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View Full Version : Ho Hum: My verdict... Your Verdict?


Doctor Shaft
09-15-2003, 05:30 PM
Well, after giving the demo a try finally last night, I have a few comments. before I start, i'd have to mention that I would not have even bothered downloading the demo if people hadn't been posting those cool looking screenshots. I decided I should give it all a shot, being the skeptical that I am.

Here's what I think:

JA is an improvment over JO... however there were still a few things that left me wanting. No doubt, there are a couple of cool new features in the game. Yes, we have a functional lightstaff and dual lightsabers. We have these new 'kata' moves for the lightsabers, which drain force power. This must indicate that Raven has read the comments left by the community, considering that the idea of force powered moves have been given. Accurate credence isn't really necessary though.

Despite all of these new fancy things, I still feel that we've got one small problem on our hands, in terms of multiplayer. I'm sure that Single Player JA is going to rock, and prove markedly superior to JO. Great. MP, however, does not seem that promising to me, except in the aspects of Siege Mode, which is interesting but for the moment still in the bag, considering NO ONE has ever played it.

Why do I feel skeptical of MP? To start, I'm primarily an MP player. I would never buy a game like JO or JA strictly for single player action. I buy Rpgs (rarely), and that's the end all of single player goodness. Why do I have an aversion to single player? BECAUSE I'VE BEEN PLAYING SUPER MARIO BROS. AND MEGAMAN AND ZELDA FOR TOO MANY YEARS!! :) I know some of you would disagree, but regardless of what kind of shell or version you're playing, a single player game is still mario bros if it's real time action.... I like multiplayer mario bros. better, so thanks.

Anyway, back to the point. The lightsaber. After playing the single player demos, more importantly, the desert mission... I was a bit... disapointed I guess. Saber versus gun combat, while against the AI proved easy, will once again become a major issue in JA. I predict that once again, the community will literally split in half, one side playing the full game but realizing that guns are the only way to survive, and the other half just not caring about that, playing on Saber only servers, and hence when the game gets patched, it's like there are two different games... I hated JO for that. 1.02... was okay, not perfect. 1.03........ then 1.04 came out and it's like there are two seperate games in the package.

To shorten this whole deal up... I'm going to whine and say that I want lethal sabers. I want to be able to play my FFA with everyone else, and KNOW that I at least stand a farthing of a chance against my fellow gunning compatriots. This discussion has been beaten to death in the past, and I know there are advocates here who will say "no, we should just do the game up like original JK, sabers only style and then "R347 sty13!!" guns". To each his own, I guess. After playing with the lightstaff, I have a feeling that these sabers are still only going to be substandard, old school weapons. I have no aversion to guns. But after playing with them, the guns are still as awesome as they always have been. Now we've got a concussion rifle too. I don't care that people use them, but I like to have my fun the saber style way.... AGAINST other gunners.

I played JK2++ alot. Lethal sabers. Sabers never dominated, but if you were good, you could do some serious damage. I don't think JA will have that kind of gameplay.

So, to conclude, here's what happens when we ONCE AGAIN have original JK style balancing. There will be tons of Sabers only servers (I know, they'd still exist anyway, but once again they'll exist even moreso). We'll have tons of other servers where guns are the way of life, and the saber is the n00b13 toy. Then, people get tired of playing guns only, since there'll be no juicy saber flavor in the mix (i'm biased), the community starts leaving unless Siege mode proves to be tons of fun, and then we've got JO: aka bow to me a hundred times, but now you can do back flips too.

I'm very, very cynical. Unlike JO, I will definitely just play with this demo a little more, see what more I can squeeze out of it, and then sit back and wait a couple months to get into the community fun. If the forums aren't filled with too many honor code discussions, awful suggestions about gameplay balance, and a whole bunch of decent gamers saying it's time to leave, I guess I'll buy it. Feel free to comment now. :cool:

StormHammer
09-15-2003, 06:23 PM
You can't really judge the MP game by playing the SP demo. :)

Raven have already said the saber combat will be 'similar' to SP, but not identical. They've also already said that saber damage will change between each different type of MP mode - so they do indeed deal more damage in FFA and CTF than in Duel.

As for the rest...there will always be people who complain the game doesn't do X, Y and Z, and that such-and-such feature is 'lame' and needs to be fixed in a patch...yada yada yada...

Give the game a chance, I say...

Prime
09-15-2003, 06:43 PM
An excellent post. Although I don't agree with everything you have said, you make good points. Allow me to retort... :)

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Despite all of these new fancy things, I still feel that we've got one small problem on our hands, in terms of multiplayer. I'm sure that Single Player JA is going to rock, and prove markedly superior to JO. Great. I agree.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Why do I have an aversion to single player? BECAUSE I'VE BEEN PLAYING SUPER MARIO BROS. AND MEGAMAN AND ZELDA FOR TOO MANY YEARS!! :) I know some of you would disagree, but regardless of what kind of shell or version you're playing, a single player game is still mario bros if it's real time action.... I like multiplayer mario bros. better, so thanks. I don't see how you can compare Mario Bros. (and older versions at that) to JO and JA. It sounds like you are saying that any FPS from here on out is going to be like Mario Bros. I disagree with this on so many levels...too many levels to get into here. :)

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Anyway, back to the point. The lightsaber. After playing the single player demos, more importantly, the desert mission... I was a bit... disapointed I guess. Saber versus gun combat, while against the AI proved easy, will once again become a major issue in JA. I predict that once again, the community will literally split in half, one side playing the full game but realizing that guns are the only way to survive, and the other half just not caring about that, playing on Saber only servers, and hence when the game gets patched, it's like there are two different games... The big problem with a game like this (and with JO as well) is that there is an inherent imbalance between melee weapons and ranged weapons. We see this in real life, of course, as no one really carries around a sword any more when they can carry an AK-47. In the Star Wars movies, the Jedi get away with it because they have the big equilizer, the Force. But in JO/JA MP, everyone has the Force, so now your back to the same old imbalances. As you say, this could drive everyone to their respective corners to play the gametype that appeals to them. I don't think this is really Raven's fault, because it a pretty difficult issue to overcome. However...

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
To shorten this whole deal up... I'm going to whine and say that I want lethal sabers. I want to be able to play my FFA with everyone else, and KNOW that I at least stand a farthing of a chance against my fellow gunning compatriots. This discussion has been beaten to death in the past, and I know there are advocates here who will say "no, we should just do the game up like original JK, sabers only style and then "R347 sty13!!" guns". To each his own, I guess. After playing with the lightstaff, I have a feeling that these sabers are still only going to be substandard, old school weapons. I have no aversion to guns. But after playing with them, the guns are still as awesome as they always have been. Now we've got a concussion rifle too. I don't care that people use them, but I like to have my fun the saber style way.... AGAINST other gunners. Raven developers that have posted on these boards have stated that they learned a lot about lightsaber effectiveness from doing JO. In JO, every gametype had the lightsaber working exactly the same. Everyone got in a fuss because the Duel type fights didn't last long enough, and in FFA/CTF they lasted too long. They mentioned that it really was impossible to make one lightsaber with parameters that satisfied all gametypes. IIRC, this time around, they are planning to have the lightsaber to different damage based on the type of game you are playing. So presumably, in FFA/CTF the lightsaber is more or less a one hit kill, whereas in duels it does less damage. This should help the issue in this regard, but how effective the change really is, we'll have to wait and see.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
If the forums aren't filled with too many honor code discussions, awful suggestions about gameplay balance, and a whole bunch of decent gamers saying it's time to leave, I guess I'll buy it. You can be sure that regardless of how the game turns out, there will be plenty of whining and complaints about the above :)

NITEMARE
09-15-2003, 06:43 PM
oh boy...

i will give it a chance. but i am as skeptical as "doctor shaft" here. raven just doesn't have the budget for that kind of project, that would make JA a realy great classic in the hall of fame for mp games.
actually i don't whine about it, because it's just natural! which game, based on engines by id, has been realy good in mp? after doom and quake (where there were no alternatives yet), we had realy good mods coming for Q2. with action quake2 beeing the first mod having a greater player base, than the original game!
it just works like that: company makes game, mod teams make the real deal for the masses.
ok it takes much time to completly convert jk3 into something else, and i don't realy want that. but it realy needs mods to make the crowd happy for more than just a year.
i played jk2 for a month or two and already saw the end coming if nothing happens. especially after raven splapped us in the face with the first update(ok we slap and rant all the time). then, we got the SDK, which changed everything...for some months at least. the big mods never came. and the smaller, more needed mods were separating the community.

like stated before in some other threads by various coders and other modders: the mod community suffers under the lack of coders willing to code some good mod for all to enjoy. the reasons are many, and will still remain for jk3, i fear.
but we will see...

Prime
09-15-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by NITEMARE
like stated before in some other threads by various coders and other modders: the mod community suffers under the lack of coders willing to code some good mod for all to enjoy. They are two busy tryng to find out how they can get emotes to allow them to sit and kiss each other. :)

xtrazx75
09-15-2003, 08:32 PM
I think your main concern is the balance between lightsabers and guns in MP, right?

If you want to fight against "Saberists" then goto a "Sabers-only" server. Guns especially powerful ones will usually outclass a lightsaber holder from a distance... Remember a Lightsaber is a Melee weapon and you have usually be up close for them to do their damage.

It's like swords vs guns - but lets not forget that you have force powers; push, dodge, run and a few others to avoid incoming weapons fire. Your lightsaber also auto-deflects a few weapons. Basically (in a guns/saber server) your going to have to be more strategic in your attacks and maybe use more than just a saber.

The guns are there because they've been there from the begining... this series is really a FPS but evolved into what it is now due to the lightsaber combat everyone loves. People who want to run through multiplayer just using guns HAS to have a chance of beating a saber holder or it wouldn't be any fun. The point of a game is to have fun, right?

Rad Blackrose
09-15-2003, 09:58 PM
Blah Doc, we're too busy trying to hammer out TS weapon changes we want to see in order to bother with JA. ;)

However, I won't make ANY judgements until the MP is right here in my lap. SP is not the deciding factor for me.

ic0n
09-15-2003, 10:02 PM
hi rad :)

all i need to say is that i think gunning will become much more popular in JA.

ps lucasarts: kick plz

Kurgan
09-16-2003, 01:08 AM
Let me reiterate what I said the last time this debate was dredged up..


JK2 already had "Star Wars-like" Non Force Gunners vs. Full Force Jedi with Sabers.. it was called Jedi Master (and unlike Jedi vs. Merc it actually was fun and had a point to it).

But Raven left it out of JA, because nobody played it.

I'm sure Siege will be balanced, so don't worry until you can play it and master it (not play it for five minutes and declare everything is "cheap" that can beat you.. but I guarentee people will do that, sadly).

NITEMARE
09-16-2003, 03:47 AM
jedi vs. merc is the only mp mode i would play with guns. jedis with guns is one of the most perverted things to do. that way, gunners have some weapons from the start and jedis can't pick up any. we played it a little bit but our server was more a saber only duel server...

it's realy hard to get players to join. some like it with guns (which makes no sense since it's quake basicaly), others with force (again quakeish, saber battles are rare), and others saber only. i focused on saber only and tried to pull a mod together which would make it interessting and fair. but there were just to many emote lamers i guess...

Doctor Shaft
09-16-2003, 04:42 PM
lol, rad, I guess you're right, I should get back to the real game... TS!! hehehe.

I feel bad for slamming a game from Raven though. I shouldn't do that. JO was not "awful" by any means, nor is JA going to be 'awful'. In fact, just the idea of a game like this, on the most basic level, is simply quite amazing.

but enough lip service, multiplayer is my only concern. I have played against gunners before, and I know how to win. The only end of the bargain that I need fulfilled is that when I do close the distance and deliver the deadly blow, I don't watch as my saber is not instant kill, but my opponents oh so easy flechette kills me in one shot anyway. Never liked that part. :rolleyes:

I want to be able to play in a community where the stradegy guides do not consist of the following for FFA and such:

"pick up flechette... force spee/rage, fire weapon. Pwn!!"

Judging from the replies though, there is promise yet for JA. I'm still going to hold off though.... i ain't got no money to spend :p

Kurgan
09-16-2003, 05:45 PM
I honestly don't see why Jedi using guns is a "perversion."

After all, there is no logical reason why a force sensitive warrior would refrain from learning how to use other weapons, or why he couldn't be an incredible marksman using the Force.

Obi-Wan's statement about the lightsaber being "the weapon of a Jedi Knight" says more about the traditions of the order than anything else. And we know that in the post-Republic days the Jedi and Sith have to make up their own rules, they can't always rely on the past, especially when so much of it has been lost.

The key is that without Force, gunners would need to be balanced somehow with full force saberists. So Raven can't really be blamed if they don't cater to these purist notions (note the example with Jedi Master).

Siege will most likely demonstrate how Raven can balance these things in a satisfactory (from a gameplay standpoint) manner.

In the end, if you want sabers to dominate guns, either work on porting the Jedi Master mod to JA, or just play Single Player. Don't start whining for a patch to nerf guns... that's the last thing we need to divide the community!

Obi-Wan X
09-16-2003, 05:50 PM
The only thing that upset me was dual sabers..

Im trying to get better, and im pretty good. But I can't help but notice you do a little flashy spin before actually attacking. Making things that more innacurate and that much more slow...

Obi-Wan X
09-16-2003, 05:53 PM
Have you seen dual sabers yet? If it were 1 to 2 hits for a kill it would be madness in FFA. Specials would be of no need for all a player would need to do is hold down mouse 1 and run into someone...which = a kill.

I like the 1.04 combat play, no matter what anyone says. Sabers cannot and should not defeat guns if no force is available...but if you have considerable force abilities and your going against an opponent...and you whine about it, it says something about your own abilities.

Kurgan
09-16-2003, 08:44 PM
As to the thread title... THIS Jury is still out.

Wait till tomorrow.. ; )

JDKnite188
09-16-2003, 09:02 PM
Saber lethality should definitely be increased. As opposed to Raven's trend of nerfing the guns, the sabers should be just increased in damage. It suits both guns and sabers crowds.

ksk h2o
09-17-2003, 07:40 AM
Hey shaft, I haven't seen you post since the promod forums died.

I have to say I'm skeptical. I'd love for a promod type MP action in JA but I'm skeptical. At this point in time, I actually gave up my dreams about a popular, promod-like version of JK. I just want to be able to go into an FFA server and actually FFA. I dont want to see people wasting their time shaking hands, or rubbing bums or like Prime pointed out in another thread, bowing, kneeling and doing double backfil to make sure they pay enough h0n0rz before actually trying to fight (only to pause every hit and ask hp?).

I've read the responses to Luc solars what mods do you want to see thread and guess what? Surprise! People want to hold quadruple lightsabers with every color of the rainbow, kick like the cultists, grapple like kyle, pull a staff out of their ass like tavion and fly around like boba. Above all they want a mod that will make em super leet and make it so it is impossible to kill the other guy without wasting 5-10 mins at it. They want the mod from hell and they want six differnet versions of it, so the community is REALLY fragmented.

=(

I just want a coherent game. I don't want to see a gajillion mods for every clan and I dont want to see mods that only give emotes and rainbow sabers and supah giga empowah admin powaz!!!

I'm hoping that the valuable coders we have in this community can get together and get organized as a community, leading to less fragmented mods which are basicvally the same as the other one with a slight difference in features.

NITEMARE
09-17-2003, 08:26 AM
whoa! good post ksk h2o!!
"...pull a staff out of their ass like tavion..." <-- KILLER
but after the laughter ends, the truth is still making me serious. that is the main problem, fragmentation in small interest groups.
the best aproach to a first mod for this community, would have to be only for the frame of the gameplay (have no idea if that explains what i mean...). no serious changes to the fights themselves. no more sabers, weapons, emotes, and stuff like that. but there are issues, that pop up as soon as the servers get full. admins for example, have a full time job keeping their servers clean of disturbing lamers. no cd key, no won id like half-life--> lots of people who think they can do whatever they want (because they can!).
one aproach to that is having more admin superpowaz! but that turned out to be just more fun for the admin, because the lamers tend to come back even tho they get freezed and skapped and whatnot...
another sollution makes much more sense. ok i know, that not everybody likes saber only duels, but it all fits in a FFA enviroment. my idea was to have as many duels going on as possible (not only one) and to make duelants not only invulnerable, but also noclipy for others. while dueling, you can't see anybody and you can't be affected by anything. people walk through you.
so then we would make everybody happy, duelers can duel (deciding wether to have saber only or full force at the start), the gunners can spam their rockets and so on.
this already worked in duel_se and duelers mod. imagine a league running this mod on 4 servers or so. they could host much more duels than ever before! reserving a server just for two guys dueling? naha, not anymore!

all those features (and many more which i didn't mention) are some kind of discipline helpers. the game helps keeping up discipline, thus making it possible to run a public server without an admin monitoring it 24/7, and still suitable for duels (the game type with the greates occurrence of disruptive behaviour ).

but lets see what is new in JA and then think about solltions. i think that many glitches are gone, but others still remain...

C'jais
09-17-2003, 09:58 AM
As Kurgan said, if sabers in FFA and CTF were increased in lethality, wouldn't that be just what Promod was about?

Sabers are a valid choice against other saber-wielders, and even gunners. Guns still remain useful. What's the problem? Everyone's FFA'ing to their heart's content.

Kurgan
09-17-2003, 02:48 PM
Now that the full game is out in stores (at least in North America), and since this thread was based on the demo, I think it's safe to close it now.

Feel free to discuss in the other threads or start new ones, just remember to use the spoiler tags!