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[fk]mediablitz
09-21-2003, 06:19 AM
Ok, now that i'm off to an ignominious start, JA was made for eyecandy star wars drooling darth maul wannabe's. It is absurdly obvious. Even the serious NF Saber Only guys i've talked to have said that all of the skill was taken out of saber dueling. But....isn't this what the RPG newbies (who make up 80% of the player base) wanted? Were not the vast majority of JK2 servers basically a bunch of people standing around doing nothing but gawk at their star wars skins who punished anyone who dared fight or play with skill? Finally, an answer to their prayers! No longer will they get crushed on their server by a player who is on a level of skill that is simply more intricate then theirs! why? because there are no intricate levels of skill to this game. It's all obvious and useless techniques, where the end result is two people flailing away at each other to see who gets the most lucky saber block rolls. That's assuming they actually fight and try to kill each other, that is. If one of them decides to be cheeky and run for it, god help you if you want to finish them off. In short, the RPG newbies got just what they wanted. A simple star wars game with no real depth where they won't get owned by a superior player, because the game play is too frivolous for any type of real skill.

Oh, and that skinwalker admin is a total dork. They locked the topic he posted on, so I will reply here. He said something about good players being nerds with no life. This seemed ironic considering he is an administrator on a star wars forum.

JaledDur
09-21-2003, 06:28 AM
I agree with a lot of that, but not anything related to flaming anyone, since I don't want to get involved. But that IS the problem (levels of skill). As I have said in other threads lots of servers are taking force regen time to 0 or some absurdly low value to allow for constant spam of the special moves. There is no skill performing one of thse moves, you just click two buttons in close proximity to each other at about the same time and wala, you're 1337.

ASk
09-21-2003, 07:35 AM
mediablitz, you had your warning. You chose to ignore it. Face the consequences

cheeto101
09-21-2003, 07:44 AM
Bleh, raven wanted to make the game more accesable to all audiences. And they succeded, now its ok for a casual player to sit down, play a good game of mp and Win once in awhile.

Dont like it, go back to JO (that would seem to be the best option anyways, or wait for a mod that will change JA to be more like JO). Thats not meant to be a flame, or a comment to be taken offensivly, just common sense.
I understand you hardcore players are upset, but truth be told, you are the minority, and the corps make more money off the majority.
So just give it a few months, and some mod will come along and make all your dreams come true.

Master William
09-21-2003, 09:09 AM
You are right in many ways, but wrong aswell.
No point in me posting this now, because you are banned.

I am too very disappointed in Raven, I was atleast.
Why couldn't they make a game where the sabers hit like in KOTOR? Not a RPG turnbased game, but where the sabers actually hit, and you gain skill over time.

I don't want to be owned by a guy called Padawan with Grip.
So, if I had the rank of Sith Master for an example, I would easily have taken care of this guy.

And the veterans who played it long was the ones with the greatest skills, in their mind, and in their character.

This is what I think...

NITEMARE
09-21-2003, 01:06 PM
unfortunately there is no other game with a similar atempt at sowrd fighting. actually it's ravens masterpiece if some one would dare to ask me...

any comparison to KOTOR stinks, since it's not a real time action game. the animations might look good but you don't really control anything during the fight but the next attack or so, what do i know...

g//plaZma
09-21-2003, 01:28 PM
Media just got banned for telling the most truth I've seen on this forum about this game. (With the exception of weiner dog's thread)

Tie Pilot
09-21-2003, 03:07 PM
any comparison to KOTOR stinks, since it's not a real time action game. the animations might look good but you don't really control anything during the fight but the next attack or so, what do i know...

I wouldnt mind a Kotor style fight system on a Star Wars galaxies, it doesnt have to be turnbased...kotor wasnt really turned based anyway unless you wanted it to be.

Now back on topic:

The saber in jedi Academy i know nothing about,havent got game yet. but this news is not making me want it very much, unless siege mode is good,is it??. maybe raven should take a leaf out of chop shops increased saber damage server book and make that damage standard, although that opens the way to Blue spammer spawn campers!!!!:eek:

StormHammer
09-21-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Media just got banned for telling the most truth I've seen on this forum about this game. (With the exception of weiner dog's thread)

Let's get one thing straight here, right now. No one gets banned for stating their opinions about anything. He got banned for persistently flaming, after ignoring warnings about his conduct. Don't try and twist the truth of the matter. :tsk:

LightningBaron
09-21-2003, 03:39 PM
i can see why people are abit annoyed, even if you are using classic single sabre its still alot different to JO as to the amount of skill required and how often sabres pass through people without causing damage... and that sometimes annoy me even in SP. but but then, if you prefer JO why not carry on playing it? i dont think JA would work with the fast paced fighting styles of double-bladed and duel sabres if it were the same as JO simply because the blades are spinning round absolutly everywhere... noone would stand a chance

Comm539
09-21-2003, 03:42 PM
Its true that levels of intricity have been removed.

Collision blocking is obismal: You hit when it should block, it blocks when you should hit. Wheres the timing to attack just after he swings and jump away after you attack to block a counter? There is none.

There is no combo limit of duel sabers and saber staff. Theres a 3 swing limit on red stance, but someone just needs to spam duel or staff and they kill you.

I'm hoping these would be adressed without thought in a patch. Maybe making single saber have more damage than duel/staff and put a combo limit of staff and duel saber swings. Fix the collision blocking too.

btw, any post which shows the mods to be wrong or look foolish seems to be closed ie. http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112138

Comm539
09-21-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by cheeto101
Bleh, raven wanted to make the game more accesable to all audiences. And they succeded, now its ok for a casual player to sit down, play a good game of mp and Win once in awhile.

Dont like it, go back to JO (that would seem to be the best option anyways, or wait for a mod that will change JA to be more like JO). Thats not meant to be a flame, or a comment to be taken offensivly, just common sense.
I understand you hardcore players are upset, but truth be told, you are the minority, and the corps make more money off the majority.
So just give it a few months, and some mod will come along and make all your dreams come true.


If the competetive community dies = no ladders = no outside interest = raven doesn't make as much money. If games are competetive, other gamers are interested and buy it. That also means they probably won't bother to buy a sequel.
If only 'casual' gamers are left, theres only a few people who 'causally' happened to be playing at the same time. Without the more skillful, competetive players, JA will die.

cheeto101
09-21-2003, 05:10 PM
perphaps eventually, but fact remains that way over 50 percent of the people who buy games (especially star wars and other movie liscenced games) are not competative gamers. And honestly, how much money will JA be makin a year from now??? Not much. It doesnt really matter to Raven how much longevity the game has, they make the most money within the first 6 months then everythin after that is just a bonus.(Granted Half life was an exception to this rule, but thats because of the mods that were created for it, not the game itself, perphaps this will be the case with JA, only time will tell (i kina doubt it though).)

Heh, now granted after this 6 month period, maybe raven will go after the hardcore gaming comunitee and patch the game up to fit your needs, i dunno.

And no ladders doesnt mean too much in the system that ravens got goin. The system is nothing compared to the easily accesable system of Battle net (which gets even the most casual player involved quickly and painlessly). Finding decent ladders and competative leagues takes a little time and effort. And most casual gamers either dont know how to find them, or simply dont care about them.

So really, in conclusion, most of the money made by Raven will be from the casual gamers, who dont really care about competative gaming. Sure i mean, hardcore players may be turned off due to JA's simplicity, but you guys are the minority, and as much as it sucks, i dont think ravens gonna cater to your guy's ideas of decent gameplay. Theyre gonna stick with an easily accesable system where a 6 year old can pick it up and play with it,

NITEMARE
09-21-2003, 05:31 PM
duel ladders and leagues are doomed since jk2. it is futile i fear. like you pro gamers experienced the saber code is not suited for accurate duels. who ever specializes on saber only will soon find out how often the hitdetection fails. that seems to be a decision by raven because of netcode stability or whatever. i stil hope for a change tho. we'll see about that when the SDK comes out. i'm sure that some coders will look for a sollution. i know one coder who dug real deep into the saber code, but he just got more and more frustrated. mabe raven knows a sollution.
if it would produce to much lag while playing with a larger number of players or other minor things, we could switch to a better, more single player like hitdetection, but keeping it small.
i think that the future of competitive saber specialists depends on this issue. to bad, JO and JA had the potential to be the next counterstrike in terms of player numbers...

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Let's get one thing straight here, right now. No one gets banned for stating their opinions about anything. He got banned for persistently flaming, after ignoring warnings about his conduct. Don't try and twist the truth of the matter. :tsk:


Yet we have AXVegeta calling people "fags" and telling them to **** off every other post in the thread I started:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111826

He’s been reported to a moderator and yet no one does a thing?

Look I know media can be a little abrasive at times, but let's cut through the B.S. here for a second and call a spade a spade.

The entire full force saber only competitive community has been shafted by all of the nerfing in this release.

All we are trying to do is bring these problems to the attention of Raven.

We know Mike G. comes here and that is why you are seeing these posts.

Now are some of us losing our tempers?

Yes, but keep in mind we have people who are, pardon the expression, really, really crappy and horribly unskilled players constantly telling us "how to play" and it is annoying as hell because half of them don't even know what we are even talking about yet they always feel the need to chime in with trite catch phrases like "give it time".

I mean no offense people, but when are you going to wake up and realize this is not a new game with scores and scores of new content to be learned?

This is 85% Jedi Outcast.
All the same moves, physics and strategies still apply because it's basically the same damn game.

The only problem and our major complaint, is they put even more restrictions and "nerfs" into this quasi game of Jedi Outcast.

It's like patch 1.05 with new maps and models and with even more nerfing.


No one is saying "OMG TAKE THIS MOVE OUT" or "OMG I CAN"T WIN I NEED X POWER BACK".

That would be whining.

We are saying, why for the love of God did you people not figure out after 2 botched patches that nerfed things to the point of being useless did you go and take the same game and nerf it even more?

Now do you people understand where we are coming from?

Comm539
09-21-2003, 08:19 PM
Ironically i have seen vegeeta on a ctf server and he is bad @ss skript0r y0 (which isn't a complaint (skripters are easir to beat than a normal kicker) just a remark at how sad people can be to try to look good at a game.)
Why has vegeeta not been banned for radomly flaming our requests, but you ban media for responding to a moderator calling players with more skill "lifeless nerds?"

Talstar
09-21-2003, 08:35 PM
I never posted here before but I have been reading these forums a bit and thought I should speak my mind

Now jedi academy does need changes IMO, heck it don't even seem like it was made for the FPS crowd so...

#1) Sabers should do around 50% more damage.

#2) To make up for the lack of skill the saber attacks use, speed them all up... Don't have it so people use a kata and hope others will walk into it and so on. Make it so they are done much quicker, so people have to react to things much faster. In fact... speed up the whole game by at least 25%.

Now I know #2 is not the same as re-doing all the combat over to something totally different and better, yet... it is a change that can be done easy, that the company would prolly consider doing. Asking for a complete re-working of the entire combat system is never going to happen IMO.

the weiner dog!
09-21-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Ironically i have seen vegeeta on a ctf server and he is bad @ss skript0r y0 (which isn't a complaint (skripters are easir to beat than a normal kicker) just a remark at how sad people can be to try to look good at a game.)
Why has vegeeta not been banned for radomly flaming our requests, but you ban media for responding to a moderator calling players with more skill "lifeless nerds?"


Welcome to the world of "agree with the clueless trite catch phrase spouting masses and you don't get banned".

Most of the people who are saying “give it time” or “you could not have possibly mastered the game yet” were horrible players in Jedi Outcast.

I’ve seen and played against/with many of the regulars/moderators posting these comments over the last year on a few occasions and to be honest I really wish they would stop to consider that we (the competitive players) are and have been, quite a few steps ahead of them in terms of skill and ability to dissect and then create strategy for these games.

Being that so much of this games basic core content is identical to Jedi Outcast, we are still leaps and bounds ahead of them, yet they feel the need to lecture us on game play issues as if they knew anything about them or ever did.

My personal favorites are these posts:

“I don’t have the game yet but you guys need to <catch phrase about whining here>”


Or:

I never played multi player in Jedi Outcast, I only played single player but you need to <catch phrase about whining here>”


I said it before and I’ll say it again…

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed the lack of elite/ranked/top league-ladder players defending the decision to nerf this game even more and also arguing that it is now more complex and requires a greater level of skill to play?

Nah, must be my imagination. I’m sure they all came here and I missed it.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Why has vegeeta not been banned for radomly flaming our requests, but you ban media for responding to a moderator calling players with more skill "lifeless nerds?"

If you ask me, I'd say he should be banned as well (along with some certain other people), but I'm not in a position to do that.

However, you do not insult the moderators here, period. What Skinwalker said was not aimed at you, while some people have gone way into ad hominem territory long ago.

Talstar
09-21-2003, 08:55 PM
Also I agree with the thread poster except on the part where he said: "RPG newbies (who make up 80% of the player base"

To be honest I almost never see anyone playing jedi academy roleplaying much, and the VERY FEW I seen are bigtime first person shooter fans (hardcore type). So the point is most of the people I see see are of the FPS type, some just happen to like start wars as well. So I would guess that there is about 10% that are of the anti-skill type playing jedi academy.

So why on earth would they try to target the type of players that would rather play Star Wars Galaxies instead Jedi Academy? Heck most of those types of players always tell a FPS crowd to go back to their First Person Shooter games when we even talk about combat in their roleplaying type game like Star Wars Galaxies.

Overall the word is spreading fast that this game is not good after the first few days of playtime. This needs to be fixed ASAP.

And I really don't understand why the thread poster was banned. Was he really that bad? I just don't see it. Seems more like a personal thing than anything he said... since I seen far worst from others who are still posting here.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Talstar
And I really don't understand why the thread poster was banned. Was he really that bad? I just don't see it. Seems more like a personal thing than anything he said... since I seen far worst from others who are still posting here.

Read the last paragraph, and look for other posts he has made.

Talstar
09-21-2003, 09:07 PM
K I never read any of his other threads I think (not sure). So I judged it based on this one...

Anyway about the part where he said: "He said something about good players being nerds with no life. This seemed ironic considering he is an administrator on a star wars forum."

I happen to agree with him on this one. I consider myself a very good player, but I'm not a nerd. I'm a casual player (so I have a life) who don't have time for MMORPGs. If anything, the nerds are the roleplayers who need to roleplay being good, instead of really being good.

g//plaZma
09-21-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
If you ask me, I'd say he should be banned as well (along with some certain other people), but I'm not in a position to do that.

However, you do not insult the moderators here, period. What Skinwalker said was not aimed at you, while some people have gone way into ad hominem territory long ago.

Hmmm... What Skinwalker said was not aimed at him?

Originally posted by SkinWalker
The biggest problem with JK2 MP was RPG/emote garbage that sucked up all the servers and got in the way of gameplay, and the so-called experts that had no other life than to perfect their kicking style so they can run around and show everyone how elite they were.

Sounds pretty much aimed at anyone who used kicks at all and really cared about if they won or lost.

Well, I guess it's OK for moderators to flame at members but it's not really OK for members to flame at moderators. I mean who are we to argue anyways? Just a bunch of n00bs who used to use "teh lame swift kickz to the fase" in JK2.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Talstar
Anyway about the part where he said: "He said something about good players being nerds with no life. This seemed ironic considering he is an administrator on a star wars forum."

I will not answer on Skinwalker's behalf, but know that that was not what he said.

He said people who kick-whored all day long had no lives. Not sure if he said they were nerds as well, you will have to take it up with him.

Talstar
09-21-2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
I will not answer on Skinwalker's behalf, but know that that was not what he said.

He said people who kick-whored all day long had no lives. Not sure if he said they were nerds as well, you will have to take it up with him.

Oh, I guess I should not believe everything I read then lol. I took his word for it since I'm not up on everything posted here.

C'jais
09-21-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Sounds pretty much aimed at anyone who used kicks at all and really cared about if they won or lost.

No, it was not aimed at him.

Skinwalker thinks that the two extremes in playing had turned JO into a bad playing experience for the average player - the "Emote Mafia" and the kickwhores. Notice that Skinwalker probably used kicks as well, but he's angry at the ones who used it to the exclusion of everything else and I'm bound to agree with him. It wasn't very fun playing with those guys (at least not on duel servers, can't speak for others). Due to spamming the kick, it actually invalidated using other weapons and thus dumbed down the game.

Well, I guess it's OK for moderators to flame at members but it's not really OK for members to flame at moderators. I mean who are we to argue anyways? Just a bunch of n00bs who used to use "teh lame swift kickz to the fase" in JK2.

Take it to the admins.

Talstar
09-21-2003, 09:31 PM
Ahh ok I see it now...

"and the so-called experts that had no other life than to perfect their kicking style so they can run around and show everyone how elite they were."

Not as bad as the thread starter made it out to be, yet it's still not good either. The problem is where he said they had "no other life"

My guess is these players prolly beat him often in the game, which seems to bother him a bit. Now I never played any jedi knight game except jedi academy, so I don't know the whole kick issue very well, so I won't get into it. What I do know is I'm very good at First Person Shooters and people who are, don't play as much as many may think. I think it's just some people have a fast reaction time and good hand eye coordination. Which explains why some people are good after the first day playing (not spending their lives in front of the game).

Anyway on a different note, does anyone know anything about a lightning bug where people die or get teleported in 1 hit?

Also anyone know if a patch is coming anytime soon? And what may be in it?

Feyd
09-21-2003, 09:57 PM
whatever man. i kicked booty on outcast multiplayer, and i kick some major arse on this too. And if you ask me, I don't see what skill was involved in outcast. I think you have to be MORE skilled to do good at this one. No more can you just push people down on the ground and turn around and backslash em. You have to actually be skilled in the actual art of saber combat, not just be able to press the jump key very quickly when you bring your saber down in heavy stance, so that you can execute a one hit kill. That was what i hated about outcast...EVERY server was crowded with people just JUMPING back and forth doing that stupid downward slash heavy stance move. God talk about annoying. I was good at that because i knew i had to be to face all the cheap people that exploited those moves to the fullest, but now i'm glad that i can actualy work on my regular saber combat skills. Although there is some truth to what you say. It is SO much easier for people to use dual sabers to get kills, but its not impossible to face them with a single saber. I myself am not good enough to regularly use it yet and win on a server, but i saw one guy the other night who had a single saber and he owned everyone, even me with my dual lightsaber and all the cheap skillz i possess from jedi outcast, AND my grip-whoring ways, without even having to stoop to my level or anyone else's levels of cheapness. That guy kicked butt. So yes, i believe whole heartedly that skill plays a part.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 04:00 PM
The biggest problem with JK2 MP was RPG/emote garbage that sucked up all the servers and got in the way of gameplay, and the so-called experts that had no other life than to perfect their kicking style so they can run around and show everyone how elite they were.

This thread offends 'so-called' experts.

As I stated, media's reply was in response to this:

He said something about good players being nerds with no life. This seemed ironic considering he is an administrator on a star wars forum.

I'm sorry, but this reply hardly warrants a ban.
Also, if you are going to ban someone for responding to a flame, then you must also ban the flame starter, in this case, Skinwalker.
This is why it seems ok for moderators to flame and shout abuse, but regular uses, merely asking for a fix for their gametype (which wouldn't affect ANY other gametype) have to withstand abuse.

lilJedi
09-23-2003, 02:54 AM
you whiners who talk about skill and what not are sad and pathetic. you sound like 8 year old kids outside in the dirt pitching marbles. if you do not like the game do not play it. return it...

to say that they dumbed down this or dumbed down that.....is nonsense...the game plays almost like jedi outcast...
I can't believe you would waste time saying that nonsense. No one would make a game they didn't think people would like.
they make the game the way they think the majority will like it.

SkinWalker
09-23-2003, 09:59 PM
First off, sorry I haven't posted in this thread until now... I had a couple of papers due for two different Anthropology classes.....

Next, I'd like to point out that at no time in the "other thread" did I say any LucasForums member had "no life." What I said was accurately quoted by some generous individual above, so I'll refer you to that. The context was missing, however.

C'Jais was correct in assuming that I was referring to two extremes entities in the game that appeared to ruin it for the casual JK2 gamer. I hastily typed the post and should have included the word "appeared" in the original...perhaps it would have saved a little grief.

Still, if Media took it personally, then perhaps he fit into one of those extreme entities. I don't know. I won't make any assumptions there.

I didn't get to play JK2 more than once or twice each week for an hour or so... sometimes more, sometimes less. What I observed was that in the last few weeks, gameplay suffered. I would join Team FFA games where people would sit around performing emotes and chatting. They would get angry and kick/ban anyone who attempted to fight. I also observed that in some games, particularly saber-only full-force, you would see individuals that relied solely on the kick to get the job done.

I think that many players were forced to adapt to these extremes in order to play. Accept the emotes, learn to kick/counter-kick. Period.

The one extreme looked at the kickers as "whores," "lamers," and "spammers" and seemed to see themselves as "legitimate." The kicker extreme seemed to refer to the emote extreme as "RPG-Lamers" and a few other words that will earn astricks in place of letters. They seemed to see themselves as the "expert" players.

I say it's all relative. I say that anyone who can become extremely proficient at a video game spends a lot of time practicing. While that seems to preclude other activities of life, perhaps "no other life" was a bit harsh. But if you took it to the level of offense, perhaps (I said 'perhaps') there's something to it. That's not a flame, but an observation.

But critique of gameplay wasn't the real point of my post there. It was critique of the way people were talking to each other up to that point in a thread that could otherwise have been useful. Unfortunately, what my comment did, was justify the inappropriate comments of those that preferred to use disrespectful tone, flames, hateful remarks, and general flames. The apparent goal of Media, et al, was to flame not discuss.

If after reading this, you still take offense to my comments in the 'other thread,' PM me and I'll be happy to discuss it with you. I think you can even send my an email by clicking on my profile. Either way, disrespect to any member of Lucas Forums is and was not intended.