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Frozted_MM's
09-07-2003, 10:02 AM
Economy

Some of these ideas came from other games and maybe other peoples.

1) Workers need to be hidden from attacks in the game. All u see in the game is a bunch of worker raids taking out workers in T2 with a few troops this needs to be altered a little cause I donít remember the empire sending 10 troops into battle to totally dominate the game. More huge scale battles would be great and not just a worker bash especially in the earlier techs.

2) Resources need to be changed instead of collecting the raw materials food, carbon, nova, and ore. More realistic resources need to be implemented like metal, credits (only accessed through player trade, neutral city trade or stockpile docks/crates which get refilled 2 gaming minutes after depletion), food, nova and force knowledge.

2A) Food-I left food cause every army needs food especially the civs that donít use droids. Hunt, bushes and fish. I erased farms they just donít seem like Star Wars to me. Food will be very cheap in the game so trade at the spaceport is the way to go. 50 credits= 150 food 50 nova= 200 food 50 metal= 175 food Tech levels wont require food. Nova and Credits are the new ones to tech with.

2B) Nova- I wasnít sure about this one but I added it anyway itís a rare resource used mostly to buy research. Clusters are spread around the map

2C) Metal- is used for almost every unit and building in the game except troops not including Trade Federation and Confederacy, which will rely heavily on the metal resource. For metal you build a metal production facility garrison up to 10 workers in there and watch the sparks fly while your metal is booming.

2D) Credits- is also a huge resource almost every unit that is built will require this resource the only way to get this is through trading or collecting credits in the crates from stock bays. (Even a droid cost money to put together).

2E) Power- this should be a resource well sort of building power facilities will give you power more power plants more power more buildings placed the more power that is drained. Keep an eye on this so you wont get jammed and cannot build effectively. Command Centers have its own power supply. Power droids still play a major role build one it is garrisoned in a power plant and that will increase the speed of unit production. (this was rushed Iím not sure even if I like it even if they keep power cores I wouldnít mind)

2F) Force/Jedi/Dark Jedi Knowledge- I just thought about this on the spot but they definitely need to fix the Jedi in the game. If you find a Jedi on the map he will ask you to do a quest maybe give him 2000 nova and then he will join your legion and he will have his padawan with him. Once that Padawan reaches his trials he will garrison in the Jedi Temple complete the trials takes bout 6min game time. Once the master loses his Padawan the another will be assigned and once that other one comes out another padawan will go with him so 2 become 4 Jedi 4 become 8 and so on. Force Knowledge is gained through the training from padawan to knight and finally to master different skills are learnt through the process like blaster deflection or force push. If you are lucky enough to advance a Jedi to a Legend then he will give surrounding troops and Jedi influence to hit and fire better in battle and give them the confidence to do it just by being in there presence. Here is where I throw all realism out the window so be warned I donít even know what this will be about so bear with me. Once you have really delved into the Jedi Knowledge you can start getting trainers who teach 10 younglings at a time making the process from Padawan to Master a lot faster so it is like a speed upgrade if you will. They will not train on the battlefield of cause but inside a Jedi temple (not sure if I like so I donít mind if its not added). Dark Jedi can be the same see how I said Dark Jedi and not Sith. Sith only had 2 at one time and that is a little unbalanced. Remember going down this route is very timely so donít just rely on Jedi to save the day but if used correctly will be excellent in battle.

3) Trade as I said before you trade for credits now and not nova. Credits are needed to build everything from fighters to troops. Trading can also be done at neutral towns/cities spaceports, which are place around the map.

Hope you like feel free to edit and stuff like that. Let the flaming begin :D

Darth Windu
09-08-2003, 12:50 AM
Asking Jedi to go on a quest for you? Absolutely not.

Frankly, i consider most of the ideas here to be bad, particually having workers invisible. If you cant defend your workers, then you deserve to lose.

Also, your resource system seems rather complicated. You are basically saying 'instead of collecting raw materials we should collect raw materials'.

Frozted_MM's
09-08-2003, 07:04 AM
only some of the things food,nova,credits will be open collecting but things like metal are produced inside a factory adding to your stockpile over time. well did u c the trade federation collecting food or carbon to make there droids?

wats so complicated about this system cant u collect?

the jedi thing in there was a bit weird but i threw it in anyway. but there needs to be a new system i was gonna add a special jedi tech level where u unlock it when finding a item or something on the map perhaps a holocron but that would just be flamed as well


well if having workers invisible works when why not :p

Admiral Vostok
09-09-2003, 01:33 AM
While we didn't explicitely see workers come under attack in the movies, it would be far less realistic to make them invisible. In fact, only sending ten troopers to take out an undefended encampment is entirely within Star Wars reality - it wouldn't have taken much more than that to take out the Jawa's Sandcrawler, which is comparable to an undefended military installation.

However, I see what you mean, and I think Command Centers should be able to have a defensive attack even with no-one garrisoned in them - like in AoM. This provides a bit more protection to workers earl in the game.

For the Jedi idea I second Windu's thoughts, it is a bit silly.

The rest of the ideas I quite like. Personally I would also get rid of Nova, you just don't see it in Star Wars, but I think Carbon should still be an important resource, which can be taken from Trees and Carbon rocks as it is now.

Darth Windu
09-09-2003, 02:46 AM
Frozted - we didnt see the TF making their droids becuase they were already built! Also, just because we didnt see the TF collect food or carbon doesnt mean they didnt.

Furthermore, having metal created inside a factory is rather silly. Where, exactly, does this metal come from? It magically appears?

Personally, i see the resource system in SWGB2 going-
1. Nova - mined from the ground, delivered as Credits
2. Credits - used to buy resources/units/buildings, credits gained when resources are sold
3. Metal - mined from the ground, used is construction of Mechs/Ships/Aircraft
4. Food - kinda obvious where you get it from, used for production of Infantry, Jedi
5. Tibianna Gas - mined from Aerial deposits, necessary for aircraft to fly (no gas = aircraft are grounded)

Frozted_MM's
09-09-2003, 09:25 AM
actually the Trade fed droid army was bought cause of the extreme wealth of the Trade fed they even paid the senate there salary. So i think they bought all there minerals for there droid army and set up shop that way.
ummm and if u actually watched episode 2 we did c them being built in the factory. and with the metal ting u garrion workers in there to start it up......

the jedi thing was very rushed and if u read it i said im not even sure about it myself. but i just dont like the idea of just building them the way they r in swgb

Darth Windu
09-10-2003, 03:43 AM
Show me exactly where, in the movies, the Trade Federation pay the Senate wages and bought their Battle Droids instead of making them.

I have watched AotC many times, and i have seen the droids being built in the factory. How does that prove any of your points?

With the metal, again, where does it come from? I'd love to see someone who can build a factory anywhere in the world, hire a few workers and suddenly begin producing metal.

Admiral Vostok
09-10-2003, 11:05 AM
Actually the movie does give evidence that the Battle Droids were bought by the Trade Federation. The Geonosians build at least some of the Battle Droids, and since Dooku hints that most of the organisations who sign the treaty have standing Battle Droid armies, either they all built their own Battle Droids independent of the Geonosians (highly unlikely) or they all bought them from the Geonosians and similar forge worlds.

However for the purposes of the game I'd say it would be fine to have Battle Droids being built by the Trade Federation.

The Trade Federation doesn't, however, pay off the senate. Although in The Phantom Menace, Palpatine hints to Amidala that Valorum's aide (Mas Amedda in EU) is "on the payroll of the Trade Federation", this claim is questionable in Attack of the Clones, when Amedda is now Palpatine's aide. It seems likely that Palpatine made up the story to convince Amidala to move for a vote of no confidence. In fact, Nute Gunray's anxieties about how things will turn out in the Senate early in The Phantom Menace gives evidence that in fact very little of the Senate, if any, is under the direct control of the Federation.

Darth Windu
09-10-2003, 11:17 AM
Just because the Geonosians build weapons doesnt mean that the TF bought their Battle Droids from them. Using the real world, almost every nation builds its own weapons. An example bing Australia. We use-
- German Tanks
- American Fighters
- Austrian Rifles
- German and American Frigates

and yet ALL of them, are built in Australia. Since Australia is such a small power, i find it very, very unlikely that the Trade Federation wouldnt have its own production line of Battle Droids.

Admiral Vostok
09-11-2003, 09:07 AM
Okay, most of the time your real-world examples are kind of relevant, but this is so different to anything in the real world it isn't funny.

:atat: There is no organisation in the world comparable to the Trade Federation: they are a corporation, not a country. There is no corporation in the real world that has a standing army.

:atat: There is no army in the world with robot soldiers.

:atat: There is no equivalent of the Geonosians in the real world: an industrial country whose only export is soldiers, whether thay be robots or otherwise. They make entire armies for whoever will pay for them.

So putting aside the real world arguments, let's look at it sensibly: The Trade Federation is an immensly wealthy corporation whose only interest is making money. If they were to make their own droids they would need a facility similar to the Geonosians'. If they had this facility, they would use it to make not only droids for themselves, but also droids for sale to others (in direct competition with the Geonosians) - after all, if they sell droids as well as make them they will make more of what they love: money. We know they don't go into the business of selling droids, so they mustn't have the factories to make them. Being money-minded, they would see it is more sensible to buy from the Geonosians (who are already making and selling them) than set up expensive factories for a one-off order.

Frozted_MM's
09-11-2003, 09:52 AM
Yes its very unlikely imagine if they were to build there own facilities wouldn't the Republic question the reason why they want to start producing battle droids. They probably bought the designs and got them made by another company possibly the techno union since there are alot of similarities between the 2 droids or the geos who knows.

Darth Windu
09-12-2003, 03:11 AM
The Trade Federation control a number of worlds, and are hence a legitimate government.

Vostok - so you are saying that a government with-
- Main Battle Tanks
- Armoured Personel Carriers
- Amphibious Assault Craft
- Fighters
- Battleships
- Soldiers

BUY all of their technology? This is obviously an organisation ready for war, and only incredibly stupid people prepare for war without having their own weapons production lines.

Yes, the Geonosians make Battle Droids (although they are a different colour). How is that relevant? As we see in Ep2, many organisations have Battle Droids, the Federation being only one of such.

If you think this through logically, there is only one conclusion - that the Trade Federation have their own production line of Battle Droids.

Frozted_MM's
09-12-2003, 10:05 AM
I'm not saying they dont im just saying before the invasion of naboo they needed to keep there army very secret. But as soon as the invasion started then of course there production would be booming but lets think about it they must have shut down after the battle at naboo cause if they kept going why didnt they have a massed army if they kept production going there army would have overrun the clones without a problem.

Admiral Vostok
09-13-2003, 12:25 AM
Yes, the Geonosians make Battle Droids (although they are a different colour). How is that relevant? As we see in Ep2, many organisations have Battle Droids, the Federation being only one of such.

If you think this through logically, there is only one conclusion - that the Trade Federation have their own production line of Battle Droids.

Actually if you think it through logically the one conclusion you come to is quite different. If several different organisations have the same Battle Droids it is most likely they ALL bought them.

Think of it this way, if you need a "real-world" example, Windu: while Australia does have all those things you mentioned above, the Army itself or the Government itself does not build them per se. They are contracted to Military suppliers. The Geonosians are those Military suppliers. It is important to remember that because Droids are Droids, they fall into the same category as other mechanical military things (tanks, fighters) in that they too are built by contractors, rather than recruited as per normal troopers.

Sithmaster_821
09-13-2003, 12:46 AM
RTS games need a variety of resources to breathe. Period. This "connection to Star Wars" stuff is not relevant to a game.

Frozted_MM's
09-13-2003, 01:14 AM
we flew a little off target :rolleyes:

Darth Windu
09-13-2003, 06:15 AM
Frozted - where in the movies does it say that the Federation army was secret?

Vostok - again, no. Just because there is a single design doesnt mean they all come from the same source. With my real-world examples you are right, they are built by contractors. BUT those contractors ARE IN AUSTRALIA, BUILDING FOR AUSTRALIA.

Frozted_MM's
09-13-2003, 06:22 AM
OMG u have no idea about wat happened in that movie wat so ever u just watch it for the pretty colors?

They had to invade Naboo in secret giving them the element of surprise. Also gave them a cover in the Senate saying that they had no army and saying that these excusions there all lies. Cause if the army was beiong built in the public eye then wouldn't the Republic Question it yes they would have. The only time they had a feeling they had an army was when they created a blockade around naboo.

DK_Viceroy
09-13-2003, 02:34 PM
I agree with you on the bit about the secret army but not flaming anyone which I consider any one who does it to have ran out of good comeback's without having to resort to insults.

Also on the trade federation battle ship Obi-Wan says the bit about the invasion army in a suprised tine and also Qui-Gon says this is an unsual play for the trade federation he wouldn't have said that if everyone knew about their army. The republic also would have started to build an army if they knew about the trade federations before the battle of naboo instead of just keeping their jedi and naboo security force like army as it was instead of at least updating and expanding it a little. Before anyone says that the republic at that time had a naboo like arny is EU. How come the senate didn't send it to naboo you then find out in ep 2 that the republic hasn't had a standing army in several thousand years. Wouldn't logic dictate that they would have had to have a security force or they would be raided by pirates and propably invaded by hostile worlds.

DK_Viceroy
09-13-2003, 02:41 PM
About The Battle Droids in ep 2 being a different colour if you look at the production line inside you see they are ep 1 coloured but when you see them outside they are a reddy orange colour. Geonosis is a rock sand world I know what happoens before the droids leave the production lines but that would be EU even though it's obvious that they would be tested. the reddy sand would get on the battle droids changing their colour and if you watch ep 2 closely on some of the droids you'll see stripes of the ep 1 colour showing through because some sand has been knocked off. and the Trade Federation DID buy that army they bought it from several foundries i beleive it was either Baktor or the Hallor Chall foudry companies.

Sithmaster_821
09-13-2003, 08:24 PM
dude, for the love of god, please don't double post! You make these threads take up enough space as is, but if you'd just edit your posts, we wouldn't have to scoll through your entire sig twice!

Frozted_MM's
09-14-2003, 06:47 AM
The new red orange droids were for the effects being in a desert hint hint* but i like the new red-orange color anyways looks more effective on screen wouldn't mind seeing those batte droids in the confed army with a new make over.

Admiral Vostok
09-14-2003, 07:45 AM
I thought they just appeared red-orange because of Geonosis' sun. The whole world is bathed in a red-orange light and I just assumed it was this that changed the Battle Droid's apparent colour. On the production line they are the same as Episode I.

Windu, the fact remains that the Trade Federation is not in the business of building military equipment. If they had the facilities to build their own droids, their love of extra money would keep them running these facilities to make more Battle Droids for sale. We know they don't do this, so I can only logically conclude they don't have the facilities.

Frozted_MM's
09-14-2003, 09:26 AM
No ummmmmm I think it was on the DVD comentary one of the producers or maybe even lucas himself said they have a new reddy texture to them to fit the new environment. Yea they just gave them a new paint job nothing extreme.

I totally agree with u Admiral 100% they don't have there own facilities it's like the Jedi they don't have there own cloning facilities but they still command the army and run the show. That's the easiest way I can explain it.

Darth Windu
09-15-2003, 09:18 AM
Frozted - at NO point does anyone say the Federation's Army is secret. Yes, they did invade in secret, so what? Also, the Fed senator doesnt say the claim about an army is false, only that the invasion is false.
Finally, if the Federation's Army was secret, why would Captain Panaka say that it is the BATTLE-HARDENED FEDERATION ARMY?

Viceroy - they were suprised because the Federation were going to invade Naboo - an illegal action from the weak Neimodians (remember the bloackade was legal), not because of the existance of that army

Vostok -
1. Starfighters
2. Battleships
3. Main Battle Tanks
4. Armoured Personel Carrier's
5. Armed Scouts
6. Amphibious Assault Craft
7. Infantry

...no, that doesnt look like an army at all...

Frozted_MM's
09-15-2003, 09:32 AM
Well of course after they invaded there army was revealed but why in the hell would a peace keeping force like the Jedi let them build this army if they had no reason 2. Just build it out of the blue to protect who from what there was no threat against them. The captain said that after they invaded the whole frigging army strolled through theed for crying out loud who could miss that its just a droid army parade. And he was captured by them then held as hostage.

I respect for views but i think my answers are a little more backed up no offence.

Admiral Vostok
09-16-2003, 06:07 AM
Frozted - the reason the Trade Federation army has been allowed to exist is due to bribery and bureaucracy within the senate. Panaka's comment about the Federation Army being "battle-hardened" proves that the army is not a surprise. I mean, Panaka says this before they even start the invasion and reveal any army!

Windu - :eyeraise: WTF? When did I say they had no army? I said they were not in the army building business, not that they had no army!

Frozted_MM's
09-16-2003, 07:02 AM
even if it wasnt secret wat has it got to prove about wat i posted in the 1st place?

Darth Windu
09-16-2003, 12:42 PM
Vostok - what i meant was if they wereny army builders, how could they have an army that well equipped (and experienced)?

Frozted - i think you will find my view is backed up by the facts, as Vostok pointed out. In addition to Panaka's comment, look at the battle-scoring on the fed army vehicles.

DK_Viceroy
09-16-2003, 01:30 PM
I don't think it would quite be battle scoring on them maybe from combat training and droid incompatence that's why in my Civilisation Analogy i'm making i'm making them less able to dodge. Also there would have been some army units attacking them on there way in. I beleive though that the republic weren't army builders either but they got a fullt equipped army it seems that people are learning what i already knew. That You Can BUY AN ARMY in the star wars universe.

Admiral Vostok
09-17-2003, 04:53 AM
Vostok - what i meant was if they wereny army builders, how could they have an army that well equipped (and experienced)?
They bought it. Just like Viceroy said, this is something you can do in the Star Wars Universe.

Another thing Viceroy said: that the battle-scoring could have come from training. This is what the EU claims; the EU says the army was kept secret until Naboo as Frozted believes. As this is contradicted by the movies, this is another piece of evidence condemning EU. Having said that it is still possible the scoring was made during training, but just thought I'd comment...

Darth Windu
09-17-2003, 04:56 AM
Viceroy - you do realise that Armies dont shoot at each other with live ammo during training exercies right?

Also, the Republic arent army builders, but it took 10 years to get one! Not good if you need it in a hurry.

Vostok - and if their Army was that experienced, obviously they are army builders.

Admiral Vostok
09-17-2003, 05:12 AM
Vostok - and if their Army was that experienced, obviously they are army builders.
Please explain you logic here. Just because they build it themselves it's more experienced? What if they buy it then use it a lot?

Darth Windu
09-17-2003, 06:16 AM
- Well, since their Army is 'battle-hardened', it has been used a lot.
- For it to have been used a lot, it would have had to have been around for quite some time.
- If the Trade Fed use their Army a lot, and have had it for a long time, obviously, they are army builders.

In addition to this, logic dictates that a society with a standing military force will have the necessary production lines to keep that military equipped and re-inforced.

Frozted_MM's
09-17-2003, 07:55 AM
The trade Federation bought there army simple if they had production facilities on there home planet why didn't the clones go and attack it?

They bought the army and got another corporation to start production the trade federation is based around money.

saberhagen
09-17-2003, 09:42 AM
IIRC it says in the databank at starwars.com that the TF did buy their battle droids and it even names the company that supplied them. The droidekas were made by someone else (some insect like race who modelled them on themselves). I think it also says that droid armies weren't banned until after the battle of Naboo, but that several organisations continued making them. I'm not sure if this agrees entirely with the films, as the Geonosians were shown making TF style battle droids (and incidentally, we all know that in AOTC the Republic DID invade Geonosis and occupy the droid making facilities).

As for the "battle hardened" thing, I suspect that was a cliche inserted into the script without much thought, just because they thought it sounded good. When you think about it, how can a droid gain experience? Especially if it is slaved to a computer on the command ship and has no capability of independent thought.

Another thing, even if the TF didn't normally invade planets you would expect them to have a military force to protect their trade routes/facilities from pirates, smugglers, hostile aliens etc.

DK_Viceroy
09-17-2003, 03:54 PM
I wasn't using EU i'm keeping most of that in my Civilisation Analogy which i'm doing off line and will post the entire thing on at the same time so no one will be left with a cliff hanger. For the battle scoring i thought it would have been obviuos that they would have done training. Windu i'm sorry to burst your bubble but the star wars universe is not the same as our universe as other people have pointed out the physics for lightspeed is all wrong. The star wars universe is completly seperate from this universe with it's own rules and sets of boundries and is therefore not comparable to anything in this universe. To do so would be a repetive cliche that everyone has an answer to.

Admiral Vostok
09-18-2003, 12:02 AM
- If the Trade Fed use their Army a lot, and have had it for a long time, obviously, they are army builders.
This bit makes no sense. You could equally say, as I do:
- If the Trade Fed use their Army a lot, and have had it for a long time, obviously, they bought it a long time ago.

Saberhagen: The droids can gain experience. In Star Wars, most droids are just like sentient beings, only with metallic bodies. And although the Battle Droids are all controlled by a central computer, they don't share the same conciousness - think of it as they all have seperate brains but all the brains are remote from their bodies. This is evidenced by the need for Commander Battle Droids - like OOM-9. If they all shared one conciousess Commander Battle Droids would not be necessary. They also wouldn't need to talk to each other ("Check it out Corporal, we'll cover you!" "Roger roger!") as the single-brain would know how to co-ordinate itself automatically.

Darth Windu
09-18-2003, 01:46 AM
Frozted - during WW2, as soon as the war broke out why didnt the British attack the factories producing German Tanks, Aircraft etc?

Saber - that's all EU

Vostok - ok, think of it this way. If you were in control of a huge corporation, and wanted an army, would you boost someone else's economy by buying it, or boost your own by building it?

Darth Windu
09-18-2003, 02:08 AM
Frozted - during WW2, as soon as the war broke out why didnt the British attack the factories producing German Tanks, Aircraft etc?

Saber - that's all EU

Vostok - ok, think of it this way. If you were in control of a huge corporation, and wanted an army, would you boost someone else's economy by buying it, or boost your own by building it?

Admiral Vostok
09-18-2003, 02:25 AM
I'd boost my own by building it, if it was as simple as that. The only way building my own army would boost my economy is if I kept building more armies to sell to others. Since the Trade Federation don't do this, we can only assume they chose the cheaper option of buying the army and boosting someone else's economy.

Frozted_MM's
09-18-2003, 09:52 AM
Thats why they probably selected a really unknown corporation so they couldn't resist seeing it could open up some many chances in there business.

saberhagen
09-18-2003, 09:56 AM
I don't necessarily believe any of that, I was just pointing you all towards a potentially relevant source and I did include the qualification that it might not agree with the films.

Again I think the battle droids talk to each other and say things like "roger roger" just because producers/scriptwriters thought it would be cool. It doesn't necessarily make any sense.

I was under the impression that while OOM-9 had some independence the normal battle droids didn't have any at all, but I could be wrong. As I've said before, there are no facts because it's all fiction. Even real history doesn't have any absolute truth -you have to form an opinion based on incomplete and sometimes contradictory sources.

Taking it further though, experience in the case of battle droids and their command computer would only relate to their AI learning better tactics. With humans the most important role of battle experience is to overcome fear, and I think we all agree that battle droids are completely unable to experience fear (despite them occasionally saying "oh-oh" when things go wrong).

Darth Windu
09-18-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
I'd boost my own by building it, if it was as simple as that.
1. The only way building my own army would boost my economy is if I kept building more armies to sell to others.
2. Since the Trade Federation don't do this, we can only assume they chose the cheaper option of buying the army and boosting someone else's economy.

1. Actually, by building your own Army, you are able to use your own sources of labour (if required), do not have to pay for materials for another builder, and do not have to pay for transport costs. In addition, you gain experience in buyilding a military and have a source of production that is completely under your own control.

2. Vostok, beware the dark side. If you choose the quick, easy and EU path, as Corran has, you will become an agent of EUvil.
How do you know the TF doesnt build droids? Do any of the movies tell you? No. Even though the Geonosians build droids, many different organisations use them, so it is more than likely the TF build their own.

Frozted_MM's
09-18-2003, 10:28 AM
well how do u know they do looks like u are the EUvil one :D

Admiral Vostok
09-18-2003, 10:50 AM
Windu, stop ignoring the fact that they aren't selling droids. If they had the facilities they would be doing so.

Also I think you forget your place. Am I not the Lord of Purists? You're lucky I don't cast you out of the sect of Purism with your Yuuzhan Vong thread... I am using knowledge purely from the movies, not EU. If the Trade Federation were building Battle Droids, I hardly think they'd be considering signing a treaty with Geonosians, who are their marketplace competitors...

DK_Viceroy
09-18-2003, 09:45 PM
You lot shpould give it a rest all EU has a basis of fact in it it's like saying the Corporate Alliance Tank Droid is EU because it was in a deleted scene or saying what a units name is even though it wasn't mentioned in the film by this film's nature any clear cut definitions you have are wrong with star wars and what you call EU there is no clear cut line it is very blurred.

Admiral Vostok
09-19-2003, 05:24 AM
Viceroy, when will you learn? There is a clear cut: stuff in the movies is canon, stuff not in the movies is EU. If you can sit in front of the movie and find something out, it's canon. If you need to go look up a databank or something it is not. So yes, the Corporate Alliance Tank is EU even though it was almost in the movie: "almost" isn't good enough. And as for characters names, if their name isn't said in the movies and isn't in the credits then their name is EU, which I don't care about since if they aren't in the credits they're hardly significant, are they? To some people, the line is not blurred at all.

Frozted_MM's
09-19-2003, 05:53 AM
EU is not fact most of it changes the story line altogether its not apart of the true SW storyline.

Darth Windu
09-21-2003, 12:56 PM
Vostok - im shocked.
1. No film states that the TF doesnt sell Battle Droids, you are assuming it

2. They DONT make an alliance with the Geonosians, they ally with the Comerce Guild, Banking Clan etc as the Confederacy of Independant Systems, and at no point is it mentioned that the Geonosians belong to the confederacy.

Frozted_MM's
09-21-2003, 10:44 PM
DUDE!!!!!!!!!!

I cant believe u said that there leader provided there planet for droid facilities and your telling us they didnt make an alliance.

Admiral Vostok
09-21-2003, 11:53 PM
Okay, while many things aren't explicitely stated in the movies, we can certainly assume them using logic and not any EU. So here's a few things you may have overlooked, Windu:

:atat: It would appear that although Geonosis isn't a major signatory to the Confederacy, they are in fact under the control of the Techno Union and therefore are officially part of the Confederacy through the Techno Union's involvement. I'm taking this from the Techno Union dude's comment: "With these new Battle Droids we built for you, you'll have the finest army in the galaxy". Obviously the Techno Union runs the droid factories on Geonosis.

:atat: Geonosis has huge landing sites for the Trade Federation's Starship Core. If the Trade Federation was building and selling Battle Droids it would be highly against the Geonosian nature to accomodate a business rival. Clearly these landing bays are to assist in the delivery of droid armies to the Federation, as well as making reinforcement supplies easier.

Some asides that aren't entirely relevant to our argument:
:atat: By the end of Attack of the Clones the Trade Federation does still not officially belong to the Confederacy. Nute Gunray states in one scene "what about the Senator from Naboo? I'm not signing anything until I have her head on my desk." If he sticks to this statement, it seems unlikely the Trade Federation will ever formally join the Confederacy, and will instead continue in an informal alliance. This may also be why we didn't see any MTTs or AATs during the Battle of Geonosis.

:atat: I didn't pick up on Viceroy's statement before about the Trade Federation buying the army from the factories of Hallor Chall or something. This information is another example of EU contradictions: the source of this information also claimed Droidekas were built by a seperate company to the other Battle Droids, which we know to be untrue from AotC as we see Droideka parts being assembled. And while it is possible that Hallor Chall is another Forge World like Geonosis also under the Techno Union's control, it wouldn't make sense to have the Federation Starship landing bays on Geonosis if they hadn't taken the delivery of their army their.

DK_Viceroy
09-22-2003, 06:10 AM
Actually Another company doesn't build them it's a common misconception about those who do not yet know the truth. The Droidekas were only designed by the Collicoids not built by them them just made the designs in exchange for their payment. After the invasion of naboo the senate passed legislation cutting back on battledroid production by all KNOWN foundries by puting a limit on how many couild be built. So the trade federation had to go look for a SECRET foundry and found it on GEONOSIS.

Admiral Vostok
09-22-2003, 06:30 AM
Oh okay, well I guess that isn't so contradictory.

Frozted_MM's
09-22-2003, 06:43 AM
NO way nute gunray stayed with the Confed if he left who would protect him a bunch of rubble lying in the arena?

lol viceroy collects fact file wat else does fact file say :P

saberhagen
09-22-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
There is a clear cut: stuff in the movies is canon, stuff not in the movies is EU. If you can sit in front of the movie and find something out, it's canon. If you need to go look up a databank or something it is not.


That's a nice clear cut definition in theory, but in practice it can become absurd. For example: AT-ATs. We all know what an AT-AT is, we've seen them in the films, so they must be canon, right? Well, actually the name AT-AT is never mentioned anywhere in any of the films which means that by your definition it's EU. The only time anyone refers to them by name is a rebel soldier who calls them "Imperial walkers". I can't remember any explicit mention of the words TIE fighter, although I could be wrong. I'm fairly certain that TIE bombers and interceptors aren't mentioned by name.

On the rebel side, we don't know that those new fighters in ROTJ are called A-Wings and B-Wings or that Admiral Ackbar is a Mon Calamari. The TF vehicles (AAT, MTT, STAP) are similarly unnamed in the films. And we don't even know what those annoying furry creatures from the forest moon of Endor are called...

Splitting hairs even further, there's nothing in the OT films or credits to say that the Emperor's name is Palpatine, although it was common knowledge at the time. Strictly speaking (and that definition is very strict) the idea that Palpatine becomes the Emperor is currently EU and will be until EpIII comes out.

Darth Windu
09-22-2003, 10:39 AM
Vostok - 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. The TF was hostile to the Republic, as was the Techno Union. When the Republic landed on Geonosis, both found themselves on the same side, and would have put economic differences behind them in order to defeat their common enemy - the Republic and the Jedi.

You have still yet to show any conclusive evidence that i'm wrong about the TF building their own droids.

Admiral Vostok
09-23-2003, 07:03 AM
Windu - once again you've done your famous "over-looking hard evidence". What of my notes about the Federation Starship landing bays? Clearly this indicates that Geonosis and the Trade Federation have a history going back before the battle, and the only reason to accomodate the Federation in such a way would be to facilitate army delivery.

saberhagen - all you say is true (except that TIE Fighter is mentioned in the movies and Ewoks is written in the credits). All the rest is, by my definition, EU. This is why I divide EU into sub categories. Have a look here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105793&perpage=40&pagenumber=2) for more information. Basically what I'm saying is that just because it is EU doesn't mean it isn't generally accepted as being "correct".

I might add that in the near future I'm going to get fairly academic about EU and Star Wars, and perfect my theories, then publish them on my website, which I hope to become the beacon for anti-EU sentiments.

saberhagen
09-23-2003, 09:24 AM
Oh, I'm disappointed. I thought that would really annoy you... ;)

Darth Windu
09-25-2003, 10:20 AM
Vostok - what point about TF starship bays? As i have said Vostok, there is NO, repeat, NO evidence that the TF doesnt build their own droids, and from a military and economic point-of-view, it would be stupid of them not to.

Admiral Vostok
09-25-2003, 11:12 AM
While it's true that there is no evidence, it just makes better sense the other way.

My point about the landing bays is that if the Trade Federation doesn't buy their droids from Geonosis, what is the purpose of installing special landing bays for their starships?

lukeiamyourdad
09-25-2003, 08:37 PM
For god sakes I've been gone for a week and this is still going on?!
Shouldn't you put your energy into the possible new game instead of this small detail that nobody f*****' cares except the both of you?!
How is this gonna affect the game huh?!
HOW?!

Admiral Vostok
09-26-2003, 12:03 AM
Hey I'm commited to the game. Have you read the latest installment of Vostok's SWGB2?

As I'm sure you're aware, Luke's Dad, I love discussing minor details of the movies like this. And I'm quite sure Windu does too. Sorry about the destruction of this thread and all but that's what we do.

Darth Windu
09-26-2003, 09:50 AM
Yeah, what he said. I'm still working on my SWGB2 idea, and this argument is between Vostok and myself, i dont see how it hurts anyone else on the board.

Getting back to the forementioned argument...

Actually Vostok, it makes better Military and Economic sense for the TF to buiild their own droids, also, the large hanger bays for the TF battleships are for an Amphibious Assault. I'm sure that if you had a look at, say, a Wasp-class you would see that the lower decks are packed with Armoured Vehicles, light vehicles, landing craft etc. That is the point of the bays, not for recieving droid deliveries.

Frozted_MM's
09-26-2003, 01:30 PM
dont worry im sure both of there ideas will clash :D and the fighting continues

Admiral Vostok
09-27-2003, 05:00 AM
No Windu, you misunderstand me. On the surface of Geonosis, there are huge circular pits that the detached Federation Starship Cores land in. I question the presence of these pits if your theory is to be believed.

Also, if one of your allies builds and sells the military supplies you need, and you are not a manufacturing corporation yourself, why the hell would you waste the money to set up your own facilities?

Darth Windu
09-27-2003, 05:28 AM
And how do you know they arent a manufacturing corp?

Also, the pit's could have just been to hide the presence of the TF battleships of Geonosis from sensors or something - ask lucas.

Admiral Vostok
09-27-2003, 06:04 AM
And how do you know they arent a manufacturing corp?Because they are called the Trade Federation. Really Windu I would have thought even you could figure that one out.

Also, the pit's could have just been to hide the presence of the TF battleships of Geonosis from sensors or something - ask lucas.Apart from the fact that this is unlikely due to the fact that it in no way hid their presence at all, it still contradicts your theory. According to your theory the Trade Federation are in direct competition with the Geonosians because they both build Battle Droids. Why would the Geonosians go out of their way to build special facilities to accomodate them?

saberhagen
09-27-2003, 10:06 AM
It could be that the TF ships are actually a generic type which are used by other civs/orgsaniations as well. If you maintain that the TF buy their droids rather than building them, wouldn't they buy their space ships as well?

Darth Windu
09-27-2003, 11:41 PM
Vostok - so what if they are called the Trade Federation, that doesnt preclude them from building things as well.

Also, i dont recall ever seeing anything about droid deliveries to those battleships in Ep2, i might ask at the official website why the BB's were on the ground...

Admiral Vostok
09-28-2003, 01:18 AM
Saberhagen - it's possible yet unlikely considering everytime a character sees them they say "there's an unusual concentration of Federation Ships" or "attack those Federation Starship". They would no doubt be known by a more generic name than "Federation Starship".

Windu - You do that, but since all of the EU literature (post AotC) surrounding the Trade Federation says they bought it from the Geonosians I hardly think they'll tell you differently.

And the Trade Federation might manufacture some things, but that doesn't make them a "manufacturing corp". Their primary concern is trade and it would be very uncharactersitic of the Neimoidians to branch out into droid sales.

Also what does BB stand for? I know you mean the Federation Starship, but I can't think of any name for them that would be "BB".

Darth Windu
09-28-2003, 02:34 AM
Vostok - i meant i was going to ask why Lucas had them sitting on the ground.

With Trading, Manufacturing and such, we dont know anything about how the TF conducts buisness, so either of us could theoretically be right.

As for the 'BB' thing - my bad, it's the military abbreviation for Battleship.

Admiral Vostok
09-28-2003, 10:31 AM
Yes I encourage you to ask, but they will most likely report back with the EU explanation, since it doesn't conflict with the movie. That is that they are getting new droids delivered. If you have access to the Incredible Cross-sections book, take a look, it says it in there. Although it is EU, and they get it wrong in a few places, it is still a good reference and enjoyable read.

DK_Viceroy
09-28-2003, 06:58 PM
I agree Luke who built the Trade Federations army is not even significant since by their reckoning to say they built it is eu and they didn't build it is eu also which brings me back to the blurred line parody who built the army is of no matter. I hardly imagine that people are going to want to know that and if they did it should be dabated AFTER everything else for the game is done and keep all this time wasting for a databank. However they may be just using this as a smokescreen to get their ideas finished, By the way windu I saw your idea and it's pretty good one thing i noticed though for the yuzzhan vong they didn;'t used shamed ones to build their structures they used shapers the shamed ones gather resources it would add diversity if the shamed one was the gatherer and shaper the builder. The warriors were really all purpose and Rocket warrior wouldn't exist remeber they destroy technology they hate technolgy they wouldn't use a machine to help them in theiur quest for galactic domination they would use thudbugs and razor bugs instead of rockets.