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View Full Version : Why wasn't the Death Star a rebel weapon?


The Cheat
07-18-2003, 11:59 AM
ok i have come to believe that the seperatists are what will become the rebel alliance, and they are the ones that are building the death star right? so why dont they get it? its like they are building an awesome weapon for their enemy. That would be like the US developing the atomic bomb and giving the two they made to japan. Why dont the rebels get this weapon? they made it, how does the empire get it? I would figure after Dooku dies and Mon Mathma takes over she will want to use the Death Star for good or maybe not use it to completly destroy planets.

benTantilles
07-18-2003, 12:57 PM
dude... the separatists DON'T become the rebels. the separatists were a group of people who grew discontent with the republic...their actual separation was orchestrated by the emperor himself (the then-senator palpatine) to give him an excuse to have access to emergency powers- the first step in his transition to emperorhood. the separatists were probably destroyed during or immediately after the clone wars or turned after palpatine's promise of removing corruption and apathy from the republic.
the rebellion, however, was created by a merger of 3 resistance groups (mon mothma's, organa's and bel iblis's) who wanted to oppose the tyrannical policies of the New Order. their existence was a result of the Emperor's dictatorship and not one of his scheming plans.
hence, it's not logical to assume that the death star would've been in possession of the rebellion just coz the separatists invented it. (now how does THAT fit into the maw installation theory?!)

pbguy1211
07-19-2003, 05:19 AM
well... dooku has the plans for it anyway. besides, the seperatists are all alien and the rebels we see in the OT are mainly humans.
I'm waiting to see how poggle and the TF come to an end in the 3rd. do they die by the republic or the emperor?

The Cheat
07-19-2003, 05:47 PM
ok, thanks for clearing it up for me guys

Redwing
07-20-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by pbguy1211
well... dooku has the plans for it anyway. besides, the seperatists are all alien and the rebels we see in the OT are mainly humans.
I'm waiting to see how poggle and the TF come to an end in the 3rd. do they die by the republic or the emperor?

Dooku isn't an alien. ;)

Species can't really be used to determine side, although Imperials do have more humans...

benTantilles
07-20-2003, 10:04 AM
the rebels were predominantly human in the early stages of the rebellion coz it's 3 constituent resistance groups-bel iblis's, mon mothma's & organa's- were of human origins. once the rebels began to spread their wings, many alien species were assimilated into the rebellion til they eventually outnumbered 'em.


Species can't really be used to determine side
well...not in the case of the NJO, anyway...
actually, come 2 think of it, even then, some vong were fighting on the known galaxy's side and some humans were fighting 4 the Vong.

lukeiamyourdad
07-20-2003, 08:26 PM
Don't mix up EU stuff with movie facts...it shouldn't be mixed;)

benTantilles
07-21-2003, 12:21 PM
oh yeah...they're so cohesive, it's hard to distinguish 1 from the other...

is there another reason, aside from going off-topic, that i shouldn't mix em?

superracer0022
07-21-2003, 12:22 PM
i was thinking that the seperatists were what would become the rebels as well but i didnt know how it was the joining of 3 groups so now i understand

boinga1
07-22-2003, 12:36 PM
Three groups= EU.
Seperatists are not the Rebels.

Jedi_Monk
07-22-2003, 07:36 PM
Repost:
As for any relationship between the Separatist Movement and the Rebel Alliance--I don't believe it exists. The motivation behind the Alliance is to reinstate the Democratic Republic, whereas the Separatists are trying to secede from that Republic. Lucas also makes it very clear in the screenplay (if not in the movie) that the Separatists have a fascist undercurrent:

Padme: ...I know of your treaties with the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guilds, and the others, Count. What is happening here is not government that has been bought out by business... It's business becoming government!

And in the immortal words of F.D.R., "Fascism is what happens when corporations run the state." The Empire and the Separatists show two sides to fascism: the Empire is a military dictatorship, the Separatists are a corporate dictatorship.

shukrallah
07-23-2003, 05:36 PM
man... i was hoping for some easy answere like 'cause the imperials made it, they kept it...' this thread wasnt what i expected :D lol episode 3 will reveal the answeres to all of our questions, and if it doesnt, then its a screwed up movie ;)

The Cheat
07-23-2003, 07:57 PM
yeah i guess i will just wait 2 more years to have all of my questions answered at last

lukeiamyourdad
07-23-2003, 08:13 PM
EU stuff is NOT created by George Lucas so it should NOT be taken for evidence. To try and prove something from the movies you have to go with things that Lucas created NOT some EU facts that might not be exactly what Lucas has in mind.

Jedi_Monk
07-24-2003, 02:45 AM
Very succinct, lukeiamyourdad. Well put!

lukeiamyourdad
07-24-2003, 05:32 PM
Thank you:D

Jan Gaarni
07-26-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
Repost:
As for any relationship between the Separatist Movement and the Rebel Alliance--I don't believe it exists. The motivation behind the Alliance is to reinstate the Democratic Republic, whereas the Separatists are trying to secede from that Republic. Lucas also makes it very clear in the screenplay (if not in the movie) that the Separatists have a fascist undercurrent:

Again, this clearly strenghten the EU facts. ;)
So, the EU does explain how the Rebel Alliance come to life. :D

benTantilles
08-04-2003, 12:16 PM
EU stuff is NOT created by George Lucas so it should NOT be taken for evidence. To try and prove something from the movies you have to go with things that Lucas created NOT some EU facts that might not be exactly what Lucas has in mind.

since when did star wars only cover what george lucas had in mind for it? george lucas himself approved of the idea of creating an OFFICIAL expanded universe of star wars... everything that's the EU now would've been subject to much scrutiny at the hands of lucas licensing & other lucas-affiliated organizations. The only reason why there's a distiction in the significance of movies--canon--and the EU--continuity-- is for the sole application of precedence when a contradiction occurs between the 2. that's undoubtedly mr lucas's idea as well. to question to official validity of the EU is to similarly question whether the movies have official priority over the EU.

To try and prove something from the movies
that depends on the basis on which you're evaluating the validity of that 'something'. if u wanna try and prove whether it's official or not, then sure, factor in the EU. however if u wanna prove whether it's george lucas's idea or not, then of course, exercise PLENTY of discretion when taking the EU into account for the obvious reason that most of what's in the EU isn't gL's idea.

the EU is official. the events described in it are officially what's happened in the SW universe, save what has been flatly contradicted in the movies.

personally, though, it's up to you whether u wanna include the EU in your own star wars universe. but if u don't, and only want 2 include what was thought of by George Lucas, then here's a point to bear in mind: not all of the stuff featured in the movies are george's ideas. if u wanna disregard whatever wasn't thought of by GL, you're gonna end up calling coruscant hab abbadon (sp?) coz coruscant was coined by the prominent sw author timothy zahn. u might wanna start calling wedge antilles chewie as well, coz the latter was GL's name for him... wedge, i believe, was some other guy's idea. There are tonnes of other material out there which're included in the movies but weren't devised by GL, but i can't possibly know all of em.


I, personally, love the EU...and, i think, regardless of whether u choose to include it in your own version of star wars, u gotta admit it's done a lota good 4 star wars, rite? :)

lukeiamyourdad
08-04-2003, 03:05 PM
Lucas approves EU but may not necesarily like it or it may not be his idea. Look at Boba Fett. He's alive in the EU but Lucas clearly stated that in his eyes, Boba Fett was dead. True Coruscant was Zahn creation but the name Coruscant only. I you read the first thrawn trilogy(the only eu books I like as a matter of facts), some kind of mountain appears in it.

It is stated that Luke woke up and looked at that mount which name I can't remember. where is it in the movies?

eu turned star wars into old pure sci-fi crap with the NJO serie. It is now a war between races, an old story told by so many sci-fi books. The true thing that made star wars unique in my eyes it was the fact that the battles were fought between humans and not aliens vs. humans or anything. eu turned this factor into crap.

GL might just have signed his agreement but this does not mean anything. He might not even hav read the books. No matter how entertaining you can find eu, never must it be taken into consideration in a movie argument.

Jedi_Monk
08-04-2003, 03:43 PM
The EU was pulp sci-fi crap long before NJO. Zahn started it on this heinous road with his first book.

I'd compare his trilogy to Batman Forever, Joel Schumacher's first time directing in the Batman franchise. On its own, Batman Forever is a pretty fun and enjoyable movie, but in light of Shumacher's second effort, Batman and Robin all of the flaws stand out starkly and you can see exactly how that led into this.

While on its own, Zahn's trilogy is good, in the context of the rest of the EU, it becomes a virtually unforgivable effort that drained the mythology from Star Wars literature.

More and more, the EU is becoming the AU, the Alternative Universe. It does not co-exist with the continuity of the movies. When it comes to Canon, there are several things I look to:

1. The movies are at the forefront, and both by a casual observance and a deeper viewing, can offer many insights.
2. Interviews with Lucas are invaluable for learning about things that exist in his imagination but, for one reason or another, could not be included into the movies.
3. Lucas' scripts and drafts can also give us insight into Lucas' thought process; what he intended, and where he might be going.
4. The Making of and Art of books can give us insight into how the Star Wars galaxy, its inhabitants and technology function. Lucas shares a lot of his ideas with his art department to keep them on the same page as himself, so that they will accurately render what he sees in his mind's eye.

So, in brief, when participating in a debate dealing with the canonical SW universe, we base our arguments on our interpretation of celuloid, and Lucas' intent.

Jan Gaarni
08-05-2003, 03:38 PM
eu turned star wars into old pure sci-fi crap with the NJO serie. It is now a war between races, an old story told by so many sci-fi books. The true thing that made star wars unique in my eyes it was the fact that the battles were fought between humans and not aliens vs. humans or anything. eu turned this factor into crap.
That is not true.
It is a war of a galaxy including most the races, including humans, against a tyranic, largly human dictatorship. The humans in these movies are for the most part the evil.
And that is what I like about Star Wars.

It's not another "humans are the good guys and are being attacked by a fears alien race" (ID4 for instance, although that's a very good movie, don't get me wrong :) ) kind of movie.
Here, the human race are the oppressors. And aliens and good humans fight side by side to end it.

I do agree about the NJO though. :)
That just should never have come out.
And I haven't even read it yet. :D

It is stated that Luke woke up and looked at that mount which name I can't remember. where is it in the movies?
Don't get me wrong, but that's a weak argument. :)
That's like saying, "in the script it said this and this and this, but where is it in the movies?".
And since the movies are the ultimate canon, then it should appear in it aswell, right? ;)


EDIT: Also, this is canon (primary to secondary to etc....)
Movies.
Script.
Novelization of the movies.
Radio dramatisation of the movies.

The rest that is official is EU.

And that which is not official should be discarded when studeing Star Wars.

lukeiamyourdad
08-05-2003, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
1.That is not true.
It is a war of a galaxy including most the races, including humans, against a tyranic, largly human dictatorship. The humans in these movies are for the most part the evil.
And that is what I like about Star Wars.

It's not another "humans are the good guys and are being attacked by a fears alien race" (ID4 for instance, although that's a very good movie, don't get me wrong :) ) kind of movie.
Here, the human race are the oppressors. And aliens and good humans fight side by side to end it.

2.I do agree about the NJO though. :)
That just should never have come out.
And I haven't even read it yet. :D


3.Don't get me wrong, but that's a weak argument. :)
That's like saying, "in the script it said this and this and this, but where is it in the movies?".
And since the movies are the ultimate canon, then it should appear in it aswell, right? ;)


EDIT: 4.Also, this is canon (primary to secondary to etc....)
Movies.
Script.
Novelization of the movies.
Radio dramatisation of the movies.

The rest that is official is EU.

And that which is not official should be discarded when studeing Star Wars.

1-That's what I said I doN,t see why you...

2-Exactly

3-Actually it is NOT part of the script only part of an EU book therefore my argument is still good.

4-hmm why are you going against me when you're a semi-purist/purist?

Jan Gaarni
08-06-2003, 04:27 AM
1-That's what I said I doN,t see why you...
I missunderstood then. :)

I apologies.

I'll shut up now. It seems bad things come out of my mouth when I open it lately. :D

And for the record, I'm a Star Wars Fan.
That means I love all that is Official Star Wars, except for a select few things (Sun Crusher, NJO, just to mention a few :) ).

I also have a different way of looking at it. I look at it as history. Thus nothing is right or wrong, only false interpetation of the past, which is already difficult enough to obtain seeing it takes place in another galaxy. :D

lukeiamyourdad
08-06-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
I also have a different way of looking at it. I look at it as history. Thus nothing is right or wrong, only false interpetation of the past, which is already difficult enough to obtain seeing it takes place in another galaxy. :D

Hmmm... well let's say that eu is mainly a false interpretation of the past:D

Jan Gaarni
08-06-2003, 07:31 PM
Well, if you look at it that way, then the Imperial Star Destroyers in the movies can't be 1,600 meters long. :)
Scratch that, that was weak. :D
You can actually calculate to around that size from the movies, even though it has never been mentioned the lenght in any canon source. :)

Only EU has mentioned the length. Hmmm, they got something right. How is that possible? :D
Of course, it totally screwed up the lenght of the Executor many places, and the width of atleast the second Death Star. ;)

lukeiamyourdad
08-06-2003, 07:33 PM
Actually it is as stated in many documentaries and the databanks I believe....

Jan Gaarni
08-06-2003, 07:44 PM
Databank is just official, it is not canon. It is EU, as it expands on the Star Wars knowledge. :)
That's what EU is. :)

lukeiamyourdad
08-06-2003, 07:57 PM
Everything that's listed under ''The Movies'' banner is canon.

Besides, EU is in my opinion every Star Wars book that has been written, who do not represent the movies (such as the NJO). This is mainly considered EU. The length of a an ISD or stats of whatever ships has never been considered EU.

Jan Gaarni
08-06-2003, 09:33 PM
Star Wars Databank states that the Executor is 12,800 meters long.
Other EU sources claim it to be 8,000 meters long (ROFL :D )
The movies show that it is alittle longer than 17km long.
Very few EU sources support this, but they do excist. They either state 12.8 km or 8 km. More often the latter.

Databank states that the second Death Star is 160km wide.
Movies again show that it is more like 900km wide.

So either the movies are wrong (ultimate canon here :) ) or the databank is (EU site that gathers info from both Canon and EU sources :) ).

Now don't get me wrong. The movies has gotten other things wrong to, like badges worn by the Imperial officers in RotJ. Apperantly - if you take the movies as 100% pure fact and truth - the Emperor must have demoted many people since we last saw them. Jerjerrod, the guy that welcomed Vader in the opening scene, is supposed to be a Moff. According to his rank insignia, however, he is mearly a Commander.
Piett, which we know from the previous movie got promoted from Captain and straight into the Admirals chair, has been demoted to either a Captain or Commander again (think it was Captain).

In fact, all officers in the RotJ are either a Captain, or a Commander. :D

This is clearly a blooper and cannot be taken as a fact. :)
The only one that seems to have the right rank plaque is the commander that hands Luke over to Vader down on Endor's forest moon.

Also, the first mention of the length of the ISD appeared in one of West End Games' ... errr, games (WEG). :D
This is an EU source, but it has been concidered the correct length of the ISD ever since.
It's size has ranged from around 600 meters (original length, but got dumped), to 2-3 miles long (also an original length, but got dumped too apperantly), but ended up being accepted as 1,600 meters long.

lukeiamyourdad
08-07-2003, 05:36 PM
I do not take the movie facts only('cause it would be very stupid if an ISD was only 600 m long).

Like I already said this isn't about some vehicles stats, but the main plot and everything. to say that the rebellion was created by bel iblis, organa and mon mothma is kind of erroneous(sp?). Such things are considered EU since it's not stated nowhere in any movie (we will see in ep 3) that it was created by these three. We know Mon mothma is there and Bail Organa probably also plays a role but we do not know if they were alone or if someone else helped them.

Jan Gaarni
08-07-2003, 07:51 PM
Like I already said this isn't about some vehicles stats, but the main plot and everything. to say that the rebellion was created by bel iblis, organa and mon mothma is kind of erroneous(sp?). Such things are considered EU since it's not stated nowhere in any movie
Which makes it perfectly possible for it to be true, because it is not contradicted by a higher source (yet, and spelling is correct by the way :) ).
And Mon Mothma was one of the createors of the Alliance. It says so on Star Wars Databank under the Movie section. It must have been mentioned in one of the Canon sources for it to be in that section. :)

lukeiamyourdad
08-08-2003, 02:05 PM
ok mon mothma was a creator of the rebal alliance...but nothing says that bel iblis was!
Argh...EU is eu and canon is canon...I forgot what this was about....

Jan Gaarni
08-08-2003, 07:56 PM
Wel, technically, it was about why the Rebels didn't have the Death Star. :)

And the answer is very simple: Because the Empire had the plans for it. :D

Let's just leave it at that, shall we? ;)

lukeiamyourdad
08-08-2003, 08:43 PM
I guess so...eh anyway it was a ncie debate until it got totally pointless and people forgot what it was all about...

benTantilles
08-09-2003, 04:22 PM
Let's just leave it at that, shall we?
damn! i'm too late, then...

anyway, i just wanted to make 1 more point...

monk, luke... from what i can tell, u don't care much for the EU.... i may not understand your beliefs, but i respect them. hell, i've even got close friends who like star trek! nonetheless...the expanded universe IS official and as such, it WOULD be correct to give answer to the question in the starter post (which i doubt any1 here still remembers...:D) with information from the EU and then leave it to the recipients to filter out the stuff they don't personally consider to be 'star wars'....which is what i did.

and speaking of mon mothma... she's gonna be featured in ep III, rite? any idea as to who's playing her?

Jedi_Monk
08-09-2003, 06:00 PM
Tossing in again... the stuff under "The Movies" banner is not all canon because it uses things from the novelizations, which, while closer to canon than your average EU book or comic, because they're based off of Lucas' movies, are still EU.

The EU, while they are "officially licensed products", only reflect the "personal interpretation" of the Star Wars universe of their respective authors. Evidence suggests that Lucas pays just as much attention to them as he does me--which is basically nil. And at least I, here and now, have the resources of the Prequels to support my suppositions, something that a decade of EU authors didn't have, and therefore they have made some very bad guesses at the history of the Star Wars galaxy.

In one sentence, all of the Tales of the Jedi stories were wiped out of canonical continuity: "I will not allow this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years, to be split in two." As we know, the Tales of the Jedi books take place six to four thousand years before the movies, and the Republic is very present in them.

As the movies continue to discard the EU, it becomes more and more necessary for the EU itself to make a decision--to discard its own continuity in favor of the canonical sources, or to continue its continuity.

The movies and books no longer exist in the same continuity. The books have become an alternative universe, which is why they should not be used as evidence in debates concerning the movies.

That said... I believe Genevieve O'Reilly is playing Mon Mothma, and according to theforce.net, she's already finished filming all of her scenes, though she might get called back to do some pick-up shots after pricipal filming.

Jan Gaarni
08-11-2003, 05:56 AM
Tossing in again... the stuff under "The Movies" banner is not all canon because it uses things from the novelizations, which, while closer to canon than your average EU book or comic, because they're based off of Lucas' movies, are still EU.

Wether you like this or not, the novilization of the films, and even the Radio Dramatization of the films, are Canon according to LucasFilms policy.
It is your perogative not to concider these sources when answering people, but you can't change the fact that they are canon sources. :)

Again, this is canon sources, from most important to the less important:
Movies
Script
Novelization of the Movies
Radio Dramatization of the Movies (for those episodes that have them)
In a nutshell

I got the impression from Luke here that you knew this. :confused:

In one sentence, all of the Tales of the Jedi stories were wiped out of canonical continuity: "I will not allow this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years, to be split in two." As we know, the Tales of the Jedi books take place six to four thousand years before the movies, and the Republic is very present in them.
If you think about it that way, then in one sentence the movies have completly and utterly wiped out the age of the Republic even in the movies, as it now seem to say both that the Republic has lasted for a thousand years, and also atleast for a thousand generations aswell.
This is conflicting info here, so clearly there was some kind of clash that took place a thousand years earlier that nearly ripped the Republic apart. Which fits well with the war against the New Sith Order that ended back in those days. :)

lukeiamyourdad
08-11-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni

I got the impression from Luke here that you knew this. :confused:

Well I consider all the novelization of the movies to be quite true to the movie itself(with minor differences) and it basically can be considered canon.
Besides I never heard one of those radio novelization. Oh on second thought I have! Their basically summaries of the movies if I'm correct. Nothing different here neither.

It is true however, that EU seems like an alternate universe. In EU Jedi can love. In the movies they can't.

Jedi_Monk
08-13-2003, 03:23 AM
If you think about it that way, then in one sentence the movies have completly and utterly wiped out the age of the Republic even in the movies, as it now seem to say both that the Republic has lasted for a thousand years, and also atleast for a thousand generations aswell.
The "Thousand years", "Thousand generations" quotations do seem to conflict one another. Months ago I began a thread on the Prequels boards asking whether this was a contradiction, because I found that every other thing that had been considered a contradiction by one faction or another can be easily explained away by even a cursory viewing of the movies alone--yet this one perplexed me.

In the end, I believe it was JediNyt who gave the most satisfactory answer: the Republic has existed a thousand years, and the Jedi, like facilities of higher education in our own world, count a generation as a graduating class, i.e., Padawan graduating to the full Knighthood and creating a new generation of Jedi Knights every year. With such a reading the Jedi could indeed have been protecting the Republic for a thousand generations, while the Republic itself existed for only a thousand years.
Wether you like this or not, the novilization of the films, and even the Radio Dramatization of the films, are Canon according to LucasFilms policy.
It is your perogative not to concider these sources when answering people, but you can't change the fact that they are canon sources.
The novelizations are only canonical inasmuch as they reflect the movies.

As an analogy, I'll use the hierarchy of the Catholic Church (of which I am a member :D --of the Church, that is, not the hierarchy). Now, first of all I'd like to state I'm not here to get into a theological debate which could get this interesting thread closed or moved, so I'd like the analogy to just be taken on its face.

So, the analogy is this--The Pontiff of the Catholic Church, when speaking ex cathedra (that is, in his official capacity as leader of the Church), can make statements that are infallible regarding matters of faith and morals. A priest who repeats an infallible statement by the Pope is speaking infallibly. However, on other matters, and even in the interpretation of that Papal statement, a priest is fallible.

Basically, my point is that in imitating the movies, the author of a movie novelization is writing a work that can be considered canonical--but his interpretation of events, and his depiction of extra-movie scenes, is not. Once again, I recall the errancy in the Return of the Jedi novelization by James Kahn--one of the most obvious in the entire EU: in Obi-Wan's discourse to Luke immediately after Yoda's death, in which he confesses that Vader is indeed Luke's father and relates Anakin's history, he makes this statement:
"When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you to live with my brother Owen , on Tatooine..."
This was a revelation!

For years, fans had viewed Obi-Wan's confession in the Return of the Jedi novelization as a titillating extra-movie preview of the first three Episodes, regarding everything said in it as canonical.

I remember reading this novelization and almost jumping out of my chair when I discovered the "truth" about Obi-Wan and Owen's relationship! But then, nineteen years after its publication, the revelation is this--there was no revelation in the novelization of Episode VI, only a false lead.

In light of the Prequels, Obi-Wan's statement is revealed as utterly fallacious. Owen Lars is in fact Luke's real uncle, if only by virtue of marriage, and Obi-Wan has no relation to the moisture farmer at all.

This is a major inconsistency, and one, I think, that discredits the entire novelization genre from serious consideration in a purely canonical Star Wars debate. Only where the novelizations reflect the movies inerrantly, can they be considered truly canonical--and by that standard, you're better off just watching the movies.

Jan Gaarni
08-13-2003, 08:28 AM
In the end, I believe it was JediNyt who gave the most satisfactory answer: the Republic has existed a thousand years, and the Jedi, like facilities of higher education in our own world, count a generation as a graduating class, i.e., Padawan graduating to the full Knighthood and creating a new generation of Jedi Knights every year. With such a reading the Jedi could indeed have been protecting the Republic for a thousand generations, while the Republic itself existed for only a thousand years.
That's actually a very good explaination. :)
But it's still fan facts. :)
Official publication goes over that I'm afraid.

The novelizations are only canonical inasmuch as they reflect the movies.

Again, it's still canon.
And as long as it does not contradict the script or the movies, then all lower canon sources (that would be the radio-drama) and EU has to be consistant with these books, aswell as the script and movies.
Where it is not consistant with books or the script and movies, it is in error. Where it is not, it is correct.

If you go by only the movies, then you have very little info on the Star Wars Universe, atleast on the technical aspect of it.
The standard Imperial Star Destroyer is not 1,600 meters long because the movies never said it, and it's hard to calculate to it by viewing the scenes (though it is possible, but how many are going to do that?). And the ISD is not classified as an Imperial-Class Star Destroyer, that is again an EU fact to my knowledge, completelly ignoring the first EU publication that said it's an Imperator-Class back in 1978.
The Executor is not a Super-Class Star Destroyer, cause again, this is an EU fact. And concidering that the first publication of the Imperator-Class Star Destroyer was classified after the name of the first Star Destroyer of it's type, the correct classification would then be the Executor-Class Super Star Destroyer.

The list can go on and on.

Movies tell a story, but you know nothing much beyond that.
If that is enough for you, that's fine. :)
But I like going deeper into Star Wars.

Admiral Vostok
08-19-2003, 02:13 AM
Ah! A Canon vs EU debate, my favourite! The problem I find, Jan Gaarni, is the "deeper" you go into Star Wars - this means going into EU - the shallower it gets.

As lukeiamyourdad will no doubt agree, I'm the expert on this at the Galactic Battles.com forums (I'm proud of you, by the way , Luke's Dad - using phrases I've coined like purist, etc). So if I may I'd like to repost some of the ways I think about these things:

Here are the definitions of Canon and EU. These two words are thrown around a lot, but as the Lord of Purists I believe I have a fairly in-depth understanding of the terms. I'll also include some of the terms I myself have coined, which are in semi-common usage on the GB.com forum:

Canon: Anything explicitly stated or seen in the movies. Many sources will state that Canon includes not only the movies, but the screenplays, the novelisations and the radio serialisations. This is not strictly true: by the very definition of the word canon it is only the movies. Sources that include the other texts often call them secondary canon - in my opinion this just confuses things. The only real Canon is the movies (including, it should be noted, the movie credits, or the term 'Ewok' would not be Canon). When you start going into primary and secondary canon it is not using the term correctly.

EU (Expanded Universe): Anything not explicitly stated or seen in the movies. However, due to confusion surrounding this area I (being the scholar I am) have subdivided EU into two categories:

PEU (Pure Expanded Universe): EU that is totally independent of the movies. Examples include the Garm Bel Iblis, Yuuzhan Vong, Talon Karrde, Mara Jade, Nohri, Grand Admiral Thrawn, etc... Much, though not all of PEU conflicts with the movies.

EEU (Extrapolated Expanded Universe): EU that is based at least in part on the movies, but is still not evidenced in them. Examples include the length of a Star Destroyer, the events surrounding the Battle of Tanaab, even the name 'All Terrain Armored Transport'. Very little, if any EEU contradicts the movies and therefore most EEU is taken as fact, but that doesn't make it Canon (which it is often mistaken for): it is still subject to be altered in Episode 3 without disrupting continuity with the other movies.

It is important to note that all of the above, even PEU, can be termed "Official". They have a lot of info from PEU on the official website, but that doesn't make it Canon in any sense of the word.

However, when making any Star Wars-related product other than the movies themselves, it is best not to contradict EEU. PEU is okay to contradict, since it does so much itself already, but in general don't contradict EEU. But using EEU to prove an argument about how the Star Wars Universe works is flawed: only Canon is so powerful.

Jan Gaarni
08-20-2003, 07:59 AM
*sigh*

Well, this is all fine and dandy, and a very good dividing up the EU by the
way :) , but this is your defination of what canon is: A fan's definition.
I however, go by a much higher organisations policy of what is canon and what is not canon, that of LucasFilms policy.

And until that get's changed, it does not matter what you or I think is canon or not. :)

Canon is:
Movies
Scripts
Novels
Radio Dramas

:)

So if you are a true purist, then these are the sources you need to use only. Don't get me wrong, if you go by Movies only, then you are still a true purist, but you will be missing alot of the rest of the canon info in the process. That's your choice though.

And EU has been placed under a policy, that whatever is written about Star Wars, has not only have to be compliant with the canon sources, but also previous EU material published earlier.
Thus, the Imperial Star Destroyers in the films are not classified as Imperial-Class Star Destroyers, but Imperator-Class Star Destroyers.

Imperial-Class is something later second generation EU pulled out of their ass after not doing propper research about it, along with the laughable 8000 meter lenght of the Executor-Class Super Star Destroyer, which by the way they still seem to kling to. It's atleast 17km long, and if anyone says otherwise, they would be going against evidence shown by the movies and even the words of the people who built the Executor.
If you still believe the Executor is 8 km long, or even 12.8, then the Imperator-Class just can't be 1.6 km long. It is not physically possible. It would have to be shorter, around 720 meters for the first lenght, and 1.1 km for the second lenght.
For instance. :)

No offense ment here, but for you selfproclaimed purists, I find it very odd that you do not know what is EU and what is canon. You don't have to use all the canon in your arguments, I respect that and understand you want to play it safe, but you should atleast know what is and what is not canon even though you do not agree with that policy.

Admiral Vostok
08-20-2003, 11:04 AM
Actually it appears I know better than your source. Get out your dictionary and look up the term "Canon".

Consider this: if something is different in the script than it is to the final movie, which is the more correct? Obviously the movie. This means the movie is more powerful and more correct than the script. If there is an ultimate power, it and only it is canon. If the movie and the script were interchangable, they could both be called canon, but as they are not they can't. There is no such thing as primary or secondary canon, just plain canon.

For example, someone earlier mentioned the bit in the radio dramatisations about Obi-Wan saying Owen was his brother. This is now proven wrong. If the radio dramatisations are wrong, how can they be canon? Canon by it's very definition is right - and as for the movies contradicting themselves, this doesn't happen in any meaningful way. The most notable is the Imperial rank insignia thing, but if you think about it Moff Jerjerrod is never called "Moff" but always called "Commander"...

Several places claim the same as you, but I seem to recall long ago one of the Ask The Jedi Council questions related to this on StarWars.com, and the answer was the movies above all else. I'm not saying this is the be-all-and-end-all, just that not everyone at LucasFilm claims the same as you.

lukeiamyourdad
08-20-2003, 03:03 PM
*sigh*

I've seen so many Movies vs. Eu debates in my life...

Anyway,


What has been written about Obi-Wan being Owen's brother MIGHT(I've said "might") have been what Lucas was thinking...25 years ago. Hey things change he might have changed that. I mean Alec Guiness and the guy who was playing Owen Lars did have a bit of a ressemblence(perhaps a coincidence) but I thought to that they were related(without reading the novels).

Jan Gaarni
08-21-2003, 08:21 AM
Ok, reason why I didn't list that canon source more detailed is because I've already did so plenty of times in this very thread. :)

But I'll list it again, alittle more detailed.

From the highest ranking to the lowest ranking:
Movies
Script of the movies
Novels of the movies
Radio dramatization of the Movies

Everything else that is official is EU (including LucasArts), meaning it is subordinate to canon and is required to be consistent with other official works.
Works which do not have the blessing of Lucasfilm Ltd (which is not the same entity as LucasArts) are unofficial and cannot be given consideration.

Actually it appears I know better than your source. Get out your dictionary and look up the term "Canon".
This is not a merely personal opinion; it is the explicit policy of the Continuity and Production Editors at Lucasfilm.

However, you can also look at it like this:
Primeary Canon - Movies
Quasi-Canon - the Secondary canon sources (script, novels, radio show)
But they are all valid sources none the less. To not include any of these secondary sources would be to disregard alot of info not showing up in the movies, but those who do include it are no less wrong in what they say than you are. They may even be more correct at times then those who go by movies only.
See further down about Moff Jerjerrod
It's your call of course.


I've never once stated that anything goes over the movies. Not once.

I've already wooped out my dictionary long ago, but none the less, I cannot go against the policy that has been set, and that is what I just listed.
Again, what you have come to the conclusion of what's canon and not, is a personal opinion on your part.

The most notable is the Imperial rank insignia thing, but if you think about it Moff Jerjerrod is never called "Moff" but always called "Commander"...
No, he wasn't called Moff in the movies. But we already know the rank of Admiral Piett, yet his rank insignia is that of a Captain. And we already know how it's supposed to look like from ESB, aswell as how the captains and commanders, even a lieutenants rank insignia, looks like from ESB. And as I already have said, all officers in RotJ are either a Captain or a Commander. No matter how much you try to rationalise this, in a galaxy that large you just can't have 2 ranks running it. There's no way in hell that would work.
So let's call a spade a spade, shall we: This is an obviuos blooper.
End of story. :)
Yes, it's not a big one, a mere grafical blooper which was not intentional I'm sure, but a blooper none the less.

How do we know he's a Moff? From the novel and script, just to mention a few sources.

If you think about it, the President of the United States of America is also a Commander, is he not? :)

Commander can mean 2 things:
1. A commisioned rank which is above lieutenant commander and below captain.

2. The chief commissioned officer of a military unit regardless of his or her rank.

Admiral Vostok
08-21-2003, 10:33 AM
Okay, okay. Essentially what we're arguing about is semantics. We still believe the same thing (I think). Basically what you call "Primary Canon" I call "Canon" and what you call "Secondary Canon" I call "Extrapolated EU". It means the same thing. I guess my big problem is that the people at LucasFilm Licensing should be using the term more correctly by only applying it to the movies, while calling "Secondary Canon" something more correct like "Secondary Sources" or something.

Essentially what I'm trying to say is if it isn't "primary" canon then it is inadmissible in a discussion about the Star Wars Universe - since secondary canon can be negated by the movies, it is hardly powerful enough to win an argument about what might appear in Episode III, don't you think?

And I did know all that about the Rank Insigniae - I guess I was hoping you didn't... :D

Jan Gaarni
08-21-2003, 08:41 PM
And I did know all that about the Rank Insigniae - I guess I was hoping you didn't... :D
Hehe. :D

Say, I did that trivia thing of yours, but of course the dimwit I am I forgot to sign it, so I sent in another one with just my name right after it.
Anyways, did you get it and how did I do? :)
I know it can't be a full score cause on a couple of things I just winged it. :p

Admiral Vostok
08-22-2003, 02:51 AM
Yeah I did get that okay. You did very well - 20/25. I haven't added your score to my sig because it's getting too long and I'm going to start putting everyone's name on the website, not just people who get a full score. I hope to do this over the weekend.

Jedi_Monk
09-13-2003, 03:19 PM
I see the Star Wars saga as the creation of one Auteur, one creative mind that drives the process. That Auteur is obviously George Lucas, who conceived of the story, has directed the majority of the movies and been a very hands-on producer of the rest. The art department is all about getting "what's in George's head," and the same goes for ILM. The movies are the vision of Lucas, plucked out of his head and put onto the screen.

As I regard Lucas as the creative mind behind the saga, I regard anything that Lucas says about his creation as significant, in that it offers insight into the universe from the only person who knows everything about it.

As this my position, my hierarchy of sources are: the movies, the scripts and interviews with Lucas.

It might not be the "official" hierarchy, but it is the technically correct one when you are trying to understand the movies as movies, works of art, and social and moral statements.

What strikes be about the EU is that it exists in the vacuum of its own continuity. There is no crossover with true events, few solid social statements. Lucas' movies are all about social and moral statements. The Prequels are all about how the democratic state can be undercut and perverted by the power-hungry, and the OT is all about the redemption of the galaxy as exemplified by Anakin's final conversion. The EU is oh so shallow in comparison.

Admiral Vostok
09-16-2003, 11:48 AM
Exactly, Monk. I've always seen the EU as Science Fiction, whereas the movies are a Fiction that just happens to be set in Space. In other words, they are two totally different genres - the EU authors have no idea what's going on in George's head.