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Havoc Stryphe
08-01-2003, 03:12 PM
First, let me say that I am well aware of where this thread technically belongs, but the very reason as to why I am posting this thread is why I am posting it here.

Secondly, Let me add that this thread is not meant to instigate any forum wars, flame wars, or fighting amoung members. It is merely an observation I have made that has me a little concerned.

I would now like to draw your attention to these threads:

Thread 1 (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=107446)

Thread 2 (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=106780) (This on is particularly long, but must be read in it's entirety to witness the affliction of which I am about to expound upon.)

It would seem that at least the Moderation, if not the entire membership, of the MI and Mix-n-Mojo boards are blatantly insulting the members of "Star Wars" forums, including their moderators, but if that were not enough, it seems they are becoming quite the group of elitists and egocentric snobs in general.

Their attitude and complete disregard for others is very disturbing. It seems to cause quite a rift in Lucasforums. It saddens me to see such a divide in such an, otherwise, great community. I believe that their attitudes alone should immediately disqualify them from being moderators.

Just but a little while ago, there was quite an uproar over the whole Point system abuse. Ironically, the same elite moderators I am addressing now, came to the defense of the obvious raping of the point system then, and some were even involved in that heinous plot. Now there are front and center again, in what seems to be a campaign of disregard for the other forums and their members.

The administration promised us during the whole "War of the Points", that they were going to address the situation. Instead of fixing the problem (The corrupt Moderators and membership) they simply did away with the system and diverted our attention to some new "toy" with which, I am sure, members will find a way to exploit and abuse given the proper amount of time and rogue moderator backing.

Why does the Lucasforums' Administration continue to condone the words and actions of these "Moderators" that put down the general membership and even the other moderators? Why do the admins turn a blind eye to such a potentially destructive attitude from those that should be examples of what a productive member should be and not the opposite.

I posted this here, because those moderators are abusive and abrasive in their replies, and band togethor to bring those who speak out to their knees, and I will not endure that for naught. I know that Rhett will see this and should he have valid reasons as to why their behavior and attitude is going unchecked, should please PM me those reasons. I would have PM'd Rhett these very thoughts I type now, but I wanted to give a head's up to my fellow members so they will not be caught in the web of disregard that these "rogue Mods" are weaving. Plus, this would have been 6-7 PM's and I'm too lazy to break it down into such. ;)

Again, I reitterate, though it may at first seem so, I do not wish to start a war or argument, but rather am seeking answers to my, as of yet, unaswered questions. If I have unjustly spoke ill of my fellow MI and Mix-n-Mojo members and Mods, I apologize. If my words seemed harsh, it would seem that their egos are quite capable of handling my slight rebukes and disregarding my "incessant buzzing" and recover just fine, but even so, I apologize in advance for any "false accusations" or "unfounded allegations". However, I think their words and actions speak for themselves, and they should at the very least stop typing the diminuitive remarks of others in their future posts, and keep them merely as the thoughts, however innappropriate, they are.

Does anyone see this behavoir, or am I imagining things. I know Lynk Formmer has observed it, any others?

Bob Gnarly
08-01-2003, 04:28 PM
I noticed it Havoc trust me i have since after i joined in a couple of months and decided to look around LF and popped into i think it was Sam and Max and there where a couple people that would insult me and like you say so i stuck around Jk2 community thinking maybe when i get enough posts they might not call me a n00b anymore but i was wrong. Anyways, i agree with you 100% Havoc the Mojo ( which arent all bad) and Mi community think there better because we like star wars..:P

Zygomaticus
08-01-2003, 04:39 PM
I too have seen it now that I have broken the bonds that hold me to the Off-Topic Discussion forum of GeeBee.

Posted by Anonymous
but outside of the Star Wars forums there are actually standards and expectations of intelligence.


That part really disappoints me. Especially considering it comes from one on the moderating team.

And I really don't see the need to warn or threaten to ban somebody just because he can't communicate his ideas as well. As others in that thread have vouched, he doesn't seem bad enough to warrant a warning. Ackbar does fine. Delphi did fine. ;)

I always believed that it was fair to give someone a warning for purposeful incompetence. But not for someone who really can't.

Oh well, that's all I have to say about that.

lukeiamyourdad
08-01-2003, 04:54 PM
It's a shame! It's a scandal!

Hell, I live in Québec, where english is almost the devil's language for about 45% of the population.

Poor RayJones...

Thank God we don't really have that problem here...I don't think our mods would have a problem with that...

Hey if he has spelling problems you can give him some pointers in a very nice way. Not warn him and threaten him!

It seems we are back into an era of prejudice and disgrace from the rulers.

Zygomaticus
08-01-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

It seems we are back into an era of prejudice and disgrace from the rulers.

Never fear :o

*points to avatar and sig*

:lol: :D

Clefo
08-01-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by krkode
Ackbar does fine.

No. he. doesn't. But we're not so xenophobic that we ban him for it. If they held the same standards to all forums that those arse's held RayJones, then half the forum (Including you, Krkode) would've been gone about 2 years ago

Edit: Havoc, I have noticed some elitism around the modding "community" but never this blunt

Sherack Nhar
08-01-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
It seems we are back into an era of prejudice and disgrace from the rulers. Was it ever gone? :D

Clefo
08-01-2003, 05:57 PM
In all seriousness, Sherack has a point

Zygomaticus
08-01-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Clefo
No. he. doesn't. But we're not so xenophobic that we ban him for it. If they held the same standards to all forums that those arse's held RayJones, then half the forum (Including you, Krkode) would've been gone about 2 years ago

Edit: Havoc, I have noticed some elitism around the modding "community" but never this blunt

I apologize for having left myself open for interpretation, and I apologize if I do it some more.

When I said "does fine," I referred to our treatment of him. Except for a few people (;)) most people try to be nice to him, and we don't seek to actively warn and/or ban him. Atleast I've noticed our mods turn a tolerant eye towards his apparent lack of skill, if not many of the members.

And I apologize again for my heinous past; I was young and foolish and new to this country. Now, don't make any wisecracks about how I'm still young and foolish. :D I ain't. ;)

Havoc Stryphe
08-01-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Clefo
In all seriousness, Sherack has a point

He does, but as you said Clefo, we have never seen it so blatant and obvious before. They openly rub the noses of others in their petty faults and differences all the while proclaiming their greatness. It's really quite disturbing...

Clefo
08-01-2003, 06:09 PM
What we need in this thread, is some music or something that proclaims "Justice!"

If you're a mod and you just try to put people down, then you have some psychiatric problems.. Maybe its caused by a small.. *ahem* never you mind

Sherack Nhar
08-01-2003, 06:10 PM
Well if my experience as an admin here is of any indication, I can tell you that Rhett doesn't really have the power to change the attitude of other mods... The three head honchos are the only ones really running the game :-/

Havoc Stryphe
08-01-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Sherack Nhar
Well if my experience as an admin here is of any indication, I can tell you that Rhett doesn't really have the power to change the attitude of other mods... The three head honchos are the only ones really running the game :-/

I am well aware of that, but being's he is an admin he could inquire as to why the three head honchos have done nothing, or even press them for some sort of action.

If I were to address them, I would only appear as a lowly, whiny, member who has a "personal agenda". :rolleyes:

:leia: "Help me Boba Rhett! You're my only hope!"

But seriously, Rhett may not have that kind of authority we need, but he can access those who do easier and with much better result than I could ever.

Sherack Nhar
08-01-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe
If I were to address them, I would only appear as a lowly, whiny, member who has a "personal agenda". :rolleyes: Actually... in the head honchos' eyes, everyone else is a lowly whiny person, no matter the rank ;)

pbguy1211
08-01-2003, 06:21 PM
merc and remi seem to have slight attitude problems IMHO... As mods they shouldn't be so abrassive and should be more tolerant of other people and not throw their "power" around.

Havoc Stryphe
08-01-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Clefo
What we need in this thread, is some music or something that proclaims "Justice!"


I give to you for your audio pleasure and justice seeking moods:

Justice will prevail! (http://Jedihub.homestead.com/files/justice.mp3)

Ray Jones
08-01-2003, 07:27 PM
the funny thing about it is as i joined the lucasforums i started posting at the mojo and then mi forum

for me it was fun until the "big habor closedown" ..

most persons stayed away .. but i didnt. i thought i can "keep" some communication and some fun, too ..

:D:D:D

I THOUGHT WRONG ..!

..


uh.. anyway .. it's quite more fun and more 'colorful' speakers around the other forums .. and i can get hurt or even 'killed' by a mod and its far far from banning .. ;)

the problem is still there i know .. but as i know too, some (one?? :) ) mimods are trying to work on it .. but that will not change the attitudes of the others .. and so on. And its sad that they are so ignorant.. i really cant get what they aim at with it..

but .. :rolleye:


*stands in the center of a circle of mods which are beating him in a random bitch type mode with a plank*

:D

swphreak
08-01-2003, 07:41 PM
Well, thankfully, I've never played/watched/whatever the heck Mojo and MI, so basically stayed out of those forums, but I have seen the way they treat nonregulars.

and the one person that stands out to me is Merc. Even in #lucasforums his attitude was assholish rude.

Something should be done.

Tie Guy
08-01-2003, 07:55 PM
Well, i can't say i fully understand the situation, but i do sense a problem here, from both ends.

First of all, i really don't see the problem in RayJones's posts. Other than the occasional misspelling, they seem perfectly legible to me. I've only read a few, but i didn't have to read any of them twice. I can only conclude that some of the members and mods over there have dyslexia, a severe dislike of Germans, an unfounded elitist and/or nativist jingoism, an unnaturally stupid and/or lazy disposition, or some combination of the above that makes them downright harsh and injust to this forummer. (i was joking about some of those, BTW)


Now, on everyone else's end (including mine, i suppose) it's not mandatory that they like every person they meet. Heck, i don't particularly care for Heavyarms (well, i didn't, and for entirely different reasons), and that's never seemed to be a real problem around here. We all have people we don't like, and other people's preference quite frankly isn't any of our business. And just because they seem to be elitist and think they are better than we are does NOT give us a reason to think that we are better than they.

Now i do understand (and agree) that they shouldn't have been so abrasive with him, as he clearly didn't do much to deserve such harse treatment.

The real problem that i see in this (and i think is at the heart of other's arguments) is not that they don't like the guy, or that they are elitists (hey, that's humanity at its not-so-finest), but the fact they are mods and still doing this. No needs to like a guy, or a guy's speech or typing, or his humor, or his disposition, but as mods, they should be fair. An injust mod is like a corrupt cop: sometimes they do their job, but not when you really need them to.

RayJones doesn't deserve to be banned, nor do any of the MI members or mods, but their position in authority should be analyzed. People so blatently partial and injust (which, IMO, in this case, is still to be determined absolutely) don't deserve position of authority and weight in an institution such as this that is so heavily based on free thought and egalitarianism.

lukeiamyourdad
08-01-2003, 08:09 PM
Well we can get a conclusion from this story:

STAY AWAY FROM THOSE FORUMS!

They won't get new members now that this story is out.
People here will even less want to go to those places. He called us all a bunch of idiots(merc). He said that over at the Mix'n Mojo they liked intelligence right?

This points out that the rest of us who started in any Star Wars related forum are therefore called an idiot.

He should be careful we heavily outnumber them.

And we are more ferocious :lightning!

Artoo
08-02-2003, 03:17 AM
......... :eek:


WOW :eek:

I... I've only lurked... and never there... :eek:

Thank you for bringing this to my attention Havoc, I won't be lurking there if that's how they assault their regular posters. :eek:

I'm going to play the isolationist on this one, cause as long as they don't actually set a foot in the Star Wars forums, I don't really see a problem with them being forum nazis moderators as long as they keep the abuse moderating to their own boards and don't try to take their opinions elsewhere. People will learn that that is not the place to be and they will go other places where they will get more respect from their fellow forummers... i.e. JKII, GB, RSN, the list (http://www.lucasforums.com) goes on...

BTW RayJones I have particularly admired your posts and the use of the Angry Beavers in your avatar. You are welcome here anytime. :D

edlib
08-02-2003, 03:51 AM
This has been obvious to me since all the forums merged into the LF network. I remember when we all started venturing into other, unfamiliar forums there was more than one skirmish, and one very memorable, very ugly free-for-all in the Sam & Max boards. ( http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25724 )
Things seemed to cool down a bit after that and settle into an uneasy peace and quiet, mostly because folks seemed to gravitate towards forums based on similar games to the ones they were familiar with.
The "Father Tourque Foundation" thread in the Swamp (a "Star Wars" forum these guys, by thier own logic, should have had no interest in, although I have seen them close threads not to thier liking there) seems to have been the catalyst for the recent rounds of hostilities, although it was bubbling under the surface even before that, I'm sure. Zoom and I poking our nose in just about everywhere it could be poked and saying "Hi Folks!" probably didn't help at all, as it didn't seem to go over too well with a few of the people in question here.

The fact that each camp has different Administrators, and that some of these Admins seem to be operating under different rules and standards is the part that is confusing me right now. This thread: ( http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105042 ) is what really started me to wonder exactly what was going on behind the scenes in Admin-land.

The merging of all the forums on the network wasn't a popular move with many people, and I think we are still feeling aftershocks even now from that event.

STTCT
08-02-2003, 06:35 AM
I don't want to say too much. I agree with you Havoc. I really do. I say **** them. I think that they are not a positive contribution to this forum as a whole. I think that they should just stop making it a goddamn point to ruin people's fun. They can say what they frucken want about intelligence - but let me say this. Its their bad attitudes and general lack of consideration and human decency that show that they must be nothing but worthless pieces of **** outside the internet.

pbguy1211
08-02-2003, 06:41 AM
wow... and to think i was worried about pissing people off by just calling merc a f'n dick! ;)

lukeiamyourdad
08-02-2003, 12:51 PM
pbguy- girls can kick ass to you know!:D

Anyway seing the threads that edlib just showed us, I think they shouldn't have merge all those LucasArts game. They should have kept the StarWars game on one side and the other games on another side. This kind of creates ghettos but at least people have their peace and don't get flamed. Strange how we are more open minded then those guys...

Sherack Nhar
08-02-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Anyway seing the threads that edlib just showed us, I think they shouldn't have merge all those LucasArts game. They should have kept the StarWars game on one side and the other games on another side. This kind of creates ghettos but at least people have their peace and don't get flamed. Strange how we are more open minded then those guys... No. The problem lies not in the merging, but rather in the inability of the mods to prevent rivalities instead of actually encouraging them. Peace can be attained on a large-scale forum...as long as you have competent peace-keepers.

lukeiamyourdad
08-02-2003, 05:43 PM
Even if the mods ''tried'' to prevent the rivalities, they wouldn't be able to. It seems clear that nobody there wants any of us to come in and say hi. If there's a unaminous decision from the people to kick out whoever tries to come in, I don't think the mod will dare go against them.

Sherack Nhar
08-02-2003, 05:53 PM
They are supposed to. This forum isn't a democracy, thankfully :D

lukeiamyourdad
08-03-2003, 04:06 PM
Their forum do not have a lot of members. Going against them could leave them alone to rule over a ghost forum. That's also a problem.

Ray Jones
08-03-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Their forum do not have a lot of members. Going against them could leave them alone to rule over a ghost forum. That's also a problem.

their forums do not have a lot of members.. ANYMORE ..

i read what they had 'done' to wraith8 in sNm forum and .. thats disgusting. he recieved fire after his first post..!!! how could they get .. MODS??

if they will keep on to handle things like this they will moderate a ghostforum soon..!! so it doesnt really is a matter if we go against them or not..


actual example.. they combined 4 threads of a girl called NATTY to one.. because 'she talks to much' (simple said :) ) i mean she talks alot .. but .. eh.. this where totally complete different topics from the last month and now they formed a big 'dear diary' thread of them ..

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=107556


..

darthfergie
08-04-2003, 02:36 AM
Bizzare...

I've always had a humorously positive take on the S&M forums, etc. I mean when they had the GB Invasion I laughed my head off at the crazyness of it all and felt somewhat guilty for closing and deleting the crazy threads...in fact it was a relief we got invaded by nuts instead of the porn posters who had invaded not too long before that.

Well...anyway long story short...I'm suprised, but not too badly because these people ARE off the wall nuts...and yes mod land has been graced with this very same-ish topic...



BTW, if you have problems with Merc, please either take it up with him or pass it along to an admin via Private Message...because no matter if you like it or not, that kind of blasting undermines authority and it's very obvious. If he needs his authority taken away then send messages to the admins and various others instead of starting "KILL THE MOD!" rallies. I know it wasn't intended as flaming...but seriously...it's hitting low.

Ray Jones
08-04-2003, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by darthfergie
BTW, if you have problems with Merc, please either take it up with him or pass it along to an admin via Private Message...because no matter if you like it or not, that kind of blasting undermines authority and it's very obvious.

well.. that maybe correct.. and that's actually what SOME people tried..



=> i think it has no effect to pm if one side is not talking 'proper'.. ??

Mort-Hog
08-04-2003, 01:25 PM
Some of you came up with the right solution.. If you don't like it, don't go there. You don't 'live' in a forum, you don't have a 'right' to be there, and there's no reason why you should expect anything of the mods. They control the forum the way they see fit, and if you don't like it, you should go away. I like all the forums I visit, because I don't bother visiting the ones I don't like. I'm not 'forced' to visit the ones I don't like, so I have no right to be angry because I don't like them. It's like yelling at a shopkeeper because you don't like the taste of the apples he sells.

But anyway, I think I'll take my own advice and go away now!

lukeiamyourdad
08-04-2003, 02:13 PM
Let's stop this, someone close this thread. It has served it's purposed. Now if merc wants to drive people out of his forum by calling fat and unattractive or simply by calling them idiots it's his damn problem. He's gonna be alone there in awhile if he continues. Let's not cheese this out.

Ray Jones
08-04-2003, 02:18 PM
i must give you right mort-hog.. i cant yell at a shopkeeper for what he's selling.

it just seems to be that easy ..

you go to a forum and get flamed like wraith. then stay calm and stand above it all, turn around and leave them.
-> the way to handle the situation!

and then??

just leave them alone and let them do what they want.
-> free and open forums and stuff (democracy)

and tomorrow they are 'serving' your breakfast. or such thing..
-> that's what history is telling us about letting such people go on.


:dozey:

Havoc Stryphe
08-04-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Some of you came up with the right solution.. If you don't like it, don't go there. You don't 'live' in a forum, you don't have a 'right' to be there, and there's no reason why you should expect anything of the mods. They control the forum the way they see fit, and if you don't like it, you should go away. I like all the forums I visit, because I don't bother visiting the ones I don't like. I'm not 'forced' to visit the ones I don't like, so I have no right to be angry because I don't like them. It's like yelling at a shopkeeper because you don't like the taste of the apples he sells.

But anyway, I think I'll take my own advice and go away now!

I understand what you are saying, and I respect your ability to use such neat and educational analogies, but you are missing the whole underlying issue.

It's people, not unlike yourself, who subscribe to such beliefs as yours that take a world engulfed in hatred, war, strife and suffering and somehow manage to make it worse. You are correct, sir, when you say we have no 'right' to be there, and have no 'right' to expect a certain behavior from the Mods of the aforementioned forums. Unfortunately, as human beings, especially in this day and age, you should still make every effort to at least tolerate others who may not share the same Cynical sense of humor, or great taste in analogies.

Lucasforums is a global community, and as such, is comprised of members that hail from all regions of this great world. Everyday, we have the chance to electronically 'rub shoulders' with people from vastly different cultures than our own, and those who may share similar lifestyles but still may live thousands of miles (Kilometers) from we live. We represent the worlds of which we live in. Each of us are an ambassador to these forums, and as such, should make every effort to give benefit of the doubt, second chances and at the very least a hardy welcome to people who are new to your neck of the woods.

How much more so for the 'leaders' of said forums. These individuals set the tone for a forum by the methods by which they enforce policy. They are a greatest single representation of the forum and all it's members. These individuals answer to a higher calling, or at least should. Can MODs have sense of humors? Absolutely! Can MODs employ sarcasm, and wit in their dealings with the members? Sure! I, in no way, am suggesting that MOD's can't have fun, or even play the 'Bad Cop' image, but they should still live by the code they enforce, welcome the new members, inform members of the policies, and in every way attempt to make the forum a desirable place to visit.

Oh, and a point for clarification. I was unaware of this new 'Ownership' policy. I did not think that MOD's owned anything of the forums they moderated. They simply made their 'home' a particular forum and originally displayed enough charisma to be later named MOD by the Admin(s) of said forum. Either that or they knew someone in the higher ups and were unethically named MOD for improper reasons. Either way, it is the Admin(s) (And not even all of them) who 'own' the forum (read: server(s), code, database(s), etc...), and the last time I checked all the games of which Lucasforums' individual forums are based on or themed after or in the likeness of are all intellectual property, or licenses of LucasArts, LucasGames, or LucasFilms. SO the actual content, imagery, likenesses or themes are anything but the MOD's possession. Even the Bulletin Board Software is not the intellectual property of the Admins or MODs. So this concept of "The MOD's have every right to run their forums the way the want" is simply unfounded and grounded in misconception.

The Three 'Head Honchos' of Lucasforums are the only individuals who actually have a 'right' to say or act anyway or do anything they want, because they are the only true owners of Lucasforums. MOD's are just slightly up the food chain from us general members and still have to answer for their actions, however inappropriate they are.

And today I call into question the ability of these MOD's to perform their duties in the tradition and manner of which these forums have been created and maintained. They should have to answer for their lack of patience, and absence of civility.

This is not about who's who, and who's not. Nor is not about not having 'lives', and this being just a 'forum' and to get over it. It's about the interaction of human beings, cultures, and personas from around the world, and the seemingly lax of human compassion, care and civility that is the very plague our world suffers from 'offline'. Why should we sit back and watch the same apathy, hatred, distaste for others, fear of the unknown, disdain, and general lack of acceptance of all things new ruin the relationship of LucasLovers the world over? Why should we watch a beautiful place for the culmination of ideas, the sharing of culture, the exchange of beliefs, and the interaction of our passions be poisoned by the same shortcomings that have pushed us away from our normal lives and into the online world of forums and chats?

This is our sanctuary, our retreat, our world which was governed by the very fantasies that have been cruelly erased from our real lives. We cannot sit idly by and watch as our forums slowly decay from the very disease that took our real world. Today it's MOD's saying they are better than the others and forcing others out of their circles, but what will it be tomorrow. I for one, don't want to find out. I wish to preserve the good spirit which has defined Lucasforums up until now.

This is not a cry for war, it's a merely a wake-up call. We mustn't make excuses and allowances for the absence of genuine human compassion among our members, especially those in a position of authority. Doing so would only be a sin of the gravest nature, and would only bring the world we try so hard to escape crashing into the sanctuary we've created here among the ethereal.

lukeiamyourdad
08-04-2003, 03:20 PM
I understand havoc but now it seems that we can't do anything for that part. Like I said before, those mods will overlook a ghost forum and as such will see their places closed for lack of people. Staying here gives us the chance to survive the onslaught and stay away from those problems. we might lose space somewhere but we gain more here and the mods here are nice.

Let us stay away from the massacre and harbor the refugees...

Sarah
08-04-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe

Just but a little while ago, there was quite an uproar over the whole Point system abuse. Ironically, the same elite moderators I am addressing now, came to the defense of the obvious raping of the point system then, and some were even involved in that heinous plot

Not to steer this conversation off topic, but the point system was a terrible idea. It wasn't fully discussed or agreed upon by the people who run LucasForums, or the 6 principal "owners" or LFN, or whatever we're called.

I don't agree that the abuse that happened was necessary, or even a good idea really, but I do know that they weren't "defending the obvious raping of the point system" because they liked the point system.

I know for a fact that they disliked the point system. It promoted spam, promoted clogging the forums with stupid blinking things and giant sig images, and generally ticked off anyone who wanted to use the forums for actual discussion besides "LOL yeah!!! :band:."

Their methods were a bit insane and probably retarded, but they didn't break any rules. No haxoring was done. And whoa what was the end result? The ineffective annoying point system went away! It cut through all the stupid indecision from LucasForums' bloated supermod populus and finished it. You should be thanking them, really.

Aside from that they are elitest jerks though. :¬:


From, Jake (LucasForums administrator and LFN partner :)) using Sarah's computer.

Havoc Stryphe
08-04-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Sarah
Not to steer this conversation off topic, but the point system was a terrible idea. It wasn't fully discussed and agreed upon by the people who run LucasForums, or the 6 LFN principal "owners" or whatever we are. I don't agree that the abuse that happened was necessary, or even a good idea really, but I do know that they weren't "defending the obvious raping of the point system" because they liked the point system.

I know for a fact that they weren't too fond of the point system. It promoted spam, promoted clogging the forums with stupid blinking things and giant sig images, and generally ticked off anyone who wanted to use the forums for actual discussion besides "LOL yeah!!! :band:."

Their methods were a bit insane and probably retarded, but they didn't break any rules. No haxoring was done. And whoa what was the end result? The ineffective annoying point system went away! It cut through all the stupid indecision from LucasForums' bloated supermod populus and finished it. You should be thanking them, really.

Aside from that they are elitest jerks though. :¬:


From, Jake (LucasForums administrator and LFN partner :)) using Sarah's computer.

Oh yes, I agree. I was, in no way, saddened to see the point system disappear.

If their goal was to gid rid of a flawed system, surely they could have employed tactics less infuriating to the general public? If it is as you said, Jake, than I do thank them for their effort, but do not condone the method in which they applied that effort.

Sadly, this has little bearing on the problem at hand. The fact remains that some MOD's choose to treat members in a substandard fashion and seemingly promote the idea of closed circles or restrictive clubs within Lucasforums and are not approached for their lack of restraint and common courtesy.

Thank you, though, for responding and setting the record straight concerning the earlier conflict.

Mort-Hog
08-04-2003, 04:07 PM
For those of us that, like me, have trouble reading one paragraph and remembering the ones above, I'll reply by paragraph. Or I might split up the paragraphs, I haven't quite decided yet.


I understand what you are saying, and I respect your ability to use such neat and educational analogies, but you are missing the whole underlying issue.

Okay.

It's people, not unlike yourself, who subscribe to such beliefs as yours that take a world engulfed in hatred, war, strife and suffering and somehow manage to make it worse.


I don't quite understand how you came to this conclusion. Yes, I believe in 'improving' the world, but I also believe it is very important that it is the right people that subscribe to those actions. I'll try and think up another 'neat and educational' analogy for you! Okay, the war in Iraq. We'll assume the position that Saddam Hussein had to be gotten rid of for humanitarian reasons, as many people do (which I don't necessarily agree with, but for the sake of the neatness and educationality (?) of this analogy, assume I do). Now, is it up to the random passer-by to 'improve' things and run the country? Or is it up to the people of Iraq to overthrow the Baath government, if they dislike it as much the random passer-by claims they do?
Okay, I've probably confused things lots here, but the point I'm making is that it is those that have influence (the people of Iraq, the moderators, admins) that should change things and decide what is 'right' and what isn't, not random people (other countries, random forumites). You don't HAVE to visit the forums, but the mods do. The only violence that should be used is the violence necessary to overthrow your OWN government..
But anyway, both that paragraph and my reply were pretty irrelevant, so ignore both!


You are correct, sir, when you say we have no 'right' to be there, and have no 'right' to expect a certain behavior from the Mods of the aforementioned forums. Unfortunately, as human beings, especially in this day and age, you should still make every effort to at least tolerate others who may not share the same Cynical sense of humor, or great taste in analogies.

Yes, so start your own forum with that in mind. It is the mods of the forum that have been modded to run the forum, and they run it the way they want. You have no say in how a forum you visit is run. Visiting that forum is entirely a privelidge, given to you by the moderators, and you should respect that and act as the moderators would wish you to when on their forum. If you go into a man's house and he wishes that you take off your shoes when you walk on his carpet, you don't say 'NO!' and then go stomping in across his carpet with your muddy wellingtons. unless you do, in which case you're a bit rude. You can cuss them up personally as much as you like, but they are the mods and they run the forum.


Lucasforums is a global community, and as such, is comprised of members that hail from all regions of this great world. Everyday, we have the chance to electronically 'rub shoulders' with people from vastly different cultures than our own, and those who may share similar lifestyles but still may live thousands of miles (Kilometers) from we live.

Indeed! And that is one reason why I love IRC, and playing multiplayer games, in which I can talk with people from all over the world.

We represent the worlds of which we live in. Each of us are an ambassador to these forums, and as such, should make every effort to give benefit of the doubt, second chances and at the very least a hardy welcome to people who are new to your neck of the woods.

I would be horrified if I was considered an 'ambassador' to where I come from. In no way do I want to 'represent' the country of my birth. I did not choose where I was born, so I take no pride in it, and I do not expect to be judged because of it. And if you've read other posts of mine, you'll know that I think very lowly of those that do... but that's also irrelevent. Those that run the forums define the rules of the forums.

How much more so for the 'leaders' of said forums. These individuals set the tone for a forum by the methods by which they enforce policy. They are a greatest single representation of the forum and all it's members.

I go one step further. The 'leaders' define the tone, and the members either follow that, or go away. I do not think they should be thought to 'represent' the forum in any way.


These individuals answer to a higher calling, or at least should.

I think you're referring to the mod-admin-whatever heirarchy here. Yes, in all forums and all communities (well most..) there will be a certain degree of fascism regarding how it is run. but you mentioned this too later, so I'll reply to that then...


Can MODs have sense of humors? Absolutely! Can MODs employ sarcasm, and wit in their dealings with the members? Sure! I, in no way, am suggesting that MOD's can't have fun, or even play the 'Bad Cop' image, but they should still live by the code they enforce, welcome the new members, inform members of the policies, and in every way attempt to make the forum a desirable place to visit.


Right.



Oh, and a point for clarification. I was unaware of this new 'Ownership' policy. I did not think that MOD's owned anything of the forums they moderated. They simply made their 'home' a particular forum and originally displayed enough charisma to be later named MOD by the Admin(s) of said forum. Either that or they knew someone in the higher ups and were unethically named MOD for improper reasons. Either way, it is the Admin(s) (And not even all of them) who 'own' the forum (read: server(s), code, database(s), etc...), and the last time I checked all the games of which Lucasforums' individual forums are based on or themed after or in the likeness of are all intellectual property, or licenses of LucasArts, LucasGames, or LucasFilms. SO the actual content, imagery, likenesses or themes are anything but the MOD's possession. Even the Bulletin Board Software is not the intellectual property of the Admins or MODs. So this concept of "The MOD's have every right to run their forums the way the want" is simply unfounded and grounded in misconception.

The Three 'Head Honchos' of Lucasforums are the only individuals who actually have a 'right' to say or act anyway or do anything they want, because they are the only true owners of Lucasforums.


I don't think the whole mod < supermod < admin < owner < god heirarchy is really all that important for the sake of this discussion. Yes, the mod does not literally 'own' anything, because they have not 'bought' anything, but they do control it.


MOD's are just slightly up the food chain from us general members and still have to answer for their actions, however inappropriate they are.


The general members are not even on the food chain. The general members have no say in the running of the forum. An admin may 'own' the mods (and I don't mean in a 'pwned' way), and if the admin decides the mod is not running the forum the way he wants, it is up to the admin to remove him. It is not up to the general members. I guess you could add to my previous analogy the landlord. If the landlord tells his rentpayers that they must allow people to walk on their carpets with shoes on, the rentpayers cannot argue with that, can they?



This is not about who's who, and who's not. Nor is not about not having 'lives', and this being just a 'forum' and to get over it. It's about the interaction of human beings, cultures, and personas from around the world, and the seemingly lax of human compassion, care and civility that is the very plague our world suffers from 'offline'. Why should we sit back and watch the same apathy, hatred, distaste for others, fear of the unknown, disdain, and general lack of acceptance of all things new ruin the relationship of LucasLovers the world over? Why should we watch a beautiful place for the culmination of ideas, the sharing of culture, the exchange of beliefs, and the interaction of our passions be poisoned by the same shortcomings that have pushed us away from our normal lives and into the online world of forums and chats?


There is one fundemental difference between the 'online' and the 'offline' world. In the online world, you have no rights. You create a webpage, you create a forum, and you allow people to visit it and you expect people to behave as you tell them. If they do not, you remove their privelidge to visit it. There is no democracy. Those that view your website have no say in what is on your website. They cannot overthrow you and run your website, nor can you with a forum. Yes, some forums may be more authoritarian than others, but there is no democracy. Democracy doesn't work 'online'.


This is our sanctuary, our retreat, our world which was governed by the very fantasies that have been cruelly erased from our real lives. We cannot sit idly by and watch as our forums slowly decay from the very disease that took our real world. Today it's MOD's saying they are better than the others and forcing others out of their circles, but what will it be tomorrow. I for one, don't want to find out. I wish to preserve the good spirit which has defined Lucasforums up until now.


It isn't 'your' anything.



This is not a cry for war, it's a merely a wake-up call. We mustn't make excuses and allowances for the absence of genuine human compassion among our members, especially those in a position of authority. Doing so would only be a sin of the gravest nature, and would only bring the world we try so hard to escape crashing into the sanctuary we've created here among the ethereal.


Surely you are just wishing to impose your will on everyone else? I do not believe in 'sin', but if you wish to visit a forum that is how you want it to be, you start your own forum.

Or you can go away.

Sarah
08-04-2003, 04:26 PM
I agree that ideally they should have used some other method to rid the earth of the point system, but there was a lot of anti-point sentiment going on behind the scenes with nobody willing to act, worried that they'd offend posters who liked the point system or something? (but as we know, the only people who really really liked the point system were the people who liked being rewarded for spamming and begging). What can you do really? :)

Anyway! Let us get back on topic.


As for the "treatment in a substandard fashion " and "closed circle" business, I disagree. Of course, I really haven't been paying attention, but hell this is LucasForums, so that fact is hardly relevant.

It seems like RayJones' treatment might have become a little personal towards the end, but in my opinion he had it coming. His comprehension of english or whatever is not an issue. That's not why anything was asked of him. He was a regular spammer, with occasional lapses into normal-land, yes, but constantly spamming. A decent example (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106066).

As Gabez said, "I know this is an off-topic forum, but that just means that you can post about stuff not related to Monkey Island, not that you can spam all you like." That doesn't sound like Ray's being treated in a substandard fashion. It sounds like someone laying down very very standard forum rules.

I'm not saying anything for sure since I'm ignorant, and RayJones probably got a bit of crap for it afterward, but my guess is that he got said crap because instead of deciding to behave rationally, he went even crazier after receiving warnings from moderators. It's hardly fair to be offended and lash out if a mod replies to your post or sends you a PM asking you to cut back on the spam. Even if you're annoyed, it seems like the last choice of action would be to rant about it. Again, I don't entirely know what happened between anyone because I secretly care about nobody but myself but it looks to me like everyone is just looking for an excuse to jump at everyone elses throat.

There has been a lot of animosity (sp?) between the "Star Wars" and "Adventure/Mixnmojo" communities for a long time, especially amongst the moderation staff. This is just one incident and the only reason we heard about it is because it got personal. The fact that it got personal means to me that it should be about those specific people (whoever they are?), and not about this forum versus that forum or this forum versus its own users. That is ridiculous.

If we all cared enough, and we had enough irrational posters who took it personally when it was pointed out that they were spamming, I'm sure fingers could be pointed in the direction of pretty much any forum on the server.


And finally, I don't know how this thread got started as a discussion about how the "MI and Mix-n-Mojo boards are blatantly insulting the members of 'Star Wars' forums." Where do the Star Wars forums fit into this, really? RayJones was a MI Harbor forum regular, at least to a point, and he was warned by MI forum moderators.

Was "MI vs Star Wars" dragged into the openings of this thread just to fuel the fire and get everyone a little more riled up? To quote myself from earlier:There has been a lot of animosity (sp?) between the "Star Wars" and "Adventure/Mixnmojo" communities for a long time, especially amongst the moderation staff. [This] should be about those specific people (whoever they are?), and not about this forum versus that forum or this forum versus its own users. That is ridiculous.

Guess I'm done. Thanks for reading.


- Jake, using Sarah's computer.

Havoc Stryphe
08-04-2003, 05:46 PM
First of all, Mort-Hog, let me say that I, in no way, was trying to insult you or flame you. Secondly, I apologize for stating the "your ability to use such neat and educational analogies" part. It was a bit rash of me and had an underlying tone of sarcasm. I was just a bit taken aback by your rather short and flippant solution, but that does not excuse my behavior. I'm sorry.

You seem to be a very intelligent fellow, but perhaps a bit too detached to seem to grasp the point of which I'm making, but then again, perhaps I am just an idealistic old fool who subscribes to such an ancient school of thought that I'm just a dying breed who's words only serve to confuse...

I withdrawl my inquiry, and withdrawl my observation. Those who have stood accused have done nothing wrong. It is merely my own foolery, that I thought we should operate in a much more civilized manner, but alas, I was mistaken. My observations are simply that, my own, and I must learn to keep them that way for risk of upsetting the apple cart.

The world has seemed to have moved on, and I have been left in it's cold, and heartless wake. Gone are the ways of chivalry. Human decency is nothing more than an elaborate lie to help one achieve some underlying selfish task while minimizing the risk of looking decietful. They are no good deeds, only oppurtunities to improve one's own standing. The means by which we attain our goals are unimportant, just as long as we reach our goals. Compassion is dead, victem of the hollow existence we now live. It is easier to just accept it with indignation and become a cynic than to try to change it and become an annoyance.

Sadly, there is seemingly but a few true constants among us, one is death, from which there is no escape.

another, you can never trust anyone, not even ourselves.

And ironically, Ignorance is bliss...

Oh, sweet ignorance, would not that you were here, so that I may once again wear a smile upon my weary face. I could once again look into the mirror without contempt for the reflection therein...



Please forgive the ramblings of a misguided fool...

Ray Jones
08-04-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Sarah

It seems like RayJones' treatment might have become a little personal towards the end, but in my opinion he had it coming. His comprehension of english or whatever is not an issue. That's not why anything was asked of him. He was a regular spammer, with occasional lapses into normal-land, yes, but constantly spamming. A decent example (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106066).

As Gabez said, "I know this is an off-topic forum, but that just means that you can post about stuff not related to Monkey Island, not that you can spam all you like." That doesn't sound like Ray's being treated in a substandard fashion. It sounds like someone laying down very very standard forum rules.

- Jake, using Sarah's computer.

hello..

yeah it seems right that your example (of my posts) looks a bit spammy ..

hmmm .. but the story is long and this shows how things started to get worse. the fact is i tried to tell carl shutt something.. but he didnt replied .. rather gabez and mercatfat as you can see.. and i tried to explain myself and followed gabez advice to pm him. (i could message the pms with them but i wont.) i tried to explain myself and the next step was another pm of merc and gabez and those where even nicer. ..it seems they not even tried to understand what i say. at least them could have said: it's our job to tell that to carl shutt..

hmm.. ok. i could have said nothing and then this all would have never happened.. thats what i think.
but it is not just the treatment of a slight crazy ray jones. I am least important in this case.
the point is as havoc said, another. (i wont repeat it here, i think it's clear what he said.)


so thank you for replying and i think one thing we can do is LEARN from it.

Mort-Hog
08-04-2003, 06:02 PM
Please forgive the ramblings of a misguided fool...


Okay.

lukeiamyourdad
08-04-2003, 06:29 PM
Now can someone please close this thread so everything can return to the way it was before?

Havoc Stryphe
08-04-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Now can someone please close this thread so everything can return to the way it was before?

No offense, but do you mean going back to ignoring the Giant Pink Elephant in the room?

Knowing what we know now, can we honestly go back to the way it was before?

We can only hope to consciously ignore that which we already know and turn a blind eye once again to that which goes on below our very noses, but I suppose that was the way it was before, huh?










What Giant Pink Elephant?

Sherack Nhar
08-04-2003, 06:52 PM
Havoc, I know that you probably really enjoy your writing style, but it's seriously starting to give me a headache!! Can you tone down the "artsy litterature writing style" a bit? :D I don't wanna sound stupid, but we don't all speak english as good as you here x_X

lukeiamyourdad
08-04-2003, 06:53 PM
I know we shouldn't ignore this problem. I too would like to try and go up againt them and find a way to solve all of this.

But sometimes it's by letting everything go that we can achieve something.

Those forums are dying and all those mods are doing is driving them to an even faster death. This isn't about RayJones anymore. Now I feel bad for taht girl Natty which mercatfat called fat and unnattractive(not litterally but the way he barged in there and everything he said.well that's what dirves people to suicide and I'm not joking here).
We can't achieve anything since we have no autority on anything. It's not like we lead an army ready to wreck justice over there. And the admins seems to ignore the actions of those mods. What can we do? Tell me seriously?

On this case I have to agree with Mort-Hog for there is no actual law here that's decided by the people, no democracy within the forum. It's controlled primarily by the admins and mods. If either of them wants to bash on everyone, they can and probably will as the recent events showed us without almost any interference.

Havoc Stryphe
08-04-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Sherack Nhar
Havoc, I know that you probably really enjoy your writing style, but it's seriously starting to give me a headache!! Can you tone down the "artsy litterature writing style" a bit? :D I don't wanna sound stupid, but we don't all speak english as good as you here x_X

Sorry, Sher. I'll try to lighten up some. It tends to happen when I'm feeling particularly pensive. Hopefully it clears up soon. A man can only take to so much intense thought ;)

Mort-Hog
08-04-2003, 08:19 PM
On this case I have to agree with Mort-Hog for there is no actual law here that's decided by the people, no democracy within the forum. It's controlled primarily by the admins and mods. If either of them wants to bash on everyone, they can and probably will as the recent events showed us without almost any interference.

Yes, the point I was making is that there is nothing wrong with that. When you make a toy, you own that toy and you expect to be able to play with it however you like, even if other people wouldn't play with it the same way as you do. It is a key principle of capitalism.


(yes, I realise that comparing the forum to a toy is an unfortunate analogy, and I don't mean that mods and admins are cruel little children that treat their forums as their little playthings, it just serves as a useful analogy for ownership. the house one is better.)

Paragon_Leon
08-04-2003, 09:17 PM
lukeiamyourdad, these forums aren't dying ... they are shooked up, beaten about, loved and loathed.
Yes, there will be those that will uphold a chivalrous standard and no, not everyone will. The problem usually is that those not willing to conform to ethical behavior are the most vocal of the bunch, attracting the most attention in the process. Now i'm aware of things being a bit farther from that point, but i certainly wouldn't say these boards are dying. After all, isn't this one of the most eloquent, passionate and engaging threads in a very long time ?
;)

darthfergie
08-04-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Those forums are dying and all those mods are doing is driving them to an even faster death.

I wouldn't say dieing...no...not at all. What with the new S&M (SAM AND MAX) game and the new Full Throttle game I figure they'll get a full newbie invasion sometime soon and those oldbies will have to crack...either that or go nuts...if they havn't already...

STTCT
08-05-2003, 05:19 AM
S&M game??? Maybe I read that wrong....

I'm going to spare the novel and get straight to the points.

The MODs from those forums are just plain rude and mean. They have no regard as far as human decency goes. Obviously they feel that they are above

"very, very standard forum rules"

I for one am sick of the blatent flaming these mods feel so compelled to impress upon every single member of the forums that are not in their "clik".

Go ahead and write down a bunch of crap justifying why these MODS should be allowed to treat people like sh!t but when you get down to it. They should be allowed to treat people like that in their forums but when they come to ours and they start flaming and outright being trolls they should be banned immediatly from ever visiting that forum again.

As far as Ray Goes. Leave him the hell alone.

C Shutt
08-05-2003, 05:49 AM
I don't know where you get the idea that our forums are "dying". About a month ago, The Harbour was the worst forum on LucasForums. Its content consisted almost entirely of meaningless crap from the likes of Natty, and this was driving away new posters. Since the MI mods started cracking down, the Harbour has become almost readable, and the on-topic forum is the liveliest its been in a long time.

STTCT
08-05-2003, 05:53 AM
I don't think that it died because of Natty's posts, it died during that time of course. But people didn't start going there until it started getting all of the attention. A lot of people were linked there by threads etc. I think that's how it came back to life. People went there and stayed.

I agree with Shutt. The forums are not dying and I really do agree with some that Natty should get a blog and link that to her sig.

Ray Jones
08-05-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Yes, the point I was making is that there is nothing wrong with that. When you make a toy, you own that toy and you expect to be able to play with it however you like, even if other people wouldn't play with it the same way as you do. It is a key principle of capitalism.


(yes, I realise that comparing the forum to a toy is an unfortunate analogy, and I don't mean that mods and admins are cruel little children that treat their forums as their little playthings, it just serves as a useful analogy for ownership. the house one is better.)

if you make/ own a weapon and you can use the weapon however you like .. ? .. this may work particially in PRIVACY .. but in public?

and there is nothing wrong with that???

i think in the nowadays 'world' there are a lot of things people doing in their 'privacy' which are 'wrong'.
but thanks democracy we have the right to bother people without getting bothered ourselfes.

what i want to say is:
OK, it's their forum, they moderate it, they run it. therefore i cannot really tell them WHAT they have to do. but for the matter this is a public forum they have to accept critics, positive and negative.

and it IS wrong how they handle some things.
it IS wrong from the standpoint of a openminded human being.
it IS far from 'normal' standard of communication.
it IS complete *noingnoing*

But YES they have the right to do it the way they do.
(i think nothing is said here against doing a mod-jobs duties)

:dozey:

[edit]

Carl: Natty really talks alot. and a blog would be perhabs some good idea. And RayJones can be annoing sometimes (most time :):) <- that's what i mean... ) ..
But did you (or some others) ever think/thought of telling something the NICE way?
Is that the way you want to be treaten somewhere else?
Is that the way you treat you children?

Is that a way we should treat each other?

Communication should be one of our big advances.. or not?

Jed
08-05-2003, 06:23 AM
I'm very impressed, my friends. With a little background in mind, I'd like to tell you all that I've spent the time to read every post in this thread, examine the examples, and think before blurting anything out that I will regret. All I ask is that my opinion, whether you agree or not, is respected.

I, as an individual, can express my opinion on a forum. Mort-Hog is entirely right, unfortunately. My opinion can be regarded with the utmost importance, and can be debated lightly, or it can be maimed, insulted, and taken so far out of context that it would make me feel, and appear to the general public, like an imbicile. It's all a matter of the administration of the forum.

Now, some of you may be aware that I am part of another forum, and I hold a staff position there. It will remain unmentioned for the remainder of this post. I speak from experience when I say that it's extremely simple to criticize. LucasForums has done a great deal for me, by providing an outlet for my emotions, and I've had an incredible experience here. There have been some rough spots, but those are inevitable. I've grown to know many, many people, and I feel as if I have gained a family online. Yes, you guys mean a great deal to me. For how much fire LF has been under, it has done a great job. Forum administration is a hard task - external conflicts add to the stress of internal conflicts. The conflicts between staffers, the fights you never see. Time is the ultimate jury; keep this in mind. But for now...I commend LucasForums, all of its staffers, and the general public.

Again - No forum is a democracy. The ultimate answer gets put forth through the administration. Now, the administration has choices: They can either please the public, or do whatever they damn well wish. Either way, they'll get users coming back. And I'll reinforce this fact: when you have to make that choice, no matter how hard you try, you inevitably will choose to do whatever you damn well please. The staff of LF, with conflicts internally and externally, will do what they please. Whether it is fair or not - it's the final say. This case is a perfect example - the staffers associated with the MI area have taken it upon themselves to do what they please. Whether or not their conduct is appropriate is irrelevant - the LucasForums administration will ultimately decide how appropriate they feel the staff should act. There is not a single thing you can do about it. Petitioning the system? That's ludicrious. You'll be causing more external conflict - conflict that will ultimately hinder your fate.

The above is the simple, clean cut reality.

I abide by reality. My opinion, however, differs on many situations. I, for one, do not understand why our staffers feel the need to host pictures blatantly showing the disregard, as well as inappropriate disrespect, for their own kin, as shown here. (http://www.thrik.dodnetwork.com/bleh/swm.jpg) This, in my opinion, is disgraceful. But remember that little bit about reality? Does my opinion matter? No. This is not a democracy. What will I do about it?

I'll sit back, laugh a bit at myself, and others, and enjoy the ride. That is what LucasForums is here to do; give everyone a sense of relaxation, a bit of fun, and a bit of friendship. Give it a try, folks. ;)

Redwing
08-05-2003, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by STTCT
S&M game??? Maybe I read that wrong....

S&M = Sam and Max. ;)


Honestly this has more been about supermods/mods from one "camp" clashing with other supermods/mods from another "camp" than anything else. The insults and bad attitudes have just happened to affect alot of others.

The much-vaunted "crack-down" on the Harbor just makes me roll my eyes. Anyone can go look in the MI Feedback Center and see two things in separate threads...

1) The Harbor mods/supermods defend a thread about porn stars (posted by an old Harbor member). This is heavily spiced with mocking comments about the "Star Wars mods" who want to close it.

Moderation Feedback (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88227)

2) The Harbor mods/supermods close a joke thread about why there are no monkeys in North America (posted by Zoom Rabbit, of "Star Wars forums"). When everyone pointed out (truthfully) that it was superior to pretty much everything else in the Harbor (I mean hey, at least it was funny!) the mods/supermods decided to do their "crackdown".

Seeking to appeal a closure (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104570)


It left alot of people scratching their heads.


(...) There is not a single thing you can do about it. Petitioning the system? That's ludicrious. You'll be causing more external conflict - conflict that will ultimately hinder your fate. (...)


The simple truth is, the more people whine about something, the more likely it is to get noticed. Stupid antics help, too. Didn't you notice how the points system went away?

STTCT
08-05-2003, 06:48 AM
My Glow petion helped? It did not hinder the us. In fact it was made so that we could keep it and for those who did not like to see the glow they could turn it off.

Jed
08-05-2003, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Redwing
The simple truth is, the more people whine about something, the more likely it is to get noticed. Stupid antics help, too. Didn't you notice how the points system went away?

The stupid antics were performed mostly, but certainly not entirely, by LucasForum's very own staffers. ;)

Ray Jones
08-05-2003, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Jedi220
Does my opinion matter? No. This is not a democracy. What will I do about it?


how much does one opinion matter in a democracy?


I'll sit back, laugh a bit at myself, and others, and enjoy the ride. That is what LucasForums is here to do; give everyone a sense of relaxation, a bit of fun, and a bit of friendship. Give it a try, folks. ;)

indeed, indeed.

STTCT
08-05-2003, 06:54 AM
Well that's what we've been saying. How can you sit back when you have to worry about someone coming along and flaming you and THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE STAFF.

it is absurd.

Jed
08-05-2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by STTCT
Well that's what we've been saying. How can you sit back when you have to worry about someone coming along and flaming you and THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE STAFF.

it is absurd.

Absurd, yes. But if it bothers you enough, you'll finally get sick of it. And you'll consider your options...chances are you'll petition first, but you'll realize it won't get far.

Originally posted by RayJones
how much does one opinion matter in a democracy?

If you can inspire enough people to start thinking instead of being force-fed...one's opinion means a great deal.

Redwing
08-05-2003, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Jedi220
The stupid antics were performed mostly, but certainly not entirely, by LucasForum's very own staffers. ;)

LucasForum's very own staffers, for the most part, started this entire conflict. My point stands. ;)

Jed
08-05-2003, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by Redwing
LucasForum's very own staffers, for the most part, started this entire conflict. My point stands. ;)

I'm just pointing it out, not proving you wrong :p :D

STTCT
08-05-2003, 07:05 AM
Why do you think that it wouldn't go far

Jed
08-05-2003, 07:08 AM
Well, remember when I was talking about how the staff ultimately decides to do what they choose, and how they have every right too?

Well, petitioning a hack in the forum software is one thing - petitioning people is an entirely different ball game. It's a risky one, too.

STTCT
08-05-2003, 07:11 AM
yes it is a sticky situation if you want to know what i'm thinking about this

I think that they hate being apart of "Star wars" forums. So just like the point system they are going to abuse it till they finnaly get their way. The only problem is that they are not abusing points anymore, they are abusing real people.

C Shutt
08-05-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Redwing
The much-vaunted "crack-down" on the Harbor just makes me roll my eyes. Anyone can go look in the MI Feedback Center and see two things in separate threads...

1) The Harbor mods/supermods defend a thread about porn stars (posted by an old Harbor member). This is heavily spiced with mocking comments about the "Star Wars mods" who want to close it.

This situation wasn't really about defending that thread. It was a stupid thread, and under the new MI moderation standards, it would probably have been closed due to its utter inanity. But that was a call for the MI mods to make. It wasn't obi-wan13's place to just swoop in and close it, just because he found it objectionable.

Originally posted by Redwing
2) The Harbor mods/supermods close a joke thread about why there are no monkeys in North America (posted by Zoom Rabbit, of "Star Wars forums"). When everyone pointed out (truthfully) that it was superior to pretty much everything else in the Harbor (I mean hey, at least it was funny!) the mods/supermods decided to do their "crackdown".

In my opinion, it was a mistake to close that thread. But since the thread was reopened two days later, I don't see what the outstanding issue is.

Jed
08-05-2003, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by STTCT
yes it is a sticky situation if you want to know what i'm thinking about this

I think that they hate being apart of "Star wars" forums. So just like the point system they are going to abuse it till they finnaly get their way. The only problem is that they are not abusing points anymore, they are abusing real people.

You're quite right. ;)

But coming from the opposite point of view (don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting it, just stating it), who are we to correct the people who are supposed to keep us in line?

It seems as though forums in general are in desperate need of a "The people reserve the right to remove or repair their government" clause. However...it's not even remotely applicable, therefore useless.

STTCT
08-05-2003, 07:26 AM
How is calling someone names keeping us in line?

Its abuse and it should not be ignored simply because nobody has the balls to call attention to it.

It is NOT setting a very good example for the new posters to see mod's calling other's names or mocking them just for pure spite.

Jed
08-05-2003, 07:28 AM
It wasn't obi-wan13's place to just swoop in and close it, just because he found it objectionable.

Hold up here, Shutt. You mean to tell me that it's not a Super Mod's job to close a thread he deems inappropriate by forum rules, despite the fact that he is a super moderator?

See, l understand now that you're right by technicality - LucasForums lacks a generic, global set of rules, making the job of a super moderator extremely difficult.

Under that assumption though, you could say it was inappropriate for mercatfat to close an unnamed game thread, seeing as though it was objectionable to his standards, but could be part of the Swamp's nature, because of one of these ritualistic sterotypes.

But should I dare propose that LF forums be united as one? Under one set of rules? To actually be kind to each other, without stereotype?

*gasp*

STTCT
08-05-2003, 07:30 AM
You know it is very confusing that each individual forum has its own interpretation of SPAM. It is very hard for other's to come post in that area if there is not a standard guideline for all the forums to adhere to.

Ray Jones
08-05-2003, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Jedi220
who are we to correct the people who are supposed to keep us in line?

;)

we are humans.
we are involved. (who are they calling someone an idiot?)
the actual date is august, 5th in the year 2003!!

that should be enough reason for us to step up and ask:

is this the way we should treat each other?


:rolleyes:

C Shutt
08-05-2003, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Jedi220
Hold up here, Shutt. You mean to tell me that it's not a Super Mod's job to close a thread he deems inappropriate by forum rules, despite the fact that he is a super moderator?

Exactly. The Harbour is not his forum, and it's not his place to decide what is appropriate there. That's what the MI forums' designated mods are for.

Originally posted by Jedi220
But should I dare propose that LF forums be united as one? Under one set of rules? To actually be kind to each other, without stereotype?

*gasp*

We've been over this before, and we have no interest in running our forums by an over-reaching set of global rules. Our autonomy is very important to us.

Ray Jones
08-05-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Carl Shutt
We've been over this before, and we have no interest in running our forums by an over-reaching set of global rules. Our autonomy is very important to us.

i think we are living on one planet.
compare it to ONE big forum. we are all sitting in one boat!!!

it makes no sense to stay complete autonome. this way you'll end up standing alone when it's not good to stand alone.

individualism - sure.
global rules - sure, for a basic guideline!

BEING NICE -- first premise.

STTCT
08-05-2003, 07:54 AM
It's nice of you to quote Havoc in your forum Carl.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1262373#post1262373

Jed
08-05-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Carl Shutt
Exactly. The Harbour is not his forum, and it's not his place to decide what is appropriate there. That's what the MI forums' designated mods are for.

---------

We've been over this before, and we have no interest in running our forums by an over-reaching set of global rules. Our autonomy is very important to us.

I'll cede my point, only to create a new point. What's the use of a super moderator? If you want individuality, someone with global moderating powers seems kind of pointless and troublesome.

Not trying to debate here, I seriously would like someone to explain it to me. That's all ;)

Redwing
08-05-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Carl Shutt
This situation wasn't really about defending that thread. It was a stupid thread, and under the new MI moderation standards, it would probably have been closed due to its utter inanity. But that was a call for the MI mods to make. It wasn't obi-wan13's place to just swoop in and close it, just because he found it objectionable.



In my opinion, it was a mistake to close that thread. But since the thread was reopened two days later, I don't see what the outstanding issue is.


The issue is not whether the threads should have been closed. I agree with what you said (especially having seen the aftermath) but it seemed very much to me like the only reason the one thread was closed and the other not was that Zoom Rabbit was from the enemy the Star Wars forums. (I'm not sure at all if the thread closer intended it that way, but the comments that followed helped suggest it further.)

STTCT: Honestly, Havoc is a very quotable person. And that was a very nice quote. ;)

C Shutt
08-05-2003, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Redwing
The issue is not whether the threads should have been closed. I agree with what you said (especially having seen the aftermath) but it seemed very much to me like the only reason the one thread was closed and the other not was that Zoom Rabbit was from the enemy the Star Wars forums.


I don't see much evidence to support this. Neil was a new addition to the moderation staff at the time, and I think he was just a little over-zealous in this instance.

STTCT
08-05-2003, 08:07 AM
There is a reason I'm sure of why supermods can close topics in any forum.

Redwing
08-05-2003, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Carl Shutt
I don't see much evidence to support this. Neil was a new addition to the moderation staff at the time, and I think he was just a little over-zealous in this instance.

I agree. I edited my post to clarify.

Ray Jones
08-05-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by Carl Shutt
Neil was a new addition to the moderation staff at the time, and I think he was just a little over-zealous in this instance.

oh. couldshould have been said one month ago.

btw. neil's doing 'fine'.

edlib
08-05-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Carl Shutt
Exactly. The Harbour is not his forum, and it's not his place to decide what is appropriate there. That's what the MI forums' designated mods are for.
We've been over this before, and we have no interest in running our forums by an over-reaching set of global rules. Our autonomy is very important to us.
But I have seen Mercatfat close threads in the Swamp.
Examples:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1250517#post1250517
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1248440#post1248440

STTCT
08-05-2003, 08:42 AM
the plot thickens.

Yes I would be very interested in knowing why it is viewed as a heinous crime when a Star Wars Super Mod goes outside of his "territory" and closes a thread. However, a Super Mod from another outside forum is perfectly allowed to go and close Star Wars threads?

I don't think so.

Redwing
08-05-2003, 08:50 AM
Being as vague as I can be, because it went on in private forums, merc was fully backed in closing both those threads, edlib. :)

However I should also mention in defense of the actions of the "Star Wars mods" that they cannot view the MI/Mojo/etc private forums - if they even exist. I feel I can mention this because it was made a mocking point in one of the threads I posted earlier. ;)

C Shutt
08-05-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by STTCT
the plot thickens.

Yes I would be very interested in knowing why it is viewed as a heinous crime when a Star Wars Super Mod goes outside of his "territory" and closes a thread. However, a Super Mod from another outside forum is perfectly allowed to go and close Star Wars threads?

I never said that. If the Swamp mods don't agree with these threads being closed, then of course they should reopen them.

And "heinous crime"? Nice hyperbole. When obi-wan13 closed that thread, Benny reopened it. That's all. All the complaints over this came from the Star Wars mods, who were outraged that we were "undermining their authority" and "attracting perverts" and other such nonsense.

edlib
08-05-2003, 09:32 AM
After re-reading through this thread I felt it was nessisary to clarify my positions on this subject a bit further.

Some points, in no particular order:

I still believe that the underlying root cause of a lot of these misunderstandings is the basic tension between the two halves of the Lucas Games collective.
I don't believe that a little competition between the camps can't be perfectly healthy, as long as it remains clear to everyone involved that it's still a friendly competition.
I believe that this line has gotten a bit blurred as of late.
It's obvious that some people aren't seeing this as a friendly thing, otherwise threads like this wouldn't keep cropping up over and over again on the same issues.

I believe moderators absolutely have the right, and indeed the duty, to close threads in thier own forums and to disipline users they feel are out of line in any way, but should be prepared to explain themselves clearly and without any attitude or sarcasm when they do. They should drop out of character anytime there is official business to do, so that the majority of misunderstandings like these can be avoided.
It's important that it should never, ever appear personal.
Super-mods should have the right to moderate anywhere they see fit, but should consult with the local mods first so that they don't have to step in in the first place. Again, it should be made clear why that individual felt action had to be taken.
Admins should be able to do whatever they want, wherever they want, anywhere on the network if they feel action is needed, without worrying about local mods or super mods. They should try to work through the forum's people first, but if action is warranted, they shouldn't need to defer.

As it's been said here before: These forums AREN'T really a democracy... however, offend too many users and it won't be much of anything, since we are all free to take our business elsewhere. The population's wishes should be listened to and respected to a large degree,.. within reason. The regular forum users here are the lifeblood of the network.

STTCT
08-05-2003, 10:02 AM
Carl I wasn't making that deduction from your posts at all. I know you didn't say that. I did. Basically from my interpretation of what happened in those threads.

I do think it is funny though that they thought you guys were bringing perverts into MI forums! Silly.

Anyways. I just made that observation from what edlib posted. Since I'm not a mod I do not have that inside information that mercat had permission to close those threads. Which is fine by me because I rarely play the silly games anyways. I think it is perfectly okay for Supermods to close other threads outside there forum homes. I think it is very neccesary sometimes.

Maybe there is a problem about SW forum mods not being able to go to a private forum with you guys to discuss the closure of such threads and then it would seem more like a unanmous (i can't spell) desicion supported by MI moderators.

But this is an old topic and we probably shouldn't rehash since it is obvious I have no idea what I'm talking about because it apparently went on "behind the scenes".

Basically what I have been upset about lately is the insults thrown out at members that I feel was abusive and uncalled for. I know you guys don't like us and find it fun to make fun of us, but we dont' go into your forums trashing you guys.

Paragon_Leon
08-05-2003, 10:52 PM
Basically what I have been upset about lately is the insults thrown out at members that I feel was abusive and uncalled for. I know you guys don't like us and find it fun to make fun of us, but we dont' go into your forums trashing you guys.

STTCT, i like each and every one of you. (What was that, Viper ? No, you stay away.. ) :D
Aren't you...pushing the boundaries of generalisation a bit when you presume that mods and supermods think higher of themselves compared to other forummers and therefor bash, insult and generally treat them like slime ?

I'm here to keep an eye on things, yes. And even though it may not be a 24/7 thing for me, i find it an enjoyable experience. Not because i can close threads and stuff (oh yes, we sure have had those discussions before !), but simply because it allows you to interact with a diverse set of characters that really develop personae over time. And that to me is what the fun in forums is all about.

Can i get an amen on that ?

Clefo
08-06-2003, 12:05 AM
*Turns into a Baptist Precher*


AMEN MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS! PARAAAAISE THE LORD!

STTCT
08-06-2003, 04:23 AM
Oh, maybe I was tired and what I said came out wrong. I didn't mean to generalize supermods and mods in general. I like the geebee mods very much etc. I'm very happy with them. If I seem kinda vague it is only because I don't want to be singling any one mod out. That is all.

I guess we will just all have to learn to get along.

Jake
08-06-2003, 03:58 PM
I think the real solution to this problem is to kill the supermod class in its entirety, and just giving select people (ie the "owners" of each forum) per-forum moderator and administration ability instead of a global moderating power allowing them to muck in other peoples busines, as well as killing off most of the "administrator" class, leaving the Admin class for only a few higherups in LFN, and the people who do actual maintenance on LucasForums' backend.


That way if conflict like this arises again mods can just take it an Administrator, or discuss it in the private global moderator forum, instead of getting into petty fights that involve locking each others threads.

Anyway, at this point the thread's gone very off topic. It's no longer about RayJones but is instead about larger issues involving animosity between the two "halves" of the LFN community and the poor chain of command and admin setup we have going here at LucasForums.

I'm going to close this thread as it's more than served its purpose, and propose that if anyone is interested in discussing changes to the moderation layout or discussing the duties or necessity of Supermods, they take it to the LucasForums feedback and discussion area (http://lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=217) where it actually belongs. :)