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Crazy_dog no.3
08-23-2003, 09:41 PM
I just watched a TV program called "Top 10 ways to talk to the dead", which showed a lot of things from crystal balls to trances (?).
But the last one seemed to me like reasonable, IF there is an afterlife. It was some guy in America who got his friend who will pass away soon to memorise messages, $5 per word, to tell someone's dead friends, family, etc. once he reaches the afterlife.
So that got me thinking. Is there an afterlife? But then I remembered all my reasons for previosly not believing in an afterlife, but I have to say that my POV was challenged because it made me think: I don't know until I'm dead.
So I think that there is no heaven, and no hell, there is nothing. It is not even just blackness becuase by then u will be dead so u will not see colour (or lack of it)

What do u lot think?

Silenthunter
08-23-2003, 09:51 PM
Personally, being a christian I believe in Heaven and Hell. And since I have recieved Christ into my heart I believe that I'll be going to Heaven. Even if I'm somehow wrong, it's still better than not knowing till you get there. You may not share the same opinion, but that's your choice. It's a free forum. :)

Zygomaticus
08-23-2003, 10:01 PM
Personally, I don't see it quite like heaven-hell. I see it as a cycle of rebirths. Live a good life and you may be free from ever living again, hence you will be free from the cycle of rebirth, and your soul will spend the rest of its time in God's home. Live a bad life and you will be born again, and again, and again until you live a good life. Sometimes, if you live a moderately good life, you will have freedom and opportunity in your next life. If you live a terrible life, you might be born into badness. :indif: Men like Gandhi might be with God right now, the way I see it. Men like Hitler might be roaming the streets as some sickly old man, as we speak. My belief goes something like that...

lukeiamyourdad
08-23-2003, 11:25 PM
Buddhism ressembles hinduism to a very high degree. So being a buddhist and krkrode probably being a hinduist, I won't repeat what he said.

Although it seems unlikely that's there isn't anything after life. What would be the purpose of life then?

Clefo
08-23-2003, 11:47 PM
Maybe there isn't a purpose to life. I mean man is probably the biggest narcassicst in all creation.

I say don't worry about afterlife or final judgement or anything. Don't get me wrong, you shouldn't go kill babies or something, but you should still live a good, clean, and moral life. Not because it might be a ticket into Heaven, but because it's the right thing to do, and if fluffy clouds and angels are there after your death, all the better.

Zygomaticus
08-23-2003, 11:52 PM
I agree with Clefo. Freedom from rebirth, or for that matter, fame, should not be your goal while doing good things. The satisfaction arising from a good deed done should be the goal. Atleast I see that as my goal, or try to.

jediduo
08-24-2003, 01:03 AM
Ooooh, I just HAVE to get in on this......

I am a Christian, and I believe in a doctrine called "Universal Salvation". It differs from the standard "Christians go to heaven, others go to hell" idea in that I believe that hell IS NOT ETERNAL, but heaven is. If God truly is a loving God, than it makes no sense for Him to send His Son to die for the whole world, then withdraw that offer and only accept a few while the rest of the world (which He supposedly loves) suffers eternal torment. I believe that God uses hell as a "remedial punishment". He has them suffer so that they can fully realize and appreciate His grace and love. If anyone wants verses that back this up, I'll gladly provide them.


I realize that this could be a very controversial topic among the Christians here. We (my church) almost lost our church building, land, and any staff benefits because of this notion. So please: no flaming, 'k? :)

lukeiamyourdad
08-24-2003, 01:44 AM
Isn't there a place called the purgatory in the Christian religion? Or is it just for the Catholics?
I heard that it was a place in the middle between Heaven and Hell, where you spent some time(if not going directly to heaven or hell) to redeem yourself so you can go to heaven.
The Pope(at the time of the rise of the protestants) was selling something that would make you spend less time at the purgatory whichc was outraged many.

Arreat
08-24-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Silenthunter
Personally, being a christian I believe in Heaven and Hell. And since I have recieved Christ into my heart I believe that I'll be going to Heaven. Even if I'm somehow wrong, it's still better than not knowing till you get there. You may not share the same opinion, but that's your choice. It's a free forum. :)

Ditto... If there was an afterlife I'd love to stay in purgatory.

Niwid
08-24-2003, 03:54 AM
Isn't there a place called the purgatory in the Christian religion? Or is it just for the Catholics?

Yeah, that's a Catholic belief. Basically purgatory is what jediduo was explaining as hell in Universal Salvation. You spend some time there for spiritul cleansing, then it's off of to heaven for you. The difference between how you get to heaven and how you get to purgatory is this....i you believe in being good and have God (or a variation of Him) in your heart, you will go to purgatory, but if you ignore God and do many evil acts with no remorse or guilt, then off to the fiery pits of hell you go.

This is my belief, I may be completely wrong, know living person knows.

GUNNER
08-24-2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by jediduo
Ooooh, I just HAVE to get in on this......

I am a Christian, and I believe in a doctrine called "Universal Salvation". It differs from the standard "Christians go to heaven, others go to hell" idea in that I believe that hell IS NOT ETERNAL, but heaven is. If God truly is a loving God, than it makes no sense for Him to send His Son to die for the whole world, then withdraw that offer and only accept a few while the rest of the world (which He supposedly loves) suffers eternal torment. I believe that God uses hell as a "remedial punishment". He has them suffer so that they can fully realize and appreciate His grace and love. If anyone wants verses that back this up, I'll gladly provide them.


I realize that this could be a very controversial topic among the Christians here. We (my church) almost lost our church building, land, and any staff benefits because of this notion. So please: no flaming, 'k? :)

Verses please.;)

jediduo
08-25-2003, 01:44 AM
Just give me a little bit to get the verses prepared, Gunner. I want to be as clear as possible, and it may take a little while because I'm busy packing for college. So anyway, just give me a little while.

Delphi's Clone
08-25-2003, 04:56 AM
I say i dont know if their is an afterlife so who gives a $hit about what you do in real life. I say live your life to it's best, and dont even think about afterlife. If their is an afterlife great! The only thing... just dont go about killing and destroying peoples lives, just incase their is an afterlife :P otherwise who gives a crap about everything. Have fun!

GUNNER
08-25-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Delphi's Clone
I say i dont know if their is an afterlife so who gives a $hit about what you do in real life. I say live your life to it's best, and dont even think about afterlife. If their is an afterlife great! The only thing... just dont go about killing and destroying peoples lives, just incase their is an afterlife :P otherwise who gives a crap about everything. Have fun!

So what's it going to be?

Who gives a **** if there is one -or- just in case there is one.

You can only have it one way.

GUNNER
08-25-2003, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by jediduo
Ooooh, I just HAVE to get in on this......

I am a Christian, and I believe in a doctrine called "Universal Salvation". It differs from the standard "Christians go to heaven, others go to hell" idea in that I believe that hell IS NOT ETERNAL, but heaven is. If God truly is a loving God, than it makes no sense for Him to send His Son to die for the whole world, then withdraw that offer and only accept a few while the rest of the world (which He supposedly loves) suffers eternal torment. I believe that God uses hell as a "remedial punishment". He has them suffer so that they can fully realize and appreciate His grace and love. If anyone wants verses that back this up, I'll gladly provide them.


I realize that this could be a very controversial topic among the Christians here. We (my church) almost lost our church building, land, and any staff benefits because of this notion. So please: no flaming, 'k? :)

No where does it say that GOD withdraws his offer and then lets the rest suffer.

"GOD so loved the world(all of us) that he gave his only begotton son, that who so ever should beleive in him should not parrish but have eternal life. "

Not sure where but think it's John 4 some where.

We have turned out backs on GOD, not the other way around. GOD loves us all and is wants nothing more then to spend eternity with us.

It is our "choice" to accept him into our hearts and lives. He does not come in unless we ask.

Hell is as real as Heaven and it is forever.


Jesus died so that we might live but it's our pride as humans that get in the way of not asking christ into our hearts. We want to do it ourselves but GOD says we can't.

" For I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but through me"

Good works and deeds does not buy our way to heaven. Jesus is our ticket into heaven.

God says. "you are either hot or cold" and that he spits out the luke warm.

Hell is forever.

Beleive it.

Havoc Stryphe
08-25-2003, 12:31 PM
God does not send anyone to hell. We, as humans, send ourselves by not making the right choice. Where we spend our eternal afterlife is completely up to us. God made it possible for us to obtain Heaven by sacraficing his only son, Jesus, in our place so that we find redemption and spiritual cleansing through the saving grace of Jesus's sacrafice. The only hurdle is our own egos, douubts, and desires of the flesh.

All you have to do is believe, and in believing you shall see the plan God has laid out for us, and the merit in following that plan. Accept that Christ was, indeed, the son of God, and allowed himself to be killed and sacraficed in our place and attempt to emulate Jesus's life as our own. Of course, it is impossible to live our life's with the perfection of Jesus's life, but we should try our best, and when we fail, ask for the forgiveness that is already their and paid for.

Hell is a real place and an eternal place. God has suffered and sacraficed much to ensure we have an alternative to hell, because he loves us so much and it breaks his heart to see anyone suffer the fate of hell for all eternity.

Purgatory is a result of Jesus spending three days in hell before raising from dead. So, naturally :rolleyes: , we should assume that he was purifying himself and burning away the sin he bore on the cross before he could ascend into heaven and take his place at the right hand of God the father. I rather believe that Christ was locked in battle and/or debate with Lucifer himself, to which of course he won and attained the keys to death and the grave (Whether the keys are metaphoric or actual is a whole 'nother debate, I believe it is metaphoric) so that death could no longer hold anyone whom believes in Jesus in life.

Now, on to the best, Heaven is a place of euphoric bliss and comfort, not only for the fact that everything therein is perfect but because for the first time since Adam and Eve, mankind can live in the presence of God himself as it was intended from the beginning and the creation of man. There will be no pain, no suffering. There shall be no imperfections or blemishes of the body, and our minds will be enlightened so that there will be no mystery of the universe that will be unsolved or unknown. The light of God's magnificence will illiminate so fully that even shadows will not exist. We shall converse with family and friends we had lost along the way, and with those who went before our time, and even more amazing we shall be able to converse with God himself. It will be an eternity of bliss and perfection so much so that our minds, as of now, could not comprehend it.

And the most beautiful part is it is already ours to inherit. It has been paid for by Jesus's loving sacrafice. All we have to do is believe, accept in faith and try, not even succeed, but just try to live our lives as Jesus would. Though this life may seem long it is only a glimpse of time to come, endure the short time here on earth and then Heaven will be our reward for all eternity.

This is my belief, as it is of most Christians. I will not beat it into someone's skull. God has given the choice to us, and I must do the same for others. You have the freedom to believe whatever you desire, I respect that and as does God, but whatever your choice, I employ you to give careful consideration to that choice, because it could have major ramifications for all eternity. Again, the choice is yours, may you choose wisely in your pursuit for answers in the religious and faith based realm of our existence.

GUNNER
08-26-2003, 05:29 AM
Havoc, that was wonderfully phrased.

Very good job bud. :thmbup1:

lukeiamyourdad
08-26-2003, 12:50 PM
Nice ending Havoc.

I always believed that whatever your religion is, it's what you believe in that will mostly happen.
If you're a christian, you'll go either to heaven or hell.
If you're a buddhits or hinduist, you'll get reincarnated.
If you're a jew, you go to...there's heaven in judaism but no hell right?
If you're a muslim you'll go see Allah.

Different alternate endings to different religious beliefs and decisions.

Rogue15
08-26-2003, 01:08 PM
yes i believe in the afterlife. I try not to think too hard about it though. You shouldn't have to be good, etc to get to heaven. That's supposed to come naturally, usually it doesn't. nothing you can do will get you to heaven. i wonder if that's true for hell. *shrugs* anyhow, i'm planning on being in heaven, partying w/god and my kick-ass guardian angels. It's going to be fricken awesome, w/the thunder and loud sounds and being in the presence of the Creator. Until then, I try to live a clean life, pleasing to God, and that through my life others may see Christ in me. There's one thing you won't catch me wearing, a WWJD bracelet or stuff...ehehehee who wants jelly donuts?

Fishflesh
08-26-2003, 02:23 PM
i am sorry but there is no after live.

you are just plian dead you can't think anymore you can't breath you can do nofing you aren't there anymore.

wierd, that there is nofing anymore but that's the dead...
everything stops.

so next time you see a bug, let it live. :)

jediduo
08-27-2003, 03:16 AM
Wow, Havoc. That sounded good. Do you have a ministerial liscence? :D

Havoc, what you wrote makes sense IF you believe that everyone past the age of accountibility will at some point hear the gospel. But if that's not the case, does that mean that everyone who dies without hearing the gospel goes to hell? Or heaven? Such a problem MUST have an answer. If some people are going to end up in hell, why would God waste His Son's sacrifice on them? (Jesus died for EVERYONE. Read 1 John 2:2) Gunner, this is what I meant when I said "withdraws his offer". I just worded it really badly. Sorry.

Now that that's out of the way, I just want to give you all something to ponder: Our Bible comes from the Greek translation called the Septuagint (sp?). To make a long story short, there is no equivalent for the word "eternal" in the Greek language. The closest it comes is a word that translates literally into "time until then", or until time ends. I believe that there will be a "first death" (when our Earthsuit dies) and a "second death" (see Revelation 20:6-15). These will have a "first resurrection" (Christians go to heaven, others go to hell. See Revelation 20:5) followed by a "second resurrection" (the ones who were in hell are brought out and Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. See Revelation 20:11- 21:4)

Here's some more verses to check out. Flip west to Romans 5. Read verse 12. It says that because all men have sinned, all will suffer death. We all agree, yes? Here's the doozy: Read verses 18 and 19. For those of you who forgot to bring your bible today:p , it states (layman's terms) that just as one man's sin ruined it for everyone, one man's sacrifice fixed the problem for everyone. Now, if that's the case, then why does everyone think that some will go to heaven and stay there, while others will go to hell and stay there? The answer is in the Intertestemental Period (time between Malachi and Matthew) and the rule of a dude named Augustine. And I'm tired, so I'll expand on that later.


By the way: Ackbar, that makes for a pretty bleak existence, don't you think?

Crazy_dog no.3
08-27-2003, 09:19 AM
But it won't be bleak, becuase u won't be there to know it's bleak becuase ur mind has shut down. :o

Havoc Stryphe
08-27-2003, 11:17 AM
Jediduo,

No I do not have my Pastoral License, however that is what I went to college for ;)

Here's where what we know only goes so far. If someone dies, say in some african tribe in the Congo, who has never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, then do they go to hell for not believing in Jesus, or do they go to heaven because they never had an oppurtunity?

First, as Jediduo pointed out in the book of Romans, as elsewhere in the Bible, it states that because of the sin of Adam, all mankind is subject to death (I believe this is better translated as 'Seperation from God due to sin'). Most times in the New Testament, the word death is referring to spiritual death, or seperation from God, which is caused by sin. We always hear the phrase, "The sins of the father" as a plot device for books and movies etc. This idea is straight from the bible, but is not literally 'father', but refers to Adam, the father of all mankind. His sin is inherited throughout mankind. We all carry the mark of sin, due to his failure in the Garden of Eden. Therefor, by default, mankind in unable to enter in to heaven and reside with God, until we are cleansed of our sin, through Jesus's sacrafice, but again, we must choose to accept that sacrafice. This would mean that unless they heard the gospel and believed, they will go to hell. This is why the Apostle's Charge was so important. Jesus said go forth and preach the gospel to all the lands and to every man women and child, because without it, they have no chance for eternal life in heaven.

Of course, I adamantly believe that every man women and child could have heard the gospel by now if we, as christians, were doing our jobs. It has been confirmed now, several times over that there is only six degrees of seperation between us and anyone on Earth. If we shared the Gospel with the fervency that we should be, then the Gospel would have easily reached the world over by now. Granted, there are several nations that have made it illegal to have a bible or preach the Gospel within their borders, but this should only slow the process down, not eliminate the possibility altogethor.

Here's a sobering thought: you will be resposible for the eternal resting place of every person you pass on the street, or in the hallway. You, as a christian, might be their only oppurtunity to hear the Gospel, and if you fail to share with them at least the very quick basics of Jesus Christ and his sacrafice, then they may never now the truth and when they die, will go to hell for all eternity. Their soul will be on your hands, and when the day of judgment comes, God will ask you, "Why didn't you share my Gospel with that person? Why didn't you say something?"

The Apostle's Charge was not a suggestion, it was a command. It is our purpose on Earth, as Christians, to ensure that as many people as possible can hear the gospel and can then make the choice as to go to heaven or not. Originally, the purpose for humans was to be company for God, for he was lonely, and that is why he created mankind: companionship. But due to mankind's sin, he was forced to leave us, and then sent his son to make it possible for us to someday fellowship with him again. So now, we must make it possible for everyone to have the oppurtunity to hear the gospel and believe. So that we can all fulfill our purpose again, in heaven. Actually, when the time comes, God will bring heaven to earth again, and we really will be fulfilling the very original purpose for our existence.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that it is our responsibilty, as Christians, to reach every man, woman and child (By the way, Child, here, is in reference to children who have reached the age of accountability, Babies and toddlers will go to heaven because they can't make the decision as to where to spend their eternal afterlife) with the Gospel before their time on earth expires. If they do not hear the Gospel before that time, they will go to hell for all eternity, which will sadden God greatly and he will hold their spiritual deaths accountable to those Christians who had an oppurtunity to reach them, but did not. Realistically, 2000 years is more than enough time to ensure the whole world has heard the Gospel, at least in some very basic way, and that in every part of the world there are christians there to ensure that every new generation has the same oppurtunity, therefor ensuring that all mankind can make the choice, and therefor it will be their choice as to where they will spend their eternity. If they do not hear the Gospel, it is only the fault of us Christians for not doing our jobs that were giving to us, not God's. We will held responsible, and believe me, God will want answers, because he loves every man, woman and child, and it saddens him deeply to lose any of them to hell, and eventually to the lake of fire.

When Jesus charged his diciples with the missionary charge it was not to save people from 'A temporary time' of turture and suffering, and it will pass. It was to save people from an eternity of turture and suffering. That's why there was urgency in the command. That's why we must be vigilante. We are dealing with peoples' souls for all eternity. Otherwise, we could just be ho-hum and flippant about the whole thing, "Oh well, they'll only suffer for a few hundred/thousand years. They'll still end up in heaven. No big deal." WRONG! They will end up in hell/the lake of fire for all eternity. We must allow them to hear the message, so they can make the choice of what they want to do. Don't miss the oppurtunities that you have, it might be that person's only chance to hear the Gospel.

It's not that God withdrawls his offer, or doesn't care about those who haven't heard. It's our fault they haven't heard. We've had TWO THOUSAND YEARS to make sure the Gospel is throughout the world and that we have ensured that every generation has that chance to hear. There is over 500,000,000 Christians in the world. There is absolutely NO reason why the entire world shouldn't have heard the gospel by now, and God knows that. It angers him that people will still go to hell never having heard the gospel and never having the oppurtunity to make their own decison about it. He will hold each one of us accountable for those whom we let go by without first sharing the Gospel with them.

lukeiamyourdad
08-27-2003, 02:44 PM
Now I mean no offense to no one but since I'm a buddhist and heard the gospel and chosen to stay a buddhist, and I'm a good kind and generous person, and let's say that there is a heaven and hell, does this mean I'm going to hell? It's kind of rough around the edges.

Havoc Stryphe
08-27-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Now I mean no offense to no one but since I'm a buddhist and heard the gospel and chosen to stay a buddhist, and I'm a good kind and generous person, and let's say that there is a heaven and hell, does this mean I'm going to hell? It's kind of rough around the edges.

Look, I don't want to offend anyone either, but if what I, and other Christians, believe is true than yes, you will go to hell. I'm sorry to have to say that. You can still change that though, remember, the choice is yours. I urge you to do as much research as it takes to make sure you are positive that your beliefs are right for you. If you are certain of that, and you still want nothing to do with Christianity, then for your hope I pray I'm wrong, because I really don't want to see anyone go to hell. Especially someone I know...

Again, though, this is only my belief, and ultimately, teh choice is yours. Make it a good one.

jediduo
08-30-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe

"Here's a sobering thought: you will be resposible for the eternal resting place of every person you pass on the street, or in the hallway. You, as a christian, might be their only oppurtunity to hear the Gospel, and if you fail to share with them at least the very quick basics of Jesus Christ and his sacrafice, then they may never now the truth and when they die, will go to hell for all eternity. Their soul will be on your hands, and when the day of judgment comes, God will ask you, "Why didn't you share my Gospel with that person? Why didn't you say something?"


/quote


With all due respect, can you please post some verses to validate that statement? If I understand you correctly, then I have to question why an Almighty God would leave, quite literally, the eternal fate of the entire world in the hands of a imperfect people. I personally believe that my job is to be ready and available to move with God when He moves around be. I don't have to be the Savior of the world: He's done that already! This thread is an excellent example. I didn't start this thread, but I felt that maybe some good could come out of it if I posted a bit. And sure enough, Havoc, the friendly debate that you and I have going is exposing others to our faith (and perhaps whetting their appetite). Did that make any sense to you?:(

Rogue15
08-31-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by NL_Ackbar
i am sorry but there is no after live.

you are just plian dead you can't think anymore you can't breath you can do nofing you aren't there anymore.

wierd, that there is nofing anymore but that's the dead...
everything stops.

so next time you see a bug, let it live. :)

awwwww man!!!! and here i was...believing in an afterlife.....how foolish of me. :( *hangs self with telephone cord-just to make sure*

jediduo
08-31-2003, 05:12 PM
*runs in and snips cord, setting Rogue free*

Crazy Fool........


:p

Natopo
08-31-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by NL_Ackbar
i am sorry but there is no after live.

you are just plian dead you can't think anymore you can't breath you can do nofing you aren't there anymore.

wierd, that there is nofing anymore but that's the dead...
everything stops.

so next time you see a bug, let it live. :)

You don't know that. And there is no way to find out until you die. I believe you should live a good life no matter what. That way you have nothing to lose. If there is a heaven or hell, you'll go to one of them. And if there is nothing like that, nothing happens.

Crazy_dog no.3
09-01-2003, 09:39 AM
Ah yes but if u die and there isn't an afterlife, whether it be heaven, hell, Allah's home (heaven?), reincarnation (?), Valhalla or even Planet Zwinzyzwog, u won't know it. It's like if u fall asleep. U don't know u're asleep, because, well, u're not awake to know it. Unless it is that strange dream I had 2 nights ago where I was dreaming that I was in a dream. :confused: :rolleyes: :D

I agree with the "lead a good life just in case" thing several of u have said tho.