PDA

View Full Version : US attacking this and that...


Delphi's Clone
08-19-2003, 10:22 PM
Honestly i think US shouldnt worry to much and should pull all it's troops back home, put em on the borders, and never get into any wars unless attacked. And if attacked just screw over the country not try and go and rebuild it. USA should be totally conservative, and should not give money aid pakages to countrys all over the world, either way countrys screw us over all the time so why do they deserve our money. Also why should USA be the police of the world? We should just make USA really nice with all the saved money and very protected, by putting all our troops on our borders. The world dosnt need us, and honeslty survival of the fittest, we USA have no right to break the natural process.

Zygomaticus
08-19-2003, 10:36 PM
The natural process is not survival of the fittest - it's what has become of us. It wouldn't be the 'natural' process, if not. It is in human nature.

Personally, I've always looked at it another way. I don't wish to engage in a debate here and I'll try my best to abstain from replying here again, but as the most powerful country in the world, I feel the USA should help other nations. Forms of communication have made this world smaller. We would be a bunch of ignorant, irresponsible old fools if each country 'stuck to its own borders.'

Clefo
08-20-2003, 12:09 AM
Ain't gonna happen, the USA has ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been one of intervention, we will always have troops somewhere.

Although, we SHOULD pull out of: Saudi Arabia (Which I hear is happening), Germany, and Japan.

swphreak
08-20-2003, 01:16 AM
I feel somewhat the same way as Delphi. We're always helping countries, yet they hate us...

but we should help other countries because it's right. Also, who's going to look out for the smaller countries if we didn't police the world?

darthfergie
08-20-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Clefo
and Japan.

Ah, but Japan's constitution (or whatever they call their basis of government) strictly prohibits a Japanese military ever again. So pretty much we are their protector for all of the forseeable future.

Darth Homer
08-20-2003, 03:33 AM
The main problem with the U.S. is that we do go out and try to do too much, IMO. The problem is, if we go and do anything, there will be people that hate us because we are "Imperialistic"; but if we stop all together, people will hate us because we won't help anyone, they may label us things as "Isolationists". The real problem is how to do a careful balancing act of not doing too much and also doing enough. I believe we should withdraw most of our troops from Iraq, but not all and keep a careful eye on that region. We should also, try to turn over peace-keeping duties to other countries or, even better, the UN.

We also have to remember that the world is becoming more and more united, there is the European Union already in existence and with the help of Superpowers (US, Britain, China, Russia, etc), we can bring up the standard of living throughout the world. We cannot rest on our laurels and let everyone else pass us by. Survival of the fittest pertains to evolution, and those who do not adapt, die. We must be active in the world, but stop trying to put ourselves or our nations before what is best for everyone.

pbguy1211
08-20-2003, 03:40 AM
Maybe the rest of you don't realize how well we have it here. A lot of these other countries are piss poor and there'd be complete chaos if we weren't there.

Besides, if we weren't in a lot of other places all hell would break loose and they'd be asking for help anyway.

Though I do think we need to kill Saddam then get the f out of Iraq double-fast. George has no idea what's going on in the middle east or how to handle it. They're going to turn it into a parking lot all on their own soon enough. The sad thing is the people over there have been so brainwashed for so long that they don't know what's really going on.

Delphi's Clone
08-20-2003, 04:46 AM
But see our security is worth more than others countrys piss poorness... i dont think it's worth 1 of our men to help save a country just so they can hate us even more... I think we should stop all illegal immigration and put our troops on the border and defend america... only america.... i dont see other superpowers helpin us...

pbguy1211
08-20-2003, 04:48 AM
if we kept everyone out we wouldnt be america anymore... that's what you fail to understand.

Zygomaticus
08-20-2003, 04:58 AM
The world was worse off when USA was purely isolationist. You get some, you lose some. It's not like we're completely friendless now. Do you forsee the number of enemies we'd make if we just withdrew everything? That is when we'd have NO 'friends.' World Wars might start up again seeing as the USA won't be there to help... :eek:

Oh yeah, and with great power comes great responsibility. :D

Couldn't resist... :p

Delphi's Clone
08-20-2003, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by pbguy1211
if we kept everyone out we wouldnt be america anymore... that's what you fail to understand.


That is very true but illegal imigrants are not welcome one of them could easly be a terrorist, Now legal immagrents would still come in to the country it's just the illegals like mexicans and people from canada that would be stopped...

STTCT
08-20-2003, 05:11 AM
If we don't do it...who will?

Our country was founded upon the values that we will always stand up for the little people. You can't tell me that the Iraqi People did not need to be freed from Saddam? I'm sick of us going out and helping a country out and then the country starts to pick on us for everything afterwards.

pbguy1211
08-20-2003, 05:38 AM
The reasoning for going after Saddam, to me, was suspect. But after finding all those mass graves in Iraq, I was glad we did. Who knows what else he could have done.

And some of the 9/11 terrorists were here on EXPIRED visas. To me that means we didn't have the proper government funding going to the right places and the people who needed the resources to check up on these kinds of things weren't able to do so. That seems to be fixed now... I hope.
And you have to let foreign students over here to learn things they wouldn't be able to learn in other countries. Then they can hopefully take back with them their knowledge and spread it, or stay here and live a better life if they see fit.

Havoc Stryphe
08-20-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by darthfergie
Ah, but Japan's constitution (or whatever they call their basis of government) strictly prohibits a Japanese military ever again. So pretty much we are their protector for all of the forseeable future.

Actually, Japan does have a small military, mainly a small navy and airforce, virtually zero ground troops, but it is only for self defense. According to their 'constitution', Japan cannot declare war without first being attacked.

But, for all intent and purposes, you are right, they do rely on America to come to their aid, moreso than their own military.

lukeiamyourdad
08-20-2003, 04:19 PM
The reason for going against Saddam were false although I'm happy he's not president of anything anymore. Iraq or Saddam had no link at all with the 9/11 events.

I think there are many reasons people hate the US and it is these reasons that should be looked upon:

1. Sometimes you help a country, help it to the end. Somalia was abandonned and so was Viet-Nam. Overall, economical embargoes are perhaps worse the war itself, always think about the aftermath. Starvation, diseases, etc. are far more deadly then the battles. It's always there that the US puts his hands in its pockets and says oh it's over lalalala...

2. When someone talks about economical help this does not mean put your industries so you can exploit cheap labor.

3. The US bullies everyone who don't share the same point of view(not militarily but politicaly and economicaly). When Canada was opposed to the US about Iraq, it started many economical conflicts between the 2 countries and led to loss of jobs. Many Canadian jobs were lost.

4. Freedom for everyone. Sometimes it sounds like the US is "Freedom for us, screw everyone else".

Tie Guy
08-20-2003, 05:21 PM
luke, please, for future reference, wait until you can make sense to say something.

The US sends billions, billions, of dollars to foreign countries in medical supplies, food, and other neccessities every year, more than any other country by far. Don't talk about the US abandonning any country, because those countries (and they are very few) wouldn't have anything without the US's aid.

Also, the US doesn't "put" businesses in other countries to exploit cheaper labor, so i don't know who possessed you to say that. If private companies wish to relocate their private business, they can do so, and oftentimes at a considerable loss to the American people, i might add. The US tries to stop such migration.

About Canada, if they won't support us, why should we support them? You make it sound like we had no reason to be upset with Canada and did it out of the blue just to screw them over. Canada and their people can hold any opinion they desire, and we Americans can do business with anyone we desire. Canada doesn't have some right to our business. And those jobs you say were lost would obviously have been absolutely nothing if it weren't for the US in the first place.

And who are "screw everyone else," people. Is it the Iraqis we just liberated from a tyrannical dictator who tortured and killed them?


The simple fact is, that without the US, this world would be a lot poorer and a lot more dangerous. Maybe you don't agree with the methods, but the results are undeniable.

lukeiamyourdad
08-21-2003, 04:59 PM
1. I don't trust a country who spends $400 billions for its military intead for the welfare of its people.

2. The government doesn't stop them and the big corporates do whatever they want even exploiting kids in third world countries.

3. Many countries part of the UN do receive economical help. At the vote for war against Iraq all those countries voted for the war. If that's not bribery I don't know what is.

4. The US is always late on his economical aid for Afghanistan...

5. The US ambassador in Canada said that "Canada is the US' best friend" Bush forgot to mention us as one of the countries who supported the US after 9/11. Best friend...

6. Why would we join a war that has nothing to do with us? Why would we send our underequipped guys in?

7. Countries without huge armies are better and offers their citizens better lives.

8. If the US wasn't there another world power would have been. The world is still too poor.

By the way, when I went to California, the US customs knew everything about me...when I went to France, they knew no ****. Just looked at the Passport and that's it...
Example of "Freedom for you screw everyone else's".
I'm not a citizen of the US! Where's my privacy?

Tie Guy
08-21-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad 3. Many countries part of the UN do receive economical help. At the vote for war against Iraq all those countries voted for the war. If that's not bribery I don't know what is.


It's called "loyalty," something your beloved Canada obviously doesn't know much about.



By the way, when I went to California, the US customs knew everything about me...when I went to France, they knew no ****. Just looked at the Passport and that's it...
Example of "Freedom for you screw everyone else's".
I'm not a citizen of the US! Where's my privacy?

Well what if you were a terrorist or a known criminal or drug trafficer trying to get into the country? Should we just let them in after only checking a passport?

So they know things about you; only peope with things to hide have anything to fear.

lukeiamyourdad
08-21-2003, 05:25 PM
There's a difference between standing loyal to someone for what is right and sucking up.
Would you stand loyal to Hitler if he gave you cash?(I know a little extreme but still)
Standing up for your ideals and the welfare of your people is by far more important.

I don't have anything to hide but still it proves my point that the US cares no **** about other people's privacy. If I was falsely accused they would no everything about me and coome hunt me down.

I believe there are other methods of stopping terrorists or criminals on the borders then invading the privacy of the citizens of other countries.

swphreak
08-21-2003, 08:40 PM
I don't really care what anyone else says. I'm happy living in America. Heck, there are people who risk their lives to live in America. I'm just lucky to be able to live here.


and it wouldn't bother me if I went to some other country and they had some background check of me. i don't really have anything to hide. I guess we should just forget about customs and just let everyone come in. :rolleyes:

and should we just bring all our troops back and let another Hitler or whoever come to power? I'm sure we could bring our troops home and become Isolationists again. Let the other side of the world kill each other.

Delphi's Clone
08-22-2003, 05:25 AM
Ok just what luke said was a GREAT example thanks buddy!

Ok see most europeans and other countrys we aid think the way he dose. So why should we aid them they dont deserve it.

Also yes i agree some of the world would be a parking lot without us.

And why lookout for welfare when military is more important. If terrorists attack we slaughter them good deal end of story. If a person is poor in america it's his own fault but i personally dont think the regular people who work hard for their money should give others who dont work their hard earned cash.

Also America is a free country, companys can do what they want. Now what you are suggesting look.

Social welfare
Restrictions on companys.

Well that sounds allot like communism to me, and you know that that stuff dosnt work.

And i feel totally secure knowing that my country knows everything about everyone. It's a good thing and about the only way to track down fanatic scum. And if you have a better idea please share i am sure the US would appriciate it if you really did have a better way to stop terrorism.


And if half of the world started killing eachother would we care? Yes

Should we care?
No

The fact of the matter is Americans are WAAY to nice. Honestly their is nothing more that many europeans wish than to see USA fail in somthing. They are often jellouse (some arnt), and cant accept americans have easyer lives than them.

pbguy1211
08-22-2003, 06:15 AM
Please, any country that hates us is very jealous. It's really that simple. Jealous of what? It could be a number of things. Mainly the power and $$$ we have. Not to be arrogant or anything, but when we kept interviewing people in the mideast as to why they hate us, I can't seem to ever find a legit reason.

And while I'm not for communism, I think that all people having some form of basic things in life isn't asking a lot. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. You just don't hear about the poor all that often because the rich ones own the media outlets.

Why is there no national health care?

Why can the rich right off so much crap on their taxes that you KNOW is BS.

Why does an executive sitting in his office get to keep his 7 figure bonus and 20,000 other people get laid off?

Yeah, that's right... that's fair...

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2003, 12:53 PM
pbguy is totally right. The rich are always gettin richer and the poor poorer due to the innaction of the government.
The rich own the companies, the companies pays a LOT of money for presidential campaigns.
Now I don't think some of you know what politics are.
Why would a guy who owns a big company (such as New York's mayor Micheal Bloomberg) would go into politics?
Why would he suffer the pressure of politics for a much lower salary?
Doesn't make any sense does it?

Well you know it certainly isn't out of the goodness of their hearts or their "will" to make the world change. None of them are intellectuals(except Woodrow Wilson but that was a long time ago). They own big companies, are being paid a lot of money by other big companies so they can become leaders and make laws, taxes for those big corporates.
It's a well known fact.
One big example is "First Energy" the company mainly involved with the big blackout.
They gave about 900 000$ to the Bush presidential campaign...will the government investigate the company seriously? Obviously not.

So the capitalist saying you do what you wanna do and if you can make money doing it, do it should have been different. "Do what you want to do, if you can make money money doing, do it, unless if it's off other people's arses".
Since those big companies are paying the president, they will be able to do almost everything they want.
So the US companies taking advantage of the third world country obviously isn't countered effiencently.

In other words, the corporate litterally control a part of the country.

pbguy- I believe that what you see through the media is pretty much the voice of extremists. Even when interviewing some random citizen, they have to say what the extremists are saying 'cause they don't want to be found dead the next day.

Delphi- Yeah let's go back to despotism and watch warlords struggle to take control of the country...

Havoc Stryphe
08-22-2003, 02:30 PM
Here's a thought, fellas, the entire world, including the United States is a product of human nature. All forms of government are subject to failure eventually due to human nature. There are billions upon billions of people on this planet, the majority of which could not, and/or will not, be able to fight their own human nature, the very inner most desires of our ID's (Greed, power, sex etc..) long enough or completely enough to affect real change in our world. In most instances the groundwork and foundations of a corrupt world are so inlaid and so well established that virtually nothing could change them at this point.

I know it's a sad outlook on life and our existence in this realm, but it is sadly the truth of our situation. We can argue, we can shout, we can debate until we are blue in the face and yet the world will remain vastly unchanged.

I once thought as you did, that the ideals are possible if only people would join together and strive to attain them, but unfortunately the human race as a whole is destined to collapse upon itself and writhe in it's own failures. (This truth remains virtually sound throughout all faiths and cultures, including my own belief of Christianity) Mankind will continue to dig her own grave and we can do nothing but watch and lament or watch and make the best of the time we have. The choice is yours alone to make.

You want to affect real change than seek to do so in your immediate sorroundings and environments. That is where you can have the most effect, but to shout about the sad state of affairs of the world (Read: Politics, Health Care, Governments, War etc) is to waste your breath on things that are, fundamentaly, a lost cause.
That's breath that could be used to tutor a less fortunate student; mentor as a big brother/sister; neuter/spade a dog or cat; Help an old lady across the street; recycle your cans, bottles, and newspapers; tell your family you love them; or even just help a cat out of a tree. That's how you can affect real change and by doing so make a real difference.

The world is nothing more than the collective grouping of our individual personalities, what kind of attitude are you contributing?

Just food for thought...

Tie Guy
08-22-2003, 05:23 PM
Why is there no national health care?

There is. It's called "work." You get a job, you get healthcare, simple as that. People too lazy/uneducated etc. to get a fulltime job don't get or frankly deserve healthcare. I realize, of course, that plenty of people are looking and deserving of jobs yet can't find any, but that's how capitalism works. Work hard, and you eventually will get a job, wherever it may be.

pbguy1211
08-22-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Tie Guy
There is. It's called "work." You get a job, you get healthcare, simple as that. People too lazy/uneducated etc. to get a fulltime job don't get or frankly deserve healthcare.

Um actually it isn't that simple. and you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.

What about single mothers who can't afford to work fulltime? What about self employed people in small businesses? What about the health care that doesn't cover entire families? Or doesn't cover the things a good dental plan should. Please go get a job yourself so you can buy a clue next time.

Havoc Stryphe
08-22-2003, 07:54 PM
*sigh*

My words have semingly fallen on deaf ears...

Let's try not to get personal fellas, keep the insults/digs to a minimum please. Let's keep this a debate and not an argument.


:(

Ray Jones
08-22-2003, 09:09 PM
hmmm... i guess someone has to play the "big daddy" and i prefer more the (btw good equipped) US to take this role than others or noone. On the other hand: war should never be a solution. But some "people" must learn "respect". What would be, if noone ever had stepped up against Hitler?

[edit]

Another way would be perhabs a international troup to fulfill such "global police operations". It's just not good to let people like Saddam and co walk around and kill people like they want to .. it is too dangerous for us all. As long as mankind hasnt recognized what it ("our life on earth") is really about, someone has to watch out and "keep peace" as far and good as possible.

Tie Guy
08-22-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by pbguy1211
Um actually it isn't that simple. and you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.

What about single mothers who can't afford to work fulltime? What about self employed people in small businesses? What about the health care that doesn't cover entire families? Or doesn't cover the things a good dental plan should. Please go get a job yourself so you can buy a clue next time.


What? If you work fulltime for a business, then they provide you some form of healthcare, period. If you work for yourself, then your healthcare is part of your expenses, as is that of your employees. It really is that simple. Providing health care for your family, if you work fulltime, really shouldn't be a problem, though most plans that i know of provide care for families. And i do know because my dad owns a business. Dental care is far from neccessary in most situations, though good companies do provide it. Especially since dental problems can be relatively easily prevented.

Besides, it's not the government's job to take care of you, it yours. That's the real problem here. We have a need (in this case healthcare) and so instead of working hard to get it, we act like we somehow deserve it and demand it from the government. And even if the government did provide it, it wouldn't be for free, because it would have to be paid for in taxes, taxes that come from the people in the first place. And then we get into the issue of stealing from the hard-working middle and upper classes and give it to the many times apathetic, lazy, or otherwise undeserving (though often pitiable) lower classes. And then those people depend on the government for help, so they have absolutely no incentive to go out a get a job, because the government (and thereby the hard-working people of America) gives it to them for nothing. And while we're at it, why don't we just give them checks so they never have to work in their life to get by? Oh wait! We already do! We're setting up a crutch that cripples the poor and can deprive them of any need or desire to work and better themselves and the country.


Oh, and as for single mothers who can't work fulltime, that's unfortunate. But should the government, and the people of America, pay for that women's mistake? No. And quite frankly, they should just work fulltime. It's unfortunate to be sure, but they put themselves in that situation (unless their husband died, which is very rare) so why should I have to pay for her healthcare?

The role of the government is to protect the rights of the people, and that is all. It is NOT to support them or give them freebies when they make a mistake or fall down. That's the individual's, the family's, and the community's role. This issue right here is the number one problem, i think, with political thought of this time, not to mention one of the largest dividing lines between liberals and conservatives. Don't try to thrust personal problems upon the government simply because you can't solve it yourself.

pbguy1211
08-22-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Tie Guy
What? If you work fulltime for a business, then they provide you some form of healthcare, period. If you work for yourself, then your healthcare is part of your expenses, as is that of your employees. It really is that simple. Providing health care for your family, if you work fulltime, really shouldn't be a problem, though most plans that i know of provide care for families. And i do know because my dad owns a business. Dental care is far from neccessary in most situations, though good companies do provide it. Especially since dental problems can be relatively easily prevented.

Besides, it's not the government's job to take care of you, it yours. That's the real problem here. We have a need (in this case healthcare) and so instead of working hard to get it, we act like we somehow deserve it and demand it from the government. And even if the government did provide it, it wouldn't be for free, because it would have to be paid for in taxes, taxes that come from the people in the first place. And then we get into the issue of stealing from the hard-working middle and upper classes and give it to the many times apathetic, lazy, or otherwise undeserving (though often pitiable) lower classes. And then those people depend on the government for help, so they have absolutely no incentive to go out a get a job, because the government (and thereby the hard-working people of America) gives it to them for nothing. And while we're at it, why don't we just give them checks so they never have to work in their life to get by? Oh wait! We already do! We're setting up a crutch that cripples the poor and can deprive them of any need or desire to work and better themselves and the country.


Oh, and as for single mothers who can't work fulltime, that's unfortunate. But should the government, and the people of America, pay for that women's mistake? No. And quite frankly, they should just work fulltime. It's unfortunate to be sure, but they put themselves in that situation (unless their husband died, which is very rare) so why should I have to pay for her healthcare?

The role of the government is to protect the rights of the people, and that is all. It is NOT to support them or give them freebies when they make a mistake or fall down. That's the individual's, the family's, and the community's role. This issue right here is the number one problem, i think, with political thought of this time, not to mention one of the largest dividing lines between liberals and conservatives. Don't try to thrust personal problems upon the government simply because you can't solve it yourself.

You're not looking at the big picture and you're not hearing what I'm saying... so I will not continue this debate.

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Tie Guy
1.What? If you work fulltime for a business, then they provide you some form of healthcare, period. If you work for yourself, then your healthcare is part of your expenses, as is that of your employees. It really is that simple. Providing health care for your family, if you work fulltime, really shouldn't be a problem, though most plans that i know of provide care for families. And i do know because my dad owns a business. Dental care is far from neccessary in most situations, though good companies do provide it. Especially since dental problems can be relatively easily prevented.

2.Besides, it's not the government's job to take care of you, it yours. That's the real problem here. We have a need (in this case healthcare) and so instead of working hard to get it, we act like we somehow deserve it and demand it from the government. And even if the government did provide it, it wouldn't be for free, because it would have to be paid for in taxes, taxes that come from the people in the first place. And then we get into the issue of stealing from the hard-working middle and upper classes and give it to the many times apathetic, lazy, or otherwise undeserving (though often pitiable) lower classes. And then those people depend on the government for help, so they have absolutely no incentive to go out a get a job, because the government (and thereby the hard-working people of America) gives it to them for nothing. And while we're at it, why don't we just give them checks so they never have to work in their life to get by? Oh wait! We already do! We're setting up a crutch that cripples the poor and can deprive them of any need or desire to work and better themselves and the country.


3.Oh, and as for single mothers who can't work fulltime, that's unfortunate. But should the government, and the people of America, pay for that women's mistake? No. And quite frankly, they should just work fulltime. It's unfortunate to be sure, but they put themselves in that situation (unless their husband died, which is very rare) so why should I have to pay for her healthcare?

4.The role of the government is to protect the rights of the people, and that is all. It is NOT to support them or give them freebies when they make a mistake or fall down. That's the individual's, the family's, and the community's role. This issue right here is the number one problem, i think, with political thought of this time, not to mention one of the largest dividing lines between liberals and conservatives. Don't try to thrust personal problems upon the government simply because you can't solve it yourself.

1. If you work for yourself you have NO WAY to get decent healthcare. What if you're hospitalized for a few days? It costs 10 000+. Now if you're so rich and wealthy to find 10grand just like that...

2. We have the same problem here in Canada. The government does give money to people. But it's barely enough to make you live(200$ believe me ain't a lot). Some shout against that, but what the hell? Some of them deserve help, some of them don't, who are we to judge them?

3. Yeah let those bitch and their KIDS die. yeah...

4. You're right it is not the government's job to totally support you. No doubt about that. One day if you need help, don't come crying to anyone.


Havoc- Nah I heard you man. Well we already do all of that:p besides, shouting relieves us and heck it's better to shout at them about their actions then letting do everything they want.

Zygomaticus
08-22-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. If you work for yourself you have NO WAY to get decent healthcare. What if you're hospitalized for a few days? It costs 10 000+. Now if you're so rich and wealthy to find 10grand just like that...

3. Yeah let those bitch and their KIDS die. yeah...


1. Perhaps I speak from limited experience, but people get insurance for this kind of problem, to help pay for the expenses.

3. Maybe I'm a heartless, pathetic, fool who has never faced a similar hardship, but when you create a problem for yourself, you work extra-hard to solve it. Now, like Tie Guy said, if it was no mistake, and the husband died, then that's another case.

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2003, 11:31 PM
1. What happens if you can't get insurance? Let them die?

3. And in the meantime those kids have nothing to wear, nothing to eat...Of course you have to work extra-hard! and what if their husband left them? what if he's a violent guy and she made a mistake? should the kids suffer from her mistake?

Tie Guy
08-22-2003, 11:36 PM
1. If you work for yourself you have NO WAY to get decent healthcare. What if you're hospitalized for a few days? It costs 10 000+. Now if you're so rich and wealthy to find 10grand just like that...

We're talking health insurance here, not paying for the healthcare itself. And it is possible, because like i said, my dad owns a small business and works for himself, and we have perfectly good healthcare.


3. Yeah let those bitch and their KIDS die. yeah...


Alright, that is NOT what i said. Besides, you're the one who said that government funding can't support people.

What i did say is that instead of whining to the government she should go out and get a job like everyone else or make due with what she has. I know she may have to make some sacrifices (like not being with her child all the time), but that's life, ain't it? And it's her problem, not the governments, and certainly not mine or other taxpayers.



4. You're right it is not the government's job to totally support you. No doubt about that. One day if you need help, don't come crying to anyone.


You can be assured that i won't. I would get rid of medicare and social security if i could, for myself included. That would put money back in the pockets of people so they could get their own health insurance if they wanted to supplement their private pension plans, or they could use it for whatever they desired, stimulating the economy in the meantime, which would only help their 401ks.

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Tie Guy


1. Alright, that is NOT what i said. Besides, you're the one who said that government funding can't support people.

What i did say is that instead of whining to the government she should go out and get a job like everyone else or make due with what she has. I know she may have to make some sacrifices (like not being with her child all the time), but that's life, ain't it? And it's her problem, not the governments, and certainly not mine or other taxpayers.


2. You can be assured that i won't. I would get rid of medicare and social security if i could, for myself included. That would put money back in the pockets of people so they could get their own health insurance if they wanted to supplement their private pension plans, or they could use it for whatever they desired, stimulating the economy in the meantime, which would only help their 401ks.

1. She won't whine. it's not about whining it's about having the decency to help someone in need. Like I said, who are you to judge people's situation?

2. When you're gonna have a family to take care of, you'll think again.

pbguy1211
08-22-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Tie Guy
We're talking health insurance here, not paying for the healthcare itself. And it is possible, because like i said, my dad owns a small business and works for himself, and we have perfectly good healthcare.

If your dad has a small business, and you have health care, he pays for it. And it ain't cheap.

Zygomaticus
08-22-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. What happens if you can't get insurance? Let them die?

3. And in the meantime those kids have nothing to wear, nothing to eat...Of course you have to work extra-hard! and what if their husband left them? what if he's a violent guy and she made a mistake? should the kids suffer from her mistake?

1. As I warned, I spake from limited experience. I was hoping you might have a solution if that was the case.

3. People who work extra-hard aren't left with nothing to wear and nothing to eat. If she was diligent enough to atleast finish high school, a reasonable paying job isn't difficult to get. You're talking of extreme cases which aren't many - and when there is an extreme case there are solutions, like, Shepherd's Gate, for example :p

It's interesting how this topic evolved. Why are we debating this?

Tie Guy
08-22-2003, 11:47 PM
1. What happens if you can't get insurance? Let them die?

3. And in the meantime those kids have nothing to wear, nothing to eat...Of course you have to work extra-hard! and what if their husband left them? what if he's a violent guy and she made a mistake? should the kids suffer from her mistake?

Like i said, you work-extra hard and make some sacrifices to provide the essentials (food, clothing, healthcare, shelter, etc) for your kids. If you are working full time, and you spend you're money efficently, without wasting it, then you will be able to afford the neccessities.

And somehow i missed the part where it became my responsibity to care for single mothers as a whole and my fault when they didn't get by. No, it's their fault, or the fault of their family for not taking care of her. I know liberals want to solve everything with government programs, but its not the government's fault or responsibility either. The government can't solve people's individual problems, because that's not the purpose of government. Even so we try, and it always has proved way beyond their capacity and that doesn't really help all that much. Medicare and social security and other similar programs may have been great for the Great Depression, but now they are simply wasting a lot of money relative to the amount of people they are really helping.



Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
2. When you're gonna have a family to take care of, you'll think again.

Oh, and i suppose since you're sixteen and all you already know perfectly well.

pbguy1211
08-22-2003, 11:49 PM
Tie Guy, I have a few questions for you...
A: How old are you?
B: Have you ever had a real job?
C: Do you realize how much real world things cost?

Single mothers can't find the greatest jobs on the planet due to the hours they'd need and the fact that they'll most likely need a sitter/nanny.

lukeiamyourdad
08-23-2003, 12:01 AM
I'm sixteen but by god I know what I'm talking about. Do you think I'm rich? Do you think being born in a family of Viet Nam war refugees means havin everything I want???? Well happy for you if your family never had money problems and your father never had to make money over here so he can send it back to his brothers and sisters still over there!!!! I know very well what I'm talking about.

Hey it's not my job to help old ladies crossing the street but I do it anyway.
Hey it's not my job to help people in need.
It's not my job for having sympathy for people living of the street.
Hey it's the fault of old people for aging. Let them die alone in their little house away from everyone.
Hey it's the fault of immigrants for being poor when coming over here.

You certainly are a very generous being.

Delphi's Clone
08-23-2003, 01:26 AM
I totally agree with Tie Guy and Krkode.

Well luke and PBGuy i guess you two are very nice and overly generouse. Personally if you want to give your money away i'm fine with that. But no one will ever force me to make someone els have a good life. If i do it i do it out of charity, not because i'm forced to. And honesly I need my money, and no one will ever take away my hard earned cash. If you work hard enough anything is possible. Most poor people in america are poor because they didnt work hard enough in their lives.

Tie Guy
08-23-2003, 02:28 AM
Tie Guy, I have a few questions for you...
A: How old are you?
B: Have you ever had a real job?
C: Do you realize how much real world things cost?[/B]

I'm seventeen. I have a real job, though not one that gives healthcare benefits, if that's what you mean. I realize things how much things in the "real world" cost. I also know that if you shop around and spend your money efficiently, it can go much further. How do i know? Because i do, and my mom does religiously. She hardly ever buys anything special that's not on sale or without a coupon.

Luke, i guess you think i'm rich or something, but that's far from the truth. Now my family has plenty of money for what we need, and my dad's business is doing well, though it's still pretty small. But there were times, especially a few years ago when he was getting started, that money was tight. We never lived on the street or missed meals, but money was tight, and we were sending anywhere from 2 to 4 kids to private school at great sacrifice. But we did fine, because we spent money only on what we needed. If i wanted something, i could wait till christmas or buy it myself. That's still how it works. As a 3rd child of 4, i don't get whatever i want, i get little of what i want (except on special occasions) unless i go out and buy it myself. And you know what, i work hard and earn money and buy the things i want. That's how life works. You can do whatever you want as long as you work hard and are willing to sacrifice. Case and point, i'm working extremely hard in school and sacrificing a lot of fun things, but i'm going to earn almost 50 hours of college credit before i even step on campus, and that means scholarships, and less time at college, and that means money to college on so my parents don't have to scrape. And it's worth it, because i earned it, not because I was given it, or needed to be given it.



NOTE: I'm NOT saying that if someone needed help in my family or among my friends that i wouldn't help them however i could. I'm only saying it's not the government's responsibility to take care of the economic status of the people, it's the people's themselves.

What if the government did what you propose it should? I'll tell you this, they first would have to take most of your money in taxes to pay for it. And then, since there are more people needing care than pay taxes, the entire program, and ultimately the government itself, would go bankrupt. Medicare/Medicaid already is going bankrupt and it's influence is very small.

Maybe it's not your job to help old ladies, and maybe you still do it, but you don't spend other people's money to help old ladies. It's entirely different.


Oh, BTW, you might have heard of a word called "pension." Old people who worked when they were young keep getting benefits when they retire. So if they worked when they could, they wouldn't need government's help to keep them from dying in a shack somewhere. And you make it sound like the government is all these poor old people can depend on. Where are those people's families while they are dying in a shack somewhere from a lack of government-funded health insurance? Please.

lukeiamyourdad
08-23-2003, 05:15 PM
If the damn government would stop spending so much on it's stupid military it would have more cash to give to the people.
I think it's something like 30% of the taxes you pay that goes to the military. You don't have to pay more taxes.

You said it yourself. The government is there to protect people's rights. Isn't it a right to have a bit of money when in trouble?
Isn't it a right to be healthy?

If you so kindly give so much tax money so weapons even deadlier then now can be create, why can't you give that to a better cause?

I'm sorry you don't really how much money the government should give them if they need it. Here it's like 200$ per month equalling 2400$ per year. It's just to keep them alive until they can find a job and a place to live. Is that asking to much? Besidea how can they live with 2400$ per year? I'm not asking your government to pay them eveything.

Over here in Québec we are the most taxed people in North America. Some complaint, some don't. But we get really cheap electricity, free healthcare for anyone and everyone, and a "in case of extreme emergency" help from the government.

Tie Guy
08-23-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
[B]If the damn government would stop spending so much on it's stupid military it would have more cash to give to the people.
I think it's something like 30% of the taxes you pay that goes to the military. You don't have to pay more taxes.

You said it yourself. The government is there to protect people's rights. Isn't it a right to have a bit of money when in trouble?
Isn't it a right to be healthy?

If you so kindly give so much tax money so weapons even deadlier then now can be create, why can't you give that to a better cause?

uh...no. The government spends a relatively miniscule amount on the military. Most of the money we spend goes to education grants and prgrams, then the social welfare programs we are talking about. And still those programs hardly do anything. Military spending is small compared to those. You just think it is a lot because all Canada has is a few mounties and some canoes. You better hope no one tries to invade you. Oh wait, nevermind, you'll be fine if that happens, because we, the United States, will protect you. A country needs a strong military for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is so that it can deploy peace-keeping or interventionary troops to it's allies who are in trouble, or to those places that threaten it. If the US had Canada's military, the Iraqi people would still be being tortured by Sadam and his sadistic sons right now, and the few thousand terrorists that were in northern Iraq would still be on the loose.

No, the government needs to stop trying to "help" people with these programs and just give them their money back. If we cut the programs, everyone would get massive tax breaks, untimately putting tons of money back in their pockets, more money than a government program could ever give them.


An no, you do not have a right to a job, or to money, even when you are in trouble. The problem is that people think they do. Instead of working hard to find a job or get by on what they have, they act like they have some god-given "right" to some money when they haven't earned it.

Basic human rights that the government protects are life, liberty (through things such as the Bill of Rights), and opportunity (aka the pursiut of happiness). That's all. Money, help, free things when you're down, a house, none of those are on the list.

The government should protect people's freedom and opportunity to get a job and support themselves, not try to help them get that job, or to support them if they can't.

lukeiamyourdad
08-23-2003, 11:20 PM
Canada doesn't need a huge military because unlike others we don't make enemies or have any.

argh...

this is getting pointless...

You don't even understand that it's not reall free that some people deserve it and that you judge people before knowing what's happening. By that way, you turn down the opportunity for others, the people who need help, to actually have help. Some will take advantage of it of course, but they'll all pay for it someday.

Oh and by the way, there's more to any country in the world then stupid stereotypes.

Zygomaticus
08-23-2003, 11:46 PM
Not all "enemies" have to be provoked. What if they make you their enemies? It probably hasn't happened to Canada, I don't know why, but I think I know why it happens to the US.

lukeiamyourdad
08-23-2003, 11:57 PM
A quite humorous answer would be the cold temperatures of winter.

It's well known throughout history that it plays a major role.

Napoleon lost 500 000 men in Russia due to the winter.

French Canadian Forces pushed back an assault from the Americans because of the winter.

German Soldiers couldn't beat the Soviets because of the harsh winter temperatures.

IT happened in the past that Canada was made the enemy of someone but these days nobody cares about this lost country.

Zygomaticus
08-24-2003, 12:01 AM
Then don't you think this

Canada doesn't need a huge military because unlike others we don't make enemies or have any.

needs revision to this, perhaps?

Canada doesn't need a huge military because unlike (like, in some cases) others Mother nature takes care of us.

;)

Delphi's Clone
08-24-2003, 01:07 AM
Tie guy is right

No one no matter what their situation, deserves my money. The only money i give is for my protection and that is a good military, police ETC. If i want insurance i get my own. Most americans get their own. And if they cant afford it theyre problem. I dont care what their situation if they cant afford food they aint gettin my money, if they are stupid enoug let em shrivel up on the streets and die (which wouldnt happen because churches help those people get food) Honestly if a mother cant afford her child, screw her take the child to an orfanage and let the mom get a job or beacome a street begger. Honeslty i dont give a damn about the people and how they get themselfs into it, and if its even their fault. I dont care they dont deserve my money. Honesly luke your dumb, we need a military and a damn big one cause if we didnt countrys would kill us. Why do they hate us? Because they are so jelouse of America, why are they jellouse of us? Because we are so successfull. SO you are right with that luke. Canada has nothing to worry about. Who would ever be jelouse of canada?