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the weiner dog!
09-19-2003, 07:15 PM
(data base error, delete the other thread I can't)

Ok before anyone chimes in with standard responses/flames I want to make a few things clear:

I'm going to take the glaring problems with JA MP and *specifically detail why it is a problem and I would appreciate only serious and *detailed feedback if you respond.

If I say X is a problem, please tell me how Y can solve it.

That basically means no generic "give it time" or "it's only been out two days" responses.



Multiplayer problems:

(This section deals with 1v1 play)

Weak sabers in saber only game types.

In games of saber only Full Force the saber is even more useless than in was in Jedi Outcast 1.04.

Everyone knows players in Jedi Outcast used various combos that revolved around the double tap kick and the combining of Force powers with those double tap kicks to compensate for the saber weakness.


Problem is with the total elimination of those kicks and the combos, the sabers being even *weaker now and the healing power of drain being just as potent as it was in Jedi Outcast, a player who does not wish to be killed will not be.

I guarantee any of you who are reading this that if you were to duel me full force right now I could drag a single round out for 12 hours by simply draining you.

You could not rely on high damage force based combos to end my "drain whoring" because they have been removed.

You could not use "specials" or "Katas" to kill me because none of them are instant killers and even if you do take me to say 20 hp, I'm going to have plenty of force in reserve and just drain it right back.

Not to mention I can drain you from the start of the match to even prevent you from using them a single time because they require such a huge portion of your force pool.

You can't “saber" me with normal swings because they do such low damage I can actually let you hit me twice, wait... then start draining it back.


So my question is, how do you kill me?

Now when I say "me" I don't mean some random player on a public server, I mean myself. A very skilled player who is not going engage you, waste a drop of force and who will just sit back and drain you to prove that you lack the ability to kill him.


Now you may say "I turn on absorb so he can't drain me then do a Kata".

Wrong.

You turn on absorb I'm going to stay out of range (back off/run away) and won't engage or get near until it turns off.

Solutions?

Setting the saber damage scale high (server side) of course right?

Well answer me this:

We all hated sabers in 1.04 right?

That saber scale option was there in 1.04, explain to me if that was "our solution" why only 1 out of 600 servers used it?

The bottom line is 99% of the JO/JA server admins are not like admins from games like Quake 3 or RTCW. If you don't put it in *base game play, chances are it's not going to ever get used.

This is not opinion, it is fact.

If I am wrong then please tell me why everyone complained about weak sabers in 1.04, had the cvar to make them better, but no one, and I mean virtually no one used that cvar?


High damage specials require force

Very bad idea.

Now I know the logic was “people won’t complain about spamming if no one can spam them” when this was done.

But like a lot of things, in reality it does not play out that way.

Here is why:

In Jedi Outcast if you were being drain whored you had basically 2 options:

Run like hell and hope you can get away to regen or go on the offensive and use rapid attacks like a kick+ red dfa combo or specials like the blue lunge to turn the tide and get a quick win.

Now look at Jedi Academy:

I am drain whoring you, I have your force pool down to 0.

I keep holding down the key and hit you with a drain blast every second to prevent you from regenerating.


You can’t use any specials or high damage moves because they all *require force.

You can’t use any defensive or offensive force powers because you have a 0 pool.

What can you do?

Swing a saber.

But wait, none of the basic swings cause serious damage and since I’m just holding down the key I’m going to heal it back just as fast as you cause it.

See the problem in this guys?

Those special moves were the one great “random factor” when people would drain whore you.

I know many of times I have drain whored opponents only to walk right into 1-2 back to back lunges and lose the match that I though I had in the bag.

Before (in Jedi Outcast) a player being drain whored had many options in his arsenal to stay in the fight,

But now, his only option is run and hope the guy can’t strafe jump as fast.



Full Force Saber only CTF

This game can be summed up in two basic statements:

If you cap (a term for the guy who gets the flag) you NEVER fight, you run and you run like hell.


If you defend, you need to kill in one single shot. The cappers (flag guy) are NOT going to stand there and fight you so what ever you use has to be an instant kill. Not to mention they will be using absorb and level 3 speed to make them immune from any force based attacks and will be impossible to kill unless you get them in one shot as they fly by at 90 miles per hour


In Jedi Outcast you had two basic options to kill a capper, the DFA (or rage+dfa) or kick them off of a ledge for an instant fall death.

Now look at Jedi Academy.

The only “high damage” moves are the Katas, but you are locked into a stationary position while you execute them so unless the capper has moth blood in his veins and mistakes you for a giant bug zapper he’s not going to walk into a guy twirling a saber.


The bottom line is the capper has no reason to stand there and “duke it out” because his job is to get back to his base as fast as possible and score.

You remove the instant hit kills with no kick+fall deaths, you weaken the specials and make them use force (no rage+dfa combos now) and this translates into a capper with an escort using team heal being totally unstoppable.

What was once before a fast paced game of CTF now turns into both sides grabbing the flag in the first 30 seconds and standing off for 19:30 and the match ends at 0/0 when the time hits.


Force grip not being able to stay active when it is out of the line of sight

This makes no sense at all, in theory maybe, but not in practice.

Look at level 2 grip.

Why is it useless?

Because you are directly in the guys line of sight and all he has to do is push/pull and it instantly breaks, you simply can’t ever use it on anything other than bots or NPC’s that do not have push/pull.


Grip at level 3 has become no different than level 2 now.

No person with even ˝ a brain is going to just sit there being choked if he is being held directly in front of the gripper with the option to break it with a simple push/pull.

You say “spin the mouse around”?

Wrong.

You may think that is a viable strategy because it works on newbie’s, but it is incredibly easy to break for experienced players by simply looking down and exploiting the area of effect of force pull.



Ways to fix these problems

1.01 patch

-Up saber damages like we were being led to believe they would be when we were getting info on this game. Sure “technically” no one lied when they said sabers would be more lethal in some game types and weaker in others but every one of us thought that meant *high damage sabers in some game types, and *really high damage ones in others. I.e. stronger sabers than Jedi Outcast 1.04 had across the board.

-Get rid of force usage restrictions on basic special moves. If you want to keep them on the high damage Katas fine, but the basic specials like the lunge and the dfa need to be un nerfed to be of any use in a realistic situation.

-Kicking for all stances. This is one thing both “fan boys” and “competitive players” have all mentioned they wanted. If the debug melee command is server side only, like the damage scale command in Jedi Outcast 1.04, you know as well as I do it will never get used.

A simple way to fix this is give the other two stances the double tap kicks and keep the multi style kicks for the staff users.

As a side note, please test and refine the debug melee command if it is implemented because when used in single player it is obvious it is untested because of how erratic the results are (wall walking up a guys face when you try to kick him is a prefect example).

-remove the line of sight restriction for grip to actually make it a power worth putting points into again.



In closing I wanted to say thanks to all of the competitive guys from the various clans like =AX=, [div3rse], FK, rk //, guys like remij, +/< and others as well who have come here to respond to these threads.

I know it can be frustrating when you are trying to make a serious point about game play mechanics and you get responses like “well that’s gay cuz in episode 2 yoda used absorb and blah blah” but please try to keep the tempers in check guys.

Also as a final note I want to make it crystal clear to every single person here why this backlash is going on and who is responsible for it.

This is nothing like the “back stab” whining that went on in Jedi Outcast.

I really wish people were going “OMG These Katas are gay they keep spamming them and every one is getting killed!” because that would imply there is actually some serious depth and danger to be found in the game play.

The problem we (the competitive players) have is there is simply no “meat” on this games bones.

A few flashy eye candy moves that are ineffective in a realistic situation, the removal of high damage and complex combos and strategies basically makes this a “pick up and play for all ages” type of game that is so simplistic it’s dull and pointless to play at the moment for those people who crave a hardcore gaming experience.

As I have said before, if this were a true new game I would totally agree that we should just sit back and give it some time, but let’s not play dumb, this game is 90% Jedi Outcast with a new coat of paint.

You take what “did work” and remove it or weaken it, replace what was taken out with *ineffective moves that look pretty and slap a $50 price tag on it and yes, some people will be naive enough to believe it’s a whole new game with months and months of stuff to still be learned but those of us who play these games for the “game content” and not the “star wars content” are not going to be sold on that line of b.s.

Rumor
09-19-2003, 07:27 PM
i couldn't have said it better myself.

please if you have no desire to play full force / saber only, DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD.

Losonos
09-19-2003, 08:09 PM
If you turn on the saber realism cvar you will get the sabers you desire. I just finished playing on a power duel server with it enabled and there were a lot of one shot kills that were not katas and just regular attacks. Single saber heavy stance is especially powerful in this mode.

Edit: g_saberDamageScale is the cvar.

traj
09-19-2003, 08:15 PM
Well said Wiener Dog. I only have one little discrepancy.

In CTF games you said that the game would last 20 minutes and end at a stalemate. But actually it is MUCH worse than that.

CTF games cannot end in a tie. So basically, you could in theory be stuck on the same map for an infinite amount of time. But most likely what would happen is one FC would outlast another's boredom. One FC would disconnect and the other team would cap, and FINALLY we could see the next map. Sounds to me like alot of 52 minute 1-0 games.

The rest of the post was right on the money and I agree whole- heartedly with everything else you said.

traj
09-19-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Losonos
If you turn on the saber realism cvar you will get the sabers you desire. I just finished playing on a power duel server with it enabled and there were a lot of one shot kills that were not katas and just regular attacks. Single saber heavy stance is especially powerful in this mode.

Edit: g_saberDamageScale is the cvar.

Did you read the post sir?

the weiner dog!
09-19-2003, 08:16 PM
JA MP really reminds me of Jedi Outcast *single player.

Slow, simple, toned down and more for "star wars" fans than true players.

I'm not saying JA is "total crap" like a lot of people, I love the new maps, player models and think the single player game is a blast.

Problem is, the MP game play mechanics took all the "hard core" killing stuff from Jedi Outcast out but instead of replacing it with "new hard core" killing stuff they replaced it with ineffective flashy moves.


Everyone keeps saying "there is more to learn give it time" well look at it like this:

Everything that got brought over from the previous game is now ineffective due to the wide range of nerfing, so if there is one "super move/combo" to be found still, do you not see the problem with that?

Didn't everyone get all pissed off because "all people did in 1.02/03 was spam the same one move over and over"?

You bet they did and it pissed people off.

So if we know all the stuff we have found is ineffective (since about 85% of the game mechanics is JO recycled, there is not a lot to find) do you want to be back in the "one move wonder world" again?

This is why the multiple things that were nerfed need to be put back in, to give people options.

Comm539
09-19-2003, 08:39 PM
well said. I agree 100%
Only thing i would say is that not all gametypes are happy with things like gripkick, pk etc. I just play ctf and ff duels, but other ppl have to be happy too. Why not reimplement them, but give the server the option whether to turn them on or not. This would let ctf servers keep them, but duel servers remove them.

JaledDur
09-19-2003, 09:10 PM
I just think the solution is for all the good coders and people like wiener dog here to sit down and make a mod. I mean, Raven is great, I love them, but they aren't going to 'fix' anything, ok? Even if they do change the game, they wont be 'fixing' it -- lets face it they don't have the best track record here.

Comm539
09-19-2003, 11:13 PM
This basically the same game...they could just keep them in. All the animations are there...you can kick a wall, so it can't be much coding to kick a person. The trouble with mods is they aren't official, so only a few clan servers will run them and not public s/o ctf servers.

Pedro The Hutt
09-19-2003, 11:38 PM
To the entire drain rant, two syllables. ab-sorb ^.^ (and you can't hide for ever Luke.. eh.. weiner, you'll have to come out and fight like a man XD)

Prime
09-19-2003, 11:40 PM
A good post the weiner dog! And unfortunately no really flamable, which is disappointing. j/k :) I do have a few comments with SO FF Duels in mind though...

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
That saber scale option was there in 1.04, explain to me if that was "our solution" why only 1 out of 600 servers used it?

The bottom line is 99% of the JO/JA server admins are not like admins from games like Quake 3 or RTCW. If you don't put it in *base game play, chances are it's not going to ever get used.

This is not opinion, it is fact.

If I am wrong then please tell me why everyone complained about weak sabers in 1.04, had the cvar to make them better, but no one, and I mean virtually no one used that cvar? I agree that the cvar was not used nearly enough, and likely would have improved the situation quite a bit.

I seems that asking admin to alter this cvar is not going to do the trick. However, it seemed just about every server had an admin mod of some sort. Perhaps the altering of this cvar, and perhaps some others that would introduce better gameplay could be bundled up in a little mod and posted on the various file sites. This would essentailly be what Raven would do with a patch (more or less). It might possibly lead to a bit wider distribution of the cvar alterations. I guess what I'm saying is make it as easy as possible for admins to "install". If it is something they could just download and put in a directory, they might be more likely to do it, especially if it dramatically improves things. I doubt that would really work, I'm just thinking out loud...

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
stronger sabers than Jedi Outcast 1.04 had across the board. Keep in mind that many people complained in JO that duels in the duel gametype did not go on long enough. Raven developers have stated that trying to make changes to saber damage that cover all gametypes introduced more problems than it solved. A more gametype-specific solution is probably necessary.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
-Get rid of force usage restrictions on basic special moves. If you want to keep them on the high damage Katas fine, but the basic specials like the lunge and the dfa need to be un nerfed to be of any use in a realistic situation. This makes sense.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
-Kicking for all stances. This is one thing both ?fan boys? and ?competitive players? have all mentioned they wanted. If the debug melee command is server side only, like the damage scale command in Jedi Outcast 1.04, you know as well as I do it will never get used. I admit that I never really liked kicking in JO, mainly because it took away the gameplay from the lightsaber in SO games, and it was too effective for what it represented (kicking someone). Now, having a kick like the saberstaff might be good, but personally I would not want it have all the same characteristics as the kick in JO. Specifically, the damage direct to health, the ability to still defend yourself using the saber, and the relatively high damage. Having the kick do a bit of damage and potentially knock someone down would be useful regardless. I'd rather see a solution involving making the lightsaber more effective.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
A few flashy eye candy moves that are ineffective in a realistic situation, the removal of high damage and complex combos and strategies basically makes this a ?pick up and play for all ages? type of game that is so simplistic it?s dull and pointless to play at the moment for those people who crave a hardcore gaming experience. To be fair to Raven, rightly or wrongly the "pick up and play" type of game is exactly what they tried to make. They are trying to make a game for the widest range of customers, and the fact is that most customers are casual gamers. Making the game too complex or difficult to pick up might alienate a large number of customers. So it is not that Raven failed in what they were trying to do. They just didn't make a game that appealed to every group of players. I'm not trying to defend Raven here, I'm just saying that thay made a decision about what game they wanted to make and tried to cater to as many groups as possible. And it is not like they completely ignored competative gamers, as they have mad the game very customizable. I agree that making certain settings widespread is not easy, but Raven can only do so much. It might be up to the community now to get things the way we want them. After JO, I suspect Raven will be very hesitant to release a gameplay altering patch that caters to one group of players.

My 2 cents...

Tesla
09-19-2003, 11:56 PM
more for "star wars" fans

Well, the name Star Wars sort of imploys the fact that it was made more for fans of Star Wars :rolleyes:

Ah, yet more rambling about the same thing over and over, look we've had threads before about how you so called "experienced players" hate this and hate that, well take the game back then and wait until Halo or Half Life 2 are released, im sure they will satisfy you more.

And stop with the slagging off about how Raven have made "this crap" or "sabers suck worse than 1.04", this is Jedi Academy not Outcast, now if you prefer Outcasts MP then play that, and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

SuperNub
09-20-2003, 12:19 AM
Ya know, I would've been completely happy had they just simply re-released JO with a main menu option of choosing 1.03 or 1.04. And implemented the improved graphics, new maps and gameplay options.

The only problems needed to be fixed in 1.03 to me were the freezing glitches. As in if you knock someone down right after doing a blue lunge you were immobile for a few moments. And also if you knocked someone down amidst a backstab they are frozen for a couple seconds right after getting up. I never had a problem with the pivating backstab, it added more of a challenge on defending the move and when to use it to me. It also puts rage and protect to full usage.

S/O ctf was a blast in 1.03. Forced reality server anyone? ;) Simply having three guys standing on the flag backstabbing constantly then jumping in at the perfect moment to knock them away or backstab them as well to grab the flag was a good challenge.

1.04 seemed fine to me as well, I had no problem using melee over saber attacks when needed. They were equally entertaining to myself. I think 1.04 lacked the aerial blue lunge, otherwise it was just fine and dandy.

I know there is the option of using a program called patch commander, but it was too buggy in it's final release to be used. The simple option of choosing between patches in the main menu sounds great to me, as well as the option to disable kicks for those who couldn't stand it as well.

This would obviously not then be a completely new game, but its not like JO had any expansion packs anyways, this would've been perfect for one and I wouldn't even bother with JKA.

Side
09-20-2003, 12:24 AM
Eh...dont reply then telsa...
and weiner man ur text made me hard

Side
09-20-2003, 12:27 AM
oh yea...the only way u could ACTUALY kill a FC's would be mind trick+kata...but any skilled Capper could easily hear mind trick and activate seing...beside that combo....pathetic

g//plaZma
09-20-2003, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Tesla
Well, the name Star Wars sort of imploys the fact that it was made more for fans of Star Wars :rolleyes:

Ah, yet more rambling about the same thing over and over, look we've had threads before about how you so called "experienced players" hate this and hate that, well take the game back then and wait until Halo or Half Life 2 are released, im sure they will satisfy you more.

And stop with the slagging off about how Raven have made "this crap" or "sabers suck worse than 1.04", this is Jedi Academy not Outcast, now if you prefer Outcasts MP then play that, and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

You, not being a competitive gamer have no business to post here. This thread was for competive gamers to post what they want improved in JA, not to flame or tell him that his thread is useless and to play another game.

I agree with everything that weiner dog has said. He seems to be speaking for every competitive ff/so player out there. I'm especially angry that the kicking is disabled and Raven hasn't come up with any better ideas for katas besides some flashy saber movements that make you immobile for the whole move. Don't even get me started about the crappy rolling... Strafing to the right is a lot faster than this crappy nerfed roll.

Rumor
09-20-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt
To the entire drain rant, two syllables. ab-sorb ^.^ (and you can't hide for ever Luke.. eh.. weiner, you'll have to come out and fight like a man XD)

you obviously never played anybody that was, for lack of a better word, one of the elites.

Rumor
09-20-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
You, not being a competitive gamer have no business to post here. This thread was for competive gamers to post what they want improved in JA, not to flame or tell him that his thread is useless and to play another game.

I agree with everything that weiner dog has said. He seems to be speaking for every competitive ff/so player out there. I'm especially angry that the kicking is disabled and Raven hasn't come up with any better ideas for katas besides some flashy saber movements that make you immobile for the whole move. Don't even get me started about the crappy rolling... Strafing to the right is a lot faster than this crappy nerfed roll.

Side
09-20-2003, 12:46 AM
oh yea ... rage is totaly useless in saber only(in gametype with saber only)

Tesla
09-20-2003, 01:34 AM
Eh...dont reply then telsa...
I have the free right to post in any thread that i wish to,thank you very much.

Oh and it's Tesla.

And can i not voice my opinion on a thread ?

Side
09-20-2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Tesla

And stop with the slagging off about how Raven have made "this crap" or "sabers suck worse than 1.04", this is Jedi Academy not Outcast, now if you prefer Outcasts MP then play that, and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

You said it urself,ur wasting ur time

Tesla
09-20-2003, 01:52 AM
Just what i personally felt myself, no harm done to others. :)

Rumor
09-20-2003, 01:54 AM
if i remember correctly, weiner asked for people who actually play the gametype(s) to reply with ways to fix it/views.

you are not one of them. we know what everyone else thinks, we've had it shoved down our throats for a year and a half. we're voicing our opinion on how gameplay could be made better in what we play. the discussion doesn't concern you and you haven't added anything to it, so please don't reply as its a waste of your time.

{DHU}Screed
09-20-2003, 01:59 AM
and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

No one held a gun to your head and said READ THIS THREAD OR YOUR BRAINS ARE ONE WITH THE WALL! Did they?



I agree 100% with this thread, basically all the gripes I have with Academy have been stated above.

{DHU}Screed
09-20-2003, 02:02 AM
oh yea...the only way u could ACTUALY kill a FC's would be mind trick+kata...but any skilled Capper could easily hear mind trick and activate seing...beside that combo....pathetic

Even then, what flag carrier with half a brain would stay still long enough where you could Kata them?!

Side
09-20-2003, 02:08 AM
Yea i know...but still that would be the only way to kill a FC and that rather pathetic

dude just imagine a capper with 2 energizer with protect on?how in the world are u supose to kill him...beside luck

{DHU}Screed
09-20-2003, 02:18 AM
Already tried and failed. Its plain and simple that you CANT kill a flag carrier.

SpaceButler13
09-20-2003, 02:46 AM
Yeah, I agree, except about the kicking. I've been kicked down, and kicked repeatedly while trying to get up far too many times to want it exactly the same, although some sort of kick as a dfa counter, (if they were to be usable again), would be good. I haven't played enough JA yet to really know, but the duels last forever and I'd like saber damage up all across the board. With FF duels, that's why I mainly played no force duels, and it's rather disappointing that the only way for a serious fight in a jedi game is to ignore the force. If heal and drain were toned down and taken out, it would be much more quickly resolved and all, but how long until it was a lightning spam-war. You don't even really need to aim that.

Side
09-20-2003, 02:46 AM
wow that suck....

DFA should 1 hit kill still+no force
oh here a nice idea:when u lunge on the ground=no force
if u lunge in mid air=use force
lol that sound cool
kick should be implented(old jk2 kick)with sum difference(u guys think of something like....3 taps on jump to kick?lol)
Saber=stronger please...cuz saber are a joke now
Grip should be like jk2

Dark rage and grip sound so useless

TiBo
09-20-2003, 03:18 AM
I do not own the game yet, but it sounds like the mutliplayer is not so good. I would mainly be playing multiplayer, do you guys that have tried it think that it is worth buying this game for playing singleplayer maybe once and then playing multiplayer?

Poison
09-20-2003, 03:28 AM
I completely agree with everything that has been said here about the problems with JA multiplayer. Something should be done to make s/o ctf playable, because right now, face it, it isn't.

BigFurryWhale
09-20-2003, 03:36 AM
Weiner dog for president!

the weiner dog!
09-20-2003, 03:48 AM
Screed change your name bro, that dhu tag is making me gag.

;)

Serious though, the people who are contributing in these threads were (and in many cases still are) the absolute best players you will find in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.

You have members from a professionally sponsored clan posting here and members from another clan who just won a major company sponsored tournament involving all of the top competitive clans in Jedi Outcast.

I know it may seem like we are "bashing" the game but if anything please keep in mind all these people really are the most knowledgeable resources when it comes to understanding game play mechanics.

I don’t think it is a coincidence that not one well known/ranked competitive player has stepped up and taken the side of the argument that this game now "requires more skill" as opposed to it being over simplified like many players from the competitive community have said.

Hell, look at the top of this forum. See that sticky about TWL?

Now go here:

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=104&threadid=82261

even the admins of these leagues see a very realistic issue of these leagues and ladders dying a pre mature death due to the across the board disappointment from gamers who play competitively in saber only game types.

And while I noticed someone said “we will have to rely on the mod community to fix this” I can’t help but get really annoyed at that premise.

There has been a very disturbing trend in retail game releases over the last few years where a sub par product barely past beta phase is released and it is left up to the mod community to fix it, all under the guise of “community involvement”.

Catalyst
09-20-2003, 04:13 AM
If you guys want to turn JA into EXACTLY was JO was then go back to playing JO and stfu. Or just take 10 minutes to adapt to the new playing style...which isn't that bad when you get used to it.

Prime
09-20-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
I don’t think it is a coincidence that not one well known/ranked competitive player has stepped up and taken the side of the argument that this game now "requires more skill" as opposed to it being over simplified like many players from the competitive community have said. I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that Raven/LA likely designed JA so that it was enjoyable for the most possible players. This means casual gamers (likely the largest group?) who do not necessarily care if moves take skill. They want it to be easy to pick up so they can jump in and play right away. I think that it is obvious that that was the way they wanted to go, and that was the way it went. It is unfortunate that you guys are unhappy with it :(

{DHU}Screed
09-20-2003, 04:21 AM
Sorry about the tag :D, was just to lazy to make another account. Just goes to show ya how long ago I made this acct.
You know whats really funny, www.darkhorseunited.com check out their poster boy screenshot :p


Again, I agree 100% with weiner dog.


I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that Raven/LA likely designed JA so that it was enjoyable for the most possible players. This means casual gamers (likely the largest group?) who do not necessarily care if moves take skill. They want it to be easy to pick up so they can jump in and play right away. I think that it is obvious that that was the way they wanted to go, and that was the way it went. It is unfortunate that you guys are unhappy with it

So your saying JA was given a Teen rating b/c they were attracting the 5-9 year olds who cant hit more than 1 button at once? Your statement makes no sense. They decided to go with the casual gamers aspect, when they are the ones to abandoned the game first b/c it got "old"?

Prime
09-20-2003, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by {DHU}Screed
So your saying JA was given a Teen rating b/c they were attracting the 5-9 year olds who cant hit more than 1 button at once? Your statement makes no sense. They decided to go with the casual gamers aspect, when they are the ones to abandoned the game first b/c it got "old"? Casual gamer does not equal 5-9 year olds. It's people who don't give a rats ass about winning ladders or whether the kata requires skill or not. It's people that play the game for fun. They could be 30 year olds. Many of them probably won't touch MP. In any case it is the majority of players, which means the majority of customers, which means the majority of money spenders. And whether they abondon the game one day after or five years later doesn't make an once of difference to Lucasarts because they all bought the game. They make the same money regardless.

cheeto101
09-20-2003, 05:34 AM
yeah, i def agree that JA is geared for a larger audience of people who just like to sit down once in awhile and bust out a saber.

Personally, to all the hardcore players, id suggest playin JO for the next month or so, and im sure theyrll be a few mods that will satisfy your every need. I meed, most members of the modding comunitee are hardcore gamers like yourselves (heh they have to be to create mods, takes alotta time) and im sure theyre prob not happy with the way JA is now either.

Rad Blackrose
09-20-2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Catalyst
If you guys want to turn JA into EXACTLY was JO was then go back to playing JO and stfu. Or just take 10 minutes to adapt to the new playing style...which isn't that bad when you get used to it.

RTFFP

To the entire drain rant, two syllables. ab-sorb ^.^ (and you can't hide for ever Luke.. eh.. weiner, you'll have to come out and fight like a man XD)

RTFFP

Tesla: RTGDFFP

Ahem... Now that I got that out of the way.

With the lack of kick and the nerfing of certain powers (Who in their right mind would throw an LOS restriction on force grip?), it became blatantly apparent that the saber is going to have to do the talking. However, the three most obvious problems right now with the saber is lack of damage capability, overabundance of blocking on blows which should make past, and pretty ****ty hit detection (you do three katas in a row, only to find that they don't connect at all while the guy humps your leg).

Oh, did I fail to mention force costs for specials? I will reiterate what I said earlier, in which I could see a justifiable FP cost for DFA provided its power is upped, and the same could go for the rest. However, right now the risk is not worth the reward. For 25 FP, I can fly upside down, completely miss a person, then get a free chance to be introduced to Bubba at the prison cell. Its just not WORTH IT.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to add my suggestions...

1.) In terms of saber damage, a damage scale needs to be established as to which while the saber is not ultra-lethal, you know you're ****ed if you take a shot from an overhead red slice.

2.) We need to find a way to tone down the blocking factor. If you know you got a good hit, you should score it. This especially goes for back attacks, and the block bug still exists in that department.

3.) Remove specials FP cost, or up their power (and whose bright idea was it to throw a cost on roll stab?). Keep kata's force cost at 50.

4.) Saber hit detection is Raven's field, not ours, but it definetly needs help. I thought we would have this **** worked out by now.

Its funny that all the people coming in here now who are telling the people who knew how to play JKII to its full potential to STFU wouldn't have even a hint of what happened in the competition scene.

NITEMARE
09-20-2003, 06:07 AM
i am not a very competitive player or a force fan from JO. but you guys are serious and the top of the player pool, so it makes sense debating with you rather than with those fanboys.
i tried playing JO with forces but it made no sense. this drain thing was just to strong, and so it still is in JA. while i agree to many of the "weiner dog" gangs statements, i don't agree with the following:

changes like force using specials or KATAS are bad.
kicks like they were back in JO should get back in JA.

i am a so player so i would have to say, that all these new features sound very nice and logicaly. ok the damage thing was a problem before and i would have to play on servers with high damage cvar. the kicks destroyed gameplay before and now only saber staff players can kick, and they are vulnerable while doing it! the same with specials like the red dfa and the backstabb/slash. not that i wasn't on of the first in our community (germany) to ever use those moves. it was a matter of hours and i already pissed off everybody who did not addapt to it.
so raven took my ideas (heh just common sense, not that i was asked by them) and made specials depending on the force pool. that solves the spaming. ok they don't realy have a clue about damage, i always had to change that myself for our servers. the thing you guys are complaining is that public servers don't have it and waiting for mods as salvation, which is a crippled bitch btw, takes 4ever...

ok here comes the sollution which i think should do it:
g_saberRestrictForce
problem is, it's cheat protected. ARGH!
otherwise it would be realy nice to test it on public servers. to see if it works correct and how it changes gameplay. for those of you who don't know about it: no force use while the saber is on except KATA and special moves...so much for the theorie.
so go check it out, turn cheats on and play duel with ff. everytime a player wants to drain/heal or what ever he has to holster his saber.

in the end, public servers remain unplayable for me as a purist and a powergamer. so are leagues ofcourse, since those never support mods or other settings than defaults...to please most players...

razorace
09-20-2003, 06:09 AM
I'm going to toss my two cents in here.

First off, based simply on the opinions of this board, Raven would have a hard time changing ANYTHING in the game. Whenever Raven has made a change, people whine about it. They fix the DFA, people whine. They fix backstab, people whine.

Secondly, by boosting the saber damage you're only going to run into the problem with random blocking. Basically, it's random. Sure, there's some level of skill in flanking your enemy and cutting him down but the saber blocking system in JK2 (and I assume JKA) basically blocks (with a random faction) everything you can from your point of view.

NITEMARE
09-20-2003, 06:20 AM
oh yeah i forgot about that! higher the damage makes the accuracy worse. or better say it makes you realy aware of how inaccurate it is. if one swing make much damage and it doesn't count although it looked like you hit the guys, man you're pissed. the same for blocking, if somehow a swing gets thru, ARGH. that's why they alwas try to tone damage down since 1.03...

razorace
09-20-2003, 06:33 AM
Well, that's partially why the damage has always been toned down.

1. Because the saber blocking is far from perfect (not a knock against Raven. I know they did it that way for a number of good reasons.)

2. Because noone really wants to die when a lucky hit cuts off their left big toe and kills them.

megafu
09-20-2003, 07:04 AM
(sigh) returned my copy today. Thank you Raven for putting out the worst sequel to a game possible. I use the word sequel lightly.

oh.. side note, dark side owns lide side in this game bigtime.

Rad Blackrose
09-20-2003, 07:05 AM
No, light rocks... Oh wait, I was beating up half of SiN tonight, that was why. *eyeroll*

EDIT: BTW, just to give you a fair warning and advice, if you're running an s/o server, and you have a high force regen setting, you better be ready to see some high dual saber kata spammage... Pretty sad I had to leave a server whose clan I know real well because it was reduced to spammage of one move.

Rumor
09-20-2003, 07:12 AM
thanks for the good, well thought out post, nitemare.

although i do have to disagree on a lot of that, i am too tired for a rebuttal.

[div3rse.syn]
09-20-2003, 07:26 AM
First, I have to say this to cheeta101 (or whatever your name is):

I consistently see you posting in every single thread (be it constructive or not) that we (the competetive players of JK2) should give JKA more time. You neglect to read ANYTHING that ANY of us say, and simply say we have not LEARNED this game.

You know what I have to say to you? The main thing most of us are griping about is the fact that to play JKA...you don't need to learn ANYTHING. The new moves take approximately 30 seconds for anyone familiar with doing a dfa (red or yellow) from JK2 to learn. Besides the new kata's, the 2 new saber types (dual and staff) aren't in any way significantly different than the old sabers. Before you go and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about...just shut your face. I started playing JK2 well later than anyone else that I've ever talked to...I was probably the last person to *get good* at JK2. Ask FK if my capping skills were up to par with 1/4 as much experience as them when Div3rse took a server from them. Ask anyone on div3rse, RK, ms3, NJS, FK, eF, or any of the other clans that stuck it out with JK2 and kept playing until the release of this game. I learn fast. There's NOTHING to learn in JKA.

Anything that made JKO fun has been taken out and replaced with useless stuff. It's insane.

So far, I've seen that the *major* argument for these new changes has been that the *average* gamer doesn't give 2 ****s whether or not moves take skill to perform. Yes, good point. Now explain to me why the game can't have any sort of depth to it that would allow for competetive play. Explain to me how taking Kick out of the game makes it *easier* for your average gamer to play. The biggest problem for noobs coming to JK2 was that they would learn a stance's special move and spam it like crazy. That's all I see in any gametype server that I've been into in JKA. Lot's of Kata's going off in all directions. Thing I don't see is anything at the top of the screen saying "I8uRmOM has been sabered by DrTHV@D3R" or the like. Why? Because all the noobs are running around doing flashy moves that DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Sure, someone connects with a random kata sometimes and somebody does...but it's a noob server. How is that any different from JK2? Well, in most public servers in JK2, the same sort of thing existed. Lots of noobs having fun spamming DFA's left and right. By putting limits on the moves and such, you take out the "fun" element for noobs. They LOVE their flashy, useless moves. Thing is, in jk2, there was another level of depth that you could LEARN, and become BETTER than a noob. For the elite, there is no depth to learn. There is no way to become better than a noob because the only thing you can do is flail around and hope to get lucky. It's horrible for any sort of competitive play.

The way I look at it is this: The average gamer won't notice the difference if kicks are in the game, if sabers did more damage, or if anything else us elites want changed got changed. Why? He doesn't care. But if Raven wants to have any sort of LONGEVITY in this game, they need to cater to the competition. Why are games like CS, Q3A, etc. still around when they're much older? Those communities CATER to the competition, because the noobs can still dick around and have fun, but there's something THERE for elite people to play with.

My area of expertise:
Capping. I know how to cap. And you know what? The ONLY way I'm going to die in JKA when I have the flag is if I get a lag spike and somehow fly off an edge. Why? Sabers are too easy to avoid, kata's are even easier, and there are no kicks to slow you down, so literally, there's nothing you can do to kill me. Sadly, it's not because I'm a good capper (and in jk2 1.04, I am). It's because given 2 seconds of practice, anyone will notice that the simple role of capper by definition will make you invulnerable. Come again? Simple. A capper's job is to run to the flag platform, and run back to the base. No dicking around, just run. Therefore, NOBODY will kill you because nobody can hurt you unless you stand still...and you won't be...so have fun with those 80 minute 0-0 ctf games.

Anyways, I had to add my peice to this mess...it's probably not coherent because it's late at night, but whatever, I'll clear it up later

razorace
09-20-2003, 08:39 AM
Uh, why play sabers only CTF anyway? The very nature of the sport requires you have have faster runners or guns that can shoot the runners down.

NITEMARE
09-20-2003, 09:48 AM
ctf without forces and weapons makes little sense. we tried it once but it was a real mess. the best thing was to turn on jedivsmerc, in our mod the mercs had better weapons like the disruptor sniper and mines & explosives...

Comm539
09-20-2003, 09:51 AM
Well said syn agree 100%

razorace you people are so hipocritical. You say 'this is Star Wars, we focus on sabers' then you go and say shoot him with a dock off gun. We play s/o becuase it requires some skill (or did). Guns are for unskillied spamwhoring aimbot people to use.
Why don't ff duelers duel with rocketlaunchers? Maybe they want sabers. Maybe we want sabers in ctf and atm, ravens removed everythin that requiered some skill in JO and replaced it with NOTHING, or a kata. gj.
I still reckon servers could get the otpion to turn individual things on/off like los gripping, kicks, ptk etc. That way other game types keep the stuff they don want out and the competetive community can have it and prolong whats turning out to be a short lived game.

razorace
09-20-2003, 10:13 AM
Hey now. Let's lay off the personal insults. I was only asking a reasonable question.

Anyway, I think the answer here is obvious. Just make a mini-mod that slightly slows down the flag carrier. OR make the sabers one hit kills and use Force Speed to catch up to the flag carrier.

JaledDur
09-20-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Hey now. Let's lay off the personal insults. I was only asking a reasonable question.

Anyway, I think the answer here is obvious. Just make a mini-mod that slightly slows down the flag carrier. OR make the sabers one hit kills and use Force Speed to catch up to the flag carrier.

I believe our only recourse to fixing these 'problems' is to mod the game. But as I have said a while back, we need to do this in a unified way. All the good coders like razorace that exist in this community need to come together and decide to do a mod. We need to hit it hard and fast so that we're not drowning in a sea of those 'other' mods by the time we release, but it will also require some planning and forethought.

I know a lot of you will want to wait and see if Raven 'fixes' these things, and I love Raven, they make really great games, but as I have said, they don't have the best track record here.

Does anyone have any idea when the SDK will be released?

JaledDur
09-20-2003, 03:43 PM
I was playing and just observed a disturbing occurrence -- almost every server I joined had their force regen time set to 0. I think you can figure out what this means.

the weiner dog!
09-20-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Uh, why play sabers only CTF anyway? The very nature of the sport requires you have have faster runners or guns that can shoot the runners down.

Umm no offense dude but here is a tip to all Lucas Forum members.

Full Force Saber only is the #1 game type in competitive play and has always been.

The 1v1 full force duel ladders out lasted every single 1v1 No Force duel ladder/league and had more participants than ANY other type of competition through the duration of JK2.

Full Force saber only Team FFA and Full Force saber only CTF had more (and still do) active clans than any other game type.

When the ladders for full weapon CTF dried up and died, the ff/so ones were still going strong and even as recent as two months ago when the game was considered totally "dead" by the masses, virtually every north American ff/so CTF clan competed in a large company sponsored competition.


I'm really trying to bite my tongue and not call you guys clueless, but I really don't think you guys (Lucas Forum People) grasp just how large of a competitive gaming community there is in JK2/JA.

I'm going to chalk it up to the fact that most competitive gamers don't come to sites like this but still, you guys need to realize this is not just a few disgruntled players making these posts.



And Prime,

You hit the nail right on the head.

I've said many times this game was designed and marketed for the "casual gamer/star wars fan" and almost 0 thought about game play mechanics other than the aesthetics was put it.

I made the statement before that "If you got owned in JK2 this is the game for you" and although many took offense to that it's becoming evidently clear that it was a correct assessment.


The game looks great, has great new "star wars" content, but as far as complexity, challenge, strategy and skill go it's been simplified to the level of a Game Boy Advance two-button mashing hand held game.



What really is making all of us mad is that all the "cool" star wars stuff could have been added *with out nerfing the game play and making it overly simplified.


And as for those of you who feel the need to chime in with trite catch phrases like "learn and adapt" do me a favor and actually read what people are discussing before you try to make brownie points.


No one and I mean NO ONE is saying we can't dominate the masses of players like we did in JK2.

I have utterly destroyed every player I have faced on public Jedi Academy servers just like I did in JK2.

The reason for this, is this game is about 80% Jedi Outcast and not to be mean, but most of you people are not nearly as good at this game or it's predecessor as you think you are.

The problem and issue we have is not "winning" on public servers against average players like yourself, it's competition level play against players on the same level of skill in competitive matches becomes a total stalemate in duels and CTF because of all the nerfing.

So please before you try to impress people with your catch phrases, actually pay attention to what people are debating first.

JaledDur
09-20-2003, 04:16 PM
What he said.

Comm539
09-20-2003, 04:19 PM
ditto

Prime
09-20-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
And Prime,

You hit the nail right on the head.

I've said many times this game was designed and marketed for the "casual gamer/star wars fan" and almost 0 thought about game play mechanics other than the aesthetics was put it. I disagree that zero thought has been put into gameplay, whether or not there is enough is up to you guys to decide. However, it is certainly within Raven and Lucasart's right to make the game they want to make. If that game is geared towards the casual gamer who does not care if moves take "skill", then you have to live with that (but can of course express your opinions), or make some mods.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
I made the statement before that "If you got owned in JK2 this is the game for you" and although many took offense to that it's becoming evidently clear that it was a correct assessment. My personal experience is that I am doing about as well in JA as I did in JO. I am not really a competative player, and I don't enter tournaments or things like that. In JO I usually finished in the top 20 percent or so on public servers (usually FF and NF duels and FFA/TFFA games). On the few servers I have been able to get on in JA, I seem to be doing about the same. Now I don't claim to be an elite player, but I don't think I am a complete newb either. I certainly didn't get ownt on a regular basis in JO, and I don't seem to be in JA. The impression (and granted I haven't been able to play a lot yet) I get is that if you sucked at JO, you are probably going to suck at JA.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
The game looks great, has great new "star wars" content, but as far as complexity, challenge, strategy and skill go it's been simplified to the level of a Game Boy Advance two-button mashing hand held game. From what I have seen, button-mashing does not lead to success in the long run in JA. I think good players will still beat bad players pretty consistently in the gametypes I mentioned. The skill level required may not be up to the level you want, but I don't think the outcomes in games are completely random either.

But again, even if it is and the game cateres to the average player, then it is likely because that was Raven's goal. You guys might not like the direction they took, but that is their perogative. From the little I've played I've enjoyed JA MP quite a bit (I've only played FF Duels, FF TFFA and FF FFA). I suppose I am a casual gamer, which means that when I play I try to frag other people, but I like that the ways I can do it are "Star Wars ways", if you understand what I am saying. Ultimately, I want to have fun. :) I play the JK seris because it is Star Wars, not because I am competative at FPSs.

For a lot of casual gamers, JO MP lost a lot of appeal because the many gametypes game turned into nothing but gripkicks and pullkicks. This took a lot of the Star Wars fun out of the game. I think this is why we don't see these moves in JA, not because Raven is trying to stick it to people. This doesn't mean that we all want to pretend that we are Jedi (although many RPGers wanted exactly that :( ). It means that this is one of the rare MP games where there are many players who are drawn to it for reasons other than it being a FPS.

So for me and my ilk, JA provides what I am looking for, and I get the impression that this is the game Rave/Lucasarts was trying to make. In this respect so far JA has been a big success, IMO. Many people might not like that or us, but I think the casual player's desires are just as valid as competative players.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
What really is making all of us mad is that all the "cool" star wars stuff could have been added *with out nerfing the game play and making it overly simplified. Perhaps it could. I don't presume to know enough about what reasons there were to make the game the way it is. But it is probably safe to assume that JA was not designed to require a high skill level and a win-at-any-costs attitute. Again, that is perfectly OK for Raven to do. As they have said on many occasions, they realize not everyone is going to be happy with the directions they take.

If I was a really competative player, I would not be holding my breath for a patch that turns JA into a competative players dream. It appears that that is not the game Raven/LA wanted to make. But that being said, Raven did not abandon you guys. Like they have said, they have made the game extremely customizable through cvars and moddability (I don't want to get into the viability of these things here). I would say that in the end it is probably going to be up to you guys (the competative community) to develop mods that cater to your tastes. This gives you complete freedom to get what you want. :)

Comm539
09-20-2003, 06:22 PM
Its not a question of whether a better player would beat a poorer player, that go's naturally.
It's the removal of features that's made s/o ctf unplayable. I heard most features from JO were available in JA beta, but were since removed. It's surely easy for raen to re-add these things, but make them togglable.

{DHU}Screed
09-20-2003, 11:28 PM
Ok, I just spent the last 3-4 hours playing MP in several diffent games, such as CTF, duel, power duel, siege etc.

FF/SO Duel games: there were none, they were all NF

Power Duel: Owned scores of people with just grip and drain.

CTF: One huge stalemate, I tried killing this guy for at least 25 mins, but to no avail was just healed and energized back to 100% health and force. So basically I accomplished diddly squat.

Siege: I had some fun playing this, kudos to Raven for creating RtCW, StarWars style.

There is no depth to this game, the only one that was enjoyable was Siege. Everything else was either frustrating and/or too boring.

[div3rse.jello]
09-20-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
The problem and issue we have is not "winning" on public servers against average players like yourself, it's competition level play against players on the same level of skill in competitive matches becomes a total stalemate in duels and CTF because of all the nerfing.

im still watchin theee div vs fk demo..hah

Comm539
09-20-2003, 11:37 PM
Duels are awesome, whoring butterfly and kata's, ridiculously weak sabers, insane saber hit blocking and no limit on saber staff and duel saber swing combos. Everything you want for a spamming fun game. If i was in a duel clan, i wouldn't be too happy right now either.

Did ctf again and got bored after 56 mins, still 0-0.

Prime
09-21-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Comm539
Did ctf again and got bored after 56 mins, still 0-0. But if the flag carrier is unstoppable, shouldn't the scores be super high or something, not scoreless? Isn't that how the scoring works? :confused:

noide
09-21-2003, 12:34 AM
no prime, because both cappers are unstoppable lol

Prime
09-21-2003, 01:01 AM
Because one team's flag has to be at its base before they can score with the other flag? I haven't played CTF in a long time, humor me.

g//plaZma
09-21-2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Prime
Because one team's flag has to be at its base before they can score with the other flag? I haven't played CTF in a long time, humor me.

Yeah. When both teams have the flag, no one can score because your flag has to be at your base to score. So untill one team kills the enemy fc, you, as an fc have to be constantly running and hiding so that you won't get killed. If you do get killed, it's almost certain that the other team will score.

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 01:20 AM
It's obvious that the mod community will never fix this.

The one key thing a mod needs to be successful is it's core game. If the base game does not constantly appeal to large audiences, especially it's competitive base, then a mod will hardly be successful. There are plenty of games that we could all theoretically have modded, but if the core game is never truly established, how are you going to mod it successfully?

JO had plenty of 'mods', but since the community was so busy being divided over the base game, the mods never took off. This isn't even taking into account that many of the mods merely enhanced the poorer qualities about JO, or what I like to call Chutes and Ladders. Every game has a little Chutes and Ladders in it, by the way.

What I find interesting is that S/O CTF is a defining feature of JA. It defines JA as a game. Guns are guns are guns.... with countless FPS' in existence, it has become difficult to somehow botch up the guns part of the game. However, FF Sabers Only tells you about the other half of the core game. CTF, because it has an objective that has little to do with actual personal fragging, and more to do with achieving an objective as quickly and smoothly as possible, is the perfect medium to 'tweak' or change JA for the competitive audience. As I said before, guns hardly need tweaking, it's the Force/Sabers that require some lovin'.

The JA for "commoners" has already been established. Everything about moves that made the common GBA player unhappy has been 'fixed'. No kicks, grip effectiveness completely gone, sabers even weaker than wiffle bats now (it's now glowing silly putty :p ) , Force powers completely useless besides drain and perhaps force jump when you want to leap away, and all the special moves require force power. No offense to the Raven staff, but they've just created the perfect game for the casual gamer, which is it's main audience. Good move... smart move.

I guess there is nothing wrong with this, however now the other half the community is once again crying for help. JO started out differently. The competitive half said "fix some minor bugs and we're cool" while the commoner half said "make this game simpler". Raven eventually moved towards the simpler and left the competitive half out. Perhaps this was a smart move, considering that there are more casual gamers than people looking for 'deep' games -- Gamers to be more apt.

My suggestion is this: A patch for JA, since JA is so much about 'customization and catering to the masses' should simply be divided into TWO GAMEPLAY MODES (this basically the same thing that Comm has been saying). The primary flaw with JA now is that the effectiveness of tactics vary across four or five different gaming modes. This doesn't help the competitive community, or even people like myself who are looking to play a standardized, in-depth game.

So, the call is for two games.

The patch would do the following: One version is left as it is. Anyone who has EVER posted the following phrase: "This isn't JO, it's JA, you suck", gets a patch that fixes whatever bugs exist, but leaves the gameplay in each of the modes relatively the same. It's common knowledge by now that a vast MAJORITY of casual gamers enjoy the star wars atmosphere present in JA. It's highly doubtful that they will ever make any huge demands about changing the gameplay. More likely, they'll demand that something get removed after a year or so.

The SECOND version, or the TOGGLE feature, would be the one that implements the melee system, the grip, the everything else BACK into the game. Saber damage and blocking gets returned to 1.02 JO levels. Why? Because, in general, we have NO standard for saber damage or blocking, we just know that post 1.02 wasn't working. What better way to do things than to start from the beginning again and go from there? That system was pretty good, and it's better than polling the community to simply come up with new numbers. Using the beginning as the standard, you simply start all over again. Return the saber combat back to what the single player, or even what the demo had going on. That means the special moves don't drain force... the DFA doesn't simply move in one direction, and the katas aren't entirely useless against a player that decides to flee.

This would be a "relatively simple" (okay, I actually have no idea how much work that would require, probably tons of it), to do, AND you WOULD NOT anger a majority of your Casual population. The "Gamers" would not get any new bells and whistles, so it wouldn't be "unfair". The Casuals can then make threads about how they play the 'real' JA, and the Gamers can sit back, laugh a little, and continue playing their version of the game. Yes, the community would be split... yet perhaps they would still both be able to thrive. The current system will only drive the Gamers out, leading to yet another mass exodus. The other way.... perhaps would give the game a longer life span. Perhaps.

but that's my suggestion. bottom line: two games, EASILY togglable. You don't have to call the toggle "Pro Mode", just call it "tournament" mode or "Nightmare" mode or "Competition" mode. In this new mode, the kick effects, saber damage, etc. would be STANDARDIZED ACROSS ALL GAME TYPES. So the competitive community could then start from scratch, EVERYONE LEARNS THE SAME TACTICS, OR SOMETHING SIMILAR, and then competition can even become interchangable. Sometimes the duelers might want to try out some CTF, etc. But if they are ALL different, it just causes a massive split. Nothing will thrive.

So ends my post.

:bdroid2: <----- I am a Battledroid...

Rad Blackrose
09-21-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
:bdroid2: <----- I am a Battledroid...

More like Professor Longwinded.

Good post.

thelastaod
09-21-2003, 02:40 AM
< completely agrees with anything that has been said about JA mp needing fixing. ive heard that the beta did have kicks, so it really shouldnt be that hard to reprogram it into a patch. please do so, as you (RAVEN) are most likely going to loose the competetive portion of the gamers who played jk2 and would like to play jk3.

Pyro
09-21-2003, 02:50 AM
kicking is dumb learn some skill noobies

Lord Storm
09-21-2003, 03:12 AM
The thing is, this game wasn't developed with the "professional" player in mind (in fact I don't think there is a game out there made with this type of player in mind, except maybe MS Flight Sim). Just casual "joes" like me, who are big Star Wars fans. You can't introduce a whole new fight system when your fan base has finally got a hold of the old one. Sure you can introduce new features, but many people get frustrated with learning new combos. A game with a high learning curve just doesn't sell.

I'm 29, and If I learn a combo it's purely accidental. Hell, I just learned yesterday that you can turn one lightsaber off when using dual sabers.

Raven should've done this...Raven should've done that...It's the same selfish BS I hear with every game. This is what mod makers are for to create a game that will cater to our "elite's" (and I use that term loosely) needs, while preserving the base game for the average "joes," the way it was meant to be played. Raven's job is to fix bugs, and maybe release a map or two.

g//plaZma
09-21-2003, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Lord Storm
The thing is, this game wasn't developed with the "professional" player in mind (in fact I don't think there is a game out there made with this type of player in mind, except maybe MS Flight Sim). Just casual "joes" like me, who are big Star Wars fans. You can't introduce a whole new fight system when your fan base has finally got a hold of the old one. Sure you can introduce new features, but many people get frustrated with learning new combos. A game with a high learning curve just doesn't sell.

I'm 29, and If I learn a combo it's purely accidental. Hell, I just learned yesterday that you can turn one lightsaber off when using dual sabers.

Raven should've done this...Raven should've done that...It's the same selfish BS I hear with every game. This is what mod makers are for to create a game that will cater to our "elite's" (and I use that term loosely) needs, while preserving the base game for the average "joes," the way it was meant to be played. Raven's job is to fix bugs, and maybe release a map or two.

MS Flight Sim for professional gamers? omg please... You can't even compete on that. Quake3 is a professionally played game. This game runs on the quake3 engine so it is very possible to play competitively on it. JK2 had a huge competitive community and was played competitively. Yet, the average casual gamer could have fun with it.

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
im still watchin theee div vs fk demo..hah

Send me that bro, that match was smokin


Anyways, I agree with what weiner dog said completely (its hard repressing laughter while reading that)

The problem with JA is

1. Saber damage is down
2. High damaging moves, such as Lunge, takes force
3. Complex combos are nerfed
4. Because saber is down and high damaging moves take force, and there are no complex combos, drain whoring is so easy you could play a 5hr duel match and the winner decided by who needed to go to the bathroom first

And all you people who are saying "Raven did a good job this, Raven is this and that, blah blah blah!" Open your eyes. This games main focus is holding down Attack1 and Alt attack. No combos, specials with force, how are you going to kill your opponent (providing that you want to and aren't an rpger) besides whailing your saber around like an idiot. Stop sucking up to Raven because you idolize them so much and realize that this game is only fun if you want to "Lo0k lik3 d4r7h maUL 4nD sW1nG ju0r s4b3r ar0und!!!11111oneoneone Lik3 in t3h mov13s!!111oneone". And I'm not trying to bash Raven, but this game shouldn't be called an FPS, because competition in this game (with players who know what they're doing and dont blindly walk in katas) is just not going to work. End of story. Don't say 'give it more time' because this is JO with a few more physics (like ****ty roll) some new ub3r k3wl j3d1 lik3 m0ves!!111 (kata) and nerfed combos (kick, grip kick, grip, ptk, etc). What's new to learn?

razorace
09-21-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Stuff.

Well, I agree with the mod confusion of JK2. It was a huge mess. That's why I've been pushing the Open Jedi Project (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104564). We need a unifed development platform to add important/cool features to the game in addition to fixing stuff that Raven hasn't touched.

However, the two modes idea for JKA isn't going to happen. Expecting Raven to cater to the "competitive" gamers (especially when they are extremely elitist and will never stop whining) isn't going to happen.

Speaking of which, you guys really gotta lay off the elitism. Noone can have a intelligent discussion with you (or agree with you) if you start slamming/labelling them the second they don't 100% agree with you.

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 03:46 AM
Precisely.

I'm quite impressed that so far, we've only had about three useless comments in this thread, most of which consisted of "learn s0m3 sk111z0rz". That's good, it's easily ignored.

However, I think it also points back to my suggestion. Next patch should = Two different styles of game.

One for the latest "you suxx0r for k111l1ng m3 t00 f4st!! and one for the people who accept kicking, pulling, throwing, and sabers that actually keep a player from simply healing the damage away.

We need one where the casual players, most of whom have huge egos that they can hardly supress, can continue playing the original version and stay content, and another where everyone else can enjoy their competitive play once again.

It's asking a lot, but the community needs a STANDARD from Raven. The community cannot fix it or establish it, it's been tried, tested, and proven FALSE. I think the fate of JA as a game that competitors will enjoy is in the total hands of Raven at this moment (not to put any unwanted, unneccessary pressure on them :p ). what they decided to do, or better, what Lucasarts even decides to LET Raven do will determine if this game will also simply die a quick 1 year death of pain.

Here's beggin' to Raven for some help. Give the competitors a seperate game, if possible and tolerable. :cool:

Catalyst
09-21-2003, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by Comm539

Did ctf again and got bored after 56 mins, still 0-0.

Thats interesting, I just did a CTF with 16 people and both games ended in decent amount of time...5/4 and 5/2. I dont see how kick would help you stop anyone at all if you are chasing them...perhaps its about time you people stop crying and try new tactics.

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 03:49 AM
It probobly will, it probobly won't. What I want to know is why Raven takes an amazing competetive/non-competetive game (despite a few bugs) like JO and make a sequel that takes competetive gaming and slams it in the ground.

Side
09-21-2003, 03:51 AM
catalyst....go hide man,we are not talkin bout server filled with people named "aznPeace"...aka newbie holding the flag

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by Catalyst
Thats interesting, I just did a CTF with 16 people and both games ended in decent amount of time...5/4 and 5/2. I dont see how kick would help you stop anyone at all if you are chasing them...perhaps its about time you people stop crying and try new tactics.

Bro, know your audience. We all play CTF with a PASSION. We know when the game has gone to far, and this time, s/o CTF has been, to put it in terms we can all understand, owned! Playing with 16 players is one thing, but playing with 16 skilled players who have played CTF since the game (jo) was out is ANOTHER thing.

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 03:52 AM
Well Razorace, you're right on the one point.

I don't consider myself an elite player by any means, and the chances of getting two games is slim to none, but I figured I'd throw that out there.

At the same time, it's quite hard not to sound "elite" when a discussion about game issues is constantly bombarded by useless comments like "kick sucks". No reasoning, no logical "balance issues" are involved with it. It's just a complaint about something that the said player is incapable of performing.

On the other hand, I feel the comments of the other players, while sometimes perhaps whining (myself included), is still based on some kind of logical reasoning or desire, as opposed to just "it suxs". The people who were interested in a Jedi like atmosphere and zero competition have gotten there way hands down almost every time. I feel the more competitive, or 'elite' could use just a little bit of recognition, or better... some MERCY from Raven on this one.

I also don't see WHY giving a patch that makes two games would be so wrong. Just a toggle that sets a bunch of default CVARS and the kick system put back in would work. I know, it's not THAT simple to set it up, but seriously.... just a bunch of default CVARS and the kicks and such put in, and the ability to switch between one default set and another. this way, both crowds are somewhat happy. When discussions happen, people will know which Default game they are playing, and it gets balanced accordingly for Competition style or Standard. Perhaps it's more work, but at the same time, perhaps less backlash as well.

g//plaZma
09-21-2003, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Catalyst
Thats interesting, I just did a CTF with 16 people and both games ended in decent amount of time...5/4 and 5/2. I dont see how kick would help you stop anyone at all if you are chasing them...perhaps its about time you people stop crying and try new tactics.

Maybe you should try playing a game with vet JK2 ff/so CTF players who know what they are doing. The score will stand at 0-0.

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 03:55 AM
Nice post shaft.

Since JO the non competetive community has whined about everything, from Kick Lam3rZ!!11 to Pull Throw Kick whorez. Now it looks like this time they've gotten more than a piece of what they wanted, they got the whole damn cake.

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 04:11 AM
Competitive, profesional gameplay?
"We ctf players"?

What the f-uck are you all talking about, with you all i mean wheiner dog, rumor, traj, diverse, comm and all those dorks that agreed 100% with this thread. My god specially rumor, man you have no shame, you need a good but-**** to settle down.
I wont track all the stupiditys you all have said while i was reading the thread.

Where exactly did you play JO, in lan?
If so, then download a mod so you and your clanmates can play it at will.

You really ****ed the exitment i had for JA.

People played JO at their homes, in public servers.
If you consider yourself competitive or profesional because you have a clan or because you played/won another dorky tournament in any of the 50 states US has, well you probably be right, you are pros, but it doesnt mean you play better than me, i could kick your ass or any of your friends anytime, it means you are official nerds, who officially played JO for too long and now cant handle a new game.

Every person who played JO for more than a day is absolutely disapointed for JA (the kicks, the damage, all that).
The people who said "play the game", "just wait for a mod" and all that, is very disapointed indeed, its just that they move on.

Is really JA MP that bad (i dont have it), but if it is then send a formal letter to RAven with the signature of ALLLLLLLLLLLLL the people complaining and telling them how you want the game to be, do something important and more trascendant tham crying and dreaming they make a patch.

I agree with the first post in this thread of whiner dog, but no the kicks JO had, cause they were simply unreal, but the staff kicks for all clasess is a good idea.
Yes it was fun to pull kick a noob and not letting him stand up, yes it took skill, but do you all really want to have that kind of skill. Well i am tired of that, and i dont wana get skilled in any of that crap again.
If a patch must be made, it must be a well balanced one, that has corrected all the wrongs and bads, and also, one that doesnt add more wrongs and bads. To do that they should take their time to make really good patch so that in theory it wont need another (in theory).

I think, i made my point, if not, ill post again.

:shades2: :vamp1:

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Maybe you should try playing a game with vet JK2 ff/so CTF players who know what they are doing. The score will stand at 0-0.

Have fun, idiot.

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 04:21 AM
By competetive players I think we mean people who actually COMPETE instead of playing in ffa_bespin private dueling and amsitting like the other half of the JO community.

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 04:24 AM
Your point is duly noted, and once again, i must question if you were even processing what was being said.

First off, when they say professional... yes, there is a thing going around where some "clans" are actually sponsored. Hence, professional. You can't be sponsored if you don't stay active, hence professional.

Second, at no point in time did anyone say that being in a clan meant "elite" status. Perhaps people come off as a elite, but in this case, I think it's safe to say that they are elite at what they do.

Third, they obviously do not play on a lan. They are all in different clans, and they compete against each other. I don't know how regularly it is done, but they compete, and they do serious competition, they play to win, they tweak the game for what it's worth. Once again, your comments are foiled.

Fourth, your comment about kicking their butts.... sigh... you also fit into that category of "gamer with large ego". If you could kick their butts, perhaps you would seek them out and kick it. Just to give you a little back history on these people. They RARELY, if EVER, post on these forums to present useless claims about gameplay issues. I have never SEEN an fk member say "i think we should look like jedi more and have cooler saber effects" nor have I seen rumour or the like ever comment on something that had nothing to do with any kind of gameplay, like something about cosmetics.

Fifth, your comment was nothing more than a flame, even though the thread says specifically that you should have a discussion and not flame. So far, you came in with the following comments.

1.) I haven't even played the game yet.
2.) I don't play s/o ctf competitively (therefore pretty much exempting your comment about destroying all of them.

It's quite illogical of you to believe that a bunch of good players that actually practice playing s/o ctf are going to lose to a 'possibly good player' who does not play it regularly.

3.) You guys are just whiners because you don't want to adjust to new tactics.

Once again, these guys have explained 1 billion times that they've already given JA and extensive go, and after 1 hour, 2 hours of gameplay, they literally came to STALEMATES. Professionally sponsored clans that play nothing but CTF coming into STALEMATES. This just doesn't happen in a game this soon...... unless JA is ACTUALLY VERY SIMILAR TO JO!! And if that's the case, then their original analysis about removed attack options being a poor decision was correct.

4.) I think the game needs to be balanced.

That's the point of this thread as well. S/O CTF just want their version of the game fixed. They're hardly even concerned with what happens to FFA or Siege, etc. Just S/O.


Please people.... just please..... stop coming here calling people dorks and then trying to convince that you, the people who don't even COMPETE OR PLAY this game type seriously and consistently, somehow have the insight of the stradegy or know-how that was simply missed. This is not one of your typical "my saber isn't blue enough to fit the movies" threads or "I think that force lightning is too powerful" (it's hardly noticeable in this game). It's a serious, well-thought, well examined argument. Suggestions are needed, not comments about your 'supposed' skillz.

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 04:29 AM
Now there's a post worth reading, couldn't have said it better myself Shaft

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 04:32 AM
shaft for president....again..

nor have I seen rumour in the like ever comment on something that had nothing to do with any kind of gameplay, like something about cosmetics.


laff..oh yeah myth..pm me ur aim for the smoking demos

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 04:35 AM
I dont have AIM, catch me on IRC or MSN

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 04:41 AM
Well i want to post again to take out a post i felt the need to remember.

Originally posted by Rumor
I work full time, i'm currently remodelling my house, raising 16 (yes, SIXTEEN) puppies, going to school, learning photoshop/maya/webdesign, and i play sports and go do **** with my friends, plus i hunt and fish and go camping. i'm an Assistant Scoutmaster.


After all that he said.

Originally posted by Rumor
No life my ass.
.
.
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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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.
The most amusing part was when he said "(yes, SIXTEEN)"
You can all find that in the 5th page of "MP, omg", if you dont believe it.
I hope Rumor you now realize how incredibly pathetic YOU are.
You can thank me later :D

Ohh, by the wya, sorry doctor i didnt read your whole post (i stopped in the second paragraph).
I am sure you had something to share, hahaha.

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 04:44 AM
No offense taken, it's always too long, and written poorly anyway. I have no patience to excel in the written word. :D

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 04:46 AM
You claned noobs and your fruity pms and fruity aids (yeah jello and myth), cya at MP when i get it.
Can you please give me your MP names so i can remember you when i pO-wn ya. Than you.

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
No offense taken, it's always too long, and written poorly anyway. I have no patience to excel in the written word. :D

Now thats a cool atitude.


Peace.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by thelastaod
< completely agrees with anything that has been said about JA mp needing fixing. ive heard that the beta did have kicks, so it really shouldnt be that hard to reprogram it into a patch. please do so, as you (RAVEN) are most likely going to loose the competetive portion of the gamers who played jk2 and would like to play jk3.

and if they fix it that would mean that possibly several thousand extra copies of the game being sold...

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 04:51 AM
[div3rse.jello]

[div3rse] CTF 64.237.35.160 in JO

ill be on 2mmrw

i could easily report that to a moderator but ill lay off the pansiness

Rumor
09-21-2003, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by Catalyst
Thats interesting, I just did a CTF with 16 people and both games ended in decent amount of time...5/4 and 5/2. I dont see how kick would help you stop anyone at all if you are chasing them...perhaps its about time you people stop crying and try new tactics.

we aren't talking guns catalyst. and we aren't talking everyday pub s/o ctf, we're talking top clans.

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 05:16 AM
bah JO
Who plays JO now?, only noobs as far as i know.
The best players quited it a long time ago.
Lat time i played JO was in february or march, as i said in another post i destroyed the cd.
I was talking about JA, what is "cya at MP, when i get it" means.


And dude, report all you want, its not my prob that you are a sisy, unless you are a girl in which case it all makes sense, and therefor i apologise.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
Well i want to post again to take out a post i felt the need to remember.



After all that he said.


.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The most amusing part was when he said "(yes, SIXTEEN)"
You can all find that in the 5th page of "MP, omg", if you dont believe it.
I hope Rumor you now realize how incredibly pathetic YOU are.
You can thank me later :D

Ohh, by the wya, sorry doctor i didnt read your whole post (i stopped in the second paragraph).
I am sure you had something to share, hahaha.

and you call me pathetic?

do you realize how much of a time investment it is when you have to hand feed 16 pups every three hours, since the day they were born? you are the most pathetic excuse for a human being i've ever seen. Dr. Kevorkian really looks to be a nice guy now...

do i need to spell out the second part for you in third grade english? it means "<sarcasm> yeah, i have no life </sarcasm>"

notice the sarcasm tags. that means i'm being facetious, aka I"M SAYING THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

and you seriously have the gall to say i'm pathetic because i have a life that doesn't revolve around a starwars game?

get a life.

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 05:23 AM
yes vegeta

and here you are posting your opinions about JO and JA when you have NEITHER of the games

Rumor
09-21-2003, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
bah JO
Who plays JO now?, only noobs as far as i know.
The best players quited it a long time ago.
Lat time i played JO was in february or march, as i said in another post i destroyed the cd.
I was talking about JA, what is "cya at MP, when i get it" means.


And dude, report all you want, its not my prob that you are a sisy, unless you are a girl in which case it all makes sense, and therefor i apologise.

wow, i think you must be the biggest tool i've ever seen.

i don't report posts that insult me, asshat, i reply to them.

and since you obviously have no clue as to who is playing jo, you obviously don't know that ALL of the s/o ctf clans still play it when they aren't spending a couple hours at a time trying to find new ways to kill cappers. not to mention some of the oldschool, for lack of a better word, "elite" ff/so duelers have been playing it as well.

you said you could own me, so i challenged you, not my fault that you backed down. go ask your mother for money so you can go to the movies with your friends, i'm sure she doesn't mind giving her live-at-home 30 year old son who has the mental capacity and maturity of a three year old anything he wants.

Prime
09-21-2003, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by [fk]myth.
And all you people who are saying "Raven did a good job this, Raven is this and that, blah blah blah!" Open your eyes. This games main focus is holding down Attack1 and Alt attack. No combos, specials with force, how are you going to kill your opponent (providing that you want to and aren't an rpger) besides whailing your saber around like an idiot. Stop sucking up to Raven because you idolize them so much and realize that this game is only fun if you want to "Lo0k lik3 d4r7h maUL 4nD sW1nG ju0r s4b3r ar0und!!!11111oneoneone Lik3 in t3h mov13s!!111oneone". And I'm not trying to bash Raven, but this game shouldn't be called an FPS, because competition in this game (with players who know what they're doing and dont blindly walk in katas) is just not going to work. End of story. Don't say 'give it more time' because this is JO with a few more physics (like ****ty roll) some new ub3r k3wl j3d1 lik3 m0ves!!111 (kata) and nerfed combos (kick, grip kick, grip, ptk, etc). What's new to learn? So you're saying that JA is only fun for people who don't care about being competative, and just want to get out and swing lighsabers around and do things resembling what Star Wars fans have seen in the movies. You are also saying that there is no competative value in JA and it just isn't going to work. End of Story.

Good. I'm glad we got that settled. Now we can close all these threads because there is no point talking about what might change JA into a competative game, because it isn't going to work. [/rant] I don't mind discussing the issues, but saying that anyone who disagrees with you is sucking up to Raven "because they are our heroes" doesn't help anything (except trying to make yourself feel better).

P.S. The non competative community is not the only group who has whined about JO/JA.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
On the other hand, I feel the comments of the other players, while sometimes perhaps whining (myself included), is still based on some kind of logical reasoning or desire, as opposed to just "it suxs". There do seem to be some valid issues and suggestions here, but understand that trying to express these by flaming people and ranting that Raven has ruined everyone lives is not really helping the S/O cause. This problem is magnified because many of us who have been on these boards since the release of JO remember all the initial ranting about very minor things ("I got ownt by DFA!"). So when we see rants about the game right off the bat, the initial reaction is to brush it off as just whining about not being good right away. This thread has improved a bit in this regard, but there are still plenty of threads that where the initial poster just flies off the handle demanding justice be served. I doubt this will gain anyone a patient ear or sympathy, especailly from Raven, who have seen plenty of that before :) At least if everyone can remain civil, something might get accomplished :)

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
...comments like "kick sucks". No reasoning, no logical "balance issues" are involved with it. It's just a complaint about something that the said player is incapable of performing.
I agree that there has been a lot of "kicks sux" ranting around here. I will try and give you some reasons why I don't like it, at least from my point of view. :)

I more or less represent the casual, semi-competative gamer. As I have said before, I like the JK series because it is Star Wars, not necessarily because it is a FPS. This means that I want the game to at least have a pretty decent SW feel to it. I realize that MP isn't going to be good as SP for this, but it still can make us feel like we are in a big Star Wars battle. I think there are two related reasons why kicks were railed against so much in JO. The first is that kicks of this nature just do not fit into the SW theme, at least not in the constant flip-kicking sense. I mean, the flip-kick just doesn't look good, and no one in SW is kicking all the time. If it was not spammed, and only used once and a while, I don't think anyone would really have had a problem with it. Casual gamers seem to be quite happy with the staff kick, for example. Now, the reason why it was spammed was because it did damage directly to health and knocked people down, thus leave their opponent defenceless. Which pretty much makes it the deadliest weapon in a S/O game. We can all see why it was spammed, but the casual gamers don't like that it is. Now, I can just feel all the competative gamers frothing at the mouth, but just bare with me. :)

Now let me see if I understand the competative S/O CTF player argument. The issue you are having is that basically there is no real way to kill a FC consistently. The lightsaber cannot do the job, so you are left to use other means, which in JO was the flipkick. This gave you the ability to knock someone down, either over ledges or to leave them open to attack. You need this because the lightsaber isn't good enough to kill. Is this more or less what you guys are saying?

As I see it, having a flipkick is not inherently what makes CTF work. All you really need is a means to kill the flag carrier. Whether the kill comes from the lightsaber or kick doesn't really matter (and this really goes for any S/O game). Like some of you guys have said, you don't care how it looks. You would be happy with spoons, if that was the most effective thing :)

I guess all I would hope is that whatever the solution would be to make kills easier in S/O games, that it have some basis in SW. Ideally, I'd like to see lightsaber be the effective weapon it really should be. If cranking up the damage makes the difference, I'm all for that. First because it will seem like SW, and secondly because there will be lots of frags. From where I stand I don't see the ability to knock someone down as necessary if you can kill an FC fairly easily without it. But if it is necessary, I'd like to see either the power of push/pull to potentially knock someone down, or if a kick is better, at least make the kick look like a kick, and not make it look like you are running up someones face. Also make the kick less damaging than the lightsaber, as to keep with the SW themes. Also, from my limited experience with the gametype, I don't see team heal (and energize?) as really being necessary for the success of the game. Why not just get rid of it all together?

Just some thoughts from Mr. Casual Gamer.

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
and you call me pathetic?

do you realize how much of a time investment it is when you have to hand feed 16 pups every three hours, since the day they were born? you are the most pathetic excuse for a human being i've ever seen. Dr. Kevorkian really looks to be a nice guy now...

do i need to spell out the second part for you in third grade english? it means "<sarcasm> yeah, i have no life </sarcasm>"

notice the sarcasm tags. that means i'm being facetious, aka I"M SAYING THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

and you seriously have the gall to say i'm pathetic because i have a life that doesn't revolve around a starwars game?

get a life.

ROFL

"you are the most pathetic excuse for a human being i ve ever seen", lol what is that suposed to mean, and i am absolutely sure you didnt mean that with sarcasm.
And who the f-uck is Dr Kervokian?

And well, "Too many puppies".

Rumor
09-21-2003, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
ROFL

"you are the most pathetic excuse for a human being i ve ever seen", lol what is that suposed to mean, and i am absolutely sure you didnt mean that with sarcasm.
And who the f-uck is Dr Kervokian?

And well, "Too many puppies".

my last post just explained why you don't know who he is. not to mention how you have no idea what we are speaking of.

i suggest you learn to respect your fellow poster and not flame every chance you get. it just shows you to be dumber, and gets you one step closer to a ban...

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 05:44 AM
I see what you're getting at Prime. To be honest, I'm not a 'fan' of the kick system either, but it's there, and I always felt that amidst the constant saber spamming, etc., there has to be at least one or two good, solid moves to counter it.

Unfortunately, kick ended up being more than just a good counter. On the other hand, if it makes the game deeper, and doesn't entirely ruin the experience for me, i'm all for it.

I'm more of a casual guy myself as well. I won't try to make things work for me when the game seems to be generally not fun. However, kicking never annoyed me to the point where I felt it was just plain wrong. It was part of the game, and it seemed a necessary part.

The only REAL way to have a good game like S/O CTF without kicks would be to just completely revamp, reimplement the saber system. That would probably mean that even some of the stances, like Red stance, would have to be just redone, and the moves would all have to be geared towards just being able to gut a person if they run. That's not what exists though, and it won't exist, that's probably just too hard to do. So, we all turn to good ole kick. And some other things of course.

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 05:48 AM
doctor shaft understands too much of teh saberists o.o

him > all

he is teh 2 cool.. lol

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
wow, i think you must be the biggest tool i've ever seen.

i don't report posts that insult me, asshat, i reply to them.

and since you obviously have no clue as to who is playing jo, you obviously don't know that ALL of the s/o ctf clans still play it when they aren't spending a couple hours at a time trying to find new ways to kill cappers. not to mention some of the oldschool, for lack of a better word, "elite" ff/so duelers have been playing it as well.

you said you could own me, so i challenged you, not my fault that you backed down. go ask your mother for money so you can go to the movies with your friends, i'm sure she doesn't mind giving her live-at-home 30 year old son who has the mental capacity and maturity of a three year old anything he wants.

About the reports i was talking to divex.

And i dont have a clue about who is playing JO now?
Oldschool and l33t players just stopped playing it after a year it was released (aproximately), now i see why you all consider elites and pros, because 90 percent of the people dont play JO anymore, lol.

My opinion of JA is, PLAY THE DEMMN GAME, and wait for a goooood patche that hopefully make the game more fun and less disapointing.
If JA turns to be like JO (with a lot of ****ed patches) it would be all your fault, for crying about stuff that was fun, but no real or balanced.
I really hope that with this features MP would be more saber fighting and less pull push kick dfa whored.
Just think about, for a second, how diferent you played JO 6 or 12 months after you first played it.
With that i mean, PLAY THE DEMMN GAME

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 05:54 AM
Prime, glad you posted something that isn't a flame, unfortunately I'm going to sleep and will read it in the morning.

As for AxVegetA, Why are you here? Did you not read this post or just saw the topic and assumed this was your chance to act cool. This thread was made for people who wanted to discuss MP problems seriously, hence the name. Flames are not welcome, hence the name again. Why are you here flaming us saying we suck and you own us when you haven't played JK2 since February and you haven't even bought JKA. You haven't even played this series since back at the start of the year, and you aren't even an avid FF S/o CTF Player (again, why are you here?) So don't come mouthing off to all of us who are trying to have a discussion thinking your the bad ass of the forums and think before you act like a complete moron and everyone laughs at you. Talk about EGO! I'm personally going to enjoy playing with you, and if you want my in-game name take a look at my username. And, please, reply to this if you must, but after that leave and never reply to a post in this thread again because you are not wanted.

Guardian Omega
09-21-2003, 05:57 AM
Oooh boy, there's another one that didn't read everything........

They're asking for an option that'll make the changes toggable......

*reads last post*

Well, he has the name of Vegeta, aka the ego manic that gets his ass kicked in most of DBZ.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:00 AM
not one thing we've said has sunk into that walnut sized head of yours, has it? WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT FREE FOR ALL. WE ONLY CARE ABOUT THE GAMETYPES THAT WE, NOT YOU, PLAY.

have a field day posting about how we have no lives, kid, i doubt i'll reply to anything else since what needs to be said has been said.

have fun stepping closer to that ban.

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
my last post just explained why you don't know who he is. not to mention how you have no idea what we are speaking of.

i suggest you learn to respect your fellow poster and not flame every chance you get. it just shows you to be dumber, and gets you one step closer to a ban...

Ohhh and now you are playing the Good guy after talking crap, in the first pages of the thread, to the guys who "difered" from your opinion.

And you really think people is gona read 40 lines of shi-t, save me the time.

And because of you, and the one who started the "OMG, MP sux" thread, all my espectations for JA are gone, i am getting a game i lose excitment on.
Thats all you gain with your negative opinions about the game, to disapoint eveybody who reads it about MP and you too.
One thing is constructive criticism and another is crying like a baby because now you cant own as in JO.

[div3rse.syn]
09-21-2003, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Pyro
kicking is dumb learn some skill noobies


All I have to say to you, is that I would beat the living christ out of you in any gametype, any day. Why? Because if you think kicking is noobtacular...you don't deserve to own JK2 or JKA. How about you read any of the posts made in this topic and shut your face?

That being said, everyone keeps hitting on the fact that JKA = game for casual gamer. NO ****ING ****. My question is - was JK2 1.04 THAT difficult for your average gamer to get into? NO. If Raven wanted to cater to the average gamer, they could've added in their flashy new kata's and changed the animations around and the newbs wouldn't have noticed a thing. The rest of us would get a revitalized JK2 to compete in...and everyone is happy. Instead, Raven ignores the part of the community that keeps it ALIVE...good call. Sure, the casual gamer represents the majority and all...but the competitors are the ones that get the spot light on the game - that is good PR, that is what gets your next game hyped upon, and THAT is good game making.

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 06:07 AM
you dont play s/o ctf vegeta..why do you care

go buy it if you want

siege and powerduel aint bad

SuperNub
09-21-2003, 06:07 AM
And dude, report all you want, its not my prob that you are a sisy, unless you are a girl in which case it all makes sense, and therefor i apologise.

Whats with people like this? ..lets see, for one the topic blatantly asked not for flames. Two, if you're going to attempt to flame someone learn how to spell above the 2nd grade level. And third, isn't calling somone a dork and saying they have no life over an internet forum extrememly hypocritical?

Thats like me being on a float for a gay pride parade and calling everyone I see fags. Please, grow up kiddo.

I'm sure your ego has been smashed many of times, as it can be seen by your horrid insults and obvious insecurities. I feel sorry for you, really. Just another person who got their ass beat time and time again in JO and take it out on people who are better then them and insult them?

Maybe you should get laid, or take a long look in the mirror. Either way, I think your own insults should be fired upon yourself as it seems to fit you more so then anybody else here.

gf

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]
All I have to say to you, is that I would beat the living christ out of you in any gametype, any day. Why? Because if you think kicking is noobtacular...you don't deserve to own JK2 or JKA. How about you read any of the posts made in this topic and shut your face?

That being said, everyone keeps hitting on the fact that JKA = game for casual gamer. NO ****ING ****. My question is - was JK2 1.04 THAT difficult for your average gamer to get into? NO. If Raven wanted to cater to the average gamer, they could've added in their flashy new kata's and changed the animations around and the newbs wouldn't have noticed a thing. The rest of us would get a revitalized JK2 to compete in...and everyone is happy. Instead, Raven ignores the part of the community that keeps it ALIVE...good call. Sure, the casual gamer represents the majority and all...but the competitors are the ones that get the spot light on the game - that is good PR, that is what gets your next game hyped upon, and THAT is good game making.

lol every post about how kicks suck, etc that pyro has made is total blatant sarcasm. if i didn't know him, i would think he was for real, too. :cool:

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by SuperNub
Whats with people like this? ..lets see, for one the topic blatantly asked not for flames. Two, if you're going to attempt to flame someone learn how to spell above the 2nd grade level. And third, isn't calling somone a dork and saying they have no life over an internet forum extrememly hypocritical?

Thats like me being on a float for a gay pride parade and calling everyone I see fags. Please, grow up kiddo.

I'm sure your ego has been smashed many of times, as it can be seen by your horrid insults and obvious insecurities. I feel sorry for you, really. Just another person who got their ass beat time and time again in JO and take it out on people who are better then them and insult them?

Maybe you should get laid, or take a long look in the mirror. Either way, I think your own insults should be fired upon yourself as it seems to fit you more so then anybody else here.

gf

ROFL
Dude, where to start, if you where touched by my words i am sorry (i am not really), i didnt said all that for nothing, i think i made my point in my last post.

My gramar is because i speak spanish.

I am not dork, but you sure are, and i dont think forums are for dorks, but for people who like games, specially a game i ve been wanted for a long time. IS that wrong?

About my ego, rofl, i am the one who smashes YOU.

And whats the problem with my insults, besides the fact it bothered you, hahaha (what an idiot).

Insecurities? lol
Kiddo?

My insults should be fired upon myself? cant you be anymore original? kiddo?
-stupid
-you are the stupid

And i wasnt talking to you in first place, you piece of ****, you dont worth it.
All i know from you is that you are named supernub.

Next time if you feel emotionally touched about that, reply to your wall.

hehe :smirk2:

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:37 AM
look, its desnipa v3.0 / apockalypse/unwanted v2.0!

I am #1 and that is how it will stay
U WER OWNT BAI MY WERdS GG
O
W
N
E
D :p

^ all classic quotes from the two of them.

now for christs sake stick to the topic at hand.

DeliriumenD
09-21-2003, 06:37 AM
Y'know, the first post asked for constructive criticism, and so the majority of my post IS going to attempt to be constructive and address things (the constructive arguments I've seen) in it. And I apologize to all the people having a good discussion for all the caps about to follow this before my addition to the discussion.

YOU ELITIST A-HOLES (BOTH COMPETITIVE PLAYERS AND THE STARWARS FANBOYS(YES i'M IN THIS GROUP FOR JA) ) NEED TO SHUT UP AND LEARN HOW TO DEBATE WITHOUT INSULTING EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T YOUR WAY. HOW MANY DAMN TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SEE A GOOD POST WITH A GOOD DEBATE GET TURNED INTO A FLAME FEST BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO PUT DOWN THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT? IT'S POINTLESS, PATHETIC, AND A WASTE OF TIME I'M JUSTIFYING BY RESPONDING IN KIND, BUT I'M NOT PERFECT!!!

Now, for my additions to the debate.

On kick, I know why this was probably pulled out. It was very annoying for the casual gamer (who makes up the majority of gamers now sadly) to join a public server, and basically not have a chance to have fun because of people grip throwing them off cliffs, and when they weren't doing that, kicking them again and again until they died. Now you guys have a point about how it kills the high competitive side, but at the same time pissing off 60% of your player base, hell, pissing off 51% of your player base is an even worse thing to do.

I want to clarify again that I read the first post, and I still feel that while saber damage SHOULD be raised, kick, non-line of sight grip, and the other stuff you guys are asking for should be made togglable. You people say noone does the toggles, but then again you are also basing all of your arguments on your elite-level (not the sarcastic elite, I am sure you guys know what you're talking about when you say which groups are elite. Much like I did when I played TRIBES (not 2, we had our "JA" in the Tribes series with 2) ) games between the best of the best in the competitive league. So really, it shouldn't be hard with the toggles. The leagues can just get the rules that these things have to be turned on for the matches, and then when you guys are playing your competitive matches on each other's servers, you will have the server the way you want. Your own servers can also easily be left that way for you guys to pub on (we had the 5150 server, and Cheaters Wayside and such for Tribes left like that, where the people from the top 10-20 (elites of the tribes) all pubbed together)

Barring that, and if the togglables absolutely won't work (which I don't believe, as the hard core gamer group server admins normally know how to safely modify a config file or two) then I would have to suggest the following compromises to some of what you want.

Give back the double tap kick, only have it only do knockdown. This solves the CTF FF/SO problem, as now you guys can knock down the FC and pummel him/her on the ground. At the same time, joe average doesn't have to worry too much, as the games ground controls give him a shot with panicked mashing of not being too punished. It also helps negate the problem casual gamers had gripes with of being kicked to death by a move they didn't understand (as it was on the higher end of that steep learning curve that the casual gamer rarely reaches) but was being used to ruin their ability to have fun.

Weaken drain a bit, and make heal work like it does in single player (where it progressively drains your force and ups your health) This should stop people from spamming it to make duels go on forever, and will also give the person chasing the healer a chance to finish the fight off before the heal is fully effective.

I agree on removing the force cost on the regular (the JO) specials.

Maneuverability needs to be given to the kata's and the DFA. Kata's, you should be able to move while doing them. I've seen them used well in duels and powerduels, but these were bouts of casual gamers, and being able to move (even if restricted somewhat) would up their value to the competitive side, while not harming, and in fact making the casual game more fun. For the DFA, I don't want the spin back, but at least reduce the pause where they're vulnerable to half, after which time they can roll to avoid an attack coming in at their exposed back.

Roll needs to be sped up as well, The thrust move that was added onto it, is nowhere near as effective as I think it was planned to be because of the fact that if your target starts backpedalling when you start rolling, they'll be safely out of range before the attack even goes off.

And as I already said, the saber needs a bit more damage, and the blocking system and hit detection need tweaking.

[div3rse.syn]
09-21-2003, 06:43 AM
ah, k.

I retract that part of my statement.

About Vegeta:
SuperNub just shat on your head. I need say nothing more.




Let me just explain one more thing before I go into why I'm actually making this post - The reason kicks are needed in CTF (or at least WERE needed in JKO ff/so ctf) is because it's simply too easy to run away as a FC, and there's basically no way to slow the FC down (a good one, anyways. See, here's the difference between JKO FCs, and JKA FCs - One needs skill to keep ahead of the defenders. The other...doesn't. Take a guess which is which), hence, you're left 2 options (3 if the FC sucks). The first option only works if he sucks - Pull/Push whore him and make absorb slow him down. Why does it only work if he sucks? Well - a good one will turn and push you giving him a few seconds to run from you while you're stunned. GG that idea. Second idea - bypass slowing him down and use a combination of rage and speed to run past the FC and nail him as he goes by. This got more and more popular as FCs got better at avoiding the kicks. Third option, and the absolute most popular: Kicking the FC so that their health would go down, they'd get slowed down, and they'd be forced to use Heal to counteract some of the kick/saber damage. Plus, Kicking would allow your teammates to swarm the FC and saber the crap out of him.

Now - why is Kick necessary if the other 2 options are around? Well, your first option is still there...but due to the nerfing of saber damage and the lack of kicks...even if you *slow* the FC down...he's still going to get away because you can't kill him. Add that this only works on bad cappers... Option 2 is also *technically* there, but you can't really do anything with rage/speed in this game...so you could try just raging...and not be able to do enough damage to kill him...you could try just speeding and your problem is the same.

SO, what are we left with? Any one who knows which way their base is can cap on just about anyone no matter what the difference in skills...awesome.

Anyways, I feel like it's not that KICK needs to be in this game - just a way to kill the capper, be it kick, upped saber damage, or SOMETHING implemented to make returning easier. It was hard enough to return against someone good (such as myself) in competitive games back in JKO. Watch the match between [div3rse] and [Fk] to see the 2 best clans at the end of JKO's life duke it out - the FCs on both teams RARELY died, even though all the returners playing were AWESOME at their job. It's simply too easy to run away and heal and too difficult to deal damage quickly. In JKO this was manageable because sabers did chunks of damage, moves didn't take force, and kicks could wear down their health so that a swing or two could kill them. My suggestion is that EITHER saber damage needs to go up, OR kick needs to be put back in. Preferably both, but with all these nublets crying about how much it sucked, or how much it wasn't Starwars like...I don't know. But I do have this to say - What's so "starwars-like" about hitting someone with a saber and them not dying? Answer me that...

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:45 AM
thanks for the civil contribution, DeliriumenD.

we (the competitive players) do all we can to keep from flaming, but its thrown at us and being used to people **** talking all the time, throw it right back at times.

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 06:49 AM
you forgot gg syn

DeliriumenD
09-21-2003, 06:49 AM
Meant to say this in the other post, but it's seperate enough.

The biggest problem facing the Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy games though, is the fact that the community is at odds with itself, which is sadly a side-effect of what the game is.

It is a Star Wars game, with all the bells and whistles of the Star Wars universe. You play a jedi, you kick ass with a lightsaber in the game. It is as much a Lightsaber/Jedi simulator as anything else, and as such, it's every Star Wars fans dream to play as you can either play like Han Solo and Chewie, or like Luke Skywalker depending on your mood.

On the other hand, it's a First Person Shooter with online team based capabilities and the obligatory CTF and such that goes with that. Whats more, the inclusion of the Star Wars universe gives a neat twist here and there to make it a unique game for Competitive play.

So, we now have the Star Wars fans going head to head with the First Person Shooter crowd (who are pretty much the most vocal and elitist bunch online..not to offend, but it seems to be the truth). The Star Wars fans want a game they can have fun playing in, where they can live their life and still have fun and kick some butt online with a lightsaber.

The first person shooter crowd wants a game where the hardcore gamers and competitive crowd is given what it needs to thrive. Where people have so much in the game they think nothing of spending all their freetime perfecting the best and quickest route from flag stand to flag stand so they can get back while exposing themselves to minimal danger.

Sadly, these two crowds both think (and are right in a sense) that their way is the right way. After all, it's a Star Wars game, so you should be able to kick ass in a Star Wars way that is accessible to nearly everyone, much like the movies are. But it's also a FPS which is a type of game that is quite competitive as well, and has some of the fiercest group rivalries I've ever seen online.

This gives the Developer a very tough choice, as no matter which way they turn, guess what, half the players (about) aren't going to be happy. So what do they do then? I hope they make a lot of togglables. Good servers with the toggles you like can be found, favorited, and visited often. Other servers can be ignored.

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 06:52 AM
Ooooo this is so cool. Keep it up, please. I'm trying to formulate a way to effectively harness all this energy. So far it can power one computer -- I'm posting on it now!!!!!!!!!!!!11


.....

[div3rse.syn]
09-21-2003, 06:55 AM
See ladies and gentlemen? It can be done.

DeliriumenD, you are a polite guy and I respect your opinions because of it.

I feel like you make a few good points, but a minor tweak - the double tap kick (just kick from here on) should be added back in, but I feel that making it knock down every time would make it MORE frustrating for people new to the game. That's the most frustrating part of the kick...the knockdown. Instead, I feel that it should SLOW the target down somewhat, doing SOME amount of physical damage (maybe not as much as in JKO, but not like 5 hp worth), and should knock down LESS frequently than in JKO. Sometimes I felt like I would get kicked 7 times, and 6 of those would result in knockdowns...that, is frustrating.


I do have to disagree with you on one point - There IS a valid way to compromise between competitive players and regular, casual gamers. JKO 1.04 was this compromise. It offered an amount of depth that would let people compete in it, but could still be able to let newbies run around and have fun.

[div3rse.syn]
09-21-2003, 06:57 AM
anyone else not know what to make of jaleddur?

Rumor
09-21-2003, 07:03 AM
most of us aren't that eliteist, we just don't like pretentious bastards who think that they know everything about everything, yet have no real clue as to the game and engine mechanics. two people who know the kicking system from jo better than anyone would be Break_dF and =X=IdiotSavant. Break was a ff/so dueler, and most likely the best. Idiot was one of the best d's in s/o ctf. many would rather face 5 other people when capping, than face just him.

most of the time we will stop and teach someone how to do something *if they ask and do not bitch about how its lame or gay. although when this happens day in and day out all the time for a year and a half, people do get irritated when it happens because it happens so much. it just gets annoying sometimes to have dozens of people begging you to train them and kissing your ass, then turn around and act big and bad if they get a lucky kill once in a while, or if they say no (if they respond).

DeliriumenD
09-21-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]

I do have to disagree with you on one point - There IS a valid way to compromise between competitive players and regular, casual gamers. JKO 1.04 was this compromise. It offered an amount of depth that would let people compete in it, but could still be able to let newbies run around and have fun.

My experiences with 1.04 were quite limited (embarassingly enough I lost my CD when I moved, couldn't find a NO CD thing that wasn't virused, and then got caught up in other games).

The double tap kick is what I meant btw with what I said. And I suppose what exactly the kick does is probably what'll take the most amount of debate over (the right amount of damage, whether it'll bypass shields, and the knockdown percentage).

As for being polite, I try to be. And with this game I think I know where both camps are coming from. I was never in a Top 10 clan in TRIBES, but the enDless did break into the top 20 and we were good (just there was about 16 other clans that were better :) ). So I know where the competitive people are coming from (especially as the transition from JKO to JKA from what I hear, is VERY similar to the transition from Tribes to Tribes 2 where we found most of our staples and things needed to get the game won were gone through various ways). On the other hand, as of late I've been too busy to play competitively so while I still consider myself a hard core gamer, it's more from the fact that I play everything, and not play one thing for years, so I guess it's more "casual gamer +" and I'm a huge Star Wars nut.

Modders can fix the problems with competitve play, and I'm sure some will try. But even still, the fact that cappers can live indefinately with proper use of heal/absorb/speed is a fairly critical game issue in my opinion, and a way to stop it in Saber Only Full Force games needs to be added.

One of the great things about Capture the Ysalamari was that once you had that lizard, well, you'd better hope you had some teammates near by because you weren't going anywhere fast.

Heck, I bet a lot of competitve players would settle for something as simple as having the flag on you limits you to Force Speed 1. You're still going faster than the people who dind't buy it, but the Chasers can catch you easier if you aren't able to use your head. Maybe just 1 level less than you bought (so if you bought Speed 3, you'd be at 2 while holding the flag)

There are tons of solutions to the problem, the trick is finding one..then getting it implemented. Flaming does nothing but help ruin getting the help needed.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 07:11 AM
jk2 - > ja is like re-releasing the original tribes with some graphical upgrades and a couple differen't guns, but taking out jetpacks and disc launchers. thats the closest analogy i can think of at the moment.

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]
anyone else not know what to make of jaleddur?

But did you get a moment of humor from it?

That would be my point. :D

I mean, this thread is already so absurd, whats a little more?

[div3rse.syn]
09-21-2003, 07:42 AM
not really...I was just puzzled as to why you would post something so ridiculous

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 07:44 AM
Smile. :D


Sorry, I better sleep before I *really* embarrass myself. Yeah, yeah, too late, I know, whatever.

[div3rse.syn]
09-21-2003, 08:04 AM
no harm done ;)

AxVegetA
09-21-2003, 08:27 AM
Fuc-king cowards.
Syn, you are a real faggot. :animelol:
You, rumor and the other guy.

Do you all really feel that good posting your crapy ideas that arent that diferent from the rest. :tsk:

The same shat all over again, JA needs to be fixed, a patche must be realeased, MP sux, we ctf competitive players (rofl), all that over and over.
Post after post talking crap. :disaprove

I am sick of sisy losers like you all (rumor, diverse, and all those pussy who suported them).
I am going to sleep. :vamp1:

By the way which version of JO are you playing now, or you played (if you dont play it anymore)?
Cause i havent heard in my life a clan called diverse.

Astrotoy7
09-21-2003, 08:46 AM
oh man. how can there be peace on this world if gaming geeks can't get along. Lucky those sabers dont work eh ?!


MTFBWYA

razorace
09-21-2003, 08:55 AM
So does boosting the saber damage not solve the problem by itself?

Comm539
09-21-2003, 08:56 AM
Good Flame. Completely unconstructive and no counter arguements.
btw, you really must be new to ctf if you haven't heard of diverse.

The competetive community (of which s/o ctf was and still is the biggest, and is the only active community left in JO) has asked for a toggleable kick patch. Its very well saying 'casual gamers' don't want it (its toggleable, so they won't have it) but its the competetive communi9ty that keeps the game active 6-7 months after release. Dark Wader won't be too chuffed after spending $30 in 6 months time when only a few 'casual gamers' are on a server at a time.

JA mp needs a collision fix and a combo restriction I would say, but apart from that its fine.
s/o ctf needs a way to stop / slow the fc. No matter how well you learn the new saber swings, no matter how powerful they are, they're all completely pointless in you can't stop the fc. JA has no ways of doing this.

Jah Warrior
09-21-2003, 10:32 AM
well,

thos that say sabers dont do enough damage.... lol do a downward hack in red slash on the back of someone's head some time.:rolleyes:

Drain... probably is an opportunity for lameness, however it would be better if it could only be used when you have 50 force or more... no problem there. (personally i think it should only drain 50% of the victims force)

Roll stab... lol, enter the new 1.02 DFA/ 1.03 backstab. I reckon 50 force for this move after all it's a one hit kill 90% of the time.

BTW:- make yellow overhead useful please, it's nigh on impossible to land a hit with it, no matter where the opponent is.

Note:-
I play duel so these comments are irrelevant to FFA CTF or any of teh other "chaos" gamemodes.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 10:38 AM
AxVegeta:

Can it. No more flames from you or you'll end up on Matt Windu's ignore list. And everybody shares his ignore list.

Rumor:

Harsh language isn't going to get your point across either - I'd advise you to stop right now before Kurgan comes in, sees this mess of a thread and locks it.

And all you people who are saying "Raven did a good job this, Raven is this and that, blah blah blah!" Open your eyes. This games main focus is holding down Attack1 and Alt attack.

That's bullsh*t. The exact same could be said about JO the first few weeks it came out. And guess what - the exact same was said about JO.

No combos, specials with force

So because you can't think of any, must of course mean there are none whatsoever?

how are you going to kill your opponent (providing that you want to and aren't an rpger) besides whailing your saber around like an idiot.

Yeah, it's the rpg'ers fault, all of this. And I'm sick and tired of hearing this.

FYI, JA has more moves than JO, not less. Surely such a skilled person as you don't need to resort to using the idiotic, useless saber.

Stop sucking up to Raven

Good point. Now please remove your mouth from each other's crotch each time you've made a reply. I see far too many pointless "I agree completely, shaft" posts.

And I'm not trying to bash Raven

Sure you aren't. And we're not making fun of each other in here at all.

but this game shouldn't be called an FPS, because competition in this game (with players who know what they're doing and dont blindly walk in katas) is just not going to work.

Fine, there's no competition at all in this game, it can't be salvaged and most of you have made your point days ago. Please leave so we won't have to deal with your threads. Do we agree?

I don't care if s/o CTF isn't my game, I'm here to keep you from ripping throats out, and make sure you at least use some common sense when writing posts.

What's new to learn?

You could start by playing the game instead of spending all your time here, whining about it. I don't think I've ever seen such a defeatist attitude ever.

Rad Blackrose
09-21-2003, 11:46 AM
thos that say sabers dont do enough damage.... lol do a downward hack in red slash on the back of someone's head some time.

Actually, since damage is not consistent across game modes, you can't get away with that statement. And considering the fact that I HAVE done that and it took a 3 hit combo to kill a person in standard FFA, that holds no water Watson.

Drain... probably is an opportunity for lameness, however it would be better if it could only be used when you have 50 force or more... no problem there. (personally i think it should only drain 50% of the victims force)

Or reduce the force:hp conversion ratio even further, like what happened between 1.03 and 1.04.

EDIT: Whoops, cut the post short... That's what I get for sticking with a girl until 7 in the morning.


Roll stab... lol, enter the new 1.02 DFA/ 1.03 backstab. I reckon 50 force for this move after all it's a one hit kill 90% of the time.

Sorry, the Dual Saber Kata with high force regen factors is taking the crown right now.

BTW:- make yellow overhead useful please, it's nigh on impossible to land a hit with it, no matter where the opponent is.

Now THERE'S a statement I agree with.

I see far too many pointless "I agree completely, shaft" posts.

Not our fault he makes things seem so obvious.

Jah Warrior
09-21-2003, 12:01 PM
Actually, since damage is not consistent across game modes, you can't get away with that statement. And considering the fact that I HAVE done that and it took a 3 hit combo to kill a person in standard FFA, that holds no water Watson.

read the note at the bottom of my above post... before getting on your high horse son.


Or reduce the force:hp conversion ratio even further, like what happened between 1.03 and 1.04.
good idea, maybe make its range smaller too.

Sorry, the Dual Saber Kata with high force regen factors is taking the crown right now.

you fall for that? LOL. heres a tip.... stand back and drop a downward hack on their head as the move finishes ;) Besides it takes 50 force (and rightly so!)

Rad Blackrose
09-21-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
you fall for that? LOL. heres a tip.... stand back and drop a downward hack on their head as the move finishes ;) Besides it takes 50 force (and rightly so!)

First of all, high force regen negates the 50 force cost. Second, its nigh unavoidable for those who are already engaged in FFA with 3+ people only to have one walk right in the center, nail mouse1+mouse2, and watch the carnage ensue.

Oh, and BTW, the roll stab works nicely against those buggers as well. ;)

EDIT: Whoops, we're on a different page, sorry mate!

And I messed up on my prior post, drain force:hp ratio was reduced 1.02 - 1.03

C'jais
09-21-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
First of all, high force regen negates the 50 force cost. Second, its nigh unavoidable for those who are already engaged in FFA with 3+ people only to have one walk right in the center, nail mouse1+mouse2, and watch the carnage ensue.

I'm getting flashbacks to the whole DFA/Backstab issue.

As the move is pretty immobile, I've only myself to blame if I get killed by it.

BTW Jah: Is hermes up? The IP doesn't seem to work :(

Jah Warrior
09-21-2003, 12:16 PM
It's gonna be up later today, gotta send some mails n stuff which will cause lag right now :( better to hold off till the conn. is free'd up. btw did i give you the private pass?

Comm539
09-21-2003, 12:28 PM
You seem to be missing the point again.
There can be a zillion new saber swings, but the issue is that in s/o ctf, you need to stop the flag carrier from running off before any moves can be implemented.

Rage dfa caught him up and was a 1 hit kill <its gone>
kicks slowed and even grounded him <its gone>
ptk was a long range attack <its gone>
strafing to catch up <its gone>
rolling to catch up <its gone>
Pull whorage <repowers the fc to speed off and leaves you ith no force>

You all discredit these things as 'spamming' and 'un-skillful'. Well we don't care, they were ways that worked.

Now here's the big question that none of you people against the reimplementation of kicks etc can answer:

How do you stop an fc, in order to kill him? (with kata's or w/e). Give a workable answer and the complaining for a patch will cease. But I guarantee, you have no answer.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Rage dfa caught him up and was a 1 hit kill <its gone>

No, it still works.

kicks slowed and even grounded him <its gone>

Still works as well. Keyword: Saberstaff.

Give a workable answer and the complaining for a patch will cease. But I guarantee, you have no answer.

Ok, what if in 2 weeks time, you've worked out this problem, will you then come back and apologize because you didn't think there were any solution to this, when in fact, there were?

Comm539
09-21-2003, 12:41 PM
You obviously aren't familiar with ctf strategies, so I don't see how you can discredit them if you don't know why they're there.

Rage = rage and speed (other wise, just rage isn't even as fast as level 3 speed and won't catch an fc). Since this takes 100 force, and dfa needs 25 force each, it is gone.

Saber staff kick is impractical and inneffective. You can't alt fire whilst moving, there fore you need to somehow overtake the fc, stop and then try to kick before the fc whizzes over your head.

If there are anyother solutions I find I will stand here and sing. The fact is, this isn't some tatty pulled together arguement. The entire s/o ctf community is saying the same. We know what strategies work and what doesn't work. No one has found any new way to stop someone who doesn';t want to be stopped, Raven hasn't ever announced a new way to stop someone who doesn't want to be stopped and all of the old ways have been removed.

Still waiting for a workable answer.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
You obviously aren't familiar with ctf strategies, so I don't see how you can discredit them if you don't know why they're there.

No, I'm not - but where did I "discredit" them?

Rage = rage and speed (other wise, just rage isn't even as fast as level 3 speed and won't catch an fc). Since this takes 100 force, and dfa needs 25 force each, it is gone.

Makes sense, yes, and I see your point.

Still, when you say "rage DFA", I assume you do mean rage combined with DFA.

Saber staff kick is impractical and inneffective. You can't alt fire whilst moving,

You can: jump-kick.

SaTsuJiN
09-21-2003, 01:07 PM
Well, I was just bs'ing with Lv 3 drain on a bot before and my force meter was at 100, I hit him with drain and only got like 30 hp back for the entire duration. Maybe your referring the 'weak sabers' towards single sabers because twin and staff have good range and high power. you probably cant whore drain against a saber staff, those folks are everywhere *only uses single*

I do agree about your other problems with the multiplayer though

I think that if Dark force can have Rage, then Light force should be able to combine absorb and protect like in SP to counter it :P
and sp jedi's are cheap with thier single and twin saber kicking lol. I wanna kick with those! XD

Comm539
09-21-2003, 01:10 PM
Saber staff kicks require you to stop, jump and then alt attack. You firstly need to get ahead of the fc (he has speed and is going the same spped as you, pull whoring only recharges him to speed off again), and secondly, by the time you stopped to alt fire kick, he has jumped over you, past you, or just dodged the kick.

Sorry, rage dfa is sorta a ctf term and is assumed you rage with speed. I meant raging with speed.


Originally posted by C'jais
You could start by playing the game instead of spending all your time here, whining about it. I don't think I've ever seen such a defeatist attitude ever. [/B]


You say play the game, but we can't. There is no longer any way (new or old) to stop an fc who doesn't want to be stopped.
I know your just trying to suggest other ways to stoip an fc, but they've all been discredited before. There are No new or old ways to stop an fc, which is why every s/o ctf game only finishes with the fc leaving.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Saber staff kicks require you to stop, jump and then alt attack.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I thought the jump kick allowed you to kick while in the air (and thus moving)?

Probably already tried, but would it be possible to turn on both rage and speed (thus moving faster than the FC), run up to him and give him a few whacks with the strong stance?

Comm539
09-21-2003, 01:21 PM
You would need to be level or in front of the fc to jump kick (but he's going the same speed as you). Then you have to stop, before pressing alt and jump. In this time, the fc can whiz past, or since theres no method to pull him towards you, the jump kick misses or he evades it.
It obviously requires a way for you to catch up and overtake the fc in the first place.

Although speed raging and waving a saber about may work on a 'less able' (one without a clue) fc, it certainly won't work in a competetive match.
You have to imagine all the things that were in JO were tried and tested. The things that have been taken out worked, the things that are left didn't work in JO and won't work now. You have to think 'is it new'. If the answer is no, then it won't be affective (already been tried and failed. If it is new, then it might work. But the thing is, there are no new ways.

SuperNub
09-21-2003, 01:23 PM
Dude, where to start, if you where touched by my words i am sorry (i am not really), i didnt said all that for nothing, i think i made my point in my last post.

My gramar is because i speak spanish.

I am not dork, but you sure are, and i dont think forums are for dorks, but for people who like games, specially a game i ve been wanted for a long time. IS that wrong?

About my ego, rofl, i am the one who smashes YOU.

And whats the problem with my insults, besides the fact it bothered you, hahaha (what an idiot).

Insecurities? lol
Kiddo?

My insults should be fired upon myself? cant you be anymore original? kiddo?
-stupid
-you are the stupid

And i wasnt talking to you in first place, you piece of ****, you dont worth it.
All i know from you is that you are named supernub.

Next time if you feel emotionally touched about that, reply to your wall.

I'd try to reply to that but your entire post is as fallible as Kobe's rape defense.

I am not dork? ..what will you say next, someone set us up the bomb?

www.dictionary.com

You might learn something, give it a shot Richard Ramirez love child.

Jah Warrior
09-21-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by DeliriumenD
Meant to say this in the other post, but it's seperate enough.

The biggest problem facing the Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy games though, is the fact that the community is at odds with itself, which is sadly a side-effect of what the game is.

It is a Star Wars game, with all the bells and whistles of the Star Wars universe. You play a jedi, you kick ass with a lightsaber in the game. It is as much a Lightsaber/Jedi simulator as anything else, and as such, it's every Star Wars fans dream to play as you can either play like Han Solo and Chewie, or like Luke Skywalker depending on your mood.

On the other hand, it's a First Person Shooter with online team based capabilities and the obligatory CTF and such that goes with that. Whats more, the inclusion of the Star Wars universe gives a neat twist here and there to make it a unique game for Competitive play.

So, we now have the Star Wars fans going head to head with the First Person Shooter crowd (who are pretty much the most vocal and elitist bunch online..not to offend, but it seems to be the truth). The Star Wars fans want a game they can have fun playing in, where they can live their life and still have fun and kick some butt online with a lightsaber.

The first person shooter crowd wants a game where the hardcore gamers and competitive crowd is given what it needs to thrive. Where people have so much in the game they think nothing of spending all their freetime perfecting the best and quickest route from flag stand to flag stand so they can get back while exposing themselves to minimal danger.

Sadly, these two crowds both think (and are right in a sense) that their way is the right way. After all, it's a Star Wars game, so you should be able to kick ass in a Star Wars way that is accessible to nearly everyone, much like the movies are. But it's also a FPS which is a type of game that is quite competitive as well, and has some of the fiercest group rivalries I've ever seen online.

This gives the Developer a very tough choice, as no matter which way they turn, guess what, half the players (about) aren't going to be happy. So what do they do then? I hope they make a lot of togglables. Good servers with the toggles you like can be found, favorited, and visited often. Other servers can be ignored.


NOw that is a great post!!! well said there mate :)

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 02:37 PM
That's bullsh*t. The exact same could be said about JO the first few weeks it came out. And guess what - the exact same was said about JO.

JO had some depth. Especially the CTF aspect. You could kick, grip kick, pull throw kick, rage dfa, rage kick (with energize) there were a number of possibilities. That was all removed and now what is there? A kata for every stance (useless unless you're lucky or playing a total newbie) a roll/attack move that is very accurate if your opponent is standing still. And a jump/attack combo for dual/two-handed sabers that is actually not that bad in a big crowd but not when facing a speeding FC.

So because you can't think of any, must of course mean there are none whatsoever?

Yes, that's what I meant. [/sarcasm] Stop assuming what I meant in my posts please. I mean by that the only new combos aren't effective when coming to kill a speeding, aborsbing FC with an energizer. Now they may be extremely effective in FFA or TFFA, but not in CTF, and remember, that is what this thread is talking about.

Yeah, it's the rpg'ers fault, all of this. And I'm sick and tired of hearing this.

FYI, JA has more moves than JO, not less. Surely such a skilled person as you don't need to resort to using the idiotic, useless saber.

No, it's not the RPGers fault, reread my post. I said "Providing your not an RPGer". Did I bash them in that sentence? Did I blame it on them. No. Again, stop assuming.

JA has more moves in JO, yes, great moves, for FFA. We are talking about S/O CTF and FF Duel, which have been shat on in the competition level. At its current state, in JA, two teams who know what they're doing will end in a stalemate everytime unless one team gets lucky. We're here to discuss how to fix those two gametypes, not FFA.

Good point. Now please remove your mouth from each other's crotch each time you've made a reply. I see far too many pointless "I agree completely, shaft" posts.

I'm sorry if he is one of the only people on this forum that make sense in all of his posts. He, on the other hand, unlike most of the flamers in this thread, is trying to resolve this so S/O CTF can become competetive again, and FFA can stay the way it is.

Sure you aren't. And we're not making fun of each other in here at all.

We aren't all making fun of each other in here, and certainly I'm not. There are those of us from the CTF Competetive community and the Casual Gamer community trying to discuss how we can balance JA like JO was balanced so that it works out for everyone. Then there are a few people who don't even discuss the matter at hand and just flame the rest of us saying "No Kicks Suck!!" or "Wewt kicks rule you newbies better get rdy!!11" Maybe you should be quoting their posts.

Fine, there's no competition at all in this game, it can't be salvaged and most of you have made your point days ago. Please leave so we won't have to deal with your threads. Do we agree?

Don't deal with our threads. We're fine. And I didn't mean it will NEVER happen (again, assuming) I meant that as it is the competition won't work. We are here, again, to see if we can get a patch that will balance out the Competition gameplay with the Casual Game gameplay like it was in JO. And, we do not agree.

I don't care if s/o CTF isn't my game, I'm here to keep you from ripping throats out, and make sure you at least use some common sense when writing posts.

Those of us who aren't ripping each others throats are trying to make a discussion. Maybe try talking some sense into people like AxVegetA. People who don't even know what a S/O CTF game is like who come in here saying he would 'own' us at it. Let's try to keep this civil, people.

You could start by playing the game instead of spending all your time here, whining about it. I don't think I've ever seen such a defeatist attitude ever.

Oh yes, because again (assuming), I spend all my time whining in this forum and saying "Raven, raven, patch me!!11" I actually played that game a lot last night on S/O CTF (and seige when I got bored) trying to figure out another way to kill a speeding, absorbing FC with an energizer. And I came up with none. What's new to learn? I learned it all last night. Katas, Jump/Attack moves, roll-attack, goofy roll, concussion rifle, and a strafe jump that takes getting used to. That's about it. Damn that was long.

Comm539
09-21-2003, 03:00 PM
Someone screamed "Please remove the things that own me!!!111" and raven did it. If the competetive community isn't salvaged, then this game will die. By your own definition, your 'casual gamers.' This means you play no and then. So if the competetive community dies, theres noone to play but a handful of 'casual gamers' who happened to be on at the same time as you.

No one and I mean no one who says 'kicks lame', 'kicks are noobish' has come up with any way in JA to stop an fc who doesn't want to to be stopped. No one. Instead of flaming and quoting your inablilities to avoid kicks, come up with a way to stop an fc who doesn't want to stop. Then and only then will we stop bothering you.

Bladedog
09-21-2003, 03:10 PM
My first comment to make is that I am fairly new at MP having been playing JO MP for only about 5 weeks, but I stumbled into a S/O CTF game on the first day and I have stuck with it.

I'd be the first to comment that I am the kind of newbie player you are taking about getting caught with the flag in JA but having played the demo even I know enough not to stand still and get hit by a Kata.

I have yet to even buy JA, I intended to buy it today but having read this post I am not going to bother until a fix containing the main points raised is created. You may think "no great loss, see ya l8r noob" or whatever but if enough people are put off playing due to imbalances like the ones commented on (actually I'd say that a lack of moves to kill a FC in CTF is more like a bug than an imbalance but there you go) then the community will shrink quicker than my todger in a cold shower.

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 04:00 PM
Blade, thanks for the comments, but you should buy it. It still isn't ALL that bad of a game besides the imbalance. Guns CTF is fun as hell and so is seige. I don't play much FFA because of the "Honor Code" but I'm sure that's sort of fun in its own sick way. Don't let these imbalances ruin it for ya.

Prime
09-21-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Saber staff kicks require you to stop, jump and then alt attack. You firstly need to get ahead of the fc (he has speed and is going the same spped as you, pull whoring only recharges him to speed off again), and secondly, by the time you stopped to alt fire kick, he has jumped over you, past you, or just dodged the kick.
This is incorrect. You can certainly do staff kicks on the move without stopping, and if you want you can do it with speed and rage on. Plus there are a variety of kicks at your disposal, even kicking backwards. Plus you do not need to double tap jump, it is just one button, alt fire, making it even easier to do. It is also pretty consistent in causing knockdowns, especially when you are moving. I played around a bit, and doing it with speed on sends them flying! :)

You can try this out yourself, but here is a small demo (http://torch.cs.dal.ca/~mroger/downloads/kicks.dm_25) of kicks on the move and also doing some with speed on. I'm not sure why this is worse than the old flip kick.

Comm539
09-21-2003, 04:17 PM
You need to catch up / overtake to the fc (he's going at the same spped as you)

There is no 'control' over the kick. It's easily evading by running evasively.

The fc can just jump over your kick.

Although it seems a good method, it might work on a lesser able fc (as does raging and spamming blue stance in his back), but not in a clan match.

noide
09-21-2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by AxVegetA

By the way which version of JO are you playing now, or you played (if you dont play it anymore)?
Cause i havent heard in my life a clan called diverse.

if you havent heard of div3rse than i suppose you never played in good servers with good jo players. div3rse has been around as one of the best s/o clans since the beginning of 03 in 03 s/o duel, ctf, ffa and 1.04 s/o ctf.

thelastaod
09-21-2003, 06:44 PM
lets just all hope =X=mod 2.0 fixes alot of the things raven refuses to fix because all they want is a pretty looking game that appeals to "PRESS ATTACK1!!! DAMN I LOST" gamers. RAVEN you could save the modders alot of time by just releasing a patch, say something that allows g_debugmelee 1 to work in mp

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:50 PM
alt fire kick is NOT effective unless they are utterly dumb and have no clue as to how to use the movement keys.

g//plaZma
09-21-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by thelastaod
lets just all hope =X=mod 2.0 fixes alot of the things raven refuses to fix because all they want is a pretty looking game that appeals to "PRESS ATTACK1!!! DAMN I LOST" gamers. RAVEN you could save the modders alot of time by just releasing a patch, say something that allows g_debugmelee 1 to work in mp

g_debugmelee 1 does work in mp but all it does is allow you to use saberstaff kicks with fists.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 07:13 PM
and it lets you stick to walls forever, which is uber cool

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 07:15 PM
Well.... a few suggestions have been given, albeit weak suggestions. It's becoming more and more clear that a kick, along with changes that allow the competitive games to actually be 'competitive' instead of 'stalemated' is necessary.

Saber Staff kicking is the most interesting suggestion, because instead of proving a good idea, it actually demostrates what's wrong with JA.

Suppose that the saber staff kick was the solution (even though we all know it very well isn't). That should actually put some alarms in your head, not bring signs of relief and comfort! Imagine if the solution to S/O CTF was that everyone had to carry a Saber Staff in order to compete at high levels. You know as well as I do that it would be a very crappy solution indeed. In fact, I will say right now, if Saber Staff were the solution to the S/O problems, then complaints about the game type are STILL WARRANTED.

The opposers to this argument know VERY WELL that if their favorite game type were also plagued with a solution like "use the saber staff" to be successful, they would also start threads very similar to this one, asking Raven to change things.

My suggestion still stands, along with Comm, etc.

Togglable game types. Competitive versus Casual. Of course, I guess my idea is slightly different, I would also ask for a return to 1.02 damage settings, so that we'd have the kicks, and essentially 'start over', but I'm sure most people are just too comfortable with 1.04 or less.

Anyway, the beauty of it would be that the one half of the community has a STANDARDIZED game with all the bells and whistles, while the other half, the ones that are STILL coming here trying to lambast the S/O CTF players, can keep the JA that they are certain is quite functional enough to play well.

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 07:50 PM
Wow leave for a day to get liquored up and look at all the flames.

:(


Let's try to remain a little civil here guys, calling people "fags" and such is not going to accomplish anything.

and this AXvegeta guy, just ignore him, he's jus a loud mouth, no name random noob trolling to try and get a rise out of people.




I have a very good idea to prove our (the competitive players) point to the masses.


Let’s do a match.

But not just any match.


Let's get, say 8 people on the side of the "learn and adapt" debate and have them face only 5 members of a team of "elites".

Be it [div3rse], FK, a mixed team, whoever.

This match is not to embarrass anyone or prove how much we "have adapted" and can own people, it's to prove to you guys just how futile it is to play against serious skilled players with all of this nerfing.

The reason I say give your side almost double the # of players is to even drive the point home even further that it has become utterly impossible to accomplish the game objectives (even when you have a massive player base advantage) if you are playing anyone who knows what they are doing.


Also as a side note to Jah and Cjas, I know both of you guys are No Force duel players and respect that, but the thing you guys have to keep in mind is, NF sabers and Full Force saber combat (any game type) have almost nothing in common in terms of strategy and game play.

Both take a tremendous amount of skill and practice to master but people need to keep in mind that what is being discussed is the arena of Full Force Saber only combat, so a lot of things that may apply to the world of NF dueling are simply not viable here due to the drastic differences in game type strategy/play.

kazesan
09-21-2003, 09:34 PM
Well I've come to the conclusion that the only balanced gametypes in JA are FFA and Siege. All the others have lots of problems like saber damage blocking ect. ect.

I actually had fun playing FFA today. I got kills with both the saber and guns. I didn't complain when I got blown up or when I got chat killed or pushed off a ledge.

In fact I was quite happy seeing as how I was able to come in 1st one match. The saber fighting was good aswell. I was able to beat staff and dual wielders with single yellow and red stances. I also was able to hack down a few gunners after pulling their guns.

FFA is a great gametype and the most balanced IMO. I think the single saber damage still needs to be upped like 15 points a swing for yellow though. Other than that the saber fights I had in FFA were much more enjoyable than those in duels when yellow stance does 7 damage a swing.

Duel needs balanced, CTF needs fixed for SO/FF people although I think FF guns/sabers is pretty good. Siege is a very fun game although it needs more vehicles and maps. (hopefully starfighters)

The MP community is just getting started though and I hope that Raven makes a few changes. Giving yellow and blue decent damage and adding kick back in so all the MP complaint threads can be deleted. I don't want to look for mappers and modders to make this game enjoyable for everyone. I think it is well within Raven's boundries to only need one patch. Hopefully they also release new map packs periodically. I guess we just have to wait and see what happens.

shukrallah
09-21-2003, 09:40 PM
I didnt read all of it, but i think if it was like JA SP (ive only played the demo) it would be perfect :cool:

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by kazesan
Well I've come to the conclusion that the only balanced gametypes in JA are FFA and Siege. All the others have lots of problems like saber damage blocking ect. ect.

I actually had fun playing FFA today. I got kills with both the saber and guns. I didn't complain when I got blown up or when I got chat killed or pushed off a ledge.

In fact I was quite happy seeing as how I was able to come in 1st one match. The saber fighting was good aswell. I was able to beat staff and dual wielders with single yellow and red stances. I also was able to hack down a few gunners after pulling their guns.

FFA is a great gametype and the most balanced IMO. I think the single saber damage still needs to be upped like 15 points a swing for yellow though. Other than that the saber fights I had in FFA were much more enjoyable than those in duels when yellow stance does 7 damage a swing.

Duel needs balanced, CTF needs fixed for SO/FF people although I think FF guns/sabers is pretty good. Siege is a very fun game although it needs more vehicles and maps. (hopefully starfighters)

The MP community is just getting started though and I hope that Raven makes a few changes. Giving yellow and blue decent damage and adding kick back in so all the MP complaint threads can be deleted. I don't want to look for mappers and modders to make this game enjoyable for everyone. I think it is well within Raven's boundries to only need one patch. Hopefully they also release new map packs periodically. I guess we just have to wait and see what happens.

Yes, the gun/saber balance is actually pretty good in an all weapon FFA.

And as I have stated before I love the giant wide open maps.

The problem starts when you disable guns and you now have healing powers 3 times more powerful than the sabers..

Not to mention the other force powers (and combos now being totally gone) restricted by some sort of absurd newly implemented nerf.


:mad:

Prime
09-21-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
You need to catch up / overtake to the fc (he's going at the same spped as you) This issue isn't dependent on flipkick, is it? I mean, you have to catch the FC to kick him anyway, right? I don't see how kick solves this problem.

Originally posted by Comm539
There is no 'control' over the kick. It's easily evading by running evasively. Why is there no control? You can kick in more directions than flipkick, and you can kick on command, at any point in you jump. Flipkick is evadable as well, is it not?

Originally posted by Comm539
The fc can just jump over your kick. Why would they be able to jump over the staff kick? You can kick with the saberstaff at any point of the jump. You can be at the peak of your jump and kick. Isn't this the same as flipkick? I mean, with both forms of kick you can jump up to the FC (if he is in the air) and kick him, and both will knock him on the ground.

Originally posted by Comm539
Although it seems a good method, it might work on a lesser able fc (as does raging and spamming blue stance in his back), but not in a clan match. I guess I am wondering what flipkick provides that the staff kick does not?

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Imagine if the solution to S/O CTF was that everyone had to carry a Saber Staff in order to compete at high levels. You know as well as I do that it would be a very crappy solution indeed. But why would it be crappy to need the saberstaff to compete at high levels? From what I have read, competative players don't care what the method is to be successful, they will use whatever is the most effective. If the saberstaff (and its kicks) would be the best weapon, why would competative players care? They aren't playing JA for the variety of moves, they are playing to use the most effective thing, or group of things, over and over to get the win. I'm just wondering why this matters to competative players.

I'm not trying to be difficult here guys. I'm just trying to see for myself where the holes really are. :)

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 10:11 PM
that's a difficult question prime. the answer, I feel, is this.

In previous dueling, where kick existed, kick was just another move. I didn't need the blue saber or the red saber to do the trick. I wasn't stuck with a bunch of moves that I probably coudln't even use well. I had all three stances, and a kick that was reliable.

Having the saber staff become the solution is just downright.... wrong. That would mean that everyone is stuck with one set of moves to use. To add to that, the kick is not nearly as effective as the old kick. So now, the elite players aren't just going to use whatever they have to win, they're going to be using something that will probably jsut give them more headaches.

While the old kick was considered spammy or whored, at the same time, it still allowed for variety. It did not hinder what people could do. If you liked blue stance, yellow stance, etc., you could still use it, even though the results may have varied.

Saber staff leaves you with little option to do whatever. It wouldn't be right... everyone else would have a diverse gametype, but the S/O crew would be stuck with... Darth Maul CTF. It would be like receiving an insulting downgrade from Raven. They decided that you need kicks that aren't really that good at stopping runners, and that you all need to impersonate Darth Maul to succeed? That would be just mean.

The S/O CTF needs a solution that doesn't involved limiting the game to ONE saber style. Even JO had three.

Master_Payne
09-21-2003, 10:18 PM
The problem is that a lot of people wanted JA to be like JO, not the game, they don't want to go back to JO, they want patch JA untill match JO gameplay.

I play Full Force Weapons CTF, but that doesnt means I never has played Saber Only.

A lot of people says they are competitive players and are ruined... :S whats that?, I'm a competitive player and I accept the changes and the challenge, I don't need kick to survive.

The FC is still killable(?) just now need differents tactics and yes, the s/o games usually ends 1 - 0 or 2 - 1.

Now trying to help these people try the following (this time I will not recommend weapons)

If has speed pull him (to slow him down a bit) if has absorb saberthow, barricades a staff kick from someone in the front. if turns protect grip, if has healers and/or energizers kill them first.
If the FC is acompanied(?) by two "bodyguards" (not healers/energizers) stay waiting to loose or send a massive group after them.

these aren't the best ways to deal but they work (not always but work). my personal recomandation is to play, search new tactics instead of ask for a patch in less than a week from release.

games evolve. humans do the same.

this is a new game don't try to portait your previous skill, make new ones.

I'm sorry but this is the more I can do for you, we will never see on a aserver because we have obiously(?) our differences, this is also my last post in any "ctf is ruined" topic. I hope you resolve your problem.

Best of Luck for all of U finding a new way to deal with a FC on JA CTF s/o!

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 10:18 PM
Prime to understanding kicking in Jedi Outcast you need to understand this:

It goes a hell of a lot deeper than the double tap to cause 20 hp of damage or a knock down when playing in competitive communities.

The best kick user in the history of Jedi Outcast was a guy from =X= named Idiot Savant.

He could do things with those double tap kicks that even to this day make the best of the best stand there with open mouths in amazement.

Take a map like ctf_ns_streets.


He would chase a flag carrier down who was moving at 90 miles per hour with level 3 speed and protected from pulls by absorb, swoop down from almost out of no where and land on a two inch section of a ledge just at the exact moment the flag carrier passed it, and then precisely kick and angle his shot to score a knock back in the opposite direction to knock the guy off for a pit death and return his flag.

All executed with almost surgical precision that even many elite players could not match.

The kicks and how they were used on competition level play is nothing like how they are used by average players on public servers.

For us they are a very complex and precise tool we used in multiple situations to get the job done.

There are even certain kick methods the average players don't even know about.

Angled velocity kicks are one of those methods.

Do you know ho to rush a person head on and then do kick directly face to face in a straight line but send the guy off in a 90 degree angle to his doom (like off a ledge) with out ever changing your player direction to angle the impact point?


The thing you have to understand prime is in CTF a capper is not going to fight you nor is he ever going to put himself at risk.

And when you factor in that he can jump 100 feet up into the air and run at 90 mph, you are going to have to stop/obstruct and pound on him or kill him with an instant blow.

Now having every single saber blow (with higher damage scale cvar) be a one hit kill is a bad idea because it becomes a game of “bump and die”.

Remember those old 80’s arcade games where if you even touched any monster you instantly died?

That gets very annoying to say the least.

It also eliminates strategy because all you have to do is go RAAGGGGHHHH and flail randomly and you are guaranteed instant kills on anything you touch, aimed shots or not make no difference.

Where kicks are a major factor in ff/so ctf can be seen on maps like the new coruscant streets (or w/e it is called).

a capper has to watch his ass because of all those ledges and such when he makes a run for the flag or is on his way back.

You got a guy guarding a bridge mid way and even with absorb, if you try to leap over him he will do an offensive push/pull to stun you just as you leap, run in and kick you off in a single shot (while you are in the recovery animation) to your doom and return his flag.

Now with kicks gone, you run, leap, he stuns you, and... as he trys a Kata, you walk around him, stop, call him a moron and keep on trucking.

HFB_Muerte
09-21-2003, 10:20 PM
g_saberDamageScale 10

Problem solved. IF the FC so much as gets touched by a saber he's dead.

JaredSyn
09-21-2003, 10:28 PM
Sup.Where to start?Absolutely horrid gameplay....I'll start there.

First off I feel like I'm moving in slow motion.What the heck is up with that?To many complaints from n00bs that couldn't keep up in Outcast?

Next up is that totally useless wall run animation that basically just sux ...period.

The absence of kick is a two fold affair...while it was certainly abused, it was also an extremely useful tool.Why not just remove the damage component from it and leave it in?Scared?

Finally there is the heavy stance DFA(or whatever its called) being completely remapped.Why in hell did that have to be changed?It was perfect the way it was...difficult to master but extremely effective when mastered.Hmmm maybe my 2hit insta-kill move(backflipkick to heavy DFA) scared you a bit.


JaredSyn (AKA SnakeEyes or ///Akuma)


;)

CanadianSurfer
09-21-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!




I have a very good idea to prove our (the competitive players) point to the masses.


Let’s do a match.

But not just any match.


Let's get, say 8 people on the side of the "learn and adapt" debate and have them face only 5 members of a team of "elites".

Be it [div3rse], FK, a mixed team, whoever.

This match is not to embarrass anyone or prove how much we "have adapted" and can own people, it's to prove to you guys just how futile it is to play against serious skilled players with all of this nerfing.

The reason I say give your side almost double the # of players is to even drive the point home even further that it has become utterly impossible to accomplish the game objectives (even when you have a massive player base advantage) if you are playing anyone who knows what they are doing.




I'm team captain.

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 10:29 PM
Try this
g_saberDamageScale 10

Problem solved. IF the FC so much as gets touched by a saber he's dead.



Try reading what I just posted.

Not to mention most ladders require you to play with friendly fire on (almost all competitive games are like this in all leagues).

Do you have any idea how annoying and impossibly frustrating that would make competition play?



Guys again, having every single glancing blow and bare knick do instant death is a bad idea.

That is why this problem can not be solved with an across the board damage cvar.

boinga1
09-21-2003, 11:06 PM
Has anyone tried setting saber throw to 0? I heard that allowed you kicks for ALT fire instead of throw. I don't know if it's true, but it would allow you to kick and not use the staff.

I'll go check it out.

EDIT: Nevermind, this doesn't work.

lllKyNeSlll
09-21-2003, 11:07 PM
The tenloss scope shoudl activate and deactivate on touch rather than a 1 sec delay.

fk | screed
09-21-2003, 11:32 PM
Yeah I have a gripe with the tenloss scope too, as a Merc in the one siege game I was Boba Fett with the jet pack. Flying from roof top to roof top and sniping is sweet, but the scope takes to long to deactivate. I got killed several times by a rocket b/c I took that last second shot, went to turn my rocket pack on but the damn scope took to long to deactivate.

Saber only sucks in JA. All the noobs that play Jedi in the Siege game get totally owned by my l33t sniping skills. Boba > Jedi

lllKyNeSlll
09-21-2003, 11:46 PM
owned by a saberist to mention as well with 150+ ping on american servers

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 11:50 PM
heh, yeah the sniper scope delay is a very big gripe from all of the twl gunners as well.

it's another example of a nerf that was not needed but put it and screwed some thing up.

HFB_Muerte
09-21-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Try reading what I just posted.

Not to mention most ladders require you to play with friendly fire on (almost all competitive games are like this in all leagues).

Do you have any idea how annoying and impossibly frustrating that would make competition play?



Guys again, having every single glancing blow and bare knick do instant death is a bad idea.

That is why this problem can not be solved with an across the board damage cvar.

So essentially what you are saying is that by removing kick they killed CTF. I thought you were all arguing that saber damage was too weak which is why kick was so effective in the first place. Now that kick is gone and saber damage can be controlled I don't know what the issue is.

I'm sure what you are saying is true, that CTF is no longer viable in JA...I think that with time things will adjust and you'll find CTF, although different from JO, is just as doable as it ever was. I'm SURE a reasonable damage scale can be found that will not cause insta-kills but will make the FC a lot more vulnerable.

I know you'll still argue your points, but I just thought I'd throw two cents in.

boinga1
09-22-2003, 12:18 AM
A little off-topic here...has anyone else gotten a lot of LAG playing? I have a pretty good connection, been playing JO for months with no problem, but all of sudden in JA I have lots of trouble in Power DUel and Siege especially.


And, in s/o ctf, how did you ever catch a runner in the first place? You say that removing kick means you can't hit him when you chase him from behind... For the record, if you play SABER ONLY, the whole point is to have close-up fighting. the saber was not designed for pursuits, so it is rather unsuited to capture the flagging.

Rad Blackrose
09-22-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by boinga1
A little off-topic here...has anyone else gotten a lot of LAG playing? I have a pretty good connection, been playing JO for months with no problem, but all of sudden in JA I have lots of trouble in Power DUel and Siege especially.


I agree on there being some interesting latency issues.

That and it takes about 3 minutes to go from Awaiting Gamestate to the loading screen...

Prime
09-22-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
To add to that, the kick is not nearly as effective as the old kick.

So now, the elite players aren't just going to use whatever they have to win, they're going to be using something that will probably jsut give them more headaches. But why isn't it potentially (once people get the hang of it) as effective as the old kick? What can you do with the old kick that you cannot with the new kick? People may not be as good with it right off the bat, but if they can achieve the same ends, then eventually people should be just as good and effective with the new kick as with the old.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Having the saber staff become the solution is just downright.... wrong. That would mean that everyone is stuck with one set of moves to use.

While the old kick was considered spammy or whored, at the same time, it still allowed for variety. It did not hinder what people could do. If you liked blue stance, yellow stance, etc., you could still use it, even though the results may have varied.

The S/O CTF needs a solution that doesn't involved limiting the game to ONE saber style. Even JO had three. But from what I understand, no one really uses the lightsaber anyway, because it is too week. From what I understand, the red stance is used for DFA and the heavy damage. Did anyone use the light and medium stances in JO S/O CTF? All I have heard is how the lightsaber was just a glowrod. That is why kicking is so important, because even Red isn't good enough to kill, so kick becomes the premier weapon. So if no one used other stances (correct me if this wasn't the case), why is there a problem with just using the lightstaff? And in any event, why do competative players care? They just want to use what wins. Whether it is one stance or several stances shouldn't matter to them.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
The best kick user in the history of Jedi Outcast was a guy from =X= named Idiot Savant.

He could do things with those double tap kicks that even to this day make the best of the best stand there with open mouths in amazement.

Take a map like ctf_ns_streets.

He would chase a flag carrier down who was moving at 90 miles per hour with level 3 speed and protected from pulls by absorb, swoop down from almost out of no where and land on a two inch section of a ledge just at the exact moment the flag carrier passed it, and then precisely kick and angle his shot to score a knock back in the opposite direction to knock the guy off for a pit death and return his flag.

All executed with almost surgical precision that even many elite players could not match.

The kicks and how they were used on competition level play is nothing like how they are used by average players on public servers.

For us they are a very complex and precise tool we used in multiple situations to get the job done.

Do you know ho to rush a person head on and then do kick directly face to face in a straight line but send the guy off in a 90 degree angle to his doom (like off a ledge) with out ever changing your player direction to angle the impact point?

He does sound impressive. But is there anyhing about the new kick that would prevent him from becoming equally effective in JA? As far as I can tell, all the abilities of flip kick are present in the staff kick. If it is not, what is lacking? Likely people aren't going to be as good with it as the old way yet, but after practice they should be just as good if they can do the same things. You are be able to move in one direction and kick in another, since the staff kick has this ability (whether I can do it is or not is anotehr story :) ).


Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Where kicks are a major factor in ff/so ctf can be seen on maps like the new coruscant streets (or w/e it is called).

a capper has to watch his ass because of all those ledges and such when he makes a run for the flag or is on his way back.

You got a guy guarding a bridge mid way and even with absorb, if you try to leap over him he will do an offensive push/pull to stun you just as you leap, run in and kick you off in a single shot (while you are in the recovery animation) to your doom and return his flag.

Now with kicks gone, you run, leap, he stuns you, and... as he trys a Kata, you walk around him, stop, call him a moron and keep on trucking. But again, he is able to kick him off the ledge with the new kick, isn't he?

Rumor
09-22-2003, 12:40 AM
velocity kicks = not possible with staff kick

kicking on the move = not possible on anyone that is moving and has half a brain

flip kicks require you to jump and usually involve using push/pull to get the kickee to come within range and stun them. pull kicking wtih the staff = not possible.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 12:42 AM
The "new" kick is extremely limited.

First, only the saber staffers can execute it, so basically (If that kick did work like in JO) you just took out the other 2 lightsabers. Think cookie cutter.

At least in outcast you did have people that used light stance (me for example) instead of the heavy stance and were still able to do better than most. So Outcast was at least a little diversified in tactics. In Academy everyone would use staff only b/c they could use kick.


Back to why the "new" kick is limited. Second, its slower than molasses in 30 degree weather. By the time a guy using force speed comes by with absorb, FIRST you gotta stop him, ok you pull/push him, OH CRAP now I cant kick for another 2 seconds b/c i just pulled! The flag carrier promplty waves thanks for the force boost and continues his way.

Academy has taken all combos and flushed them straight down the toilet. Everything requires a cool down, I rolled and tried to pull this guy down, but found that you cant do anything while your rolling. The only combos that are left in this game are holding down the attack button and rotating around and circles to make your guy spin with the lightsaber.

boinga1
09-22-2003, 12:49 AM
PEOPLE! TRY TO ADAPT TO THE GAME BEFORE YOU SAY IT ALL SUCKS!

The kick is limited. You know why? Because the JO one was over-used. When people run around with no weapon and just kick people instead of using a LIGHTSABER, that means that something is wrong. That means something has to be done. So, Raven removes over-spammed kick. I THINK THAT MAKES SENSE, although they could simply have removed damage from it.

There are TONS of combos left. If you are talking about gripkick, pullkick, pullthrow, pullthrowkick, then yes, these combos are gone. But there are new moves for every stance, AS WELL AS TWO COMPLETELY NEW SABER STYLES.


And why is kick so important in the first place? That's waht I don't get.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 01:00 AM
Kick was a setup move or a stopper. In CTF I would kick an opponant down turn absorb on so he could not push me than heavy stance slash em and 1 hit kill.

New saber moves are not combos.

A combo is 2+ moves put together to devestate your opponant quickly. Jumping and swinging your saber is not a combo. Kata (although looks like a combo) is not one, its pressing 2 buttons at once and sitting back to watch the pretty colors.

The only way for you people that keep posting things like, find some new tactics, to actually see what we are complaining about is to take two of the competition players and make a demo so you can all see what were talking about. Also to make a demo of a match in Jedi Outcast between the same two people. I guarantee you would all agree on what we are trying to say here.

In competition play, what seperates the l33t's from the noobs is that ability to win in a single quick and devestating combo. If you cannot end the match in that single combo than your going to be standing there for a VERY LONG TIME.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 01:00 AM
/ignore fan boy rant mode on




Ok back on topic, prime like screed said it is very limited.

Trust me we have been trying to find ways to "exploit" or "spam" them to some level of effectiveness against skilled players but it is simply too limited and restrictive.

Oh sure I can kick "Padawan" down all day and saber the hell out of him (as I have the many noobs I have played over the last two days), but when playing a guy like Screed or myself, we see it coming a mile away and it's simply too damn slow and restrictive to be of any use.


Think of it like the "fists" you have when no points are put in saber skills.

Sure if I practiced non stop I could do some really impressive mid air punches on people, but in terms of an over all tool that can be used to effectively progress game play how much of a use is it?


0

Remember guys, we are talking competition level player vs. competition level player problems here, not us vs. Joe Blow on public servers.

noide
09-22-2003, 01:01 AM
it slows down the fc and/or knocks them down pits and/or to the ground.

prime: kick wasnt the only thing used in s/o ctf. red style saber was the most used. kick was used to knock down and finish off.

AxVegetA
09-22-2003, 01:02 AM
I played JO 1.02, duels, ffa and ctf.
The proble here seems to be in CTF.

First of all, in JO you couldnt choose too many force powers points (depending on the servers), so you could choose for example, absorb 2, pull full, saber atack full and jump full.
You can do that in JA too, i guess.
So that if they have absorb, speed and jump full, they wont have any saber defense or ofense, and they wont be able to pull push.
Also CTF servers had a low regen time.

So if the FC runs with speed and absorb (unusual in ctf 1.02), you have these choices:

If you are behind him, or you run with speed too and try to cath him, well pulling or whatever. In this case you will probably fail.
In JO you couldnt catch a guy with speed if you were behind him.
Actually thats what speed does.

But if you are in front of him, you have several options.
You could stand in front of him and do any saber move, and if he jumps over you, well, that will cost him more force than what he has alredy consumed (using speed and absorb), in case you miss the atack and he jumps over you, and keeps runing, or you fall back or you just try to catch him bunny hoping till his speed runs of (once it does you can grip them cause they wont have pp, hehe), and you arent alone in your team, another player can do the same and i am completely sure that with a second jump he wil run out of force.

Dont tell me you defend the flag in the exact flag place, lol, cause you arent able to kill the enemy before it caps or after.

Thats the reason why only noobs used speed-absorb in JO.
The good players buny hoped (you go faster in some levels), and stoped every once in a while to fight players pulling him or standing in front.

I havent played 1.03 or any other, but i am sure its the same concept.

The only problem you could complain about CTF in JA is that you have a fast regen time and a lot of points to select force powers.

You all "competitive s/o ctf players", rofl, wanted the same strategies to play ctf as in JO. I guess now u suck, because its diferent, maybe the game isnt suposed to end 5/4 or 12/8, but 20/15 or who knows.

By the way, i dont know diverse, i never played 1.03.
That clan may be the best in 1.03 but just that.
And supernub, please, please stf, YOU are the bigest insult to the game, your opinion in ANY topic is completely worthless.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 01:03 AM
Fist fighting is fun!:mad:


Ax? Doesnt that stand for almost =X= b/c you suxxored to much to get in their clan?

AxVegetA
09-22-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
and this AXvegeta guy, just ignore him, he's jus a loud mouth, no name random noob trolling to try and get a rise out of people.


Excuse me sir but that must be you.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 01:08 AM
AXVegeta or whatever your in game name is, let's do this:

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.03.

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.04.

You don't EVEN HAVE Jedi Academy.

How about you shut the hell up when until you can actually contribute to what people are talking about by actually KNOWING what they are talking about.


/edit do you play Jk2 1.04?


Please, oh dear god please tell me you do.

If you do I will make you this deal:

1v1 me, 10 rounds (a full map), no time limit.

You win I leave these forums and never come back.

I win, you stay out of this tread or any others we start about this topic.

Deal?

I'm serious.

All you have done is flame and troll in here and do your best to turn this into a flame war, here is your chance to walk what you talk.

noide
09-22-2003, 01:08 AM
ctf regen isnt slow its default

and most good ctf servers use master level force so you get quite alot of force points so I dont see how it's unusual for fcs to use absorb + speed. if they didnt they would suck

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 01:09 AM
Off topic but what the hell?

I was eating a pack of M&M's at work and I got a purple 1! Doesnt that mean I win something?

AxVegetA
09-22-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
AXVegeta or whatever your in game name is, let's do this:

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.03.

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.04.

You don't EVEN HAVE Jedi Academy.

How about you shut the hell up when until you can actually contribute to what people are talking about by actually KNOWING what they are talking about.


/edit do you play Jk2 1.04?


Please, oh dear god please tell me you do.

If you do I will make you this deal:

1v1 me, 10 rounds (a full map), no time limit.

You win I leave these forums and never come back.

I win (a given) I get to post a demo (which I plan to record) of just how much of a loud mouth noob you are?

Deal?

Are you retard, blind or what?
Read my f-ucking post, i just played 1.02, get it?
We can make that deal in 1.02, ill be pleased.

Knowing what you are all talking about?
You are all just crying the hell out because you canot catch a FC, a whole thread to that. And i answered you in my last post.
Using speed and absorb, and jumping, they will run out of force very very soon. But if you dont know how to kill him when they are out of force in front of you, well thats a shame.
You must be the most stupid person in the whole game, in order to start a thread because you canot catch a flag carrier the way u used to do it in JO.

You know OR, that was the best clan in ctf. Now they dont have any trouble now. Because smart people find solutions. Retards like you just cryed since the game was released that you couldnt catch a FC with absorb and speed (buny hop is elite, not that, whoever uses speed+absorb is a noob).
Now stop crying the thread and play the f-ucking game to find a solution and if you cant , is just that you are even more stupid than i thought.

[fk]myth.
09-22-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
heh, yeah the sniper scope delay is a very big gripe from all of the twl gunners as well.

it's another example of a nerf that was not needed but put it and screwed some thing up.

OMG what about this 3 second delay for det packs? That is pathetic. In seige to take out the desert wall you need like 10. It's like... det pack... 1... 2... 3... det pack.... 1.. 2... 3... Eventually I end up killing myself of bordem and switching player type.

First of all, in JO you couldnt choose too many force powers points (depending on the servers), so you could choose for example, absorb 2, pull full, saber atack full and jump full.
You can do that in JA too, i guess.
So that if they have absorb, speed and jump full, they wont have any saber defense or ofense, and they wont be able to pull push.
Also CTF servers had a low regen time.

You've GOT to be kidding. Did you just make that off the top of your head (you havent played since february). In S/O CTF Community competition level Force was set at Jedi Master. Meaning you could have (what I normally used) Jump 3, Push 3, Pull 3, Speed 3, Seeing 2, Absorb 3, Team Heal 3, Saber Attack 3, Saber defense 2, and Saber Throw 1. It's the same in JA (I think its -1 point though I can't get seeing level2). So, yes, they will have saber defense, and with saber attack lvl 3 it doesn't matter it won't to jack ****.

What can you do with the old kick that you cannot with the new kick?

Simple. Pull. That's the main reason kick was so useful. You can't pull the player into your kick with staff you have to assume he's going to jump into it.

This issue isn't dependent on flipkick, is it? I mean, you have to catch the FC to kick him anyway, right? I don't see how kick solves this problem.

Here's a comparison

Jedi Outcast

The flag carrier has the flag, he has Speed 3 and Absorb 3 on and an Energizer behind him. He is a little far in front of you.

You throw on Speed 3 and chase after him. You strafe jump over pits and such because he can't (hence you can catch him) since if he does he gets pulled and falls in the cliff. So now you're dead behind him and the Energizer. You can hop over the energizer who doesn't have speed because he wasted his force energizing, then kick the FC off or knock him down/saber his ass, or you could knock the energizer down then speed up and knock the FC down and saber his ass. Problem solved.

Jedi Academy

The flag carrier has the flag, he has Speed 3 and Absorb 3 on and an Energizer behind him. He is a little far in front of you.

You throw on Speed 3 and chase after him. You strafe jump over pits and such because he can't (hence you can catch him) since if he does he gets pulled and falls in the cliff. So now you're dead behind him and the Energizer. Now, the only thing you can do is try and saber him, which, won't work because saber damage is in the crap hole. So what do you do? You can't knock him over, no kick. You can't saber him, low damage. There is nothing you can do to kill him in JA unless you get lucky or he accidently spills pop on his keyboard and forgets to turn left.

See the difference? See why kick is needed?

Side
09-22-2003, 01:35 AM
Not only do u have to catch up the fc but u also gotta deal with the capper turning around push the whole crow chasing him...wait that not all,people chasin the FC will also have to deal with escorter,guarder wutever u call em

Chasing the fc isnt the hardest part,cuz the fc can do sum mistake like falling,gettin blocked by his teamate,et,etc....it killing the fc whiles hes at his base

here an exemple:The FC(Flag carrier) got the flag,and hes at his base and hes whoring protect with the guarder energizing him(in case u didnt know protect work with force)
Mind trick him and kata him?Sorry but capper will hear mind trick and activate seing and even if he didnt hear it,kata wont be strong enuff to kill him cuz he got protect on
Drain him?sorry again,he got an energizer giving him force

A a capper doesnt fight back hes just gonna run around avoiding evrything

So how the hell are u supose to kill him?

...man i gotta work on my english grammar anyway u guys get my point

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 01:39 AM
Again vegeta, I *asked if you played 1.04.

Ask is something people use when they are not sure.

In this case I though you may have played it by now.


But as I said and now stand corrected, you do not play 1.03, you do not play 1.04 and you DO NOT EVEN OWN JEDI ACADEMY so please leave.

You have nothing at all to contribute to this thread because you have no idea at all about the things we are discussing.

[fk]myth.
09-22-2003, 01:43 AM
Ah yes Side I almost forgot about if he makes it back. That's even harder to kill him in JA than if he hasn't made it back yet.

Being a Returner (one who returns the flag) myself, I don't really know much about capping, when when push comes to shove I can hold my own pretty well. There are some amazing cappers in this game (S/O CTF) and playing in JA is a breeze for them. The bottom line is that S/O CTF was one of the most popular competetive communities (we had a sponsored tournament just a month ago while other people had tossed their game in the box labelled "Useless crap"), and all of us who were hoping for that competetivness in the sequel to the game got canned. We aren't just going to pack up and move to a new gametype, it doesn't work that way. We're trying to balance our gametype so we can play with the same balance and fun you all have.

Pyro
09-22-2003, 01:43 AM
do you know "stafe jump" move?

AxVegetA
09-22-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
But as I said and now stand corrected, you do not play 1.03, you do not play 1.04 and you DO NOT EVEN OWN JEDI ACADEMY so please leave.

You have nothing at all to contribute to this thread because you have no idea at all about the things we are discussing.

You know what? ill leave this thread, cause people like you be the most useless players ever, and you make me sick.

CTF in jedimaster level just sucked, because of all you have said.
Change the regen time to slow, and choose less force points, and there you have a more competitive ctf game.

And if you cant kill the capper in one hit, well them make it two.

and speed+absorb+jump+sense? ohh, and protect?lol, are you kiding me?

If they play in team, well then play in team you too.
Find a team solution.

Peace i am out.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 01:54 AM
Side it's ok we all know you Frenchy’s talk funny.

;)

But he's (and myth) right.

You guys have to keep in mind that the goal is to kill a 90 mph moving target that can leap 100 feet into the air and will be constantly healed and energized by his team mates so he's going to almost always have 100 hp and full force.

To kill said target you must first and foremost, stop his movement.

grip is not an option due to 99.9% of cappers using absorb (and even the dark cappers now can not be gripped and held/slashed by team mates because of the new grip nerf on the line of sight).

push/pull can slow him at times but keep in mind he gets 20 force from each pull so when you run out he's going to have a full force bar and his speed level 3 is going to make him go bye bye right after your final pull (and now depleted force pool).


Kick is not an option because of how slow and restrictive they are with staff kicks.

Guy is camping at the bridge, uh oh he's going to do just like in JK2.. Whap and I get drilled and fall and lose the flag.


lol no wait he ran at me, stopped dead in his tracks and stuck his foot out...

lol later

zoooom

/back to base


Capper from other team does the same.

Now enter 20 minute stalemate.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 01:56 AM
Vegeta is what we call a noob :D

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
You know what? ill leave this thread, cause people like you be the most useless players ever, and you make me sick.

CTF in jedimaster level just sucked, because of all you have said.
Change the regen time to slow, and choose less force points, and there you have a more competitive ctf game.

And if you cant kill the capper in one hit, well them make it two.

and speed+absorb+jump+sense? ohh, and protect?lol, are you kiding me?

If they play in team, well then play in team you too.
Find a team solution.

Peace i am out.


lol "slow" is this thing called "default"...

heh got to love these guys.

:rolleyes:

anyways later and have a good evening.

AxVegetA
09-22-2003, 02:07 AM
Screed is what we call a claned noob nerd faggot with mental disorder :D

Re\/aN
09-22-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Umm no offense dude but here is a tip to all Lucas Forum members.

Full Force Saber only is the #1 game type in competitive play and has always been.

I'm sorry if I come across as trite or condescending.. but being a casual gamer I'd like to voice my opinion on any kind of MP changes that people are wanting.

Full Force Saber only is the #1 game type in competitive play and has always been.

Hint to the hordes of competitive players on the forums, it's not our (the casual gamer's) concern. The largest consumer group of games.. normally when a minority of gamers aren't fully satisfied with the gameplay they are getting from a particular game, they create their own version. I know this thread is suppose to be recommendations for improvements for the MP aspect of the game (and as I can tell S/O CTF mainly).. So I would recommend you gather all the players that are capable of making a mod, and make one kick ass S/O CTF mod. Cause in reality, like one poster said, you're not likely to get such a fix from Raven, and that's my humble opinion.

Sidebar - I'm hoping for a good mod community with JA, so we all can get what we want out of JA, albeit competitive or casual.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 02:16 AM
You lied Vegeta, you said you were leaving :mad:

Side
09-22-2003, 02:25 AM
er double post sorry

Rumor
09-22-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by fk | screed
You lied Vegeta, you said you were leaving :mad:

wtf what a lamer

Side
09-22-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Re\/aN
Hint to the hordes of competitive players on the forums, it's not our (the casual gamer's) concern. The largest consumer group of games.. normally when a minority of gamers aren't fully satisfied with the gameplay they are getting from a particular game, they create their own version. I know this thread is suppose to be recommendations for improvements for the MP aspect of the game (and as I can tell S/O CTF mainly).. So I would recommend you gather all the players that are capable of making a mod, and make one kick ass S/O CTF mod. Cause in reality, like one poster said, you're not likely to get such a fix from Raven, and that's my humble opinion.

Sidebar - I'm hoping for a good mod community with JA, so we all can get what we want out of JA, albeit competitive or casual.


League dont accept mod

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Re\/aN
I'm sorry if I come across as trite or condescending.. but being a casual gamer I'd like to voice my opinion on any kind of MP changes that people are wanting.

Full Force Saber only is the #1 game type in competitive play and has always been.

Hint to the hordes of competitive players on the forums, it's not our (the casual gamer's) concern. The largest consumer group of games.. normally when a minority of gamers aren't fully satisfied with the gameplay they are getting from a particular game, they create their own version. I know this thread is suppose to be recommendations for improvements for the MP aspect of the game (and as I can tell S/O CTF mainly).. So I would recommend you gather all the players that are capable of making a mod, and make one kick ass S/O CTF mod. Cause in reality, like one poster said, you're not likely to get such a fix from Raven, and that's my humble opinion.

Sidebar - I'm hoping for a good mod community with JA, so we all can get what we want out of JA, albeit competitive or casual.

Agreed to a degree but keep in mind guys, we paid money just like you did.

I am also all for making a better game for all parties concerned.

When the gunners complain about the delay for the sniper rifle zoom do you see me saying "Who cares what you think, this game is supposed to be focused on sabers so your opinion does not count"?

Of course not.

Same goes for the things put in for the casual gamer.

Personally I think the duel emotes are about as fruity and stupid as a game can get but I'm not going to demand they be removed.


Really if you are a casual gamer, how will these changes affect you?

They won’t.


Software companies make patches for one reason and one reason only.

To make the people who play their games happy and make them want to come back and spend more money on the sequels.

Pure and simple.

And while there was a large number of Jedi Knight Players who bought Jedi Outcast simply because it was the next in the series, a lot of people bought it on word of mouth and based on all of the stellar reviews it was getting because of it's fresh and innovative game play.


Jedi Academy however, was sold 99% on the name and reputation of Jedi Outcast.


You tell a very large portion of those customers to "piss off, play this and like it" and you're only going to drive the sales potential for the next game in the series down even further.

Take a look at Quake 3.

They did a lot of patches but a few were just horrible. It totally messed up the balance and game play.

Now id could have taken the “oh well” road but they listened to their player base, gave their *customers what they wanted and I guarantee you those happy people will be supporting their games for a long time to come.

But let me ask you people this.

If these changes will not effect the casual gamer then why are you so opposed to making them to keep a large customer base (and keep the community bigger and thriving for a long time to come after the initial sale frenzy on launch) around?

Re\/aN
09-22-2003, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Side
League dont accept mod

Perhaps it's the league that should be lobbied for changes then. :ang2:

noide
09-22-2003, 02:38 AM
1 question: why do the casual gamers care if kick and the moves we need are put back into the game. why do they care if the force restrictions are taken out of the game so that s/o ctf is playable again. casual gamers shouldnt give a sht. they dont play this game like us. they dont try in this game like us. they just fck around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht. let the competitive players have what we need to play competively. the casual gamers will be happy with whatever. its not like they try to win or anything. they just put the wookie skin on and choose their dual saber and chat with friends while emoting.

Rad Blackrose
09-22-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
Screed is what we call a claned noob nerd faggot with mental disorder :D

http://www.ascendancy.net/tribalwar/Troll.jpg

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by noide
1 question: why do the casual gamers care if kick and the moves we need are put back into the game. why do they care if the force restrictions are taken out of the game so that s/o ctf is playable again. casual gamers shouldnt give a sht. they dont play this game like us. they dont try in this game like us. they just fck around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht. let the competitive players have what we need to play competively. the casual gamers will be happy with whatever. its not like they try to win or anything. they just put the wookie skin on and choose their dual saber and chat with friends while emoting.

not the way I would word it, but 100% on the mark true.

Doctor Shaft
09-22-2003, 02:46 AM
there are so many posts about either leaving the game alone or making a mod.

I can't say much to the parties that believe the game should never be touched, other than I'm a selfish bastard who enjoys making pointless efforts to change the game in my favor, even if it effects hundreds of others' enjoyment.

However, in this case, i'm not even about promoting a game change that would effect everyone. I just want something that caters to small group of theoretically undeserving, pathetic whiners like myself. In the end, I'm doing the same as anyone else would if JA had proven unsatisfactory in other areas.

Mods will not solve the problem. This method has been tried, tested, and as I've said before, proven false. Let me give you a small list of mods that added no bells and whistles, and merely attempted to improve game play:

JK2++ : An alternative view on how gameplay mechanics should be for JO. IT was done primarily for those disastisfied with CTF, and the backstab phenomenon. This was probably one of the first server side mods that actually introduced lethal, one hit two hit kill sabers, and force power tweaks, like giving people more ability to use speed and jump. While many fans were happy, the pro community was not, and no one ever accepted it. Plus, leagues apparently don't allow mods like that.

Promod: Another alternative to the saber debate. This one created sabers that were about two to three hits, excluding getting nailed by the red stance chop, etc. Also was the only mod out there that actually changed the blocking system. Although it was 'lag dependent' as some critics would call it, Promod blocking was actually quite accurate so long as you had a reasonable ping. I can attest to this. I would have called myself one of the primary players of that mod.


Anyway, I'm sure there were other things out there, like that X mod I keep reading about. The bottom line is that despite good intentions and great ideas, no vast group was willing to accept it. either people were just too stubborn to leave JK 1.04, always insisting that they 'liked' it (or they really did, whatever), or they just weren't into downloading mods and thought everything was another Jedimod. Mods won't work. Raven is the key. That's it. Raven.

Or... someone can find this magical method to stopping an FC from being nearly invincible in S/O CTF play. Either will do.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 02:52 AM
Ok about that sniper scope deal, I can understand the delay of the scope IF the charge up was a little faster, but as it stands the delay of engaging/disengaging the scope + the charge up delay is just to time consuming.:D

Re\/aN
09-22-2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
-- too big for a full quote.. :)

Well said. I commend your resolve and ability to state your point. These are usually touchy subjects, cause your always going to have party A, that wants things a certain way and party B, that would like thing to stay as is.. Hard to please everybody. I liked the idea of a server-side option, but as far as making certain power moves easier to spam or kicks that is usually abused in other game types, that will affect all gamers, then I say negative. If the changes you are wanting only affect the people wanting the changes then I have no problem what so ever, but when you change something that for the most part is fine, just because of one game type being crippled, then that is not a good reason. IMHO

[div3rse.jello]
09-22-2003, 02:58 AM
btw screed ur whole bag of M&Ms have to be purple..haha

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
btw screed ur whole bag of M&Ms have to be purple..haha

BLAST! I was hoping to quit tonight. :(

Side
09-22-2003, 03:36 AM
k so far we got 2 dark force power totaly useless
Dark rage,Grip....
Dark rage is so useless cuz of move costing force+u dont get any speed bonus with speed on and grip...WHAT THE POINT OF GRIP IN JKA!u get to watch the guy gettin choked that all....wow

JarJarBinks
09-22-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Side
grip...WHAT THE POINT OF GRIP IN JKA!u get to watch the guy gettin choked that all....wow

Throw you saber at him when he's in the air? If you have level 3 grip, you can ram him into walls and throw him about 100 feet in the air, or you can just hold them over a pit and they can't do anything about it, if they force push or absorb they fall to their death.

=X=Master HeX
09-22-2003, 04:09 AM
Flip kick like in JO:
This will take me 5mins to add back into the game, and another 1 to declare a cvar so it can be enabled/disabled.

Force Requirements/Cost of all moves:
I can cvar both of these for each move in 5-10 mins.

Admin commands that arn't retarded:
I've already coded all of these and I'm ready to port them into JA.

Making grip not lame:
5mins to seek and destroy a stupid Line of Sight If statement and then cvar it.




So I guess what I'm saying is Raven/LA should give me a job or release the SDK so I can fix my server!

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 04:13 AM
Hex I wuv you! Im sure the rest of the competitive community of FF S/O CTF loves you too!:D

Also tell Battousai I said Hi!

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 04:26 AM
All I have to say is this:

Hex, you are god. If I were a woman, I'd have your babies.

OH, and AxVegeta, you say since you've never heard of div3rse we're not big...but keep in mind that div3rse has been around since the release of 1.03...but if you had quit last febuary, you'd be around since 1.04...and div3rse was rather large even then, so...anyone else wanna call shannanigans [/South Park Reference]?

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 04:29 AM
whos div3rse?:p

Side
09-22-2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]
but keep in mind that div3rse has been around since the release of 1.03...but if you had quit last febuary, you'd be around since 1.04...[/South Park Reference]?

since 1.2 actualy
(off topic but oh well)

and jarjar grip might be useful in TFFA and FFA but in s/o CTF and FF duel it aint worth ****
i seriously doubt u gonna kill a FC with absorb on
and in FF ur only gonna deal a few dmg and ur foe just gonna drain back his health

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 04:33 AM
my bad side. I've only been around since 1.04 :D


Oh and screed...div3rse is the clan that beat FK a month or 2 ago :eek: Don't tell fallen that though, he doesn't seem to want to hear it :eek:

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 04:34 AM
oh, and please note that the previous post was made fully as something playful, not insulting.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by Side
since 1.2 actualy
(off topic but oh well)

and jarjar grip might be useful in TFFA and FFA but in s/o CTF and FF duel it aint worth ****
i seriously doubt u gonna kill a FC with absorb on
and in FF ur only gonna deal a few dmg and ur foe just gonna drain back his health

Actually if you team up with another darksider and 1 drain whores em so he has no force (pending theres no energizer with the FC) the other dark sider can grip kick him killing him pretty quickly.

Oh and screed...div3rse is the clan that beat FK a month or 2 ago Don't tell fallen that though, he doesn't seem to want to hear it

You only won cause' I wasnt there :p

[div3rse.jello]
09-22-2003, 04:36 AM
lol he's kiddin syn

and a ton of jello for hex

HEX FOR PRESIDENT

sorry shaft

Side
09-22-2003, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by fk | screed
Actually if you team up with another darksider and 1 drain whores em so he has no force (pending theres no energizer with the FC) the other dark sider can grip kick him killing him pretty quickly.

(no offense on this post)
that would only work vs newbies any good team would get someone energizing the FC

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 04:42 AM
you're assuming you get the drain past the absorb...and even then...you hold grip down and I guarentee absorb will be able to turn on...which = full force...so the FC is now gone.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 04:50 AM
Like I said before, I'm not happy about a software company dumping the job of fixing their games on the shoulders of the mod community but if this is what it takes then so be it.

But I will say it's nice to actually have people who are willing to devote their time into helping the community.

So again, thanks Hex for all the work.
It really is appreciated by more people than just the CTF guys.

I'm also glad that Hex is putting the options to enable/disable certain game play dynamics like the retail release should have done.

My only suggestion to Hex would be although =X= is mainly a saber only clan, lend an ear to the gunners of Jedi Academy because I don't want to see them left out in the cold by the developers either.

they have some issues with things like the sniper zoom delay that is screwing up game play and I doubt they are going to get any different treatment than the silent treatment we have gotten as well (from official sources).

=X=Master HeX
09-22-2003, 04:59 AM
So far I've done my best to collect a team of programmers that I thought could lend a hand in the production of the new mod. Unlike my JO work this will be open source and under development by more then one programmer. We plan to bring things like JA IRC server bots (to relay chat rcon etc), trillian server listings, server side stat tracking, and of course all the rest of the time will be devoted to anything else the community requested.

It has been common practice for me to make all changes an option in my mods. In fact you can run a JO server with xmod on it as if it were a base game (aside from the xmod centerscreen on connect). I will be doing the same and welcome the help of the entire community. If you are interested in helping with the project contact me via something (email, icq, aim, msn, yim, something) with a brief description of what you could do to assist us.

Thanks for the complements guys, but I really don't see myself as a superman or anything. Just another JK junkie server admin looking to help out where he can.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 05:21 AM
I would love to help out Hex, but I know very little about programming and the such. If you need a guinea pig im your man! :D

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 05:22 AM
hex >

Side
09-22-2003, 06:49 AM
awsome...i wish i knew programing **** but il try to ask around if they could help

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 06:50 AM
get draco!!!

Ardent
09-22-2003, 04:30 PM
I agree that JA's S/O CTF (if you can even find a server running it) is lame.

I hate to say this because it makes me feel like I'm whining but "back in the day" catching a runner was a matter of timing your bunny hops for better acceleration and top speed. Now every nub can bunny hop as well as I can (since the timing bracket is so decreased, at least from what I can tell), so you have to resort to owning them with dfa around the corner. Which is an old skool and awesome tactic, but no longer really viable. I mean, I can still pull it off because I never used (and still don't use) Force Seeing in conjunction with it. But if I did, the drain on my Force bar would mean after I missed (heh) I'd be totally useless as a returner. Which is garbage.

My biggest issue with JA so far is that each saber style seems to dominate a particular type of game. Single saber still rules the duel school, while dual-saber lays the smack down in FFA and double-saber is the obvious winniner in CTF. That's lame. If I want to use dual-sabers in CTF and still be effectively, I freaking should be able to. Heck, I don't use Throw Lightsaber anyway, why the hell can't I kick with alt fire (even THAT would be something)?

As far as old-skool flipkicking, anyone who played comp-level S/O CTF learned how to kick. The two best kickers were easily =X='s Idiot Savant and fk's Mega Death, but most everyone who played could do it well. I know I pulled off a lot of kicks that demanded timing and precision and almost always resulted in a dead FC. I logged into JK2 the other night, jumped on the div server and proceeded to once again own the nubs (btw who the hell are you people?) on the server with flying pull-kicks on their absorb.

The kicks in JA are lame and nubly. If I kick someone, the chance I can capitalize on their knockdown is so ridiculously slim, especially considering how ungainly the double-saber is. I wouldn't even mind if the kick did 0 damage. As long as I could throw people and then capitalize, it's all good.

I know it annoys nubs when someone who is a comp-level player is thrashing them with superior skills, but that's going to happen. There's always someone better and people who just "play for fun" tend to be at the bottom of the ladder. Catering to them is rather silly. Would you cater a gourmet dining experience to the bacteria on the plates? Doubtful.

Of course, I understand part of the problem. A lot of the skilled multiplayer players didn't actually (and in a lot of cases still have yet to) buy a copy of the game. But it doesn't make the opinion of those of us who did any less valid.

Lightsabers effectively suck in JA. It's a good thing I've learned how to fire the Tenloss rifle with this one second prep-to-fire garbage. It's called "look for saber, shoot guy with saber while he's in the middle of a kata."

Oh and for the sake of all that's holy, what the heck's with the standing shock still while executing high-difficulty moves in MP? They work freaking right in single player! Hex, can you address this? I'd love to be able to use a kata in multiplayer since it's so cool to look at, and actually dying to one would make you feel so nubly.

Know it. Love it. Want it: teh notorious a.r.d.

Prime
09-22-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
velocity kicks = not possible with staff kick

kicking on the move = not possible on anyone that is moving and has half a brain

flip kicks require you to jump and usually involve using push/pull to get the kickee to come within range and stun them. pull kicking wtih the staff = not possible. Thanks Rumor. I see what your saying. But if a FC is using absorb, aren't you unable to pull them anyways?

Originally posted by noide
1 question: why do the casual gamers care if kick and the moves we need are put back into the game. why do they care if the force restrictions are taken out of the game so that s/o ctf is playable again. casual gamers shouldnt give a sht. they dont play this game like us. they dont try in this game like us. they just fck around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht. let the competitive players have what we need to play competively. the casual gamers will be happy with whatever. its not like they try to win or anything. they just put the wookie skin on and choose their dual saber and chat with friends while emoting. Casual gamers do care about winning and losing, just not to the extreme extent that competative players do. We are not satisfied with just "fcking around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht." When I play, I try to defeat my opponants and try to score enough to get near the top of the board. That is what the point of the game is, to try and get more kills/points than the other players. I don't get upset if I don't come in first, but I am disappointed if I end up last. I'll even go to the extent of trying to get better at the game by practicing a little bit. Basically, the casual gamer looks to play each gametype as it was intended, and try to achieve the goals specified.

Up to that point, casual gamers and competative players are about the same, apart from how strong the desire to win is. Where the difference comes in is how we want to be able to achieve the goals set by the gametype. The casual gamer wants to have weapons that reflect what has been seen in the Star Wars movies and books. We want a game the to some extent represents the universe that we are supposed to be playing in. This more or less means lightsabers and blasters, etc. The thing that made flipkicks so unpopular with casual gamers was not that there were kicks at all. On the contrary, most casual gamers would agree kicks definitely have their place along side the other weapons, and that it certainly fits in the Star Wars mythos (thus the popularity of staff kicks). Where the problems arose as far as we were concerned was with the implementation. I think the biggest issues were that the damage went right through to health and that you weren't open to attack in the middle of the kick, that you could defend against another saber but not against a kick (apart from getting ut of the way), and to a lesser extent because of how it looked (not like a kick). But ultimately, it was because kick was a more potent weapon than the lightsaber. This does not reflect what the lightsaber is supposed to represent potency-wise.

Speaking more or less for casual gamers, I do not want to see flipkicks return part and parcel as they were in JO, for the above reasons. I would be much more open to a solution to improve gameplay either through changes to improve the lightsaber, or improving the lightsaber and adding a more "accurate" form of kick. As for improving gameplay, I don't think too many casual gamers would get too upset if the changes were an improvement from an effectiveness standpoint, and fit into the universe the game is supposed to represent.

What you are confusing casual gamers with above is RPG players. From what I have seen, RPGers do not want to play the gametypes at all. They want to use the game to do things totally alien to what the game was designed to play like. I suspect you might be right is saying they may be happy with just sparks and swinging their sabers (although they don't seem to use their sabers at all anyway). In the RPG thread that has just started up, it appears that many are interested in "pretending" that their characters have nothing to do with Jedi at all. This attitude is very different from your normal casual gamer.

So in a nutshell:

Competative JO/JA gamer: Wants to win by any means necessary, regardless of any basis for his "tools" in Star Wars.

Casual JO/JA gamer: Wants to win, but wants his tools to reflect what is in the Star Wars universe. Because of this, we are not fond of kick as it was implemented in JO.

RPG JO/JA gamer: Wants everything to be exactly as it is in Star Wars, regardless of whether it makes a balanced game. This is because they don't play the game at all, and so balance issues don't matter to them.

I still believe that if a alteration in gameplay is really necessary that it is possible to have a solution that will satisfy both competative and casual gamers. Flaming aside, I think competative players are meeting resistence from casual players because bringing the old kick back does not satisfy both parties. Some competative players might not care a lick what casual gamers want (and vice versa) but I think we have a right to be happy about JA too. :)

Rumor
09-22-2003, 06:08 PM
pulling and pushing still stuns them (just doesn't score a knockdown), but you have to be very precise or you will just give them more force and they will get away. someone post the demo called "kicking goodness" that has idiot savant defending the flag in ff/so ctf.

Rumor
09-22-2003, 06:11 PM
well another difference about *MOST casual gamers/rpgers is they have an extremely large e-ego and if they get fragged it seems like the end of the world to them. that i just don't get.

competitive players get fragged? so what, they go back and try again instead of bitching about it.

Ardent
09-22-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Thanks Rumor. I see what your saying. But if a FC is using absorb, aren't you unable to pull them anyways?

They still stop moving briefly with Absorb. They just don't get pulled towards you or pushed away. It's easy to nail a sitting duck of a target. I'm more than willing to come show you in JO if you want, Prime. Or maybe Grinteh has some demos of me...hm...

Casual gamers do care about winning and losing, just not to the extreme extent that competative players do. We are not satisfied with just "fcking around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht." When I play, I try to defeat my opponants and try to score enough to get near the top of the board. That is what the point of the game is, to try and get more kills/points than the other players. I don't get upset if I don't come in first, but I am disappointed if I end up last. I'll even go to the extent of trying to get better at the game by practicing a little bit. Basically, the casual gamer looks to play each gametype as it was intended, and try to achieve the goals specified.

Nah, the true casual gamer is all about exploring the game for interesting stuff, not really playing competitively. It's silly to try. Those of us who do play competitively usually have a lot more practice under our belts. Most casual players don't even look beyond duel for long. Although Siege is very popular, I'll admit. But mostly with competitive players.

Up to that point, casual gamers and competative players are about the same, apart from how strong the desire to win is. Where the difference comes in is how we want to be able to achieve the goals set by the gametype. The casual gamer wants to have weapons that reflect what has been seen in the Star Wars movies and books. We want a game the to some extent represents the universe that we are supposed to be playing in. This more or less means lightsabers and blasters, etc.

And that's certainly played up in the single player mode. You have to pick and choose your weapons and all that fun stuff.

The thing that made flipkicks so unpopular with casual gamers was not that there were kicks at all. On the contrary, most casual gamers would agree kicks definitely have their place along side the other weapons, and that it certainly fits in the Star Wars mythos (thus the popularity of staff kicks). Where the problems arose as far as we were concerned was with the implementation.

Nobody in their right mind would say kicking is or was at any point perfect, but removing it entirely except for the lame staff kicks wasn't the right answer. Making it a Force skill...that might have been the answer.

I think the biggest issues were that the damage went right through to health and that you weren't open to attack in the middle of the kick, that you could defend against another saber but not against a kick (apart from getting ut of the way), and to a lesser extent because of how it looked (not like a kick). But ultimately, it was because kick was a more potent weapon than the lightsaber. This does not reflect what the lightsaber is supposed to represent potency-wise.

Kicking took some degree of skill, especially in a kick-fight. In a saber fight, the skill was mostly relegated to who could land a couple of strong hits (and knowing the saber tricks usually didn't help much).

Speaking more or less for casual gamers, I do not want to see flipkicks return part and parcel as they were in JO, for the above reasons. I would be much more open to a solution to improve gameplay either through changes to improve the lightsaber, or improving the lightsaber and adding a more "accurate" form of kick.

Most of the guys who want kick back wouldn't mind a smaller hitbox kick. It'd just mean a wider gap between the practiced and the "unpracticed," however.

As for improving gameplay, I don't think too many casual gamers would get too upset if the changes were an improvement from an effectiveness standpoint, and fit into the universe the game is supposed to represent.

Well, for all intents and purposes, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy are barely scraping by as a non-Infinities entity. Possibly only because of the popularity of the Dark Forces brand name and Kyle Katarn.

What you are confusing casual gamers with above is RPG players. From what I have seen, RPGers do not want to play the gametypes at all. They want to use the game to do things totally alien to what the game was designed to play like.

It's hard to differentiate one type of terrible player from another, usually. They're both dead before you have time to ponder it, and some more fodder is usually heading your way.

I suspect you might be right is saying they may be happy with just sparks and swinging their sabers (although they don't seem to use their sabers at all anyway). In the RPG thread that has just started up, it appears that many are interested in "pretending" that their characters have nothing to do with Jedi at all. This attitude is very different from your normal casual gamer.

Is it? RPGs are a major market-share of computer gaming. Major. Heck, even LucasArts produced one. That's saying something. Ten years ago, "back in the day" you had two options: Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy. Or maybe if you were old skool you had Crystalis or Zelda or something. But most of the time, it was Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy. Now, there are literally dozens of RPG titles to choose from. You can't say that an RPGer is "different from a normal casual gamer" because they ARE the normal casual gamers. Maybe casual FPS players are different, though.

Competative JO/JA gamer: Wants to win by any means necessary, regardless of any basis for his "tools" in Star Wars.

And we will, whether or not Raven wants to do the patch work themselves. Hex has already proven he can do better work than they can (just loadup xmod for JO, it's pretty clear it's about 4x better than standard JO).

Casual JO/JA gamer: Wants to win, but wants his tools to reflect what is in the Star Wars universe. Because of this, we are not fond of kick as it was implemented in JO.

Why would the casual gamer care? He's a casual gamer. If it's not exactly perfect, would he even know? I doubt it. Nobody seems to mind the fact that you can run on the walls (which isn't something we see in the Star Wars universe outside of Dark Forces). Nobody seems to mind that they can flip off walls (again, unique to DF). Why should one more little thing matter? It shouldn't.

RPG JO/JA gamer: Wants everything to be exactly as it is in Star Wars, regardless of whether it makes a balanced game. This is because they don't play the game at all, and so balance issues don't matter to them.

That's hardly true either. A knowledgable RPGer would know the second you try to make your mark on Star Wars is the second it ceases to be "as it is." I'm sure balance issues matter to enough of them that they might complain, but they're not a very vocal group on a whole.

I still believe that if a alteration in gameplay is really necessary that it is possible to have a solution that will satisfy both competative and casual gamers.

Doubtful. It's like a car company saying "Our Super Sport car will satisfy both casual and competitive drivers." Yeah, for all twenty seconds it takes that competitive driver to get under the hood and start boring the engine block, replacing air filters, stripping and placing a new exhaust system...a competitive person wants more. Period.

Flaming aside, I think competative players are meeting resistence from casual players because bringing the old kick back does not satisfy both parties. Some competative players might not care a lick what casual gamers want (and vice versa) but I think we have a right to be happy about JA too. :)

Be happy right now. Don't patch. Problem solved, right? I mean, that's what happened in JO. Everyone played the patch they liked the results of. That worked out fine. I mean, we've got the sequel don't we?

However, you're obviously not a "typical casual gamer" so in the future, don't attempt to pass yourself off as such. It's a poor attempt to insult our intelligence. Just represent your opinion and nothing more.

=X=Master HeX
09-22-2003, 07:01 PM
First off... The only way to satisfy all parties is to give them each settings that can be changed the way THEY like it. This will draw competitive players to servers where there are not 20min standoffs between teams or duelists... RPG and fanboys to servers with flashy saber fights and emotes... and the casual gamer to all of the above.

Second, there is no need to throw punches in a forum over these issues. It seems right now that the FF/SO CTF community is a little upset on the baseja. It also seems that there is a growing number of people complaining about default hit detection and saber damage.


On another note I sort of looked into how blocking works a bit in JA and why people are complaining that they arn't blocking. If you notice there is a large bug in saber blocking on an idle character. As far as I can tell if you stand at a certain distance the blocking character won't even respons to attacks. There is also issues with hit detection on characters ducking. Major issues that should be looked into in the next version.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by =X=Master HeX
First off... The only way to satisfy all parties is to give them each settings that can be changed the way THEY like it. This will draw competitive players to servers where there are not 20min standoffs between teams or duelists... RPG and fanboys to servers with flashy saber fights and emotes... and the casual gamer to all of the above.

Second, there is no need to throw punches in a forum over these issues. It seems right now that the FF/SO CTF community is a little upset on the baseja. It also seems that there is a growing number of people complaining about default hit detection and saber damage.


On another note I sort of looked into how blocking works a bit in JA and why people are complaining that they arn't blocking. If you notice there is a large bug in saber blocking on an idle character. As far as I can tell if you stand at a certain distance the blocking character won't even respons to attacks. There is also issues with hit detection on characters ducking. Major issues that should be looked into in the next version.

Just curious but does ghoul2 make any difference in your tests?

Actually is it even ghoul2 this time around or something new?

Reason I ask is back in Jedi Outcast it had some interesting results (to say the least) when enabled.

=X=Master HeX
09-22-2003, 07:43 PM
I believe it's totally ghoul2 related. It's poor code that causes your saber to pass through someone without doing any damage. Same reason why if someone ducks and swings they don't end up headless if you pass a red swing through their head. It needs work, which we should see in the next patch or two.

Spazz
09-22-2003, 07:56 PM
Um...I hate to say it...but I kinda like MP in JKA. I totally agree with Weiner Dog here, but there is a simple solution:

MODDERS, YOUR TIME IS NOW!!

Seriously, if we get some good mods up in here to make the game a little more like JKII in terms of damage and insta-kill moves, but keep the new stances, maps, player models, and other great things in JKA, we could be looking at a GREAT MP experience. Unfortunately...I cant mod. At all. Period. I tried once...but ended up screwing my JKII file so much that i had to re-install the game...so perhaps some pro modders should take this one :D If modders can make great mods like ForceModII and JediMod, then why not JKA? And if THAT doesnt work...at least we all still have our copies of JKII :p
:duel: