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BawBag™
07-22-2003, 10:03 AM
I read the following article recently and it made me ponder somewhat:
Despite the recent success of a certain Caribbean-set blockbuster, piracy is wrong and Hollywood is damn well going to make sure you know it. A new campaign has kicked off in the US to educate people on the evils of this heinous practice and see that they understand the end result: a warm reception in Satan's living room.

Appearing in cinemas and on American television, these infomercials show people whose lives have been devastated by the crime of video piracy. Set painters, costume designers and other movie craftsmen provide touching, tear-jerking testimonials about how plundering the fruits of Hollywood in an illicit and underhand manner deprives them of a living. And if these tales of woe aren't enough to get your tear ducts working overtime, the MPAA has instigated Plan B and produced some classroom literature to educate the next generation of net-savvy miscreants in the law regarding copyright theft.

"I don't expect anyone to have sympathy for me or for other executives," said Peter Chernin, president and chief operating officer of 20th Century Fox's parent company, News Corp. "What we are endeavouring to do is both communicate that it's wrong and also communicate that there are human stakes and that those stakes are not just millionaires making less millions."

Oh puh-lease. Seeing a woman strung out and nursing a crack baby while turning tricks to feed her habit, that's worthy of sympathy. Call us cynical if you must, but we doubt too many tears will be shed for the starving set designers that this campaign would have us believe are a final notice away from knocking over convenience stores and mugging grannies in the street. Don't get us wrong, piracy is illegal and a real problem for the film industry that we know and adore, so we don't condone it one bit. But really, this kind of 'save the starving film crew' ads will provoke more laughs than guilt. Threaten the little deviants with arrest, incarceration and a seventeen-stone bunk-mate called Bubba, that'll do the trick.
I have to say that I agree with the author of the article, there is a tone of over emphasis here. And I do believe that piracy is unjust.
I personally prefer to have all my DVD's, videos and CD's in their original form, rather than copied.

Seen as I probably won't see the aforementioned trailer, I would like to know someone else's view on piracy and the so called 'hard-hitting' nature of such an advertising campaign.

ShockV1.89
07-22-2003, 10:27 AM
I dont think it's as big an impact as they would like you to believe, but of course they want you to think they're in dire straights. The music industry is a different story...

I think it's messed up. It's wrong, both morally and legally. A group of people work hard to produce a film, and someone takes the film, copies it, and sells it for 95% profit, with no gains going to the creators.

I've heard people try to morally back up piracy, but in the end, they are no better than thieves.

__CKY__
07-23-2003, 01:44 AM
I agree. Not alot I can say but I agree =/.

Kain
07-23-2003, 01:50 AM
Any idiot who can't deserne(SP?) that fact that that movie was just that, a movie, should be dragged into the street and beaten until they realize it is just a work of art

Dagobahn Eagle
07-23-2003, 02:14 AM
Any idiot who can't deserne the fact that that movies are producs of hours upon hours, months upon months, of hard labour, and is actually the lifeblood of the people who make them, should be dragged into the street and beaten until they realize it is not just made by snapping your fingers.

If a pirate reads this, I'd like to ask you this: Is it okay for you to walk into a grocery store, pick up two breads and a soda, and walk back out without paying? Is it okay for you to have a garage sale and pick up one of the things you were planning to sell because it's "just a thing"? No? Then how can you do what you do?

You do realize that if everyone got pirated copies of movies like LOTR, then movies like that would seize to exist, right? Or do you actually expect people to spend millions on a movie just to give it away for free?

SkinWalker
07-23-2003, 04:54 AM
I think the entertainment industry as a whole is very scared about this activity going on in the "cyberworld." Using a program like Kazaa or Morpheus or WinMx, you can download an entire movie in under a couple of hours with a fast enough connection. This was UNHEARD of just a few years ago, even when the mp3 craze began with Napster.

There has been a verifiable difference in cd/tape sales since the advent of Napster, and this, too, has the entertainment industry scared.

Personally, I think that they need to figure out an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" strategy, because this isn't going to go away. On my weblog Hot Cup of Joe (http://home.earthlink.net/~ctfeagans) (also linked in my sig) I have a short article and several links about a scheme to fight back. It's being cooked up by Orin Hatch, who basically wants it to be legal for record/movie companies to up load trojan programs or harmful software to these P2P servers.

I'm not really worried, as this won't work either.

Ironically, the small bands and artists actually seem to benefit from the P2P phenomenon as it gets them better exposure and their sales have been shown to actually increase. The larger artists and bands suffer because they have so much wrapped up in the recording studios and publishing companies, who are used to extravegant spending and lifestyles of the rich and famous... I'm sure they engage in $100 dollar lunches quite frequently and put it all on expense accounts...

In short, the recording industry needs to shrink it's budget and update it's pricing of music... every other industry has prices which rise and fall according to demand and competition. The record industry keeps the price of new cds right at $15... the same place a new LP or cassette was when I was a kid. I think 8-tracks were that price as well, but my allowance wasn't enough yet ;)

I don't think the movie industry really needs to worry much for the time being. Movies are still very large and still take a considerable amount of time to download (not that I've done it<Grin>). Moreover, the quality is rarely comparable to DVD. Some are even so bad, you can see audience members getting up for popcorn! (not that I would know... I've heard this) But they're looking at the recording industry and they see the problems they're facing now.

I'll always buy the cds of my favorite artists, but perhaps it will help if the industry provides a little extra in the CD... discount coupons to concerts... stickers for the car window... collectable hologram card.... better liner notes.... these are the things, along with lowering the price of the cd, that will keep the industry alive.

I'll always go to the movies... I'll sneak my own snacks in (having a baby with a diaper bag is cool), but I'll go to the movies.

Homuncul
07-23-2003, 04:59 AM
I like piracy. Not that I don't understand how it works for the authors of these musics, movies and all. It's just cheaper and it's very open. You know Russia has one of the best piracy in the world, and they advance themselves day by day.

I can go and buy pirate EpII on 1 disk DVD for 5$ and have no region limitations there. Not that I did it, it was a principle for me to buy EpII DVD licensed. An so I did. But let's put it another way, if it's there, if it's cheaper, and you just can't stand to see a movie why not buy pirate DVD? or music? or whatever?.

I remember when The Two Towers were about to run in States, the Academy copy appeared before the world premiere. I bought it for the same 5$ and had a great time watching at the perfect picture and perfect sound. Some cool guy called Goblin used the same illigal copy and made a brand new translation for it. This copy is now in every store.

And it amazes me how open this thing is. One can go to the major store on the Red Square in Moscow or on Nevski Prospect in St. Petersburg, and get pirate music/video there. Right in front of the main court building there is a market selling pirate movies. Government and artists themselves tryed to block it several times but it always says "I'll be back" and it always does and in greater numbers.

The recent innovation in their technique of stealing movies is that they somehow manage to get a film which is projected on the screen in the theater and digitize it. They do the same with sound and there comes almost perfect DVD movie. Of course when the company, which makes the copy of the original film to make it dubbed, the quality suffers a bit, still it's a shock for me that it is possible to get those things done.

I already have T3 and Hulk DVDs made with that technique. Awesome quality, awesome sound and all. Of course I'll buy them licensed when they'll come out legally.

I can buy a copy of licensed WinXP for 2$!!! And any PS2 game for 5$, or any PC game - for 2$!!! And so I do.

You can get almost everything pirate and be garanteed that everything would work and will not break. I can by a licensed DVD player with Russian region and after I buy licensed DVD with American region I would not be able to watch. Than I go to the market and buy for a cheaper price a multizone model of the same DVD player and watch whatever I like.

Piracy is "bad" but it seems to me that companies involved in it too sometimes jump over their heads and provocate the piracy. I for a moment can't understand at all what is the overwhelming point in DVD regioning and it offends me when I can't watch what I want (if I have the money to do so). If I have the money and will to buy legal DVDs and can't because they are regioned I feel myself offended: "What's wrong with the world if they don't even want my money?".

I know that many people today are ready to pay extra to watch their favourite upcoming movies in advance. But no, sometimes you have to wait for months to do so. I'm for piracy now as it offers me such an opportunity almost for free.

El Sitherino
07-23-2003, 09:15 AM
what about people like me? there's not many places that sell all the movies and music i like. therefore to be able to watch it i must download it. and i don't buy things off the internet.

STTCT
07-23-2003, 10:16 AM
I am just going :rolleyes: at this. I mean, like the author says WE HAVE STARVING CHILDREN OUT THERE. I just read that 22 elderly men, women and children were slaughtered in the congo. And they are going to show me a commercial how a ceo who probably makes more than 100x what I make is going to starve to be I d/l the ONE SONG off a cd that was any good. You know if they want us to pay for their **** they better start putting good stuff on their cds. None of this 1 good song and 9 ****ty songs!

El Sitherino
07-23-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by STTCT
I am just going :rolleyes: at this. I mean, like the author says WE HAVE STARVING CHILDREN OUT THERE. I just read that 22 elderly men, women and children were slaughtered in the congo. And they are going to show me a commercial how a ceo who probably makes more than 100x what I make is going to starve to be I d/l the ONE SONG off a cd that was any good. You know if they want us to pay for their **** they better start putting good stuff on their cds. None of this 1 good song and 9 ****ty songs! i agree. i don't buy a cd just for one song if i just want one song i don't mind buying a cd if i like all the song or a majority of a cd. also you can't always blame piracy, sometimes your cd just plain sucks.

STTCT
07-23-2003, 11:36 AM
The music industry has really gone to hell. I've been annoyed by the one hit wonder cd's for a long time. I always by a CD if it is worth the money. I'd much rather have an original than an mp3 illegal one. It sounds better and its the original! I think that if Bands made it worth it to buy their cds than a lot of people would. I'm not saying its right to burn cds or anything. I'm jsut saying no one should go to jail for it and I'm sure no one is starving because of it either. Do more concerts people. Do more commercials. There are plenty of ways these artists make money - its not just on the cd.

griff38
07-23-2003, 01:35 PM
It's easy to condone piracy as long as it happens to someone else. But when somebody takes something you have done for their own use it hits home.

Those who know me know I like to make JKO clip to share for free with anyone who wants to take the time to d-load one.


However recently I saw someone elses JKO clip and they had
taken, borrowed, copied, stolen, ( I dont know which word to use)
part of 2 of my clips. No credit for me in the credits no e-mail about it or anything. (if he had asked I would have said yes)

I was shocked. Especially since this guy has a special video himself where he DISrespects people who stole his material.

More later.

Dagobahn Eagle
07-23-2003, 05:10 PM
This thread is gonna get closed:D.

It's easy to condone piracy as long as it happens to someone else. But when somebody takes something you have done for their own use it hits home.
Ditto.
I hate it when someone takes one of my ideas (any type or form), use it for their own purposes, and say they came up with it. Especially if they finish their project before me so that it looks like I ripped them off. Or if I confront them and they lie and badmouth me..

And it amazes me how open this thing is. One can go to the major store on the Red Square in Moscow or on Nevski Prospect in St. Petersburg, and get pirate music/video there. Right in front of the main court building there is a market selling pirate movies. Government and artists themselves tryed to block it several times but it always says "I'll be back" and it always does and in greater numbers.

Suppose Russia's got other things to worry about than piracy:).

You live in Moscow? That's just cool!

El Sitherino
07-23-2003, 06:05 PM
my stuff has been "pirated". i've made videos all sorts of stuff.

also i think it's kinda flattering that someone would risk a fine/jail to get my stuff.

Homuncul
07-24-2003, 03:55 AM
You live in Moscow? That's just cool!

I live in Petersburg, that's as cool:p

my stuff has been "pirated". i've made videos all sorts of stuff.

That reminds me. I and a couple of friends once were making some music (techno, remix that stuff) and my friends finally gave it to some famous DJ in a night club to listen. Well, he listened and just took it for himself, never ever mentioning us , who created it.

It offended us of course, it was actually our fault anyway, we needed to be smarter in these matters.

STTCT
07-24-2003, 04:15 AM
Well when people were copying tapes...did the industry complain. We all know damn well those cds only cost them a few cents to make.

RoguePhotonic
07-24-2003, 06:51 AM
OH BITCH BITCH BITCH.....what's that cartoon? finding nemo?...it has made about 303 million...BOOO HOOO HOOO about a few people downloading it off the net....movies make money out the ass.

Downloading is for those poor ****s who can't afford to pay for everything they want.

Though people say it can't be stopped but they will go after your ISP and they will start putting blocks on there for the ****.

Dagobahn Eagle
07-24-2003, 07:29 AM
Downloading is for those poor ****s who can't afford to pay for everything they want
Err.. do you really believe that yourself?

OH BITCH BITCH BITCH.....what's that cartoon? finding nemo?...it has made about 303 million...BOOO HOOO HOOO about a few people downloading it off the net....movies make money out the ass.
Old movies that don't sell anymore, maybe, but new ones?

"A few people"? There's something like 5 million Gigabytes of files on Kazaa. Yes, I suppose it's just a few people.. like 100 or 200... each with a HD of a couple of houndred thousand GB :rolleyes:.

If you had a garage sale and someone just took your stuff, how'd you feel? "Oh, it's just a toaster oven", "oh, it's just a stupid soccer ball! You wouldn't get more than $1 for it anyhow"...and so on, for every garage sale.

How would you feel.

RoguePhotonic
07-24-2003, 08:17 AM
My point was so what..303 million..so what if they didn't make 350 million...

And it's not like that..it's not something that you will no longer have if someone takes it...it's about greed...you have millions of dollars but well you could have a few million more if there wasn't file sharing.


I would hate to think of my life without file sharing...because most music I listen to and LOVE I would not have at all if it wasn't for downloading...so it's not an issue of paying or not...it's an issue of having or not.

Like many games that are ok but not good enough to buy....can download and enjoy for free...

ShockV1.89
07-24-2003, 10:19 AM
And it's not like that..it's not something that you will no longer have if someone takes it...it's about greed...you have millions of dollars but well you could have a few million more if there wasn't file sharing.

How is it less greedy for you to say "I dont want to spend my money, but I still want that product!" It's stealing. The ultimate greedy act.

And you didnt answer his question. How would you feel if you were selling something, and someone came up and said "You're doing good, so it wont hurt your profits too much if I take this for free. Bye!"

RoguePhotonic
07-24-2003, 10:38 PM
That's the thing though it's not the same...I spend all my money on things like games...and then I don't have enough for all the ones I want so I download the others....there is a big deference between saying well guess I will save 50 bucks since I can download it and not having 50 to spend.

But in the end I don't give a **** if it's stealing...

ShockV1.89
07-25-2003, 02:06 AM
Fair enough. Next time I'm in Bakersfield, I'll drop by your place and steal your computer. I dont give a **** either.

:rolleyes:

RoguePhotonic
07-25-2003, 02:45 AM
lol go for it...

:uzi1:

ShockV1.89
07-25-2003, 03:23 AM
I give up. You either totally missed or totally ignored my point...

:disaprove

Dagobahn Eagle
07-25-2003, 05:18 AM
That's the thing though it's not the same...I spend all my money on things like games...and then I don't have enough for all the ones I want so I download the others....there is a big deference between saying well guess I will save 50 bucks since I can download it and not having 50 to spend.
Is it that impossible to just wait with buying a game? Wait a couple of months until you have 50 more dollars.

But in the end I don't give a **** if it's stealing...
Long as it doesn't happen to you, huh? If someone really did steal your computer, wouldn't you want it back?

lol go for it...
Er.. this isn't the Swamp. There wasn't much debate material in that post:rolleyes:.

RoguePhotonic
07-25-2003, 05:44 AM
No it's not possible to wait...I play to many games...I have 2 folders in my favs for games I am waiting for

37 by the end of this year and 12 in the first 2 months of next year...

and those lists can go up when I learn of new games.

Sure it would suck if I came home and my system was gone but no I would not want it back...I have learned over the years there is no point in feeling down or pissed about things that there is nothing you can do about it...just say oh well and move on...

Bob Gnarly
07-25-2003, 02:30 PM
you know whats really stupid is there sending people for jail for d/l ing to much of it....JAIL.

Inmate: what are you in here for?
Guy: I downloaded 28 days later and the hulk?
Inmate: so.....
guy: we...arent supposed to that...because people around the world will starve:rolleyes:

i read somewhere that a collage student has been charged for setting up a search engine to download music for his friends...i think it was 15 000 they charged him.....seriously man if they pass this in canada id probably have to....i dunno sell my soul....i have made and own stuff before this was a big deal so doe sthat mean ni have to throw em all out so i dont get fined?

Dagobahn Eagle
07-25-2003, 10:14 PM
you know whats really stupid is there sending people for jail for d/l ing to much of it....JAIL.
I know, they should fine them instead. That way, you end up paying for the music, and you learn that if you pay for it the conventional way, you shouldn't

Inmate: what are you in here for?
Guy: I downloaded 28 days later and the hulk?
Inmate: so.....
guy: we...arent supposed to that...because people around the world will starve
:rolleyes:. I'd say both that guy and the inmate are too stupid to be out in society (j/k). It's more the fact that people lose money and that it's stealing (duh:rolleyes:). Or do you really think that the starving Ethiopians starve because of Kazaa.

i read somewhere that a collage student has been charged for setting up a search engine to download music for his friends...i think it was 15 000 they charged him....
The music industry could lose more than $15 000 due to that engine, you know. They lose millions thanks to Kazaa.

seriously man if they pass this in canada id probably have to....i dunno sell my soul....
First you defend privacy, then you intend to sell your soul? I though you'd be more in favour of uploading it to Kazaa.. oh well.

so doe sthat mean ni have to throw em all out so i don't get fined?
Probably, if they were to come after you.

PS: Clean up your spelling. There is no such words as "ni and sthat". No, I'm serious, there aren't.

Bob Gnarly
07-26-2003, 08:18 AM
God thats emabrassing sorry i didnt read it over i just type ed out really fast and most of them are just words togather.
First you defend privacy, then you intend to sell your soul? I though you'd be more in favour of uploading it to Kazaa.. oh well. to pay the fines....

SkinWalker
07-26-2003, 03:15 PM
I urge everyone to browse this link http://harlanellison.com/kick/kick_rls.htm regardless of what side of this issue you are on.

It's a good example of how the little guy. It's about Harlan Ellison's ongoing legal battle against America Online. Never one to back away from a fight, Ellison sued AOL three years ago for reacting too slowly after he notified it that his short stories had been pirated on a Usenet newsgroup available through the service.

AOL asserts that the Digital Millennium Copyright Act holds ISPs blameless for content that others move through their networks, but Ellison has emptied his retirement fund waging an epic battle to have the courts rule otherwise. The case has reached the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

Here's a bibliography of Ellison's work (http://harlanellison.com/booklist.htm). He's not the UberAuthor that Grissom, King, or Assimov are, but he's written some stuff you might recognize. He's also worked on screenplays and episodic television works such as Logan's Run, Outer Limits, the Twilight Zone and Babylon 5.

The guy is small-time, but trying to make an honest living. Is it fair that some schmuck photocopies his stuff, ports it to a pdf file and uploads it to the UseNet?

Homuncul
07-28-2003, 05:32 AM
A friend recently offered me a free copy of the Two Towers. This isn't some crappy pirate copy, its the real thing. It was created and handed out to Academy Award members so they can review it for upcoming awards. It has 0 ZERO CREDITS!!! and has a menu for selecting language and captions.

I took it.

He now is going to get me a Matrix Reloaded in the same format.

Ill take it too

Hey you're too late with TTT, I took this copy long before you as I mentioned in my previous post. It has appeared in our market many months from now.:p

Bout Matrix. Is it a copy for Awards? If it was ever made, I would have had it. But I didn't, so I doubt that it's an old Award version. Think this version, if it's to appear, is a preview of the original DVD, or the original DVD itself (stolen from Watchovski).

griff38
08-02-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Homuncul


Bout Matrix. Is it a copy for Awards? If it was ever made, I would have had it. But I didn't, so I doubt that it's an old Award version. Think this version, if it's to appear, is a preview of the original DVD, or the original DVD itself (stolen from Watchovski).


Not sure yet H, I ll let you know if I ever get it.

SkinWalker
08-02-2003, 02:06 PM
Hey guys... this is getting to be a borderline rules violation... we can talk about piracy as a concept: the right/wrong of it; why we feel that way; etc.

Just don't cross the line about trading, offering URLs, how-to find, etc.

You haven't yet, but if this conversation were the North/South Korea border, I'd be wearing a flak jacket being this close :D

I just wanted to offer a warning before another mod stopped in... I don't think you guys would go that far, but other mods might not know you guys as well as I do.

El Sitherino
08-02-2003, 05:38 PM
granted the smalltime people lose out. but these big people like metallica and eminem they won't starve just because they lose millions of dollars that they never recieved because people downloaded their music instead of buying it. i mean eminem has more money than my street put together. and that's just a rough estimate from the total sales he got on his first few albums. if he spends wisely he could live the rest of his life happy and work free, send kids to college. you really think my and millions of other people downloading an album is going to make him starve after he made so much money selling previous albums. plus if people like the album enough they will buy it(if they get the money) but until artists make more FULL ALBUMS good I will continue to download the songs that are good. I wouldn't mind spending money on a 4 track album that's good songs but not a 15 track album that only has 4 good songs on it. f*ck that if I spend my money on something I want it to be something good all the way through

Wacky_Baccy
08-02-2003, 05:57 PM
Only have a couple of things to say... Of course piracy is bad because it's thieving someone else's creation. However, when giant record[and to an extent, movie] companies refuse to chanrge a more reasonable price for the often-mediocre stuff they churn out, I have no sympathy for them if they start to lose sales.

Piracy has always been a problem - the net just makes it that much more accessible, and less stigmatised since it's so impersonal.

I've downloaded a lot of stuff from kazaa, but I've also massively increased my CD purchases in the last year or two - which I would most certainly not have done had I not been able to listen to various tracks from many artists at my leisure by downloading them.

I think most CDs are overpriced, but I still buy ones which I consider worthy of my money - i.e. not the ones with only one song I want on them ;)

If record companies were serious about stopping piracy, they'd stop wasting their time and money on guilt-trip commercials, and invest in LEGAL downloading avenues for people to use if they want certain tracks - that's a massively underfunded and under-exploited market, IMHO. They just don't want to make it easy for people to get what they want - they're content with forcingh us to buy one CD for one or two tracks that we want, because it makes them money while we have to put up with it.

Creativity in the mainstream music industry has all but stagnated over the last... Decade =/



...Wow, that was a lot of typing for "a couple of things". :D

Rant over ^_^

Luc Solar
08-03-2003, 09:16 AM
A few thoughts (didn't read the thread, sorry if I'm repeating what someone esle said)

Downloading MP3's is not illegal in Finland (and most other countries I presume). Is it morally questionable? It depends.

I've downloaded loads of mp3's and never bought a CD in my life. Yes, you heard me: I've never bought a CD in my life.

The reason for this is that I think paying 20$ for a CD is paying 10 times too much for a product = quite stupid.

CD's have been out for, what - 10 years(?) and I've never bought one. I have copied all my music on tape from the radio. The thought never crossed my mind to pay something as ridiculous as 20$ for a few songs that I might listen to once or twice. 20$ is insane!

I got probably 1000 mp3's on my hard drive. It's all legal, but is it morally questionable? I say no. It would be wrong for me to share these files or download them instead of buying, but is it wrong to have them? No. I have not and would not buy them anyway. The artist loses nothing. I get free music. It's not a zero-sum-game.

On the other hand, if CD's would cost around 5 $, I suppose I would buy them instead of downloading...although one has to look out for all that copy-protection-**** that might prevent you from actually using the disc at all (/ in certain players) or even destroy your cd-drive, but.. I suppose I would walk into the store instead of downloading. I do value quality, after all.

What about games, apps etc.? Can I download them since "I wouldn't buy them anyway"? No; because it's illegal, against the law, forbidden period.
There is no question about morality here. It's illegal. That's it.

Naturally: The day downloading mp3's becomes illegal is the day I stop downloading them.