have spoken so this debate is over.

end of discussion. Period.












:cool:

Neverhoodian
08-26-2003, 02:09 AM
I personally believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that we landed on the moon. (and guess what? We did it more than once!) However, the motive might not have been an entirely benign one. (trying to find ore on the moon to use for nukes) The space race ultimately benefited mankind immensely. Because of it, we have so many luxuries, like cell phones, satellite TV, weather satellites that can predict weather fairly accurately, and more. However, there will always be those who will think conspiracy-mindedly. Here is the main reason why I don't think the moon landing was a hoax...

Okay, let's pretend that the landing actually WAS a hoax. That it never happened...okay...then may I ask, what's the point of staging such an elaborate hoax? To scare the Soviets, you say? Come on, the Cold War is over. An official would have admitted that it was a hoax by now. Another thing to keep in mind is that if it was a hoax, why did successive missions come about? The government could've just done that one landing and call it a day. But think about it. The reason why we kept coming back is because we wanted to know if any nuclear materials could be mined on the moon! The Cold War was in full swing, after all, and we wanted to stay ahead of the Reds in weapon development. Consequently, we went to the moon to find any weapons-grade nuclear material. We couldn't find any the first time, so we kept coming back to see if we could find any on another area of the moon. The government finally gave up, and moon landings were halted. After the Cold War, there was no longer a pressing need to build any more nukes anyway. Hence the reason why there have been no more moon landings.

Now this is not saying that I don't believe in conspiracies. Just look at Area 51. The government is DEFINATELY hiding something there. I don't believe for an instant that it's aliens, though. Here's what I think; its a secret military test facility to test new weapons and combat aircraft. After all, if someone saw a stealth fighter making a test run over Area 51 in the early '80s, they would think that it was an alien craft. ;)

Hope I didn't offend anyone with this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I just thought of giving you mine.