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View Full Version : ok real simple way to fix s/o CTF


Mordred
09-20-2003, 11:51 PM
i can see how its a problem in its current state.

so simple thing to do, is what other games have done in the past.

when u have the Flag u cant use force speed.
thats sorts the problem right away.

but Force Speed still has its uses.

just like for any of u UT player out there, use the trans to get in a grab it then run like hell to get back.

i think thats a good way to do it, i mean just from my point of view i never liked the Force Speed well carrying the flag, as the maps weren't even that big.

would have been the same in UT if u could translocate with the flag.


i dont know about u but i think not allowing force speed when carrying the flag (but can be used any other time) would improve CTF and sort out the current problem.

what do u think?

Mordred
09-21-2003, 01:53 AM
Come on im sure more of you must have a opinion on this, considering how heated the s/o CTF topics have got :)

Doctor Shaft
09-21-2003, 03:01 AM
This is no good because it does the one thing that S/O CTF players DO NOT want.... nerfing.

Nerfing, especially in a game about force powers and melee, is the LAST thing to do for a more competitive game.

The kicks and stuff are ALREADY out, and even if speed were removed just for the flag carrier, in the end, it would still create a watered down version of capture the flag. Besides, if the guy can still run at normal speed and block sabers at an amazing rate, all the while absorbing, being energized, and using protect occassionally, it will STILL be impossible to kill him. Trust me, the top players will find some method to protect the guy who can't move fast. All you need is a good body guard and two others doing the heal/energize method, and you're man is still invincible pending he plays the cards right.

Guardian Omega
09-21-2003, 03:02 AM
Only thing I thought is to enable strafe jump for non cappers........

[div3rse.jello]
09-21-2003, 03:11 AM
i think you should go feed urself to psycho pigs

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 03:12 AM
WRONG WAY TO FIX IT!

S/O CTF was so popular because of its fast paced gameplay. Taking out speed only makes it WORSE.

CaptainJackZ
09-21-2003, 03:38 AM
*nods in agreement with mythrice*

Mordred
09-21-2003, 12:56 PM
its not taking out force speed, just stopping u using it to cap the flag.

it would still have plenty of other uses.

but u say S/O CTF players dont want nerfing, but other players dont want the kick back in.

only other thing to do is put in the side kick for CTF Only.

altho to be honest i dont see how putting the kick back in will really help.

as u said with without speed they would still be unstopable. and as u can get back up far quick that u used to, what with the roll as soon as u hit the ground or the kcik back up.

even if u kick them over they going to be back up and running again before u get chance to get enough damage in

[fk]myth.
09-21-2003, 12:58 PM
I know just when u have the flag, and the answer is no. Then you have a much slower paced game and that is not the direction we're going. Was a good idea, and I'm glad at least somebody is thinking, but it won't work.

Jah Warrior
09-21-2003, 02:53 PM
OK, so how about making it so you do have force speed but flag carrier run at 75% of the speed of someone who is not carrying the flag? I think this would keep the pace, but logically you don't run as fast when carrying a great big flag...


kicking should NOT be the only way to kill a flag carrier.

Comm539
09-21-2003, 03:31 PM
We have a working method, why slow gameplay and change forces? Change one force then you want to change another and another.

From the point of view of a ctf newb, i think its far easier to dodge kicks than have nurfed speed and a gang of people running to bang me. As you say, in a clan match, this won't make any difference, just more fc defenders.

[ Don't mention the illegal beta. ] Bringing back s/o ctf gameplay and not affecting anyone else. Why's it so hard for people to agree with?!

Kurgan
09-21-2003, 05:07 PM
I thought the way to fix Saber Only CTF was to put JK2 style "kicks" back in the game?

Personally I prefer to play CTF with all weapons and SaberDamageScale at 2. But that's just me....

Rumor
09-21-2003, 05:31 PM
OMG I JUST HAD AN EPIPHANY!!

lets just put admin mods on the servers and use /amslap with a 30 second knockdown on the cappers! that should give us enough time to kill them with our sabers, but idk, its iffy.


:rolleyes:

Master_Payne
09-21-2003, 05:32 PM
I have seen games over an hour tied at 0, is that fast paced?

A good flager is already unbeatable with a good team in JO.

Want fast paced game: g_saberscaledamage* 2 + guns.

* or was damagescale?.

About s/o I think take out speed to the carrier will make the game even faster (because the flager dies sooner) and is very logical because he has a flag on his back.

noide
09-21-2003, 05:34 PM
50/50 chance i killing the fc if he was knocked down. you could have 2 guys energizing and 1 healer standing beside him constantly mashing the buttons and he probably wouldnt die lol.

Kurgan
09-21-2003, 05:42 PM
Yeah, saberdamagescale is nice.. makes sabers very deadly.

I assume that the S/O FF CTF (too many abbreviations!) people have already tried this and don't like it.

Am I right?

Just ramp it up so that sabers are 1 hit kills!

FlashRam
09-21-2003, 07:01 PM
"A good flager is already unbeatable with a good team in JO."

Untrue. Even Special, when he was in diverse, would get killed with Side heal whoring him, and the rest of diverse energize whoring him. JK2 was basically perfectly balanced in regards to s/o CTF. As for removing speed.....uh....exactly what Myth said. That was my favorite thing about CTF. The speed of the game.

FlashRam
09-21-2003, 07:03 PM
And kurgan, your suggestion is rather retarded. "Look! i'm running down this hallway holding down on forward and attack and i'm getting kills!!!!! I R UBER ELITE RETURNERZ!!!!1"

Mordred
09-21-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
We have a working method, why slow gameplay and change forces? Change one force then you want to change another and another.


well if u already have a working method in JA why do u need the kicks back? :)

but as other have said, even if the carrier could not use speed he would still be unstopable because of team mates healing and so on.

so even if u got the kicks back, his team would still heal him, and as i said earlier, u can get back up almost straight away in JA, so dont see how its going to make better, apart from tuning it back to Kick Only CTF :)

Comm539
09-21-2003, 07:36 PM
We had a working method (kicks) in JK2 (but none in JA)
After a Knockdown in JA, you can jump up, but you could also do this in JK2. Fc's were still killed thopugh. The kick is a way to stop a person who doesn't want to be stopped. Even with a heal whorer, if you stop someone, your entire team can gangbang him and no amount of healing can prevent the fc's death.

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 07:36 PM
#1 taking stuff out/nerfing is what made this problem; let's not go in that direction.

#2 Full Force saber only players crave one thing that ff/so has that no other game type has:

An almost perfect balance of complexity and fast paced action.


You have the speed and fast paced nature of a full weapon game (guns) and none of the slow, long, boring, drawn out pace found in No Force saber only games.

But on the same hand you have none of the sloppy "random splash damage shot spamming" that is found in gun games and yet, you still have the refined and precise combat that is found in saber only games.

I agree that kicks should not be the only way to kill cappers.

As I have mentioned before the default damage cvar for saber only games needs to be at 2.

The force restrictions on specials needs to be lifted.

Kicks need to be implemented for all stances, and not the useless staff kicks. I'm talking the double tap/side kicks, even if they are only available in single/dual stances.

The line of sight restriction needs to be lifted off grip.

All of those open the flood gates for combo development, saber kills and many other things we can and will create if we are given the chance to.

That is really the core problem, it's like Raven took Jedi Outcast, renamed it Jedi Academy but before it went public, they shackled and restricted everything.

It's not a new game with scores and scores of new material to learn. It's the same old game with an 800 pound ball and chain around it's ankle and all we are asking is it be unlocked.

FlashRam
09-21-2003, 07:43 PM
Well said

Ildon
09-21-2003, 07:52 PM
Perhaps adding a very slight encuberance while carrying the flag, including a slight adjustment to the speed of your "force speed" running, may be the answer.

If you took away speed while carrying the flag, it would suck. It isn't a problem, and all the complaining about how something was overpowered and the fact that la actually listens, ruined Jedi Knight 2, a game where players with talent, skill, and intelligence were once able to dominate, but now can easily be pwned by an idiot running around arbitrarily swinging their saber at nothing.

This game already sucks as is, but let's try and suggest things that might make it better, and not by nerfing it.

Comm539
09-21-2003, 07:55 PM
This is basically the same code from JK2. The kicks were there in the <illegal pre version we are forbidden to mention>. These kicks worked in JK2, would work in JA and would solve the entire complaint. Raven has disabled them. We just ask for a patch to reenable them with a command (so they're toggleable).

Ildon
09-21-2003, 08:11 PM
'twould be nice to have a fully customizeable server client. to disable different guns, saber types, force powers, abilities/moves, and so on. would stop a lot of complaining.

Mordred
09-21-2003, 09:09 PM
only one problem with all this custom games stuff, seem like a good idea yes, but then lots of people want competitive game play, but if everyone starts setting up servers different ways u are going to have problems finding one u like, or u get used to one type, go some where else and get owned because it set up totally different.

and it will just slipt the community even more.

i will and admit im not fan of the kicks, i would use them if someone was slicing into the side of me but thats about it.

it just got to the point it wasn't saber only it was kick only, everyone used to just kick grip, kick, grip, kick grip and so on, or just keep kicking and trying to saber u well u were on the floor.

it just got boring. then came all the admin mods and the chat rooms, and i just stopped playing, and i just dont want JA to go that way again.

but the other thing here is CTF is a Team game, so why work as one and get some Saber Staff users to be FC stoppers?

but i guess as a last resort they put the side kick in for CTF only and have it do no damage, just knock down, so that the staff kick is the only kick with any damage, as it is thier alt attack insted of saber throw (yes i know u can throw it with one blade turned off)

Ildon
09-21-2003, 09:29 PM
But it would sure stop a lot of complaining, and there's nothing preventing anyone from throwing up a server of their own.
Except that most of the people would throw up servers on their crappy connections and wonder why people don't join their "999 ping" servers...Oh, well.

Mordred
09-21-2003, 09:36 PM
Exactly, not everyone can, plus if everyone did set up thier own server, who's going to play on it, just going to have lots of empty servers because everyone has one of thier own, with thier own set up


Also this post has been viewed 247 (at time of posting) and only 20 votes.

seem to me most people could not give a crap about S/O CTF
(altho could be they just dont give a crap about the poll :) but then why look at it then not vote?)

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Mordred


Also this post has been viewed 247 (at time of posting) and only 20 votes.

seem to me most people could not give a crap about S/O CTF
(altho could be they just dont give a crap about the poll :) but then why look at it then not vote?)

No offense but the majority of people who are regulars here are, well.. fanboys and not really serious/good players.

The competitive community does not really come to "fan sites" like Lucas Forums.


Not trying to be mean but it’s hard for us to “get along” with people who respond to posts about game play mechanics with comments like “Well kick spammers are gay and lame cuz in Episode 2 when Yoda…” if you know what I mean.

(No offense meant to you, I am just speaking in general).

The only reason you are seeing these posts from these people is due to us knowing that the guy from Raven checks these boards.


I can assure you though, FF/SO combat is the single most popular competition mode in the history of Jedi Outcast and have had more ladders, leagues and professionally sponsored tournaments than any other game type.

Guns, no force dueling, none of them have had even close to the number of ladders, leagues and competition player activity FF/SO has in the last year and half.

Mordred
09-22-2003, 12:10 AM
Well i can see where your coming from there, im not much of a forum go'er myself, it rare i do and i dont stay round for long.

but i wasn't talking about FF/SO games in general, i just ment the one type s/o ctf.

but as i have posted else where, the real problem does not stem from having no kick (ok would be usfull in s/o CTF) but the fact that heals/drains are to strong and sabers are to weak (for the most part)

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:03 PM
No, the problem is that there are no ways to stop a runner.
Imagine you have the flag. You don't want to get killed at ANY cost, so you run away from everyone. You also have a healer and an energizer, so you can run infinitely.
Ptk, kick, pk, rage dfa, grip kick, were ways to stop the fc so you can finish him off with your saber. The problem we have is that there are no ways to stop the fc in order to kill him.

Mordred
09-22-2003, 04:09 PM
i was speaking in general there for all modes, but i did say that kick would be useful in CTF.

and if they want to put a no damage side kick back into CTF only im all for that.