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CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 06:19 AM
We need kick back, and I know there is the one foot kick with dual sided lightsaber, but that's mainly a dueling technique. Kick as in the same kick that's still in JK2,was a major part of saber only ctf. I know loads of you think it was cheap and too easy to kill people that way, but in jedi academy, it's almost impossible to return the flag. rolling is terrible, it actually makes you go slower?! that's crap and it needs patching. I also think dfa shouldn't cost force to do. That super kata attack, sure that should cost force. But Single saber dfa, no way. What force does it look like is being used there? your not jumpiing high, just forward and swinging your saber. One last thing, I know lots of people are behind me on getting kick back and the other problems I mentioned here fixed. But there are lots against me as well. So I think to make everyone happy, kick and the cost of force to do moves, should be console options. That way if someone is running a server and they don't want kick they can turn it off. Same goes for the cost of force. Well that's all I really have to say. Take it as you will.

Master DarkStar
09-20-2003, 06:21 AM
I don't think they should add front kick back... way to abusive. I do think they should add sidekick to all saber styles but with reduced damage (say 10HP instead of 20).

Bacon00
09-20-2003, 06:24 AM
God no... the front kick thing SUCKED. There'd be 3 people attacking you, and you'd get kicked down... get up, get kicked by somebody else, get up, get kicked by somebody else, then sabered by a 4th person. It wasn't any fun... just frustrating.

CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 06:24 AM
now your not understanding what I was saying. I was saying it should be an option. The admin makes the decision on how much damage kicks do, and whether it's there at all.

Bacon00
09-20-2003, 06:28 AM
It's not the damage as much as it's the getting knocked down and being defensless thing. I guess that w/ the new moves for getting up (where you can kick the crap out of the guy that knocked you down just by getting up) it wouldn't be as cheesy, but then nobody would ever saber each other because you'd just keep kicking each other in an endless circle of KICKING!!!

CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 06:31 AM
your still not getting the point. I said kick should be an "option" in console. meaning it doesn't have to be in your server. jeez, read my post b4 complaining.

[div3rse.syn]
09-20-2003, 06:32 AM
you know what...maybe kick should do less damage...maybe you should get knocked down less frequently...but it NEEDS TO BE THERE. Why? Because in CTF, the capper moves...and a good capper moves FAST. There's simply no way to slow down the capper in JKA at all...nor is there anyway to kick them off a ledge...so CTF has been shat on. Also, knocking someone down to saber them was one of the few options you had besides randomly swinging your saber in jk2...and now in JKA, you can't touch someone with your saber...you can't bring their health down with kicks...you can't knock them down...and they can just drain back any miniscule damage you manage to do to them...it's a crock of ****. Sure, noobs are happy as a pig in ****...they can't be owned by anyone because there's no skill involved. But what does it matter? Noobs play in public servers with no competition, but there's nothing to attach to in this game...nothing for Clans to attach to, nothing for leagues to attach to...and that's sad.

To all you people who say "well I don't play competitively so I don't want these changes to happen" - well thats all well and good. But for those of us who DO, these changes make it POSSIBLE for us to play competively, and honestly, don't really change the game for you at all. Whether or not kick is in the game...noobs won't notice...but anyone with skill will notice.

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 06:49 AM
your still not getting the point. I said kick should be an "option" in console. meaning it doesn't have to be in your server. jeez, read my post b4 complaining.How about reading their posts as well? Doesn't matter if it is a server option, what they're saying is kick in general is cheap, if a server admin decides to enable it that server will most likely loose a lot of the players who hate kick; once you give that "kind of power" to server admins you give people choices which basically helps split them up, if the option is never there, no-one can complain about servers - do you REALLY want your game ruined by the guy or two that hates kick but stays on the server to constantly complain about it? And before you say "We'll just 'kick' him :D", what if voting is disabled and there is no admin in site?

To be honest I'm totally neutral to the whole kick thing, I don't care if it's in or not, I loved JO, I love JA, the game is important to me, far more important than the amount of complaints the community is capable of coming up with! And lets face it, together all the complaints in this board alone are like listening to grandparents saying "ooooh it wasn't like that back in the day". Do some of you still not get it? This may be the sequal to JO but it ISN'T JO. Did you play Dark Forces? Was that the same as JO? Did you complain as much then? Be happy Raven is such a community loving company that creates some great games.

[div3rse.jello]
09-20-2003, 06:54 AM
loosing playres that hate kick ..

haha good then all the noobs would be gone

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 07:01 AM
Oh look complaint again, but now we're calling people names! I've said this before, I'll say it again, just because someone has a different POV to you, why do they automatically become n00bs? Have you ever thought you might be the person who's wrong and they're right? Or worse still, and heaven forbid, neither of you are wrong and just have different playing styles? :eek: - Then let's not forget, new game, new to everyone, n00b is the last word you could possibly use now!

[div3rse.jello]
09-20-2003, 07:25 AM
if you were following anything in this topic you would have known "hating kick" would refer to JO ..NOT JA...since there is no kick at all.

n00b.. as you like to say

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 07:30 AM
As I like to say? You're the guy who's posted two posts in this thread about skilled players and n00bs.
Kick as in the same kick that's still in JK2,was a major part of saber only ctf I dunno man...I'd say that pretty much means we're talking the lack of kick in JA and wanting it back, so what did you mean?

I just hear complaints because what you consider to giving you an advantage has now been taken away and you're not happy that these people you call n00bs are now starting from the same groundstone as you.

CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 12:22 PM
Ahem. Kicking was part of the game. I don't care if some people think it's cheap. I've certainly heard enough of the whiners saying it was unblockable/unavoidable. The general CTF Saber only world ALL use kick a lot. You see, we don't like running around slashing while someone else tries to slow down the fc. That doesn't generally work overly well. Now you explain this to me. MY idea, for the console options gives people a choice. Your idea however, is you think it should be gone. Now you tell me which sounds more fair...You have a choice to kick? Or it's just gone and people who enjoyed kicking will not be able to do it again?

Personally, I think my idea sounds a little more fair. Gives you a choice. Oh and if someone comes in a server i'm in and starts complaining non stop about kick, I wouldn't care. I like to laugh at people like that. Besides, if you beat them enough timeds they'll leave. =)

P.S. Dark forces was garbage. Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, crap too. JO a major improvement. All you did in jk 1 was slash saber and pull. Unless u played with guns.

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 12:48 PM
Like I said, I don't care if kick is there or not, if they put it in, cool I'll use it, if they don't, I'll find some other way of getting people.

Your idea sounds great...in a perfect gaming world, however as the mass of complaint threads in this one forum alone show, it's far from perfect. I'd love for all things to be optional and set via the server, however gamers are too split...how about expanding on your idea, not only is it server configurable, but voteable as well - that way the majority vote wins, if more people want it enabled, it's on, if more people want it disabled, it's off. One thing you can never argue with as being unfare is a democratic vote - majority rules!

SlapNut
09-20-2003, 01:36 PM
what r ya talking about? i never used kick, and its not a huge part, but this new one with the staff looks awsome

Agen
09-20-2003, 01:38 PM
mmmmmm.... it's gone... adapt. This aint JK2.

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
mmmmmm.... it's gone... adapt. This aint JK2. Many of us have tried explaining that, but all these supposed l33t players are having none of it, their l33t status means they have every right to say "this isn't here and it damn well should be!".

Mordred
09-20-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]
play in public servers with no competition, but there's nothing to attach to in this game...nothing for Clans to attach to.

man why is it claners think they are so go damn good, because they have some crappy tag on thier name, anyone cant start a clan, u dont have to be good, which show because claners get owned on public servers all the time.

just because we dont want to be part of a clan and play on a public server does not make us noobs or crap.

nor does being in a clan make you good.

it people with attitudes like that always put me off joining a clan

JaledDur
09-20-2003, 02:22 PM
I think sidekick should be there. I have seen a few posts saying that they didnt like kick because they were defenseless on the ground -- that is not the case now. If you are kicked you can immediately jump ack up kicking your attacker, or jump backwards and fly away, or roll side to side.

Comm539
09-20-2003, 02:23 PM
For crying out loud. You people are so single minded over your own POV.
Kill a flag carrier who:

wants to avoid being killed

has infinite force from an energizer to constantly speed away

needs to be killed quickly before a healer arrives (you obviously have to stop him first and since theres no longer a way to do that, this point is barely ever reached).


Ways to stop him:
Pull whorage: He obvioulsy has absorb, meaning you power him up so he speeds off and your left with no force and your saber between your legs.


Thats the only way in JA to stop an fc and every member of the ctf community has stated the same: It doesn't work and ctf is stalemating to 60+ mins.

The suggestion is that kicking and other features are togglable. If you don't like them, keep them off, ctf servers will have them on. It doesn't affect your gameplay (which is obvious all those against don't play ctf, because they haven't got a clue what they're talking about), whilst ctf community gets what they want. I don't understand any argument against a toggleable feature ability.

Your next post will probably say: 'Stay in JO then'
This is a sequel, better graphics, bigger community, new maps and a few new features. We want the old feautres aswell (toggleable).

Spider AL
09-20-2003, 02:28 PM
it people with attitudes like that always put me off joining a clanPeople with attitudes are everywhere, including in clans, and outside clans.

Noobs play in public servers with no competition, but there's nothing to attach to in this game...nothing for Clans to attach to, nothing for leagues to attach to...and that's sadI've run [FW] since 1999 when we played JK, I've been a successful competitive player in the two games throughout that time, and this game looks ideally suited to all sensible players, clanners and esportsmen. And me.

CaptainJackZ, you say kick was part of the game. It was. No, it was not cheap. Kick was part of the game, and anyone who thinks it was cheap should just suck it up and live with it.

Now, kick is not a part of JA. Suck it up, live with it, don't be a hypocrite.

If you were truly a serious player, you'd spend your time adapting to the game, instead of whingeing on here. There are many things I would have liked to be kept from JO... and JK, before it. They weren't kept. I don't complain, because... shock horror, they're different games.

To all you people who say "well I don't play competitively so I don't want these changes to happen" - well thats all well and good. But for those of us who DO, these changes make it POSSIBLE for us to play competively, and honestly, don't really change the game for you at all. Whether or not kick is in the game...noobs won't notice...but anyone with skill will notice.Serious players... Anyone with skill, that is,.. such people discover and create tactics. I'm sure you agree, and I'm sure you'll find a replacement for kick one of these days.

And anyone who uses the word "noob" the way you do, deserves to be stabbed in the foot, by the way. :rolleyes:

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 02:34 PM
Spider AL, I'm glad to see people like you :)

Rockstar
09-20-2003, 02:34 PM
bah all this complaining!!

who cares!! live around it! those who are despirate to get kicks back were probably just crappy kick lamers that now have to rely on their lightsaber skills (which = their ownage) :p

stop whinging! boohoo, ONE game mode is disadvantaged, when many argue that the removal of the standard kicks has been great for the lightsaber fights in other game modes

instead of preying for a modder just get good at the game like everyone else :)

Comm539
09-20-2003, 02:34 PM
Please this isn't about someone crying because they won't learn a new game. JA is the same as JO, they added a kata and took out a load of stuff. Any JO player can learn it in all of 30 seconds. But this isn't the point. I ask you why ALL of the ctf community is saying the same. This reason:

For crying out loud. You people are so single minded over your own POV.
Kill a flag carrier who:

wants to avoid being killed

has infinite force from an energizer to constantly speed away

needs to be killed quickly before a healer arrives (you obviously have to stop him first and since theres no longer a way to do that, this point is barely ever reached).


Ways to stop him:
Pull whorage: He obvioulsy has absorb, meaning you power him up so he speeds off and your left with no force and your saber between your legs.


Thats the only way in JA to stop an fc and every member of the ctf community has stated the same: It doesn't work and ctf is stalemating to 60+ mins.



I also think its fair to add toggleable kicks in JA:

The suggestion is that kicking and other features are togglable. If you don't like them, keep them off, ctf servers will have them on. It doesn't affect your gameplay (which is obvious all those against don't play ctf, because they haven't got a clue what they're talking about), whilst ctf community gets what they want. I don't understand any argument against a toggleable feature ability.

Your next post will probably say: 'Stay in JO then'
This is a sequel, better graphics, bigger community, new maps and a few new features. We want the old feautres aswell (toggleable).

Your blinded by your own ignorance. Imagine this hyperthetical situation:

Raven removes blue and yellow styles

Ctf is fine, we use red nearly always. Duel community cries. We turn round and say 'learn the game'. I don't see it. Your game modes are fine, we want a patch to help ours that doesn't affect your mode at all. Why are you so terminally selfish not to accept this? May I add, that some of the best ctf players are also the best duelers.

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 02:38 PM
JO is the same as EF, EF is the same as Q3, engine and basics speaking, doesn't mean they all have to have the same stuff do they? The facts are simple, this game is a sequal, you've gained some new stuff, you've lost some old stuff, why go on and on in page after page of posts in these forums with what you want "back" and what you want gone? I say "back" because you haven't lost them in the first place, this not being JO and all...:rolleyes:

When the code is out and people can mod, let them, just for now, deal with having to learn new techniques, this game will have been beta tested and people who are paid to play games will have found it to work well, probably because they hadn't played JO before so learnt techniques for JA from scratch instead of trying all their old stuff then being baffled when it works no more.

When will you lot listen to the simple fact THIS IS NOT JO!

Your blinded by your own ignorance. Imagine this hyperthetical situation:

Raven removes blue and yellow styles

Ctf is fine, we use red nearly always. Duel community cries. We turn round and say 'learn the game'. I don't see it. Your game modes are fine, we want a patch to help ours that doesn't affect your mode at all. Why are you so terminally selfish not to accept this? May I add, that some of the best ctf players are also the best duelers.
Hello? Why would they remove that now? It's in the game so will stay in the game. The JO kicks were never in the JA code so you haven't had them removed! Raven decided these things to bring variety into the game, you've been force to learn new techniques and instead you've resorted to complaining about it. That is a very poor example.

skywalker19
09-20-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
mmmmmm.... it's gone... adapt. This aint JK2.

correctamundo! time to move on people :)

Comm539
09-20-2003, 02:42 PM
omg. gk, pk, k, ptk, gripkick, roll, strafe jump, weak sabers. This is whats taken out.

Added:
Duel sabers (spamming for noobs)
saber staff (available in JO)
kata (only a fool would walk into, definately not an fc)

Thats whats added. Any JO player can learn this is 30 seconds. All other feautures were in JO and if they were effective in ctf, we would have already used them. So you see, nothing new to leran and all ways to kill an fc gone.
You obviously haven't got a clue about how s/o ctf is run, so please don't interfer. It doesn't concern you. What we ask for equally won't affect your game mode. In short, but out.

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 02:45 PM
So you see, nothing new to leran and all ways to kill an fc gone.
You don't understand do you? All YOUR ways to kill an fc are gone, you just can't hack having to learn new techniques all over again.

All these posts come down to the"l33t" being forced to start over again with a new learning curve. And your only arguments against this are "there is nothing to learn"...please, yes there is, you're just happier to deny it and demand JO back...

You do realise basically what you're asking for is JA in the style of JO...i.e. JO again just looking better. THAT is why people keep using "go back to JO" because that's basically what you're asking for!

Spider AL
09-20-2003, 02:45 PM
Please this isn't about someone crying because they won't learn a new game. JA is the same as JO, they added a kata and took out a load of stuff. Any JO player can learn it in all of 30 seconds. But this isn't the point. I ask you why ALL of the ctf community is saying the same. This reason:Firstly I love the way people like you declare themselves to be the spokespeople for the entire CTF community. Well I'm part of the fraggin' CTF community, and you sure as poo don't speak for ME.

Secondly, I very much doubt anyone's interested in hearing the old "THIS IS NOT A NEW GAME THIS IS JO IT SHULD BE CALLED A MOD" nonsense. It's a new game, live with it.

For crying out loud. You people are so single minded over your own POV.Irony is just a transition metal with a semivowel on the end to you, isn't it.

Where's the fellow who says "pot to kettle: 'You're black.'" when you need him...

Ways to stop him:Make up some new ones.

Your blinded by your own ignorance. Imagine this hyperthetical situation:

Raven removes blue and yellow styles

Ctf is fine, we use red nearly always. Duel community cries.Guhh, SO many duellists only ever used red... your example is like your argument.

CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 02:51 PM
We never said we spoke for the entire ctf community. Only ctf saber only. Ur probably a gunner so u must love this new game. All the maps are designed for gunners too. But I don't really care about that. It's new maps new maps are good. But ur still not realizing the point. There is no new strategy to learn to kill the fc. u simply can't. u can't even rage dfa anymore, thx to dfa costing force. A person who is capper is invincible. UNless they're a complete moron and jump constantly over gaps with no absorb on, or they're on the dark side.

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 02:53 PM
There is no new strategy to learn to kill the fc. u simply can't. u can't even rage dfa anymore, thx to dfa costing force. A person who is capper is invincible

Yes there is, it's just NEW and because you don't know it yet, you're frustrated and so complain about it instead. Something as bad as that would have been picked up during internal and beta testing, cuz invulnerability is a very bad thing.

Comm539
09-20-2003, 02:57 PM
Why is the entire ctf community saying the same thing. Fine you might kill an fc who hasn't a clue what he's doing, but for a clan matcxh, an fc who knows what to do, he is now impossible to kill. This isn't a question of learning new things, because there is none.
Granted new saber swings, but take away the ways to stop the fc from running away in the first place and these swings become pointless in ctf. Remeber the fc wants to survive at all costs. He won't fight you, he'll run, have a healer, and infinite force. There are no longer ways to counter this.

WadeV1589
09-20-2003, 03:00 PM
This isn't a question of learning new things, because there is none.There are no longer ways to counter this.

I'm still willing to wager it's all the "l33t" not being able to find ways yet and so complaining prematurely, hell all this started the day it was released! Less than one week and you've all officially declared the carrier invulnerable....could become a new saying around here "the kickin l33t become the cryin n00bs" - has a ring to it :rolleyes:

CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 03:05 PM
ok smart ass, u find a way to kill the fc in JA. I've seen matches go on for 60 min 0-0. So if your so brilliant u go and find a way to kill the fc.

Comm539
09-20-2003, 03:06 PM
I've played 3 games of unorganised, public ctf (with fc's who ar,for want of a better word, noobs. They hadn't a clue what to do). All games lasted in excess of 45 mins (one was 66mins), tied at 0-0. All 3 games finished because the fc left.
Imgaine what it'll be like with organised ctf teams ie. clan match.
You don't play s/o ctf or are new to it, its evident from your posts. This is the entire s/o ctf community saying the same thing. All other JO ways have been tried and failed (which is why we don't use them). The new kata is obviously a failure as prestated. No new ways to stop /slow an fc. Its not about new things to learn, its about no new things to learn, and old things aen out.

We just want a patch enabling togglable feautres like kicks. This way, it won't concern you or other game modes.

Spider AL
09-20-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by CaptainJackZ:

We never said we spoke for the entire ctf community.Wrong. Look:

Originally posted by Comm539:

I ask you why ALL of the ctf community is saying the same. This reason:Jackz, Get your facts straight, if you have any.

Originally posted by CaptainJackZ:

Ur probably a gunner so u must love this new game. All the maps are designed for gunners too. But I don't really care about that.I play all game modes, but CTF without guns has always been a favourite of mine... as comic relief. And yes I do love this new game. I'm glad you don't like it. I hope it upsets you greatly. :D May the same fate befall all whiners.

Originally posted by CaptainJackZ:

ok smart ass, u find a way to kill the fc in JA. I've seen matches go on for 60 min 0-0. So if your so brilliant u go and find a way to kill the fc.Wahaha, he's not the one whining about it. It's your game mode, it's your complaint. Do your goldarned research before you come crying to the LF about it. You go and find it. You be the hero to all the poor put upon sabres-only CTFers...

Snnzxxxxx...

Originally posted by Comm539:

Its not about new things to learn, its about no new things to learn, and old things aen out.Ah, there you have it then. There are no new things to learn. Straight from the horse's mouth. Anyone want a pizza? I want a pizza.

Originally posted by Comm539:

We just want a patch enabling togglable feautres like kicks. This way, it won't concern you or other game modes.People like you always want a patch for one thing or another. If you spent half as much time playing the game as you did brooding about how Raven won't give you the hundreds of patches you want every five minutes, why... you'd probably be a REAL Jedi. Levitate your mouse for me, go on! :D

Kusanavi
09-20-2003, 03:46 PM
Good job Raven! (no sarcasm) I was tired of the spammage with kicks for example the grip + kick "ability" it was spammed way too much in servers.

JaledDur
09-20-2003, 03:57 PM
You should all try to stop bitching. All you are doing now is attacking each other. WTF is that? Get a damn clue. If someone says there is a problem, prove they are wrong succinctly and be done with it.

CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 04:53 PM
Spider,

Maybe you never learned to count, but I only see one patch requested there. :rolleyes:

Comm539
09-20-2003, 05:17 PM
Again, people who know nothing about s/o ctf, or the ones who pretend they do, please go away.
Explain:

How to stop an fc in JA s/o ctf (for the benefit of the people who read this post even though it doesn't concern you, fc = flagcarrier. Remember, a guy who has infinite force, speeds away, won't fight and has a healer)


In short, there isn't a way. You could kick them, pull throw kick them, grip kick them, dfa them, rage dfa them, strafe alongside them, roll to them. Only ways. All gone. Rephrasing, all of the s/o proffesional ctf community (not the guy "I played ctf once one day so i'm the community) wants the features reintroduced. They could be toggleable, so it won't effect any other gamemode. I really miss why you are arguing against this.

Finally, instead of flaming saying 'learn some skill', i invite you to explain how to kill this guy. I hope you can be as enlightening as the other suggestions of "shoot him" or "send three people after him"

Jedith
09-20-2003, 05:20 PM
Kicking is there to diverse the tactics. If someone is abusing it, go find a server where people use everything given to them. Stop complaining. Go start up your own server and do it.

SITH_ShadowCat
09-20-2003, 05:55 PM
Christ people, the game has only been out for several days and you say there is nothing to learn. There is always a way. Back in AvP2 the way to take out cloaked campers was tracking rockets, it took about a year for every one to figure this out but it paid off. No this, if this was an expantion pack then you could complain about thigns being take out. If you can't stand the CTF server go play duel or whatever, or even better: go play JO, nothing was taken out of that? Just because Academy came out doesn't mean you can't play JO. You said it your self that nothing changed, so why are you here complaining when you could be playing JO were there is no "usless katas", "spamming duel sabers", and the best part is you have your beloved kick. Instead of going on for 3 pages complaing about stupid things, you could go do something worth while, like ride a bike with your friends (if you have any).

Kurgan
09-20-2003, 07:42 PM
There's a lot of posts in this thread, so you'll forgive me, but there are two types of "kicks" in JA right now...

"Staff style" kicks which work when jumping or standing, etc. These are usable in MP for non-staff users if you enable g_debugmelee 1. Switch to fists (melee) instead of your saber (set saber attack to 0 force points in your profile, or else pick a non-Jedi class in Siege). Now you can kick the same as staff.

However, the classic JK2 style "flip kicks" seem to be carefully hidden (if they are still in the game). If you use g_debugmelee 1 in SP, they work perfectly, just like JK2 MP (just make sure you have level 2 force jump, then switch to saber or melee to use them).

But in MP they don't seem to be there. We'll keep looking though...

In the end, I don't think it would be hard at all to make a mod that adds them back in. Some people would hate it, others love it, but that's the beauty of mods.

Comm539
09-20-2003, 07:55 PM
We're not just complaining, we are asking for the features to be toggleable in a patch. We move to JA becuase of better graphics, new maps and bigger community. No one said some new stuff in JA is no good, we just want the new stuff, in addition to the old stuff for our gametype (otherwise its unplayable).
The idea of a mod is already under way, but they have to wait for the sdk, then make the mod and even then, another mod may be released and competitions and ladders are divided over which mod.
I'm sure i heard they were in the beta, so surely raven can add the features as cvar toggleable, that way making it 'official'.

btw, I got teh friends, just not teh bike :(

CaptainJackZ
09-20-2003, 08:34 PM
I didn't know you could kick in sp now. Thx Kurg =) But if it's that simple to do for sp why not do the same for mp?

Kurgan
09-20-2003, 08:34 PM
I would like to warn everybody here to lay off the flaming and personal attacks (yes, that includes labelling other people on here "n00bs" for disagreeing with you).

For ME, it isn't such a big issue, because I prefer to use every weapon in CTF (and yes, that includes full force and sabers).

Having trouble killing the capper? Try this... g_saberdamagescale 3.

Now sabers do 3 Times the Damage they do in duels!

The part about "dividing the community" is irrelevant.

If it's a mod, it will divide between the people who use it and the people who don't.

If it's a server option built into the game, it will divide between those who use it and those who don't.

If it's in a patch, it will divide between those who use the patch and those who don't.

Etc.

If it's in the game, people will complain and want it removed.

If it's not in the game, people will complain and want it added in.

Raven obviously felt this is the way to balance the game.

I have a feeling (they can correct me if I'm wrong, as I very well could be) seems to favor certain gametypes.

For example, they favor 3rd person view for sabers, which is why they didn't bother with a transparent skin for first person sabers.

They favor Dueling with sabers only (which is why they only give you the option to use a blaster pistol as an alternate weapon, rather than everything like in JK2).

And I may be going out on a limb here, but they seem to favor CTF with guns or Sabers+Guns, but not sabers only. So for them it probably didn't mean a whole lot to remove kicks.

Again, I am all in favor of it being added to the game as a server option either through a mod or a patch (unless it's already hidden there, and we just need to find it).

Dividing the community always happens in a game with tactics and options this diverse. You can't stop it, you just have to find what parts of the game are fun and use those. And if it's not fun for you, then go find yourself another game that is!

Seriously though, we can express our disagreements without flames. I encourage you all to try to be more understanding... (some of you are doing a fine job, but I think you know who you are).

Pyro
09-20-2003, 08:49 PM
yes i always hated kicking. only for noobs that can not learn how to learn the intrickercies of saber moves. hahaha you guys want to flip kick swift to the face but you don't realize that's not the movies like. why don't u go learn how to actually get some SKILL and then maybe u can kill the flag carrier hahahaha. you probably don't even know the new skins for darth maul or how to spin kata his double saber becuz all u care about is ur stupid lame cheat kicks (NOT IN THE MOVIES U NOOBIES). so what if saber ctf isn't good that game took no skill. i went to saber ctf one time and all they did was swift kick me to face down into holes now what kind of skill is that?!? i tell you, none skill, its just how fast u can press the jump button that's all. now, if u wanna learn some real skill go to ffa or duel server and learn the REAL game - that is, SABERS, like a JEDI KNIGHT, not some lame karate dude lololol. in short, stop complaining u whiners raven is 110% right to take out lame kicks so we can concentrate on our SKILLFUL saber swingers + heal when we get hit. my only complaint is that now the red dfa takes force to use, why make the most skillful moves in the game take force too use?!?!? at least now we can do more acrobatic moves like hang on to walls or run them up the walls that is so cool (like a real master of the force). honestly why complain about some stupid stuffs like kick when u get all those cool new things to do that make the saber battle so more IMPRESSIVE and AWESOME like a real jedi?

[fk]myth.
09-20-2003, 08:53 PM
I keep hearing "There's lots of ways to kill an FC!!"

Okay, here!

An FC has the flag and is a little ways in front of you with speed and absorb and an energizer behind him. What do you do?

Attack? Nope, he has speed and you are behind him.

Kata? Nope, because you lose 50 force which makes it more impossible to catch up.

Speed up and kick him off the platform? Nope because kick has been eliminated from the game for an odd reason.

Probobly because all you people whining about kick whoring. So tell me, what's new in this game that could stop an FC who's in front of you, running away (not fighting like a noob fc), with speed and absorb, and with an energizer. This is the STANDARD fc in ACTUAL MATCHES. So please, enlighten me.

BigFurryWhale
09-20-2003, 09:02 PM
lol myth, we keep asking this question and no one has replied other with things like "shoot him." "slow him down" "pull him into a hole" "send three people after him" "slash him" "kata him"


unfortunately, all of these things are either common practise (see "send three people after him") or would never work against a flag carrier who is not retarted.

SonGohanX
09-20-2003, 09:04 PM
If indeed the majority of the Saber only CTF community feels that there's no way to kill a flag carrier...then maybe a problem does exist. I don't see how everyone can discredit their complaints without presenting a solution.

Pyro: Impressive looking moves that resemble the movie do not = skill. Neither does swinging a saber and healing. Skill involves being able to defeat your opponent through whatever legal means necessary. Kicks were a part of JO, therefore they were not cheating.

I suggest this article.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

I'm not flaming...just trying to help.

Pyro
09-20-2003, 10:06 PM
LOL SonGohanX, it is oblivous that u do not now what REAL skill is anyway. all skilful player look good while they do it. some stupid kick no looks good looks nooby so it is nooby. legal? kicking is cheater (swift kicking to the faces) and too cheap 2 beat. no mater how much i skillful saber against stupid kick, i cant hit that = no skill stupid move. anyway, i'm thru talking 2 u newbie it oblivous that u guys only want lame stuffs in so u can win ez again hahahaha now raven realise people like me (skillful jedi) are whose opinion counts. HAHAHA NEWBIES!!!1111

ic0n
09-20-2003, 10:12 PM
"you get kicked down get up and another person kicks again"
kick them back. dont get knocked down. practise. get skill. dont give up cause you suck. or, go back to sp.

ic0n
09-20-2003, 10:13 PM
rofl pyro.
join /< now. feg.

SoulWraith
09-20-2003, 10:28 PM
I still think its funny how no one can answer the question on how to kill the fc in so ctf. Right now the way it is i can take 3 defenders and a capper againsts 12 players on the opposite team and the game would go on infinitely. I have been eagerly waiting for ja to come out for a long time and there are parts of the game i luv. The thing is the saber only mp side of the game is severly lacking. Alot of the new moves almost require your enemy to be stationary or to walk into the move. So any skilled player can easily avoid them completely. I want these options we have been discussing to be togglable also, it would be the easiest solution to the problem. People who dont like these options stay on servers they do like and i will do the same. I paid hard earn money for the game so if there are any suggestions that i can make to improve a part of the game i love to play then i have every right to do that. So please dont flame just post on ways to make it better kthx.

Comm539
09-20-2003, 10:42 PM
My favourite was "send three people after him." God damn it, why didn't we think of that.

Guardian Omega
09-20-2003, 10:52 PM
Holy wow, Pyro is the embodiment of the JO sterotype of rpg noob.......never thought I'd find them.

Good players dont look good when fighting all the time. Look at Wushu, what Jet Li knows. Now pair up Wushu up against a real COMBAT art, suddenly it flops.

Combos are found in combining aspects of a move with another. Grip makes people stationary, you can kick stationary people, ta da, GRIP KICK. As far as I can tell, the SO CTF community can't find combos. The only way I'm thinking is to make pull+slash an instant kill, if it even connects that is.

I'm all for the reintroduction of kick toggeable until there's something better. (Maybe make a weight penality on the flag or disable force taking on the specials that should been able to move?)

Spider AL
09-20-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by CaptainJackZ:

Spider,

Maybe you never learned to count, but I only see one patch requested there. :rolleyes:Maybe you never learned not to be so literal-minded, but... don't be so literal-minded.

Witty, aren't I. :cool:

Originally posted by Comm539:

Rephrasing, all of the s/o proffesional ctf community (not the guy "I played ctf once one day so i'm the community) wants the features reintroduced.Sigh. You're a professional now, are you? That's nice. Ever made any money playing the JK series of games? I have.

Okay, the time for total honesty is nigh. Repent all ye sabreists... I mean sinners:

The sabres only CTF community is like the roleplaying community. Nobody really knows why it exists, and even though the game ALLOWS one to roleplay, nobody really knows why roleplayers bother doing it, as it's so utterly, utterly pointless. Yes, I've played sabres-only CTF, more than once. I've played sabres-only NF CTF. That was amusing. And to be perfectly honest, anything that makes sabres-only CTF unplayable isn't the most pressing injustice in my book. I for one hope there are no patches forthcoming. And in the final analysis, there will always be a player fast enough to escape all his pursuers, kick or not. I certainly never lost a flag in any of the NG JO games I tried out. That wasn't because I was teh leet NG CTF flagrunner. That was because without ranged weapons it was only possible to stop the runner by getting close to him. That meant the runner only had to maintain distance, pursuers had to close it. Hence, runner = at a statistical advantage, similarly to the guns vs. sabres equation. That was one of the reasons I decided it was stupid. ;)

Possible solutions to your "problem":

Enforce a new code of honour!!!!11 The NG CTF code. Rule 1: no flag carrier may move more than twenty paces without duelling one of the pursuing retrievers honourably, to the death. Tee hee!

Form a human wall around and above the flag using the living forms of your players, thus denying the flag carrier! Stop the rot before it starts. :D

Lastly, ramp the sabre damage scale up on all the backwater NG CTF servers.

The last one was serious by the way. It may work, or not. :)

Master_Payne
09-20-2003, 11:27 PM
How to stop a FC in JA:

Player 1 do one of the following... grip him/ just roll or stand in front of him to make him slow 1 freaking second.

players 2 and 3 (maybe only player 2)... concusion him to death while saying: Absorb that!.

other options are trip mine him, detonate him, etc, you still can use rage + hit chains (DFA is still as useless as was on JO, wait is even more useless :P).

That's it play with weapons and the Merc players will have a total party.

Prime
09-20-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Master_Payne
How to stop a FC in JA:

Player 1 do one of the following... grip him/ just roll or stand in front of him to make him slow 1 freaking second.

players 2 and 3 (maybe only player 2)... concusion him to death while saying: Absorb that!.

other options are trip mine him, detonate him, etc, you still can use rage + hit chains (DFA is still as useless as was on JO, wait is even more useless :P).

That's it play with weapons and the Merc players will have a total party. They are talking about saber only CTF, not guns CTF.

Pyro
09-20-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Prime
They are talking about saber only CTF, not guns CTF.

LOL USE THE ROCKET LAUNCHER THEN NOOBIE

Prime
09-20-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Pyro
LOL USE THE ROCKET LAUNCHER THEN NOOBIE Don't tell that to me, I don't play CTF at all...

ic0n
09-20-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Guardian Omega
Holy wow, Pyro is the embodiment of the JO sterotype of rpg noob.......never thought I'd find them.

Good players dont look good when fighting all the time. Look at Wushu, what Jet Li knows. Now pair up Wushu up against a real COMBAT art, suddenly it flops.

Combos are found in combining aspects of a move with another. Grip makes people stationary, you can kick stationary people, ta da, GRIP KICK. As far as I can tell, the SO CTF community can't find combos. The only way I'm thinking is to make pull+slash an instant kill, if it even connects that is.

I'm all for the reintroduction of kick toggeable until there's something better. (Maybe make a weight penality on the flag or disable force taking on the specials that should been able to move?)
i almost shat myself when i saw that. hes joking. unless its a dif. pyro...

Guardian Omega
09-20-2003, 11:53 PM
Heheheh, after rereading the looking good part, I daresay you're right.

EDIT: Speaking of which, is the TE/TH combo still there?

ic0n
09-21-2003, 12:00 AM
keke

Pyro
09-21-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Guardian Omega
Holy wow, Pyro is the embodiment of the JO sterotype of rpg noob.......never thought I'd find them.

Good players dont look good when fighting all the time. Look at Wushu, what Jet Li knows. Now pair up Wushu up against a real COMBAT art, suddenly it flops.

Combos are found in combining aspects of a move with another. Grip makes people stationary, you can kick stationary people, ta da, GRIP KICK. As far as I can tell, the SO CTF community can't find combos. The only way I'm thinking is to make pull+slash an instant kill, if it even connects that is.

I'm all for the reintroduction of kick toggeable until there's something better. (Maybe make a weight penality on the flag or disable force taking on the specials that should been able to move?)

UR the noobie. why r u talking about jets and chinese things i mean about jedi KNIGHTS u dumb noobie. GRIP KICK? R U JOKING ME? that is for LAMERS and NOOBS!! it is oblivously a exploited moves that raven never ment 2 include it's cheating in my book and any other skillful player books. DUH ITS IMPOSIBLE TO GET OUT OF DUMMY SO = CHEAT! what r u guy talking about there ARE combos, like horizontal diagonal top slashes with red (YES I CAN DO THAT MANY TIME PERFECTLY) + swing right diagonal and then dfa (yes, you can dfa AFTER u swing but u prolly didnt know that newbie). you guys are dumb noobies if u cant kill each other, i just showed u 2 ways to combo and kill so stop making excuse so u can lame with the swift kick more.

Guardian Omega
09-21-2003, 01:53 AM
Yep he's definitely joking!:D

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Master_Payne
How to stop a FC in JA:

Player 1 do one of the following... grip him/ just roll or stand in front of him to make him slow 1 freaking second.

players 2 and 3 (maybe only player 2)... concusion him to death while saying: Absorb that!.

other options are trip mine him, detonate him, etc, you still can use rage + hit chains (DFA is still as useless as was on JO, wait is even more useless :P).

That's it play with weapons and the Merc players will have a total party.

Player 1 do the following: Grip him? he has absorb, if you knew anything about this game you would know, you cant grip with absorb...

Roll or just stand in front of him: what if he's in front of you? Are you going to pull an ultra kewl jedi movez0r1!!!!111oneone to get in front of him?

Players 2 and 3 cuncusion him to death? What don't you understand about the words saber and only?

Same thing for the 'other options'


The simple fact is without kick Saber Only CTF is dead in the water... and now we're back to square one. I'm still waiting for this 'other way' of killing a speeding, absorbing fc with an energizer?

Pyro
09-21-2003, 02:29 AM
fuggedaboutit let's go play frogger

SoulWraith
09-21-2003, 02:34 AM
Ok Mr. FC u stand there and let me do my red saber combo dfa omg MR. FC quit movin so i can hit ya with it. Mr. FC must be better and smarter than i am because he wont sit still while i hit him. Oh and another thing Mr. FC will u please stop running away so fast with my flag. There is no way for me to catch you and i cant kick u off the ledge anymore or knock u down so my teamates can kill you. I such a noob, sorry meant novice player oh sorry again meant to say padawan learner!!!

Sorry, the last thing i wanted to do is flame like the rest but i couldnt help it. Ok we will prove our point when my clans server changes over to ja shortly. I will take 4 vs 12 odds with each of us holding each others flag and show u that it will end in a tie with a 20min time limit. I am not trying to seem like an expert but it doesnt seem like any of u understand. Your tactics are too easily counterd and you will never return the flag the way the game is now. I am here for my complaint to be heard not to get in a shouting match. So i will not be posting here in the future unless i have some constructive input and i suggest the other flamers to do the same!

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 02:38 AM
I just played on an s/o ff game. Provided, noobs were in the game, lots of them, and returning was relitively easy (I pushed them off, they had no push force) But when a good fc got the flag, I ended up looknig like a dork speeding and whoring attack because, lets face it, that was the ONLY thing I can do. If things stay the way they are I forsee s/o CTF becoming the equivilant of CTY from JO.

Side
09-21-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by [fk]myth.
The simple fact is without kick Saber Only CTF is dead in the water... and now we're back to square one. I'm still waiting for this 'other way' of killing a speeding, absorbing fc with an energizer?

lemme make the question harder:

How do you kill a FC with protect on + 1...wait 2 energizer in SABER ONLY CAPTURE THE FLAG ???

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 03:16 AM
Side, its simple. you run around holding attack 1 and hope the FC's hp is already below 20 for some strange reason (maybe he fell :confused: ) and then hope that he slows down (maybe he doesn't know the way :confused: )

BloodRiot
09-21-2003, 03:47 AM
1st: if all the ways to kill a FC are gone..that must mean the saber is useless... play with gunz then.

2nd: FC is impossible to kill if he is a experienced gammer? so what? You can always get the enemy flag yourself... the door swings both ways.

In JO I upped the saber damage levels via cvars... it works good... makes saber a very good weapon in all situations cat close range.

Or go for the gunz isntead of saber...if it's a SaberOnly server.. fine look for another... you still want to play Saberonly then its you who are being the reluctant masoquist or something.

Like many others before me said... new game... new skills... learning all over again... fine by me.

JarJarBinks
09-21-2003, 03:52 AM
1st: if all the ways to kill a FC are gone..that must mean the saber is useless... play with gunz then.

They don't want to play with guns, you should know that by now.

2nd: FC is impossible to kill if he is a experienced gammer? so what? You can always get the enemy flag yourself... the door swings both ways.

Thats exactly the problem, both teams have the flags so nobody can cap and it becomes a stalemate.

In JO I upped the saber damage levels via cvars... it works good... makes saber a very good weapon in all situations cat close range.

It's not exactly their choice if they want to use the cvars or not, it's the servers choice.

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 03:55 AM
DENIED by jarjar

gg

Side
09-21-2003, 03:56 AM
so ur saying Raven should take off Saber only in ctf?
but saber only ctf isnt the only game type sucking
look at saber only full force duel it (well for me) almost worst than s/o ctf

but hey here my opinion(im not flaming any1 on this quote)

when i bought JK2 i was thinking "saber combat" and jk2 gave me mad pleasure,this is why im still playing jk2,ive tried jka and i seriously got pissed off playing this game,so dont give me crap like "stfu just dont play jka then" i got the right to post my opinion

but Saber in JKA is...u guys gotta admit PATHETIC

and anyway did u guys even tried to play s/o CTF on jka with team that know what their actualy doing?

BloodRiot
09-21-2003, 04:18 AM
Not flamming you either dude...

But if they knwo what they are doing it's cuz they invested time learning... and remember my last post.. the door swings both ways... it's not as if the players that land on red team have an advantage... both teams start as equals gamewise... playerwise... it's the story of the best man wins all over again... you can't blame the game for that.

Side
09-21-2003, 04:38 AM
ok see it that way:
in a match both team are good
both team know what their doing
just imagine a s/o CTF scrim in jka

U cant speed+rage and dfa
U cant kick the capper
u cant drain the capper till 0 force cuz he will get energized
u cant mind trick+katas cuz capper will be whoring protect or any capper with a brain will hear mind trick sound and turn on seing

the only way a s/o ctf scrim gonna end will be capper gonna get bored to death and one of em going to suicide
or the capper will fall somewhere accidently but even so there should be another capper waiting at enemy base for the flag to being returned
or someone will push a guy that performing a kata into the FC

bleh that all
P-s:Sorry for my grammar skill im very tired+english isnt my native language but u guys get the point

Ub3rGenius
09-21-2003, 04:43 AM
GRIP KICK? R U JOKING ME? that is for LAMERS and NOOBS!! it is oblivously a exploited moves that raven never ment 2 include it's cheating in my book and any other skillful player books. DUH ITS IMPOSIBLE TO GET OUT OF DUMMY SO = CHEAT!

Code blue code blue, we need a brain here stat!

lol. That sentence or whatever it is made me laugh so hard I nearly shat myself. :rofl:

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 04:45 AM
You know, I've been thinking. That illegal beta was floating around, and then Raven said that that was something like 6 builds ago... I wonder if they beta tested the latest build before they released it, and, if they did, did they beta test S/O CTF. I mean, when the teams are balanced and GOOD, the game will be 0-0 everytime. And 0-0 makes for no fun, which, what games are supposed to have... right?

skinnypoo
09-21-2003, 05:35 AM
i run 2 servers for our Clan... +POO+ Clan....we have been playing since day 1 of JK2...we feel kick should be an option that we can toggle on/off and it should be controlable....

There should be a "Kick Tracker" server side...that would use the following 5 variables to restrict Kick spam:

KickMax: Maximum number of consecutive kicks allowed variable

KickTime: Time frame in seconds that KickMax would be allowed

KickMinDamage: Minimum health damage a kick would perform

KickMaxDamage: Maximum health damage a kick would perform

KickPenalty: Penatly for Kick spammers


Example....

seta KickMax 3
seta KickTime 20
seta KickMinDamage 10
seta KickMaxDamage 25
seta KickPenalty 75

this would allow a player to perform 3 kick attacks within 20 seconds...and the damage of the kicks would be a range from 10-25 on the targets health.

any more request for kicks within that time would sap the kicker's force level by -75 and also just make the player run up to the target and just stop...kinda like runing into a wall...(since the force level of the kicker would be reduced the kicker couldnt perform a major attack also)


See...simple way to allow kicks and control kick spam.

:cool:

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 05:55 AM
the time thing sounds reasonable..as for the min max damage..it's already been done

i dont lilke the max number though

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by [fk]myth.
I just played on an s/o ff game. Provided, noobs were in the game, lots of them, and returning was relitively easy (I pushed them off, they had no push force) But when a good fc got the flag, I ended up looknig like a dork speeding and whoring attack because, lets face it, that was the ONLY thing I can do. If things stay the way they are I forsee s/o CTF becoming the equivilant of CTY from JO.

except for the fact that you could easily kill the fc...

[fk]mediablitz
09-21-2003, 06:21 AM
I think skinnypoo's suggestion is retarded. Go play some S/O CTF in JK2 and try to kill an FC without kicking. Unless you are a miraculous speed rager, it's not going to happen unless you totally luck out with a DFA.

[div3rse.syn]
09-21-2003, 06:41 AM
Here's what I don't get -

We (experienced) players get told that we whore kick - what happens? Raven takes kick out of the game :mad:

Now, opposite side of the spectrum: New players SPAM the saber moves like no other, looking like fools - and say they own us. What's raven do? Give them more moves. :mad:

Seriously - kick is needed. If saber damage was upped...and the blocking system tweaked...and this and that, etc. <--- too much work. Not worth it. I'm not even saying you have to add KICK, per say, just SOME way to SLOW a FC down AND a way to KILL the sucker once you're near him. In JKO, the major problem is catching up with a FC so that you could swing/kick/throw some damage their way. The way to do it was to kick them, or to rage/speed dfa them. In JKA, first, you can't keep up with them (no kick). You can't get ahead of them (no rage/speed). Even if by SOME miracle you manage to get close with them...nobody is gonna walk into kata's. The chances of that happening are slimmer than a JKO capper running into a DFA.

For all of those ignorant, arrogant, little punks that said we should grow up and learn the game - Guess what...we spent our 50 bucks too, and as such we get to voice our opinions as you do. We're not going to go away because you say we're whining. You certaintly didn't, and look what happened to JKO (1.2 to 1.3 to 1.4). Changes happen. This time, the competitive people aren't keeping their mouths shut. Your turn to take the hit because Raven overcorrected. It happens sometimes. Also, there actually isn't anything to learn in this game. I've learned every kata in every stance, I've learned the staff kicks, the roll stab, etc. None of them are usefull in ff s/o duels or ctf. Simple. Don't believe me? Gimme a server IP and I'll prove it to you.

Oh, and to the shmuck who said we were cocky or whatever and asked if we won money for the game - [div3rse] clan did. And to those who said "being in a clan doesn't make you good". You're right. Practicing this game with a team that knows what I'm capable of and I know what to expect from DOES make me better than you. Why? I put the time in. If you did you would become better too, but you didn't. So stop talking like you know what the deal is. You don't.

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 06:54 AM
Don't worry, as soon as the SDK is released there's going to be people on the job, garanteed.

The problem is that we need this crap fixed yesterday.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:55 AM
lol you learned to push 2 buttons at the same time. j/p bro.

tho it is better than what most people do, just holding down mouse1.... :rolleyes:

Rumor
09-21-2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by JaledDur
Don't worry, as soon as the SDK is released there's going to be people on the job, garanteed.

The problem is that we need this crap fixed yesterday.

the kaoticz mod team (not the gaming team) are definitely going to, and so is xmod. we would just like the ability to not HAVE to mod it, because 99% of people will just go for the mods that add in abusive admin powers and more emotes...

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
the kaoticz mod team (not the gaming team) are definitely going to, and so is xmod. we would just like the ability to not HAVE to mod it, because 99% of people will just go for the mods that add in abusive admin powers and more emotes...

And that sure as hell is the truth. And I don't know how to get around it other than bundling in that functionality with our mods. Whcih...sucks... but if its the only way to get it adopted...

Oh and I want to help anyone in any way I can to fix this game. I dont do skins or models or maps, but I can code in Java and C, so between the two C++ shouldn't be much of a leap. More of...a short hop. :)

blahbert
09-21-2003, 07:24 AM
I realize my opinion will probably be ignored, but I'd like to humbly suggest the following which I think would be a good compromise and make me PARTICULARLY happy:

Bring back kick, but with *0* damage. Jump kicks could be used for strategic purposes (knocking people down, luring people close to a ledge and kicking them off) but wouldn't serve any purpose if spammed.

I'd like to see kick remain a STRATEGIC option but not an abusable part of the game. I frequently used kick in FFA server duels where it does no damage, and was never bothered by the fact that didn't do damage -- as that was not really my purpose.


Lightstaff-style kicks would still do normal damage.

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 07:28 AM
Was already an option in JediMod (or one of its derivatives, I dont remember) and it worked well.

Jah Warrior
09-21-2003, 09:47 AM
right well let's dispell a myth here and now.

Being able to kick all the time and kill people laying on the floor did NOT make you a "skilled" player in JK2, What it did do is it made you a lazy player that was exploiting a weakness in the games coding.

The Jedi Knight series of games should be about saber skills not kung fu!

Wanna kick buy a PS2 and Tekken...:rolleyes:

Jah Warrior
09-21-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by JaledDur
Was already an option in JediMod (or one of its derivatives, I dont remember) and it worked well.

duel se

Spider AL
09-21-2003, 10:16 AM
I'm not even saying you have to add KICK, per say, just SOME way to SLOW a FC down AND a way to KILL the sucker once you're near him.Is that all? Mod it. Anyone who picks up the flag = 65% running speed. Adjust to suit. Tired of whining for a patch.

We (experienced) players get told that we whore kick - what happens? Raven takes kick out of the game

Now, opposite side of the spectrum: New players SPAM the saber moves like no other, looking like fools - and say they own us. What's raven do? Give them more moves.Sorry, what are you saying? Are you saying that whoring kick is in some way better than spamming sabre moves?

I used to whore kick in JA. I'm not ashamed of that. It won me many a point, and that after all is the aim of the game. I'm only interested in winning. So if spamming the sabre moves wins, that's what the order of the day is. But I'm never going to be a snob and declare that the way I used to spam is better than the way I'm spamming now, or vice-versa. It's all code.

Oh, and to the shmuck who said we were cocky or whatever and asked if we won money for the game - [div3rse] clan did.That was me, and I was asking Comm539 specifically, which you'd know if you bothered to read the thread properly... schmuck.

I'm curious. (And this question IS directed towards the masses...)Do you go out buying games like Grand Theft Auto and complain that sabre-only CTF is rubbish and should be patched in? Just because you enjoyed the game mode in JO, doesn't mean you would in JA, as you've subsequently discovered. Different game, don't you know. Go back to JO.

The Jedi Knight series of games should be about saber skills not kung fu!Don't start that, you're as bad as they are. The game is about whatever it's about! I wish everyone would stop trying to warp every single game with "Jedi" in its title into their own personal idea of teh leet mod.

Comm539
09-21-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Is that all? Mod it. Anyone who picks up the flag = 65% running speed. Adjust to suit. Tired of whining for a patch.

Sorry, what are you saying? Are you saying that whoring kick is in some way better than spamming sabre moves?

I used to whore kick in JA. I'm not ashamed of that. It won me many a point, and that after all is the aim of the game. I'm only interested in winning. So if spamming the sabre moves wins, that's what the order of the day is. But I'm never going to be a snob and declare that the way I used to spam is better than the way I'm spamming now, or vice-versa. It's all code.

That was me, and I was asking Comm539 specifically, which you'd know if you bothered to read the thread properly... schmuck.

I'm curious. (And this question IS directed towards the masses...)Do you go out buying games like Grand Theft Auto and complain that sabre-only CTF is rubbish and should be patched in? Just because you enjoyed the game mode in JO, doesn't mean you would in JA, as you've subsequently discovered. Different game, don't you know. Go back to JO.

Don't start that, you're as bad as they are. The game is about whatever it's about! I wish everyone would stop trying to warp every single game with "Jedi" in its title into their own personal idea of teh leet mod.



The clan i'm in is sponsered by a North American company and is organising a ladder with a cash prize. So in essence, yes.

The issue isn't 'we want kicks becuase its an easy kill (becuase people are too stupid to know how to counter them). The issue is that there is no longer a way to stop a guy who wants to stay alive at all costs.
We just want a patch with toggleable kick, no force for dfa, ptk etc. If you can't handle these, you just go to a server that doesn't have them on. But these features are actually needed otherwise s/o ctf becomes a stalemate.

CaptainJackZ
09-21-2003, 02:16 PM
This is what a lot of us have been saying all along. I still don't understand people's complaints about it. If it' an option I would think that would make everybody happy. Because as an option it gives people the choice. Kick or no kick. Dfa costs force, or it doesn't. As options in console I think this would be completely fair. Lets just hope the folks at lucasarts think so too:)

JarJarBinks
09-21-2003, 02:30 PM
Kick was never whored when I played JO, although that was about a year or so ago, a few months after 1.04 , so maybe people were different during the time I stopped playing...As long as we have these new moves so when you get knocked over you can jump back up and kick people or roll away I'm fine with kick being put in the game.

Zappa_0
09-21-2003, 02:54 PM
The Flip kick was taken out sometime after july. I dont know why they did it, but they should put it back in when they release an update. Plus I think the kick on the double bladed saber is kinda stupid, hopefully they will update these soon.

t3rr0r
09-21-2003, 03:18 PM
why not just learn to use the new kick... if anything, it's easier than the flip kick.

CaptainJackZ
09-21-2003, 05:13 PM
uhhhh no it's not. The chances of kicking someone off a bridge with that are practically 0. u can't pull to kick with that either.

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
duel se

Actually OmniMod had it, and Duel SE came after that. But I'm glad they decided to impliment that function as well.

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by CaptainJackZ
This is what a lot of us have been saying all along. I still don't understand people's complaints about it. If it' an option I would think that would make everybody happy. Because as an option it gives people the choice. Kick or no kick. Dfa costs force, or it doesn't. As options in console I think this would be completely fair. Lets just hope the folks at lucasarts think so too:)

Yeah, I'm not sure what Raven was thinking not doing it this way. Other than maybe they wanted to force some kind of uniformity between servers.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
right well let's dispell a myth here and now.

Being able to kick all the time and kill people laying on the floor did NOT make you a "skilled" player in JK2, What it did do is it made you a lazy player that was exploiting a weakness in the games coding.

The Jedi Knight series of games should be about saber skills not kung fu!

Wanna kick buy a PS2 and Tekken...:rolleyes:

quite funny how people like you complained about ground kills and how they weren't "meant to be there" but raven never touched it, and actually added a way to kill people on the ground :rolleyes:

also mentioned in the strategy guide is killing people after a knockdown...weakness...maybe, on your part.

Rumor
09-21-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by t3rr0r
why not just learn to use the new kick... if anything, it's easier than the flip kick.

because there is nothing to "learn" you just hit a button and it happens...that and it has no real use in ctf.

Spider AL
09-21-2003, 05:45 PM
The clan i'm in is sponsered by a North American company and is organising a ladder with a cash prize. So in essence, yes.So in actuality, no. Ty.

The issue isn't whether kicking would improve your particular choice of game mode. The issue is that if Raven listened to every whiny person who wanted a patch that they were convinced would "improve" their respective ideas of the game, we'd be back in 1.03ville.

I loved FFA in JK and JO. If FFA was crap in JA I wouldn't go running to Raven to demand that they patch it, I'd accept it and move on to another darn game mode. It's a different game. You're not asking for NG CTF to be patched in to Grand Theft Auto, are you. :rolleyes:

CTY was crap in JO. Solution: Play something else.

NG CTF is crap in JA... (I'll leave aside the point that it was crap in JO too) Solution, learn to duel. Learn to run and gun. Learn to play Street Fighter, but learn SOMETHING else.

The constant. CONSTANT infantile demands for patches that change this and change that and change the other is driving me insane, personally.

Mod it if you must, though more mods would merely fragment the community. But don't whine about patching.

t3rr0r
09-21-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
because there is nothing to "learn" you just hit a button and it happens...that and it has no real use in ctf.
and this is different from the flip kick, how?

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
right well let's dispell a myth here and now.

Being able to kick all the time and kill people laying on the floor did NOT make you a "skilled" player in JK2, What it did do is it made you a lazy player that was exploiting a weakness in the games coding.

The Jedi Knight series of games should be about saber skills not kung fu!

Wanna kick buy a PS2 and Tekken...:rolleyes:

I could also make the argument that people who never progressed beyond NF dueling only did so because they lacked the dexterity to compete in a game type that required more than the 4 basic movement keys and one attack button.


Jah no offense guy, but you self admittedly do not play Full Force saber only.

I can tell you with total certainty that if you and I were to meet in a server and I were to load up a bot in a FFA and then proceed to do several complex force based combos on that bot and then tell you how to do them and match what I just did, you would utterly fail if you tried to do the same.

It would take you quite a while to even be able to do the combos, let alone be able to develop the ability, reflexes and strategy so they could be used on a live human opponent with success.

Like anything, practice and experience makes perfect.

All game types, be it guns, ff/so, nf/so take practice to master and all game types require a serious level of skill to master.

Saying that just because you don’t agree with a persons usage of knocking you down then finishing you off makes them unskilled, really does come across as kind of ignorant and pardon the expression, “noobish”.


When I duel NF and kicks are enabled I know better than to initiate certain swings and lead-ins that leave me open against a kick user.

You should too if you call yourself skilled.

Comm539
09-21-2003, 07:30 PM
Its not a single whiny person. Its the enitre s/o ctf community.
And whining has a did work in the past with 3 patches for JO. We just want a patch to make our gametype (one that you don't play) playable. If your sick of reading our requests, don't read them, they're marked clearly enough. Pure and simple.

Ildon
09-21-2003, 08:04 PM
Kick wasn't abusive, it's just the fact that nobody knew that evasion is also a technique that can be used. Put it this way, when 2 idiots are in a saber fight, and one starts kicking, the guy being kicked could, and always could, run away. The damage didn't even need to be nerfed as much as it was. Problem is, the games, and Star Wars in general, attracts children and idiots alike, a general audience that makes up "people who suck at games". When they start crying "nerf", and when the people crying make up well over half of the people who play the game, then they patch it and make the game worse.

Comm539
09-21-2003, 08:09 PM
I agree that this is the unfortuante situation. But we want kicks to be toggleable, so competetive players can turn them on, and 'casual' players never need to see them again.

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 08:13 PM
"Move onto another gametype"

"CTY was crappy in JO, people moved on"

Was the CTY community as big as the S/O CTF Community? This is one of the most competetive gametypes in JO, and everyone was hoping in JA, but Raven screwed the gametype over. Now we're asking them to FIX that gametype, and that is considered whining? No my friend, whining is "Kick lamer!" "Saber down no attack!" "PULL THROW WHORE!!!" When a gametype in a game is COMPLETELY ruined to the point that the game is a stalemate everytime, it makes me wonder why raven even kept S/O CTF in the first place. Maybe they didn't test it well enough to realize how foolish removing kick and rage-dfa from a gametype that was solely dependent on them, and LOWERING the damage of normal sabers, and implementing eye candy moves that do **** for ctf really was.

BloodRiot
09-21-2003, 08:33 PM
How could they cry nerf if they didn't knew about it.

Raven didn't change a thing after the demo was out. It was removed long before.

Even though it IS a legal option... FF SO CTF is an error... it's a game that very easily ends in a draw. But there is a way to counter it...but only if you up the saber damage in the server config. By doing so you are making the saber effective in thsat particular game type without even the need for a patch or a mod.

No one cares for dramatic duels in ctf anyway.... the objective is the flag period.

To be honest I dont have anything against the kick being in personally. But I totally hate people whinning about a patch riht on top of the game release. It's benn done and it was proven to cause more ill than good. Communities broke apart, players left (some with were right and some were not).

I admit I didn't knew how customizable the game was until the later days I played JO. Just mess with the cvars for your own server.

I still think (personally) that FF SO CTF is lame cuz of its propensity for stalemates... the gun factor would change alot. It was quite diferent playing with gunz and servers in CTF... in fact it was the only game type I even used a gun... also liked the isntagib servers.

The people complaining surely at least realise that the saber is useless apart from being a shield in CTF FF NG. Abolish the SO servers and play with gunz... and If you come up with the "i dont like gunz" escuse...then my friends, you are scrubs (interesting reading back there about scrubs indeed) for you are denying your own victory.

But I will respect your POV's anyway... just respect mine as well and realise that whinning for a patch when it's not needed is a turd comming down the pike... and when a patch comes and the community gets divided and the game looses cuz of that.. that's when that same turd hits the fan.

IMHO... Raven are way too nice for their own good. They are in my book one of the best game companies nowadays. But they really should close their eyes to these requests and simply make their own decisions based on professional opinions.

Ildon
09-21-2003, 08:39 PM
Uh, the "I don't like guns" is all well and good, because Lightsabers and Force Powers are supposed to be, and always have been a better choice.

Fine. So Lighsabers aren't one-hit kills. Whatever.

You can/should be able to block every type of gunfire with either a Lightsaber, the Force, or a combination of both. It has ALWAYS been that way in the Star Wars universe.
If you suck at avoiding gunfire, that's one thing - but avoiding all gunfire with "Jedi Skills" cannot be done, because people think that guns are sweet. To well over half the people playing the game, they just wanted to play Counter-Strike with Star Wars skins. I'm appaled at the amount of people throwing up "No Force" servers, and the lack of "Saber Only" servers.

SonGohanX
09-21-2003, 08:46 PM
This thread went to hell pretty fast. lol

Its obvious that some people don't play Saber only CTF, and thats fine, but telling them to "move on to a different game type" is rather silly.

When there is indeed a community behind a mode of play, and that mode of play has a serious flaw, I don't think there's anything wrong with the community asking the developers for a solution. Especially when it wouldn't necessarily affect anyone outside the said community.

No, I don't think Raven should cater to every little piss and moan, that would only create more problems. I do however, think that they should investigate serious balance issues when they are discovered.

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by SonGohanX
This thread went to hell pretty fast. lol

Its obvious that some people don't play Saber only CTF, and thats fine, but telling them to "move on to a different game type" is rather silly.

When there is indeed a community behind a mode of play, and that mode of play has a serious flaw, I don't think there's anything wrong with the community asking the developers for a solution. Especially when it wouldn't necessarily affect anyone outside the said community.

No, I don't think Raven should cater to every little piss and moan, that would only create more problems. I do however, think that they should investigate serious balance issues when they are discovered.

Thank you very much for that, no joke.

It's nice to see at least one person understands what is going on here with these posts all the competitive players are making.

And people that is all we are asking.

There is a whole great big competitive community out there and the bottom line is this game basically makes competition play impossible for us in it's current state.

To be played on a competitive level a game needs to be able to expand and have options for the players beyond simplistic button mashing flashy saber moves that are ineffective against smart and skilled players.



Think of it like this:

If in Jedi Academy there was only 1 saber stance and 2 basic swings (like in Jedi Knight) do you think people would be happy?

Of course not.

They would wonder why the hell the game was over simplified to the point of being almost child like.

Oh sure I could make the argument that it is now more "movie like" and it would "take more skill now because no one could spam one hit kill moves" but would any of you really buy that argument?

Of course not.

See our point now?

Prime
09-21-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by JaledDur
Yeah, I'm not sure what Raven was thinking not doing it this way. Other than maybe they wanted to force some kind of uniformity between servers. But isn't this what competative players are asking for too? They want uniformity. Otherwise a mod would definitely be the way to go, because you would get exactly what you want, and it wouldn't interfere with other players. Isn't the only reason you want a patch because you want uniformity?

Whether you go with a togglable patch or a mod, you may still run into different servers with different rules. Especially if there is more than one toggable option. I'm sure there will be competative players that are going to want to be difficult and demand games be played with certain things off. You may end up right back to where you started with the mods. At least with the mods you have the control to get what you want. With a patch you get what is given to you, and you can be sure that the competative community won't be happy with everything that comes in a patch. I'm just not convinced that a toggable patch will solve all your problems.

Ildon
09-21-2003, 09:19 PM
Spamming one-hit kill moves is actually easier to avoid because of their predictability, than morons running in circles/circle-like patterns/random turns swinging their saber around. It doesn't take more skill now. It somehow takes less.

Mordred
09-21-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]
And to those who said "being in a clan doesn't make you good". You're right. Practicing this game with a team that knows what I'm capable of and I know what to expect from DOES make me better than you. Why? I put the time in. If you did you would become better too, but you didn't. So stop talking like you know what the deal is. You don't.

hmm u like to call other arrogant and yet u put a statment like that.

i said being in a clan does not make u good, which is true, but some people think it does.

but how can u say u are better than me, and that u put more time in. u have no idea who the hell i am, or how much i play my games.

so before u call other arrogant take a look in the mirror

lllKyNeSlll
09-21-2003, 09:54 PM
a great game but front kick and side kick would greatly improve it because in duels ff its very hard to kill another smart player. Sabers don't kill in 1 hit. One simply has to strafe jump around his opponent while draining to avoid death making endless matches for each point.

Jello123
09-21-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Mordred
hmm u like to call other arrogant and yet u put a statment like that.

i said being in a clan does not make u good, which is true, but some people think it does.

but how can u say u are better than me, and that u put more time in. u have no idea who the hell i am, or how much i play my games.

so before u call other arrogant take a look in the mirror

haha cuz everyone in the ctf s/o community knows him


you could go into a s/o server and say " MORDRED IS HERE" and theyd be like.."stfu"

Mordred
09-21-2003, 11:52 PM
Yeah but in a no force game sabers are fine as they cant heal, but if u put kick back in we will get the kick spam like before.

but what it boils down to is not being able to kill (or atleast damn long fights) because saber damage is to low and force powers to high.

so why add the kick back in?, just balence out the force powers and sabers.

tone down heals and drains a little and beef up the sabers a little

whats the point of a saber based game where kick is your main weapon.

Mordred
09-21-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Jello123
haha cuz everyone in the ctf s/o community knows him


you could go into a s/o server and say " MORDRED IS HERE" and theyd be like.."stfu"

Well for starts, whos saying i used the forum name in the game, plus i never mentioned anything about this game, i was speaking in general.

also just because i dont play ctf s/o makes me crap and i couldn't take him in a saber duel???

u presume to much

[fk]myth.
09-22-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Mordred
Yeah but in a no force game sabers are fine as they cant heal, but if u put kick back in we will get the kick spam like before.

but what it boils down to is not being able to kill (or atleast damn long fights) because saber damage is to low and force powers to high.

so why add the kick back in?, just balence out the force powers and sabers.

tone down heals and drains a little and beef up the sabers a little

whats the point of a saber based game where kick is your main weapon.

Kick isn't the main weapon, but when faced with a good FC and an energizer, it's the ONLY weapon. We just wan't this gametype balanced out the simplist way possible and screwing with all the sabers and forces.... why not just add kick. And about kick whoring? There are ways to block it you know. Try trick rolling, or push when he comes at you if you want to avoid kick. It's not like kick is an uber cool move that is unblockable and that when someone means to kick you, they are GOING to kick you. Kicks are S/O CTFers way of life, we know them inside and out, and there ARE ways to counter them.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 12:08 AM
And whining has a did work in the past with 3 patches for JO.Yeah, look where that got us. Ha, you prove my point so well...

If your sick of reading our requests, don't read them, they're marked clearly enough. Pure and simple.Personally I'm sick of your requests existing at all.

Its obvious that some people don't play Saber only CTF, and thats fine, but telling them to "move on to a different game type" is rather silly.

When there is indeed a community behind a mode of play, and that mode of play has a serious flaw, I don't think there's anything wrong with the community asking the developers for a solution.

Let's make this clear once and for all: There's a Jedi Outcast No Guns CTF community. Since NG CTF is apparently rubbish in JA (It was in JO as well, but who's counting) there should be NO Ng CTF community in JA. JA is not a mod for JO, it's another game. Let them go and play JO NG CTF.

There IS no JA NG CTF community, just a bunch of people who can't let go of what they happened to like about JO.

Especially when it wouldn't necessarily affect anyone outside the said community.It sets a bad precedent, and rewards insipid whining. Nuff.

Nice post Bloodriot.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 12:31 AM
Al no offense but you really need to stay out of this unless it directly concerns you.

I know you like to pick apart peoples posts and dissect every little detail of them for the sake of the argument but this is really a topic that you both know little about nor are involved in.

I'm sure you have been the great and glorious leader of [FW] for many moons but the bottom line is, if you and [FW] tried to play these teams on their turf you would be utterly crushed due to a total lack of knowledge in this game type.

That goes for both Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.

I play all types of Full Force saber only.

All types being duel, CTF, FFA and TeamFFA.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I have forgotten more about the mechanics and strategy in that game type than you will ever know.

But on that same token, I would never dare to tell someone who was a gunner with the same level of dedication and skill to his game type how things should be in the would of guns, if for no other reason than he's far beyond my level of experience in that game type.

In North America, Full Force saber only was (and was primed to be again) far more popular in competitive leagues than all weapon game types.

Now while you may not agree with that in your view of what things should be like, but in this thing we call reality that’s simply how it was.


Over here the full weapon ladders dried up and died due to a lack of players/clans yet the full force saber only community was having company sponsored multi-clan tournaments up until just a few weeks back.

AL normally I agree with a lot of what you say, but in this case you are commenting on something you have no serious experience or vested interest it.

And as such your opinion holds 0 weight this time around.

Pyro
09-22-2003, 12:38 AM
in other words stfu and emf b4 i swift kick u 2 ur fagt fase

Prime
09-22-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Pyro
in other words stfu and emf b4 i swift kick u 2 ur fagt fase You can't swift kick him in JA. It has been taken out of MP. :)

Mordred
09-22-2003, 01:24 AM
lol what about if they put in the Debugmelee 1 grabs for use?

lol u could grab the little flag carrying bugger, give him a couple of hit and throw him on the floor.

and u would look cooler than bouncing like a nutter.

would also keep the flag carrier down longer as u have to go through the whole animation plus being on the ground, giving time for your team to catch up and pin him in

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 01:39 AM
The thing is guys, it's ALL THERE.

We don’t need new animations or anything.

We just need things unlocked.

I can double tap kick off walls in sp, side kick off them too.

Unlock it.

I want to use a saber, trust me I do.

But when my basic swings do almost NO damage and my specials ALL cost 25-50 force (and really don't do much more damage) what is my incentive to deplete my pool and put myself at risk?

Unlock/remove the special force usage restrictions.

Simple fix.

Grip?

Why grip a guy or even put points in it for that matter when there is no way I can prevent him from breaking it.

It’s a waste of time.

Remove the line of sight restriction.

Fixed.

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 02:29 AM
AL - The entire point of playing this game over the other ones out there is the fact that this game has sabers, and it has force powers. That's what makes the JK series of games different. Raven acknowledged it simply by letting you start the single-player campaign with a saber, instead of having to play through a few missions like in JKO. Now, seeing as anyone who enjoys Saber-Only games has more or less realized that without kick and without damaging moves, this game is pointless...maybe as a company you would like to fix that.

However, all of us have remained relatively civil to you, but all you've done is try to flame us. You've said it multiple times - you don't like S/O CTF to begin with - so why are you commenting on any of these posts? We don't care what you have to say because you're disregarding what we're saying. So why don't you shut your ignorant pie hole and let us try to repair an already damaged community? Look at games like CS, Q3A, or anything else. What keeps them alive? What made a ****ty little mod to HL (not a particularly popular MP game to begin with) become a HUGE success? One word for you: competition. Considering the fact that CS has, without any big company support for a long while, become basically the most popular game online...simply because it's balanced, fun, and easy to be competitive in....maybe Raven would be wise to take a lesson from that game...

To anyone who's been busying anally pleasuring themselves and saying that we should find a new game type, well guess what. JKA's gun system isn't good enough to be big in the tournament ladder. Why? Because other games do guns better. As I said before, this game is about sabers and force, and the only leagues that will live for THIS game will take that into account. I.E. S/O FF dueling, team dueling, CTF, and that's it. Never underestimate the drawing power of word of mouth. JKA's launch is already a ****ty one to begin with.

Anyways, do us all a favor Al - shut your ****ing mouth because frankly, I won't be reading any more of your posts because they're a waste of time.


One more thing - Mordred, if by some chance you're actually a JKO player that could kick my ass, I apologize. However, the only players I know that could are in my clan, or in FK, and considering I've been playing these last few months and unless you're in a clan and not mentioning it, you haven't. Therefore, you didn't put the time in. K thx.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 03:15 AM
AL - The entire point of playing this game over the other ones out there is the fact that this game has sabers, and it has force powers. That's what makes the JK series of games different.Why thank you for gifting us with your 100% unbiased opinion on what makes the JK series of games worth playing. :D

What you're saying in a roundabout way is: "Ha, my favourite game mode is really the only one worth playing. It's the only TRUE jedi game mode, for TRUE jedi, which I am." News: your favourite game mode existed in JO. It doesn't exist in JA in the same form. Go back to the former. And you're not a Jedi. It's a game.

Now in MY opinion, the reason the JK series of games have been worth playing is because they're GOOD GAMES. Fun.

However, all of us have remained relatively civil to you, but all you've done is try to flame us.Really? If so, your abortive attempts at civility are merely prideful and snobbish arrogance. I'd hate to see you try to be insulting. But that's coming later in your post.

You've said it multiple times - you don't like S/O CTF to begin with - so why are you commenting on any of these posts?I should have thought that was obvious. You're the most recent in a long line of people with their begging bowls pointed in Raven's direction, and when Raven has dropped some coppers into such bowls, it's ruined the game for the rest of us. Sure, you believe that your game mode should be ported into JA. Sure, you wheedle with promises that "just a little patching can't hurt anybody now can it, and it won't affect anybody but us, honest honest" but that's just so much nonsense. Whenever another useless mod, a gameplay-altering patch and/or more server-side variables to confuse frankly uninitiated admins are brought out, it degrades the community for the rest of us.

We don't care what you have to say because you're disregarding what we're saying.Actually I think you'll find that I'm addressing what you're saying. I'm calling it selfish and dangerous tosh. :) Nothing personal. As a person I'm sure you're very nice, but as a lobbyist for gameplay changes you leave something to be desired.

So why don't you shut your ignorant pie holeWhy don't I? Glad you asked... it's because, as your compatriots are so fond of spouting: this forum is for the expression of opinion. My opinion is that you should all cease your dangerous meddling in things you were not meant to comprehend.

To anyone who's been busying anally pleasuring themselves and saying that we should find a new game type, well guess what. JKA's gun system isn't good enough to be big in the tournament ladder.Your opinion is duly noted, and dismissed. Nice talk btw, sugarmouth. :rolleyes:

As I said before, this game is about sabers and force, and the only leagues that will live for THIS game will take that into account.The prognosticator extraordinaire. Well mystic meg, why don't you tell me which horse will win the 4:50 at Braintree tomorrow...

I expect you think you're experienced enough to make predictions like that though.

The game is about what the game is about. The game is not about what YOU want it to be about. The game is not about what people THINK it's about. It's not about sabres, it's not about force, it's not about guns. It's about Jedi Academy. Perhaps you should wake up and realise that you own a brand new game, not a patch for JO.

Never underestimate the drawing power of word of mouth. JKA's launch is already a ****ty one to begin with.Never underestimate the drawing power of using your clan forums to recruit your "friends" to come to this thread and parrot your opinions endlessly.

Anyways, do us all a favor Al - shut your ****ing mouth because frankly, I won't be reading any more of your posts because they're a waste of time.OH NOS MY LIFE IS OVAR!!11

Did you censor your own swearing there, or was it the server? :p

And how about... No.

One more thing - Mordred, if by some chance you're actually a JKO player that could kick my ass, I apologize. However, the only players I know that could are in my clan, or in FK, and considering I've been playing these last few months and unless you're in a clan and not mentioning it, you haven't. Therefore, you didn't put the time in. K thx.Translation: If you can't beat me in NG CTF I am within my rights to insult you in a childish fashion.

***

the weiner dog!: I don't know you, and your support or lack of it is irrelevant to me. In addition, you are in error. I've posted nothing debating the mechanics of NG CTF, or NG in general.

No, I've posted about the possible negative impact of whining to Raven for a patch for ANY reason, less than a month after anyone's started playing the thing. Please read more carefully, perhaps you've confused my posts with someone else's. Not an easy mistake to make, but hey. ;)

As for your assertions that your preferred game mode would be very popular in JA circles, what a load of speculation. And frankly who cares. In JO, I was a dedicated gunner but also a FF sabre duel tournament champion. In JK I was a FF sabres champion. So even if by some freak accident of fate you have "forgotten more about the mechanics and strategy in that game type than (I) will ever know", (taste the ego) remember that JA is a new game, and we'll all have to adapt to it and its new strategies. A concept rapidly becoming foreign in gaming circles.

The ethos of today: "Something, nay, anything you don't like about the new game you bought? Don't bother adapting to it, ASK FOR A PATCH!"

I'd rather Raven ignored everyone who asked for a patch even if their claims bore any legitimacy, than try to appease separate groups of players, opening the floodgates to all those with purely personal, subjective non-bugfix and entirely illegitimate claims. It's that simple. I will not sit back and say nothing while I watch the campaign for "1.03: The return" gathering momentum. This is almost exactly how it started the last time.

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 03:40 AM
1) Is it me, or did Raven include CTF in their recently released game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy? Should this game be playable in all permutations in the build sold to the public?

2) Has anyone found a way that a game between 2 equally matched will have a Flag Carrier die in any way not relating to lag or stupidity?

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 03:49 AM
1) Is it me, or did Raven include CTF in their recently released game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy? Should this game be playable in all permutations in the build sold to the public?It is playable. It's not very good, that's all. ;) There's always one mode in every game that's a bit pony, anyway.

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 03:51 AM
when said one mode was the most popular mode of competitive play in the previous iteration of said game, wouldn't it make sense for the company of said game to appease those players? Isn't insulting a large portion of your community considered a bad judgement call by anyone concerned with PR?

Side
09-22-2003, 03:53 AM
2) Has anyone found a way that a game between 2 equally matched will have a Flag Carrier die in any way not relating to lag or stupidity?

This question still got 0 answer

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 03:54 AM
Isn't insulting a large portion of your community considered a bad judgement call by anyone concerned with PR?You appear to be still stuck in JO. The JA community hasn't arrived yet, and nothing Raven can do to JA could possibly insult the JO community. Your mode resides in another game entirely.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 03:55 AM
Good point side.

Here you go "omg learn the game and give it some time" people:

tell us how to do it since you all are so wise and were the best in the previous game and since this game is 80% the same content tell us how...

oh wait, you guys are umm so-so skilled at best.

ok I'll be quite now.

;)

AL do you even have the damn game?

I'm serious.

It's 80% the same dynamics and game play.

Remove foot from mouth, stop trying to dissect every post bit by bit and pay attention.

It
is
not
an
entirely
new
game
to
learn.
It
has
one
new
gun
and two
new
stances
with
limited
moves
and
a
hell
of
a
lot
of
nerfing.

Can you grasp this?

Can you?

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 03:59 AM
Oh grow up sausage dog, that post belonged in a schoolyard. If that's the height of your maturity perhaps you should indeed be "quite". Besides, it's irrelevant to the argument of the people you're referring to whether there's an answer to that question at all. The issue is not whether JA NG CTF is a good game mode, the issue is that it's a NEW game mode, and whether it's good or not, doesn't mean an abortive, foetal patch should be rushed out to once again doom us all.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 04:17 AM
Answer my question AL.

Do you have the Game?

You don't live in North America, so I'm going to guess no (I admit I could be wrong though but most euro's including the ones in our clan say it's not out over there).

Am I correct?

Then how the hell can you even FORM an opinion?

Not to mention you DON'T play these game types as you have stated.

Please, oh yee of great wisdom, bring the mighty [FW] clan to the [div3rse] or FK server and teach us.

You know as well as I do you and your clan would be made fools of in a match, so you sit here and chime in on things you know nothing about and try to dissect posts bit by bit to belittle people but all the while not having to actually ever be in a situation where you have to back up your arrogance.

As I stated before, full force saber only was (bold letters here AL, pay attention) the most popular competitive game type in the history of Jedi Outcast in the States, much more so than any other including any gun based games.

There are more active North American clans ready to compete than any other game type.

All we want is a non fan boy RPG game with some serious thought put into the dynamics to compete in.

Can you grasp that Al?

Can you?

[div3rse.jello]
09-22-2003, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!

All we want is a non fan boy RPG game with some serious thought put into the dynamics to compete in.



OMGOMG shouldnt there be a hyphen between non and fan!!!11one

OMGS your dog looks pregnant

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 04:32 AM
I like weiner dogs.

I had one for 18 years.

it died.

:(

oh yeah, just a side note about kicks to Hex:

you may want to tweak the knock back a little (sometimes the kicker flys back farther than the kicked person) and watch out for a nasty "wall walk on a guys face" bug that is in single player when it is enabled via melee command.

both were very annoying and random in single player but did happen at the worst times.

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 04:45 AM
I cant get kick to work in single player either. I tried that melee cheat in the console but it does nothing..............

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 04:50 AM
enable cheats first dood.

actually to be honest I have not tried it in my retail sp.

I did it in the demo thing but have not messed with it since I got the cd's.

I remember it was funny how you could "super mario" jump off the tops of their heads in the sp demo and knock them down.

I never really played jk2 sp so this could have been in there for all I know but it made me go "wtf was that" the first time I did it.

good for a chuckle.

:p

Khier
09-22-2003, 05:02 AM
I just hope that something is done for the competitive community, I don't really care what. As far as I can tell, as long as there is a way to slow down the FC in ff s/o CTF then they'd at least be minimally satisfied. Putting kick back in would be the easy way, of course. Another decent idea IMO, is for the FC to recieve a speed penalty. It's kind of sad, because I was planning on getting a new computer, buying JA, practicing on FF s/o servers, and then signing up for TWL to try my hand at the competitive business. Now my question is: is it worth it? Not only is Raven upsetting the current competitive community, but as well turning away any future competitive players.

[div3rse.jello]
09-22-2003, 05:10 AM
ja needs stop signs

maybe even traffic lights and a police station so they can arrest players for "x" amount of minutes for speeding and bunny hopping like a maniac

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 05:17 AM
heh



Khier Serakk relax dude.

we may not get anything in the form of official help but it looks like =X= mod is going to put the "game" back in the release so to speak.


right now =X= and div3rse both have servers up or are soon to be up, and FK will have a server or two up soon.

Once you get the game come play with us and I'll personally help you out (this is the guy who posted that demo of me beating the crap out of those [RYA] guys that were messing with you way back in case you don't know who I am).

With a little help we will have you kicking ass and taking names in no time.



;)

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 05:34 AM
who are you again weiner? I could ask some div people, but they're probably not up right now...and I just finished my engineering work, so it's pretty late

Rumor
09-22-2003, 05:40 AM
thats swift...

[div3rse.syn]
09-22-2003, 05:44 AM
hmm...side says it's unnamed...but be it unnamed or swift, Good day to you, and nice arguements ;)

CaptainJackZ
09-22-2003, 11:09 AM
The kick does wrk in sp, and I'm pretty ure you don't need cheats. tried it and you just have to have jump at lvl 2 or 3. Idon't understand y they couldn't just take that and put it into mp...although, you do fly back too far when u kick ppl... Oh well, I guess HeX will be fixing that stuff. Thank god for HeX. =)

Pyro
09-22-2003, 12:12 PM
definitely not swift... swift can say like 2 things:

f u nib
die plz

Mordred
09-22-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]

One more thing - Mordred, if by some chance you're actually a JKO player that could kick my ass, I apologize. However, the only players I know that could are in my clan, or in FK, and considering I've been playing these last few months and unless you're in a clan and not mentioning it, you haven't. Therefore, you didn't put the time in. K thx.

Well no prob.

not being a clan does not mean u dont put time into the game.
and the amount of time u play does not always make u better than some one who has not played as much (unless its a RPG)

But ethier way im not saying i would beat u, your u would beat me.

i was just makign the point of u cant say u are better then soemone else of u have no idea whop they are or if u have never played against them.

but thats the attitude of a lot of clan players, that they will beat them because they in a clan. (which u have kind of helped to prove)

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 02:08 PM
Answer my question AL.

Do you have the Game?

You don't live in North America, so I'm going to guess no (I admit I could be wrong though but most euro's including the ones in our clan say it's not out over there).

Am I correct?Pardon me while I stop laughing at this abortive attempt at a riposte. The game was released in the UK days ago, and I got it as early as any man in England. I'm glad you admit you could be wrong. You are, in more than this. Go to gameplay.com, the main UK mailorder retailer to check it. ;)

Please, oh yee of great wisdom, bring the mighty [FW] clan to the [div3rse] or FK server and teach us.

You know as well as I do you and your clan would be made fools of in a match, so you sit here and chime in on things you know nothing about and try to dissect posts bit by bit to belittle people but all the while not having to actually ever be in a situation where you have to back up your arrogance.Perhaps you're incapable of grasping the rather obvious fact that the game mode you love so much is, quite frankly, poo. But that aside, I haven't entered into the debate over the game mechanics of NG CTF at all. You're just not capable of reading carefully enough, apparently. ;)

I like the way you accuse ME of arrogance in a post that boils down to "MYCLAN COU<D BEET UR CLAN SO STFU NOOB AH AHAH!!11"

As I stated before, full force saber only was (bold letters here AL, pay attention) the most popular competitive game type in the history of Jedi Outcast in the States, much more so than any other including any gun based games.Wow, it was the most popular JO gametype in America. I feel so humbled.

Plenty of silly people have spitting contests you know, that doesn't make spitting a great uberfun pastime of much skill. And you typed the operative words yourself: Jedi Outcast. This is Jedi Academy. Different game, different gametype, different dynamic. So NG CTF is crap in JA. So what tbh? ;)

Doctor Shaft
09-22-2003, 03:09 PM
If S/O CTF Full Force is poo... then I guess you wouldn't or shouldn't care if a patch were ever to be released that allowed people to unlock kicks in that gametype.

I mean... it is poo after all, and you wouldn't bother arguing with people about how they want to change said poo.

If they want one game type fixed, especially one that you seem to have an aversion to, then I guess you shouldn't care. But I guess it's important that we are informed over and over that you don't like groups of people begging Raven for changes.

Regardless, it's great that you're revealing the truth of everyone's motives. Yes, we're all arrogant, know it all whiners who want to change the game to pleasure ourselves, or a small group at least. You've been repeating yourself, or spending more time defending yourself from flames than actually saying something new. Over and over. FF CTF S/O is poo, like you said. That should end your discussion and interest in these threads. Few people are requesting Raven to add kick to FFA, or TFFA. Most people just want to be able to unlock kick for S/O FF CTF, or any other game type they are interested in. That's all. Arrogant, self-interested bastards indeed. I love it.

What's more, most people just want a toggle option for kick. Besides your also very publicly known distaste for forum-driven patches and people demanding that a company serve them, what other concerns do you have about people asking Raven to possible give them a 'key' to unlocking certain maneuvers that were present in JO? A majority of people wouldn't have to play with them -- YOU wouldn't have to play with them -- and both sides of the 'kick/no kick' argument would still be pleased.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 03:19 PM
If S/O CTF Full Force is poo... then I guess you wouldn't or shouldn't care if a patch were ever to be released that allowed people to unlock kicks in that gametype. Still don't get it eh. I don't want any patches at all, yet. Patches this soon can only damage the game in the long term.

A majority of people wouldn't have to play with them -- YOU wouldn't have to play with them -- and both sides of the 'kick/no kick' argument would still be pleased.Don't be naive. If Raven pays attention to THIS group, they have to pay attention to other groups. 1.03 was caused by similar circumstances, in case you've forgotten.

You've been repeating yourself, or spending more time defending yourself from flames than actually saying something new. Over and over.I'm glad you've noticed that the group you're defending does little but flame those who point out the flaw in their hasty and selfish "If I don't like it, patch it" attitude. ;)

As for repeating myself, no. I've been trying very hard to make people like yourself understand exactly what the problem is with premature patching. I've worded each statement and argument in various ways at various times in an obviously vain attempt to get it through your heads.

Doctor Shaft
09-22-2003, 03:25 PM
I guess I still don't get it.

My question still stands though. If the 'patch' that comes prematurely, or whenever, simply allowed people to toggle the kick, etc, what would be so wrong? This community won't be unified anyway, even if Raven does decide to patch it the way you've always said they should have.

I know you've posted before saying that the 1.03 patch, etc., was premature, and that Raven should have waited it out or just fixed a bug or two. I feel that regardless of smart patching, this community is still going to continue to whine and complain about the same things over and over again. I can't forsee any unity at all. At some point, people are going to want kick back.

I don't see anything wrong in just letting people have a toggle. They get it, other people refrain from it, that would be the end of it. We already have the cvars to change saber damage, and apparently some servers have Force Regen set high. I wasn't fully aware that you could even toggle it.

If there's so little standardization there, I don't see what's wrong with giving the public a little more customization-chaos.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 03:35 PM
I guess I still don't get it. You're right.

I'm sure you believe that having kick back is important for some reason. I know you genuinely feel that way.

Remember this: Those that thought the repeater and the flechette were imbalanced in the last game genuinely believed that their idea would improve the game.

Those that believed drain was too powerful and/or heal was too powerful in the last game, genuinely believed that their idea would improve the game.

Belief is not the issue. MERIT of an idea is not the issue. The issue is time. A patch, should not change gameplay, until the gameplay is TRULY understood. That takes months. Gameplay is like an ecosystem. The slightest change can affect the game hugely.

Who could have foreseen the effect of nerfing the flechette: A sharp upcurve in camping. The people who requested the alteration thought that nerfing one or two guns would make sabres more desirable. All it did was make gunners more bitter, and more territorial. No less successful though.

You say that a toggleable kick would not affect anyone but NG CTFers. How can you be sure? Give server admins a variable, and half of them will activate it, and half will disable it. You said as much yourself. Regardless of what server or gametype they're running. That splits the community straight away.

You want unity? Unity is a pipedream. There are merely successive levels of fragmentation. The more patches and mods a game has, the more fragmented its community becomes.

Even if your toggle had NO effect whatsoever, as you claim, Raven wouldn't just listen to THIS thread, to THIS group. If they made a patch to pander to premature whiners, they'd listen to ALL of them. There have been some pretty bad ideas so far, and Raven can't always distinguish between them to be honest.

Premature patching is the worst idea of all, for reasons previously established.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 03:36 PM
Get over yourself AL.
Take time to read our request. We want the kick (thats already in the game) to be unlocked with a toggle\ble command. You don't even play s/o ctf. It won't affect your gamemode, but will resolve all the problems with ours. JA ctf has been tried and you admit yourself "its poo". JO ctf worked fine, the reason being there were ways to halt an fc who didn't want to stop. These methods worked, so its not some trial and error patch: this gameplay worked in JO and will work in JA.

Post something constructive, like a reason why kick shouldn't be exclusively reintroduced to s/o ctf along with an alternative way to stop a running fc. Your pointless replies of 'this is a different game' are ridiculous.

Feel free to add to my list of new features:

New gun
Saber staff (already in JO)
Duel Sabers
Kata
Roll stab
Butterfly

Uhm, all the rest is from JO.


Mordred: You think competetive play is a minority. If saber collision detetction and combo limits on staff and duel sabers aren't in place, competetive dueling will die too (nf and ff). Ctf dies. Who do you think runs all the servers? 80% of servers are clan servers. The competetive community dies, 80% servers dissapear. Around 10% of servers are run by server companies to attract customers (from clans). Clans die, companies don't bother with free servers. Your left with 10% of servers trying to pull hits on their website.
I disagree that competetive gameplay is a minority, but even if it were so, 'casual' gamers need the competetive community more than you realise.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 03:42 PM
New gun
Saber staff (already in JO)
Duel Sabers
Kata
Roll stab
ButterflyPfft.

Updated engine
Updated graphics engine
New weapons (weapons aren't defined by what they look like, but what they do.)
New effects of those weapons
New dynamic in MP due to differences in variables, netcode and weaponry.

And last but not least, you don't run JA using JO's executable. YOUR assertions that this is merely a mod are both laughable from a technical AND actual standpoint.

Post something constructive, like a reason why kick shouldn't be exclusively reintroduced to s/o ctf Done and done. It's hardly my fault if you don't read properly.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 03:49 PM
Its the same engine with updates, therefore does not affect gameplay.

The weapons (incl. saber) have been nurfed. Saber timing is pointless, you just need to spam duel sabers while someone hacks down with red (which has a 3 hit combo) and duel sabers wins. Theres no intricity to this game, just running around with a finger on attack.
The intricity has been removed.

You said 'JA s/o ctf is poo'

Yes. There are NO NEW METHODS TO STOP SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE STOPPED.
A few ways have been suggested, but none are workable. Feel free to add to the ways.
Reenable kick, a method that allowed ctf to worked fine. It isn't trial and error. It worked in JO and therefore will work in JA.

And judging from how many people don't want kick in other gametypes, the admins won't reenable kick on non-ctf servers.

Mordred
09-22-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Comm539

Mordred: You think competetive play is a minority.

if u can find one quote of me saying that i would be greatly suprised.

im all for competetive gaming, i have stated alot of times i dont want to see JA turn into Chat rooms like JO did.

im not all that against the kick in CTF only ethier.

but over all the major problem in all modes of the fact that u can heal/drain and keep the fight going way to long, and sabers dont do enough damage to combat the heals. but kick is not the way to sort that.

as for CTF yes stopping the FC is a problem, and yes somthing needs to be done.

now im not a staff user but whats the point in them having a kick insted of saber throw (yes i know u can throw it with one blade turned off), if ever one else has a kick ?

if kick does go back in, it should be CTF only, the side kick only and do no damage just knockdown, that way atlast the staff kick still has a point to it

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:07 PM
Its the same engine with updates, therefore does not affect gameplay.Rubbish! Gameplay is defined by motion, moves and weaponry. These are different, therefore gameplay is different. And by your flimsy rationale every game based on the Quake engine is a mod of Quake.

The weapons (incl. saber) have been nurfed. Saber timing is pointless, you just need to spam duel sabers while someone hacks down with red (which has a 3 hit combo) and duel sabers wins. Theres no intricity to this game, just running around with a finger on attack.I've found a few techniques to counter dual sabres so far. I recall that many people said the same thing about JO when it came out too... they were similarly wrong.

You said 'JA s/o ctf is poo'

Yes. There are NO NEW METHODS TO STOP SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE STOPPED.Well, it was poo in JO too. But it's unworkable in JA. So what? That doesn't mean a premature and ill-conceived patch should be extruded from Raven's offices.

And judging from how many people don't want kick in other gametypes, the admins won't reenable kick on non-ctf servers.Oh please. These forums don't reflect the world of game network servers, and many people who simply don't care about this topic, but would like kick re-enabled in FFA and duel (a very negative idea) haven't posted here yet. Your idea's merit is irrelevant. The method of the realisation of your idea is VERY relevant, and could be very damaging: a patch.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:07 PM
k sorry, must be someone else.
But all we're asking for is kick to be toggleable, so it is only readded to s/o ctf.

There's also the argument 'kick shouldn't be the only way to kill'.
Its not, we don't have kick there to just kill. Sure you can get kicked off a platform, but kick is there to stop a runner.

Imagine you have the flag. You don't want to get killed at ANY cost, so you run away from everyone. You also have a healer and an energizer, so you can run infinitely.
Ptk, kick, pk, rage dfa, grip kick, were ways to stop the fc so you can finish him off with your saber. The problem we have is that there are no ways to stop the fc in order to kill him. The kick in ctf isn't there as a killer, its there as a means to stop the fc. Since theres no new ways to stop someone in JA, no matter how many new saber swings and strategies you learn, they're all pointless if you can't stop the fc.


Also adding, by your own admitance:

These forums don't reflect the world of game network servers, and many people who simply don't care about this topic, but would like kick re-enabled in FFA and duel

Many people eh? Then whats the problem?! If so many agree to reenable kick, why should you stand in their way? If its so popular, as you so helpfully agreed, whats the problem in having a toggleable patch to reenable kicks? All the "Many" (as you said)people who want kicks can have them and those who don't, don't have them. You can just go to a server with no kicks. Sorted.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:11 PM
But all we're asking for is kick to be toggleable, so it is only readded to s/o ctf.Once again for the back rows: If kick is a variable, it could well be reactivated on some servers running different gametypes, fragmenting the other gametype communities. It doesn't matter how little, the fact is that you're risking damaging the whole community to try to ressurect a currently dead game mode which only existed in one game, the previous game. The fact is that you don't care about those other gametypes, all you care about is your own little mode, your own little clique and your own little opinion of how the game could be "improved" even though you've played it for less than a month. It's laughable.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:16 PM
many people who simply don't care about this topic, but would like kick re-enabled in FFA and duel

Please save it. You admit many people want kick, so why should you stand in their way? If a toggleabl;e patch is released, aswell as fixing ctf, it'll aloow the community to finally decide for themselves...to kick or not to kick. I'm sure there'll be a mixture.

Remember, if you don't like it, take your own advice and "Move on and play another gametype"

Your argument is hipocritical and flawed.

Mordred
09-22-2003, 04:16 PM
Well yeah if they put in a no damage side kick back into CTF as a means to stop a FC and can not be put into any other modes

i will be happy.

but i cant see it happening, if it goes in one modes its bound sure to go in the others :(

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:19 PM
All this 'risking damage' crap. You survived with kicks throughout JO, why couldn't you survive now?

And why would kicks 'just be reenabled?' If people are so against kicks, they won't turn them on. If they turn them on, then its because people want to kick again. Why should you decide fopr everyone? A toggleable patch will let the community decide for itself, through what it wants.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:21 PM
Please save it. You admit many people want kick, so why should you stand in their way?Many fools wanted to remove all guns from JO entirely, or nerf them all.

Doesn't make them right. Doesn't mean I shouldn't "stand in their way".

Remember, if you don't like it, take your own advice and "Move on and play another gametype"Idiotic. YOU'RE the one who wants to change things. That means YOU bear the burden of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that those things NEED to be changed. BUGS need to be fixed, gameplay is not fixable, it merely exists. And having played the game for less than a month, nobody here is qualified to declare that their method of "improving" gameplay won't adversely affect the rest of the community. Premature patching ALWAYS has negative results. Look at the history for once.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Many fools wanted to remove all guns from JO entirely, or nerf them all.

Doesn't make them right. Doesn't mean I shouldn't "stand in their way".


By your own agrugment, I could say Many fools wanted to remove kicks from JO, or nerf them. Doesn't make it right.

Again, a hippocritical argument. You say patching will have adverse affects. Well removing kicks has had adverse affects. JO ctf was working with kicks, so if we can restore whats been nurfed, we can restore the gameplay. This isn't nurfing, its fixing whats been nurfed.

Mordred
09-22-2003, 04:26 PM
that is to a large part true, but just because the server host wants kick, does not mean that other do, now yes u would just have to find another servers, but then finding a server with a good ping with/witout kick, which ever u want maybe come a problem, and they it turns into JO

like with tins of servers running adim mods and so one all with different setting and stupid rules. and u get sick and tired of try to find a good server thats not running all this crap, or running the exact crap u want and u just give up.

now ok with just the kick toggle should not be a problem really, but lots of other want other aspects changable aswell.

people should learn to leave thing alone unless they are truely broke.

and i will admit S/O CTF is broke and needs sorting. but the others dont really, apart from the heals need toning down or sabers beefing up, or a little of both would be best. (so u dont notice a big nerf in heals or a huge jump in saber damage, but still sorts the problem)

Th4tguy
09-22-2003, 04:29 PM
That means YOU bear the burden of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that those things NEED to be changed.

Uh...dont 60 min games that end up being 0-0 prove that something needs to be changed. Nobody wants to play to a stalemate of that proportion. And the only reason why it ended was because the fc left giving the other team a chance to score. I think that right there is proof that it needs to be changed.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:32 PM
By your own agrugment, I could say Many fools wanted to remove kicks from JO, or nerf them.Idiotic again, this isn't JO. It's the sequel to JO. It's JA. It's a separate game, something I know you have trouble understanding. Quake 2 had no axe. Quake 2 players didn't go around screaming "THEY NERFED OUR AXE!!11". It was a different game and changes are to be expected... more, they're to be HOPED for in new games. If FFA guns in JA wasn't as good as in JO, I'd be off playing FFA guns in JO now, I wouldn't be whining about the fact on here!

And don't call me a hippo.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:39 PM
This is JO with nurfing. Nothing has been added but a few new saber swings and styles. All of the ways to stop an fc have been removed.
No matter what strategies you learn, there's no ways to stop and fc to finish him with your saber. In essence, fc's are now invincible. This problem can be solved be re-adding kicks (that did and will still stop an fc) so you can finish him with whatever new strategies you like. Kicking isn't just a weapon, its necesarry to stop the fc, to stop his escape, otherwise a stalemate occurs. The fact is, the code is so amazingly different [/sarcasm] that the kicks are still in the code. We just want to unlock them.
But if kicks aren't necessary:

Enlighten us with ways to stop an fc.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:41 PM
This is JO with nurfing.It's JA, it's different, get used to it. No amount of stubborn blindness will change that. Just because JA is different to JO, doesn't mean it should be patched to make it exactly like JO.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:43 PM
haha. Look at the code. Its JO with nurfing.

You still didn't answer the question:

How can you stop an fc who doesn't want to stop?

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:45 PM
haha. Look at the code. Its JO with nurfing.I'm sorry, does the word "nurfing" mean "changes"? If so, then I agree. And most games these days are previous games with "changes". That doesn't make them mods.

As for your question, I posted replies to that earlier in the thread, it's not my fault if you didn't bother to read them.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:47 PM
You posted zero ways to stop an fc who doesn't want to be stopped.

How do you stop an fc who doesn't want to be stopped?

is the question you have avoided yet again.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:48 PM
You posted zero ways to stop an fc who doesn't want to be stoppedI posted several suggestions. Go back and read them.

And you've obviously run out of attempted defences for your indefensible position of wanting a premature patch. Shame, I was enjoying watching you squirm. :D

Th4tguy
09-22-2003, 04:49 PM
It's JA, it's different, get used to it

Al...ur right it is different, its been made so s/o ctf has been nerfed to the point where u cant play it competitively so go back to ur ffa and stay out of this thread. I doubt u have ever played s/o ctf so u dont understand why it was good. And if we wanted it to be exactly like JO then wouldnt we be fighting to get rid of dual sabers and kataas. Oh and please like Comm said enlighten us on how to stop an fc.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:51 PM
Ugh, I hate the word "ur".

You can doubt all you want, I played it. More than once, more than ten times.

go back to ur ffa and stay out of this thread.No. I'll continue to make the point that premature patching is invariably damaging, thanks. ;)

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:52 PM
Well please begin to make a point of how to kill an fc who doesn't want to be stopped.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 04:54 PM
Well please begin to make a point of how to kill an fc who doesn't want to be stopped.Thank you for asking nicely, but I've made my suggestions, I'm tired of endlessly repeating myself for your benefit. Just go and read them. It's all archived you know, or are you too lazy to press one of the thread page numbers...

Besides, it doesn't matter if your game mode is crap in JA or not. That doesn't mean the game should be prematurely patched. Far from it, it means you should either go back to JO, make a mod for JA, or play another game mode.

You started playing NG CTF because it was fun, yes? In JA it's not fun? So play something else.

Th4tguy
09-22-2003, 04:56 PM
Al if they make a patch that doesnt mean u have to use it. There were plenty of ppl that still played 1.03 after the 1.04 patch so if u dont like the patch dont use it. It's just that the people that played s/o ctf constantly would like a game that doesnt end up in a 0-0 stalemate after 60 minutes.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:57 PM
We play s/o ctf becuase it is fun. And it can still be fun as long as kicks are reimplemented.

And Nope. You have not suggested any ways to stop an fc who doesn't want to be stopped. None are archived. Stop changing the subject and making excuses. If they're there, copy and paste them. If your agsint kicking, answer the question: How to stop an fc who doesn't want to be stopped.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 05:00 PM
Al if they make a patch that doesnt mean u have to use it. There were plenty of ppl that still played 1.03 after the 1.04 patch Thanks for bringing that up, it proves that premature gameplay-altering patches only fragment and harm the community.

We play s/o ctf becuase it is fun. Good, go back to playing it then. In JO. Leave this new, and unexplored game alone to grow as it will. It doesn't need you pruning at it now.

And Nope. You have not suggested any ways to stop an fc who doesn't want to be stopped. None are archived. Stop changing the subject and making excuses. If they're there, copy and paste them.I'm not doing your legwork for you. I made three suggestions in one of my early posts in this thread. YOU copy and paste them. And stop avoiding the question: Do you have the right to risk ruining JA just so that you can clone a game mode you happened to like from another, older game? No. Mod it.

Rumor
09-22-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Th4tguy
Al if they make a patch that doesnt mean u have to use it. There were plenty of ppl that still played 1.03 after the 1.04 patch so if u dont like the patch dont use it. It's just that the people that played s/o ctf constantly would like a game that doesnt end up in a 0-0 stalemate after 60 minutes.

that and he keeps on the "whole entirely new game" argument, so why is he bringing up stuff from jk2? games get patched. hell etm got patched the day it came out...

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 05:06 PM
that and he keeps on the "whole entirely new game" argument, so why is he bringing up stuff from jk2? games get patched. hell etm got patched the day it came out...Because, my pleasant little chum, the bad thing that happened to JK2 may well happen to JA if these fellows get through to Raven without contradiction.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 05:08 PM
Runined in your opinion. You already admitted many people want kicks back, so who are you to decide for them? Surely if kicks don't work (and there no reason why they shouldn't since 80% of the game is the same code from JO) then they would be disabled on other gamemodes.


If you think increasing saber damage will help, then you have to find a way to stop the fc first.
I have said there are no new ways tos top an fc. All of the old ways have been removed. It is logical to therefore readd them. You disagree with this, therefore it is your job to provide a better solution to stop an fc. A question you have not yet answered.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 05:12 PM
BTW i think you realised you shot yourself in the foot by admitting many people want kicks back and is subsequently the reason why you editted your post. :D

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 05:13 PM
Runined in your opinion. You already admitted many people want kicks back, so who are you to decide for them?Many people wanted to nerf all the guns in JO. Who am I to decide for them? Someone who isn't totally stupid, apparently.

You disagree with this, therefore it is your job to provide a better solution to stop an fc.Actually it's my job to stop you ruining the game for everyone. Which is what you're risking. It's the job of every right-thinking individual. ;)

(Edit)

I edited my post? I edited one post because I saw that I'd missed the word "this" out of a sentence. Edit nazi. :rolleyes:

(/Edit)

Comm539
09-22-2003, 05:16 PM
No we want toggleable kicks. If it ruins the game for s/o ctf then so be it (although it will do nothing more than aid it).

AsI said, it might ruin the game in your opinion. Who are you to decide for everyone? If it messes up gameplay, then obviously servers would turn kicking off. Your scared that you know some people will like it and it will work.

If so, take your own advice and play another game...Dark Forces maybe?


btw ofc you won't admit that you wrote
Many people want kick back But it has seriously flawed your argument.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 05:20 PM
No we want toggleable kicks. If it ruins the game for s/o ctf then so be it (although it will do nothing more than aid it).The truth is that you don't care what happens to other game modes. You're selfish.

AsI said, it might ruin the game in your opinion. Who are you to decide for everyone?Who are you? If you consider your point of view to have intrinsic worth, you must logically admit that mine has intrinsic worth. And YOU were accusing me of being hypocritical earlier.

(Edit)

Of course I wrote it, in more posts than one, and it's still there. Lots of morons wanted lots of silly things back in JO. The game would have been better off if they'd been stamped on instead of pandered to by Raven's patching.

(/Edit)

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 05:24 PM
Here, final proof. From my earlier post, I didn't edit it out. It's a fact that there are many fools in the community, who would destroy the game if they had a chance. I'm making sure that Raven hears both sides.

many people who simply don't care about this topic, but would like kick re-enabled in FFA and duel (a very negative idea) haven't posted here yet.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 05:25 PM
hehhe you ran out of arguemnt.

If we were selfish, we would say "We want kicks back"[/fullstop]

Truth is, we want to give the option to put kicks back.

If people like them back, they can have them, in your opinion they wouldn't be good, so you don't have to have them.
Obviously if kicks ruined the balance of the game (not that there is any at the moment) thewn admins wouldn't use the kicks. The admins act on what the community wants. They want people to go to their server, so will do what the community wants. You cannot decide that kicks will ruin the game, for the entire community. I can decide however that kicks would enable ctf to be playable again, becuase they will indeed stop an fc.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 05:26 PM
Al do me a favor please, either come sign up for some competition play with the best clans in this game or simply shut the hell up.



You have 0 knowledge on the topic we are discussing so why are you even here other than to troll?

I'm serious Al; this whole "I know nothing about this topic and do not play this game type but I'm going to keep making uninformed posts and ignorant statements for the sake of the argument" crap is really getting old.

bring your role playing newbie clan and get on the ladders at TWL or get off your condescending, arrogant, uninformed proverbial high horse and let the people who do participate in this arena discuss what we have chosen to do so without having to read your ignorant, baseless comments every other post.

You know as well as I do people like myself, my clan and the clans and people you are trying to argue with would massacre you and your newbie clan yet you sit here and try to preach to us as if you some how are some omniscient all knowing source of knowledge about this game and it's predecessor.

I’m serious Al, like we Americans say:

Put up or shut up.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 05:28 PM
hehhe you ran out of arguemnt.... Nahhh. I think I know what that means.

If we were selfish, we would say "We want kicks back"[/fullstop]

Truth is, we want to give the option to put kicks back.Same thing, as I've explained.

Obviously if kicks ruined the balance of the game (not that there is any at the moment) thewn admins wouldn't use the kicks. The admins act on what the community wants. The admins do what the most vocal section of the community shouts at them to do. Half the time the admins are part-time players at best. They don't know the difference between a valid request and a request that's screamed at them all day. The community is going to be fragmented enough with all the different modes of play. It doesn't need YOU sitting here plotting its further fragmentation.

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 05:31 PM
Wiener boy, you may be trying to get a rise out of me with that flamefest which attacks me and my clan in a childish fashion. It won't work. You just don't have the weight.

And the fact that my clan doesn't play the endlessly tedious game mode NG CTF has always been a source of pride for me. Thanks for reminding me of that fact. ;)

I’m serious Al, like we Americans say:

Put up or shut up.Like we brits say:

Sheooot bwoay, lemme get mah shotgun and shoot yer but-tocks off, get offa mah front porch, yeee-hawww!

Xenophobe. ;)

Comm539
09-22-2003, 05:37 PM
If kicks work, admins will use them (if the community wants them too). If it breaks gameplay, admins will turn them off.

You don't want kicks (for whatever reasons, your not good enough to use them, evade them, counter them etc.), but you cannot and shall not decide whether kicks should be used for the entire community.
Kicks will however make s/o ctf playable, something I can prove from the entire s/o ctf community.


Why would an admin put kicks in a ffa server when noone wants them? But who are you to decide whether people want them or not anyway?

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 05:51 PM
Then don't play NG CTF Al.

And stop commenting on it please, it's no different than me telling people how to play Star Wars Galaxies when I don't even have the game.

I'm serious Al; do you even realize that is what you are doing?

How can a person sit there and debate a topic they have no knowledge of?

Sure you can throw out the trite and cliché catch phrases like "it's a new game give it time" but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know there is a huge difference between "just playing" and really playing.

I mean I technically know every saber swing and combination of saber swings in no force Jedi outcast sabers, but by no means do I have the experience nor arrogance to sit here and lecture the upper echelon of that game type on the intricate dynamics of game play as it pertains to it.

That is exactly what you are doing Al.

This is neither your field nor area of expertise, yet you try to tell the people who have mastered this field that you know more about it than they do.

That is where the hostility is coming from towards you on behalf of these people and myself.

Like I said, I'm not going to go tell the guys in image (former Dsbr members) how to play all weapons CTF, so why are you here lecturing us on our game type?

And while you can make condescending remarks about our game type and try to dismiss it, the simple fact remains, on our side of the Ocean it is much more popular than the game type you prefer so yet again your opinions are holding no weight.

Pyro
09-22-2003, 06:33 PM
in other words stfu and gtfo our thread u wanker

fk | screed
09-22-2003, 06:40 PM
al just stfu
-noide

Spider AL
09-22-2003, 10:43 PM
Verbose as ever, Scrood. Spam. ;)

Like I said, I'm not going to go tell the guys in image (former Dsbr members) how to play all weapons CTF, so why are you here lecturing us on our game type?You really aren't paying any attention at all, wiener. I haven't told you or ANYONE how to play diddly squat. I haven't commented on the mechanics of NG CTF, I haven't debated whether NG CTF could be improved by kicking or not. Because, wait for it, here it comes again, blink and you'll miss it... :rolleyes:

That's all irrelevant. I've said it before and I'll say it again, what's RELEVANT is that you're asking for a rushjob patch. It doesn't matter WHAT's in it, all previous patches that were rushed out in the spectrum of games, Tribes, JO, etcetera, all those patches alienated a HUGE portion of the community, and the competitive community. Sure, a patch might make you personally very happy, just as there were those who loved 1.03. But that doesn't matter, does it. What matters is the larger community.

Look at the bigger picture for a change.

This is neither your field nor area of expertise, yet you try to tell the people who have mastered this field that you know more about it than they do.What? Not only are you wrong, you're wrong at the top of your voice. I've maintained that though I've played it, I've purposely AVOIDED competitive NG CTF throughout my JO "career" for want of a better word. How is that claiming that I know more about NG CTF than they do?

Ehh you're just full of rubbish tbh Wiener. You've said NOTHING pertinent in any of your posts, just pointless flame fests trying to get a rise out of people you're incapable of debating with rationally. :rolleyes:

You don't want kicks (for whatever reasons, your not good enough to use them, evade them, counter them etc.),Actually I used to quite like kicks. I was the proverbial kickwhore! I won most of my games using kick. I was what many people called a "lamer". I won though, in the final analysis.

Kick is irrelevant. What's relevant is that the premature patching that you're trying to force through could SERIOUSLY DAMAGE THE GAME. Open your eyes. Think 1.03.

But who are you to decide whether people want them or not anyway?Who are you to decide whether the game MUST BE PATCHED or not? Who are you to risk fragmenting the game the way 1.03 fragmented JO? It's a lot you take on yourself, isn't it. The fact is that you just don't care about anything except what happens to YOUR little corner.

Don't accuse others of hypocrisy if you're going to be guilty of multiple counts of it. Premature patching is stupid. It's a stupid idea, and it's damaging to game communities. This fact is well known and was established back in the days of 1.03 beyond the shadow of a doubt. It's not an ISSUE for you to debate. It's a historical and actual fact. Ask players from the days of 1.02. Ask players from the tribes community. Ask COMPETITIVE players. Ask old DSbr members how the rushed out 1.03 ruined their CTF. It ALIENATES people. It drives people, good people, SKILLED people, AWAY! It's not worth damaging the rest of the community in a blind attempt to improve the lot of your little clique.

Open. Your. Eyes.

g//plaZma
09-23-2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Who are you to decide whether the game MUST BE PATCHED or not? Who are you to risk fragmenting the game the way 1.03 fragmented JO? It's a lot you take on yourself, isn't it. The fact is that you just don't care about anything except what happens to YOUR little corner.

Hmmm... Weiner is not the only one who wants the game patched. The whole damn ff/so CTF community wants it patched. Look at all threads and posts that had to deal with how ff/so CTF is not playable.

Don't accuse others of hypocrisy if you're going to be guilty of multiple counts of it. Premature patching is stupid. It's a stupid idea, and it's damaging to game communities. This fact is well known and was established back in the days of 1.03 beyond the shadow of a doubt. It's not an ISSUE for you to debate. It's a historical and actual fact. Ask players from the days of 1.02. Ask players from the tribes community. Ask COMPETITIVE players. Ask old DSbr members how the rushed out 1.03 ruined their CTF. It ALIENATES people. It drives people, good people, SKILLED people, AWAY! It's not worth damaging the rest of the community in a blind attempt to improve the lot of your little clique.

Open. Your. Eyes.

How will patching CTF and CTF only affect other gametypes? We're not asking Raven to do anything to duel, FFA, TFFA or any other gametype besides CTF because at this moment, ff/so CTF is not playable.

Spider AL
09-23-2003, 12:57 AM
Hmmm... Weiner is not the only one who wants the game patched.That paragraph wasn't directed towards wiener. Please read more carefully.

How will patching CTF and CTF only affect other gametypes? We're not asking Raven to do anything to duel, FFA, TFFA or any other gametype besides CTF because at this moment, ff/so CTF is not playable.What these fellows are asking for isn't a CTF specific patch, let alone a NG CTF specific patch. They're asking for kick to be toggleable. Now that's a gameplay change, and gameplay changes when released prematurely, ie less than a month after the game's been released, are likely to RUIN the game. Plus, if Raven were to patch this request, they'd patch to cater to others too. This suggestion has its flaws, but it's not as silly as some other suggestions I've seen. Raven aren't expert players as far as I'm aware, they don't have time to waste becoming leet. So they can't make the same distinctions between bad suggestions and good suggestions that the more experienced players can.

So they'd patch em all in, or at least some of them. 1.03 once again. Unacceptable, I'm afraid.

If you were all lobbying for a No Guns CTF only patch, with emphasis on only, and if it only a: slowed the person down when they pick up the flag or b: added kick, I wouldn't even be here. It's the fact that this request would affect ALL game modes that makes it bad, that and the fact that if catered to, it would open the floodgates to even worse requests, as I previously stated.

dyehead
09-23-2003, 01:38 AM
OK, I've had just about enough.

I have read through 4 and a half pages of this thread, and here's what I've figured out.

Al has absolutely no need to be posting in this thread. If you don't like sabers only CTF, then please, find an all weapons forum to post in, your opinion really doesn't matter. If my grasp of the english language teaches me anything, it's that this thread is a plea to Raven to give server administrators the option of enabling kick on their server.

I, being a server administrator (LKM818.com Sabers only CTF 66.159.234.202) would love to have kick enabled on my server, because I have run around chasing the fc for 15 minutes while he absorbs and bounces from health pak to health pak.

I disabled all pickups, but that does not seem to be enough, with healers/energizers about to help him.

Once again, Al, you seem to have half a brain, but I believe your so-called 'non-existent' sabers only community seems to have at least 30 or so people telling you to go away. How does it feel to be hated? :eek:

If people don't like sabers only CTF, how come my server has been full from 8am to 3am every single day since wednesday when I got my pre-order copy of the game? How come nobody who has come to my server has said "bring back the guns!?" I'm afraid you've mistaken us for people who care about guns, or care about you. You make lots of nice posts, but to us, they're just wasted bytes, fractions of pennies wasted by your ISP by allowing you to upload information.

Jedi Academy was not designed to be completely separate from Jedi Outcast. Raven wanted to make money, so they made a new game for people to buy, to revive the old community with a new jedi game.

Kick is definitely a necessary tool for sabers only CTF. We would like the option for it.

If you don't agree, that's fine, great, we don't care. This thread is not for you, just like spandex is not for you. Go deepen the groove in your favorite bar of soap while dreaming of wookie bowcasters, but leave our S/O CTF discussions to those that play S/O CTF. kthx.

-=DyeHead

dyehead
09-23-2003, 02:13 AM
Oh yeah, forgot to say some other stuff.

Suiciding is lame, that is something that Raven did NOT put in the game for CTF abuse. I did post the IP of my server, if I see people suiciding in-game, they will be kicked after 1 warning. As soon as a mod comes out to police suiciding, it will be installed.

FK was mentioned earlier by a div3rse member. A member of FK was notorious for suiciding in my presence all the time, because he feared me, and did not want me to get stat points for killing him. out of all of his deaths, 90% of them were suicides. gg.

I'd like to see suiciding as a server side option as well, along with kick.

If you want to get in a flame war with me, I'm all for it, but do it on my forums at http://lkm818.com/phpbb2 as to keep the little kiddies from being offended.

[div3rse.syn]
09-23-2003, 02:16 AM
couldn't have said it better myself.

And stop your bitching AL. If people enable kick in other game types, that's their own choice.

FlashRam
09-23-2003, 02:20 AM
Dyehead, your comment on suiciding in a CTF match shows that you are a complete newb who couldn't possibly stand up to an FK member. Every single serious CTF clan suicides in CTF. In EVERY SINGLE ladder or tornament for CTF, full weapon or saber only, suicide is allowed. Please sit down newbie, and go back to your newb server.

Side
09-23-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
Oh yeah, forgot to say some other stuff.

Suiciding is lame, that is something that Raven did NOT put in the game for CTF abuse. I did post the IP of my server, if I see people suiciding in-game, they will be kicked after 1 warning. As soon as a mod comes out to police suiciding, it will be installed.

FK was mentioned earlier by a div3rse member. A member of FK was notorious for suiciding in my presence all the time, because he feared me, and did not want me to get stat points for killing him. out of all of his deaths, 90% of them were suicides. gg.

I'd like to see suiciding as a server side option as well, along with kick.

If you want to get in a flame war with me, I'm all for it, but do it on my forums at http://lkm818.com/phpbb2 as to keep the little kiddies from being offended.

Well i never found suiciding lame in CTF(and hell suicide added sum strat for CTF)im not saying it a "total must" 3 guys still can energize each others they dont need suicide,but it just speed up thing with suicide
But it ur server so i wont tell u how to run ur server so it a great idea to toggle suicide on/off

dyehead
09-23-2003, 02:26 AM
LMFAO...

Suiciding is nub. If you can't get back to your base fast enough, that's your own fault.

If I grip you while you're speed raging, and you suicide, aww too bad, take it and come back for more.

If you're too nub to stay on platforms and fall to your doom, you deserve to listen to yourself yodel down the crevice.

I had JO before it was officially released, and was #1 for 5 months straight on the first real sabers only ctf server (Matrix CPA) so eat me, nub. I have logged more JO hours than you, I can guarantee.

FK banned me from their server within 15 minutes for calling their leader a wuss for suiciding. Needless to say, he won't be playing on mine.

Suiciding = wussy, no matter how you slice it.

Side
09-23-2003, 02:29 AM
dude dont push it
Suicide isnt for wuss,u got that logic from duel

while ur playing ctf'ing ur goal isnt to kill sum ramdom guys jesus
ur not dueling

dyehead
09-23-2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by Side
Well i never found suiciding lame in CTF(and hell suicide added sum strat for CTF)im not saying it a "total must" 3 guys still can energize each others they dont need suicide,but it just speed up thing with suicide
But it ur server so i wont tell u how to run ur server so it a great idea to toggle suicide on/off

Strategy? I appreciate the civil response, Side, so I will reply civilly as well :)

I don't see binding a key to warp you back to base with full health/armor 'strategy,' I call it taking the cheap and easy way out of a bad situation. If you're down to 15 health, jump off a high ledge onto the ground and die. Fall down a hole, go try and stop a capper and die with some sort of honor... but warping back to base, man that's just cheap.

Side
09-23-2003, 02:34 AM
Honor?...ok i wont even reply to that
but again if u dont like suicide it ur opinion but going telling us it for wuss....

Mordred
09-23-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
If you're down to 15 health, jump off a high ledge onto the ground and die. Fall down a hole,

how is that really any different to /kill???

it's the same thing u, u killed your self, ok the /kill a few seconds faster but thats it

dyehead
09-23-2003, 02:38 AM
omg, I didn't notice before, hey side remember me? :) Senator Palpafag etc -=DyeHead=- :)

When I play CTF, I don't personally cap well. I go after the capper, or stop people from getting to my capper.

Fallen would come try to get my capper, and I'd grip him as he speed raged, he'd suicide, come back, rinse, repeat.

I realize that for those of you who are just zooming around the map, that suicide allows you to not have to run back and forth as much, as I imagine you do that plenty anyway, but isn't that kind of the point of the game? To run back and forth?

dyehead
09-23-2003, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by Mordred
how is that really any different to /kill???

it's the same thing u, u killed your self, ok the /kill a few seconds faster but thats it

Because Raven put that command to get you out being stuck, not being close to death or far from the flag carrier.

If you ask someone from Raven if suicide was meant for the purposes that people use it for, what do you think they will say?

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 02:41 AM
haha a dik

[div3rse.syn]
09-23-2003, 02:42 AM
if you don't want suicide fine, but it definately adds strategy to CTF. Why? Well, what if you notice that your FC's health is starting to get perilously low, he's calling for help, and nobody his helping? Suicide, rush to his aid, and go on your way. Ever play in a match as a returner? Then you should know the common situation when you finally do kill a FC, if the other team is any good, another player will IMMEDIATELY grab the flag. If you don't get back to your base almost INSTANTLY, you'll lose out on the chance to kill the fc while he's running (and hence most vulnerable). What if you have zero force, low hp, and need to get back to the flag platform asap? Granted its your own fault for getting in that situation, but you have to suicide and get back to the plat...

it adds a layer of strategy.

Side
09-23-2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
omg, I didn't notice before, hey side remember me? :) Senator Palpafag etc -=DyeHead=- :)[/i]
Yea i remember u,u accused me of scripting when i was using rage+dfa and i taught u how to do it as well lol,and i also remember u teaching zen how to "pull-kick" hehe
Originally posted by dyehead
When I play CTF, I don't personally cap well. I go after the capper, or stop people from getting to my capper.

Fallen would come try to get my capper, and I'd grip him as he speed raged, he'd suicide, come back, rinse, repeat.

I realize that for those of you who are just zooming around the map, that suicide allows you to not have to run back and forth as much, as I imagine you do that plenty anyway, but isn't that kind of the point of the game? To run back and forth?

Yea i do it plenty,and it proven to be very useful but like mordred says it kinda the same as using /kill u still spawn ramdomly across the map with full force+health

and btw =x= mod kinda fixed that,when u throw someone down a hole if he ever suicide ul still get point from killing that guy
instead of having a msg like "[div3rse.side] killed himself"
ul get a msg like this "[div3rse.side] was killed by =DyeHead=" so it pretty good for people that realy get piss off by people suiciding and u dont get point from killing him(again my apologize for my english grammar)

dyehead
09-23-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]
Granted its your own fault for getting in that situation


My point exactly. You are taking the cheap way out.

You don't see a defensive player in football suiciding and reappearing in front of the wide receiver, do you? They have to run their ass off and catch up to him.

Work your ass off to, the reward will be sweeter, because you will be l33ter.

[div3rse.syn]
09-23-2003, 02:49 AM
because it increases the intensity of the game, increases the pressure you're under, and makes it more fun to play.

dyehead
09-23-2003, 02:50 AM
Yeah! I remember you teaching me rage dfa, I used that a lot, it rocked.

At least we know that I don't suck though, *phew*

I think you were one of the first I saw using rage dfa..

Yeah I taught most people how to kick lol! I remember teaching Zen DFA back in 1.02.. man oh man.. just ask him :) He and I spent hours in duel servers, I taught him so much stuff..

i was dissapointed to see him binding a key to yaw with backstab though.. those were sad days..

Say hi to him for me!

BigFurryWhale
09-23-2003, 03:13 AM
Please bring kick back to ctf. k thx.

FlashRam
09-23-2003, 03:24 AM
Dyehead, while we are on the subject of honor, why don't you bow before engaging the FC? Then you can show him that you are a TRUE jedi with TRUE jedi honor.

[div3rse.syn]
09-23-2003, 03:54 AM
honor has no place in any sort of competition. It's not "what team comes out feeling fresh and shiny", it's "what team scores more points in the least amount of time". To think otherwise is to miss the point of gaming. Somtimes I wish this was just some random companys game that called light sabers "energy swords" and didn't assosciate itself with the Star Wars universe because it seems like this game is plagued more than any other game by people claiming some sort of honor system...

dyehead
09-23-2003, 03:54 AM
lol how can he see me while his back is facing me and he's bouncing around :)

fk | screed
09-23-2003, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
LMFAO...

Suiciding is nub. If you can't get back to your base fast enough, that's your own fault.



You sir obviously never played CTF with any one that was worth a damn. I am a returner, after I kill the flag carrier USUALLY theres someone there to recap it. Sooooooo what I do is /kill respawn at the base and try to stop the enemy flag carrier from getting back to his base. Also, I can defend that flag I just returned alot easier than running ALL the way back to my base.

dyehead
09-23-2003, 04:24 AM
Yes, I know all of the reasons to suicide, and I still have no desire to do it, nor do I accept the reasons to suicide as valid reasons to abuse a command used to solve a bug issue.

I played CTF with every major clan you can name.. div3rse, FK, =X=, NJA, you name it, I killed those people.

I suppose I could also be called a returner, but I also intercepted returners, and cappers along the way. Not once did I use suicide, and I was successful at what I did.

I am not calling anyone that suicides a newb, or stupid, I'm just saying that I consider it cowardice in the situations that I mentioned.

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 04:26 AM
screed I think that whole suicide rant was a joke.

At least I hope it was since /kill has been used in every single game of CTF going all the way back to quake 1...

Then again this is the world of star wars people, lots of weird things happen when they are around.

:eek:

dyehead
09-23-2003, 04:28 AM
Actually I am quite serious about it, Weiner Dog. If there is a way to disable it on my server, I will do so.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
Yes, I know all of the reasons to suicide, and I still have no desire to do it, nor do I accept the reasons to suicide as valid reasons to abuse a command used to solve a bug issue.

I played CTF with every major clan you can name.. div3rse, FK, =X=, NJA, you name it, I killed those people.

I suppose I could also be called a returner, but I also intercepted returners, and cappers along the way. Not once did I use suicide, and I was successful at what I did.

I am not calling anyone that suicides a newb, or stupid, I'm just saying that I consider it cowardice in the situations that I mentioned.

cowardice? in a game? yeah, maybe if someone just hides so they can't be killed...but killing THEMSELVES so they can do their job better? :rolleyes:

dyehead
09-23-2003, 04:41 AM
If you read the situations I posted earlier, such as gripping a speed rager, or when I would knock someone down and be 1/2 second from my DFA contacting their torso, they suicide.

My problem has mainly always been with one person, who most people really dislike, who would suicide whenever he came within range of me. I suppose that left a rather terrible taste in my mouth.

No one has answered the question as to what a raven developer would say that /kill should be used for.

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 04:45 AM
heh

To each their own I guess.

I guess it can be "abused" to some degree.

I've been kicked a couple of times and banned a while back but in all fairness to the server I was on, I abused the hell out of it and played like a bastard so I probably would have kicked myself too.

I am primarily a 1v1 player and as most of us do, I have a "by any means necessary" mentality when it comes to winning (hacking not included of course).

To me:

/kill
Drain a back up capper waiting for a grab
/kill
Repeat
/kill
Repeat
Watch him get pissed off because he has to roll back to the base (no gas for speed or absorb)
Watch him get gang banged by our guys who just respawned

is a perfectly acceptable tactic.

The way I look at it, if a capper has the grapefruits to wait in our base and stand on our flag stand, he better be ready for some nasty treatment.

But I know not everyone sees things like this.

In games like RTCW ET spawn camping is a big unwritten no-no but I do it and have 0 problems with people who do it to me.

I guess it just all boils down to how cheap and hardcore you want to get when you play.

Duels are a lot like this too.
Some people look at players who strafe jump around maps and use level 2 lightning as their only form of attack as being "gay" or cheap, but in reality it's pretty clever.

It's a perfectly sound strategy and if you can't adapt to it, you really can't criticize it but that's just how I look at things.

I know others don't see it that way though.


:mad:

The thing is while in "pub" matches I can agree with maybe not being a total bastard with the way you play, in ladder matches you better not screw around or expect any slack.

When I used to pub duel we would not "whore" all the time but in official matches all the nice guy crap went out the window.

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 04:46 AM
to go into spectate mode or change teams

if they really cared about it theyd fix it up in ja

FlashRam
09-23-2003, 04:47 AM
waaa waaa I didn't get the 1 point for the kill because he suicided!!!!!111111 COWARD!!!!111111

Pyro
09-23-2003, 04:51 AM
OH MY GAWDS WUT WOUD THE RAVEN DEVLPER SAY WUT WOUDK HE SAY AOBUT PTK OR THE LAME DRAIN WHORAGE OR RAGING DFA IN FFA OR DIREFCTUIONAL KICK OR... STFU WHO CAREAS WUT RAVEN DEVELOPER WOUJDKO SAY ACTUALY WHO CARES WAT U SAY STOP INSERTING NONSECNSCIAL ARGUMENTS THAT HAFNVE NO BERAJING ON QUESTION AT HAND A GAME IS WAHT THE GAMERS MADE IT ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT RAVEN COULED HVE FORESEN 95% OF TACTICES USED BY PEOPLE THAT HAVE PLAYED JO ALMSOT *TWO YEARS* AFTER RAVEN MADE IT? R U SERRIOUS? U THINK THEYD LOOK AT A DEMO OF ME FF DUELING AND SAY "OH I PREDICTED MOST OF MOVES HE IS DOING"? IF ITS IN THE GAME AND THEY DIDNT TAKE IT OUT LETS JUST ASSUME THAT ITS OK

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 04:51 AM
oh and /kill was in every quake based engine since well, quake 1.

(not sure if it was in doom).

for an "official" answer you would need to go to someone other than Raven, like John Carmack from id software.

in a nutshell it is there if you get stuck in a map and can't get out without a respawn.

it's also accepted as a bread and butter tactic in every quake engine based game of CTF man, sorry but it is looked at as being just part of the game like strafe jumping.

People did it in all 3 quakes, they did it in RTCW, EF, you name it.

dyehead
09-23-2003, 04:51 AM
Yeah well I have very strict rules on my server re: respect, language, racism, etc..

I can see where in a real match such strategy might be important, but on my server, I'd prefer it to be a fun-for-all kinda thing. No one cheaping someone else because they CAN.. know what I mean?

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 04:56 AM
omg do u slap ppl with academy mod for saying "fag" !1!1

Side
09-23-2003, 04:58 AM
Man this thread is so off topic now =/
but i seriously dont see why suicide is a coward act in s/o CTF(even in guns?)but again it ur server so u can do as u please

Rumor
09-23-2003, 05:01 AM
well that is your perogative. you try to provide a family atmosphere.

plus, its your server.

dyehead
09-23-2003, 05:06 AM
Thanks for understanding, guys.

Now let's get back on topic.

BRING BACK KICK!
*holds picket sign*

[D]Fugs
09-23-2003, 05:30 AM
Oh my word I've never heard so much claptrap in all my time. Spider AL, you are the biggest excuse for a competitive player I have ever had the misfortune to address. Any good/high level player wants MORE - more options, more features, more opponents. I think you just don't want kick because it will cramp your specific playing style.

Your few, repetitive, shallow points are based not on fact, as you would have us believe, but on your own, poorly rationalised personal opinion. Ordinarily, I wouldn't be here to indulge your drivvle, as it was becoming quite tedious, but we are discussing a game I love and many people here, including some of the cream of the JK2 community, are trying to be constructive for the good of the software, the community, and ultimately the developers. Your continued torrent of verbal diarrhea not only jeopordises the effectiveness of this thread, and hence the success of Jedi Academy itself, which still has a great potential, but I felt a personal urge to speak up because, quite frankly, I think you're an extremely poor ambassador for our country. In fact I'll go so far as to say you're a twit, and I have no wish for you to be associated with myself or the rest of the UK Jedi Knight community.

Intelligent, skilled gameplayers are trying to indicate actual specifics in current JA gameplay many offering solutions off-hand, mainly (not surpisingly due to the title of the thread) the return of kick. As an option. Now I just cannot believe for the life of me why people would be so opposed to an option being introduced into a new videogame. Arguments like "splitting the community" are ridiculous when compared to alternatives like creating mods, and if you think this game doesn't need a patch for one reason or another than you're very much mistaken. As good as Raven are at balancing, they're not stupid, and they realise that they cannot attain a perfect result first time, which if you think they have, are even more of a fool than you seem.

So please, enough with your completely irrelevant Quake1 axe analogies, or pie-in-the-sky suggestions, like "..updated engine.." or "..new effect of weapons.." What weapons exactly? What effects, specifically? A fifteen meter saber? There are NO NEW FORCE POWERS in this game, what the top players are telling you on this thread may be derived from 18 months play in a "different" game, but the experience is gained from a scenario with the same combat system: virtually identical weaponry and force powers and very similar saber moves. Your "adapt and overcome" argument is inadequate.

Now I didn't actually make this post just to get Spider to shut the smeg up; I wouldn't set myself such a fruitless task. I'd like to vouch for the return or kick, as it instantly add's to the game, it's a much loved move, it solves the CTF Flag Carrier problem, (for saber only and guns - why should we have to use guns to frag the flag carrier it's Jedi and I have a saber) and it will further incorporate the new "kill the enemy on the ground" moves, and the 3 different ways to get up from the knockdown.

So, maybe we should continue this discussion, in which your not welcome Spider AL, and try and find out why people don't like kick in Jedi Outcast, or don't like the idea of it in Jedi Academy. If it's because people found it difficult to do, and therefore could not compete with other players, maybe we should make it easier, like it is in JA SP. Here you don't need a double tap just hold direction and jump exactly like the wall grab, it's a less elitist skill but can be used to perform some brilliantly timed long range aerial attacks.

I'm sure a few will say "it's not in the movies" but hey, neither are the kata's and I don't see Obi Wan running along walls, or sideflippin' them for that matter. Then if we find out why the masses don't like the move (yeah ok we know they got owned by it all the time) then maybe we could change it a bit so it suits all our needs better. 1 health damage, 10% chance of knockdown, headshot required; whatever, you can see where I'm going with this.

Oh, and I expect we'll get the gun users complaining too, like Spider guy here, who's probably as happy as a pig in **** now he can run around with absorb and speed on, lobbing grenades at people with no virtually no chance of getting sabered apart from the odd thrown one.

:jawa

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 05:39 AM
Ouch, Al just got slapped with a large trout.

Serious though, this guy does make very valid (and well written) points.


I'm glad people do understand where all this is coming from and it's nice to see that some people are actually reading what is being posted rather than just skimming and spitting out old recycled responses from a year ago that have no bearing on this issue.

And Al, this guy admitted it, we all have said it, hell even Cjas admitted it, Jedi Academy is only a "new game" in name.

The overwhelming majority of the games content and game play dynamics are an identical port of Jedi Outcast, it's not just similar in the play structure but it's the exact same code.

1 new gun.
2 new stances with a few swings.
some nerfing on a lot of the old stuff.
new maps.
wall walk moves.

that's it man, nothing more.
rest is all Jedi Outcast ported over.

Time to join the rest of the real world and admit it in public as well, I know it's going to be hard to swallow your pride but I'm sure you can do it.

dyehead
09-23-2003, 05:50 AM
His pride is more like a horse-pill, though.. hehe

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
And Al, this guy admitted it, we all have said it, hell even Cjas admitted it, Jedi Academy is only a "new game" in name.

The overwhelming majority of the games content and game play dynamics are an identical port of Jedi Outcast, it's not just similar in the play structure but it's the exact same code.

1 new gun.
2 new stances with a few swings.
some nerfing on a lot of the old stuff.
new maps.
wall walk moves.

that's it man, nothing more.
rest is all Jedi Outcast ported over.

Time to join the rest of the real world and admit it in public as well, I know it's going to be hard to swallow your pride but I'm sure you can do it.

Wow, nice...you throw a huge insult at Raven, and yet you expect them to release a patch for you...have you considered why Mike decided not to post on this thread?

Rumor
09-23-2003, 07:01 AM
insult? where? i don't see him saying this game sucks.

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 07:13 AM
Raven spent the last year putting a large amount of effort into making JA, and then you call it a mod for JO...that is one of the worst insults you could say to a developer.

Side
09-23-2003, 07:18 AM
Effort? where u saw the effort from Raven?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
The overwhelming majority of the games content and game play dynamics are an identical port of Jedi Outcast, it's not just similar in the play structure but it's the exact same code.

1 new gun.
2 new stances with a few swings.
some nerfing on a lot of the old stuff.
new maps.
wall walk moves.

that's it man, nothing more.
rest is all Jedi Outcast ported over.

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 07:44 AM
Well, there are many things but I think I'll focus on the multiplayer engine differences, since you seem to be under the misconception that it's 80% the same as that of Jedi Outcast.

Some things which come to mind are:

It has a shader limit 16 times higher than that of Jedi Outcast. This probably means nothing to you as you aren't an editor...

The ICARUS 2 scripting engine has been implemented in Jedi Academy multiplayer. This probably means nothing to you as you aren't an editor...

There is now the ability to have vehicles in JA MP (at least in Siege...but it's still part of the JA MP code). It means that you can pilot an AT-ST, ride a Taun-Taun (and a speeder, a Rancor, a Wampa, and any animals/ridable things which people make) and you can fly X-wings/Tie fighters. Not all of these are actually used in the levels, but the functionality is there to be used in custom levels.


Those are some very big changes, but are hardly the only ones. I'm too tired to go into more detail, and a Raven person would be able to go into the changes best, anyway.