PDA

View Full Version : RAVEN: 1st person Q to anyone on the dev team if any here


Bad_karma_2one
09-11-2003, 10:35 PM
In the demo there is no otion to select 1st person or 3rd person lightsabre view as there was in JK2:JO, I have to say i got used to the 1st person view and really liked it, why has this option been removed, will it be in the final version or will it be in a patch, or is there something i can type into the console to activate it.

I really dont want responces from ppl saying that 1st person lightsabre view is crap, I LIKE IT, so is there any way to enable it

StormHammer
09-11-2003, 10:50 PM
I would say that if it's not in the demo, then it is unlikely to be in the full game. The demo seems to be pretty 'feature complete'. I think that perhaps with the range of new moves and customisation options for your character that it may have been too difficult to implement 1st person sabers effectively.

It would be good to hear word from the devs on this one, though.

Bad_karma_2one
09-11-2003, 10:51 PM
The thing is, there is probably a way to do it through the console though, just need to know what to type

Kurgan
09-11-2003, 10:53 PM
Don't lose all hope just yet guys... there IS a console cvar called CG_FPLS " 1 ".

In JK2, this cvar only worked in multiplayer, but it did work (at least in 1.04 it did). So perhaps it may also work in MP in JA.


Similarly, the dismemberment adjustment cvar(s) are disabled in the demo, but obviously will be usable in the full version.

Unless the devs say "No, it's not in there" I'm going to assume that there's a way to enable it in the full version. Would be nice to know for sure though. That will be one of the first things I try when I get the game. ; )

Chuahtemoc
09-11-2003, 10:59 PM
The saber staff and the dual lightsabers would be hard to use in first person, considering the fact that you need extra manueverability and it makest two-on-ones more realistic.

i mean in JO i used to win two on one battles all the time, however, it didnt look so realistic to have one guy slashing away at me while i turn to the other guy, in the essence i should have died in one stroke. however, a volley of force pushing, grips, and the like, two on ones were okay-ish. Now, with two sabers or two ends of a saber, you can have pretty good looking two on ones. :) they wouldnt look good in first, now, would they? lol

I see how you can get used to that sort of thing, though, i'm not making fun of you or anything.

Kurgan
09-11-2003, 11:17 PM
All FPLS 1 did in JK2 MP was put the camera in more or less the same spot that it was for the guns.

This would make no difference for the Dual or Saberstaff sabers, except it would have a different "feel" to it, since you'd have to get used to not seeing the animations for the moves happening (you'd just feel like you were running/strafing or jumping but your view would stay centered).

Where it would come in handy, would be for taking screenshots, or for blocking blaster shots (many have already complained about how it seems harder to block with the non-single sabers).

Plus some people just prefer it, and if they use single saber primarily (or dual sabers or saberstaff with one blade turned off) why not?

It's sort of like Guns in third person. Who honestly plays like that anyway? It's much easier to use guns in first person mode. So why not just remove third person guns? I mean, by the same logic.

Spider AL
09-12-2003, 12:51 AM
It's sort of like Guns in third person. Who honestly plays like that anyway? It's much easier to use guns in first person mode. So why not just remove third person guns? I mean, by the same logic.Back in the days of JK1, most really skilled players used guns in third person mode. Force powers are much easier to use in a wider field of vision. And one got pretty accurate after a while, so much so that first person felt restrictive. One can carry this over to JK2, and no doubt to JA. And one gets a crosshair in third, in these games. Something that wasn't in JK1.

That's why not, tbh. :p

Chuahtemoc
09-12-2003, 12:55 AM
hell yeah. I play in third with guns all the time, man. I love the fact that you have the wide view of everything around you PLUS the sensitivity is higher in third. i mean, everything feels more responsive . you have the ability to charge your shot, do a flip and release in mid-air. not only is it a hot as hell effect, its a great fakeout and i used to do it all the time with my trusty bryar back in JK2. So i'm all for guns in third.

Prime
09-12-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
It's sort of like Guns in third person. Who honestly plays like that anyway? It's much easier to use guns in first person mode. So why not just remove third person guns? I mean, by the same logic. If the targeting recticle was accurate in third person, I'd definitely play that way. As long as you could point and fire, there really isn't much difference between the two.

Kurgan
09-12-2003, 02:32 AM
Back in the days of JK1, most really skilled players used guns in third person mode. Force powers are much easier to use in a wider field of vision. And one got pretty accurate after a while, so much so that first person felt restrictive. One can carry this over to JK2, and no doubt to JA. And one gets a crosshair in third, in these games. Something that wasn't in JK1.

That's why not, tbh.

I disagree. The "wider field of view" you speak of was totally irrelevant, since you could use Force Seeing with the Map to see the positions of EVERYONE on the map, thus negating any usefulness of seeing two extra feet around you.

That and the lack of a crosshair in third person mode (I know, I know you could Zoom the overlay map to max to make a makeshift crosshair) made it less useful than first person for guns, and I wasn't a bad player in my prime either. ; )

And finally, unlike JK2 and JA where the powers are mostly "gunlike" in their execution (ie: tap the button and it "happens"), the JK1 and MotS powers were "lock on" type powers. That is, you'd hold the key when they were in your field of view and a pulsating color coded circle would appear on them when they were within range. Releasing the key in time (before they got out of range or use a countering power) triggered the power.

This is how Blind, Pull, Push (MotS), Grip, Throw, Chain Lightning (MotS), all worked. Thus in first person mode it was far easier to get the "sweet spot" for targeting I felt. It was also (like in JK2) easier to block blaster bolts from this perspective.

I only knew of one or two people who preferred guns in 3rd person (for the reasons you mentioned actually) and the same number of people who preferred 1st person saber (for purposes of immersion and realism).

Spider AL
09-12-2003, 03:21 AM
I disagree. The "wider field of view" you speak of was totally irrelevant, since you could use Force Seeing with the Map to see the positions of EVERYONE on the map, thus negating any usefulness of seeing two extra feet around you.You may disagree all you like, but the fact remains that having a wider perspective allowed one to execute grip and other such locks on the fly more effectively. That was how it STARTED. Players like myself soon learned the inherent value of having a wide perspective, however. One has an eye on one's opponents more of the time. One has greater reference points in the world around one. One is more able to judge distance in terms of attacking range, jumping range and level. One has an eye on one's opponents vertical disposition in the area around one. The map was fine, but poor in terms of reporting where one's foes were on the z-axis. And since JO didn't HAVE a map, that made third personing that much more important. ;)

That and the lack of a crosshair in third person mode (I know, I know you could Zoom the overlay map to max to make a makeshift crosshair) made it less useful than first person for guns, and I wasn't a bad player in my prime either. ; )Heh, I have no doubt that you were a good player, Kurgan. Quite frankly though, the best players I knew went without crosshairs. (and without zooming to max, which would defeat the point of the overlay map in high level games, wouldn't it) Crosshairs are an irrelevance when aiming and firing becomes instinctive, which it does at the highest levels. I managed to master that after a bare few games. Truly, the crosshair is a pointless crutch, much easier to get rid of than most people would realise.

This is how Blind, Pull, Push (MotS), Grip, Throw, Chain Lightning (MotS), all worked. Thus in first person mode it was far easier to get the "sweet spot" for targeting I felt. It was also (like in JK2) easier to block blaster bolts from this perspective.Blocking blaster bolts? Rarely happened in MP. As to your lockon point, the angular range of the lockon was greater than the reticle often made it appear. In third person one could flash a grip on out of the corner of one's eye faster than fun. Your assertion that first person made lockons easier is simply untrue, quite the opposite. One rarely had to face directly towards one's foe to get a lockon, and most high speed maneuvers made such orientation undesirable. Why I could tell you tales of BGJ FF... ahhh. Those were the days.

I only knew of one or two people who preferred guns in 3rd person (for the reasons you mentioned actually) and the same number of people who preferred 1st person saber (for purposes of immersion and realism).As I've mentioned earlier, the very good players that I was aware of played in third. Certainly I knew of players that played in first. Some of my best friends played in first. Until I showed them what third was capable of.

First = Immersion? Hmm. That reminds me of a lad I once spoke to, he was using Tavion as his skin. I asked him, why did he use the skin of a woman when he was in fact a man? Not that there was anything wrong with it, I was merely curious, as I like to use male skins myself, as I am a male. He said that he didn't like looking at Kyle's bottom waving around in front of him all the time. Hmm, I thought, there is such a thing as getting TOO involved with a game...

But you want immersion? Fine and dandy. However, First Person = Inferior view? A resounding yes! I certainly wouldn't be up in arms if joystick support was removed from JA. It would perhaps encourage some silly people to change to a better control system. Likewise, the lack of first person sabres is a good thing. Now all they have to do is remove first person guns...

Kurgan
09-12-2003, 04:04 AM
Hey, SA, I know we both love to debate, but it's late, so I'm not at my best, I hope you don't mind. ; )

You may disagree all you like, but the fact remains that having a wider perspective allowed one to execute grip and other such locks on the fly more effectively.

The map gave you the widest possible perspective, which was my point. You couldn't execute grip behind your back could you?


One has an eye on one's opponents more of the time.

Map.

One has greater reference points in the world around one.

Map. Plus your visual range is obstructed partially by your body anyway, a trade off to see partially behind your back.


One is more able to judge distance in terms of attacking range, jumping range and level.

For Jumping yes, although using first person mode you learn the proper timing anyway with practice. Years of playing FPS games with no first person mode will do that for you. Granted, years of playing console games in third person view alone may give you similar practice with the other aspect.


One has an eye on one's opponents vertical disposition in the area around one.


Only to a very limited extent on the sides and directly behind you, as I mentioned. Seeing+Map already allows you to know everyone's position relative to you on the map and what direction they are facing at any given time.


The map was fine, but poor in terms of reporting where one's foes were on the z-axis.

I agree, it only showed one "floor" at a time, the one you were on. But then using third person view didn't tell you if people were below you did it? All it would tell you is if somebody was trying to sneak up directly behind you or parallel to you on the sides (and if you used Seeing+Map you would already know they were coming up long before they got that close.


And since JO didn't HAVE a map, that made third personing that much more important.

I agree, that third person viewpoint is much more useful in JK2 and JA. Primarily because of the lack of a map feature, and because of the third person crosshair addition. The acrobatic moves are a little easier to "follow" when you're in third person, although with practice a person can learn to time it correctly with 1st person just as well (so I'm told).

I'm a traditionalist, I play sabers in third person, guns in first. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use what works best for YOU, which I think is the entire point here.

On the one hand, it's been argued that first person sabers are "useless" and therefore it's a good thing that Raven nixed them (we're assuming they were nixed for the sake of argument... if the demo is a hint), whereas I argued that that's like saying third person guns are useless.

So in a sense, you're arguing FOR my point, because you're making a case that a seemingly little used feature is actually considered preferable to certain people.

I can see Raven's point of not using First Person Lightsaber from a purely aesthetic perspective.

Why go to all the trouble of creating lots of flashy, cool animations of players flipping around and doing all kinds of matrix crap, if nobody will ever see it because they are in first person mode? And you can't make the camera spin around and make people throw up. Enough people already don't like the "view bob" that they publicized how to turn that off.

THAT, I can understand. That and, they have all these wonderful customizable skins, but they didn't want to put in an equal number of headless or semi-transparent versions of each one (what a pain that would be) so they just made it Kyle's hands, which again, removes the possiblity of you seeing all the wonderful skin work they did. So as a showpiece of the artwork, the third person viewpoint should be encouraged as much as possible from their perspective.

I'm not saying you're wrong, obviously. ; )


Heh, I have no doubt that you were a good player, Kurgan. Quite frankly though, the best players I knew went without crosshairs.

See, that's what I don't understand. Why is turning off your crosshair a sign of superior skill? Because it's a "crutch"?

Real life firearms have what are commonly referred to as "iron sights" (because they're part of the metalwork of the gun). A person is expected to use them to sight along the barrel as an aide for targetting.

Now it may be impressive to see a person firing their gun accurately without using the iron sights, but isn't that their purpose? It was not as if crosshair = autoaim (I never used autoaim, it just annoyed me).

The point about the map crosshair was just an old trick somebody mentioned once... if you zoomed the map to max, the little red indicator that represented you would be centered on the screen, and in third person mode, this was just about right to use as a crosshair.

I never used it myself, and in fact that is why I asked why would anybody use it, and the person told me that they came up with it because they wanted to use third person all the time.


Crosshairs are an irrelevance when aiming and firing becomes instinctive, which it does at the highest levels.

I imagine so. Likewise there are people who can shoot targets blindfolded or behind their backs. With sufficient practice a person can become skilled at just about anything if they are willing to put in the time and effort.

Sort of like how people could become good players with 1000 pings. ; )

I managed to master that after a bare few games. Truly, the crosshair is a pointless crutch, much easier to get rid of than most people would realise.

See my example about the iron sights. Notice how when you use the Disruptor Rifle (or the ST Rifle Scope in MotS) it forces you into a first person perspective. Because those weapons are about accuracy.

With third person view, you're more likely to rely on weapons with splash damage (shooting somebody with the concussion rifle in JK wasn't too hard, the blast radius was so big) or waste ammo by "sweeping" your shots into place. With first person, you can just point and shoot with far less adjustment. Blocking blaster shots happens a lot, and you can line it up just perfectly as you move in for the kill.

I liked how in JK you could switch from first to third on the fly, but the game was designed with the idea that you would use first person all the time, with a special option to allow third person auto camera for the saber. This was a hint that the developers felt that many people would like the third person lightsaber and they did. JK2 retained the ability to choose, but we lost it in Multiplayer (until the Cvar command was revealed).

Now suddenly we lose first person saber again in Single Player (and first person for melee is lost as well).

And anyway, what about people who prefer the "Immersion factor" of first person view?


Blocking blaster bolts? Rarely happened in MP.
Ha! If you ever used the lightsaber in FF guns games, you'd have blocked a few bolts in your time. I certainly blocked my share!

In CTF games it would happen quite often. Lots of people would charge a saberist with their guns blazing, because of the fact that you could get through if you were to land a crotch shot or use the secondary repeater. Thus blocking bolts was essential (until you could get close enough to pull or do other Force nastiness to them).. that is unless you had a gun to switch to and blast them.

Don't get me wrong, sabers didn't quite have the versatility we've come to expect in JK2/JA in Free For All combat, but there were still plenty of people who used saber only (and MotS made this far more common).


As to your lockon point, the angular range of the lockon was greater than the reticle often made it appear. In third person one could flash a grip on out of the corner of one's eye faster than fun.


So you're saying a person could lock on with grip behind their back? Or as you were running by? There's a subtle distinction here, I just wanted you to clarify.


Your assertion that first person made lockons easier is simply untrue, quite the opposite. One rarely had to face directly towards one's foe to get a lockon, and most high speed maneuvers made such orientation undesirable. Why I could tell you tales of BGJ FF... ahhh. Those were the days.

Yes, they were. ; )

One still had to face them, or again, are you claiming that you could grip a person behind your back?


As I've mentioned earlier, the very good players that I was aware of played in third.

Communities are usually bigger than people admit, but maybe you and I are thinking of the same people? ; )

Certainly I knew of players that played in first. Some of my best friends played in first. Until I showed them what third was capable of.

Reminds me of Vagabond and his stories of the glory days of playing JK sabers in first person with his joysticks. =)

Whatever floats your x-wing man!


First = Immersion? Hmm. That reminds me of a lad I once spoke to, he was using Tavion as his skin. I asked him, why did he use the skin of a woman when he was in fact a man? Not that there was anything wrong with it, I was merely curious, as I like to use male skins myself, as I am a male. He said that he didn't like looking at Kyle's bottom waving around in front of him all the time. Hmm, I thought, there is such a thing as getting TOO involved with a game...

I don't mean playing as yourself in the game. Here's what I mean. Immersion as in "putting you into the role of the character."

When I look around the room or sit at my computer or go to class or whatever, I don't see my own back as I run around doing my daily routine. Not unless I'm watching a video feed of a person following me or staring at two mirrors or something odd like that!

Rather, I see my hands, and if I look down, the rest of my body, but not my own face (except in a mirror) and not my own back (again, without the aide of a mirror).

Last time I checked there were no mirrors in JK, and only one or two in JK2 (the reflective floor in the demo level and that weird thing with Desann splitting into three).

The immersion factor is that I see what the character sees.

Maybe through the power of the Force, my character is projecting himself outside his own body to view himself, while simultaneously continuing to control his actions as if his vision were unhampered?

We can speculate endlessly...


But you want immersion? Fine and dandy. However, First Person = Inferior view? A resounding yes!

Like I said, it depends on what you're using it for.

In driving games, some people swear that third person is the best. Maybe it is.. for them. Others swear by first person. I like it when games let you choose, thus you can tailor the game to your preferred playing style.

Like a trickshooter, with sufficient practice one could overcome an inferior position.


I certainly wouldn't be up in arms if joystick support was removed from JA.

No, but somebody who was a hardcore joystick player might. Which is the point. People who like to have the option first person are upset that it is (seemingly) being removed. It's not that they're demanding something be coded that never existed in the first place, but rather it's a new game, made by the same team, using the same code base (modified of course) and its been disabled.

I'm also the one holding out hope that the option can still be enabled in the final version in Multiplayer. Until that time, I'll reserve criticizing Raven for their oversight.


It would perhaps encourage some silly people to change to a better control system.

Again, let's turn this around. What if in JA it were discovered that you could only use first person for the lightsabers. Would you be upset? Would you complain? Would you try to design a mod to let you use third person again?

Or what if Raven decided to remove the third person option from guns. Would you feel disappointed in the slightest?


Likewise, the lack of first person sabres is a good thing. Now all they have to do is remove first person guns...

So we'd play the entire third in third person like any good console game. [/just kidding=)]

BuRn
09-12-2003, 05:59 AM
geez Kurgan, now THAT is a reply ;)

Thazac
09-12-2003, 11:36 AM
Well, you COULD change cg_thirdpersonrange to 0 and get something that resembles first person... Thing is the camera spins with you :)

Anyway, myself I've always preferred using firearms in first person (you don't have your body blocking 1/12th of the screen) and melee weapon in third (more control where you move), whenever that has been a possibility.
Sure, I CAN use melee weapons in first and ranged in third, I've just always liked it better the other way. And you can't see your cool moves in first can you :)

Lastly I've never understood why one should get rid of the crosshair. They seem to get more and more interactive every game and in JO and now JA they move if you get close to an object, showing almost exactly where your projectile will hit.

Well, just my 2 cents.

Nemios
09-12-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Thazac
Well, you COULD change cg_thirdpersonrange to 0 and get something that resembles first person... Thing is the camera spins with you :)


To fix the fact the camera spins with you you have to set others cvars:

cg_thirdPersonCameraDamp 1
cg_thirdPersonTargetDamp 1

and to have the camera at the height of your eyes:

cg_thirdPersonVertOffset -4

The problem is your skin is not trasparent yet and force speed is unusable 'cause when the world slows around you the camera moves forward and you see yourself from the front :(

Good points Kurgan. You obviously like more 3rd person view but understand our... point of view! ;)

Spider Al instead seems to want a flame war calling the others who don't have his opinion "silly people"... bah!
Even if 1st person would be worse there are player that don't play to always WIN and be the best players, but to... PLAY, and enjoy the game the way they like it.

Kurgan
09-12-2003, 02:26 PM
Spider Al instead seems to want a flame war calling the others who don't have his opinion "silly people"... bah!
Even if 1st person would be worse there are player that don't play to always WIN and be the best players, but to... PLAY, and enjoy the game the way they like it.

He's an opinionated guy, but then so am I. Wouldn't call him a flamer though.. ; )

Spider AL
09-12-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan:

Hey, SA, I know we both love to debate, but it's late, so I'm not at my best, I hope you don't mind. ; )Hey, who is. I haven't been at my best since pre-pubescence.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

The map gave you the widest possible perspective, which was my point. You couldn't execute grip behind your back could you? The map gave you a useful, but abstract overview. Not a wide perspective in terms of force power usage. As for grip, you could certainly execute it in a wider radius than first person perspective lent itself to. ;) As I said before, one simply couldn't do without third in combination with grip. Say an opponent crosses in front of one at high speed. And you want to grip them. Third person perspective meant that relative to your player model, you gained an extra split second in which to spring a grip on them. In high level games, that was all one needed to win. Think of third person perspective as the widescreen of computer gaming. Nobody who's seen it should ever go back to pan and scan.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Map.

Map. Plus your visual range is obstructed partially by your body anyway, a trade off to see partially behind your back.The map provided precious few reference points to the world around one. I'm sure you'd agree that it'd be difficult to navigate round oasis with ONLY the 2d overlay map to steer by. No, the way people move around maps is certainly dependant on the main viewpoint, be it third or (inferior) first person viewpoint. With regards to the range being obstructed by one's body, negligibly. The benefits far outweighed the costs.


Originally posted by Kurgan:

For Jumping yes, although using first person mode you learn the proper timing anyway with practice. Years of playing FPS games with no first person mode will do that for you. Granted, years of playing console games in third person view alone may give you similar practice with the other aspect.The contrast was palpable. I trained up using first for guns and third for sabres, like most beginners. However, when my acquaintances mentioned that third was good for guns, and I tried it, all my jumping became superior. It turned out that before, I'd been trying to put a square peg in a square hole... but without being able to see the square peg. Third person allows one to see one's avatar in the world, and to slot him or her into whatever flight path one wishes with greater speed and efficiency. On a side note, third person allowed me to learn new maps and the jumping possibilities of those maps quicker than those who use first person, simply through the fact that in third person view one can more easily see one's relationship to far away objects, platforms, alcoves etc.

I really can't stress enough how valuable third person is in terms of RELATING to the game world.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Only to a very limited extent on the sides and directly behind you, as I mentioned. Seeing+Map already allows you to know everyone's position relative to you on the map and what direction they are facing at any given time. Once again, the map does not make the main view obsolete, and the third person view even less so. When one is straferunning a tight circle around an opponent who is similarly trying to attain the correct angle towards one so that they can grip away like a sithbunny, the third person view is perhaps the only way to orient oneself to one's foe in time. It's too easy to get lost in the 2d world of the map to say that it replaces the advantages of third person view.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

I agree, it only showed one "floor" at a time, the one you were on. But then using third person view didn't tell you if people were below you did it? All it would tell you is if somebody was trying to sneak up directly behind you or parallel to you on the sides (and if you used Seeing+Map you would already know they were coming up long before they got that close.To an extent it did tell you if people were below you, were they close enough. It showed you a wider view in all directions around your character. Sneaking never occurred in high level games, but at close range, orientation came from the main view. Third gave you a wider view, so there was frankly no contest.

Oh, don't forget that it allowed one to look round corners without physically jumping round them. In NF, that was an extra special advantage, which I loved dearly.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

I'm a traditionalist, I play sabers in third person, guns in first. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use what works best for YOU, which I think is the entire point here.This is the crux of my argument... some people claim that the joystick works best for them, but I argue that they simply haven't made the effort to adapt to a rodent. And no matter how good they become with the stick, they'd be better still, with a mouse.

Some things are solely a matter of personal preference, but most things are tangibly better or worse than each other. First vs. Third person perspectives are just such a thing.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

On the one hand, it's been argued that first person sabers are "useless" and therefore it's a good thing that Raven nixed them (we're assuming they were nixed for the sake of argument... if the demo is a hint), whereas I argued that that's like saying third person guns are useless.Useless? hmm... Maybe a bit harsh. Inferior? Certainly.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

[SIZE=1]So in a sense, you're arguing FOR my point, because you're making a case that a seemingly little used feature is actually considered preferable to certain people. Nonsense! The mind is a little used feature, preferable to certain people. ;) Just because a comparable number of people think only with their fists or groins, doesn't mean that those items are any use when it comes to thinking.

In this case, the groin/knuckles are the first person sabres, and the brain is third person sabres. Quite clearly superior, and likewise with the guns. :D

As I've said before, if there was no joystick support in JA, I would be happy, because the joystick is inferior, and people who like joysticks and wanted to play the game would have to learn to love a rodent, and in the end they would be better off. Likewise I hope first person sabres are unavailable in JA, because when all you people learn the superiority of watching kyle's bottom, you'll be better off.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

I can see Raven's point of not using First Person Lightsaber from a purely aesthetic perspective.

Why go to all the trouble of creating lots of flashy, cool animations of players flipping around and doing all kinds of matrix crap, if nobody will ever see it because they are in first person mode? And you can't make the camera spin around and make people throw up. Enough people already don't like the "view bob" that they publicized how to turn that off.

THAT, I can understand. That and, they have all these wonderful customizable skins, but they didn't want to put in an equal number of headless or semi-transparent versions of each one (what a pain that would be) so they just made it Kyle's hands, which again, removes the possiblity of you seeing all the wonderful skin work they did. So as a showpiece of the artwork, the third person viewpoint should be encouraged as much as possible from their perspective.

I'm not saying you're wrong, obviously. ; )You seem to be saying I'm right... Which works for me. :)

Originally posted by Kurgan:

The point about the map crosshair was just an old trick somebody mentioned once... if you zoomed the map to max, the little red indicator that represented you would be centered on the screen, and in third person mode, this was just about right to use as a crosshair.

I never used it myself, and in fact that is why I asked why would anybody use it, and the person told me that they came up with it because they wanted to use third person all the time.Sounds like your friend didn't understand the purpose of the map too clearly. He wasn't characteristic of those that used third person though.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

See, that's what I don't understand. Why is turning off your crosshair a sign of superior skill? Because it's a "crutch"?Exactly, it's like training wheels on a bike. Helps to teach one how to ride, but becomes a stodgy barrier to freedom after a while.

After a certain amount of time, the crosshair is entirely unneccesary. It's annoying too, turn it off, that's my advice.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Real life firearms have what are commonly referred to as "iron sights" (because they're part of the metalwork of the gun). A person is expected to use them to sight along the barrel as an aide for targetting.

Now it may be impressive to see a person firing their gun accurately without using the iron sights, but isn't that their purpose?You forget that firing instinctively from the hip accurately with a sidearm is a most effective commando technique. I think it was William Fairbairn that wrote "Extreme speed and instinctive aim, as opposed to deliberate aim, are essential in combat."

Originally posted by Kurgan:

And anyway, what about people who prefer the "Immersion factor" of first person view?Umm... Nonessential I'm afraid. They'd grow used to third person, despite their initial whimsy to the contrary.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

I imagine so. Likewise there are people who can shoot targets blindfolded or behind their backs. With sufficient practice a person can become skilled at just about anything if they are willing to put in the time and effort.

Sort of like how people could become good players with 1000 pings. ; )I know this one! Find a peer to peer game, and host all the time! hehe, j/k.

As to aiming without a crosshair, the crosshair becomes a hindrance to speed because one's concious mind is always trying to line the damn thing up with an opponent in a most fiddly manner. Without the crosshair, one can lead-fire more readily, one can snapshot more accurately, all sorts of things.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

See my example about the iron sights. Notice how when you use the Disruptor Rifle (or the ST Rifle Scope in MotS) it forces you into a first person perspective. Because those weapons are about accuracy.I doubt anyone would argue that sniping is about long-range shooting, which must naturally involve crosshairs. Time is usually taken over a sniping shot, however, which separates it from the necessity for instinctive snapshooting that characterises closer range weapons.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

With third person view, you're more likely to rely on weapons with splash damage (shooting somebody with the concussion rifle in JK wasn't too hard, the blast radius was so big) or waste ammo by "sweeping" your shots into place. With first person, you can just point and shoot with far less adjustment. Blocking blaster shots happens a lot, and you can line it up just perfectly as you move in for the kill.I'm afraid it's not true that those who don't use crosshairs are less accurate. It merely becomes truly instinctive, so they fire faster, and are equally accurate.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Ha! If you ever used the lightsaber in FF guns games, you'd have blocked a few bolts in your time. I certainly blocked my share!Ergh! No self respecting leetist would do such a thing! Pulling one's sabre meant one of three things:

[list=1]
I'd run out of ammo for a more effective weapon (shame on me, I should have hogged better)
I'd just spawned (In which case, within two seconds flat I should have picked up either a rail or conky)
I decided to show off by killing my opponent with a weak JK1 sabre (bad form)
[/list=1]

Either way, it's hardly a situation in which to judge the merits of the viewpoint one is using.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

So you're saying a person could lock on with grip behind their back? Or as you were running by? There's a subtle distinction here, I just wanted you to clarify.Well duh.

The second paragraph in this post goes into the third person advantage when it comes to grip.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Communities are usually bigger than people admit, but maybe you and I are thinking of the same people? ; )Doubtful, if the people you're thinking of used first person all the time.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Reminds me of Vagabond and his stories of the glory days of playing JK sabers in first person with his joysticks. =)

Whatever floats your x-wing man!No doubt he'd have been even better with a rodent and kyle's bottom. ;)

Originally posted by Kurgan:

I don't mean playing as yourself in the game. Here's what I mean. Immersion as in "putting you into the role of the character." Semantics! I personally don't want to pretend to be a Jedi. I want to play the game in the manner which is most efficient. Call me mercenary, but the more I win, the more fun I have.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Like I said, it depends on what you're using it for.

In driving games, some people swear that third person is the best. Maybe it is.. for them. Others swear by first person. I like it when games let you choose, thus you can tailor the game to your preferred playing style. It's not an issue of personal preference, any more than holding a rifle the wrong way round is "personal preference." There's a better way of doing things, and a not-so-good way. The latter is logically expendable.

Frankly I think that you by yourself have put forward enough evidence in that post to prove that first person sabres is the least desirable of the two options, and therefore is extraneous to requirements.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

No, but somebody who was a hardcore joystick player might. Which is the point. People who like to have the option first person are upset that it is (seemingly) being removed. It's not that they're demanding something be coded that never existed in the first place, but rather it's a new game, made by the same team, using the same code base (modified of course) and its been disabled.Yes, it's like bemoaning the fact that the game doesn't crash as much, or something. Personally I consider the lack of 1st person sabres to be tantamount to a bugfix. That may seem harsh, but trust me, it's better this way.

Originally posted by Kurgan:

I'm also the one holding out hope that the option can still be enabled in the final version in Multiplayer.Urgh. What a horrible thought. :p

Originally posted by Kurgan:

Again, let's turn this around. What if in JA it were discovered that you could only use first person for the lightsabers. Would you be upset? Would you complain? Would you try to design a mod to let you use third person again?

Or what if Raven decided to remove the third person option from guns. Would you feel disappointed in the slightest?I'd feel disappointed... that I'd been forced to play an obviously inferior viewpoint. That's all.

Now... you don't have that problem! Wahaha! j/k. ;)

Bad_karma_2one
09-12-2003, 07:09 PM
Just hate 3rd person, always have PLUS IMO in 1st person it lets you be more accurate with sabre attacks, like if you are doing a right to left swipe and you want to get them in the neck or something its easier to do it from 1st person since you have a closer view of it.

Anyway i just like 1st person, it lets you look them in the eye so you can aim your thumb easier:D

Bad_karma_2one
09-14-2003, 02:17 AM
BUMP:bdroid2:

The Cheat
09-14-2003, 02:24 AM
it may be possible through the console, or through a mod later, but i think it would just be better to use 3rd person with the dual sabers and dualblade saber

Tyler_Durden
09-14-2003, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Nemios
To fix the fact the camera spins with you you have to set others cvars:

cg_thirdPersonCameraDamp 1
cg_thirdPersonTargetDamp 1

and to have the camera at the height of your eyes:

cg_thirdPersonVertOffset -4

The problem is your skin is not trasparent yet and force speed is unusable 'cause when the world slows around you the camera moves forward and you see yourself from the front :(

The cvars work pretty awesome. It's a shame that raven couldn't implement them into the game but then again it is just a beta. If it is not worked into the final game i would like to think that they are working on a patch. If not i'm sure i could figure out how to make transparent skins and bind the cvars to a key (or in my case a joystick button). Things are looking better and better

Javva the Hutt
09-14-2003, 08:31 AM
Man I love a good debate!!!

Both have equally valid points, but Im going to play devil's advocate here.

I believe that an effective use of both perspectives shows true mastery of the option. With the elimination of an easily acquired 1st person lightsaber option, LA really limited how far any player can go with this game.

Personally I used 1st and 3rd for guns depending on whether the target was on the same z axis that I was on. But predominately used 3rd for lightsaber.

I have to concede that to use 3rd on guns was very tricky at first but with time became almost instintive.

Then again, iron-sight are very useful in real life, scopes help for accuracy in long-distance. This comes from my military training and supplemental 'sniper' school in GA.

Kurgan
09-14-2003, 01:29 PM
The cvars work pretty awesome. It's a shame that raven couldn't implement them into the game but then again it is just a beta. If it is not worked into the final game i would like to think that they are working on a patch. If not i'm sure i could figure out how to make transparent skins and bind the cvars to a key (or in my case a joystick button). Things are looking better and better

What are you talking about? Those cvars work in the demo, there is just no transparent skin. Beta?? What's this about a beta?!

The demo is the same as the full version, as far as we know (it was made after the game went gold) just that certain features are turned off.

Again, I'd point out the cg_FPLS 1/g_FPLS 1 commands that are in the console, they just do nothing (in the demo).

Tyler_Durden
09-14-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
What are you talking about? Those cvars work in the demo, there is just no transparent skin. Beta?? What's this about a beta?!

The demo is the same as the full version, as far as we know (it was made after the game went gold) just that certain features are turned off.

Again, I'd point out the cg_FPLS 1/g_FPLS 1 commands that are in the console, they just do nothing (in the demo).

Sorry bout that Kurgan, i meant the demo. I didn't know the demo was made after the game went gold. But hopefully those features you speak of are turned on in the final game. If not, either me or someone else will figure how to do it.

Nemios
09-15-2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Again, I'd point out the cg_FPLS 1/g_FPLS 1 commands that are in the console, they just do nothing (in the demo).

Well, that's interesting. In JO SP CG_FPLS is not a valid cvar/command while in MP it is.

Anyway, before I planned I would have bought this game the day it shipped, now that I know 1st person POV seems to be unavailable I'll wait to hear news if it is available 'cause in the meanwhile I tryed the demo in 3rd and... I didn't enjoy it! :(

Obviously I beated it, but WIN != JOY for me.

Tyler_Durden
09-15-2003, 09:18 AM
What we could do right now is email raven staff and let them know that we would like the first person feature in a patch if it's not already in the final game. It seems that more people are coming out of the woodwork about this thing.

I used the commands in the demo, you could do the rolls and acrobatics, and saber locks as well. It seemed very intuitive (to me), which made the game a lot better than outcast from a control and moves standpoint. Almost made me feel as if i was holding those dual sabers. aside from the fact that the skin is not transparent, it boggles the mind why raven didn't put it in there (maybe they did).

Omikron
09-15-2003, 09:57 AM
Considering Ravens track recored (on how good their games are) I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't leave out something like that.
Anyway, if they did, their is such a large community that is skilled that I'm sure they could put in a First-Person mode.

gedassan
09-15-2003, 12:23 PM
<I don't mean playing as yourself in the game. Here's what I mean. Immersion as in "putting you into the role of the character."

When I look around the room or sit at my computer or go to class or whatever, I don't see my own back as I run around doing my daily routine. Not unless I'm watching a video feed of a person following me or staring at two mirrors or something odd like that!

Rather, I see my hands, and if I look down, the rest of my body, but not my own face (except in a mirror) and not my own back (again, without the aide of a mirror).

Last time I checked there were no mirrors in JK, and only one or two in JK2 (the reflective floor in the demo level and that weird thing with Desann splitting into three).

The immersion factor is that I see what the character sees.

Maybe through the power of the Force, my character is projecting himself outside his own body to view himself, while simultaneously continuing to control his actions as if his vision were unhampered?

We can speculate endlessly...>

Kurgan, while looking around in your room you also see a bit to the sides (have peripheral vision), hear positional sounds, smell and can touch things on your sides and behind you to orient yourself. From all this, positional audio is partly implemented in games so far. 3rd person is the implementation of the rest (+superior Jedi senses since we talk about JO/JA now).

Until you can freelook by moving your head easily at a 180 degrees screen, with force-feedback sensors giving you the equivalent of touch-sense and 20 speakers positional audio, first person view will not be even close to realistic.

I think there is no need to speculate endlessly:) The 3rd person view is a crutch to help out the player who is robbed of the larger part of his/her senses. It's effect of showing flashy avatar attacks is a nice addition.

Prime
09-15-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
What we could do right now is email raven staff and let them know that we would like the first person feature in a patch if it's not already in the final game. You would have to email Lucasarts, because Raven does not decide whether there is a patch or not. It is Lucasarts that makes those decisions (as Raven is a contractor and Lucasrts spends the money). Also keep in mind that there is no garruntee that there will even be a patch for JA. I would think they would be a lot more hesitant to make patches this time aorund, after all the foolishness that happened last time. You may have to rely on modders to get something like this.

Kurgan
09-15-2003, 05:33 PM
Since the game is already gold, complaining about this really is wasted energy until we can play the full retail version ourselves and KNOW its in there or not.

When I get the game this is one of the first times I will test after setting up.

Until you can freelook by moving your head easily at a 180 degrees screen, with force-feedback sensors giving you the equivalent of touch-sense and 20 speakers positional audio, first person view will not be even close to realistic.

Agreed. This isn't a Star Trek holo-deck. But first person is still an order of magnitude more realistic than third person viewpoint.

Prime
09-15-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
But first person is still an order of magnitude more realistic than third person viewpoint. Well, it depends on what aspects you are using to determine if it is realistic (how's that for a vague replay :) ). In terms of field of view, it isn't, because third person gives you more accurate peripheral vision than first person. This is the aspect that most of us third person users like, because we find first person to have too much tunnel vision. In terms of "seeing with the characters eyes", of course first person is more realistc.

Tyler_Durden
09-15-2003, 07:10 PM
To me the solution to the peripheral vision in first person would lie in the kind of screen you have. Manufacturers would have to come up with a wide screen that curves towards you like a "C". This way you can see more towards your side and front which, to a point, mimics what natural sight does. Either this or a virtual environment, which will unfortunately take a long time to get into a game.

Kurgan
09-16-2003, 02:24 AM
In simplest terms, First Person view is more realistic (I didn't say perfectly realistic) because it places the "sight point of origin" in front of you, rather than far back behind your body facing your back.

I don't know of anybody who sees their own back 24/7, but I do know of plenty of people who see forward from their eyeballs...

Sort of like Driving in a car. Do you see out your windshield primarily, or do you see a "helicopter view" of the back and roof of your car out in front of you when you drive?

HarryScrotum
09-16-2003, 04:07 AM
First, thanks to Nemois for his post with the commands for setting a first person view. For those of you who are interested I tried the commands that Nemois suggested and added a few of my own. Try adding the following:

cg_thirdPersonCameraDamp 1
cg_thirdPersonTargetDamp 1

cg_thirdPersonVertOffset 4
//4 is just over the head so it does not impede your view

cg_thirdpersonrange 0 (default is 80)
//Gets the camera on top of the model.
//since the camera is close the model doesn't interfere very much

cg_thirdpersonangle 180
//For times when you need to use force speed bind a key with this command

This will switch you camera angle to forward when the camera swings behind. Only one catch, since your angle is reversed your horizontal axis will be flipped. However, it works in a pinch.

Bind another key with cg_thirdpersonangle 0 to set it back to front view.

I tried these settings and it made the game much more enjoyable. Coming from the Quake/Unreal world (you know, fists and penises as some would call it :D) this is more to my liking than the standard 3rd person view.

Hope it helps.

Harry S.

Tyler_Durden
09-16-2003, 05:44 AM
Hey thanks a lot for the commands Harry, it should come in very handy when i buy this game tomorrow:D

BrodieCadden
09-16-2003, 06:44 AM
There is no first person view with the saber, nor is there any option to do so.

JarJarBinks
09-16-2003, 06:53 AM
Brodie, if you're talking about the leaked beta I suggest you delete all of the information that you're giving out. If you managed to get the full version early then atleast put the [spoiler] tag around the information you give out...

BrodieCadden
09-16-2003, 06:57 AM
I didn't get a leaked Beta or anything, I only have 33.3k internet.

An acquaintance of my dad works at the local gamestore (GamesMen) and after me asking very nicely he let me have a copy before they went on the shelves. That was two days ago. I had to pay though ($74.99), but I got it a bit early. Damn coo.

I was disappointed initially with the game, thought it was too samey to JO, but once you get past the graphics it really is alot tighter and for a mission based game, the story is really quite good, if not predictable.

I do put spoiler tags around the info I give, just that didn't seem to be much of a spoiler. More of a technical tidbit.

Nemios
09-16-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by HarryScrotum
cg_thirdpersonangle 180
//For times when you need to use force speed bind a key with this command

This will switch you camera angle to forward when the camera swings behind. Only one catch, since your angle is reversed your horizontal axis will be flipped. However, it works in a pinch.

Bind another key with cg_thirdpersonangle 0 to set it back to front view.


Then, isn't it better to bind those keys to cg_thirdPersonRange 0 and 80? No flipped axis this way :o ;) :D

Hey, thanks for the credit! :cool:

What do you think, Kurgan? Should I change my nickname? Seems that no one can spell it correctly when they credit me... ;)

gedassan
09-16-2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Sort of like Driving in a car. Do you see out your windshield primarily, or do you see a "helicopter view" of the back and roof of your car out in front of you when you drive?

I am just nitpicking, but when I drive, I can turn my head and look around without turning the car around:)

Sure, floating around and seeing myself do things from above (in 3rd person games) is weird, but it simulates peripheral vision well. None of the game view perspectives are realistic. They just need to achieve their purpose.

First person viewpoint is great for tactical shooters such as Rogue spear. It simulates the squad member viewpoint well. If you watch movies and news coverage, SWAT dudes always run with their back hunched a bit, knees slightly bent, always using the iron view, only looking around when others are covering their back/front/sides. They have less peripheral vision, but they make up for it as a team, everybody has their narrow area of coverage. That is why squad-based games are great with first person perspective - immersion is there, and it works for these games.

Games like quake, unreal are different. True, everybody is used to first person in these games, but their very nature (deathmatch, team deathmatch, frenzied action) dictates that the person needs as much peripheral vision as possible to identify flanking threats before taking damage. The reason why third person would be bad for those games would be targeting with guns - it is not well done in third person, although it is quite easy with the targeting reticle.

Finally, games that feature melee combat against several opponents just cry for more peripheral vision. In street situations, if I were to look downwards and freeze with fear, I will be robbed and kicked - not just because I cannot fight several guys, but because I cannot run away - I don't see where everybody is situated and will easily be knocked down trying to escape. However, if I freelook, I won't even get into the situation in the first place. The same in JK/JO/JA.

I understand that you are not arguing against 3rd person, but first person isn't any more realistic than 3rd person - they just have different purposes in games.

Nemios
09-16-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by gedassan
Sure, floating around and seeing myself do things from above (in 3rd person games) is weird, but it simulates peripheral vision well. None of the game view perspectives are realistic. They just need to achieve their purpose.


Then you can also use the cg_fov cvar to increase your field of view...

gedassan
09-16-2003, 01:01 PM
Nemios,
could you give me the steps to use cg-fov cvar in JO?
How do I open the console and what do I type in?
I am interested in the effect.

Nemios
09-16-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by gedassan
Nemios,
could you give me the steps to use cg-fov cvar in JO?
How do I open the console and what do I type in?
I am interested in the effect.

Sure!

- First, open the console with SHIFT+TILDE (that is the key below ESC and next to 1)
- Then type CG_FOV to see which is the default value, which I don't remember :p (maybe 80, you can skip this step)
- Last, type CG_FOV 120 if you want to increase your view angle to 120. I think this is the max value, virtually with 360 you could see even around you.
- To exit from the console, simply press TILDE again.

Hope this helps :)

Prime
09-16-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
To me the solution to the peripheral vision in first person would lie in the kind of screen you have. Manufacturers would have to come up with a wide screen that curves towards you like a "C". This way you can see more towards your side and front which, to a point, mimics what natural sight does. Either this or a virtual environment, which will unfortunately take a long time to get into a game. But your solution = $10000+

My third person solution = $0 :D

Originally posted by Kurgan
In simplest terms, First Person view is more realistic (I didn't say perfectly realistic) because itplaces the "sight point of origin" in front of you, rather than far back behind your body facing your back. Of course. I'm not trying to argue that first person isn't more realistic in terms of what you see, I'm trying to argue that third person gives you a more accurate peripheral view than first person. This peripheral vision is very useful in FPS games.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I don't know of anybody who sees their own back 24/7, but I do know of plenty of people who see forward from their eyeballs... True, but I don't know anyone who can only see what is directly in front of them, but I know plenty of people who have some view of what is on either side of them :D

Originally posted by Kurgan
Sort of like Driving in a car. Do you see out your windshield primarily, or do you see a "helicopter view" of the back and roof of your car out in front of you when you drive? True, but I don't look exclusively out the front windshield either. I do have to see what is beside me as well. Otherwise every time I switch lanes I may run into something...

We are going around in circles. I see your point, but I hope you also see mine :)

Agen
09-16-2003, 05:22 PM
Lemme quote this from the JA review from PC Zone -
The control System is identical, and as before you automatically drop into third person when you draw your saber (though you can also manually switch perspectives at any time).

Well according to them, the sp is sorted :) might need to use the same thingy that was needed in jk2 for mp to get 1st person in JA :p

gedassan
09-17-2003, 05:28 AM
Thanks for the tip Nemios, looking forward to trying that today:)

[Back after trying it out]

I must have misunderstood you. I typed in the console command and the view stayed third person, just zoomed out further. Of course, cg_fov 120 offers great view of what is going on. I just thought you were referring to widening the field of vision to 120 degrees when in first person point view - dunno how I imagined that, but that is why I wanted to try it. Thanks for the tip anyway.

With no peripheral vision, first person melee is a no-no. But when we can have C shaped monitors, it will be great.

Bad_karma_2one
09-17-2003, 10:27 PM
Bump (want someone who works at lucas arts to see this thread)

ImmolatedYoda
09-17-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Bad_karma_2one
Bump (want someone who works at lucas arts to see this thread)

dude, its not that old, you dont really need to bump it. anyway, youd be looking for someone from Raven to answer your question, not LA (i dont know of any LA employees that actually post here, and i cant remember if emorog is LA or Raven). you might be lucky and get ChangKhan to reply, or you can try PMing him.

Tyler_Durden
09-18-2003, 12:20 AM
This feature is kind of ambiguous right now, as everyone is either playing the game or out buying it. Once i get it later i will post.

Nemios
09-18-2003, 10:46 AM
Any news? Could anyone try CG_FPLS/G_FPLS in MP and/or SP to see if there's a hope to play in 1st person?

StaffMaster
09-18-2003, 12:05 PM
Font forget that this is also a function of the tehnology.

i.e. your monitor and speakers.


I think that eventually we will make more use of VR type headgear.
Which would give us that sense of peripheral vision and with avanced positional 3d audio we would be ale to sense that lamer sneaking up behind us.:D


I picture one day having a jedi league where you would throw on your VR helmet (it culd even look like Luke's training helmet in ANH)

and a saber handle with gyro like sensors .

With some tweaking we could see some very true to life saber battles.

One day....I hope.

HarryScrotum
09-18-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Nemios
Any news? Could anyone try CG_FPLS/G_FPLS in MP and/or SP to see if there's a hope to play in 1st person?

I tried it in SP, but the cg_fpls did not work. I have not tried it in MP yet. The other cg commands you posted earlier are working well for me in single player mode. I know it's not first person, but it's pretty close. I have a key bind with those commands to set the quazi first person mode. I have another bound with "cg_thirdpersonrange 80; force_speed" to use for the speed force power. It moves you back, like you suggested, so the camera doesn't flip around.

Kurgan
09-18-2003, 05:36 PM
In the full version g_FPLS 1 works in MP, but your head isn't transparent, so it looks a little goofy (not as good as JK2 MP).

Hopefully somebody will port the transparent skin to JA (or maybe this will be added in a patch) for the full effect.

Same deal with SP (you can mess with the camera views to get the same effect, but your head is in the way).

Tyler_Durden
09-18-2003, 05:40 PM
Yeah, there is no first person in the game per se, however, inputting those commands gives you that quasi first person perspective, good in a pinch. If someone could mod the game, that would be awesome........ I think what you need is a invisible skin, but then the skin would need to switch back to solid for cutscenes and such so you don't just have an invisible skin with 2 hands and a saber.

Also you would need to code in the command to switch to first person and back to third, that is if you play in third at all. I tried find the command in the outcast config file but i couldn't find anything pertaining to first person, either that or i just don't know what to look for. Maybe someone here knows?

Bad_karma_2one
09-20-2003, 02:37 AM
Looks like we will have to hope that someone can mod it, i got a PM from ChangKhan[RAVEN] he said there are no plans for it, cos the arms would need to be changed for each different type of clothing there is (sounds like BS, cos they have to do that anyway in 3rd person)

I would settle for just one skin regardless of which option i have selected, im not fusssy about the accuracy of the textures, I just want a 1st person Light saber view

This is an appeal to anyone who can mod, can you please give it a go PLEEEEEEEEASE:)

Bad_karma_2one
09-20-2003, 11:34 PM
Would it be possible to swap weapon filenames or something, so that when i pick the pistol it thinks i have the LS and switches to 3rd person mode, and when i have the LS it thinks I have the Pistol and so switches to the 1st person mode

If it is possible, how do i do it?

Tyler_Durden
09-21-2003, 07:33 AM
i don't think changing the weapon name would do it. It's not about the weapon itself, it is about the skin. When you use those commands to give yourself a first person perspective, the skin is opaque, so when jaden does a slash, you can see parts of his body move as opposed to seeing through the body. What we need is a mod which will change the skin to transparent, yet if you want to switch to third person the skin will revert back to the one you chose at the beginning of the game.

Raven, please give us some direction to go in, a generic transparent skin, something. I have tried to do it myself, but i don't know enough. At least give us a clue as to what files we need to modify or what we need in order to do get this mode.

Bad_karma_2one
09-23-2003, 09:44 PM
Bump, please anyone at raven put this in the first patch, or can someone make a mod

boinga1
09-23-2003, 09:50 PM
WHy the heck does there need to be a patch anyways?

Bad_karma_2one
10-03-2003, 08:39 PM
maybe all the bugs in the bugs thread:confused:

Kurgan
10-03-2003, 11:00 PM
Yes, and boinga1, unlike kicks, First Person Lightsaber would be a client-side only thing. It would not make one lick of difference to other players who choose to use third person perspective all the time for sabers/melee.

It could theoretically be done the same way for SP and MP and no big deal. They pulled it off in JK2 after all.

I agree, that using a generic Kyle skin would work just fine for the semi-transparent headless or no-arms skin for sabers/melee.

It worked great in JK2, even though it was "wrong" because it was always Kyle despite the 30 or so skins you could choose. It would be no worse in JA.

There is no logical reason for them NOT to include this as part of the CG_FPLS 1/G_FPLS 1 cvar for MP in a patch, except that they really really don't want to let us use anything but third person for sabers.

The other thing is, with the arm's only skin, all you see are two forearms, so how big a deal is it if they aren't Jaden's arms? And how many different forarms are there really for SP? It doesn't have to be perfect, just functional...