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Admiral Vostok
09-16-2003, 09:47 AM
The time has come to begin presenting my plan for SWGB2. Unlike others before me I've made mine into a HTML document for readability purposes (and also to show off). I've made the document in the colours of the forum so you'll all feel at home.

At the moment only the Overview is available. I hope to release a new section every week, though if other peoples' efforts are anything to go by I'll fall behind. I'll post a link on this thread every time I release a new section. As discussion continues about the plan in this thread, I may make changes to already released sections.

Now, here is the link:
Admiral Vostok's SWGB2 (http://www.hyperjump.net/galaxy/swgb2/index.html)

Admiral Vostok
09-18-2003, 06:57 AM
I made a few additions that I'd forgotten for the Overview. Anyone had a look yet? Sorry about the length, but you know me.

Frozted_MM's
09-18-2003, 09:48 AM
k ive read the whole thing and its pretty damn good. NOOOOOOO pretty damn INCREDIBLE.

1)In your experience advancing thing i think droids should be the exception there no matter how many fights they endure they cant learn new things or get better unless programed 2. Maybe a research which grants them to be built already advanced should come in around the installation stage. (just an idea)

GOD DAMN U I WANNA READ MORE HOW CAN U DO THIS :(

well done cant wait to read more.

Darth Windu
09-18-2003, 10:33 AM
Vostok - and you accuse ME of ripping off ideas from other games and people! Seriously, not bad, but your menu system is a pain in the rear. Plus, your resource system seems a bit odd. You need trees but not metal?

Frozted - i think you have a little something hanging off your chin there buddy...

Admiral Vostok
09-18-2003, 10:34 AM
Frozted - Well I intend to only give Experience to some units. Trade Federation Battle Droids earn Experience, as we see Commanders in their Ranks. Super Battle Droids are less human though, and don't earn Experience - they're already really good anyway. This will all be expanded on when I get to the actual Civs.

Windu - The ideas I've taken from other games aren't explicite ideas, and they're already in use by more than one game. For example Experience is used by Red Alert 2 and WarCraft 3.

Also Carbon includes Carbon from trees and Carbon from rock (metal).

DK_Viceroy
09-18-2003, 09:54 PM
some of those ideas are really good but Tibanna Gas i beleieve is used for weapons not for flight wealth seems like a good idea but to generic in my Idea i have each civ with a different name for it under the general catagory of Credits and each civ has a different name for it some of those civs may not fit in especially if it's gonna have space elements Not even in what your cult of ANTI-EU call balsphemy what most of us call truth does not even attempt to claim that their is a gungan space battleship or even that the gungans had their own space ships and neither did the wookies and the naboo had unarmed ships so that's why some may not make it except as a toy box civ or a ground war only mode.

Admiral Vostok
09-19-2003, 05:23 AM
Well I only called it "Gas" not Tibanna Gas, so no problem there.

You seem to have gone on a bit of a tangent towards the end, not quite sure what you're talking about.

Sithmaster_821
09-20-2003, 12:05 AM
*raises eyebrow at experience concept*

Looks good, Vostok. And just to definitively complete the plagerism cycle, I think Im gonna borrow your classification idea. I like the idea that you are essentially submitting the acceptance to upgrade your installation to a greater level to a superior, although the concept should be modified slightly for those civs that build towns and not bases.

another_trooper
09-20-2003, 01:10 AM
Woa, im impressed, maybe you should apply at Lucasarts !
seriously, your ideas are pretty good

Admiral Vostok
09-20-2003, 03:15 AM
Sith - when I typed it out originally I had two types of civ: those that build bases and those that build townships. I had the Classifications named differently for townships: Settlement, Village, Town, City. However, I thought it was too confusing for something that is really only semantics. So I got rid of the Townships idea, though Naboo, Gungans and Wookiees will still technically be building townships instead of bases.

another_trooper - thanks for the compliment, but you ain't seen nothing yet!


I've added some more stuff to the Overview again, this time it's Power and Neutral Towns. I forgot about these before.

lukeiamyourdad
09-20-2003, 08:11 PM
wow i wish i saw this sooner...

Last few days have been gruesome for the forum(looks at JA forum).

Anyway, it looks like you have the best plan and most elaborated plan of the gang up-to-date(due to other forumites' lazyness).
It's wonderful and I wish I could find a flaw to it:D

Thanks for mentionning us by the way!

Darth Windu
09-21-2003, 12:48 PM
Vostok - if you can get metal from carbon you would be a miracle worker. Unless you didnt know, Carbon is non-metallic so unless you want woosen AT-AT's, your resource system is kinda shot.

Sithmaster_821
09-21-2003, 06:32 PM
Windu, he was copying the resource system from the current game. Dont complain to him, complain to LA.

Compa_Mighty
09-21-2003, 09:55 PM
I think carbon should be replaced by metal.

The resources should be:
- Food
- Metal

And I don't know what else.... I'll think about it.

Frozted_MM's
09-21-2003, 10:40 PM
yea metal would be more realistic but carbon metal i dont really care

Admiral Vostok
09-22-2003, 12:08 AM
Actually I think Metal is a good resource, and long ago it was one of the ones I included. I think Carbon is still important though, especially to civs like Wookiees and Rebels. Food is also an essential resource I think, especially for Gungans. I don't want five resources, that would be silly. So I think we'll have to chose between Metal and Gas.

I quite like Gas but I admit there are conceptual problems with it that I haven't fully figured out yet. The fact that it is an air-borne resource is the main one. I had figured the only way to harvest it would be to build a building under it and the Workers essentially "mine" the building. I can't think of many variations on this to create diversity amongst the civs, unlike other resources.

I also like Metal, and the only problem I can see with it is that we'll have to lose Gas. So, pending approval of the Council (all of you guys) I shall change Gas to Metal. If Metal does replace Gas, Gas will still be in the game as a Wealth Resource, which you can harvest as though it were on the ground to avoid complications.

saberhagen
09-22-2003, 09:39 AM
I thought the idea of having carbon as a resource was because vehicles in SW are made of carbon fibre rather than metal, but I'm not certain on that point, and it's probably EU anyway...

Darth Windu
09-22-2003, 10:37 AM
Vostok - well, my idea for gas is this-

- deposits found at varying locations and various densities in the air around the map
- Command Center (or another building) builds Gas Refinery which then automatically seeks out and starts mining the closest Gas deposit
- Gas Refineries can only be attacked by aircraft or anti-aircraft units
- Gas is required for aircraft to fly, ie No gas = grounded aircraft

Also, i think Metal is far more important than Carbon is.

Compa_Mighty
09-22-2003, 05:29 PM
I like gas, after all, it's what Bespin lived from, so it's accurate for the saga.

I don't quite understand Wealth, so, what I think is that there should be 5 resources:

-Food
Used by most civs

-Metal
-Carbon
Depending on the civilization, you could heavily rely in one or the other

-Gas

-Credits
This would be gotten from trading and other operations that should be defined, with this, you pay Bounty hunters and advanced technologies, Empire for example should have easier access to credits than the Rebel Alliance.

Admiral Vostok
09-23-2003, 07:09 AM
I might change it to Metal. It is slightly more realistic, since gas is really only available on certain planets. Although Gas did add a certain Star Wars-y flavour, it can still maintain a presence in the game as a Wealth Resource, though it will necessarily be easier to mine than it would as an individual resource (such as having the Workers able to gather it from the ground).

Frozted_MM's
09-23-2003, 08:15 AM
yea i think metal would work better gas is a little to plain. anyways i wouldnt care if u had both

Admiral Vostok
09-23-2003, 11:41 AM
Well as promised the second section, Unit Classes, is up. It's even longer than the other one I think. Anyway there are a lot of "controversial" ideas in it that I know some of you won't like, so be warned. Follow first link above.

Frozted_MM's
09-25-2003, 06:30 AM
1) Trooper shooting aircraft is good realism plus its good how you spread it over so they can't just shoot it while flying over unless getting fired at. NICE!!

2) Jedi and Sith losing force powers? ahhh maybe not the best idea but it could work if u explained why u did this. Cause in wc3 a unit could have up to 4 powers/supers could work like Jedi- push, heal, speed , mindtrick sith- push, choke, lightning and turning. Something like that but its all good

3) So the air units while fighting they keep moving but when not wanting to fight they still hover? Maybe hangers that hold up to 10 fighters since they should cost alot more now that they are strong. Which should just come out of the airbase and once engaging they fly out of the hanger and return when you tell them to.

Admiral Vostok
09-25-2003, 11:17 AM
1) Thanks! I hope Sithmaster likes it as he was the strongest opposed to Troopers shooting Air.

2) Yeah originally I had Jedi keeping all their powers, but then I thought there should be some incentive to keep both Knights and Masters instead of just always upgrading to Masters. As such the Knight's powers are good for dealing with many weaker units while the Master's are good for dealing with very powerful units. If the Master was everything a Knight was and more there would be no reason to keep Knights around. I'll add this in a box on the side because this is something I thought a fair bit about.

3) Well we've discussed this and decided returning to hangars is too restrictive and not really very Star-Wars-y. So no hangars. Also I don't like hangars.

Frozted_MM's
09-26-2003, 04:57 AM
yea well im not a fan of the 4 hanger CnC hangers either :D

but i still dont like them floating in mid air but i guess i can live with it.

Admiral Vostok
09-26-2003, 05:11 AM
Well I think floating in mid air is more Star-Wars-y. Think of the way the X-Wings rise up out of the Yavin Jungle, or of the Gunships hovering just above the ground.

Darth Windu
09-26-2003, 09:43 AM
Vostok - INFANTRY SHOULD NOT SHOOT AT AIRCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, for normal flight ops, aircraft will be flying far too high and fast for a rifleman to hit anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and secondly, the Battle Droids did a lot of damage firing at the N-1 in ep1 and the Gunships in ep2 didnt they?

Frozted_MM's
09-26-2003, 01:25 PM
well 1st of all it was a TF mech destroyer that shot down a fighter. And yes in ep 2 the droids did hit one of of the sky didnt c any others get hit though.

Sithmaster_821
09-26-2003, 08:16 PM
Vostok - INFANTRY SHOULD NOT SHOOT AT AIRCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ditto. From a gameplay perspective, it is essentially shooting yourself in the foot, and from a realism perpective it deosnt make sense either, for reasons Windu pointed out. Certain units (the TF AAT, the ATAT), can be special and shoot at air, but it still wont do any good.

Also, I dont know what game you were playing when you said that troopers were underused in favor of mechs. Ever hear of trooper wars?

Liked the jedi ideas, aside from some of the micro involved. The bounty hunter idea was good, although I prefer my way of signifying that they are on your pay roll (it fits better gameplay wise)

Admiral Vostok
09-27-2003, 05:22 AM
First of all, for normal flight ops, (1) aircraft will be flying far too high and fast for a rifleman to hit anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and secondly, the (2) Battle Droids did a lot of damage firing at the N-1 in ep1 and the Gunships in ep2 didnt they?(1) This is why I made it that Troopers can only shoot at Air once the Aircraft shoot at them. This is because for the Aircraft to hit them the Aircraft will obviously have to be low, and not high as you assume.

(2) They didn't do much at all, but that didn't stop them shooting did it? With enough Battle Droids shooting at Anakin I'm quite sure they would have been able to overpower the shields. Just like in the movies, however, a group of half a dozen Troopers will do virtually no damage at all to an Aircraft with Shields. So what's the big deal?

Also, I dont know what game you were playing when you said that (3) troopers were underused in favor of mechs. Ever hear of trooper wars?

Liked the jedi ideas, aside from some of the micro involved. (4) The bounty hunter idea was good, although I prefer my way of signifying that they are on your pay roll (it fits better gameplay wise)(3) Well most games I've played with human players sees them (by the end of the game) taking Strike Mechs over Troopers. Late in the game you virtually never see Battle Droids or Royal Security Guards, because as Troopers they aren't that good. I feel they need to maintain a presence throughout the game, and allowing them to shoot at Air does this. There should be some reason (apart from cost, which isn't an issue by the end of the game) that makes Troopers attractive to use over light mechs. As for Trooper Wars, most Star Wars games should be such! Troopers are the major military unit in the movies.
(4) What's your Bounty Hunter idea? I can't seem to find it in your thread.

Where is the proof that making Infantry shoot at Air is bad? Every RTS I can think of (except SWGB, which is because it was using the AoK engine) has ranged infantry shooting Air, and it has worked incredibly well. Even your beloved AoM, Sith, has ranged units allowed to attack Air. With Aircraft playing a much larger role in SWGB2 than AoM, it seems only logical to allow the same limitations to shooting. I think it is the only way we can make Air as strong as they should realistically be without tipping the balance too much in their favour.

Darth Windu
09-27-2003, 05:38 AM
Vostok -

1. Aircraft weapons will be larger, more powerful, and longer ranged. For example, do you think a rifleman could hit an A-10 with his 5.56mm M-16 at the same range the A-10 could fire at him with his 30mm Canon? There is a big difference.

2. The shots were BOUNCING off Anakin's shields, not being absorbed, there is a big difference. No matter how many droids were shooting at it, there would have been no difference, think of it like shooting at an M-1A2 main battle tank with an M-16 assault rifle.

As sithy said, this is bad for both gameplay and realism.

PS Frozted - tanks arent classed as infantry

saberhagen
09-27-2003, 10:18 AM
The main reason why you never see TF or Naboo troopers in T4 is beacuase they don't get repeaters. Letting them shoot at aircraft wouldn't change this at all. Where civs do get powerfull troopers in T4 (eg Reps, Confed, Rebs) they are used a lot. Although troopers are less powerful than mechs and die very quickly in T4, they're cheap and build very quickly, especially Clone troopers with the Kaminoan upgrade thing. Combined with artillery and/or MDs they can do a lot of damage before they die (although massed artillery slaughters them before they can do anything). If I'm rebs and it goes on a long time after T4 (depressingly often in low inter games!) then when the nova runs out I usually just pump out FU repeaters and MDs, which can be quite effective until the carbon runs out as well. I've even killed AT-ATs with troopers sometimes!

Frozted_MM's
09-27-2003, 12:05 PM
i know tanks aint infantry all i was saying no droid shot a naboo fighter down only that 1 mech did

PS- mechs aint tanks :P

Frozted_MM's
09-27-2003, 12:13 PM
republic troops suck they may build fast but there armor is still like all the others WEAK!!! Ad by the sounds of it vostok will make all the armies center around troops Trade fed should have weak troops but the fastest production of them on the field and much cheaper. So in SWGB 2 the whole system will change I HOPE!

lukeiamyourdad
09-27-2003, 01:09 PM
Actually Frosted, Republic trooper are great. They might not have the firepower or resistence of wookiee, rebel or confed troopers but being able to build them over 50% faster can give you a very big defensive advantage.

Vostok is not the only one to want troopers to be the mainstay of all armies(except Naboo maybe). I want that too. Of course there will be trooper wars but that's what I think is fun and indeed very star wars-y. Of course other units are a necessity in any case to win the battle.

Sithmaster_821
09-27-2003, 08:40 PM
Vostok, I still see TF players and Naboo players using troopers, and not only the specialized ones. They are just really good fodder and help protect the mechs from nasty things like grenadiers, mounties, MDs. They also make for a cheap and easily replaceable meat sheild. In most of my online games, I rarely built a mech factory, opting to use troopers with supporting air and heavies if large amounts of sieging was required, even in t4.

AoM has ranged units attacking air because there really aren't enough air units (and a realistic reason) to include specialized aa-units. In WC3, ranged units were the counter to air (and not much else), in this game they would be incredibily weak vs air and have a large ground force. Also, Star Wars games center around ranged units, most RTS's center around melee ones. Thats giving way too many units aa power.

Admiral Vostok
09-28-2003, 01:29 AM
Windu - I might agree with what you're saying but as I know everything about Star Wars militaries and absolutely nothing about real world militaries I have absolutely no idea what your post says.

Sith - while good players like yourself understand the importance of troopers, not everyone plays like you. I mostly play the game as an ally with one of my friends against three or more comps. My friend always gets a better score than me, yet his armies are so rediculously unrealistic. My problem is I have an uncontrollable need to use a realistically composed army. He usually plays Empire, and uses absolutely no Troopers when attacking. He builds them to defend, but he turtles and pumps out mechs. He usually ends up with in excess of twenty AT-ATs and twenty Anti-Air Mobiles, with strike mechs or Dark Troopers supporting. I tell him how wrong it looks but he won't change because it wins him the game. I'd like to make SWGB2 so it is not so attractive to do what he does.

Thats giving way too many units aa power.This is what I want, so Aircraft can be balanced in to be as powerful as they really should. An N-1 should be able to blow away a Droideka in one or two shots. You can't make Air that powerful without making them simultaneously more vulnerable.

Darth Windu
09-28-2003, 02:21 AM
Vostok - lol, okay, a short explanation would be that the A-10 carries far heavier armour, more accurate and longer-ranged firepower than a Rifleman. The A-10 could literally rip a human body to shreds if it hit you with its 30mm whereas a 5.56 would likely do very little, if any, damage to the A-10.

The point im trying to make is that Infantry weapons are ineffective against aircraft, so to give Infantry AA ability hurts gameplay AND realism.

With Aircraft, the way to restrict them while making them stronger is to use my 'Gas' idea. This way, if your enemy can restrict your reserve of Gas, your Air Force will either be grounded, or only able to conduct a few missions. This way increases both Gameplay and Realism.

Alternately, you have have a specific range for Aircraft

For more information regarding the A-10, go to
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/a-10/index.html

Admiral Vostok
09-28-2003, 04:28 AM
Yes but unlike your ideas my restrictions on Aircraft don't make them annoying and un-Star-Warsy.

It seems like everyone thinks I'm saying "Troopers are good at shooting Aircraft". I am not saying this at all. They are quite bad at it. Allowing them to shoot at it but making them not very good in doing so makes it far more like the movies. Also we don't need forced non-Star-Warsy units like AA Troopers (again improving realism), yet we still get a bit more AA ability than only having an AA Mech (making for good gameplay). I should emphasise here that I have no dedicated AA Troopers (since they don't exist in the movies) so this allowance for Troopers to shoot Aircraft makes up for that too.

I am as yet unconvinced with anyone's arguments. I honestly thought the idea of not allowing Troopers to attack Aircraft unless the Aircraft shoots at them first would appease you unbelievers.

EDIT: Yay! 1000 posts!

Frozted_MM's
09-28-2003, 07:06 AM
vostok do u really need to please us all? u r gonna have the odd person not liking your ideas at all its just the way it goes.

i really dont wanna c 20 assults on da map id rather c 200 troops :P

Darth Windu
09-28-2003, 07:44 AM
Vostok - all your idea does is take away from Gameplay by having Infantry fire at aircraft rather than doing their job, that being ground assault.

Furthermore, it makes a farce out of realism, as we have seen in Ep1 and Ep2. Even without shields, infantry weapons dont damage aircraft.

Also, how is my 'Gas' idea un-starwarsy? What do you think cloud city existed for? Obviously, it was a gas mine, meaning that Gas is an important resource. As we dont know exactly what it is used for, but we DO see aircraft being re-fuelled, it is well within the realms of realism to think that Gas is required for the flight of aircraft.

Therefore, my idea improves both Gamplay and Realism, whereas yours detracts from both Gameplay and Realism.

saberhagen
09-28-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
I mostly play the game as an ally with one of my friends against three or more comps. My friend always gets a better score than me, yet his armies are so rediculously unrealistic. My problem is I have an uncontrollable need to use a realistically composed army. He usually plays Empire, and uses absolutely no Troopers when attacking. He builds them to defend, but he turtles and pumps out mechs. He usually ends up with in excess of twenty AT-ATs and twenty Anti-Air Mobiles, with strike mechs or Dark Troopers supporting. I tell him how wrong it looks but he won't change because it wins him the game. I'd like to make SWGB2 so it is not so attractive to do what he does.



Just about any strat can win you a game against the comp. Against human players someone who wastes their resources on 20 AT-AT s will probably lose.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with building the units that will win you the game. That's the whole point of the game after all. Trying to be realistic or true to the films while playing within the framework of the current game is pretty pointless as only the battle of Geonosis had large, well balanced and evenly matched armies. Any attempt to recreate other SW battles, particularly from the OT would be a waste of time as there would be no competition.

Admiral Vostok
09-28-2003, 10:25 AM
Frozted - I understand that, that's why I'm not backing down.

Windu - I never said Anti-Air is the Troopers "job", I'm saying they have the capacity if they have numbers to fend off early attacks from small numbers of Aircraft. If you rely on Troopers as your Anti-Air guys later in the game you will die.
I fail to see how this is bad gameplay since every other major RTS does it too.

While I'm not arguing the Troopers are no good at shooting Air, I don't see this as basis alone to make them not do so. Workers can't hope to kill a Jedi either, but they still have the facility to do so. In the Star Wars movies I saw, there were plenty of Troopers shooting at low flying Aircraft, so I hardly see any evidence of a "farce" when it comes to realism either.

We've already explained how your Gas idea is un-Star-Warsy. Go and read the thread where we discussed it if you forgot.

Saberhagen - This is true, but I think it is important to encourage realistic play wherever possible, unlike how things were in SWGB1.

Frozted_MM's
09-28-2003, 11:36 AM
lets just wait he hasnt even posted up his aa ideas and already u saying troops are aa

and saying your idea is better then vostok is an under statement vostok is based on realism to the games but still incorporates gameplay windu yours is more gameplay than anything kinda like a CnC game but with workers.

Sithmaster_821
09-28-2003, 06:23 PM
Vostok, your friend would not get very far against any one that has a head on his shoulders. I doubt that that strat would work against the hardest comp in gb either, cause you need to get a strong military early in order to beat it.

If you have to over-power air in order to make it balanced that ranged units can hit air ones, than there is something wrong. There isnt any current balance problem with the air/land balance, and i would fix something that aint broken with some questionable rebalancing just to add an insignifigant amount of realism.

Admiral Vostok
09-28-2003, 10:28 PM
I've come to realise that perhaps some of you are unaware of exactly what I intend to do. Let me compare with the current SWGB:

SWGB1: The only Troopers that can shoot at air are Anti-Air Troopers, who are decent at doing so. There is only one other ground unit, the Anti-Air mobile, which can shoot air, and it is rediculously good at it.

SWGB2: All ranged Troopers can shoot air, but they are not very good at it. There is no dedicated Anti-Air Trooper in any of the civs, so to make up for the loss of this unit it is necessary that all Troopers be able to shoot air. There is only one or two other ground units which can shoot air, and their effectiveness at doing so differs depending on whether the civ has a strong or weak Air Force.

So when you look at it like that, Aircraft could pretty much stay as they are and it wouldn't be overbalanced. 10 Troopers from SWGB2 will probably be only just as effective as a single Anti-Air Trooper from SWGB1. Sith, can you please point out what is wrong with that because I would have thought it makes better gameplay.

Sithmaster_821
09-30-2003, 11:13 PM
10 Troopers from SWGB2 will probably be only just as effective as a single Anti-Air Trooper from SWGB1
You answered your own question.

And whats up with this whole elder stuff in the sigs?

Admiral Vostok
10-01-2003, 05:07 AM
Anti-Air Troopers: Aha! I finally understand the problem. Nothing wrong with my design, only with your narrow vision of what a game should be like. Sith, how can you honestly believe that Anti-Air Troopers make for good gameplay? Which sounds better:
- A unit that is average at killing air, and totally incapable of doing anything else.
- A unit that is poor at killing air, but is good at killing other troopers and adds supporting fire when garrissoned in buildings and etc. etc. etc.

What I'm trying to do is remove the rigid de-lineation between Air and non-Air. It is totally unrealistic, and while some people on this forum don't particularly like realism I say why can't you have both realism and gameplay? Very few games have anything as single-purposed as the Anti-Air Trooper, and there is a very good reason why.

Elders: Well on some other thread, possibly whilst we were arguing with Viceroy, Luke's Dad made reference to the "Elder Forumites": You, Me, Luke's Dad, Windu, Corran and Phreak. So then I said we should put it in our sigs just like in the old days with the OTDC. I thought it was a good idea but so far only Windu has followed suit...

Frozted_MM's
10-01-2003, 08:24 AM
I still think the troopers shooting air stays cause i never really liked trying to build 2 different units to hit fighters and ground forces. Its like in real life guns shoot at air forces doesnt do much damage but still that doesnt stop them does it?

Im pretty sure they didnt have aa troops in SW just to hit air.

Darth Windu
10-01-2003, 12:23 PM
Vostok, Frozted - let's compare my AA idea's to Vostok's

Mine-
- Trooper = cannot fire at aircraft
- Rocket Trooper = infantry unit that fire rockets, effective against aircraft and mechs, but not troopers

Vostok-
- Trooper = general purpose unit thjat fires at everything

As we have seen in the movies, my idea is more realistic. Furthermore, it is better for gameplay.
No offense Vostok, i like most of your ideas but this one is pathetic.

DK_Viceroy
10-01-2003, 12:53 PM
Not that i want to seem nasty but as my sig says i will tell the truth and it will set you free. That truth is that people propably don't want to put something in like that because it'll make people think you lot are a bunch of old men sitting in a shrine cross legged hovering and holding a big nobbly stick much like the setrotype of a sage. By that i mean no offence but when i hear that word elder it usually brings up that picture also people may not want to make out that they beleive they are better because they have been posting longer than everyone else or have more posts that they are better and more important than anything anyone lse could do or say. Kind of sounds like disrimination or a Bougouis Elitist and those went out with the Kaiser of Germany. Windu i kinda like your idea about rocket trooper's being good against mechs too but rockets don't overtly strike me as star warsy yes i know they've been in episode 2 bu i don't think rocket's that troopers could carry are. Maybe instead you could have a large laser cannon which can target air and mechs but not troopers because of too small a target. Though no offence but a trooper is really supposed to be all purpose. I mean no offence by anything i've said but as in my sig

Then you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free

Sithmaster_821
10-01-2003, 07:51 PM
When I said you answered your own question, I meant that I was pointing out a severe imbalance with your idea. Look at it this way:

10 troopers (vostoks gb2)=1 AA trooper (gb)

Assuming with dealing without upgrades, 2 AA troopers are needed to kill a regular fighter. Therefore, assuming that the strength of air units isnt tampered with (from your posts it seems like it will be strengthened) that would mean that 20 troopers (on avergae, cuase some will be better and some worse) would be needed to effectively counter one fighter.

Since poor troopers are usually balanced with stronger troopers with resource cost and build time, it would be a safe bet to say that there will be a rough average for trooper build time and resource cost. That cost should be roughly equivilant to the generic trooper cost in GB. Therefore, in order to counter a fighter, normally people would have to build:

2 AA troopers, costing 140 resources, and 32 seconds build time

Now, for vostok to do the same thing in his version, you would have to build the equavilent of 20 troopers costing 1200 resources and 320 seconds build time.

Do you see now why I prefer the older way?

Admiral Vostok
10-02-2003, 01:15 AM
Windu:
As we have seen in the movies, my idea is more realistic.Tell me exactly where in the movies we see a Trooper with a rocket launcher, and I will yield this argument.

Viceroy:
Yes, we Elder are better.

Sith:
So your main problem with my idea is that there is no good way to fend off Air using Troopers? That is correct, and exactly how I want it to be. Air should be countered with other Aircraft and some special Mechs, not Troopers. And before you say this leaves you open to Air rushes, you should know that the Command Centre can shoot Air.

I have a very good reason behind doing this. In the movies, and as many of you have said, Troopers are not good at shooting Air. This is correct, and I don't want to change that by having an AA Trooper. Now, Aircraft and AA Mechs should be your main way of taking out other Aircraft, I made things this way to encourage Aircraft use even in those civs who don't have good Air (except the Gungans, who just may get an AA Trooper because their Air is abysmal) because in the movies we still see plenty of Droid Starfighters and TIE Fighters and Geonosian Fighters.

I'm trying to emphasise the use of the army as a whole, not just one trooper for one task and one for another.

Everyone: The first civ design, the Confederacy, is up. Follow the link in my sig.

Darth Windu
10-02-2003, 02:09 AM
Vostok - just because we dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there.
Hence, although my idea lacks Star Wares verification, but has realism and good gameplay, yours lacks all 3.

Viceroy - actually Elitism has never been ended, and i agree with Vostok on this issue

Admiral Vostok
10-02-2003, 03:07 AM
Windu: You still fail to realise, after all this time and our attempts to change your views, that the real world has very little relevance to Star Wars. I mean, you can hear in space. As such, what we see in the movies IS realism, and stuff that we don't see is not realistic. As such, my idea has relevance to the movies and realism, and (I believe) gameplay. Yours is the one that has none.

Darth Windu
10-02-2003, 06:59 AM
Vostok - and i could say exactly the same thing to you. Although my idea for AA troopers isnmt seen in the movies, it does use interpolation.
Your idea, however, completely disregards the movies.

Furthermore, it is true that Star Wars is not the same as the real world. However, as Star Wars combat is based on WW2 combat (which Lucas has said himself), we have a basis for interpolation.
However, even now, infantry CANNOT shoot down aircraft with their sidearms, and hitting a moving aircraft with a rifle is like trying to hit a grape at a distance of 2km while riding a horse! (ie. extremely unlikely)

DK_Viceroy
10-02-2003, 01:36 PM
and i never meant like that i meant that were a monarch had supreme power because that's what Vostok seems to be espousing. Just because he's been posting longer doesn't mean he is better in some ways it means he's worse because he's too accustomed and not prepared to change or adapt or see things from a different point of view.

As for AA rockets really arn't star warsy maybe an anti air laser cannon that has special targetting systems but not rockets i think of only 2 applications for rockets and they were mainly Anti-Veichular. AA was really put in for balance True star wars would never have them since the answer to an air force was well an air force.

Nice ideas for the confederacy but tht stuff about the fighter is so wrong your going off the GB represenattion

Didn't you notice the orb like positioning of the weapon and engines that makes them very fast very manoeverable and able to fire 90 degrees either side. They have sheilds tractor beams and their pilots can use their heightened sense of smell to cmplement sensor Data

Hailfire Droid

ARE YOU MAD if you claim to be a purist and lover of cannon then of course it should hit ground units to deny that is to be an idiot of course if you heavn't seen episode 2 then i'd forgive you but you so obviuosly have or you'd be saying the confederacy is EU and all.

Admiral Vostok
10-02-2003, 11:22 PM
Windu: You might be interpolating from the movies, but I'm going purely on the movies, so I fail to see how that is "disregarding". Your belief that I am "disregarding" the movies when I am obviously regarding only the movies makes clear to me that this argument has degraded into something stupid. Even Viceroy, who quite enjoys his EU, thinks that rocket troopers are not star-warsy. As such let's assume I'm right, so we can appreciate my civ designs.

Viceroy: Actually I think you'll find I'm one of the more open-minded posters on this forum. Unlike some posters, I can be convinced of a different point of view to my original ideas (though not all my ideas). I thik you're reading too much into the term "Elder". If we were called "Lords" you would have a valid point, because as you'll notice I am Lord of Purists and as such I sit on my golden throne of Star Wars Purism looking scorning the heathen EU worshippers.

Now, about the Geonosian Fighter: your "facts" are based on EU. While EU states the Geonosians have tractor beams, don't you think they would have used them whilst pursuing the Republic Gunship with our heroes in? While I do intend to give them shields, the shields will be weak, and lets face it in the movies they can't be that great, as they take about a million shots at the Guship before only being able to destroy it when it stops to drop off Obi-Wan and Anakin. Something I have given the Geonosians is an area effect attack, since in the movies (and this is totally overlooked in EU) they seem to have a flak-like attack, as their bolts seem to explode in mid air. This will make the Geonosian Fighters quite good I think. Also for gameplay reasons they need to be relatively weak, as they already have the best Anti-Air unit in the Hailfire Droid.

And concerning the Hailfire Droid, you obviously failed to read my note in the box on the side saying that it would be overpowered to make the Hailfire Droid able to attack mechs. While I am a Purist and lover of canon (1 "n") I understand that to make a game exactly like the movies would not make for good gameplay. The Hailfire Droid is already the best AA unit in the game, it doesn't need to be a super Mech Destroyer as well. If it was no one would buy Homing Spider Droids, which would go against the movies more than not allowing the Hailfire to shoot ground.

DK_Viceroy
10-03-2003, 06:41 AM
I'll conceed that but as with rockets however it would have to go and reload at one point i doubt i need to state that? and as always i'm not referring to you in particular that i never do i never specifically target someone that isn't my style i GENERALISE it's just that i really don't like the fact that some people think they are better because they have more posts or have been on here longer. All it really means is that you've been on longer and have a little more experience which is easily gottenm anyway.

As for the stuff i espouse i still regard it as fact i would hardly post lies as my sig says i bring the truth not lies. Since something obvoiusly happened in between the movies and during the movies that couldn't be put in. you can hardly calll it cannon to go from an award ceremony on one jungle planet to suddenly freezing to death on an ice one something had to happen in between. George lucas does help out with the stuff he pointed out which stuff is fact and fits in the star wars universe and what doesn't.
As for the gunship we all know they are pretty durable they sacrifice speed for durability

Darth Windu
10-03-2003, 10:49 AM
Vostok - you disregard the movies by ignoring the fact that troopers generally dont shoot at aircraft, and even when they do, it is ineffective!!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore, you have poor realism, and poor gameplay. How can that be good? Vostok, stop ignoring the movies and return to the light side.

My system on the other hand, could easily fit into Star Wars, and is good for gameplay.

As for them using rockets, think about it logically. A rocket would be far more accurate, and lighter, for an AA and Anti-Mech trooper to use rather than a laser, which is why the AA laser's are rather large. Besides, the confeds use rockets so obviously they exist in the star wars universe.

DK_Viceroy
10-03-2003, 11:45 AM
Only 2 units used Rockets the rest Used LASERS or TURBOLASERS or SUPERLASERS just because the Hailfire Droid and The Gunship LAAT/i and LAAT/c used them didn't mean that they were commonly used they wern'trcokets wern't used because of one main obvious flaw.


FIRE THE DAMN THING AND UNLESS YOU BROUGHT SPARES YOU HAVE NO WEAPON

Admiral Vostok
10-04-2003, 01:12 AM
Windu: Actually in every circumstance where Troopers and Aircraft are together, we see Troopers shoot at the Aircraft, so from that point of view mine is realistic.

Wherever we see them shoot, they are mostly ineffective, though obviously they wouldn't even bother to shoot if their weapons were powerless, so from that point of view mine is realistic.

We see no AA Troopers in the movies and in fact we have no suggestion that Infantry-held Rockets exist in Star Wars, so from that point of view mine is realistic.

With the loss of the AA Troopers, civs need some sort of Anti-Air defence, no matter how weak or relatively ineffective it is, so from that point of view mine has good gameplay.

Armies should be considered as a whole, which is greater than the sum of their parts, which means Troopers are not your primary means of defeating Aircraft, so from that point of view mine has good gameplay.

Viceroy is right, though I'm not sure why he thought the limited firing capacity of rocket launchers could be classed as a spoiler. Rockets just aren't that common, especially when laser weaponry is almost infinitly cheaper.

I hope this helps you to understand, Windu.

Now dammit comment on my Confederacy ideas.

Darth Windu
10-04-2003, 01:23 AM
Viceroy - Rockets are used in Star Wars, therefore their use is realistic. End of story.

Vostok - that is rubbish. The Clone Troopers never fired at the Geonosian Fighters, the Snowtroopers never fired at the Airspeeders. The ONLY cases where infantry fired at aircraft was when it had an approximate altitude of 1 metre. Those are not combat heights.
Rockets, on the other hand, have shown to be homing, and therefore small rocket launchers for infantry anti-mech and anti-aircraft use are both realistic in a Star Wars sence, general logic and military logic.

Your idea takes away from realism and gameplay by having infantry do something they cannot do in the movies, and also by allowing air to be far too powerful, and infantry too weak.

DK_Viceroy
10-04-2003, 08:23 AM
COME ONE WINDU we've said they ARE USED but only by 2 units and they are not infantry.

Hailfire Droid

Misslies Fire At Ground Target Only

LAAT/i &LAAT/c

Pile Driver Mass Missiles Heavy Duty Offensive System


So you see windu yes they are used but not by infantry. however using lasers against air units like the SPHAAT and the turbolasers from the films As you can see it is Star Wars Truth to say that they weren't widely used against air targets The Truth has Spoken It Shall Be Done.



and like i've said earlier you need to tweak em and make sure that the republic doesn't have great air propably just the gunship LAAT/i and the drop ship LAAT/c the only weaponry the LAAT/c had were the Pile Driver Mass Missiles. but the geonosain fighter was fast manoeverable and could turn on a 2p coin while it could fire 90 degreees either side of itself but only 45 degrees up and down or it would shoot through it's vital systems if i ever find a way i'll post the designs on the forum somewhere.


In cas you didn't notice Windu if you've actually watched the last half hour of the film after yoda rescues obi and ani and padme arrives and dooku's ship starts to leave padme and her clone trooper lackies fire at his solar sailer Poonwoorca112 sloop. they didn't do that much damage but they tried at least

Admiral Vostok
10-04-2003, 12:19 PM
Exactly, Viceroy. This is my whole point Windu, Troopers still shoot at Air even if they don't do damage.

Let me rephrase what I said last time... in every circumstande where Aircraft attack Troopers, the Troopers shoot back. This is why I limited the Troopers to only being able to shoot after already being shot at.

DK_Viceroy
10-04-2003, 12:28 PM
Windu please tell me are the main species in the film are they or are they not HUMAN


If you belevive otherwise i apologise but in case you didn't realise humans can riase their arms above their heads in star wars they can do this too it is logoical thereofre that they would be able to shoot at air.

If you had a gun were wide out in the open and an aircraft was coming in to attack wuld you shoot it even though you know that uou propably won't hit it?


Answer that question and know the truth

The Truth Shall Embrace You And Show You Your Error

Darth Windu
10-04-2003, 02:58 PM
Vostok - with the Solar Sailer, sure, they fired at it, BUT MISSED EVERY SHOT. Therefore, your idea goes against realism, thank you for proving my point.

Viceroy - rockets are used by 3 units, that you know of. As i've said, just because we dont see infantry versions doesnt mean they dont exist. As we have seen rockets in Star Wars, my idea goes with realism. Furthermore, would you be arguing against infantry having lasers if we had only seen X-wings use them?

Finally, if an aircraft was shooting at me, would i fire back with a rifle? Absolutely not. Why?
1. Muzzle Flash would allow the pilot to see me better
2. It would waste ammo i might need in the future
3. It would impede any attempt at evasion

Because of the relative speed of the aircraft, the probability of it hitting me with guns is rather small, therefore rather than standing still i would be moving around as much as possible so as to avoid the incoming fire.

DK_Viceroy
10-04-2003, 05:12 PM
It's Impossible It's Like Hitting Your Head Against A Brick Wall

AH But Your Forgetting That You Might Also Be Losening A Brick

Windu in the few wars that have involved aircraft if a shot actually hit an aircraft the relative speed and the impact of the bullet would do a lot of damage you just said yourself that the chance is small that you would hit it but there is a chance so why don't you just concede thet point of your own admittance. you shouild after all we are making history and it is moving fast those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance and those who stand in it's way will not watch at all


Embrace The Truth Surrender to it

Darth Windu
10-05-2003, 02:44 AM
Viceroy - i dont doubt that you could loosen a brick from a brick wall with your head - it seems thick enough...

You seriously believe that there have been 'a few' wars that involved aircraft? LOL. Very good.

With aircraft - not true. During wars like the Gulf in 91 and in Chechnya, Soviet/Russian and American aircraft have returned to base with HUNDREDS of small-arms holes in them, and the aircraft have been repaired and returned to service.

Furthermore, in a StarWars context, we have seen that with shields up, infantry lasers BOUNCE off the shields, and the Confed battle droid lasers didnt do anything to the Gunships - and they didnt have shields!!! Hence, infantry cannot shoot down aircraft.

Finally Viceroy, if i thought you had any knowledge of Weapons and Warfare i would probably take you seriously, but as it is obvious you have no knowledge of this...

Admiral Vostok
10-05-2003, 03:49 AM
Windu - understand that I am not saying Troopers are good at shooting down Aircraft, I'm just saying they have the ability to attack them.

Since the Troopers attacking Aircraft argument has migrated to Windu's SWGB2 Design thread, someone comment on my Confederacy ideas, before I stick up the Galactic Empire in a couple of days.

DK_Viceroy
10-05-2003, 10:38 AM
That was a PROVERB windu it describes our struggle against your blaspehmey while it may seem like we are hitting our heads against a brick wall we are slowly beginning to knock the bricks out of your tall and once invincible fortress of Blight And Blasphemy your head is the only one that is thick since been showed the answer in 60 million different ways has no effect on your stubborn demeanor why am i reminded of your gunship idea from the last time i surfaced hmm must be coincidence that you want rockets. if a laser got through the sheilds considering the aircraft is moveing pretty fast and it's a beam it could propably burn through quite a bit of wing. I SUPPORT Vostok's idea of infantry shooting aircraft all that's needed is a discussion on the troopers to hit ratio. And as for few wars yes that's right it's only been this and the last century that have had aircraft in them so compared to the many other wars the amount of wars ast century are few compared to all the other wars in history learn to see beyond yourself not at yourself

Vostok your ideas are very good but i would advise giving the confederacy even weaker sea and implementing the 2 suggestions i made i look forward to your empire idea though i'm sure windu will be reading it hawk ideas ready talons poised in an attempt to rip it to pieces.

Admiral Vostok
10-05-2003, 10:59 AM
The Confederacy's Ships are not very strong at all, they are mostly very slow (except the beach-head lander, which I imagine being like those in Saving Private Ryan - I'm sure Windu can tell me their exact name). Though you may be right, I think I'll tone down the Confederate Warship, so it isn't a submarine. Stealth just doesn't seem to fit the Confederacy now that I think about it.

As for your suggestions:
- I may up the Geonosian Fighter's speed, yet I think it should remain fairly inaccurate. In the movie they're pretty inaccurate, plus if I'm going to give them an are attack like in the movies giving them too much accuracy will be overpowered.
- I still think it is too much to let the Hailfire Droid shoot ground units. As I said this will make the Hailfire Droid far more preferable to the Homing Spider Droid, when they both should be being used.

lukeiamyourdad
10-05-2003, 06:28 PM
The American lander is the LCVP Higgins Boat. No need for Windu on this one:p

Having fighters with flak...It's original Vostok believe me and I think it's fun but hmm...what's the area of effect of the explosion?

Hailfire droids should be able to shoot but should be fairly bad at it.

Admiral Vostok
10-05-2003, 11:11 PM
Well the area effect is only small, just like we see in the movies, in fact probably the smallest of all area effect weapons in the game. I've thought about it and as an adjustment to the Geonosian Fighter I think I'll increase their speed but give them a small range. This way it's a bit more true to the movies.

I don't think the answer is to make the Hailfire Droid bad at shooting Ground. This is untrue to the movies, where it was good against ground, so the solution is to not make it shoot ground at all. And for those of you who think that last bit of logic is contradictory: if we allow them to shoot ground but they suck at it it is unrealistic, but if we don't allow them to shoot ground it is possible they can do it and are good at it but are concentrating on Aircraft... that's my reasoning anyway...). I just think it's too unbalanced when the Homing Spider Droid is a dedicated Mech Destroyer already, so the Confederacy doesn't need two really good Mech Destroyers.

As a side note my web page host isn't letting me in to edit my files, so I can't make the changes I've discussed... hopefully it will be sorted out soon so I can stick up the Empire's plan.

Frozted_MM's
10-07-2003, 04:50 AM
Darth ive finally read your ideas properly and lets just say I have found a title :D

Command and Conquer Star Wars

dude half of those ideas are ripped off of generals, RA2 and ive noticed some WC3 in there as well no offence but its kinda pathetic I dont want to be playing a SW game and playing a CnC game plz a monk that jumps in mechs?? a royal cannon?

lol dont rip off others ideas until u get your own :P

Darth Windu
10-07-2003, 06:17 AM
Frozted - maybe you should check your facts before shooting off at the mouth.

For your information, i have NEVER played or seen ANY Warcraft game, and i have played C&C Generals ONCE (one mission)
So how, exactly, have i stolen ideas from them?

The ideas posted in my SWGB2 document are my own. I have looked at features of other successful RTS', including SWGB, and modified some features found there in order to create a blending of the best of different RTS' while including new idea's.

To finish, i am very annoyed at the moment, and if you want to crap on like that again, i will put you on ignore permanently. Constructive criticism is fine, your post is not.


Vostok - you realise that you just gave yourself the reasoning behind having troopers not shoot at air, dont you?

Frozted_MM's
10-07-2003, 06:21 AM
its mostly from RA2 that all this stuff comes from and annoying u was the mission i guess i have succeeded :)

Admiral Vostok
10-07-2003, 06:48 AM
Windu - no I don't realise. Please point this out to me.

Also, I wouldn't go off so much at Frozted when you've said yourself in the past "I've taken the best ideas from RTS games and combined them for SWGB2" in relation to your Wookiee Mirage Tank and what have you. So I don't see why you're so offended.

Frozted_MM's
10-07-2003, 06:59 AM
Dovin Basal- Iron Curtain (RA2)
Communications Center Wookiee- Human call to arms (WC3)
Royal Canon- Grand Cannon (RA2)
Ion Canon- EMP Pulse (Generals)
Clone Factory- Cloning Vats (RA2)
Hutts Monk Unit- Terror Drone (RA2)
Rocket Troop- Tank Hunter, Missile Defender (Generals)
Rebel Engineer- Engineer (RA2)
Rebel Bothan Spy- Allied Spy (RA2)

Hmmmmm keep blasting me I like it :D

Darth Windu
10-07-2003, 07:01 AM
Vostok - im offended because frozted had basically accused me of plagarism. I do not appreciate that.

With infantry, you said in reference to Hailfire Droids-
"if we allow them to shoot ground but they suck at it it is unrealistic, but if we don't allow them to shoot ground it is possible they can do it and are good at it but are concentrating on Aircraft"
Swap 'ground' and 'aircraft' and you have your reasoning. Add to that your statement that you dont care if infantry shoot air or not, and you have your reasons why they shouldnt.

Frozted - no, it isnt. The ideas for my SWGB2 doc have come from-
1. Myself
2. Rise of Nations
3. Command & Conquer RA2
4. Age of Mythology
5. Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds

and others, in no particular order.

Also, because SWGB has ranged infantry, does that mean they stole the idea off AoE?

Admiral Vostok
10-07-2003, 07:11 AM
Okay, so my reasoning, according to you, should be this:
"if we allow them to shoot aircraft but they suck at it it is unrealistic, but if we don't allow them to shoot aircraft it is possible they can do it and are good at it but are concentrating on ground"

That makes no sense, Windu, because:
:atat: Infantry do suck at shooting aircraft, so it wouldn't be unrealistic to make them that way.
:atat: Not allowing them to shoot aircraft won't make you think it is possible for them to be good against aircraft but are concentrating at the ground, because they suck against Aircraft.

Remember Windu, Troopers can only shoot Aircraft once the said Aircraft has shot at them. Obviously they are switching their attention to airborne threat rather than just getting shot like fish in a barrel.

Frozted_MM's
10-07-2003, 07:12 AM
I know some of them came from yourself, swgb but lets get real do u really want to mix star wars with red alert like a royal cannon like come on how far off track can u go a cannon in star wars they probably had that 10000 years ago in there time but not in this SW time frame.

Im only pointing out the similarties with some of your ideas and other games on the market. Just pointing this out so you can improve your template and not look like a bunch of stuff stolen from other games.

Frozted_MM's
10-07-2003, 07:14 AM
This trooper shooting aircraft issue didnt stop the droids shooting down the asslt ships did it i dont think so.

Admiral Vostok
10-07-2003, 07:16 AM
Also Frozted you forgot the Wookiee Ambush Tank is a Mirage Tank (RA2).

Frozted_MM's
10-07-2003, 07:21 AM
damn vostok u blew my case :(


;)

Frozted_MM's
10-07-2003, 09:05 AM
i just read the confed ideas for this template looking good i must say didnt read it before cause i havent been online for about a week.

the only problem i see is the hailfire droid should shoot ground it didnt really do a good job against the AT TE's it only hit one all the rest flew into clusters of troops. Why dont u just make there armor weak bad vs melee and not very accurate great vs groups but 1v1 not very good.

i like the way you incorporated what the factions make into buildings where they build there units very cool :cool:


damn i wish the battlecore could be added in the game but i cant c how it could fit the only way is if each player got a planet each but way to complicated.

Admiral Vostok
10-07-2003, 10:56 AM
Well I know it isn't entirely realistic, but the Hailfire Droid is staying the way it is for gameplay purposes.

My web hosting service still isn't working, so unfortunately you will all have to wait probably until the weekend before I can put the Empire up.

lukeiamyourdad
10-08-2003, 08:15 PM
Why not make the hailfire droid an artillery type weapon?
It wouldn't be a mech destroyers just standard artillery but not as good as anti-infantry artillery.

Admiral Vostok
10-08-2003, 10:30 PM
Very well, due to popular demand (and the fact that in principle it slightly conflicts with my Troopers-shooting-Aircraft desire) the Hailfire Droid shall be able to shoot ground targets. However, it is not as effecient at killing Mechs as the Homing Spider Droid, as the Homing Spider Droid has greater range and accuracy. The Homing Spider Droid also has greater Armor and HP, and is slightly better vs Infantry. Hopefully this still makes the Homing Spider Droid attractive enough to include as well as the Hailfire Droid.

Frozted_MM's
10-09-2003, 03:35 AM
I dont really see how the hailfire droid can hit air it didnt have locking mechanism did it just striking things at random but it can fly we didnt c it but it can and then drop to the ground and unfolds.

Admiral Vostok
10-09-2003, 05:47 AM
Wha?

Frozted, you seem to be falling to the curse of non-punctuated-posting that has recently flared up on this forum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but somewhere in your post does it say Hailfire Droids can fly? Where did you get this from?

Frozted_MM's
10-09-2003, 05:57 AM
Sorry wrong thing I was referring to the TF fighter how it can walk and fold out :cool:

lukeiamyourdad
10-09-2003, 07:45 PM
Lol

I'm considering TF fighter being able to do that in the game. It could be fun...although seriously unbalanced.

Admiral Vostok
10-10-2003, 01:23 AM
Well I intend to let the Droid Starfighter do that as well. They would be considerably weaker on the ground, since their lasers are basically pointing down with their legs, but their supposed light missile launchers are still usable. I intend to make them fairly slow on the ground, with less armor (due to being more exposed with a larger profile), and a very low ranged attack. The only use they'll be is to escape Anti-Air fire, I suppose. I want to make a bit of a better gameplay reason for wanting to do it, but as the Trade Federation is second last alphabetically I haven't really thought much about them yet :D

DK_Viceroy
10-10-2003, 09:36 AM
Well seems my idea for an air unit that can go on land has caught on from the Geonosian Warrior.

Your ideas are getting even better Vostok be sure to check my idea in the next few days i'm going t be posting a question for a civ so people can chose between them i'll be doing a basic outline


For The Droid Starfighter when it's Walking That's Called Patrol Mode and it has a better sensor range when on the ground which i found suprising when i checked the Truth but hey so it is writen so it is fact


The Prophet Of Truth

The True Way

lukeiamyourdad
10-10-2003, 11:29 PM
Well I hardly see the point for the geonosian warrior for landing. I mean he will be able to dodge anti-air but will be slaughtered by ranged ground units.

That's kind of a problem I was thinking about the Droid Starfighter in patrol mode. If you make it too strong then he'll be overpowered(due to the relatively small cost of it and its abilities) and if he's not strong enough, avoiding anti-air to be slaughtered by ground forces is kinda dumb.

Darth Windu
10-11-2003, 06:35 AM
Well in my idea, the Droid can land, but as Vostok said, it's really only to avoid AA, although it does havesome interesting scout possabilities.

As for the Geonosian Warrior, i have no idea what Viceroy is on about, but in my idea, instead of flying, it 'hovers' like the Probot to make it more realistic in terms of combat and make better gameplay.

Frozted_MM's
10-11-2003, 06:36 AM
Geos are fine landing gives them a edge in battle plus also gives the CIS a new strat to raid workers and eliminate troops with. Cant to workers by air, land and walk the way :cool:

DK_Viceroy
10-11-2003, 08:17 AM
Maybe Windu you should read other people's idea's instead of waxing lyrically how good your own are and saying that nothing is wrong with them which many people disagree especially on the subject of rockets we all pray that you see the light and drop the imbisillic rocket idea

Frozted_MM's
10-11-2003, 11:34 AM
Well first of all I'm sick of hearing about his template cause it has no balance what so ever so keep it in your own forum and don't flatter yourself over it please. I would rather listen to people who actually play it and know what they are on about then listen to someone who doesn't know how frustrating it is when things aint balanced or copied from another game.

Frozted_MM's
10-11-2003, 11:37 AM
With the TF fighter landing it wouldn't really be unbalanced just a mech when landing and a fighter when flying plus it would be vulnerable when landing. Plus not as accurate when on the ground.

JediMasterEd
10-11-2003, 01:12 PM
Maybe have it a little bit weaker when it lands seeing that more power is diverted to walking? It could be a possibility to do that as added support, but they'd be better in the air but still have the option to as a last stand type of thing.

The Hailfire droid should be able to attack both ground and air, but try not to make it the ultimate droid on the battlefield. Maybe more on the lines when it's stronger when it attacks ground but weaker when it attacks air, seeing how a single missile took out an walker...

Frozted_MM's
10-11-2003, 11:09 PM
True maybe its not the best for taking out aircraft it would kinda fire like an artillary would but fast and a little more range but not as accurate as it.

Darth Windu
10-12-2003, 01:46 AM
Viceroy - if you can make sense of the part regarding the Geonosian Warrior in your previous post, i salute you.
As for the rockets, are you saying that you know more about Star Wars than George Lucas?

With the Hailfire droid, the best way to do this is to have it shoot at both Aircraft and Mechs, which we have seen it is good at. To balance this, simply make it weaker than the Spider Droid and also ineffective against infantry.

That way, we get good realism, along with good gameplay while at the same time making sure that the Spider Droid isnt forgotten, one of Vostok's major concerns.

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2003, 05:58 AM
Windu - he's not suggesting he knows more about Star Wars than George Lucas, just that he knows more about Star Wars than you. Nowhere in Star Wars do we see Troopers armed with missile launchers. Sure we see rockets elsewhere, so it would be theoretically possible for rocket troopers to exist, but the fact is we don't see them. I'd suggest this is due to the reliance on a store of ammo, and when you've got Mechs and Aircraft that can carry several more times the ammo of a Trooper it makes sense to just give the Trooper a blaster rifle with hundreds of shots in a single power pack.

Viceroy -For The Droid Starfighter when it's Walking That's Called Patrol Mode and it has a better sensor range when on the ground which i found suprising when i checked the Truth but hey so it is writen so it is factFirst of all that is EU, not "fact", however I won't dismiss it because of this. This actually gives me a great idea for the Droid Starfighter - when landed their attack and range is halved, but their LOS is doubled. This makes them excellent scouts, and they're ready in patrol mode to zoom off to attack an enemy they detect with their long LOS.

Frozted_MM's
10-12-2003, 07:19 AM
Wrong there was a walking one in Episode 1 and there are heaps in Starfighter. The par t where the republic ship lands in the battle ship the droids turn around there is one right there. When landed they are great cause they shoot down air with relative ease even hit them when the target is not engaging.

I have never really looked at EU so all I'm saying is straight from the movies or some SW games.

Darth Windu
10-12-2003, 09:56 AM
Vostok - considering he reacons that rockets are un-StarWarsy, i consider that to be an anti-Lucas statement.

Anyway, i admit that my idea isnt canon, but it is probable. As i said, considering the vast speeds and heights that aircraft operate at, it just makes sense to have rocket infantry.

PS: games are EU...

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2003, 10:11 AM
Frozted - can you do some reading of a person's post before you flame them? I wasn't saying that Droid Starfighters don't go into walk mode, I was saying there is no proof in the movies that they have better sensor range when doing so.

Windu - what do you consider an anti-Lucas statement?

Frozted_MM's
10-12-2003, 10:45 AM
Im kinda reconsidering the trooper shooting aa idea just for gameplay. AA rockets are ideal but I still think some sort of laser turrent needs to be in the next game.

Admiral Vostok
10-13-2003, 11:18 PM
Well still nothing from my web page provider. They've been claiming the maintenance will be finished in 48 hours for the past two weeks. I might consider moving to another provider if it goes on too much longer...

Darth Windu
10-14-2003, 07:15 AM
Vostok - why dont you just use geocities or something like that?
Also, i consider an anti-Lucas statement anything that goes against what we see in the films. Hence, things like 'rockets are un-starwarsy' to me is anti-Lucas.

PS: in my idea, AA turrets are turbolasers

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2003, 08:55 AM
You know what I meant is "rockets used en masse by infantry are un-StarWarsy", which doesn't go against the movies at all.

Geocities are annoying with their popup ads.

Darth Windu
10-14-2003, 01:22 PM
Vostok - what i was referring to is ANY post saying that rockets are un-StarWarsy. Since Lucas decided to include them as weapons, they are StarWarsy.

Geocities does have those annoying ad's, but it's also free and easy to update.

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2003, 05:54 PM
i never said ROCKETS were un star warsy merely that there use in the aa role is un-starwarsy if you check carefully they were employed as anti mech and an air to air variety

Admiral Vostok
10-15-2003, 12:45 AM
No-one is claiming that Rockets as a whole are unStarWarsy. I even disagree with Viceroy about their use in Anti-Air, because after all the script doesn't say:
"Shoot him down!"
"We're out of rockets, sir!"
"So what? Rockets aren't used to shoot down aircraft!"
"Oh, quite right sir! Fire lasers!"

What I am claiming to be unStarWarsy is the widespread use of rockets amongst infantry forces. Yes, Boba and Jango use them, but they are bounty hunters. Widespread use of jetpacks by infantry would also not be terrible StarWarsy.

You can't just stick every single rocket in he same category. Rockets used by Aircraft and Mechs are very StarWarsy, bu used by normal Troopers they are not. I really don't see why you have so much trouble discerning the two, Windu.

Darth Windu
10-15-2003, 03:23 AM
Viceroy - as Vostok said, they were used in the air-to-air role

Vostok - because there is no difference. With jetpacks and whatnot, since the Clones are clones of Jango, they can carry the same amount he can. Hence, if you remove the jetpack from the rocket launcher, you could easily fit in another 1, if not 2, rockets for Clone Rocket Troopers, with similar loads for the other civs.

Admiral Vostok
10-15-2003, 04:30 AM
Windu, I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it isn't done. Of course if Jango and Boba have one, anyone could have one, but they don't, and I don't think we should ignore that fact.

DK_Viceroy
10-15-2003, 06:15 PM
I said AIR TO AIR if you read my post rockets were used GROUND TO GROUND and AIR TO AIR not GROUND TO AIR OR AIR TO GROUND read my posts in future and read them well for i give hhidden meanings and twist my words into a trick.





Though AIR TO AIR is hardly very hard to understand

lukeiamyourdad
10-15-2003, 07:24 PM
This topic is kind of...well you know...

Here, a "rocket" ,through the true definition of the weapon, could probably not shoot down an aircraft.

Now I'm not sure if the Hailfire droid actually shoots rockets or missiles but for the sake of the unit, it's the best AA we can get. Though if it shot rockets, it would actually suck as an AA weapon.

So in other terms, rockets have a very hard time hitting aircrafts. Their speed is not important enough to be able to easily hit a moving aircraft and they do not have any homing capabilities.

Admiral Vostok
10-15-2003, 11:05 PM
I assume, Luke's Dad, you are pulling a "Windu" and using the "real-world" definition of a rocket instead of observing how rockets perform in the movie. For example, the projectiles carried on board the Gunship must be called rockets, because that's what the Clone Trooper calls them, and let's for the moment logically assume he knows what he's talking about (he has been conditioned with military training for ten years straight).

Now, the rockets employed by the Gunships obviously have homing capability, as we can see from their change in direction after being fired: they suddenly twist around to hit a nice target. The speed issue is hard to clarify, though I think the homing argument alone is sufficient to show that we cannot apply the function of real-world rockets to Star Wars rockets.

Darth Windu
10-16-2003, 02:57 AM
Viceroy - there are a number of different firing options for the rockets we see in AotC-
- Air-to-Air
- Surface-to-Surface
- Air-to-Surface
- Surface-to-Air

So you see, it is plausible.

Vostok - as we have seen though, having infantry-held rockets is canon, and though we dont see Troopers carrying these rockets, from the performance of the rockets in AotC, it is logical that troopers equipped for Anti-Aircraft or Anti-Armour roles would be equipped with these weapons.

Admiral Vostok
10-16-2003, 03:27 AM
I agree technically with what you're saying, though this is what I believe:

Troopers are rarely if ever equipped for an Anti-Air role, though if they were they would probably use a rocket launcher.
Troopers use heavy repeating cannons for Anti-Armour roles (ref. Battle of Hoth). Gungans just use bigger boomas.

I have structured my plan of SWGB2 around these two beliefs, so that ordinarily, civ's won't have an Anti-Air Trooper. The Rebel Alliance is the only civ who does have an Anti-Air Trooper, because they have no Anti-Air Mechs, and this Trooper carries a rocket launcher. Most (but still not all) civs have an Anti-Armour Trooper.

You see, while I don't think infantry-held rocket launchers are contradictory in nature to Star Wars, we certainly know they are not used widely, in fact we have never seen one on the battlefield in 5 movies spanning almost 40 years. As such I am limiting their use to only one civ, rather than giving everyone one, which will not only be unStarWarsy but will introduce a large amount of genericism that I want to move away from.

DK_Viceroy
10-16-2003, 06:21 AM
I agree about rockets but can someone tell me when rockets were used surface to air or air to surface i've never seen that in the films or is there some increadibly obscure version that shows this?

Admiral Vostok
10-16-2003, 08:13 AM
Surface to Air I can think of no examples.

Air to Surface we see with every single rocket from a Republic Gunship during the Battle of Geonosis.

Frozted_MM's
10-17-2003, 06:08 AM
I saw surface to air then surface :D hail fire droid


I think troopers should have a patriot missile system strapped to there back so they can fire at them that way :cool:

lukeiamyourdad
10-18-2003, 12:04 AM
Is this debate over yet or what? I'm not sure...It gets confusing...:confused:

Frozted_MM's
10-18-2003, 04:37 AM
My patriot missile system idea is the best it is the best balance idea ever. If you dont like that some jet pack troops which can chase those fighters seems more star-warsy

Admiral Vostok
10-18-2003, 05:44 AM
I think the debate is over, and I'm keeping things the way they are.

Just waiting on my web host to finish changing their server... or until I find a host that was as good as they were...

Frozted_MM's
10-18-2003, 07:19 AM
LOL!!

Bummer you don't like my idea :(

Admiral Vostok
10-18-2003, 08:21 AM
Well Frozted, I don't see how a patriot missile system is any more StarWarsy than a handheld rocket launcher.

But thanks for the suggestion, keep making them :D

DK_Viceroy
10-18-2003, 06:57 PM
Frosted please try and come up with some useful ideas while that would sound good it's a rip off of the rocketeer from RA2 so that idea was about as much use as a pair of nitting needles to a penguin

Frozted_MM's
10-18-2003, 10:29 PM
Well that idea was totally the best ever *wink* *wink* lets see if DK can work out that it was all a j/k *wink* *wink* ;)

Darth Windu
10-19-2003, 11:31 AM
Well, i dont think there ever was a debate. Vostok isnt changing his idea, neither am i. Having said that, i still firmly believe that my idea is better for both gameplay and realism.

lukeiamyourdad
10-19-2003, 02:22 PM
:confused:

Seriously if that wasn't a debate then I don't know what is...

Frozted_MM's
10-20-2003, 04:50 AM
Gameplay, realism and alot of court cases :D

Admiral Vostok
10-20-2003, 10:46 AM
LOL!

AU_Skythe
10-20-2003, 11:06 AM
Vostok when are u putting the rest of ur templates on!!! skythe is eager lol

Admiral Vostok
10-21-2003, 02:23 AM
Okay, having heard nothing from my old website host, I went out and found a new place to put all my stuff. So I've finally made the changes to the Confederacy, plus added some stuff in the Civ Outline Overview about how the Command Centers work, and finally put up the Galactic Empire design. Check it all out here (http://vostok.150m.com/) or follow the link in my sig.

Admiral Vostok
10-23-2003, 04:37 AM
Something else I decided to add:

In the two newest RTS games I've played (AoM and C&C:G) there is some way for most of the civs to gain additional funding even when their resources have dried up. This is even evident in SWGB1 with Holocron gathering, but the self-reliability is more pronounced in AoM (with the ability to trade with yourself, Town Center to Market) and C&C:G (at least with the Chinese and their Hackers... I haven't played the other civs yet).

I thought a unique way for each civ to gan additional wealth would be a really cool idea. So far I've only done it for the Confederacy and the Empire, as they're the only civs up at the moment (someone please give me feedback on the Empire!). The Confederacy uses Internal Trading to gain extra Wealth, while the Empire uses Taxation. At the moment these extra Wealth gathering abilities are either listed under the Resource Gathering part or the Trading part.

lukeiamyourdad
10-23-2003, 09:11 PM
About the Empire:

Only one detail, why haven't you made the ASP-7 and the Slave mroe like the Villager and Dwarf from AoM?
Something to make it more interesting to do both then just repairing.

Frozted_MM's
10-24-2003, 02:01 AM
I lik eht idea about the extra funding seems more real to have other sources of resources then just collecting them for themselves.

Here are some others I came up with-

Maybe for the TF they deploy a scrap Metal Pick-Up Refinery anything mechanical that is abandoned on the field Scavenger Droid scan the field and pick up the material take it back to the lot and grind all the resources out of it(Even enemy materials). Any unit, worker that you don't want instead of deleting it send it here and get resources for it. Roughly you'll get 50% of resources back of the unit costs.

Research on this building could be instead of refunding some of the cost of the metal it just uses it to make droids every full load creates 2 Battle Droids. (But are only half as good as build ones).



That Confed idea is good but it would work better for Naboo seeing as there towns trade and the Confed are one big organisation.

Confed would be good with the bounty idea kinda like on C&C Generals every unit they kill they get paid a small amount eacg unit like 2 credits each troop, 10 credits each small mech, 2 credits each worker, 50 credits each hvy mech, heroes/commanders 100 credits (if added).

Something like that.

Admiral Vostok
10-24-2003, 02:39 AM
I had a similar idea for the Trade Federation in mind, actually Frozted. As for the Naboo, I have a better idea for them, and I think my current Confederacy idea works better than bounties for kills.

Frozted_MM's
10-24-2003, 07:52 AM
Yea the bounty idea would be perfect for a civ like the hutts (which will never happen)

I don't have anyhing against the Confed idea I like just throwing in some other stuff.

Admiral Vostok
10-24-2003, 09:19 AM
That's fine. More than welcome :)

There's a couple of points I put in the Empire that haven't been widely discussed on the forums:

1) Prefab Shelters provide a smaller amount of pop, forcing the Empire to build more and thus take up more room.

2) The use of the Imperial Officer (variations on this idea have been suggested, but I think mine is workable).


As an aside, I did some in-depth research concerning the AoM Titans Expansion. No doubt you've done the same, Sith... or perhaps you already have it to play. It seems that Gaia has a unique trait called Lush which is very similar to StarCraft's Zerg Creep and WarCraft 3's Undead Blight... this leads me to believe that our Swamp idea for Gungans will work, if Ensemble has now adopted it from Blizzard without a problem...

lukeiamyourdad
10-25-2003, 01:43 AM
YAY! Long live da swamp!

hey vostok you still haven't answered to my question...

Admiral Vostok
10-25-2003, 01:03 PM
You'll have to define exactly what you mean by "more like the Villager and Dwarf".

Frozted_MM's
10-25-2003, 08:04 PM
He wants to add a little bit of middle earth into your idea :p

lukeiamyourdad
10-26-2003, 04:55 PM
You see, you slave is rather useless, having but disadvantages and a single advantage being it's low cost. Unless the cost is ridiculously low, I don't see why I should use them.

Frozted_MM's
10-27-2003, 04:39 AM
I see luke's point if they cost less but still repair and collect less whats the point of them especially since they can't build.

Maybe you should remove them or if you place them near a group of workers the workers collect and build faster maybe....

Admiral Vostok
10-27-2003, 05:16 AM
Hmm, I see your point. Okay, how about the Slave gathers Wealth resources faster than the ASP-7? This is because slaves often get sent to work in Spice Mines and the like.

Frozted_MM's
10-27-2003, 09:38 AM
I like it should be the other way round slaves to get the organic resources food,carbon and droids to get the wealth,metal since it would take slaves longer to break down metal and droids are computers which can be programmed to make wealth transactions immdiately so slaves for farms and tree cutting. Droids for black market dealings and metal collecting.


Hope that made sense

Admiral Vostok
10-27-2003, 10:24 AM
Okay, no problemo.

Any comments on the prefab shelter idea or the Imperial Officer? I'm putting the Galactic Republic up soon, so I want to finalise the Empire.

Frozted_MM's
10-28-2003, 04:13 AM
I have no problem with your prefab idea. The imperial officer isnt bad but he needs to be able to fight all commander type units like this should be able to fight in some form or another. Even just a standard pistol would do just so he is completely vulnerable on the battlefield.

Admiral Vostok
10-28-2003, 09:53 AM
Well that's the idea! He's meant to be extremely vulnerable!

Galactic Republic goes up tomorrow night, and it is probably the least like it was in SWGB1. As in the most unique ways of doing things. Though I haven't finished everyone... but the Galactic Republic should spark some controversy - that's right, the Gunship!

lukeiamyourdad
10-28-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
... but the Galactic Republic should spark some controversy - that's right, the Gunship!

Uh oh...bad memories...coming back up...

Frozted_MM's
10-29-2003, 06:03 AM
VULNERABLE SINCE WHEN DID ANY ARMY IN HISTORY/STAR WARS HISTORY LEAVE A OFFICER VULNERABLE!!!

NEVER!!!!

Youll know if I hate the gunship ill flame it and chuck it away :D

Darth Windu
10-29-2003, 11:16 AM
luke - i have the Gunship in my template and there hasnt been any problems...yet

lukeiamyourdad
10-29-2003, 07:20 PM
Frozted- I'm gonna bump the gunship thread back up if it still isn't cloed just for you to see:p

Admiral Vostok
10-29-2003, 11:09 PM
Frozted - You misunderstand. Without an army, the Officer is vulnerable. But when is an Officer without an army? If you send an Officer out by himself he will die. That's why his best location is hanging around the base increasing Worker's abilities, are in the middle of a large army commanding their powers. Sending him with a small strike force is not advisable, because he may be over-run. This is entirely realistic, and as such he doesn't need an attack at all.

Now everyone go and check out my Galactic Republic (http://vostok.150m.com/GalacticRepublic.html) and the Gunship that lies therein...

lukeiamyourdad
10-30-2003, 02:34 AM
Wow, Vostok pulled a Windu almost unbalanced gunship.

ok...

I suggest first that you lower the gunship's carry capacity, ten is excessive.

It should be at least weaker against air units, having seeker rockets makes it a bit too strong vs other aircrafts who have to use lasers to destroy it, you get the idea.

Clone Sniper- Why haven't you made an Ion rifle trooper instead? You could then leave snipers to Naboo and Rebels.

Dropship- What do you mean by 10 mechs(carry capacity)? It's a bit unclear there. Do you mean 10 pop? 'Cause 10 mechs would mean 10 AT-TE:eek: :confused:

That's all for now

Admiral Vostok
10-30-2003, 02:55 AM
Gunship - Okay, I'll make the carry capacity 8. Any less and it gets unrealistic.

As for it being strong against Air, this is intentional. You may notice that the Republic has no ground-based Anti-Air unlike most civs. This means the Gunship is the only unit that can take out Aircraft well. It is less well armoured and has fewer hit points than most Aircraft, plus it is very expensive and will cost more Population, so I think in the end it all balances out. I should add that although the rockets are good against Aircraft, they have quite a long reload time, during which the Gunship is very vulnerable.

I think my Gunship is balanced. Whereas Windu's not only had powerful weapons and a transport ability but was also shielded, well armoured and fast, mine is not. My weapons are indeed powerful, yet the Gunship is unshielded, has few Hit Points, and is the second slowest Aircraft (not including Transports) after the Gungan one. I shall edit the document to make these points clearer.

Sniper - An ion rifle trooper would be good against Mechs, right? I wanted to leave that for the Clone Bikers. There is a bit of footage that was cut from the final film where you see a few Clones on Speederbikes zooming under the legs of Homing Spider Droids. They throw grenades at it, destroying it. I thought this looked so cool I wanted to include it. As for the Naboo and Rebels, there is no reason they can't have a sniper as well. Give me some more reasons to change it and I might consider.

Dropship - As described in the Transports (http://vostok.150m.com/UnitClasses.html#Transports) description, it means 10 population worth of mechs.

Frozted_MM's
10-30-2003, 03:43 AM
I don't like the movable buildings at all.

How do your build support units cause it looks like you have a building called support units and sounds kinda weird.

Admiral Vostok
10-30-2003, 04:05 AM
Yeah I'm uncomfortable with the name too. I'll think of something better and change it.

Frozted_MM's
10-30-2003, 05:43 AM
Support bunker, Republic Force Fire support base


lol something like that

lukeiamyourdad
10-30-2003, 08:52 PM
Gunship-hmmm...I guess...let's wait for the others' opinions.

Sniper/Ion trooper- Ion troopers are obvious in the movie but republic speeder bikes weren't even in it. I think both should be in but have different caracteristics.
To avoid giving the Republic too many anti-mech units, you could turn the AT-TE back to the simple all-purpose vehicle instead of an anti-mech.

As for snipers, they're hit-and-fade sneek around units, something that the Republic obviously isn't specialized in(taken in the context that the ARC trooper doesn't exist).

Admiral Vostok
10-30-2003, 10:18 PM
Okay I pretty much agree with everything you've said there, Luke's Dad. I shall make the necessary changes over the weekend. They'll be:

- Removal of the Sniper and addition of the Ion Rifler... need a better name though...

- Change the AT-TE to have no bonus attack but be pretty good all round, like a Assault Mech but less powerful.

Frozted_MM's
10-31-2003, 12:41 AM
K here is what should happen totally get the republic gunship and dropship out of the support lot they need a special drop hanger or something to be created from. Once built the gunship should come with 2 rockets and must return to the drop hanger to reload more rockets its load can be upgraded to 2 more rocket cell capsules but it takes twice as much time to reload 4 rockets in (2 rockets = 50 secs 4 = 90secs) This drop bay should be an auto repair also repairing it slower than worker repair but still effective. If a gunship is to idle in the skys you can set it so it comes back to the drop hanger/zone/bay whatever.

There is no way a diplomat will walk to another trade lot and get resources they are speakers not workers. Maybe this negotiations hall could have special econ upgrades for the republic like could tax its business industries more and get funds in that way since Coruscant is covered with factories and cities the Politications and dip into its funds or its war ojectives. But please change the trader name.

Umm support lot doesn't sound any better support units in SWGB1 are your workers who fuel your econ and gunship isnt a support unit its the heart of the skys in the Republic Army. The speeder bike, All Terrain Tactical Enforcer and the Self Propelled Heavy Artillery-Turbolaser should be in Machine Yard but the speeder can only be unlocked when a Machine Yard and cloning facility is built. This prevents the support lot being an over powered building to many great units can be built from it and air should be seperated from mechs in a building.

Im kinda having second thoughts about the moveable buildings but clone facilities and mech yards should not be movable buildings a worker will have to build them there it makes it fair since we didn't see any buildings like that being moved.Drop ships should move about same speed as the air cruiser in swgb1 when moving buildings. Drop hangers should be able to so the gunship can reload in the frontline very cool but it should be vulnerbale when reloading and by the time it starts getting attacked and starts to take off it would have been destroyed.

I disagree about them being great vs fighters unless the enemy fighter is right next to a laser or right in front and get rocketed but there rockets were not tht accurate lets be honest. So since they are so great vs ground units they should not be that great vses fighters. Jedi Starfighters are the ones you need your countering fighters fast and very accurate it is a force (literally) to be rekoned with especially in waves. With the starfighter its either mass them for dog battles in the sky or scout with them. It has shields and can auto repair thanx to the artoo in the back but its armor is very weak. 2 Light missiles are loaded in it good vs fighters they can not be fired at ground units it must rely on its lasers for this job.

Radars- Like the CnC series radars should be deployed at the command centers to reveal the mini map since alot of communication jamming was used in SW battles I think radars would be a great idea once destroyed mini map is gone so deployong mulitple radars at mulitple command centers wouldnt be a bad idea.

Confed and Trade Federation- Since they cant be promoted they should have a Droid Control Device deploy at the command center to receive signals and do better in battle should add a little more balance.

Hope you read since there are some great ideas in there excuse my spelling and stuff cause I'm not reading it again.

lukeiamyourdad
10-31-2003, 12:54 AM
That's what I thought, the JS should have been the anti-air fighter. Perhaps removing its stealth capabilities and making them unable to fire at ground units could balance their anti-air force using abilities.

Radar- I thought that was the most annoying thing in all the CnC games. It's technically realistic but very annoying.
Sometimes, in certain scenarios you didn't know where you were going...

swphreak
10-31-2003, 01:15 AM
Ok, this is the first civ template I've looked at. And I like Vostoks a lot because of his organized webpage makes life easier and doesn't hurt my eyes. I can't wait til the Rep and Empire are finished ;)

As for the Radar, The radar wasn't much of a hassle unless you were the GLA. The GLA had to build like 2 buildings before being able to get radar.

I guess there would be some new unit for radar jamming? How would that work?

Admiral Vostok
10-31-2003, 01:17 AM
Most of your ideas are C&C based, whereas I'm doing things more AoM based. Here's what I have to say:

- I will change the places the units are built, because contrary to what I said, it would be cool to have some more possible units. So I'll leave room for other units (which as I've stated I won't make up).

- No to reloading. This is one of the things I hate about some RTS games. Reloading would be done like the Comanche in C&C:G, in that it just has a delay.

- That is the point of the Diplomat, he's not going there and getting the cash, he's staying at the ally's place, negotiating with them to tribute to the Republic. He's staying, because I think it's a good idea.

- Will change the Support Lot thing.

- I think the moveable buildings work well as they are.

- I'm hesitant to make the Jedi Starfighter the primary Anti-Air unit. It should be more of a special abilities based unit. Chances are we'll see more of the Republic's Aircraft in the opening battle of Episode III, so it's hard to say definively. However I think due to the Gunship's rockets being seekers, they would be good against Air. Picture the gunship working kind of like the Comanche in C&C:G, except it can transport and is slower and weaker.

Frozted_MM's
10-31-2003, 02:49 AM
Troops should be upgraded to radar infiltration maybe or perhaps it is only a jedi thing.

The jedi starfighter was the republic air support lucas didnt add them cause he thought the battle went on for way to long and didn't want to keep the light show going and start boring us. So he kept it low key. So I think it should be the anti-air unit.

The reloading thing is the only realistic idea with its powerful lasers it will be way to overpowered people will just build 5 gunships and call it a game. I think it shouldn't be a bomber and a fighter all in one make a decision cause it is a little to overpowered the way it is. A delay should be at least 1 min per rocket cause it has 1 back laser, 2 trooper mounted shell lasers and I think it has 2 more on the front thats 5 lasers so rockets really don't need to be used that much anyways so delay should be a good minute or so.

LOL! a diplomat walking well now I've seen it all.

I really want the whole game moved away from the AGE SERIES its been done way to many times and it is getting old whats done is done and that based engine is over.

Radars or communications center would be a good idea to make things more interesting.

And ive never played generals once so my ideas aint based on CnC that much only the radar comes close to anything CnC.

You can keep the forward which has realism all over it but where is the balance there is none Republic will be the war machine civ if they can forward like you say they can.

Remember vostok they are 2 civs fighting for the land not fighting from another planet just keep that in mind

Admiral Vostok
10-31-2003, 03:44 AM
Gunship/Jedi Starfighter: Well I'll change the Jedi Starfighter to be the main Anti-Air unit. I've already said the gunship has a long reload time, and it will turn out quite like the US Camanche in CC Generals, which I think works in that game and isn't overpowered. The main differences between the Gunship and the Comanche are that the Gunship can transport 8 pop worth of infantry and doesn't have the Comanche's rocket barrage special ability. The Gunship is also less well armoured with less Hit Points. I strongly believe this will work. I should also note for the purposes of gameplay the Gunship won't attack with all five lasers, that would be way too overpowered.

Diplomat: You may have missed the fact that the Diplomat doesn't walk between Trade Points, it stays at the ally's one permanently. The best thing to do is ly him in on a Gunship or walk him in inside an AT-TE.

Forward building: Well you're right about the forward building. I'll make it that you can only move buildings to within a radius of a Forward Command Center. This will limit the Republic's forward Building a bit but still make them quite good at it (as they should be).

Frozted_MM's
10-31-2003, 04:13 AM
Alos make it so if the forward command center is destroyed the moved buildings shut down and cannot build units. Unless built there by a worker they will be unable to build units.

K well the diplomat thing can stay then since I understand now.

Maybe you can select the gunship and select which ones you want active like click side lasers for the powerful troop control lasers to fire at units on the way or choose the front ones to shoot at enemy from a distance or choose the back one to shoot at units while flying passed.

Admiral Vostok
10-31-2003, 04:53 AM
Good idea with the Forward Command Center. I may just do that.

As for selecting the Gunship's lasers, that's an interesting idea but I don't really see much point to it. If we only allow the Gunship to shoot two lasers at a time, it will seem as though they're selecting which lasers to use themself, rather than having us choose.

Darth Windu
10-31-2003, 08:57 AM
Well, contrary to Vostok's blustering, my Gunship is not 'powerful weapons and a transport ability but was also shielded, well armoured and fast'.

In fact, my Gunship has the following capabilities-
- very expensive
- slow build time
- medium armour
- caries 8 infantry pop slots (refer to my tempate doc)
- good vs Infantry, Mechs
- poor vs Ships, Buildings
- cannot fire at Aircraft

this is because the way i see it, the Gunship is the main weapon of the Republic, much like an airborne AT-AT.

lukeiamyourdad
10-31-2003, 01:36 PM
For God's sakes Windu, don't call it an airborne AT-AT...don't...

Let's find a way to settle this quickly. Most elders migt be pissed by another gunship thread.

swphreak
10-31-2003, 02:05 PM
I thought "Air Cruisers" where the "AT ATs of the sky."

If it's gonna be anything like the AC, I don't like it.

Frozted_MM's
10-31-2003, 06:38 PM
Windu keep your ideas to your own post this is not a thread where you can compare your ideas to vostok.

They were not shielded and is far from being as powerful as an AT AT.

lukeiamyourdad
10-31-2003, 11:03 PM
I guess we are putting more attention into Vostok's template then his...

I guess you guys don't undertand.
In the time of the Great Evil Gunship thread, Windu used to talk about the Gunship as an airborne assault mech(I could be wrong my memory is fading).
We don't want anyone ever calling the Gunship AT-AT of the sky...

Frozted_MM's
11-01-2003, 04:04 AM
LOL I just found out gunship has 7 lasers 4 cannon lasers and 3 light turrent lasers

So they are a strong aircraft.

Ohhhhh and the Confed pulse cannon thing is also great vs fighters I just found out that droids fired it at the gunships which use to through it out of control or destroy it in the air.

Darth Windu
11-01-2003, 07:19 AM
Phreak - no, it's not like the SWGB Air Cruiser

Luke - i mentioned that it was an 'airborne AT-AT' because it forms the nucleus of any Republic assault, and has comparable firepower. The Gunship has the unique ability to land infantry into a hot LZ, then perform CAS for those infantry for the duration or until they are shot down.

Admiral Vostok
11-01-2003, 12:51 PM
It shouldn't be anything like an AT-AT.

- AT-ATs have very strong armour and heaps of hit points. Gunships have very weak armour and few hit points.
- AT-ATs have a huge range with a powerful area effect blast. Gunships have a short range with many less powerful lasers.
- AT-AT is very slow. Gunship is relatively fast.
- You transport units in an AT-AT for protection. You transport units in a Gunship for mobility.

DK_Viceroy
11-01-2003, 08:06 PM
I Know you'll all kill me for asking but would a star wars cartoon show be EU?


because if you lot hink it isn't then your unit problems' for the republic are sorted Vostok i was checking Star Wars .com and i saw lambada like fighter that belonged to the republic that was anti fighter so that might solve your problems

I LOVE the idea about getting buildings ordered in it's like tiberian Dawn with NOD ordering in their units that was so cool.

Frozted_MM's
11-01-2003, 09:26 PM
Well buildings aint ordered in they are built but are movable by dropships.

lukeiamyourdad
11-02-2003, 01:15 AM
Or maybe prebuilded and transported on the battlefield la Protoss...

Perhaps we should wait on ep3 for more Republic Units. They seem to miss a lot.

Frozted_MM's
11-02-2003, 04:01 AM
If you go to www.lucasarts.com and click on there clone wars official site there are a few republic units that were not in the film.

Admiral Vostok
11-02-2003, 05:47 AM
Viceroy, Frozted - Yes they are EU, but as they don't violate Vostok's Laws of Non-Canon Units I might include them. I saw them on the official site not long ago, though didn't do too much reading into them.

I might update the Republic with a couple of these units to fill in the holes, and in the process fix up the gunship a bit more. Also due to many assignments I should be doing instead of posting here and writing civ designs, the next update of the Gungans may be a while coming.

Admiral Vostok
11-03-2003, 10:34 AM
Okay folks, whilst being bored stiff by assignments I re-did the Republic with suggestions from above and added units from *GASP* EU. I decided people were right and they needed more units, so I took what I could from some of the better EU suggested by Viceroy and Frozted.

I also changed the workings of the Jedi Starfighter, added Luke's Dad's Ion Gunner, and tweaked a couple of other minor things.

Admiral Vostok
11-08-2003, 01:47 AM
Is anyone keen to see me continue this? Or should I stop bumping it? Gungans should be up Tuesday.

lukeiamyourdad
11-08-2003, 01:53 AM
We want you to continue man!

It's pretty fun to read and up to now it's the best organized template we have.

Frozted_MM's
11-08-2003, 10:01 AM
Continue I wanna see the other civs.

Admiral Vostok
11-09-2003, 10:31 AM
Well then, I shal continue. Here's the Gungan Grand Army (http://vostok.150m.com/GunganGrandArmy.html) up a bit early, because I got bored of assignments. I had a lot of fun writing this one, especially making up the names, but there's also some really characterful units I've added from the movies. My favourite so far!

However, I couldn't think of a good way for Gungans to earn extra Wealth, like the Confederacy's internal trading, the Empire's taxation and the Republic's Jedi meditation. Anyone got a good one?

lukeiamyourdad
11-09-2003, 01:56 PM
Perhaps since they're not really into wealth they might not need a way to gain extra wealth.

I never saw the gungans being big traders and greedy people anyway.

Admiral Vostok
11-09-2003, 10:37 PM
Hmm, I guess you're right. Though giving them nothing would weaken them... I've decided since they are one of the few civs that can build farms (the previous three can't) then that is good enough compensation. I should really be saying who gets to build farms and who does not... I'll put it in the Civ Outlines Intro (http://vostok.150m.com/Outlines.html).

DK_Viceroy
11-13-2003, 06:28 AM
For The gungas in terms of wealth/credits/whatever

you could have Booma Export's or something or maybe Plasma exports since in the star wars galaxy plasma is an expensive resource but is found naturally occuring in naboo and harvestable at a cheap cost maybe you could have a unit that flies up to space with a load of plasma and you get some credits/wealth/whatever and it would go underwater collect the plasma and go into space or outof the screen if your not having any space combat.

Just an Idea

lukeiamyourdad
11-13-2003, 08:28 PM
I think that should be for the Naboo. The Gungans don't seem to be wealth reliant anyway...

Admiral Vostok
11-14-2003, 12:08 AM
I'll leave them how they are for now in terms of wealth.

What do you guys think of the rest of the Gungans design?

lukeiamyourdad
11-14-2003, 12:51 AM
It's cool enough as it is now.

by the way is the gungan anti-air mech a catapult? I would suggest a ballista if it isn't already one.

perhaps shield bearers should give the bonuses only when in formations with other troopers. it would suck if a gungan army is scattered and you have to shoot down the few shield bearers that are in the middle of no where.

Admiral Vostok
11-14-2003, 04:00 AM
Yeah I guess they would need to be in formation.

You like all the Gungan names and stuff? That was fun making up those words.

lukeiamyourdad
11-14-2003, 11:32 PM
Yes it was fun. Making up the names isn't hard anyway.
You just have to take a little gungan accent:p

Admiral Vostok
11-15-2003, 02:18 AM
What about some of the other ideas that haven't been previously discussed? Mainly:

:jarjar: The Glurrg and Aqua-Glurrg

:gungan: Water-like and healing effects of Swamp

:jarjar: The Battle Wagon

:gungan: The Sacred Place

lukeiamyourdad
11-15-2003, 02:48 PM
1.Glurrg: I'm ok with it. It seems fine having only one of them at the beginning.

2.Swamp: Perhaps it can overpower the gungans over their own land.

3.Battle Wagon: seems fine...

4.Sacred Place: I forgot to mention this I think, but it seems to encourage roaching. Making it invisible might be too much.

DK_Viceroy
11-15-2003, 03:55 PM
it would be interesting to see a cloaked building like the sacred place and how you would balance it but i don't think it would stick even i agree that Cloaking should be kept for units and they should mainly be space units and commando units.

Frozted_MM's
11-15-2003, 09:27 PM
K I like most of your ideas for the gungans but...

Gungan troops should be able to swim in shallow,medium water maybe turn it into a t2 reasearch of something but they cannot throw boomas while in the water leaving them vulnerable to boat or air strikes.

Battle wagons should be able to self unload sending boomas flying at the other army imagine a few of those things on a hill while an army is running up ouch thats gotta hurt. NOTE* not recommended unloading these guys behind your army ;)*

I like the sacred place it just makes your enemy have to buy detector units 1 scout could reveil it and they don't cost that much......

I seriously don't like only half farming and the other half don't it will give the ones that don't a serious advantage not having to worry about farms.

Make the aqua glurrgs at the shipyard. Or need a shipyard before being able to be built at the command center.

I think water healing should be taken out they already have enough advantages on water as it is without going over board. It may also give them a home field advantage opening up nothing but defensive gungan players winning cause of that healing factor.

Since you guys haven't given gungans a wealth thing yet I made one up. Gungans are based in water on naboo. So gungan builds collector vats workers aqua glurrgs dive down and collect wealth/treasure that has been left there for centuries just waiting to be found.

The only other problem I found out was gungans are virtually paralysed on a map with no water So since all gungan units are all supplied by them then they should all be a little cheaper than most armies.

Admiral Vostok
11-16-2003, 02:04 AM
Okay I'll get rid of the healing Swamp thing. It's too much like Undead Blight/Gaia Lush if it heals anyway.

Shipyard (Bongomekker) needed for Aqua-Glurrgs is good.

I'll also make it that Sacred Places don't count as sustaining buildings in that you'll be defeated even if you still have Sacred Places left. This is like Prefab Shelters and Resource Points.

I don't know about letting the boomas out of the Battle Wagon, Jar Jar did that accidentally and it isn't a Gungan tactic. I incorporated the elemt of losing the Boomas in that when it is destroyed it damages units around it, as all the Boomas roll out.

Not sure about the Wealth idea, Frozted, as they'll be weakened on waterless maps. I think they'll just get a huge Farm bonus. The thing about farms is that those who don't get them have a Wealth gaining ability that makes up for it, while those that do have Wealth-gaining abilities that aren't as good, or even non-existant in the Gungan case.

Frozted_MM's
11-16-2003, 07:45 AM
I see so food replaces wealth in some civs.

wook,gungan,rebels
food

rep,confed,tf,naboo,empire
wealth

About the wagon hmmmmm so you need one to load the catapult and stuff?

Maybe if one is next to a mech that fires those boomas it should give it a faster reload time.

CONFED!!!!!!

The pulse cannon was used against air and was controlled by a droid kinda like a strike mech of tf but a huge cannon on the front which demolished mechs, troops and fired at air.

Frozted_MM's
11-16-2003, 07:46 AM
I see so food replaces wealth in some civs.

wook,gungan,rebels
food

rep,confed,tf,naboo,empire
wealth

About the wagon hmmmmm so you need one to load the catapult and stuff?

Maybe if one is next to a mech that fires those boomas it should give it a faster reload time.

CONFED!!!!!!

The pulse cannon was used against air and was controlled by a droid kinda like a strike mech of tf but a huge cannon on the front which demolished mechs, troops and fired at air.

AU_Skythe
11-16-2003, 10:12 AM
What about an amphibious /slash/ terrestrial gungan trooper? Same as normal ones but cost a bit more?

I like the booma cart idea but not the spillage part of it.
I like the sarced place idea as well.
Just a thought how would your maps work? Would there be water on every map?

Admiral Vostok
11-16-2003, 09:27 PM
The maps would be fairly similar to the current maps, so no to water being on every map. I might make amphibious troopers a late-game upgrade, allowing them to swim but slower than they can walk, and unable to attack.

Frozted_MM's
11-17-2003, 10:54 AM
HALT!!!!!

The swimming gungans is my idea MINE!!!!!

;) lucky for you I aint making a template but I guess you can steal it :P

K will you have running in this game cause in swgb 1 its like they were walking to battle and when retreating walking away lol.

Maybe there should be a run feature that last up to 30 secs and needs a 1 min energy recharge for ORGANIC troops.

Admiral Vostok
11-17-2003, 09:06 PM
Frozted, we discussed amphibious Gungan Troopers before you even came here.

As for running, I think it sounds a bit complicated to have a special ability. Perhaps their movement depends on their stance. So Troopers set on Aggressive stance will run, Defensive stance will walk, and Stand Ground/No Stance just stand there. It would be cool to incorporate running this way, then you could have a battle like Geonosis where all the Battle Droids and Super Battle Droids were running (set to Aggressive) into the Clone Troopers, who were progressing slowly (set to Defensive). At Naboo, the Trade Federation was on Defensive (marching slowly into battle) while the Gungans were Standing Ground - yet retreated Aggressively.

EDIT: Actually, having thought about this, it would be great to expand the stance idea, which has fallen into not being used in Age of Mythology. I think these only apply to Infantry, but I propose the following additions to the stance system:

Aggressive: Units seek out and attack fresh targets. Aggressive Infantry run into and out of battle, which increases their speed by 50%. They cannot shoot while moving, but when stopped can shoot to their fullest capacity.
Defensive: Units will attack enemy units, but return to their position once the enemy is killed or retreats too far away. Defensive Infantry advance and falls back at a walking pace, but this has the added advantage of allowing them to shoot on the move, making a slow advance or fighting retreat. However shooting on the move decreases their Accuracy by 50%. Ranged Defensive Infantry wil automatically make fighting retreats when overwhelmed, so they automatically move back from advancing enemy, firing on the move.
Stand Ground: Units will attack enemy in range but do no move from their position. If Infantry Standing Ground are ordered to move, they move at a walking pace but cannot shoot as though they were Defensive. However, units ordered to Stand Ground are usually defending a superior position, and are well dig in, so their Rate of Fire is increased by 50%.
No Stance: Confers no special circumstances.

Darth Windu
11-18-2003, 08:20 AM
Not bad Vostok. Sounds a LOT like 'Star Trek Armada' and Armada 2, but still, a vast improvement on the stances avaliable in SWGB.

Admiral Vostok
11-18-2003, 09:35 AM
What do they have in Star Trek Armada?

lukeiamyourdad
11-18-2003, 07:10 PM
Anyone thought about a "attack-while-moving" skill?

Frozted_MM's
11-20-2003, 06:15 AM
I think they should all be able to shoot while running but only in frontwards conflict no shooting from the left while running to the right. Fighters would be the exception depends on there laser alignments.

lukeiamyourdad
11-20-2003, 07:51 PM
Probably...Maybe it could be a gunship ability or something. It's the only fighter I can think of which can do that.

So ok no strafing. That should be fine.

Admiral Vostok
11-20-2003, 09:38 PM
I'd say all units have to face the direction they fire in for simplicity, though some units like the AAT and the different Naboo speeders have turrets that rotate independently of the main vehicle.

Though I'm hesitant to give the Gunship more abilities, it would be cool to include it's guns on different facings. Perhaps just giving it a weak attack from the back would suffice.

DK_Viceroy
11-22-2003, 09:59 AM
Hmm for fighters it should propably only be the gunsip and the geonosian fighter since only those 2 had turrets that either moved in different directions or were actually seen to move.

Geonosian Fighter

Able to fire 90 degrees left and right and 45 degrees up or down

Gunship

Able to fire almost at any ground target but not at many air targets but the more firepower needed means more clone troopers must be onboard to man the multiple turrets

Darth Windu
11-24-2003, 02:37 AM
Viceroy - the Geonosian Starfighter does NOT have a turret. In the film we can clearly see that it only fires forward.

Admiral Vostok
11-24-2003, 09:01 PM
Well Windu, without resorting to the EU which states it does have a rotatable turret, evidence suggests this to be the case anyway.

The laser turret itself is a ball design, and is actually ver similar in appearance to the ball turrets on the nose of the Gunship, which we know do have some rotational ability. Also, there wasn't a situation where the Geonosians could make use of a roatatable turret, so we don't know it doesn't exist.

On the other hand, I fail to see what use a single rotating weapon on a one-man fighter would be.

saberhagen
11-25-2003, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
I fail to see what use a single rotating weapon on a one-man fighter would be.

In real life, absolutely no use at all (remember the Bolton and Paul Defiant? No, and there's a reason why it never became as famous as the Spitfire.). However, this isn't real life, this is Star Wars.

Darth Windu
11-25-2003, 10:55 AM
Actually i do recall the Defiant, but the main reason that failed wasnt so much that it had a turret but that it had to forward-firing weapons, along with the added weight of the turret and 2nd crew member making it more sluggish than its Luftwaffe opponents.

Getting back to the point, Vostok, there is evidence that it doesnt rotate.

1. Dooku's 'ball' cockpit doesnt rotate
2. The Gunship ball doesnt rotate, its on a mechanical arm
3. If it did rotrate 90 degrees to left or right, it would have made a lot more sense to fly alongside the Gunship and fire into it's side rather than its behind, as its side would present a much larger target along with the option of killing the pilot. As this didnt happen, it can be conluded that the Ball doesnt rotate.

Admiral Vostok
11-25-2003, 10:55 AM
Well sorry for the delay but the Rebel Alliance (http://vostok.150m.com/RebelAlliance.html) is now up. Check it out.

I agree with your post Windu except for point 2. I was referring to the lasers on the nose (and for that matter the ones on the wings and at the rear) not the two ball cockpits on arms at the sides.

lukeiamyourdad
11-25-2003, 08:08 PM
Interesting.

Why don't you give something else then a flame attack to your scout. It's kinda weird...mounted soldiers have never been seen using flamethrowers.

Also the medium transport should be built by an astromech droid(put realism aside). Depending on the time it takes to build one, in early games this can be a big handicap.

Other then that it's fine, your trench version is also nice.

Admiral Vostok
11-25-2003, 08:46 PM
I thought the flamer would add a bit of variety. After all, we don't see tauntaun riders with ranged attacks either.

I disagree about the Medium Transport. It will be buildable from the start of the game, and since you can build it at the Airfield as well as a the Alliance Centre I don't think there is a disadvantage. At the start of the game the Medium Transport will be the only thing you can build at the Airfield. If you get an Astromech to build it it is too similar to other civ's prefab shelter equivalents. As compensation though the Alliance Centre will support more population than other Command Centre equivalents.

lukeiamyourdad
11-25-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
1.I thought the flamer would add a bit of variety. After all, we don't see tauntaun riders with ranged attacks either.

2.As compensation though the Alliance Centre will support more population than other Command Centre equivalents.

1. Ok well...hmmm...I guess so but still it seems weird.

2. seems fine now, you should add that to avoid further confusion.

Darth Windu
11-26-2003, 03:46 AM
1. Personally, i think flamer's are a bad idea. Trying to keep as close to Star Wars as possible, i have actually updated my confederacy idea with the 'IG Lancer Droid' replacing the previous Confed scout unit.

As for trenches Vostok, it seems rather complicated to build trenches that can be destroyed, because that also means you have to maintain these small defences. Instead, my Rebel Infantry entrench themselves with no extra cost but the same benefits.

Admiral Vostok
11-26-2003, 07:08 AM
1. What would you suggest instead of the flamer? I want to make them good against Mechs for balance, so maybe grenades? Or should they not be good against mechs and just be a non-specialty unit?

2. Shall make the Alliance Centre pop changes soon.

3. I think trenches need to be destroyable. They can be used as a barrier against infantry so if they aren't destroyable you can effectively deny infantry access to an area. My trenches are at no extra cost too, and are not repairable. Just having Rebels entrench themselves is both unrealistic and too similar to Red Alert 2.

Darth Windu
11-28-2003, 08:51 AM
Well with trenches, i agree that my idea is similar to RA2, but i think it is also superior and more realistic because-

1. It allows more flexability
2. It makes Rebel infantry more powerful in the absence of mechs
3. It (sort of) goes along with the films
4. Allows more effective Rebel defences
5. Doesnt add tedious construction work

Admiral Vostok
11-28-2003, 11:14 PM
I disagree entirely, especially with the notion that yours is realistic.

1. Trenches aren't supposed to be flexible.
2. My Rebel Aircraft are what make up for the absence of Mechs, as it should be.
3. Yours in no way reflects the films, mine does entirely.
4. Having simplistic trenching your way will turn into more of an offensive ability rather than defensive, just as it did in RA2.
5. Trenches are tedious construction work, how is it realistic for things to be the complete opposite?

Now, how about some of my other Rebel ideas:
:r2d2: Resource Skiff (like the AoM Norse Ox Cart) - note, Windu, that while this is taken from another game it is less obscure and more relevant to Star Wars.
:r2d2: Smuggler - I'm unsure whether making him an Air unit will overpower Rebel trading.
:r2d2: X-Wings and Y-Wings carrying Astromechs to increase their stats - I thought this would be an interesting way to add more uniqueness to Rebel Workers, and emphasise the fact that only a few of the Rebel Aircraft use Astromechs unlike the Naboo who all use Astromechs or other civs which don't use any.
:r2d2: Power Generator - I wanted the Rebels to use only power droids but thought this would make them too weak late game, so added the power generator.
:r2d2: Airspeeder special ability with tow cable.
:r2d2: Units like the Strike Guerilla, Demolition Expert and Bothan Spy.

Darth Windu
11-29-2003, 05:51 AM
I disagree Vostok
1. I didnt say Trenches would be flexible, but that the Rebel infantry would be more flexible

2. I mean on the ground...

3. That is rubbish. In the film, the Rebels used trenches, in my idea, the Rebels use trenches

4. Not true, the time taken to get into/out of a trench during which Rebel infantry cannot fire should suffice in that regard

5. If they are tedious to build, no-one will build them!

Frozted_MM's
11-29-2003, 09:26 AM
These treanches better be coming into game in the 3rd tech level Rebels will be way overpowered in early rushes and gaming with them in t2.

There is no way in hell im having a game based on the crappy aom in the 1st place noone on the zone who still plays the 1st one likes aom its crap.

saberhagen
11-29-2003, 10:06 AM
I don't think trenches should be an impassable barrier to enemy troopers as that would detract from gameplay and realism. Maybe they should just give defending troopers a bonus like +1 armour or something. They could be impassable to some/all mechs or heavy weapons at first, but then there could be an upgrade you can research later that lets your vehicles go over trenches.

Every building in SWGB takes time and resources to build, but if a building is necessary and the cost is reasonable, people will build it in order to win.

Admiral Vostok
11-29-2003, 11:43 AM
Windu -
1. Well yes, your troopers are more "flexible" because they can build a trench anywhere. This is entirely unrealistic though.
2. I mean in the air. What's the difference? Air should be better integrated and therefore interchangable with ground.
3. Correction: mine use trenches like the movie. Your dig seperate one-man holes, for which the name "trench" is totally unacceptable.
4. What I'm saying is that since your idea is the one from RA2, we'll see the exact same gameplay as we did in that game: Rebel Troopers will walk into an enemy base and entrench themselves... totally wrong as I'm sure you'll agree.
5. Everything is "tedious" to build. Maybe tedious is the wrong word... What I mean is it takes a bit more thinking much like wall placement.

Frozted -
If used Windu's way it would be overpowered in early tech levels, but my way it is just like building walls or turrets. And I didn't say the whole thing was based on AoM, I just said the Resource Skiff was.

Saberhagen -
I mean the trenches to be sort of a different kind of wall the Rebels can build. I thought limiting Infantry, while not entirely realistic, also isn't unrealistic, so for the purposes of gameplay I added it. Making it impassable to Mechs at all would be unrealistic, they can just step/hover/wheel right over a trench.

Frozted_MM's
11-30-2003, 05:43 AM
I still think it is gonna over power them if given in t1 or 2.

Admiral Vostok
11-30-2003, 06:53 AM
I think t2 would be acceptable, since that is when you can get medium walls and turrets currently, and they aren't overpowered. T1, you're probably right, would be too powerful.

saberhagen
11-30-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Making it impassable to Mechs at all would be unrealistic, they can just step/hover/wheel right over a trench.

Oh yeah. I obviously wasn't thinking when I posted that!


while not entirely realistic, also isn't unrealistic

What??? Were you one of John Major's spin doctors in another life? (That will probably be lost on most if not all of you).

Admiral Vostok
11-30-2003, 09:30 PM
What I meant was that it is not realistic for infantry to be totally blocked off by trenches, but on the other it also isn't realistic for it to not stop them at all. So making it impassable to infantry makes for an interesting spin gameplay wise. Besides, the only trench type of trench that enemy infantry could realistically get past is an unmanned one, and if enemy infantry come across an unmanned trench they can easily destroy it to get past.

So in conclusion making it impassable to infantry is more realistic and better gameplay than I had originally realised.

If you can make sense of the above post I salute you.

Darth Windu
12-01-2003, 02:49 AM
Vostok-
1. No it isnt. Are you saying that you can only build trenches in certain places and not others?

2. Not true. Air will never be interchangable with ground. The Rebels will have a strong air force, but my trench system gives their infantry some support against mechs, just as it did in ESB

3. Again, wrong (you're on a roll). My trenches would perform exactly the same function for the rebels as it did in the films.

4. Wrong. The CONCEPT comes from RA2, not the UNIT. My trenching would take longer to simulate a trench being dug, and during the time that a Rebel is entrnching themself, they would be unable to attack. The problem with RA2 was that the effect was instant, mine isnt.

5. No, it isnt. Something is tedious when you dont want to build it or make use of it, and that is the fate your trenches will suffer. Mine, on the other hand, are easy to use and hence will be used a lot more. Your idea also suffers from the fact that it has to be built section by section, and that without garrisoning troops in it, it is utterly useless.

Admiral Vostok
12-01-2003, 05:16 AM
1. What I mean is you shouldn't be able to run into an enemy base and build a trench. However, if your trenchers build slower and are more vulnerable than the ones in RA2 then that would be okay.

2. Mine does too.

3. This is your only point I strongly disagree with, so concentrate on this. Explain to me how a single trooper in his own personal hole was anything like what we saw in the movies.

4. Fine then.

5. Actually my trenches will be built like walls, so while you do have to build them section by section you can click and drag to build an extended trench. Also a trench without troopers in will still serve a purpose: it slows down enemy infantry armies. I don't like it how with your idea the Trooper fills in his hole when he leaves the trench. Think of my trench as a different kind of wall rather than a Trooper ability.

Darth Windu
12-01-2003, 01:02 PM
3. It is similar to what we saw in EpV in the art and abilities, and if you had a line of Rebel infantry entrnch themselves, the art would change from single holes to one long trench - there may even be bonus' "for team trenching"

5. I understand the concept behind your idea, and there is some merit, though not as much as mine :)
If you think about it, mine is actually realistic in that the troopers would fill up their trenches after use so the enemy couldnt use them

Admiral Vostok
12-01-2003, 09:39 PM
3. I can't really see how this will work in practice. Infantry is usually in a group, not a line, so if you command them all to entrench they'll form not a trench but a big pit. Alternatively you could entrench them one by one in a line, but this takes a rediculous amount of micromanagement, so much so it renders your argument against the effort to build my trenches non-sensical. For your idea to work there must be a group bonus to avoid rediculous personal holes, but I can't see how it can work. Please explain.

5. As far as I'm aware in reality (presumably where realism comes from) infantry don't fill up their own trenches. Trenches are usually not intended to be as temporary as you are making them.

6 (new point). One of the key aspects of realism relating to trench warfare that your idea lacks entirely is the ability to move around inside trenches. Infantry garrissoned in the trench can move around in the trench up to two abreast, so can reposition themselves should an attack come from a different angle. Also because of this, my trenches can be used (again as in reality) like a protective walkway: you can build a trench from your Jedi Temple to your front line so Jedi can travel down the trench with greater protection rom outside fire. These two purposes (infantry firing out AND personnell protection) are how real trenches are used, and not only does yours do a poor job of realistically presenting the first purpose but it can't perform the second purpose at all.

Frozted_MM's
12-01-2003, 11:50 PM
I fany of you actually played SWGB 1 you would know troop wars all happen in T2 and trenches being available then would make them over powered in a rush.

Frozted_MM's
12-01-2003, 11:52 PM
Vostoks sound more like buildings and premanent structures where darths are more like a deployment option....

Admiral Vostok
12-02-2003, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by Frozted_MM's
I fany of you actually played SWGB 1 you would know troop wars all happen in T2 and trenches being available then would make them over powered in a rush.

Quite right, Frozted, but this trench design is for SWGB2, not SWGB1. As such trenches will be properly balanced into the mix.

Darth Windu
12-02-2003, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Frozted_MM's
Vostoks sound more like buildings and premanent structures where darths are more like a deployment option....

Absolutely correct. The reason mine is the way it is, is because what i want for SWGB2 is large scale, intense battles which of course means that there needs to be less base micro and more emphasis on war.

Frozted_MM's
12-02-2003, 10:19 AM
Well lets hope its all balanced otherwise the online community won't last long.....

Admiral Vostok
12-02-2003, 11:43 PM
Windu, you say you want less micro, but explain how your idea can possibly work without micro (ie formulate a response to point 3 above).

Darth Windu
12-03-2003, 04:51 AM
Vostok - the reason mine would be less micro to yours is becuase you would just use hotkeys to entrench and detrench your infantry.

Frozted_MM's
12-03-2003, 09:45 AM
I say kill the trenches off its sounds stupid really stupid rebel troops will be way overpowered for starters. Its going to be crap seeing them trench themselves in like 30 secs anyways. Drop the trench garbage and its all good :)