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View Full Version : Why I left Duelers, why Lee Oattes is trying to hide what I say, & Cool Mods for JK2


Marker0077
07-25-2003, 11:58 AM
Cool Mods for JK2
This project will feature...

Hilts Packs:
The best hilts for JK2. These have gone through Cool Mods standards, meaning sword hilts blades do not exceed the actual blade length, all blades are in the exact same position, etc; etc.

The hilts that do not pass standards such as the Binford Chainsaw hilt & the Schwartz hilt, go in the Non-Standard Hilts pack. Explanations of why each hilt does not pass standards is given in the credits section of the Cool Mods manual.

A promotional screenshot for the Cool Mods hilts can be viewed here. (283kb) (http://coolmods.jk2files.com/promotional_screenshots/hilts_packs.jpg)

Skins Pack A:
Over 200 skins in 1 pack. These not only have more sounds, more skins, full bot support, & tons & tons of fixes, but it also takes up 2/3s less disk space as well!

A promotional screenshot for Cool Mods: Skins Pack A can be viewed here. (428kb) (http://coolmods.jk2files.com/promotional_screenshots/skins_pack_a.jpg)

A promotional screenshot for Cool Mods: Alternate Red Dash can be viewed here. (133kb) (http://coolmods.jk2files.com/promotional_screenshots/alternate_red_dash.jpg)

Installers:
No zip files here people. If you already have a hilt or skin that is included in any of these packs, the installer shall prompt you to move them to a sub-folder in you "base" folder so there are no duplicate models & skins.

From Duelers to Cool Mods for JK2
This thread is mainly for informing the public of the happenings with Duelers mod (i.e. why I have left Duelers) & to give Lee Oattes a chance to tell his side of the story, however, it is also a place where you can leave commentary on the upcoming release of Cool Mods for JK2.

Lee had removed what I & quite a few of the others had posted before. I did not have all the posts backed up but I did have the first one so I am now posting it again now...As some of you know, there has been tension between Lee Oattes & I for some time now so I wanted for him & I to just do completely separate projects, being 2 separate mods. Chosen One (JA coder) & I was planning on doing a Duelers based mod but Lee refuses to allow us to use the source code (like he had originally agreed to). We have attempted to work with him on this but it would appear he has no interest in sharing.

Honestly, this all reminds me of the incident with Spectrum/BOFH/Phoenix/JediPlus coder about 6 months ago (http://www.gamingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14721, specifically the last 5 or 6 posts).

Marker0077 LATE EDIT
Even more so now that he is deleting threads just like Spectrum had done.
Marker0077 LATE EDIT END

In any event, since he doesn't want to share his work, I'm sure everyone can understand why I no longer want to share my work with Duelers since I am off of the project. That being the loading screen in the mod, the web site, the Duelers button (basically all the graphics design work) & the hilts pack.

I sincerely apologize to everyone for not releasing Duelers Full, I know a lot of you were really looking forward to it but you know how the saying goes, if something sounds to good to be true, chances are it is.

I still plan on releasing the majority of my work in Cool Mods for JK2 but it's not going to feature the cool installer I made for Duelers obviously. It will still feature an installer if I have enough time.

Lee says he may release the source code publicly some day but that means nothing to Chosen One & I. If we're not doing the project now we won't do it later, besides, Lee already told me I could use the source code in the past & now I feel that he is going back on his word. Anything a person tells you means nothing if they go back on their word & that's exactly what I feel Lee has done.

Personally, there were some features like punch sounds with emotes & a speed scaling CVar that I had recommended Lee add to Duelers & he had no interest in doing it what so ever & at times, even acted offended when I mentioned it. When I said that we might add these types of features in our mod, that's when he said we couldn't use the code.

It doesn't matter anyways, Duelers is dying for a variety of reasons & Duelers Full had a good chance to save it. I almost want to release it just to prove my point but to be honest, I just want to get out of the Duelers picture so I don't have to deal with headaches anymore. This was *supposed* to be for fun.Lee Oattes was given the opportunity to contribute to the thread to tell his side of the story but instead he had removed it altogether (I can't imagine why).

More than that he is now stealing my work. I had told him I was planning on removing the web site before hand so he had enough time to make a new page (which was about 3 days). Instead, he saved my site & then put it back up when I no longer had access to the FTP. From what I gather (the only thing I understand of what his side of the story is), his position is this was work I had done for Duelers so it should stay with Duelers just like if this was a real business but if this was a real business, a person would receive payment (i.e. being permitted to use the source code, which BTW I did try to work out with him as a deal beforehand) or the persons work would go with them. I had not only not received any payment, he went back on his word by not allowing me to use the source code. A company would not use a persons work & not pay them for it, this should be no different if you going to say the work I have done is "Duelers property".

All in all, me leaving Duelers would have never even been an issue in the first place if Lee was being more of a team player. There were a variety of threads that were taken up on various ideas that I & some of the other users had & we voted on them (which Lee has also now removed from the Duelers forums). Lee would not code the majority of them, which I could have lived with but the Orange stance damage is not where it is supposed to be in Duelers 1.3. Normally it does around 55 damage in not only previous versions of Duelers but all other JediMod based mods as well. He refused to fix it. It was at this point that I realized that he was no longer going to be reasonable nor a team player (like he used to be), so that's when I decided to give him these 2 ultimatums...

The Proposed Deals:
#1) Fix the Orange damage & I would stay on Duelers. That's it, that's all he had to do. He didn't have to code any of the ideas that we had, just fix what was messed up. He refused.

This offer is no longer on the table just because while we might have had our differences in opinions, there should have still been a trust. He broke that trust the first time by not honoring his word with allowing me to use the source code. He broke that trust a second time by stealing my work (basically the hilts & all the graphic design work). There won't be a third time.

#2) Allow Chosen One & I to code a Duelers based mod. The offer I had given him was not only could he keep the existing page & all the work I had done for him, I would update & support his mod still, including in the forums or anything else for that matter. I would even sport a URL to his page not only on our web site but in our installers as well. This offer is still on the table, however, I know he will never take me up on it.

The Aftermath
I am now once again giving Lee this opportunity to tell his side of the story, although I highly doubt he will have anything to say but you never know.

I would also like the beta testers & users of the mod to come forth & give their opinions on the matter.

As for me, I still plan on doing Cool Mods for JK2 which will feature the web site I had created. If Lee chooses to use stolen work that is his choice, however, while I was originally happy to finally let this thing rest, Lee's choices on removing my posts & stealing my work is making feel like I not only need to bring this back up but do it on a much larger scale which means I am going to be doing quite a bit of media attention on this matter.

I appreciate everyone's time very much. If you are not sure what to post then let me ask you, do you think I am wrong for doing this? How would you react if you had put over 4 or 5 months time into a project & then have your partner steal from you & not keep agreements they they had made with you?

This Thread on Other Forums
GamingForums (JK2Files.com) (http://www.gamingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84373)

LucasForums (JediKnightII.net) (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106745)

DarkSide with DarkStats Forums (http://forums.darkstats.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5357)

Clan ICoP Forums (http://www.icopclan.com/board/posts.asp?threadID=1782&forumID=8)

Clan +POO+ Forums (http://www.l33ad.com/~pooclan/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=6592#6592)

This will also be up in the Sith Vikings Forums once they are back up. Those forums are at http://www.sithvikings.org/forum.

Marker0077
08-11-2003, 12:20 PM
I am leaving this post everywhere so everyone knows what the deal is, why I haven't been posting, etc; etc.

First off, I have been dealing with real life issues. I have been helping some people move, helping others with their computers, basically helping everyone but myself. I am now back to work & the site is up & running. I am hoping to have Cool Mods for JK2 out this week, then start on CM for JK3.

Secondly, I spoke to soon about copyright laws, there are copyright laws for this sort of thing & my work is protected under copyright law at the moment. Legally, Lee can not claim my website as "Duelers property" without my written consent. As for the other mods, I still need to do some homework on all that, it will be more technical considering others work is involved as well. Either way though, I should be able to copyright my version of everyones work without too much difficulty.

Thirdly, I am not going to be contributing to this thread anymore because I plan on starting new ones with more information once I have had the time to collect my thoughts & figure out the best way of saying it (hopefully without having a book for everyone to read). I also need to get to do more studying on the laws & whatnot & quite possibly speak with some copyright lawyers.

After this is all said & done I am planning on sharing what I have learned. I want everyone copyrighting their work or at least knowing the law, this way you guys don't get anyone stealing your work as well.

Inskipp
08-15-2003, 10:33 PM
(Cross posted in gamingforums.com, since no one seems to have replied or read that one)

I don't really get it.

So the guy used a website you designed, big deal. Actually I don't even like it, but that's my opinion. It's not like it's the culmination of a lifetime career. It isn't even very complex. Even for a novice like me, it doesn't seem like it would take a lot of time to complete.

2nd, the only "work" that you may have done that Lee includes in the current mod is the hilt pack. And quite honestly, Lee included a hilt pack with FFAmod 1.0, well before you (Marker0077) were even involved. Aside from a few edits, it doesn't seem like much work.

3rd, I have extensively tested damage in duelers, with two side by side computers, and find it to be no different than base game, jedimod, or jediplus (at defaults). Sure the blue lunge does 60hp. That is because it usually hits twice! Once on the initial swing, and again when the target is knocked back from the hit. Same as in basejk (1.04). Notice that if you stand a bit further away, only one hit connects, and damage is 30hp. If you stand even closer, the damage is higher, because you get hit more than once! And if you don't like it, it is SO easy to change! g_saberdamagescale can be set to what ever you want, so someone who thinks damage is too high on their server can change it to 0.9, or 0.8, or even lower if you like. Easily resolved! If orange damage is different, who really cares. It's not part of the base game and I think it is pretty much up to the author of the mod to determine its damage. With 2 sabers, IMHO, damage should be quite limited anyway.

4th, look at this from a realistic point of view. Lee wrote what could be the best mod for JK2. The actual code itself is completely his work. Hours upon hours were spent coding, testing, and coding again to make this mod what it is today. Sure you spent I'm sure quite a bit of time making hilts, skin packs, and installers for it. But if you volunteered to do this, you are entitled to no compensation whatsoever. Quite honestly, I think the animosity between you and Lee was the direct result of the argument about damage of lunge in 1.02, about which you have previously posted an apology about, after you realized you were wrong. If I were in Lee's position, I too would certainly have trouble working with someone who posted such things about me, even after the apology.

Lastly, you are given credit in the mod's docs for your work. From what I've seen in the modding community, this is often enough.

Regardless, what is your point? The website? I can't imagine that would be so important to you. The fact that Lee won't give you the source? I wouldn't either, now that certain attitudes have become apparent.

After all, this is a mod, for a game. The real coding was done by Lee, and only Lee. I'm sorry if you spent a lot of time on it, but that is what volunteering is all about. This is NOT a company, so don't expect it to be like one. Lee was kind enough to write a great mod, and it was great of you to try to make it better, but remember, the CODE for the mod was written by Lee. The rest of the stuff, the hilts, the models, the installer, and even the sound pack, was really all just fluff.

I just wanted to defend Lee, since no one else will. The mod, conceived by him, and coded by him, deserves recognition. I have played jk2 since the day it came out, and this is, by far, the best mod there is.


***Late edit***

Also Marker0077, for a long time now we have seen you post about releasing stuff like skin packs, hilts, and now your own mod. When? Do you still plan on releasing these? So far all I have seen is pre-release stuff, which isn't even available anymore. While you post about the problems you have with Lee, he continues to work on and improve what is already an excellent mod. Perhaps if you actually post something, your arguments and comments would have some more merit.

Pyro
08-15-2003, 11:32 PM
RUMOR TOLD ME THAT WAS TOO MEAN SO I EDIT AND JUST SAY PLZ STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS THX NO ONE CARES REALLY

g//plaZma
08-15-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Pyro
RUMOR TOLD ME THAT WAS TOO MEAN SO I EDIT AND JUST SAY PLZ STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS THX NO ONE CARES REALLY

Rumor
08-16-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma


thxu

Marker0077
08-19-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Inskipp
(Cross posted in gamingforums.com, since no one seems to have replied or read that one)Sorry, I have been real busy lately with helping out family, which has kept me away from the computer quite a bit.Originally posted by Inskipp
I don't really get it.

So the guy used a website you designed, big deal. Actually I don't even like it, but that's my opinion. It's not like it's the culmination of a lifetime career. It isn't even very complex. Even for a novice like me, it doesn't seem like it would take a lot of time to complete.It's not the point, the guy broke a verbal agreement between the 2 of us. The deal was, he could use my work if I could use his - he refused (even though we had an agreement that I could use the work), therefore, he should not be permitted to use my work. End of subject.Originally posted by Inskipp
2nd, the only "work" that you may have done that Lee includes in the current mod is the hilt pack. And quite honestly, Lee included a hilt pack with FFAmod 1.0, well before you (Marker0077) were even involved. Aside from a few edits, it doesn't seem like much work.The hilt pack he was using before was from JediMod - not my hilt pack. I spent a lot of time on those hilts, especially the sword ones so that if you have colored sabers set to 0 0 0 50 50 50 the only thing you see is the actual sword hilt & not a colored blade. Then there are also some other hilt standards as well.

The hilts were not the only thing I did. I also did the loading screen & quite a few of the features implemented in the mod I never even got credit for. Hell, Lee told me I was an idiot because the g_timeouttospec CVar was for timing out 999 players, which if any of you MoHAA or SoF2 players well know, that is not the case. I showed him docs from other games, I not only did not recieve credit, I never even got an apology - that's Lee. Lee will never admit when he is wrong or make an apology. He never has in the 5 months that I knew him.

"It's a fine line between pride & ingorance."

The non-interferance code was originally conceived by a coder named Jaii De Herr & Lee rufuses to acknowledge that he is the original concept designer, regardless that Lee improved the code. Actually he did a whole new one but the point is, the concept was originally by him & Lee refuses to give him credit.Originally posted by Inskipp
3rd, I have extensively tested damage in duelers, with two side by side computers, and find it to be no different than base game, jedimod, or jediplus (at defaults). Sure the blue lunge does 60hp. That is because it usually hits twice!The blue lunge does 30 damage normally in base game & does 60 if you are up close. The blue lunge thing is old news & I had even apologized about the whole thing. The only reason I blew up is because of the way the dude treated me - you don't know half the crap I put up with before I left & you know why I left? Because he refused to fix Orange damage - that's it. Orange damage does about 55 in not only all previous versions of Duelers, all versions of JediMod & JediMod based mods as well.Originally posted by Inskipp
g_saberdamagescale can be set to what ever you want, so someone who thinks damage is too high on their server can change it to 0.9, or 0.8, or even lower if you like. Easily resolved!That CVar changes all damages, not just one, but it is neither here nor there.Originally posted by Inskipp
If orange damage is different, who really cares.Who cares? Umm, probably only the people that use it. :-/ I heard the Sith Vikings clan & the SoS'ers compaining about it quite a bit.Originally posted by Inskipp
It's not part of the base game and I think it is pretty much up to the author of the mod to determine its damage.Well the point of making the mod is to expand from the base game. As far as "pretty much up to the author", that's Lee talking. For you to stand there, have people vote on features & for you to not add them is just plain ignorant IMO. There are some features where I can see where he is coming from, such as abusive admin commands, but he declines 90% of the features the community recommends; & yes, I did start a lot of those threads, not all however.

Lee used to code ideas the community had, now all he does is code what he wants without considering what his users & fellow staff members might think. I didn't leave Duelers because of that though. He has the right to decline new features no matter what my opinion is. For him to not fix what he messed up on the other hand, is a different scenario.Originally posted by Inskipp
4th, look at this from a realistic point of view. Lee wrote what could be the best mod for JK2. The actual code itself is completely his work. Hours upon hours were spent coding, testing, and coding again to make this mod what it is today. Sure you spent I'm sure quite a bit of time making hilts, skin packs, and installers for it. But if you volunteered to do this, you are entitled to no compensation whatsoever.So basically what you are saying is, it's okay for him to use my work but it's not okay for me to use his? How convenient.

Look, if the guy was more of a team player then this would not have been an issue, like I said, I just wanted him to fix what he messed up in Orange - he refused. Then I asked him to keep the verbal agreement him & I had made & allow me to use the source code, in return I would still produce future updates for my work that he uses - he refused. Then I said fine, you don't want to honor our agreement, then you keep your work & I'll keep mine, he then stole my work. I'm sorry, I have just tried to be reasonable too many times, now it's my turn to not be reasonable. He brought this on himself.Originally posted by Inskipp
Quite honestly, I think the animosity between you and Lee was the direct result of the argument about damage of lunge in 1.02, about which you have previously posted an apology about, after you realized you were wrong. If I were in Lee's position, I too would certainly have trouble working with someone who posted such things about me, even after the apology.You don't see the email that go between us. The guy was rude & plays holier than though at times which is why I blew up. He thinks he's a pro just because he can code, even though other coders catch some mistakes on his part. I realize I should have remained professional regardless of his poor choice of verbage but I have put over 5 months into my work. You'll have to excuse me if I take things a little personally.Originally posted by Inskipp
Lastly, you are given credit in the mod's docs for your work. From what I've seen in the modding community, this is often enough.LMAO. I recieved credit for some of my work, not all. I didn't recieve credit for at least 70% of the features in Duelers itself, which I am not even pursuing for obvious reasons.Originally posted by Inskipp
Regardless, what is your point? The website? I can't imagine that would be so important to you. The fact that Lee won't give you the source? I wouldn't either, now that certain attitudes have become apparent.The point is if he is not willing to share his work, why should I share mine? The fact of the matter is we had an agreement - he broke it. Even then I was just going to part ways but instead, he had to steal my work. From my point of view, that makes you a liar & a thief.Originally posted by Inskipp
After all, this is a mod, for a game. The real coding was done by Lee, and only Lee.[/QUOUE]Who did the media work? Who did all the graphic design for the loading screen, the website, etc; etc. Who set up the JK2Files.com account? Who set up the forums? Who did the hilts that everyone "raves" about?

There is a lot more to this than just the coding. Even if I could code, I wouldn't have time for it. No one had even heard of this thing until I came into the picture & I never even did any real media attention, only a little.[QUOTE]Originally posted by Inskipp
I'm sorry if you spent a lot of time on it, but that is what volunteering is all about.Everybody's a volunteer, even Lee.Originally posted by Inskipp
This is NOT a company, so don't expect it to be like one.Well that certainly doesn't seem to be the case with Lee considering he labels my work as company property.Originally posted by Inskipp
Lee was kind enough to write a great mod, and it was great of you to try to make it better, but remember, the CODE for the mod was written by Lee. The rest of the stuff, the hilts, the models, the installer, and even the sound pack, was really all just fluff.Work is work. Lee is not the only coder in town & I had other coders lined up, he just knew he wouldn't be able to take the competition, which is why he broke our agreement.

Again, if he is not willing to share his work, then I don't see why I am obligated to share mine. I tried to work out a variety of negotiations with him - he refused all. It's his way or no way, so I chose no way.

Once Young Obi-Wan (Cool Saber Sounds mod author) heard of what Lee was doing, he told me he was going to ask Lee to just not use his work anymore either. Just goes to show you, if you don't want to share your work with others, perhaps others won't want to share their work with you. Perhaps if he could build a half decent site for himself, then he wouldn't have to steal from others.Originally posted by Inskipp
I just wanted to defend Lee, since no one else will.He's a big boy & I gave him quite a few opportunities to speak on his own behalf. Hell, I even offered to post his response everywhere I posted - he refused. It's his own fault.Originally posted by Inskipp
The mod, conceived by him, and coded by him, deserves recognition.LoL. Lee only conceived *maybe* 1/3 of the features in the mod. I am making a guess, I would have to look more thoroughly through the features, however, I know there are a ton of ideas in there I never got credit for, as well as others.

If I never got credit for a variety of the features, I'm sure the same thing applies to others as well.Originally posted by Inskipp
I have played jk2 since the day it came out, and this is, by far, the best mod there is.I still prefer 1.2.1 just because the actual dueling is better there. In 1.3, you can get hit just 1 time by a RDFA & have it take way too much damage. There are some other minor bugs as well but the Orange damage was a huge thing to me because I like using multiple blades.Originally posted by Inskipp
Also Marker0077, for a long time now we have seen you post about releasing stuff like skin packs, hilts, and now your own mod. When? Do you still plan on releasing these? So far all I have seen is pre-release stuff, which isn't even available anymore.Actually, that's somewhat of a funny part. Before I left Duelers, I had Duelers Full done. I needed to do a couple of minor things to Skins Pack A but I was done. Now I have to do a whole new installer, most of which is done & would have been released had it not been for my uncle moving & him needing my help. I have had some other family members that needed some help as well, so that has kept me away almost completely for the past 2 weeks. I am hoping to have everything out the door next week but we shall see. I also have some legality issues to look into with the project before it's release because of this ridiculous situation.Originally posted by Inskipp
While you post about the problems you have with Lee, he continues to work on and improve what is already an excellent mod. Perhaps if you actually post something, your arguments and comments would have some more merit.From what I hear, Lee hasn't been working on Duelers at all. He talks about doing 1.3.1 but hell, I heard about that even when I was still on the project.

In any event, whether or not my work is released or not has nothing to do merit-wise with what he steals from me, so I have no clue what you are on about there.

Inskipp
08-19-2003, 08:08 PM
The hilts were not the only thing I did. I also did the loading screen & quite a few of the features implemented in the mod I never even got credit for. Hell, Lee told me I was an idiot because the g_timeouttospec CVar was for timing out 999 players, which if any of you MoHAA or SoF2 players well know, that is not the case. I showed him docs from other games, I not only did not recieve credit, I never even got an apology - that's Lee. Lee will never admit when he is wrong or make an apology. He never has in the 5 months that I knew him.

That's not the same Lee I know. I was in a clan with him for months, and never did he call anyone an "idiot" or not admit when he was wrong. Maybe if you weren't shoving docs for other games in his face, he would have agreed to listen, then again, maybe not.

The non-interferance code was originally conceived by a coder named Jaii De Herr & Lee rufuses to acknowledge that he is the original concept designer, regardless that Lee improved the code. Actually he did a whole new one but the point is, the concept was originally by him & Lee refuses to give him credit.

Credit for what? The idea? There are lots of idea's that are in Duelers that no one takes or gets credit for. I had an idea for a personal computer in 1980, and then Atari built one just like it! And I never got credit!

Who cares? Umm, probably only the people that use it. :-/ I heard the Sith Vikings clan & the SoS'ers compaining about it quite a bit.

As far as orange damage goes, I happen to be a member of SoS, and also the server administrator, who happens to read the logs, and never ONCE did I see someone complain about the orange damage. Certainly not any SoS members. Most of the members of SoS use one saber, and too, most of the Vikings that I have dueled. Thus the damage in orange stance is irrelevant.

Too, I spoke with Lee at length about damage, and he told me he never did any code that changes it. After some thought, we determined that it was possible for it to change, simply because the code is different than it was originally.


You don't see the email that go between us. The guy was rude & plays holier than though at times which is why I blew up. He thinks he's a pro just because he can code, even though other coders catch some mistakes on his part. I realize I should have remained professional regardless of his poor choice of verbage but I have put over 5 months into my work. You'll have to excuse me if I take things a little personally.

You are right, I have never seen any of the emails between you. So I do excuse you, I really have no right to post about any of this, but I do, because I like duelers.

LMAO. I recieved credit for some of my work, not all. I didn't recieve credit for at least 70% of the features in Duelers itself, which I am not even pursuing for obvious reasons.

70%? That is very odd. There was one night when Lee, Daelina, and I were playing on our server and Lee mentioned that he might code a mod. Thus FFAmod was born. I was upset about it at first, because I knew it would be the end of our clan, but ALL of the ideas for FFAmod were conceived that night, and several nights to follow. I didn't see you around then Marker, and as a matter of fact, MOST of the idea's were Daelina's. I don't see him posting in here about 'suing Lee' for stealing his 'ideas'.

Who did the media work? Who did all the graphic design for the loading screen, the website, etc; etc. Who set up the JK2Files.com account? Who set up the forums? Who did the hilts that everyone "raves" about?

Who cares? Lee wrote the mod for us. We continue to use it, to make our playing experience better. Everything above you mention, while noteworthy, have nothing at all to do with the code for the mod. As far as the hilts, it was real nice of you to help out with that, but quite honestly, I like to duel. I don't care who has what hilt, or who made it.

There is a lot more to this than just the coding. Even if I could code, I wouldn't have time for it. No one had even heard of this thing until I came into the picture & I never even did any real media attention, only a little.

I disagree. We had many players using Duelers even before you were involved. I concede that if things had gone as you intended, the mod might have grown to be the most popular for the game. But alas, the few servers that run it seem to be quite content with it's features, and continue to use it.

LoL. Lee only conceived *maybe* 1/3 of the features in the mod. I am making a guess, I would have to look more thoroughly through the features, however, I know there are a ton of ideas in there I never got credit for, as well as others.

I agree. I was there that night. A lot of the ideas came from Daelina, and even a couple from me. Others were the results of specific clans requests. And quite a few of them came from the parts of jediplus 4.3 that we liked.

From what I hear, Lee hasn't been working on Duelers at all. He talks about doing 1.3.1 but hell, I heard about that even when I was still on the project.

Odd, I have been beta testing 1.3.1 for over a week. The new features added were ideas from the clans The Jedi Order, SoS, and the Vikings, along with some other posts in the suggestions forum. It is very well done, and I'm sure it won't be long before a Duelers 1.3.1 final is released.

Other than all this Marker, I have no quarrel with you. Lee has written a tailor-made mod for whomever chooses to download it. I did not intend for this to become what now looks like a flame war, and which will likely get this thread closed because of that.

By the way, good luck with your lawsuit, you are likely to need it.

(P.S.) How do you get quotes from other posts to say 'posted by so-and-so? I can't seem to get the knack of it.

Marker0077
08-20-2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Inskipp
That's not the same Lee I know. I was in a clan with him for months, and never did he call anyone an "idiot" or not admit when he was wrong.I knew him for 5 months, he never once admitted when he was wrong nor apologized for anything - not once.

How much communication was there between you & Lee? Did you speak with one another on a daily basis? We did for quite some time. Perhaps he is not the person you think he is or perhaps he is just bitter about letting a so called "amateur" know more about certain things than he does. Lee knows more about some things than I do & vice versa, there's no shame in that, yet I still had to deal with it.Originally posted by Inskipp
Maybe if you weren't shoving docs for other games in his face, he would have agreed to listen, then again, maybe not.Shoving? Ya dude, I really shoved it in his face. That just goes to show how much you know on this.

I told him he should fix the CVar & what the CVar did, that's when he said I didn't know what I was talking about. The "idiot" thing I believe was an exxageration on my part, my apologies, I believe his exact words were something like "that is not what that feature does & I have no idea where you get your information but that is not what the feature does" or something like that. There were some other derogatory comments like I was an "amateur" & whatnot (only amateur modding for 10 years), so while he may not have actually said "idiot", it's not all that far from it either now is it?Originally posted by Inskipp
Credit for what? The idea? There are lots of idea's that are in Duelers that no one takes or gets credit for. I had an idea for a personal computer in 1980, and then Atari built one just like it! And I never got credit!Now you are just being irrational. Saying you came up with the concept for the personal computer & people adding ideas you came up with in a mod is a huge exageration - huge.

Lee obviously felt the need to give credit for ideas & concepts in the mod, otherwise why would he have even added that I came up with the multi-duel concept & Daelina came up with the fuel for jetpack concept, etc; etc. This is no different.

Before you go posting about, please think about what you are saying because like I said, now you are just being ridiculous.Originally posted by Inskipp
As far as orange damage goes, I happen to be a member of SoS, and also the server administrator, who happens to read the logs, and never ONCE did I see someone complain about the orange damage. Certainly not any SoS members. Most of the members of SoS use one saber, and too, most of the Vikings that I have dueled. Thus the damage in orange stance is irrelevant.
Just because you weren't around when it happened, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I haven't played Duelers since I left the team but when I did play, I would say something about it then others in the room would agree. I'm sure others would like the damage changed, afterall, I did do a poll on whether or not that should be changed. It was damn near unanamous, did Lee care? Hell no, because he's not the team player he used to be. Check your own forums, lucasforums, darkstats forums, sith vikings forums or jk2files.com forums for the thread if you don't believe me.

Actually, you probably can't find it on JK2Files.com forums because Lee removed just about all the threads I made. Instead of speaking his opinion on the matter, he just removes it altogether.

Anyways, the Orange does matter to anyone who uses it; Again, that's Lee talking.Originally posted by Inskipp
Too, I spoke with Lee at length about damage, and he told me he never did any code that changes it. After some thought, we determined that it was possible for it to change, simply because the code is different than it was originally.He told me I was mistaken about the Orange damage, even when I had Daelina & even you I believe, informing him that there was a difference in damage. I don't give a damn what the code says, play the mod, you'll see it plain as day.Originally posted by Inskipp
Thus FFAmod was born. I was upset about it at first, because I knew it would be the end of our clan, but ALL of the ideas for FFAmod were conceived that night, and several nights to follow. I didn't see you around then Marker, and as a matter of fact, MOST of the idea's were Daelina's.Well obviously I am not referring to FFAMod considering I wasn't a part of the team then. The mod was changed to Duelers when I became a part of the team, Duelers versions are what I am referring to. I would think that would be common knowledge, but whatever.Originally posted by Inskipp
I don't see him posting in here about 'suing Lee' for stealing his 'ideas'.Well that's a mute point. Concept design is not as much work as the actual coding, which is why I don't pursue that. You can't seriously ask Lee to remove the feature just because you leave the team, it's ridiculous. Work I did on the other hand is a different situation.Originally posted by Inskipp
Who cares? Lee wrote the mod for us. We continue to use it, to make our playing experience better. Everything above you mention, while noteworthy, have nothing at all to do with the code for the mod. As far as the hilts, it was real nice of you to help out with that, but quite honestly, I like to duel. I don't care who has what hilt, or who made it.
Do you even read what I post man? This whole thing is about him not using my work. EVERYONE DID SOMETHING. Coding, while is the centerpiece, is not everything. NO ONE even heard of Duelers until I came around, again, I never even did any real media attention. Wait until CM for JK2 is out. All the downloads that you see from that *could* have been Duelers. This was his choice - not mine.

Anyways, the point is I tried to work out a variety of arrangements with him. #1 I would stay on Duelers if he fixed Orange damage - he refused. #2 He could continue to use my work as long as he honored the verbal agreement him & I had already made, which was allowing me to use the source code - he refused. Even after he went back on our agreement I was willing to just part ways, he keeps his work, I keep mine. I was trying to be a nice guy & give him 3 days pre-warning about him needing to put a new site up, instead he stole my work.Originally posted by Inskipp
I disagree. We had many players using Duelers even before you were involved. I concede that if things had gone as you intended, the mod might have grown to be the most popular for the game. But alas, the few servers that run it seem to be quite content with it's features, and continue to use it.There were 3 or 4, maybe 5 servers - tops running FFAMod. I don't know why you would believe that.Originally posted by Inskipp
Odd, I have been beta testing 1.3.1 for over a week. The new features added were ideas from the clans The Jedi Order, SoS, and the Vikings, along with some other posts in the suggestions forum. It is very well done, and I'm sure it won't be long before a Duelers 1.3.1 final is released.Well if *anything* of mine is in there, don't be too surprised if it gets pulled from the files section. I still have a couple of surprises yet.

I do not plan on pursuing removing the older versions of Duelers from the files section, that is just not fair, however, I have been getting treated far from fair with this as far as Lee is concerned. I have tried to be Mr. Nice Guy & time & time again I have been taken advantage of. I am getting real close to the point of unreasonability.Originally posted by Inskipp
By the way, good luck with your lawsuit, you are likely to need it.You think so? :-) We'll see. I have of yet to get in contact with a copyright lawyer, I keep getting sidetracked but it should be sometime soon. From what I have read, I won't need any luck.Originally posted by Inskipp
(P.S.) How do you get quotes from other posts to say 'posted by so-and-so? I can't seem to get the knack of it.Click on the "quote" button on the bottom right of posts.

g//plaZma
08-20-2003, 03:06 AM
Refer to the above post posted by Pyro. All the info you need is there. Problem solved :)

Marker0077
08-20-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Refer to the above post posted by Pyro. All the info you need is there. Problem solved :) If you're not going to contribute anything useful to the thread, don't post please. Especially considering this is not something you even care about.

Darklighter
08-20-2003, 09:19 AM
Plazma, please post things relevant to the thread topic. Simple "yes I agree" comments are not welcome here.

Lan Judd
10-10-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Inskipp
That's not the same Lee I know. I was in a clan with him for months, and never did he call anyone an "idiot" or not admit when he was wrong. Maybe if you weren't shoving docs for other games in his face, he would have agreed to listen, then again, maybe not. <<<<WELL THEN MARKENT HAS A GRUDGE AGAINST HIM OR HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH



Credit for what? The idea? There are lots of idea's that are in Duelers that no one takes or gets credit for. I had an idea for a personal computer in 1980, and then Atari built one just like it! And I never got credit! <<<YOU DIDNT START MAKING IT. YOU JUST CAME UP WITH THE IDEA



As far as orange damage goes, I happen to be a member of SoS, and also the server administrator, who happens to read the logs, and never ONCE did I see someone complain about the orange damage. Certainly not any SoS members. Most of the members of SoS use one saber, and too, most of the Vikings that I have dueled. Thus the damage in orange stance is irrelevant.

Too, I spoke with Lee at length about damage, and he told me he never did any code that changes it. After some thought, we determined that it was possible for it to change, simply because the code is different than it was originally. <<<< IF YOU BELIEVE THIS YOUR THE GULLIBALEIST PERSON ON THE EARTH




You are right, I have never seen any of the emails between you. So I do excuse you, I really have no right to post about any of this, but I do, because I like duelers.



70%? That is very odd. There was one night when Lee, Daelina, and I were playing on our server and Lee mentioned that he might code a mod. Thus FFAmod was born. I was upset about it at first, because I knew it would be the end of our clan, but ALL of the ideas for FFAmod were conceived that night, and several nights to follow. I didn't see you around then Marker, and as a matter of fact, MOST of the idea's were Daelina's. I don't see him posting in here about 'suing Lee' for stealing his 'ideas'. <<<SHE CAME UP WITH THE IDEA. SHE DIDN'T DO ANY WORK



Who cares? Lee wrote the mod for us. We continue to use it, to make our playing experience better. Everything above you mention, while noteworthy, have nothing at all to do with the code for the mod. As far as the hilts, it was real nice of you to help out with that, but quite honestly, I like to duel. I don't care who has what hilt, or who made it. <<<< STOLE THE WORK



I disagree. We had many players using Duelers even before you were involved. I concede that if things had gone as you intended, the mod might have grown to be the most popular for the game. But alas, the few servers that run it seem to be quite content with it's features, and continue to use it. <<<<THEY DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM OR THE SERVERS HOST WERE FARTHEADS



I agree. I was there that night. A lot of the ideas came from Daelina, and even a couple from me. Others were the results of specific clans requests. And quite a few of them came from the parts of jediplus 4.3 that we liked. <<<<< ONCE AGAIN IT WAS AN IDEA. YOU DIDN'T DO ANY WORK



Odd, I have been beta testing 1.3.1 for over a week. The new features added were ideas from the clans The Jedi Order, SoS, and the Vikings, along with some other posts in the suggestions forum. It is very well done, and I'm sure it won't be long before a Duelers 1.3.1 final is released.

Other than all this Marker, I have no quarrel with you. Lee has written a tailor-made mod for whomever chooses to download it. I did not intend for this to become what now looks like a flame war, and which will likely get this thread closed because of that.

By the way, good luck with your lawsuit, you are likely to need it.<<<< THIS IS WHERE YOUR PISSED EVERYONE OFF.

(P.S.) How do you get quotes from other posts to say 'posted by so-and-so? I can't seem to get the knack of it.<<< THIS SHOWS HOW NAIVE YOU ARE THE "WORLD AROUND YOU"

Yo skipp, why don't you go saber rape yourself cuz Market has 100% every damn right to b1t<h about this. Market, I agree with completely with you on this and Inskipp you need to be quiet (hush litte Inskipp before your mouth gets you grounded. LoL) because right now you've pissed a lot a people off cuz they understand were Lee is being a jackass <<<< Yea Lee thats what your acting like). Also Inskipp talk to me on AIM and I'll explain it better.

Inskipp
10-10-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Lan Judd
Yo skipp, why don't you go saber rape yourself cuz Market has 100% every damn right to b1t<h about this.

Ok, I will go "saber rape" myself about this, but I will do it in Jedi Academy. Well spoken by the way...

Didn't you notice that there has been no activity in this thread for almost 2 months?

Luc Solar
10-10-2003, 06:31 PM
Lol...I think there's like 3 people in the whole wide world who have any interest in this topic whatsoever.

Can't you guys just work it out via pm's or something?

So...yeah - what Pyro said. :)

Inskipp
10-10-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Lol...I think there's like 3 people in the whole wide world who have any interest in this topic whatsoever.


That's where you are wrong. NOBODY has any interest in this topic whatsoever. Jedi Academy is out. I don't intend to play much JK2 anymore. I did get a good chuckle out of Lan Judd's post though. I really don't think GULLIBALEIST is a word. Yes, a good chuckle.

Rad Blackrose
10-10-2003, 09:32 PM
http://www.ascendancy.net/tribalwar/DieThreadDie.jpg

Nuff said.

Marker0077
10-13-2003, 03:37 AM
Soz about the delay on the response, I spend most of my time offline currently working on the project.

As for Rad Blackrose, Inskipp, & Luc Solar, if you have no interest in the topic then why post here? Do you have nothing better to do than to complain here? I haven't worked on the Cool Mods for MoHAA project for over a year & I still get fan mail, my mail is no different for Cool Mods for the JK Series.

If you have no interest in the project or in this case, affairs that relate to it - that's fine, you are more than entitled to your own opinion, however, the people that are interested in the project come here to hear about the project, not to listen to you cry about someone posting information on it.

Lan Judd, I appreciate the support but please refrain yourself from leaving derogatory comments, it only degrades you down to their level. Don't get me wrong, I mean no offense, all I'm saying is we come here to exchange information between one another, leave the derogatory comments in flame war threads.

As for the whole Duelers thing, it's a dead issue. The Duelers mod files are no longer hosted at JK2Files.com or anywhere else as far as I know & as long as they contain ANY of my work & they are posted publically, I will pursue whomever hosts the files legally. That's just what Lee gets for being a selfish prick about it & if he wants to use others work in the future then he should share his own.

FYI, Cool Mods for JK should be ready in about 30 to 90 days & it will have 1 version for JK2 & another for JK3, so good stuff to come.

Many thanks to the authors that give me copyright over my modified version of their work.

MasterN64
10-13-2003, 10:20 AM
eerrr, i stoped after the first few paragraphs. but anyway the parts i did read was, interesting.......

traj
10-13-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Darklighter
Plazma, please post things relevant to the thread topic. Simple "yes I agree" comments are not welcome here.

Yes I agree. Stop it Plazma.

Prime
10-14-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
it is also a place where you can leave commentary on the upcoming release of Cool Mods for JK2. You asked for commentary about the project, and Rad Blackrose, Inskipp, and Luc Solar gave their opinions. You have to take the good with the bad if you ask for comments.

As for mine, I don't have an interest in JO mods any more, since I am now playing JA. Not only that, but all the things that would make me want to go back to JO, like the SP and MP maps, models, sabers, and so on more or less work just fine in JA anyway. There really isn't anything to make me want to play a JO mod.

That, and I enjoy the sabers more or less how they are anyway :)

Originally posted by Marker0077
his side of the story is), his position is this was work I had done for Duelers so it should stay with Duelers just like if this was a real business but if this was a real business, a person would receive payment (i.e. being permitted to use the source code, which BTW I did try to work out with him as a deal beforehand) or the persons work would go with them. From what I see, he is right. If the work was done for this project, and you left and this other guy still owns it, then he still owns the work done for the project. By leaving, you give up any right to that work. At least that's how things work in a "real" business (whatever that is). The person's work never goes with them when they leave a company.

As for the payment thing, that isn't really an issue either. If you had been promised payment in the first place and didn't receive it, that's one thing. But this was never part of the agreement, correct?

Originally posted by Marker0077
A company would not use a persons work & not pay them for it, this should be no different if you going to say the work I have done is "Duelers property". But if the inital agreement was that there wouldn't be payment, then of course they could still use the work. This happens all the time in the real world. It doesn't change the fact that the work is the property of the project, which from what I understand you no longer own.

Originally posted by Marker0077
All in all, me leaving Duelers would have never even been an issue in the first place if Lee was being more of a team player. It is nice when everyone gets along, but you cannot demand that everyone be a "team player". Just a sad fact of life. :(

Originally posted by Marker0077
There were a variety of threads that were taken up on various ideas that I & some of the other users had & we voted on them. I don't really see how voting on ideas really means anything. If the other party is not interested in them, voting on them means nothing.

Originally posted by Marker0077
It was at this point that I realized that he was no longer going to be reasonable nor a team player (like he used to be), so that's when I decided to give him these 2 ultimatums... Which he seems to have refused. I think that is within his right.

Originally posted by Marker0077
I am now once again giving Lee this opportunity to tell his side of the story, although I highly doubt he will have anything to say but you never know. Which is fine. I don't think his responding in public forums solves much. Who does he need to convince?

Originally posted by Marker0077
As for me, I still plan on doing Cool Mods for JK2 which will feature the web site I had created. If Lee chooses to use stolen work that is his choice, however, while I was originally happy to finally let this thing rest, Lee's choices on removing my posts & stealing my work is making feel like I not only need to bring this back up but do it on a much larger scale which means I am going to be doing quite a bit of media attention on this matter. You can choose to do so, but keep in mind that if you keep bringing the issue up then it will never die. Also, others may disagree with you and that may hurt the exposure for your project. And since JO is being played substantially less now that JA is out, you probably need all the good publicity you can get.

EDIT: P.S. Most of the links you give don't work for me...

Marker0077
10-20-2003, 02:45 AM
First off, soz for the long delay on the response. Again, I am not online much anymore.Originally posted by Prime
You asked for commentary about the project, and Rad Blackrose, Inskipp, and Luc Solar gave their opinions. You have to take the good with the bad if you ask for comments.Saying "NOBODY has any interest in this topic whatsoever" & leaving a picture that says "Die thread die" isn't really commentary in my book, more like crying.Originally posted by Prime
I don't have an interest in JO mods any more, since I am now playing JAIt's Cool Mods for the Jedi Knight Series, not just JK2. I want to release them both at the same time but we'll see what happens, I am doing quite a bit of work on both.Originally posted by Prime
There really isn't anything to make me want to play a JO modThese are client side mods mainly but need to be on servers that are pure obviously, so it's really neither here nor there.Originally posted by Prime
From what I see, he is right. If the work was done for this project, and you left and this other guy still owns it, then he still owns the work done for the project. By leaving, you give up any right to that work. At least that's how things work in a "real" business (whatever that is). The person's work never goes with them when they leave a company.I could see that applying if I worked for the guy - I didn't, we were partners & he knew my work would go with me if I would leave, which is why he stole my work.

Regardless, this isn't a company & even if it was, companies pay their employees, I mean come on - name 1 company that doesn't pay their employees.

Bottom line is if he's not willing to share his work, I don't see why I would be obligated to share mine. I am morally & legally in the right on this (considering I own copyright on my work).Originally posted by Prime
As for the payment thing, that isn't really an issue either. If you had been promised payment in the first place and didn't receive it, that's one thing. But this was never part of the agreement, correct?Ya he did actually. He said I could use the source code for my own mod with the Jedi Academy mod coder - he backed out of the deal.Originally posted by Prime
But if the inital agreement was that there wouldn't be payment, then of course they could still use the work. This happens all the time in the real world. It doesn't change the fact that the work is the property of the project, which from what I understand you no longer own.Lets say you use your car to deliver pizzas for Domino's pizza or maybe even let some of the other employees use your car & then you quit, should Domino's get your car? It's ridiculous, I let him use what is mine because we were *supposed* to be a team.

Just because it was used for the project doesn't automatically entitle him to ownership - not by a long shot.Originally posted by Prime
It is nice when everyone gets along, but you cannot demand that everyone be a "team player". Just a sad fact of life.It's a choice he had to make. I'm either apart of the team or I am not & if I am going to be treated with no value then why should I stick around? The guy used to be a team player & things were great then, I'm sure I am not the easiest person to get along with at times but I guarantee you I put up with a hell of alot more of his BS than vice versa. I'm glad that I am no longer on the team, it's alot less stress. The community are the real ones that suffer. It's a damn shame but I can only do so much.Originally posted by Prime
I don't really see how voting on ideas really means anything. If the other party is not interested in them, voting on them means nothing.If people want something added & it's nothing that breeds admin abuse (such as slap commands) then why the hell would you not add it? Giving the people what they want is one of the things that made it such a great mod.Originally posted by Prime
Which he seems to have refused. I think that is within his right.No one was questioning his right to decline the offer, the problem was if you don't want to share your toys with the rest of the kids on the playground, don't cry (or in this case, steal) the rest of the other kids. A somewhat degrading analogy, I appologize, but suits the situation rather well IMO.Originally posted by Prime
Which is fine. I don't think his responding in public forums solves much. Who does he need to convince?Other modders no longer want their work associated with the man because of this. This was his opportunity to salvage what remained of his reputation in the community.Originally posted by Prime
You can choose to do so, but keep in mind that if you keep bringing the issue up then it will never die. Also, others may disagree with you and that may hurt the exposure for your project. And since JO is being played substantially less now that JA is out, you probably need all the good publicity you can get.I'm not worried about publicity & I only post it because I get people asking "so what happened" so I leave the information posted so I don't have to answer emails, or IMs, or whatever.

Besides, I tried to do all I could for the man & I got screwed over in the end. I think letting everyone who wants to know about it know is the least I could get.Originally posted by Prime
EDIT: P.S. Most of the links you give don't work for me...Sorry, I'm not online much & until I have the project done, it's not really a concern of mine. I will have them fixed when I can though, soz for any inconvenience.

Marker0077 LATE EDIT: You know what's funny? The people that say no one is interested in this thread, yet it has been viewed over 1000 times when most of the other threads don't even get viewed 1/10th of that.

Prime
10-22-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
First off, soz for the long delay on the response. Again, I am not online much anymore.Saying "NOBODY has any interest in this topic whatsoever" & leaving a picture that says "Die thread die" isn't really commentary in my book, more like crying. You might not consider it commentary, but they might. I don't see how it is crying though. They are just expressing their opinions, which you asked for. Sure they could have expressed them in a different manner, but hey.

Originally posted by Marker0077
It's Cool Mods for the Jedi Knight Series, not just JK2. I want to release them both at the same time but we'll see what happens, I am doing quite a bit of work on both.These are client side mods mainly but need to be on servers that are pure obviously, so it's really neither here nor there. I am not all that familiar with this mod, so I'm not sure what it really changes. I know that for myself, and I suspect for most others, JA is definitely what we are playing right now. JO mods just don't seem to be in too much demand these days. If they are, it is only because they are usable in JA (like maps and such).

Originally posted by Marker0077
I could see that applying if I worked for the guy - I didn't, we were partners & he knew my work would go with me if I would leave, which is why he stole my work. If this was the expressed arangement, fine. All I am saying is that this is not the typical business arrangement, either between employer and employee, or partners.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Regardless, this isn't a company & even if it was, companies pay their employees, I mean come on - name 1 company that doesn't pay their employees. Any company that uses volunteers?

Originally posted by Marker0077
Bottom line is if he's not willing to share his work, I don't see why I would be obligated to share mine. I am morally & legally in the right on this (considering I own copyright on my work). OK, I need to get this straight in my head. The code/website that is in question, was this created for the partnership and project, or did you bring that with you into the project, and it was only used by the project? If it was created for the project, then the copyright belongs to the project, which sadly you are no longer a part of.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Lets say you use your car to deliver pizzas for Domino's pizza or maybe even let some of the other employees use your car & then you quit, should Domino's get your car? It's ridiculous, I let him use what is mine because we were *supposed* to be a team. Again, if you brought the code with you into the arrangement, fine. But if it was created for the project, it is owned by the project, and this example doesn't apply. It would be like saying that you are entitled to the company car when you leave the company. This is also ridiculous.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Just because it was used for the project doesn't automatically entitle him to ownership - not by a long shot.It's a choice he had to make. But if it was created for the project, it does entitle him to ownership, because he owns the project. When you left the project, nothing that was owned by the project goes with you.

Originally posted by Marker0077
I'm either apart of the team or I am not & if I am going to be treated with no value then why should I stick around? If that is how you feel then by all means leave. I'm just saying that depending on what work was done for the project, the rights to it will not leave with you.

Originally posted by Marker0077
If people want something added & it's nothing that breeds admin abuse (such as slap commands) then why the hell would you not add it? Giving the people what they want is one of the things that made it such a great mod. Well, just because people want something in the game doesn't necessarily mean it is a good thing. I'm not refering to your mod in particular, just a general comment. Many people want things that would adversely affect the balances inherent in the game, as well as reduce the enjoyment of the game for others (for example the slap commands you mentioned). Putting these sorts of things in would not improve the game, even if there are many who want it. All I am saying is that many things should be taken into consideration when adding features. Just because some people want it is not enough, IMO.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Other modders no longer want their work associated with the man because of this. This was his opportunity to salvage what remained of his reputation in the community. I'm not worried about publicity & I only post it because I get people asking "so what happened" so I leave the information posted so I don't have to answer emails, or IMs, or whatever. Fair enough.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Sorry, I'm not online much & until I have the project done, it's not really a concern of mine. I will have them fixed when I can though, soz for any inconvenience. No problem. Just letting you know.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Marker0077 LATE EDIT: You know what's funny? The people that say no one is interested in this thread, yet it has been viewed over 1000 times when most of the other threads don't even get viewed 1/10th of that. Well, don't confuse view counts with interest. The first time I popped in this thread was not because I was interested in the mod, but because I was wondering about what kind of rant this would be :) I suspect that many (most?) of those views were not by people who were wondering about the fate of this mod, but by people who were wondering who the hell Lee Oattes is, why he is trying to hide what you say, and generally hoping to get a laugh out of some good flames.

MasterSidious
10-22-2003, 06:33 PM
I think force mod 2.0 owns everything else. And Jedi Academy sucks, just for admin power plus really buggy. I know this is the shortest post in here but it would make my hands hurt typing THAT MUCH. :D

Doctor Shaft
10-23-2003, 07:35 PM
Sigh... I can't believe this discussion was even resurrected. Anyway, without being involved with Duelers for more than maybe two days of playing it, then seeing that age old post about disagreements, here's my take.

1.) Marker, you got jipped. Yeah, you guys made a 'verbal' agreement, and at the end, Lee, deciding that he did not want you to tarnish the vision of his game, since he did indeed construct it, backed out of the deal. He went against his word, that you claim he gave you. Don't worry, I believe you. He did it... TOO BAD.

2.) Hilt packs, sounds, installers, mean absolutely nothing when there is no substance to put them on. If I make the filling of the tasty pie, but you make the oh-so-easy to construct crust, are you suddenly a significant contributor to the project? Your name was acknowledged for the work you have done. He did the creme filling, you did the crust. No one cares that much about the crust, nor do we recognize it as the core of a mod. If people were that desperate for skins and hilts, they could have looked elsewhere. Thank you, however, for taking the time to remove that kind of hassle. I'll admit, it was hard work, and decent of you. Move on.

3.) Thanks to a squabble over orange stance damage, which in the end, was so NOT-controversial, and HARDLY problematic to the 'balance' of your mod, Duelers is dead. Thank you again Marker, you did a fabulous job. It's obvious, considering that Lee doesn't ever post back, neither at the old forums or the new threads, that you're the focal point of the squabble. I'm sorry that you didn't get every part of your Duelers turned into Nerf Wiffle Bat mod. The man didn't feel like changing something that hardly needed fixing. Green stance was slower, did the same damage I think, but had it's uses. Orange was definitely NOT the end all of weaponry.

Despite my obviously biased opinion about Duelers... I'll just come out and flat admit that I didn't like the mod. I don't like playing games with no risk. That's irrelevant to the discussion though. What is relevant is this. He went back on his word. It's done, you don't have power over work he sweated his life over. HE changed his mind, it hurts your feelings.... eh, too bad. He has your work, he's using it in some ways even though you don't want him to... yeah, too bad again. You should have thought about what you were putting out there in the first place. It's obvious Lee was.

It's a cutthroat world. No, I'm not trying to say that Lee was right and you were wrong, or even the wrong way around. I'm just saying that at the core of it... your little squabble over a saber stance not being tweaked so that it hit like a wiffle bat destroyed Duelers. Votes from a mass of people doesn't matter. Lee didn't want to code it, and you gave him trouble. Now everyone has slit throats. Duelers is dead... and personally, i never thought it was good. Nice effort though. On that note however, it seems we've all learned a lesson from this. Don't tag on to a mod with a coder unless you're absolutely certain that the two of you are seeing eye to eye. And second... get better diplomacy skills when dealing with arguments about the mod. It's obvious that one side pissed off the other. I think you know who started it. The end. Let's all move on now.

Marker0077
10-24-2003, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Prime
You might not consider it commentary, but they might. I don't see how it is crying though.Crying is sarcasm for whining, which is what they are doing. All they are doing is leaving negative &/or derogatory commentary as opposed to saying something useful. They may as well just be saying "you suck". While technically you are saying something, in all reality, you're not.Originally posted by Prime
I am not all that familiar with this mod, so I'm not sure what it really changes. I know that for myself, and I suspect for most others, JA is definitely what we are playing right now. JO mods just don't seem to be in too much demand these days. If they are, it is only because they are usable in JA (like maps and such).Well I still prefer playing JK2 myself because the damage settings for single saber are absolutely ridiculous in JK3. So far I have been on 1 linux NF server that had decent settings & was reasonable damage settings-wise with the single saber, however, all the others I have played are incredibly dissapointing.

Anyways, this is a collection of the best mods around. I took the best skins & models, did tons of bug fixes, added more sounds, gave them more bot support, decreased the file size by 2/3s, etc; etc. Then there are the standard & non-standard hilts packs, the hilts standards are things like all the hilt blades are in the same position, all the hilts are at least decent looking (no tie-dye hilt crap), etc; etc. Should be hot stuff, we'll see.Originally posted by Prime
If this was the expressed arangement, fine. All I am saying is that this is not the typical business arrangement, either between employer and employee, or partners.You'd be surprised.

Morally, you shouldn't use someone elses work against their will. Legally, I own copyright on my work & my own copyright on my modified version of some of the third party authors work as well (they are that pleased with the work I do). So, legally & morally this is a hands down case - case closed.Originally posted by Prime
Any company that uses volunteers?First off, everyones a volunteer, including Lee. Secondly, legal tender is not the only form of payment, in this case it's not legal tender.Originally posted by Prime
OK, I need to get this straight in my head. The code/website that is in question, was this created for the partnership and project, or did you bring that with you into the project, and it was only used by the project? If it was created for the project, then the copyright belongs to the project, which sadly you are no longer a part of.I made all graphics design work such as the loading screen & website, I did the advertising, I set up the forums, I did the hilts pack, etc; etc. Lee was the coder.

Again, I own copyright on anything I made & I even own my own copyright on some of the modified versions of the third party authors work as well, which in Duelers case would be the hilts pack.

Even if I made something solely for the purpose of the project, without any signed legal contract giving Lee copyrights on my work, I own the work. You don't just work for a project, make something for a project & the owner of the project gets the work, that's not how the law works, I know, I went over this with a copyright attorney for a week.Originally posted by Prime
Again, if you brought the code with you into the arrangement, fine. But if it was created for the project, it is owned by the project, and this example doesn't apply. It would be like saying that you are entitled to the company car when you leave the company. This is also ridiculous.Um, no. You either have no idea how the law works or you are just not getting what it is I am telling you.

When you make something (in the United States), copyright is secured upon creation & these laws are applicable in most other countries. Whether or not you are apart of the project is not is totally regardless, there is no law that says if you work for a company or you are apart of a team, the owner of that team or company automatically gets copyright. Now if you signed a contract (which most companies do when highering employees), then it may or may not be different, but without some sort of signed contract or agreement, theres no way in hell the owner of the project is entitled to ownership. Not by a long shot.Originally posted by Prime
But if it was created for the project, it does entitle him to ownership, because he owns the project. When you left the project, nothing that was owned by the project goes with you.I made the website for the work I was doing & I made some custom stuff so it could be used for Duelers, so I would have made the site either way but that's regardless, even if I had made it for him, because I am the author, I am the one who is solely entitled to ownership - that is U.S. federal copyright law, which again, is applicable in most other countries. If he wanted copyright on my work for being apart of the project, he would have needed to have me sign an agreement of some kind, which would obviously would never have happened.Originally posted by Prime
Just because some people want it is not enough, IMO.Right, this is the main reason why I am trying to get a coders union of some kind started. Razorace already has one going sort of. I know it may sound corny but there are just some do's & don'ts when it comes to coding & it is important that the coding community is aware of them; Look at JA mod. After informing Chosen One on how damaging the older versions of JA mod can be, he decided to not include a variety of the older features that encourage cheating (like terminater) or admin abuse (back to the slap command), etc; etc.Originally posted by Prime
...but by people who were wondering who the hell Lee Oattes is, why he is trying to hide what you say, and generally hoping to get a laugh out of some good flames.Despite the arguement between Lee & I, and of course my personal feelings towards the man, I have to say that Duelers mod is still BY FAR the best client & server side mod available for JK2. It's too bad it's not downloadable at this time (JK2Files.com removed the files & he never uploaded his work again without mine). Unfortunately, the community are the ones who suffer from this type of behavior.

I do have plans on requesting permission for me to include Duelers in Cool Mods or just upload the mod all by itself without anyone elses work. I would be willing to pimp the thing off either way, I just can't allow someone to steal my work, I had to make an example out of this guy. Now that I think about it, I wish I would have sued JK2Files.com for not removing the files at first, that would have made a much better example but I was trying to salvage my job, but that's a different story.Originally posted by MasterSidious
I think force mod 2.0 owns everything else. And Jedi Academy sucks, just for admin power plus really buggy. I know this is the shortest post in here but it would make my hands hurt typing THAT MUCH.Ya, it was a good mod but again, Duelers is still the best by far; For online use anyways.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
1.) Marker, you got jipped. Yeah, you guys made a 'verbal' agreement, and at the end, Lee, deciding that he did not want you to tarnish the vision of his game, since he did indeed construct it, backed out of the deal. He went against his word, that you claim he gave you. Don't worry, I believe you. He did it... TOO BAD.While I was pist at first, I was over it by the next day, so that's not really my beef. My beef is, I trusted the guy enough to leave my stuff up for 3 days so he had enough time to come up with his own site & instead he ripped me off. We may have not have seen eye to eye - that's one thing, but there still should have been some value of trust there or at least some ethics.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
2.) Hilt packs, sounds, installers, mean absolutely nothing when there is no substance to put them on. If I make the filling of the tasty pie, but you make the oh-so-easy to construct crust, are you suddenly a significant contributor to the project? Your name was acknowledged for the work you have done. He did the creme filling, you did the crust. No one cares that much about the crust, nor do we recognize it as the core of a mod. If people were that desperate for skins and hilts, they could have looked elsewhere. Thank you, however, for taking the time to remove that kind of hassle. I'll admit, it was hard work, and decent of you. Move on.People ranted & raved about the hilts pack, now maybe it didn't have the same effect for you but it certainly did for most of the other Duelers users. Even if it wasn't though, if "no one cares" about it, then why all the hassle about removing it? Why not just remove it & throw the same hilt pack in there that comes with JediMod? He knew damn well what kind of a job I did & things just wouldn't be the same.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
3.) Thanks to a squabble over orange stance damage, which in the end, was so NOT-controversial, and HARDLY problematic to the 'balance' of your mod, Duelers is dead. I don't agree. When I play with multiple blades I use only the 2 extra stances, not all 5, so that makes a big difference when playing like that.

As far as Duelers being dead, yes it is & that is truely sad because it is a great mod. Again, I do have intentions on getting Duelers back into circulation just because I think it is the proffessional thing to do, but we'll see what happens.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
I'm sorry that you didn't get every part of your Duelers turned into Nerf Wiffle Bat mod.lol, make all the jokes about Action Outcast all you like (which if I do pursue, I will probably call Jedi Action), but the mod concept is based on Action Quake 2 & that mod was the best & still gets played to this very day.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Orange was definitely NOT the end all of weaponry.The point was, if you are going to do something, do it right or don't do it at all. The thing was obviously messed up because not only was it different in every version earlier than 1.3, but it was also different in every other JediMod based mod. He messed it up, he should have fixed it. Considering it would take all of 5 minutes to fix & he declined to do so just proves he is not willing to be reasonable anymore, so I decided to leave & take my work with me.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Despite my obviously biased opinion about Duelers... I'll just come out and flat admit that I didn't like the mod. I don't like playing games with no risk.I'm not sure what it is you are referring to by no risk, it improves dueling & you can win or lose - that's a risk. I'm sure I am not understanding what it is you are saying though, you seem like an intelligent individual, which is refreshing at times; Not saying anything about anyone here, just saying at times I do deal with morons or people who just refuse to pay attention to what it is that is being told to them yet for some odd reason continue to leave posts or email me.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
He went back on his word. It's done, you don't have power over work he sweated his life over. HE changed his mind, it hurts your feelings.... eh, too bad.Whether I had rights to his work is regardless, I wouldn't use it against his will. It's just plain bad word of mouth, know what I mean? My feelings weren't really hurt, it's not like I cried over the thing FFS, all I am saying is I thought I knew the guy & I expected him to be a bit more honorable. Such is life.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
He has your work, he's using it in some ways even though you don't want him to... yeah, too bad again. Actually to bad for anyone who hosts it. I may eventually just put a court order or something on Lee himself but I have my own reasons for doing things the way I am currently.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
You should have thought about what you were putting out there in the first place. It's obvious Lee was.Ya, no doubt. Now I have a terms of use drawn up for anyone who uses the mods. It's nothing unreasonable, it basically states that anyone can use our work as long as they allow anyone else to use their work as well. I had to go through alot of hassle to make that happen.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
your little squabble over a saber stance not being tweaked so that it hit like a wiffle bat destroyed Duelers.Um, I don't know where you get your info man, but that's not what killed Duelers. In a sense, yes if the damage settings were correct on Orange I would have stayed on the team but the reality of the matter is the guy wasn't a team player anymore & something else would have lead to the two of us splitting ways.

What killed Duelers was me leaving it. I made the website, I handled public relations (i.e. I maintained the various forums (meaning not just the Duelers forums) & talked with everyone in-game, etc; etc.) I did the advertising, I made the eye candy (graphic design work), etc; etc.

Lee's a damn fine coder - I can't take that away from the man, but he has no foresight nor consideration for public relation, meaning people are lazy in general; So that's one of the reasons why I make an installer, it's just easier & you don't have to deal with as many n00b questions. More than that, it just makes a better quality product in general. He doesn't care about any of that & more importantly, he doesn't care about someone who provided all of that to him & his project. It was a judgement call he had to make, owell.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Votes from a mass of people doesn't matter.Well that's just a differance in opinion between the two of us. I think it's the best way to perfect anything.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Lee didn't want to code it, and you gave him trouble. Now everyone has slit throats. Duelers is deadJust for the record, I gave him trouble for stealing my work - nothing more. I am a proffessional & even though I was totally screwed over, I still endorse & promote Duelers, as long as he isn't using my work (unless he follows the CM terms of use, which I know he won't).

You know, now that I really think about it, I don't want to include Duelers in Cool Mods just because if I did, that would mean i really should support it as well & that might lead up to needing to stay in contact with Lee, which I totally do not want to do. The last thing I want is to start up this nightmare again. I'd be willing to upload Duelers alone (with no other mods, just Duelers), endorse & promote it but that's as far as it will go. That's just what proffessionalism is to me.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Don't tag on to a mod with a coder unless you're absolutely certain that the two of you are seeing eye to eye.We did see eye to eye at first but things change after time. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS MAKE AN AGREEMENT when coming onto staff or highering staff.Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
And second... get better diplomacy skills when dealing with arguments about the mod. It's obvious that one side pissed off the other. I think you know who started it.You lost me a little on this one. It's obvious you know something (or at least think you do) that you are not saying but I am not exactly sure what it is. I am speculating that it is in regards to my misjudgement of the blue damage settings & the public posts I had made about that, however, I had made a public apology about that. You couldn't get Lee to make a private apology no matter how wrong he was & no matter how hard you tried, but I was willing to accept that as long as the teamwork remained. When that left, so did I.

IMO, I don't think this was anyone starting anything. There were a variety of times that Lee said things that I unknowingly took out of context & even more so vice versa. Then it was little things that were not out of context. It just snowballed from there.

Luc Solar
10-24-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Well, don't confuse view counts with interest. The first time I popped in this thread was not because I was interested in the mod, but because I was wondering about what kind of rant this would be :) I suspect that many (most?) of those views were not by people who were wondering about the fate of this mod, but by people who were wondering who the hell Lee Oattes is, why he is trying to hide what you say, and generally hoping to get a laugh out of some good flames.

Right. The reason why I posted what I posted was because I felt (like a lot of others I presume) that there's suddenly a thread on the forum about "Why never-heard-of-him left duel-what(??) and why never-heard-of-him-either is trying to hide what never-heard-of-him sais & cool mods (???) for JK2"

It just seems like a "I don't like my friend bobby anymore because he is a stinking liar and stole my spiderman magazine and I want it back"-kind of thread. You know - like "who what where and why should I care and why is this posted here?"

But maybe that's just me and Rad and Inskipp and g//plaZma and Pyro.. however - seeing the "Valley" as dead as it is, there's hardly no reason to whine about a thread being un-interesting or whatever.

You guys go ahead and post. I won't complain anymore, shouldn't have done it in the first place but I guess I was drunk. I do that sometimes when I'm drunk. :o

Prime
10-24-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
Crying is sarcasm for whining, which is what they are doing. All they are doing is leaving negative &/or derogatory commentary as opposed to saying something useful. They may as well just be saying "you suck". While technically you are saying something, in all reality, you're not. They could have been more polite, but the sentiment that they don't care about the mod is a valid one. It is one I happen to share, unfortunately. Not a knock against the mod, but I, like many others, are not interested in JO mods anymore. :(

Originally posted by Marker0077
Well I still prefer playing JK2 myself because the damage settings for single saber are absolutely ridiculous in JK3. So far I have been on 1 linux NF server that had decent settings & was reasonable damage settings-wise with the single saber, however, all the others I have played are incredibly dissapointing. You are entitled to feel that way and stick with JO, but you will be a part of a ever-dwindling minority.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Anyways, this is a collection of the best mods around. I took the best skins & models, did tons of bug fixes, added more sounds, gave them more bot support, decreased the file size by 2/3s, etc; etc. Then there are the standard & non-standard hilts packs, the hilts standards are things like all the hilt blades are in the same position, all the hilts are at least decent looking (no tie-dye hilt crap), etc; etc. Should be hot stuff...So basically you took stuff from elsewhere and tweeked it. I'm sure it is all nice stuff, but I doubt any mods that don't work with JA will be "hot stuff".

Originally posted by Marker0077
Um, no. You either have no idea how the law works or you are just not getting what it is I am telling you. Seeing as I work in the software industry, I do have some knowledge. Since I can see I am not getting what you are saying, continuing to go around in circles is pointless. I will end my comments on that subject here. :)

Originally posted by Marker0077
Now that I think about it, I wish I would have sued JK2Files.com for not removing the files at first Is that really necessary? They'd just take it down right away, and no one would use the mod at all, and your work would go to waste. You win, I guess.

Originally posted by Marker0077
While I was pist at first, I was over it by the next day But it seems as you are not over it, as you want to use legal action.

Originally posted by Marker0077
We may have not have seen eye to eye - that's one thing, but there still should have been some value of trust there or at least some ethics. You cannot demand trust and ethics from others, and you cannot operate under that assumption.

Originally posted by Marker0077
People ranted & raved about the hilts pack, now maybe it didn't have the same effect for you but it certainly did for most of the other Duelers users. I'm sure they are all very pretty. But hilts and hilt packs are a dime a dozen these days. Once people have Obi-Wan's and Luke's, the rest are gravey. I doubt hilts would mean the success or failure of the mod.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Even if it wasn't though, if "no one cares" about it, then why all the hassle about removing it? Why not just remove it & throw the same hilt pack in there that comes with JediMod? I suspect it was because he felt he owned them, and therefore saw no reason not to use them. If Duelers was good, I bet it would be just as successful with Jedimod hilts, or any hilts for that matter. If all people wanted out of the mod was hilts, they'd just go and download the hilts directly. People play mods for what the mod does, not because it has forums, hilts, or websites.

Originally posted by Marker0077
make all the jokes about Action Outcast all you like (which if I do pursue, I will probably call Jedi Action), but the mod concept is based on Action Quake 2 & that mod was the best & still gets played to this very day. Quake games have a much larger (as far as I know) player base than JO ever did. Certainly, the number of people playing JO these days has dropped dramatically. So a JO specific mod would have a tough time getting widespread use at this stage.

Originally posted by Marker0077
The point was, if you are going to do something, do it right or don't do it at all. Apparently the choice was don't do it at all :)

Originally posted by Marker0077
The thing was obviously messed up because not only was it different in every version earlier than 1.3, but it was also different in every other JediMod based mod. He messed it up, he should have fixed it. Considering it would take all of 5 minutes to fix & he declined to do so just proves he is not willing to be reasonable anymore, so I decided to leave & take my work with me. Your demanding that he change something is just as stubborn as his not changing it.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Whether I had rights to his work is regardless, I wouldn't use it against his will. It's just plain bad word of mouth, know what I mean? My feelings weren't really hurt, it's not like I cried over the thing FFS, all I am saying is I thought I knew the guy & I expected him to be a bit more honorable. Such is life.Actually to bad for anyone who hosts it. I may eventually just put a court order or something on Lee himself but I have my own reasons for doing things the way I am currently. This is all just getting creepy...

Originally posted by Marker0077
What killed Duelers was me leaving it. I made the website, I handled public relations (i.e. I maintained the various forums (meaning not just the Duelers forums) & talked with everyone in-game, etc; etc.) I did the advertising, I made the eye candy (graphic design work), etc; etc. But all this stuff is frivelous extras. Forums, websites, advertising (advertising how? Posting on a bunch of forums?) and eye candy are all nice I guess, but they don't really decide the success or failure of a mod. If the mod was what people wanted, they would play it. If not, they won't. Just because it has forums or nice loading screens means very little. As for websites, the vast majority of the community gets their downloads from places like jediknight, pcgamemods, jk2files, and so on. That's all the advertising you need, really. personally, I don't think I have ever gone to a mod's or model's website. I go to one of the main sites, check the details and screenshots, and download. It might just be me, but I think you are overstating the contribution of these things to the success of the mod.

Originally posted by Marker0077
It was a judgement call he had to make, owell. And he made it :)

Marker0077
10-24-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
It just seems like a "I don't like my friend bobby anymore because he is a stinking liar and stole my spiderman magazine and I want it back"-kind of thread.Well if you had put a large amount of effort into something & had something like this happen to you, you may have a different point of view. There are other modders who didn't spend 1/4th the time I did on my work & totally knew where I was coming from & support me in what I am doing.

It is however a somewhat fair analogy in my opinion because this whole ordeal is a bit childish but I have to stand up for myself.Originally posted by Luc Solar
But maybe that's just me and Rad and Inskipp and g//plaZma and Pyro.. however - seeing the "Valley" as dead as it is, there's hardly no reason to whine about a thread being un-interesting or whatever. Inskipp is just pissed because he loves the mod & because of me it's no longer even downloadable; Regardless of anything that Lee may have done, he sends the built up negativity my way & doesn't say 1/4th of the same crap he gives to me to Lee. Well sorry dude but if Lee wasn't such a selfish prick, you (Inskipp) wouldn't have that problem. He didn't want to share his toys so who the hell are you (Inskipp) to get pissed at me for not allowing him to use mine. I'll still try & do the proffessional thing I get Duelers out there, however, you have no right to be pissed at me just because I fight for what is mine. Lee brought this on himself & everyone else.

I don't know what everyone else's deal is. My personal belief is if you go & post in a thread you don't even like just to leave negative or derogatory commentary, you're a whiner who whines because you enjoy whining. Now I'm not saying that just because you leave negative commentary you're a whiner, what I am saying is if you are doing so without contributing anything genuinely useful to the thread, you're a whiner who appearently whines for personal enjoyment. If you don't enjoy whining, than you wouldn't waste your time contributing to a thread you don't even care about in the first place. If it is truely as uninsteresting as they say it is, the thread will go away, if it comes back than appearently someone has some interest in it & it's rather adolescent to leave these kinds of posts just because you don't share the same amount of interest in the subject. We don't go ranting about in threads you like, so please show us the same amount of respect. It's common courtesy FFS.Originally posted by Prime
They could have been more polite, but the sentiment that they don't care about the mod is a valid one. It is one I happen to share, unfortunately.The paragraph above that is addressed to Luc Solar applies to this as well. If the thread is still around then appearently someone wants to know, you shouldn't come raining on our parade just because you don't share the same level of interest on the topic. Again, common courtesy.Originally posted by Prime
Not a knock against the mod, but I, like many others, are not interested in JO mods anymore.Well this is the JK2 section, not JK3. This is where this stuff goes.Originally posted by Prime
You are entitled to feel that way and stick with JO, but you will be a part of a ever-dwindling minority.I switch between JO & JA. The damage settings are just absolutely upsurd in JA & I don't understand how people who are so smart could be so stupid. JA has alot of other things to offer as well, so I am of course still interested but all the real die hard duelists will still play JO until a patch for JA comes out to fix this mess.Originally posted by Prime
So basically you took stuff from elsewhere and tweeked it. I'm sure it is all nice stuff, but I doubt any mods that don't work with JA will be "hot stuff".I am doing more than just tweaking it but from an outsiders point of view, ya that's a fair essesment of what I am doing.

Who said they don't work for JA? There is 1 version for JK2 & another for JK3.Originally posted by Prime
Is that really necessary? They'd just take it down right away, and no one would use the mod at all, and your work would go to waste. You win, I guess.You would think that none of that would be necessary, wouldn't you? That's what I thought but I was wrong in this instance.Originally posted by Prime
But it seems as you are not over it, as you want to use legal action.I had worked with the man for 5 months & I thought he was an honerable guy & was obviously wrong about it; So when I said "I was over it the next day", I was referring to it on a personal level - not proffessional.

You still need to stand up for yourself otherwise someone else might try & take advantage of you as well. I was hella nice about this whole thing & just got blown off time after time trying to salvage my job & then in the end got fired anyways over a petty dispute. Looking back on it now, I wish I hadn't been so nice.Originally posted by Prime
You cannot demand trust and ethics from others, and you cannot operate under that assumption.Well appearently we just have 2 different definitions of what common courtesy is. It would appear that this is my mistake in this instance.Originally posted by Prime
I'm sure they are all very pretty. But hilts and hilt packs are a dime a dozen these days. Once people have Obi-Wan's and Luke's, the rest are gravey. I doubt hilts would mean the success or failure of the mod.Have you even seen the hilts pack? Granted, yes it was icing on the cake but it was one hell of an icing job. There were tons of hilts you couldn't get anywhere else, a variety of sword hilts, some of which were reversable, the chainsaw hilt, etc; etc. There is no other hilt pack like mine. There are so many hilt packs that don't even have textures because whoever put it together did a half fast job or just didn't know what they were doing. Hilts aren't supposed to be grey & black all over, that's not some nifty design, it's a screw up. Anyways, to each their own I suppose.Originally posted by Prime
I suspect it was because he felt he owned them, and therefore saw no reason not to use them. If Duelers was good, I bet it would be just as successful with Jedimod hilts, or any hilts for that matter. If all people wanted out of the mod was hilts, they'd just go and download the hilts directly. People play mods for what the mod does, not because it has forums, hilts, or websites.Look, I never said the hilts would make or break the mod, all I said was the hilts are the best around & eye candy is a big thing, it makes a difference. Also, people don't want to download 50 hilts & put them all in there - you know? These hilts have all been "tweaked" out & work properly & look just as good as they did before or better.

As for the website, more eye candy but not that great of eye candy. It's decent. The forums though, that's the best way of communicating with your users & by far the best way to improve not only the mod, but anything & everything else from the hilts to the manual.

People go to someone for the whole package deal, if you put a good show together & they are happy with the service you provide, they'll refer their friends & other related organizations will do the same as well.

The forums, or hilts, or manual, or whatever alone may seem like nothing but they are each a drop in the bucket.Originally posted by Prime
Quake games have a much larger (as far as I know) player base than JO ever did. Certainly, the number of people playing JO these days has dropped dramatically. So a JO specific mod would have a tough time getting widespread use at this stage.Again, drop in the bucket.Originally posted by Prime
Apparently the choice was don't do it at allNo it wasn't, he put out a new version of Duelers, although at this point, it is probably don't do it at all. I think he may get back into this once the JA source is out.Originally posted by Prime
Your demanding that he change something is just as stubborn as his not changing it.Not really. When we first started Duelers we were a team that actually worked together, now he was refusing to. It's not like this was the first time something like this came up, however, it was obviously the last.

If I am going to be apart of a team, I NEED to be apart of the team. I dealt with the cocky comments about what a "proffessional" he is & what an "amateur" I was (even though I've been modding games for 10 years), I dealt with majority of features that everyone voted on that we wanted (& some of which was a quick add) & got totally disregarded, etc; etc. This was a no brainer, he had it right in his own docs that the damage was supposed to be one thing & it wasnt, plus all other JediMod based mods & every other Duelers versions were at those settings, etc; etc. - he messed up & it was a quick fix & he refused to, I mean, where exactly do you think I should draw the line?Originally posted by Prime
But all this stuff is frivelous extras. Forums, websites, advertising (advertising how? Posting on a bunch of forums?) and eye candy are all nice I guess, but they don't really decide the success or failure of a mod. Forums are not the only form of advertising & I do stand corrected on that, I had planned on doing much more advertising when Full was released, for the most part I was concentrating on that. When CM is released, you'll see "advertising how" & whether or not I am right or wrong about how successfull I can make this or have made Duelers.

Who do you think maintained the forums & dealt with all the users, made the website, made the hosting account for the website, worked on full, etc; etc. It's obvious you don't know 1/4th of the stuff I had done but why would you, you don't even like the mod.Originally posted by Prime
If the mod was what people wanted, they would play it. If not, they won't.People aren't going to play what they don't know even know about. ForceMod II probably had the most advertising of any JK2 mod & Duelers had more servers than they did & again, we didn't do all that much advertising. That *should* tell you something because ForceMod II is not a crappy mod.Originally posted by Prime
the community gets their downloads from places like jediknight, pcgamemods, jk2files, and so on. That's all the advertising you need, reallyThere's more to it than that but ya, the more advertising the better. those are some of the places I advertise when I do so, but those places aren't going to provide sound previews & all the promo screenies the new CM site does or news updates about the project, etc; etc. If you make a good enough product, people will check up on it from time to time & the best place to find out about it is on its web site.Originally posted by Prime
It might just be me, but I think you are overstating the contribution of these things to the success of the mod.Well hopefully we will soon find out.

Prime
10-25-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Marker0077
I don't know what everyone else's deal is. My personal belief is if you go & post in a thread you don't even like just to leave negative or derogatory commentary, you're a whiner who whines because you enjoy whining. Or they just like keeping the flames going. That certainly is common place. Just ignore them if you really want them to go away. From the looks of it, they already have.

Originally posted by Marker0077
If it is truely as uninsteresting as they say it is, the thread will go away, if it comes back than appearently someone has some interest in it. I assume you are refering to the mod here? Let's see...there are about 29 posts in this thread, and exactly zero posts are asking/stating interest in Duelers mod. The only reason this thread isn't going away is because most people are stating they have no interest in this whole Lee situation and you and I are "conversatin". This thread will die soon enough when I grow bored with it :D I'm just kidding, but I may be right nonetheless.

Originally posted by Marker0077
it's rather adolescent to leave these kinds of posts just because you don't share the same amount of interest in the subject. In case you haven't noticed, a good percentage of people around here are adolescents :)

Originally posted by Marker0077
If the thread is still around then appearently someone wants to know, you shouldn't come raining on our parade just because you don't share the same level of interest on the topic. Frankly, I'm not sure why I am still around. For some reason "interested in the topic" doesn't really discribes why I'm here. I just like stating my opinions, I guess. Or I like seeing my post count go up :)

As for "our parade", I'm not sure who "our" is. You seem to be the only one here that is interested in Duelers mod. That is not ment as a shot, just an observation.

Originally posted by Marker0077
I switch between JO & JA. The damage settings are just absolutely upsurd in JA & I don't understand how people who are so smart could be so stupid. JA has alot of other things to offer as well, so I am of course still interested but all the real die hard duelists will still play JO until a patch for JA comes out to fix this mess. What do you not like about the damage settings? Is it to high or two low for you?

Originally posted by Marker0077
Who said they don't work for JA? There is 1 version for JK2 & another for JK3. I though you had said it. I don't recall if it is mentioned somewhere in the sea of posts, but just about everything I've seen says it is a JK2 mod. And since I am assuming there is some code in there somehere, and since the code for JA hasn't been released, I concluded that it wouldn't work in JA. Is this incorrect? I might not be, but everything is starting to blur together.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Well appearently we just have 2 different definitions of what common courtesy is. I don't think so. I think our definitions are pretty close. I'm only pointing out that common courtesy is anything but common...

Originally posted by Marker0077
Have you even seen the hilts pack? Nope. Like I said, I've never heard of this mod. However, it is entirely possible I have seen hilts that you have since tweeked. Who knows?

Originally posted by Marker0077
Also, people don't want to download 50 hilts & put them all in there - you know? I'd say most do download individual hilts, or at least small groups of them. I know many people who don't download large files, due to bandwidth reasons. Personally, I perfer getting them one at a time, since I hate having to download a pack to get the one I want. Rarely, if ever, do I want them all.

Originally posted by Marker0077
These hilts have all been "tweaked" out & work properly & look just as good as they did before or better. I hope they are better, otherwise, what's the point?

Originally posted by Marker0077
he messed up & it was a quick fix & he refused to, I mean, where exactly do you think I should draw the line? It doesn't matter where I would draw the line. You gotta do what you gotta do. Now you have to live with the consequences.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Forums are not the only form of advertising & I do stand corrected on that, I had planned on doing much more advertising when Full was released, for the most part I was concentrating on that. When CM is released, you'll see "advertising how" & whether or not I am right or wrong about how successfull I can make this or have made Duelers. In case there was a misunderstanding, which i don't know if there was or not, my question about "advertising how" was not sarcastic. I wasn't sure what you were refering to. :)

But you're right. You'll see if it matters soon enough.

Originally posted by Marker0077
It's obvious you don't know 1/4th of the stuff I had done but why would you, you don't even like the mod. Not true. I don't like or dislike the mod. I know next to nothing about it, apart from it having lots of hilts. So really, I have nothing to base an opinion on. I'm sure you have done all sorts of wonderful things and worked very hard.

Marker0077
10-25-2003, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Prime
I assume you are refering to the mod here? Let's see...there are about 29 posts in this thread, and exactly zero posts are asking/stating interest in Duelers mod.You haven't read this thread. Inskipp has an interest in Duelers & the 2 of us said some things about the whole BS that happened between Lee & I, Lan Judd has an interest in these topics as well as an interest in CM for JKS (my project), mastern64 didn't want to read through all these book of posts but did say that the project sounds interesting & a few other people left some other commentary as well. Again, if no one cares about this thread then they will stop posting in it (which I am hoping is sometime soon because this is a dead issue, although I do appreciate any support) but for now, it appears to be of some peoples interest.Originally posted by Prime
The only reason this thread isn't going away is because most people are stating they have no interest in this whole Lee situation and you and I are "conversatin".As stated up above, it's not just you & me. I know that there are some book of posts in here but what you are saying isn't entirely correct.Originally posted by Prime
As for "our parade", I'm not sure who "our" is. You seem to be the only one here that is interested in Duelers mod. That is not ment as a shot, just an observation.Again, back to my past 2 answers...Originally posted by Prime
What do you not like about the damage settings? Is it to high or two low for you?Some are too high & some are too low. The standard red swing being maxed out at 30 hps is absolutely ridiculous & it would also appear that alot of the damage taken is randomized because I have done full on red specials on people & have it do only 15 damage, which also is upsurd. With JK2, blue did 25 damage horizontally & 30 damage vertically, yellow did 30 damage both directions, & red did 50 damage horizontally & I don't recall the exact vertical damage but it was hella damaging. This is just a change for the worse as far as actual damage settings go. I realize that now people spawn with 100 hps & not 100/25 but still, red should be at AT LEAST 40 hps damage & obviously having someone take a saber & put it through your head, have it come out your ass & then call it 15 damage is a bit of an error as well.

It just needs more work. It will always need more work but in this case, it really needs more work ASAP.Originally posted by Prime
I though you had said it. I don't recall if it is mentioned somewhere in the sea of posts, but just about everything I've seen says it is a JK2 mod. And since I am assuming there is some code in there somehere, and since the code for JA hasn't been released, I concluded that it wouldn't work in JA. Is this incorrect? I might not be, but everything is starting to blur together.Lee's a coder, not me. Even if I was, I wouldn't have time to code with all the stuff I currently have to do on the table.

When this thread started there was no JK3 so that's why JK3 isn't in the name but I never stated I wasn't doing this for JK3 as well.Originally posted by Prime
Nope. Like I said, I've never heard of this mod. However, it is entirely possible I have seen hilts that you have since tweeked. Who knows?I've gone back & forth between so many people between emails, posts & PMs that i can't keep track anymore but the fact you had never seen my hilts pack showed. Wait until CM is out, you'll see what I mean.Originally posted by Prime
I'd say most do download individual hilts, or at least small groups of them. I know many people who don't download large files, due to bandwidth reasons. Personally, I perfer getting them one at a time, since I hate having to download a pack to get the one I want. Rarely, if ever, do I want them all.Well this will feature an actual installer so even if you do have a previous version of any of these hilts, it can move them for you (you are given an option).

As for bandwidth, all the hilts, sound, weapon & any other mods are probably going to only be about 10 megs, so that's not much of a download, especially considering what you are getting in it. Skins Pack A is a heftier download (around 50 MB) but well worth it.

As for rarely ever wanting them all, this will probably be a first for you. I can't wait to be done with the project so I can let it speak for itself.Originally posted by Prime
Not true. I don't like or dislike the mod. I know next to nothing about it, apart from it having lots of hilts. So really, I have nothing to base an opinion on. I'm sure you have done all sorts of wonderful things and worked very hard.Well Duelers has a variety of features like the non-interferance code. What that does is it makes it so that when you accept a private duel, you do not see, anyone else in the room except your opponent. You also walk through anyone else in the room just like they weren't there. It's a huge FPS saver. lee was also originally the one to come up with the IP ban fix, there is a macro prevention code in there (not like xmod or whatever it was called, this one actually does what it is supposed to do & prevents nothing else), it is also the only mod with a code that supports proper reversed sabers (which I am thinking & hoping is built into JK3), it is also a jedimod based mod so it has all those jedimod features for the most part, etc; etc. Really excellent mod.

Prime
10-25-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
Some are too high & some are too low. The standard red swing being maxed out at 30 hps is absolutely ridiculous & it would also appear that alot of the damage taken is randomized because I have done full on red specials on people & have it do only 15 damage, which also is upsurd. With JK2, blue did 25 damage horizontally & 30 damage vertically, yellow did 30 damage both directions, & red did 50 damage horizontally & I don't recall the exact vertical damage but it was hella damaging. This is just a change for the worse as far as actual damage settings go. It just needs more work. Keep in mind that the damage in JA is location specific, unlike JO. Where you hit your opponant makes a big difference in how much damage is done. The damage model can be turned back to the JO model with a cvar.

Originally posted by Marker0077
this is a dead issue. Indeed it is. Good luck with your mod :)