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View Full Version : How to stop an fc ("kicks" in CTF)


Comm539
09-22-2003, 05:51 PM
There seems to be some arguemnets against featuresbeing toggleable so s/o ctf can become workable. To repeat, they would be toggleable, so you only have them back if you want them.


Dfa no longer requires force to implement
Forward and side kicks reintroduced
out of los gripping reintroduced
pull throw kick reintroduced


These are necessary to stop the fc in s/o ctf games, so you can finish him with w/e new strategies you like. Since there are no new ways to stop a player who wishes to 'run', then s/o ctf can only be fixed by adding the old features.
If you disagree with this fair patch (you only have them if you want them), then please answer:

How to kill an fc who doesn't want to be stopped

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 06:32 PM
1-It is an entirely new game.

2-Give it some time it's only been out a few days.

3-It is not Jedi Outcast, the same things won't work.

4-Learn and adapt.

5-How can you say you have mastered it yet?



Ok guys, I just shot down your cliché catch phrases, no give us an answer:

Waits...
Waits...
Hears crickets chirping...
Waits...

Comm539
09-22-2003, 06:39 PM
lol....waits....

megafu
09-22-2003, 06:43 PM
saberthrow then pull/push. Don't think this will slow them down, but it does do some pretty good damage.

I totally agree with all the other posts you have posted, but haven't seen this said.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 06:45 PM
This is pull throw which i think was taken out too. But it won't slow them down and with a dedicated healer/energizer, its pointless.

C'jais
09-22-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Ok guys, I just shot down your cliché catch phrases, no give us an answer:

No, you listed the catchphrases, you didn't even so much as try to answer them.

*sigh*


This is not our problem, but you make it seem as if it is. The burden is on you and you alone - people happy with the status quo couldn't care less, but some of us are actually trying to help anyway.

The very hostile "Fix it or we'll leave!" attitude isn't going to sit well with Raven either, and frankly, neither I nor most other people aren't going to care if the s/o CTF community vanishes overnight - it's only a fraction of the playerbase.

You're a very vocal fraction, I'll give you that, but interesting parallels could be drawn to the whole 1.03 issue, where a very vocal minority of people wanted a patch so badly, which resulted in said patch ruining the gameplay.

And where does this lead us? That the vast group of average players do not, and feel no need for a patch currently, while you are screaming your heads off. If you get Raven to make this, good on you - but if not, all the better for the rest of us who don't want it.

Th4tguy
09-22-2003, 06:51 PM
I geuss u could get 5 ppl to throw their sabers all at once and have a sixth person pull and then they are dead:rolleyes: ...now all u have something like ts or ventrillo for everyone on ur team make sure they are all around the fc. And of course if u were in a match that would require ur whole team plus 1 person unless u r playing 6vs6.

megafu
09-22-2003, 06:52 PM
i think it's still there, used it, gotta throw then as the saber approaches, pull. i think it does like between 30-50 damage no armor. So in essense it'll take your whole team to kill the fc.

Maybe convincing home to type 'kill' in the console might be the only way. i returned my copy couple days ago so i actually don't care anymore, this "series" lost it's fun factor in 1.03.

btw, you div3rse guys, you remember some guys named REN and Stimpy from JO? I think i've played with you guys, don't remember if it was that clan or not.

Comm539
09-22-2003, 06:55 PM
The s/o ctf community was the biggest community in JK2. It was also the only remaining community to still be active when JA was released. On that alone, I believe raven should at least listen to why s/o ctf has become a stalemate.
We're just fed up of people saying 'learn the game.' Fact is, most things are from jk2 whether you want to admit it or not. There are some new things, but none can in anyway stop someone who wants to be stopped. Its not a question of mastering new things, because no matter how skillfull at a kata you are, theres no way its gonna chase down and stop an fc for ya.
This is why we need to old ways.
I realise you have tried to help[, but i believe i gave valid reasons why the suggestions wouldn't work. Just ask again and we'll try to explain more clearly why they wouldn't work.

No one has actually said: How to stop an fc in JA.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 07:09 PM
Waits...

lol

Pull throws do 30 damage guys, and remember any decent clan is going to have a team healing escort with the capper and in some cases an energizer as well, so 30 hp of damage is not going to cut it when he can be healed to 100 hp in a single second.

not to mention *if you use your whole team to kill a capper with pull throws...

who keeps the base clear of back up cappers?

yeah didn't think about that did you?

most teams will leave a secondary capper at the base for an instant grab on return.

hence a stale mate like we said and have said all along.



Come on guys, you people love to lecture us and tell us how to play, give us the answer...

Waits....



And Cjas, the same can be said about any game type.

You know as well as I do that this game basically is broken into several sub sections of roughly equal proportions.

The no force duel crowd is no larger than the competitive full force saber only community.

And you know as well as I do if they would have given you guys 2 new stances with a few limited swings but taken away 40% of the swings and combos from the old style, yet left the weakest and most unused (due to ineffectiveness) elements in, you no force duel people would be doing the same thing we are right now.


And your comparison between anything that went on in 1.02/03 with spinning dfa's and back stabs and what is going on now is totally absurd.

-they (back stab whiners) were noobs. Pure and simple. They were getting killed and were too stupid to figure out how to stop it.


-we are not noobs. If anything we are the ones who did all of the killing and made these people get pissed off and come here complaining.

-we are not having any trouble killing people on public servers.
As I have stated before, this community is about 75% noob, 25% decent player.

The problem we are having is when that 25% part of the community plays each other games become a total stalemate due to the fact we play much more defensively and smarter than the rest of the 75% of players.

C'jais
09-22-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
The s/o ctf community was the biggest community in JK2.

I won't try backing that up with actual numbers, but I'll remain skeptic on this point - My guess is that there are far, far more "Joe Average" people who only play online once in a while, and if they do, it's not going to be a specialized gametype like s/o CTF, most likely FFA, duel or Siege instead.

It was also the only remaining community to still be active when JA was released.

Hmmm.... Along with the FFA and duel ones, I might add.

We're just fed up of people saying 'learn the game.' Fact is, most things are from jk2 whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm well aware of that. No point in denying it.

I realise you have tried to help[, but i believe i gave valid reasons why the suggestions wouldn't work. Just ask again and we'll try to explain more clearly why they wouldn't work.

No one has actually said: How to stop an fc in JA.

Now, I understand what you mean, but the problem is that you're going about it the wrong way - you are grapping people by their throats and demanding that they provide a way to solve your problem, otherwise you're allowed to gloat and already have a patch in the works - or, you're going to quit and be none too happy about it. I realize this isn't what you intend to do, but that's how it looks like from the sideline.

And what are we going to do? Most people might see your points but can't care to voice their agreeance, and the rest might be scared to even come with constructive criticism.

C'jais
09-22-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Come on guys, you people love to lecture us and tell us how to play, give us the answer...

Waits....

This is what I'm talking about. Don't give me 'tude, bro. I don't care about your problems - don't delude yourself into thinking that I do.

You know as well as I do that this game basically is broken into several sub sections of roughly equal proportions.

"Roughly equal proportions"?

The no force duel crowd is no larger than the competitive full force saber only community.

If that's so, how come there are far more servers for the first one? Makes no sense to say that when the servercount speaks for itself.

And you know as well as I do if they would have given you guys 2 new stances with a few limited swings but taken away 40% of the swings and combos from the old style, yet left the weakest and most unused (due to ineffectiveness) elements in, you no force duel people would be doing the same thing we are right now.

No - everyone would be whining and grabbing Raven's balls. There's a clear difference in that most people here simply don't care for your solutions to the problem.

-they (back stab whiners) were noobs. Pure and simple. They were getting killed and were too stupid to figure out how to stop it.

Noobs? Don't give me that elitist trite again - I reckon you're talking about players of inferior skill to you, but that'd rule out most everyone. Problem was that if they were to do anything about the backstab, the solution would turn the game into jousting matches, cutting out the fun that most people had using all the other techniques, and that's why so many players left in disgust. Sure, they couldn't win, but the terms on winning were ruining the game for them as it were. Can't blame them.

-we are not having any trouble killing people on public servers.
As I have stated before, this community is about 75% noob, 25% decent player.

Is that so? How happy I am that you invent such arbitrary numbers - since I'm clearly not a skilled player, I must be a "noob" by simple deduction. Have you ever thought that there were many people that simply played for the heck of it, but weren't necessarily bad at the game? Or is everyone not taking the game as seriously as you a noob? I don't get these labels at all, I'm sorry.

the weiner dog!
09-22-2003, 07:38 PM
Again as I told Al, why are you even commenting on this then?

This is not your field of expertise, you do not play this game type, you are not involved in this aspect/sub section of the community, you have no idea how large this community is, so why even comment on it?

Will our changes affect the no force duel crowd?

Nope.

Why get all up in arms then?

Comm539
09-22-2003, 07:39 PM
Everyone who isn't competetive = nub :P j/k

We demand alternate ways in response to comments like:

'kicking is lame'
'learn something new'
'kciking is for noobs'
'I don't want kicking in JA because...'

Yeh w/e. Say that, but provide us with alternate ways of stopping an fc.

Th4tguy
09-22-2003, 07:52 PM
Hey weiner dog i hope u know i was just kiddin with what i said about the 5 ppl pt'ing. I know its not possible. i have played long enough to know that i was tryin to make a joke out of what megafu said but oh well...

traj
09-22-2003, 08:35 PM
It's getting tough to tell which are jokes and which aren't with some of the replies we've recieved on the subject. To be honest, your response wasn't the worst one I've read, and you were joking.

dyehead
09-23-2003, 04:16 AM
Comm,

I think the answer to your question can only be supplied in the patch that I'm sure will eventually be released. Who knows when that will be.

It's pretty much a fact that you can't stop a fc who knows what he's doing without the old elements.

I haven't seen anyone with a soltion yet, but then again, it's only been a few days.

My suggestion is to practice the lame new saber styles, hope that they buff up single saber a bit (underpowered imo) and wait for them to fix some stuff.

I'm sure it will all end on a better note.

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by megafu
btw, you div3rse guys, you remember some guys named REN and Stimpy from JO? I think i've played with you guys, don't remember if it was that clan or not.

yeah..they're old skool divs..haha

Side
09-23-2003, 04:40 AM
(sorry if i repeat myself)
The question...once again still got 0 answer

How do you kill a FC

So beside flaming s/o ctf community
answer this question first

dFiend
09-23-2003, 05:17 AM
What is fc?... I am newb.

fk | screed
09-23-2003, 05:25 AM
U stand on top of where their flag is located and spam Kata over and over while you have an energizer give you force :D

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 05:57 AM
Has anyone thought of the fact that perhaps Raven tweaked things so that players now have to use all the tools which Raven put in, in order to get anywhere? Perhaps playing, with half of these taken out, doesn't work because...half of it's left out? :rolleyes:

Raven directed their attention on balancing everything out, and that included taking out kick, obviously since they took out kick. They designed JA CTF with everything in mind...that includes the force powers, the saber styles and their new moves and it includes the guns...all nine of them and three explosive devises. Now, if you want to take away some of your most valuable tools, fine...but remember that it's going to cause problems.

Now, if a kick option were put in, then you're saying that it wouldn't cause problems because only people who want to use will use it. Well, if Raven made it so that you could kill people by jumping on their heads, then people would use that option because of how easy it makes killing people. You just have to manage jumping on their head, right? So what you'd end up with is a bunch of idiots jumping around trying to jump on each others heads. Nice, eh? There goes all of Raven's careful balancing.

Now, Kicking is as bad as jumping on someone’s head to kill them. Why? Because its easy...everyone would go around trying to kick each other, just like in JKII...I don't know just how much of that went on in CTF or FFA games, but Duels were complete ****...everyone doing those stupid bows and "honor" and killing each other by being the fastest kicker rather then a skilled saberist...it completely ruined Duel mode. (The "honor" **** was bad enough without the battles being completely devoid of skill.)

Now, if you're half way intelligent, you'll have figured out what my reply, to your original question, was...

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Th4tguy
Hey weiner dog i hope u know i was just kiddin with what i said about the 5 ppl pt'ing. I know its not possible. i have played long enough to know that i was tryin to make a joke out of what megafu said but oh well...

Actually I thought you were serious because it's one of the things we thought about doing ourselves.

:D

Hey at least you tried to come up with a tactic, that's how all good strats & combos get developed.

;)



Originally posted by dFiend
What is fc?... I am newb.



And an fc would be a Flag Carrier.

Now if that fc were a dancingFool he would be a...

Raggh he would be a pirate!

dyehead
09-23-2003, 06:15 AM
I think you're missing the point, which is that guns suck, and that's not an option to solve the problem of what our question was, your reply was, 'lamers, shut up and use guns because s/o ctf is dumb'

We would prefer if you're not going to stick to our subject, or give an answer which you know we're not going to ignore, that you politely mind yer own business, thanks.

megafu
09-23-2003, 06:58 AM
hey d.jello,

REN = megafu

those days were so fun. We stopped playing after the 1.04 patch. I see diverse is still going strong. i never really played much with you guys, think STIMPY actually got in and told me to join too. Those were the days...

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
I think you're missing the point, which is that guns suck, and that's not an option to solve the problem of what our question was, your reply was, 'lamers, shut up and use guns because s/o ctf is dumb'

Okay, so you're saying that your opinion is that guns suck and that my opinion is that saber only CTF sucks...thanks for not only stating your opinion in a manner which seems to imply that you're right and that it's a fact, but also giving me an opinion which I don't have. If I used the same tactics, then I could say something about your opinion being that everyone who doesn't play saber only CTF should jump in front of a train, and we would get exactly nowhere. Please, enough of the childish nonsense of warping my opinion and then forcing it on me...it just shows why you shouldn't be the ones to be deciding if something needs to be changed in the gameplay...you have no respect for others and their opinions.


Now, the reason you think guns suck may be that you can't, and refuse to, learn how to use them and how to defend yourself against them. I was playing a JA FFA game just yesterday, where I was one of the top scorers...the reason was because I was using everything I had to kill people. I used force powers, my lightstaff and guns. Then this guy (who had all of 2 points by the time the match ended) started calling me "lame" and that I "don't know how to play jk"...now, guess what type of player he was? He was one of those "honor" people who feel that their way of playing is right, and since that doesn't include using guns, he's going complain about it when he's always killed by guns.
Now, I don't know if that's why you think guns suck, but that's what I suspect. If I am wrong in my suspicion, then correct my error and please state a logical reason why you think they suck.

I don't know if saber only CTF sucks, as I haven't tried playing that way...why have I not played that way? Because, to me, it doesn't sound like a fun way to play. That's just my opinion, and there are obviously some people who find it fun...that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. I prefer to play CTF with everything it was intended to be played with. Some people may not want to play with everything...that's fine, they can play it however they want. If something doesn't work when you play that way, however, don't blame Raven and demand that they make a patch to "fix" this "bug"...that is not fine. Raven made the game the way it is for a reason...kicks were popular...Raven would not have taken them out if there wasn't a problem with them being in. That problem is that they're easy to pull off, and completely screw up all the other elements of the gameplay.

I have stated my reasons for why I think kick would be used, and why it would ruin JA just like it did in JKII...if you ignore my logical arguments, then that's your own fault, not mine.

And my last message is: Don't ruin everyone else's fun. It is tragic that the way you played CTF in JO is no longer fun in JA, but that's just because Raven made people depend on everything, rather than a few moves repeated in robotic button presses. That is JA, and if you don't like the way JA is played, then that is your problem...JA is JA...and if you bring up that idiotic "JA is a JO mod" argument, then be warned that I have a logical reply for that, as well.

I'm also so glad I'm talking with people who value other peoples opinions so highly, that they openly say, in a most rude way, that you're going to ignore my reply's if you don't like them. Very open minded of you, I must say. :D

Catalyst
09-23-2003, 01:45 PM
If Raven wanted those features in JA they would have put them there...and I believe I remember reading somewhere they some of those they specifically did NOT want in JA.

There is no need to make a new thread with the same retarded points about JA needing to become JO. You say s/o is impossible to cap, I say you suck as I always get a cap or two when I play. Then again CTF is for newbs anyway, which is why I dont play it much in the first place.

DarkangelFOG
09-23-2003, 02:04 PM
How to kill a FC.

With no Pull.
With no Push.
With no Throw.
With no Grip.

It's pretty simple.

Hit them with your -saber-. That's what it's there for. I've killed countless people in CTF games, using a saber. No guns, no force. Just my trusty saber.

That's the answer. Try it. It works. =P

Reapy
09-23-2003, 02:21 PM
Hi. I'm a newb. I have made the mistake of lurking and reading all of your "how do i kill an fc you bunch of #$%$@@$ newbs?!?!" posts.

From what I read of those threads (and I did read all the posts), the only people saying the excuses you've made up, are yourselves. When people do offer an idea, you basically tell them to stfu, and that they have no clue what they are talking about, and have no right to post in your thread.

I agree that not everyone knows what they are talking about, but at liest they took the time to offer an idea. If you don't want to hear people's opinions who aren't in the community, go back to posting on the twl forums, and leave these ones alone.

I was lurking here looking for people to talk about the multiplayer game. All I see are people crying because kick isn't back in the game.

From all I have read that you posted, it sure does sound like s/o ctf is in trouble without kick. I think everyone here agrees with you that it is a problem, and stopping a fc is next to impossible. But the vast majority of people do not want the flip kick back in the game, you have to see that. You have your one solution, we have heard it, numerous times, in numerous duplicate posts.

I would actually like to hear the things you have tried that havent worked to stop the fc. I find it interesting. I relise that you guys played the game a lot, and are probably quite good at it. I do agree with you that ja is basically an expansion pack for jo, so the "learn the game" fud is bs.

What have you guys tried? I think when people say, learn the game, they mean, try new tactics. It is quite obviouse that the balance is off in that one game mode, but for now, you are going to have to adapt your tactics.

Instead of sitting there, spamming the same messge over and over like a viagra advertisment, how about you add something constructive to your own posts, which you care so much about.

I know you guys have tried stuff, but please, share it with us, so when we wade through all the reptative posts, we at liest come out knowing something more.

So anyway, here are my ideas. I'm a newb, I'm sure you tried them, but I might as well throw something on the table. Again, from what I've read, I agree that you probably need something more, or new tactics, for s/o ctf.

Quick backstory of newbishness. Got JO, played 1.2 a lot on pub servers all the time, all they needed to do was make it so dfa didn't spin. Hated 1.3 butt fighting, but played a little. Quit playing by 1.4. I was ok, never great. Enjoyed weapons ffa's the most. Played a bunch of weapon ctf and ff duels.

Ok, ideas.

I've noticed from my two nights playing JA that the staff butterfly move is pretty overpowered. It is balanced somewhat by the fact it uses force, but on a super fast regen server, its easily exploitable (I'll get into that in a sec, a much more serious issue then kick imho). Anyway, hitting someone with the butterfly takes off like 60+ health, even for a glancing blow. It also moves fast, and is easy to control.

Have you guys drained the dedicated energizers? As soon as they get in the flag room can you drain them? I don't know how effective energize is, but if two guys can energize each other through a drain, then it should be toned down.

I didn't once see any of you mention team heal or team energize as being over powered, even though you have clearly stated that they are so effective that the a team can keep a flag runner fully healed and energized while he is being chased by several people at once. Hopefully these people are draining the flag runner and people around him?

From what you all have described, the problem seems to be team heal an energize. Try to set up a server by disableing these powers. Is the flag killer so difficult to kill now? If you don't feel that you should turn these powers off and want them in, why are you petitioning for kick (which appears to be annoying to every othe person in other game types) back in the game. From what it sounds like kick is a jerry rigged tactic to fix a broken power.

Seriously though, if all of you guys are so good, I don't understand how you can't get over to the guys base, drain him, drain his buddies, team energize each other, butterfly into the guy, drain push him into a kata, or whatever. I don't buy this ulimited health + force bs. I don't. Why is he allowed to get ulimited force + health? What are you doing to stop it?

I know you have all tried this stuff, but please, how about telling us before hand, instead of waiting for someone to put forth an idea and then swoop in decaring your omniptotence to us n00bs.

Throwing. Why have you not mentioned throwing? Why cant 1 guy drain everything in sight with a 2th guy energizing him and 2 throwing sabers at the fc?

Anyway, running out of time to type and I have to get back to work. To sum it up, sounds to me like the problem is team heal and team energize, and not the absence of kick. Also, do us a favor and post something constructive instead of the same thing over and over again. What have you tried to do to deal with the poor situation you are in besides spam some forums?

Comm539
09-23-2003, 02:42 PM
Darkangel: The problem is actually stopping the fc, in order to kill him. I'm sure you can kill an fc on a pubic server (so can everyone)...but thats not the problem. The problem occurs in competetive matches (ie.clan matches) when two fc's who have even the slightest of a clue what to do (ie. run away) that the fc cannot be caught to do whatever moves you want to kill him. Kicking would stop the fc. We do not want kicking as a way to kill, merely as a way to stop an running fc

The comparason with kicking and a 'one hit jump on your head move' is ridiculous. Kicking isn't a one hit killer, although the roll stab is (which is why people whore it).
Kicking isn't a very powerful move either...just 20hp. When theres saber damages that does more, its unlikely people would just 'whore kicking' becuase its easy. Personally I find a kata, rollstab and butterfly all far easier and all do more damage.
Kicking is however, a way to stop a 'runner'.
Despite this, we realise that others may still not want kicking and is why we have asked for a toggleable kick patch, so only the people who need it have to have it.


Reapy:
No force creates a ridiculously slow game...so its not an option.

Draining the enrgizers won't work. They will start (if they're not already) energy chaining to give both themselves and the fc infinite force.

Again butterfly and w/e isn't any good unless you can stop the fc from running away in the firstplace.


The post is a request, highlighting the problems in s/o ctf. It asks for kicks to be reintroduced as a toggleable patch for s/o ctf. We're sick of people saying 'your meant to be good, kill him anyway." But if both fc's know what to do and run away, there isn't a way to stop him. There are no new tactics to learn, since raven didn't add any new ways to stop people. This is why the old way of stopping someone (kicking) is needed in s/o ctf.

We've told you how to do it (readd kicking) but some people disagree. To these people, give us an alternate way. I'm afraid noone has of yet managed to answer:
How to stop an fc in s/o cft

Reapy
09-23-2003, 03:27 PM
Ok, but what I am trying to say is, you are coming to the forums and saying, kicking was the only way we knew how to stop it, its not there, we cant stop it. That's a defeatist attitude. Instead, you need to be saying, we did x and y and it doesnt work. At liest let people know you have tried out all the old tactics used before kicking was discovered (I'm sure in JO people had the same issues until someone figured out kicking someone to death kicked ass).

I also didn't say don't use force. I said dont use team heal and team energize. Those are your problems, not a lack of kick. Instead of introducing a feature that will split an already tiny community (that was my other issue, got busy so I had to post before I got to it), why not tweak team heal and team energize. Changing those powers will only affect team games, and most of the game types by people who are bothered by kick, wont be effected.

It doesnt sound right that you can get an energize chain over draining, or someone energizing two drainers.

I'd say for now, if you have given up on there being a way to rebalance the game mode, you are going to have to disable team energize or team heal, or both. Maybe you can just limit the power to level 1. If you are willing to toggle kick on/off and customize the server that way, then why not use the toggle you already have?

Some people are really against kick, becuase it will split the community. The community is tiny as hell too. To me, a casual gamer (I used to play as hard as you guys did at other games, but growing up doesnt leave the time or desire to do it anymore), the community is the server list i pull up in the game. Right now the server list has something like 30 servers on it, 10 of which are warez I cant join. The others are empty, or have a bad ping. If they are good, chances are that they have force regen jacked up, and my ffa game is going to have 10 people walking around with their sabers down yelling at you for playing an ffa. I don't have a problem with this style of gameplay on a server that has rules outlined to play as such. I'll just find another thats set up to play like a real ffa.

Unfortunatly, I don't have that option. I have only played ja a few nights, but I have yet to find a server (duel, power duel, ffa) that has a good ping (<110 ), full force, and default settings. All of the ones I have are no force (dont mind this setting), no guns, with super force regen on. It's rediculous.

The other night I got on a good ffa server. After the game I had 76 or so kills, the guy closest to me had around 45. All i did was butterfly everyone, occasionally doing a kata or regular hit, maybe a few roll stabs into duel saber katas. I couldn't do this with out super force regen. I want server options, where I can play any game mode I want. JA doesnt have that. Thats the more immediate threat then having a kick toggle.

Imagine if I don't like kick. Now the chances of me finding a server with "factory" settings are even slimmer to none, as now have of the servers are going to have kick and the other half arent going to have it.

Anyway, you guys are just being too close minded, asking a rhetorical question (translation: question that has no answer) over and over adn over and over again? What do you want to hear?

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!

There, yes, we all agree with you, s/o ctf if hurting without kick. But when you want a patch, you are effecting the whole community, so you have to listen to the whole community. The whole community says kick is the suxs. That isn't what you want to hear, so like a spoiled child, you are repeating the same arguments over and over again, hoping to hear one person say, yeah, throw kick back in.

Well, there is no kick right now. So work around it, nurf energize and heal on your servers. You are in a league, and the only time this matters are when you play your league matches (by your own words), so instead of fractioning an already small community with a patch, so your even smaller twl community can play better games by adding kick, mod your league rules instead, and nerf and/or remove team heal and energize.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 04:43 PM
i will state it again:

WE DO NOT WANT MORE NERFS. that just drives more players away.

heal/energize are HUGE parts of strategy in matches.

Comm539
09-23-2003, 04:49 PM
Nurfin forces etc will only lead to balance issues. Kicks were in JK2 and since this is 80% the same code it won't affect balance (even if it does, we just turn kicking off).

We have tried everything, meaning literally everything in JO to stop an fc. These were pre-stated but again:
Gripkick
kick
pull kick
dfa
rage dfa
ptk

These were ways to kill the fc with 1 hit or to stop the fc to finish him.

You admitted yourself

The other night I got on a good ffa server. After the game I had 76 or so kills, the guy closest to me had around 45. All i did was butterfly everyone, occasionally doing a kata or regular hit, maybe a few roll stabs into duel saber katas.

Your spamming moves (not just you, i mean most people). These moves do 4x as much damage as a kick! Why would kicks be an 'easy kill' when you already spam these moves? I suppose these are much more skillful and harder to implement than kicking? I would say its vice versa. Kicks are no longer 'overpowerful' when the best way to win is spamming duel sabers.


BTW, s/o ctf community was the largest competetive and longest active community in JK2, not a minority. And remember, you think you'll have trouble finding a server with factory settings. Saber collision, combo limits, timing, swings etc are all redefined as irrelevant. The best way to win has become spamming duel saber swings and the odd kata. This threatens all of the competetive community.
So although we may be a minority (a large minority at that :P), I would imagine it would be 10x harder to find a server if the competetive community dies: Who do you think runs all those servers?

Kurgan
09-23-2003, 04:55 PM
My solution is simply to use all the weapons in the game, rather than just sabers.

But that's just me...

Comm539
09-23-2003, 04:57 PM
Please don't suggest to change gametypes. If duellers had everything but bluestance removed would you tell them to grab a stun baton and call you Charlie? We want to solve our gametype that has and can still worked, not play another one.

Reapy
09-23-2003, 05:12 PM
I must be communicating poorly, because I agree with you on all of these things. I am well aware that a thriving competative community is needed for a game to last. I am also aware that if a game's mechanics are so off that you can't compete, casual gamers suffer just as much, because in the end, the game isnt as fun.

I liked kick, and wouldn't care if it was in the game at all. I got bored spamming one move. The move should work in concert with a few others to effectivly kill someone. I didnt like 1.4 ffa's because it took too long for you to kill someone, ruining the fun somewhat, when you would batter someone down only to have someone come running around the corner flailing and getting the last hit in.

I am not saying I think kick is over powered, and it doesnt belong. I agree with your plight 100% and believe it is a problem. And perhaps you are right, nurfing isnt going to be a solution.

JA in general just seems to keep you on your feet. Jedi moves really fast with speed and rage (one reason i wasnt as big a fan of ctf actually), and the only way I could bring people down without weapons was to bring them down to the ground. It's a lot harder for me to kill people, and I relise how difficult it is to stop some guy with jewed out weak sabers with a team of competent people.

So I don't mean to come at you like you are all idiots and dont know what you are talking about, nor come at you like I don't think theres a problem with that game type. I was just observing how split the community is over kick, and pointing out that adding kick is going to split it further.

There are a million ways to implemnt the kick with out it sucking, and I never did see the problem with it before, and especially not now since you can roll all over the ground after you get knocked down. In fact, comeing down to it and left to my own devices, I would say put kick back in.

But I'm not left to my own devices, and neither are you. There needs to be something changed in your game type, but you also have to listen to the other people, and there needs to be a compramise. You arent going to change anyone's mind about it no matter how much sense you make. A scrub is a scrub.

Raven SHOULD have thought up some new force powers and added them to the game. What they basically did was nutralize the amount of fun I had with my favorate force powers (push and pull) and screw you all over with team energize and heal. I would think they could have come up with at liest one more, like force break or something like that that drops peoples absorb, protect or speed they have going in the area. Anything.

I agree with you, your solution has to come in a patch of some sort, it is a major imbalance. Kick might or might not be the answer, you have to wait for raven from that. Until then, you have to deal with it, or go back to JO until it's been dealt with in a patch. I think everyone would prefer that you stay in JA and work on new skills (disrupting the force healing /energize chain, predicting and steering the fc into waiting attacks, isolating the fc from his healers, and whatever difficult tactics it takes to bring down a competent fc on a competent team)

Again, I don't mean to disagree with you, and i'm no saying you guys are stupid and that the kick thing isnt an issue. Hope I've explained myself better this time.

Kurgan
09-23-2003, 05:51 PM
See, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to suggest to use other weapons in this case.

Bear with me here...

I think of "Sabers Only" as a mutator (remember UT?) just like JediVsMerc or Disable Force.

These mutators (if you will) work great in some game types, but poorly in others.

For example, I tried JediVsMerc on CTF, thinking it would be great (classes in CTF right?) but it was buggy. My skin was default and I couldn't change it to a team skin. Though I would be counted as being on a team, my teammates could hurt me (even though team damage was off). Bots on my team would attack me sometimes, etc.

Obviously Raven just didn't intend for this to be used, so they didn't bother to iron out the bugs in it.

Likewise certain maps are optimized for the use of Force. Big maps with lots of places to jump to are examples of this. Without force they are tedius to navigate, its easy to get lost, and most areas are unaccessable, etc.

Raven favors sabers only in Duel mode, obviously, but CTF seems to be a mode that is intended for all weapons (force or no force) primarily.

That is the feeling I've gotten from playing it. Now don't get me wrong, JK2 was different, as the maps tended to be smaller and flatter. You had kicks and that sort of thing to help you out.

Kicks could be modded in sure, and I think it would be a little boring (I didn't enjoy sabers only ctf in JK2, why would I enjoy it in JA?) but it would make some people happy.

The point is, I don't think the game should be bashed or it should be treated like this is the only way to play (I think some folks are taking it too seriously).

Saying sabers take skill to use obviously has merit, but then so does pointing out that with sabers only you have to master 3 weapons, whereas with everything you have to master 12 more.

Sabers only in Duel = great
Sabers only in FFA = fine
Sabers only CTF = no thanks

Comm539
09-23-2003, 06:11 PM
I understand, but we have to keep explaining our point of view to make it clear to LA and Raven that there is a major imbalance. As I see it, having no kick has divided the community to its extremes.
With kicks in, people were disgruntled but played on. Now we could give the choice to have kicks or not, but your still not happy. This appears selfish and inconsiderate.
You say 'people will turn on kicks becuase its easy' obviously the saber moves are now far easier to implement and do much more damage.

FurionStormrage
09-23-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
I understand, but we have to keep explaining our point of view to make it clear to LA and Raven that there is a major imbalance. As I see it, having no kick has divided the community to its extremes.
With kicks in, people were disgruntled but played on. Now we could give the choice to have kicks or not, but your still not happy. This appears selfish and inconsiderate.
You say 'people will turn on kicks becuase its easy' obviously the saber moves are now far easier to implement and do much more damage.

Actually, you guys keep claiming that the loss of kick unbalances the game. The fact that no one can win PROVES FOR A FACT that the new gameplay is VERY BALANCED.

Simple logic, really...

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 07:21 PM
g_enableKick 1/0

g_forceSpecialRestriction 1/0

g_gripLineOfSightRestriction 1/0

g_oldStyleRoll 1/0 (a lot of quake 3 engine based games have various "old effect cvars", actually I think even JA has a few)


that is all it would take.

it could even be toggle options.

:)

Comm539
09-23-2003, 07:28 PM
Its that easy. Call 0800 792 792 now and we'll even throw in a strafe jump cvar absoloutely free.



I haven't seen any complaints that dfa could be changed to not need force.

los grip...whats the difference between 1 and 2 points in grip? What wrong with the old grip?

Rolling is very infuriating now. Its pointless. You can't roll to go faster and the roll doesn't move you enough for it to be useful to avoid an attack.

And finally kicking. It won't be whored because of easier, more powerful saber attacks, yet it will allow ctf to be playable.

dFiend
09-23-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Its that easy. Call 0800 792 792 now and we'll even throw in a strafe jump cvar absoloutely free.



I haven't seen any complaints that dfa could be changed to not need force.

los grip...whats the difference between 1 and 2 points in grip? What wrong with the old grip?

Rolling is very infuriating now. Its pointless. You can't roll to go faster and the roll doesn't move you enough for it to be useful to avoid an attack.

And finally kicking. It won't be whored because of easier, more powerful saber attacks, yet it will allow ctf to be playable.

Ban this gringo for posting phone sex numbers. And thank you sir whinner dog for answering my newb question. :mad:

Comm539
09-23-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by dFiend
Ban this gringo for posting phone sex numbers. And thank you sir whinner dog for answering my newb question. :mad:

I at least got a few kicks from that number though (poor joke i know) ;)

Rumor
09-23-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Actually, you guys keep claiming that the loss of kick unbalances the game. The fact that no one can win PROVES FOR A FACT that the new gameplay is VERY BALANCED.

Simple logic, really...

actually, your "simple logic" is flawed.

a balanced game favors both the offense and defense, not just one or the other. this game favors the offense (cappers) by a huge margin.

FurionStormrage
09-23-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
actually, your "simple logic" is flawed.

a balanced game favors both the offense and defense, not just one or the other. this game favors the offense (cappers) by a huge margin.

To prevent someone from grabbing your flag you need defense, right? To grab someone else's flag, you need offense, right? So, if you can't defend your own flag from getting stolen and you manage to steal their flag, then what's imbalanced?

The Undisputed
09-24-2003, 09:00 PM
lol lol lol

Comm

Replace kicks with lightning, it does an awefully lo of (and i stress on awefully lot of) Damage lol lol

if not that, then bring kicks back in the game.

The Undisputed
09-24-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
To prevent someone from grabbing your flag you need defense, right? To grab someone else's flag, you need offense, right? So, if you can't defend your own flag from getting stolen and you manage to steal their flag, then what's imbalanced?

Dude... If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense.

gf

FurionStormrage
09-24-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by The Undisputed
Dude... If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense.

gf

Well, now you are contradicting your own supporters. Rumor says that offense is overpowered. Now you're telling me that it's not? :rolleyes:

The Undisputed
09-24-2003, 09:04 PM
and then you might say, so both the teams have the same options so offense will be the same with the two teams...


It would be same even with kicks so whats your problem?

gf

peace,
Bryan

the weiner dog!
09-24-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by The Undisputed
Dude... If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense.

gf

He’s right storm, and THAT is the problem.

A grab is easy as hell because a capper can pretty much just swoop in and grab and get out without a scratch.

It is utterly impossible to do "basic" saber swings on a guy flying at 90 mph and who can jump 100 feet in the air and resists force pulls because of absorb.

Think of it like this:

I use force speed at level 3 and absorb at level 3.

My goal is to never be hit by you.

Your only weapon is fists or a stun baton.

Think you will ever touch me?

That's right; you won't even get near me unless I let you.


Now since basic swings are out let's look at the "new moves".

-staff kicks

Useless, totally useless.

Why?

Because you can't push/pull to stun the capper and halt his movement in conjunction with the kick (they must be done at almost the same time to work).

Now when you consider staff kicks restrict your movement and you can't do them with out coming to a complete stop, you are basically not going to hit a moving target with them because they are so restrictive on your own movement.



-Kata


Same as kicks, useless.

Sure the damage is decent but again the movement restrictions prevent them of being effective against an incredibly fast moving target.



So that brings us to:

Each team can grab in the first 30 seconds of the match, neither team can score.

Each team sends a pack of “returners” to get their flag back, but they all lack the same offensive means to kill a capper that the defenders did so it just turns into one long drawn out futile attempt.

Stalemate.

The Undisputed
09-24-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Well, now you are contradicting your own supporters. Rumor says that offense is overpowered. Now you're telling me that it's not? :rolleyes:


Before you even speak, think of what you are saying, if the offense is over poerwered, doesn't it make the game unbalanced?

gf

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by The Undisputed
Before you even speak, think of what you are saying, if the offense is over poerwered, doesn't it make the game unbalanced?

gf

Ha ha ha. That's funny. Before YOU even speak, think about what you're saying. You all are going on and on about how unbalanced the game is. Rumor claims that offense is overpowered. You're claiming they're not. How can two members of the same community disagree over such a fundumental difference in the argument? Tell you what. Why don't you all get together and figure out what the problem is, AGREE ON THE PROBLEM, and present a workable solution to Raven. Right now, all I am seeing is a bunch of speculation as to why the game is unbalanced.

Okay, Rumor is saying that the fact that you can have a capper from each team running around with a flag must mean that offense is too much. If so, why are you unable to kill the capper? Could it somehow mean that maybe DEFENSE is too much? If so, how are both cappers able to get the flags in the first place?

See where this is going? You can't have one overpowering the other because you can't use defense effectively enough to defend your flag. You lack the offensive skills to kill the capper. Don't you even see how your own whining is proving my point every single time?

Th4tguy
09-25-2003, 01:34 AM
Furion...for the game to be balanced both sides of offense and defense have to work. Which means people will be able to take the flag and get away but then returners should be able to return the flag at some point. They wont always be able to but that is because the other team has been able to return their flag before you have. This allows the other team to cap but this is what balance is in a ctf game. The offensive imbalance that is being mentioned is that of which the fc can get the flag and not be killed. The other offensive part of the game is that of the returners. But geuss what...their job cant be done because a skilled fc with an energizer and/or healer can keep him alive due to a lack moves that are powerful enough to kill an fc or moves that enable you to knock him down so your teamates can try to kill him while he is down. What i am trying to get to is that for a game to have perfect balance their has to be a way for both parts of each side to return the flag but there will be some scoring. But as of right now there is just fc's getting the flag and no one scoring/being able to return the flag enabling their side to cap.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 01:38 AM
@Th4tguy: It seems to you all RIGHT NOW that there's no way for you to kill the other person. The gameplay is different. You are all learning it. When you master the intricacies of the game then you'll be in a better position to be SURE that your proposed changes are going to work.

All I am seeing is people complaining that their favorite moves are gone. Well, it's a new game! It's different! If it wasn't going to be different, then WHY DID YOU BUY IT?

Th4tguy
09-25-2003, 02:18 AM
It's different! If it wasn't going to be different, then WHY DID YOU BUY IT?

Because i liked s/o ctf gameplay the way it was in JO and i figured it would still be somewhat like that in JA considering all they really added to s/o ctf was new saber styles. Plus i wanted to try siege but s/o ctf was my real reason for buying it. But they took out everything that made it possible to kill the fc.

The gameplay is different.

Well you are deffinately right on that part in terms of s/o ctf. At least it was possible to kill a good fc but now...

When you master the intricacies of the game then you'll be in a better position to be SURE that your proposed changes are going to work.

K...done...nothing much to learn just run around around swinging ur lightsabers and hope to hit them with it. And plz dont tell me to use the other moves because the odds of hitting an fc with one them are close to none unless i am playing with someone stupid enough to walk into them. Lets look at the general ways the moves were made. They were made for dueling with no force. There is no move that can get and fc on the run. Plus look at the size of the maps. Larger areas for fc to run through and more room to evade. And what about those people still using the single saber. Geuss what...not that much more to learn beside the cartweel and the kata and no fc in his right mind would run into them. Plus the moves to get people that have been knocked down are useless against an fc since you cant knock them down because only push or pull can do that and geuss what. A smart fc uses absorb so there u go. And its been proven by many people that the kick for saber staff wont knock them down because they know how to avoid it. I wont go any farther on that subject of the moves cause it will be long and boring showing u why the moves wont work. Maybe you should try s/o ctf and see for yourself.


It seems to you all RIGHT NOW that there's no way for you to kill the other person.

Maybe because we(being the ppl that play s/o ctf) are right in the sense that you cant kill them. No person in their right mind would want to play a 60 min 0-0 stalemate. Thats what will happen when u get 2 groups of people that understand the basics of s/o ctf together in JA.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 02:25 AM
Thanks for the civil reply. I actually understand what you are saying. Believe me, I do. My duelling is completely off because JA is different than JO.

However, your entire FF S/O CTF community did not figure out the only way to play the game in a week. Why should you expect to know EVERYTHING there is about the gameplay in only one week? Give it time. Asking for something now just because it isn't JO is not going to get you anywhere...

Th4tguy
09-25-2003, 02:35 AM
Lets just say theoretically that maybe some of these ppl have been playing it longer than the week that it has been out so they have more than a months experience with the game...:rolleyes: and they have more experience and know that it wont work.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by Th4tguy
Lets just say theoretically that maybe some of these ppl have been playing it longer than the week that it has been out so they have more than a months experience with the game...:rolleyes: and they have more experience and know that it wont work.

Okay. let's theoretically say you are correct. Your implication means one of two things: 1) they are beta testers and therefore did not buy the game (I manage our beta testing program so I know what beta testers get), or 2) they are playing an illegal warez game in which case I don't give a flying fsck about their opinion.

Clear enough?

Th4tguy
09-25-2003, 03:04 AM
Clear enough?

Not really...because now they have the full game and can still prove it it doesnt work so now their point is proven and no one has been able to come up with a solution. BTW learn the moves, and try to kill a fc in s/o ctf(you will have lots of time since the game wont end. Make sure it is an fc that knows what he/she is doing, you can tell by wether or not they try to take on ppl or run). This is just so that you will be able to experience what some people are experiencing and will understand just where we are coming from.

I actually understand what you are saying.

Just so u know i did read that but i think it works best when u have to experience it.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by Th4tguy
Not really...because now they have the full game and can still prove it it doesnt work so now their point is proven and no one has been able to come up with a solution. BTW learn the moves, and try to kill a fc in s/o ctf(you will have lots of time since the game wont end. Make sure it is an fc that knows what he/she is doing, you can tell by wether or not they try to take on ppl or run). This is just so that you will be able to experience what some people are experiencing and will understand just where we are coming from.


Guess what? This isn't Raven's forum! They're not even posting on Raven's forum! In any case, even IF they experienced this gameplay during a beta test and found out that the final shipping version has the same problem (and beta testers test the final build before it goes out), they're violating the terms of a beta NDA by posting it. NOW IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?!?

Rumor
09-25-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
To prevent someone from grabbing your flag you need defense, right? To grab someone else's flag, you need offense, right? So, if you can't defend your own flag from getting stolen and you manage to steal their flag, then what's imbalanced?

k let me recruit 40 people to stand around the flag (and on top of each other) and proceed to use /amprotect (to keep anything from moving/hurting them) and that should work. right?

Rumor
09-25-2003, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Ha ha ha. That's funny. Before YOU even speak, think about what you're saying. You all are going on and on about how unbalanced the game is. Rumor claims that offense is overpowered. You're claiming they're not. How can two members of the same community disagree over such a fundumental difference in the argument? Tell you what. Why don't you all get together and figure out what the problem is, AGREE ON THE PROBLEM, and present a workable solution to Raven. Right now, all I am seeing is a bunch of speculation as to why the game is unbalanced.

Okay, Rumor is saying that the fact that you can have a capper from each team running around with a flag must mean that offense is too much. If so, why are you unable to kill the capper? Could it somehow mean that maybe DEFENSE is too much? If so, how are both cappers able to get the flags in the first place?

See where this is going? You can't have one overpowering the other because you can't use defense effectively enough to defend your flag. You lack the offensive skills to kill the capper. Don't you even see how your own whining is proving my point every single time?

offense/defense have different meanings.

he is talking about the act of attacking another person. in turn, he means the returners/defense going on the offensive TO THE CAPPER

i am talking about the act of attacking the objective, which is the flag. thus the capper is always on offense to attack and get the flag to his flag. but he is also defending the flag he took, and therefore himself.

lack the offensive skills to kill the capper? more like the offensive TOOLS.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by Rumor


lack the offensive skills to kill the capper? more like the offensive TOOLS.

Skill = using the tools at your disposal

If you're telling me that you have to have one tool AND ONLY ONE tool...

Ardent
09-25-2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Skill = using the tools at your disposal

To some extent. In order to make use of a tool, however, it first has to be created. Once it's created, you gain skill in its use and you can make marvelous things happen. Take that tool away, but keep the same expectations for the results and you don't meet expectations.

The goals of CTF remain the same. But we're suddenly short on tools. Our skills are still intact. But someone's stolen our tools. We want our tools back.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Ardent


The goals of CTF remain the same. But we're suddenly short on tools. Our skills are still intact. But someone's stolen our tools. We want our tools back.

Your tools are still in JO. :rolleyes: If you want JO gameplay...

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 06:53 AM
I hereby ban you from this thread as well noob.

New rule:

Those who know nothing about game play on said topics can not post or lecture people who do play said game type.

If found to be in violation of this rule Rumor will come to your house and kick you in the shins.

:eek:

Luc Solar
09-25-2003, 09:28 AM
Please, FurionStormrage, give it up.

At the moment you're like someone who knows nothing about chess, but still insists on debating a chess related problem with Garri Kasparov.

If Kasparov sais that every match in the new chess version 1.07 ends inevitably in a stalemate if both sides know how to play the game, it's pretty pointless for you to give him a "LOLOLOL you're arguments are weak, why don't you just eat his king with the bishop, lol?".

I don't know **** about CTF. Thus it is better for me to shut up. You should also realize, that you have no idea what you are talking about. There's no point in voicing your opinion.

The "l337" people here do have a point but is bringing back kick the only solution to their problem? I doubt it. It would be a quick fix but not something I'm hoping to see in other gametypes if saber damage is not upped. And no.. I don't have the game yet :p

Personally I hate regenerating powers. I hate the 1.04 drain. I thought the 1.02 heal was a bit too much. I don't like drawn out fights. I don't like the fact that you can let someone hit you 7 times and then get back to 100hp simply by pressing a button (drain). I'd like to see people pay for their mistakes and die a lot.

Now.. "How to kill a FC?"

There could be other ways. How about letting the double edged saber kicks be performed in mid air? How about making sabers hurt a lot? How about nerfing (yes: NERFING) regenerating powers like team heal/energize and heal/drain making the capper's life not-so-easy?

The line of sight restriction shouldn't really be a biggie in CTF, right? An absorber is not affected and a darkie can be killed in other ways.

The Undisputed
09-25-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Ha ha ha. That's funny. Before YOU even speak, think about what you're saying. You all are going on and on about how unbalanced the game is. Rumor claims that offense is overpowered. You're claiming they're not.

lol
you know your stupidity amazes me...

If I say the offense is over-powered, what does it mean?It means I am agreeing with rumour when he says "offense is over-powered and I'm claiming that "Offense is over-powered"

lol...let me explain in to you in the simplest terms possible...

Originally posted by The Undisputed
If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense.

And that, my friend implies to the unbalanced nature of the game, indicating to the "over-poweredness" of the Offense, you know what that means?

It means I'm agreeing with Rumour when he says offense is over-powered and that I'm "claiming" that offense is over-powered geez...

Once again, think about what your saying and dont just blurt out whatever your mind speaks

The Undisputed
09-25-2003, 11:02 AM
Allright, for all the whining idiots who say that kicks and ptk and pt shouldnt be brought back in the game. When raven rreleases a patch to that, just dont download it, its that simple. geez

play the game without the patch, just don't get yourselves embarraced by trying to convince others to something thats not logical, lets talk sensibly, is there even a possibility to kill an fc if hes running around without 5 guys pull whoring him and two guys killin him with a saber or whatever? you say guve the game some time and you'll come with new ways of strategies to kill the fc. well, why don't you spend your time strategising while raven makes a patch. And if kicks bother you that much, just dont download the patch, its that simple

JUST DON"T DOWNLOAD THE PATCH

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Please, FurionStormrage, give it up.

At the moment you're like someone who knows nothing about chess, but still insists on debating a chess related problem with Garri Kasparov.


Oh, please. :rolleyes: You don't know jack about me. I don't even play the game with this handle.

Originally posted by Luc Solar


If Kasparov sais that every match in the new chess version 1.07 ends inevitably in a stalemate if both sides know how to play the game, it's pretty pointless for you to give him a "LOLOLOL you're arguments are weak, why don't you just eat his king with the bishop, lol?".

I don't know **** about CTF. Thus it is better for me to shut up. You should also realize, that you have no idea what you are talking about. There's no point in voicing your opinion.

The "l337" people here do have a point but is bringing back kick the only solution to their problem? I doubt it. It would be a quick fix but not something I'm hoping to see in other gametypes if saber damage is not upped. And no.. I don't have the game yet :p



If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof with "I'm a 133+ player, leave me alone", well that convinces no one about the merits of his argument. It just happens to be an instance of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority.

Personally I would like to see sabre damage upped. Why am I not moaning and whining over how low it is? Because I have a game that has the balance I want: Jedi Knight II: Outcast 1.02. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Undisputed

Allright, for all the whining idiots who say that kicks and ptk and pt shouldnt be brought back in the game. When raven rreleases a patch to that, just dont download it, its that simple. geez

Ah, yes. I simply have no right to download a patch that fixes BUGS because Raven changed gameplay because of whiners. Tell you what. Use your (and your ilk's) infinite wisdom to make a mod that adds in the gameplay you want. You'll be happy because you'll have the gameplay you want. I'll be happy because I'll have the gameplay I want. I may even download your mod to try it out. (I never did say I didn't know how to kick, BTW. I have won many a duel due to a well-timed kick...)

Originally posted by The Undisputed
And that, my friend implies to the unbalanced nature of the game, indicating to the "over-poweredness" of the Offense, you know what that means?

It means I'm agreeing with Rumour when he says offense is over-powered and that I'm "claiming" that offense is over-powered geez...

Once again, think about what your saying and dont just blurt out whatever your mind speaks

But you can't kill the capper, which is OFFENSE...

Luc Solar
09-25-2003, 03:26 PM
What you don't understand, FurionStormrage, is that the others here are talking about the game. You know nothing about the game but insist however on arguing about totally irrelevant semantics/identical coding/whatever solely for the sake of arguing. That's why I suggested you "let it go".

Comm539
09-25-2003, 03:46 PM
If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof

Very right...except your not giving any prof...or any alternate method to solve the problem. Your just saying "I can't handle kicks. Help meh!!!111" Besides, kicks would be toggleable so you wouldn't have to turn them on.

As an 'anti-kicker' commented in another post:

Many people who won't bother posting want kicks

You don't speak for the whole of the community, maybe people want kicks.



Even if people turn them on,

Go to another server
or
kick them back
or
don't let them kick you
or
Spammed?! Duel sabers are spammed...go moan about them
or
If they're close enough to kick you, you can do a ata or butterfly or any other one kill move you want.
and
Why would they be spammed, when duel sabers do 4x as much damage?





You have no idea about ctf gameplay and why kicks are needed.

And just for your education about a gametype you evidently have a severe lack of knowledge for:

When an fc gets the flag: He's attacking
When an fc gets back to his base: He's defending

Woah, careful I know its a tricky concept for you. Stealing the flag and surviving is now easy. This is where an unbalance lies.
Killing the fc is impossible. This is the other side of the imbalance

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 04:05 PM
What YOU are not getting, and need to, is that this is a NEW GAME. If you want things exactly the way they are in JO, THEN GO PLAY JO! Simple, really. :rolleyes:

More than one person has bothered to post alternate "proofs" to you as to what to do. All I have seen is "Don't force us to use the sabrestaff for kicks". See, Raven DID put kicks in the game, but you guys won't use it! All I hear is PATCH, PATCH, PATCH!

If you are going to reject every single suggestion why should anyone support you when you ask for a patch?

As to the person who said:

Your just saying "I can't handle kicks. Help meh!!!111" Besides, kicks would be toggleable so you wouldn't have to turn them on.

I DO handle kicks. I have even kicked people to death in duels (without activating my sabre) because that person was kick-spamming. I prefer not having to deal with kick-spammers. There's more to this game than kicking.

IMNSHO, the REASON why kicks are spammed in JO is because 1) they are so easy to do, and 2) they are not so easy to block. As I said to Ardent in another post: If I am holding a blade that can cut with every part of its surface and you try to kick me, you should have a consequence if my sabre manages to touch you. BUT IT DOESN'T, and that's the whole problem with kicking.

I don't care if you want kick back in the game. I don't even care if you want it available in every gameplay mode. I DON'T want it implemented exactly the way it is in JO! THAT'S what my argument is. Understand that, then respond.

traj
09-25-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
What YOU are not getting, and need to, is that this is a NEW GAME. If you want things exactly the way they are in JO, THEN GO PLAY JO! Simple, really. :rolleyes:


We don't want things exactly the way they were in JO. We want to be able to finish a game of CTF against other good players. Or finish a FF Duel against another good player.

For as much as you post, you sure don't read too much.

Comm539
09-25-2003, 04:14 PM
Its toggleable... active in s/o ctf...a mode you don't play. If you, then badly, because you can't see why kicks are needed in this type.

Saber Staff kicks have been rejected with a good reason. You need to stop to activate them. You cannot pull at the same time, so you have to be infront of the fc. This is impossible when the fc has speed (you do too) and is moving the same speed as you.
By all means, if you suggest a way to stop an fc that works then the complaining will stop, but you can't...and neither can anyone else. Since raven added NO NEW WAYS TO STOP A MOVING PLAYER, its logical that the old ways are needed.

Ok, kicks were easy in JO. This is a different game as you so kindly, although irrelevently keep pointing out. New moves do far more damage. If they're close enough to kick you, then you can kata them. You can also spam duel sabers, roll stab, butterfly etc. There are far easier ways in JA to kill a player (and therefore a kicker), but you're not moaning about them.

traj
09-25-2003, 04:15 PM
Understand that, then repond.

Ardent
09-25-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Oh, please. :rolleyes: You don't know jack about me. I don't even play the game with this handle.

And you refuse to share your handle. Which is exactly why we're willing to dismiss you ad naseum. Everyone either uses their handle as their handle here, or they've been up front about who they are.

If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof with "I'm a 133+ player, leave me alone", well that convinces no one about the merits of his argument. It just happens to be an instance of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority.

Except that Kasparov is the expert in the field. You're not. His EXPERIENCE with the situation far outweighs your ANALYSIS of it. Plato once commented "What is knowledge without the wisdom to use it?" For someone like Kasparov, the two go hand-in-hand. Not only does he have the knowledge, he has the experience from using it as well.

Personally I would like to see sabre damage upped. Why am I not moaning and whining over how low it is? Because I have a game that has the balance I want: Jedi Knight II: Outcast 1.02. :rolleyes:

There's a cvar to increase (or decrease saber damage). Why can't we get cvars to toggle kick on/off and increase/decrease kick damage? Nothing in the code is preventing this...I can say that for certain because we could change this stuff with xMod.

Ah, yes. I simply have no right to download a patch that fixes BUGS because Raven changed gameplay because of whiners. Tell you what. Use your (and your ilk's) infinite wisdom to make a mod that adds in the gameplay you want. You'll be happy because you'll have the gameplay you want. I'll be happy because I'll have the gameplay I want. I may even download your mod to try it out. (I never did say I didn't know how to kick, BTW. I have won many a duel due to a well-timed kick...)

You hit more or less the same option everyone else does. Why should you be any different from the rest of us?

But you can't kill the capper, which is OFFENSE...

Now you're just playing with situational relevance. Get off it. Capping is referred to as capping because while it's offense, it's not offense in the sense that you're going around killing people (which is what everyone in their right mind refers to offense as in an FPS). If I said capping is overbalanced in favor of the FC right now, I'd be telling you the truth (even, in my limited experiences thus far, with guns -- or maybe I'm just too damn good at it). If I said S/O offense is so badly nerfed it's difficult to kill an FC, it'd still be the truth.

Luc Solar, who had heretofore not been involved in this conversation, offered you a way out, and you're just spitting into his face (and the wind). If nothing else, at least show him some respect. He only has your best interests in mind.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Its toggleable... active in s/o ctf...a mode you don't play. If you, then badly, because you can't see why kicks are needed in this type.

Unfortunately, there are others of you (generic you, not you personally) that have expanded the FF S/O CTF requirement to also include FF S/O Duels and/or any gameplay mode that includes FF S/O combat. While your own request is for ONE particular gameplay, others have requested it for MULTIPLE gameplays. Thus, my problem, if implemented AS IS IN JO.

Originally posted by Comm539

Saber Staff kicks have been rejected with a good reason. You need to stop to activate them. You cannot pull at the same time, so you have to be infront of the fc. This is impossible when the fc has speed (you do too) and is moving the same speed as you.
By all means, if you suggest a way to stop an fc that works then the complaining will stop, but you can't...and neither can anyone else. Since raven added NO NEW WAYS TO STOP A MOVING PLAYER, its logical that the old ways are needed.

IF constraining the change to include FF S/O CTF, and ONLY this type, I suggest that you get an official consensus on a petition and respectfully request that LA/Raven do as you suggest. IF not constraining to ONLY one type of gameplay, we all have the right to express our opinion. Can we agree on that?


Originally posted by Comm539
Ok, kicks were easy in JO. This is a different game as you so kindly, although irrelevently keep pointing out. New moves do far more damage. If they're close enough to kick you, then you can kata them. You can also spam duel sabers, roll stab, butterfly etc. There are far easier ways in JA to kill a player (and therefore a kicker), but you're not moaning about them.

I am not asking for a patch, am I? There are quite a few aspects of this game that I find disconcerting (I am going from JO 1.02 to JA 1.0.x) but none of them are deal breakers for me...

Comm539
09-25-2003, 04:28 PM
Ok, kicks were easy in JO. This is a different game as you so kindly, although irrelevently keep pointing out. New moves do far more damage. If they're close enough to kick you, then you can kata them. You can also spam duel sabers, roll stab, butterfly etc. There are far easier ways in JA to kill a player (and therefore a kicker), but you're not moaning about them.

This is a reason why. if kicks were added, they wouldn't be whored in JA.

And I don't play much ff s/o duel, but some./ Even so, it's clear that theres obvious problems with draining etc. Kicks were part of damage combos to take out a player before he could drain it all back. With kicks gone, its practically impossible (with 2 good players). But it would be toggleable. If so many people disliked it, then it would obviously not be turned on. If it was turned on, then 'non-kickers' would be the minority. This way, Raven can let the community decide for itself...kicks or no kicks.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
And you refuse to share your handle. Which is exactly why we're willing to dismiss you ad naseum. Everyone either uses their handle as their handle here, or they've been up front about who they are.

Sorry, ad naseum is in reference to a logical fallacy. You could try to look fancy by using ad infinitum, but once again you'd just look stupid.

The argument is there in Black and White. If you can't attack the argument, what does it matter that you don't know me? I am not attacking YOU, I am attacking your ARGUMENT. If you want to uselessly flame me then I will respond in kind.


Originally posted by Ardent

Except that Kasparov is the expert in the field. You're not. His EXPERIENCE with the situation far outweighs your ANALYSIS of it. Plato once commented "What is knowledge without the wisdom to use it?" For someone like Kasparov, the two go hand-in-hand. Not only does he have the knowledge, he has the experience from using it as well.

Ah, now we see the true fallacy in your argument! See, Kasparov is in a very rarified field of play. He actually may be one of the only authorities on the subject.

You, however, claim that there is a VERY LARGE MAJORITY of JO/JA players who are "experts" yet only five or ten of you are actually posting on these boards pretending to represent the ENTIRE FF S/O community (of which I am a part) and/or the ENTIRE FF S/O CTF community (of which I am not part). You, or others that share your belief are claiming to represent MY community, and you clearly do not.


Originally posted by Ardent

There's a cvar to increase (or decrease saber damage). Why can't we get cvars to toggle kick on/off and increase/decrease kick damage? Nothing in the code is preventing this...I can say that for certain because we could change this stuff with xMod.


I am not changing cvars at all. I am playing on servers where others may or may not have chosen to change cvars. I tend to want to stick to servers that are as pure as possible.

Originally posted by Ardent

You hit more or less the same option everyone else does. Why should you be any different from the rest of us?


I am not asking for a patch and you are.

Originally posted by Ardent
Luc Solar, who had heretofore not been involved in this conversation, offered you a way out, and you're just spitting into his face (and the wind). If nothing else, at least show him some respect. He only has your best interests in mind.

I don't need a way out, thank you very much. It seems like you are trying to find excuses to not master debate. :D

.:Silver:.
09-25-2003, 04:56 PM
I'm all for bringing kick back, but pull+saber throw is rightfully gone. In JO, no matter what you did (besides run away), there was no block to a pull throw. Even if absorb is on, the pull still forces your character to perform the defensive animation, which opens you up for the saber throw.

Now, I would be for having pull throw back only if absorb allowed you to maintain a defensive stance. This would be a nice compromise for both sides.

Rumor
09-25-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
I hereby ban you from this thread as well noob.

New rule:

Those who know nothing about game play on said topics can not post or lecture people who do play said game type.

If found to be in violation of this rule Rumor will come to your house and kick you in the shins.

:eek:

don't forget having my 3 legged labrodor bring her 16 pups for you to feed by hand, and she will proceed to fart in your bed and living areas. gg.

Rumor
09-25-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Skill = using the tools at your disposal

If you're telling me that you have to have one tool AND ONLY ONE tool...

more like the specific tool that is in question sets us up to use the REST of our tools (minus rage+dfa)

Rumor
09-25-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by .:Silver:.
I'm all for bringing kick back, but pull+saber throw is rightfully gone. In JO, no matter what you did (besides run away), there was no block to a pull throw. Even if absorb is on, the pull still forces your character to perform the defensive animation, which opens you up for the saber throw.

Now, I would be for having pull throw back only if absorb allowed you to maintain a defensive stance. This would be a nice compromise for both sides.

there are many ways to counter/block pt

traj
09-25-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by .:Silver:.
I'm all for bringing kick back, but pull+saber throw is rightfully gone.

Pull throw is still in the game if I'm not mistaken.

Rumor
09-25-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Oh, please. :rolleyes: You don't know jack about me. I don't even play the game with this handle.



If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof with "I'm a 133+ player, leave me alone", well that convinces no one about the merits of his argument. It just happens to be an instance of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority.

Personally I would like to see sabre damage upped. Why am I not moaning and whining over how low it is? Because I have a game that has the balance I want: Jedi Knight II: Outcast 1.02. :rolleyes:



Ah, yes. I simply have no right to download a patch that fixes BUGS because Raven changed gameplay because of whiners. Tell you what. Use your (and your ilk's) infinite wisdom to make a mod that adds in the gameplay you want. You'll be happy because you'll have the gameplay you want. I'll be happy because I'll have the gameplay I want. I may even download your mod to try it out. (I never did say I didn't know how to kick, BTW. I have won many a duel due to a well-timed kick...)



But you can't kill the capper, which is OFFENSE...

going by your attitude and your stance on the issue, you obviously don't play it competitively. nuff said. we don't need to know your gaming handle.

Rumor
09-25-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
What YOU are not getting, and need to, is that this is a NEW GAME. If you want things exactly the way they are in JO, THEN GO PLAY JO! Simple, really. :rolleyes:

More than one person has bothered to post alternate "proofs" to you as to what to do. All I have seen is "Don't force us to use the sabrestaff for kicks". See, Raven DID put kicks in the game, but you guys won't use it! All I hear is PATCH, PATCH, PATCH!

If you are going to reject every single suggestion why should anyone support you when you ask for a patch?

As to the person who said:

Your just saying "I can't handle kicks. Help meh!!!111" Besides, kicks would be toggleable so you wouldn't have to turn them on.

I DO handle kicks. I have even kicked people to death in duels (without activating my sabre) because that person was kick-spamming. I prefer not having to deal with kick-spammers. There's more to this game than kicking.

IMNSHO, the REASON why kicks are spammed in JO is because 1) they are so easy to do, and 2) they are not so easy to block. As I said to Ardent in another post: If I am holding a blade that can cut with every part of its surface and you try to kick me, you should have a consequence if my sabre manages to touch you. BUT IT DOESN'T, and that's the whole problem with kicking.

I don't care if you want kick back in the game. I don't even care if you want it available in every gameplay mode. I DON'T want it implemented exactly the way it is in JO! THAT'S what my argument is. Understand that, then respond.

then what is with the saber passing through your body and it not doing any damage with a high-damage swing? or a dfa going right through you and not doing damage?

i don't see the problem in a saber not doing massive ammounts of damage to you when you are kicking, especially when its not being swung AND THEREFORE ONLY DOING IDLE SABER DAMAGE. i mean HELLO people where are your brains? idle saber does 1 damage. same if you are kicking or you walk up behind them and hold your saber into them.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
then what is with the saber passing through your body and it not doing any damage with a high-damage swing? or a dfa going right through you and not doing damage?

I am not having this problem on LAN play.

Originally posted by Rumor

i don't see the problem in a saber not doing massive ammounts of damage to you when you are kicking, especially when its not being swung AND THEREFORE ONLY DOING IDLE SABER DAMAGE. i mean HELLO people where are your brains? idle saber does 1 damage. same if you are kicking or you walk up behind them and hold your saber into them.

Yes, and idle sabre damage DOES NOT HAPPEN AT ALL during a kick. As far as the kick is concerned, the player does not even hold a weapon. Also, please understand that I am playing JO 1.02 where the idle sabre damage is well above 1 HP/sec.

Comm539
09-25-2003, 06:04 PM
It appears mor and more like your someone who runs around flailing a saber screaming boo hoo when you get kicked.
Try walking and swinging a saber as they kick you. They die before the third knockdown kick.
Honestly, if you took the time to learn how to inflict and counter kick tactics, there wouldn't be a problem.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
It appears mor and more like your someone who runs around flailing a saber screaming boo hoo when you get kicked.

I have already stated that I have kicked people to death in duels with my sabre deactivated; these self-same people were kick-spamming. If I don't know how to get away from a kick, exactly how am I able to kill them when my sabre is deactivated and they are just trying to kick me with their sabres on? It seems to me like you have a comprehension problem...

Originally posted by Comm539
Honestly, if you took the time to learn how to inflict and counter kick tactics, there wouldn't be a problem.

Honestly, if you took the time to realize that what you wanted was JO, why'd you buy this one? :confused:

Comm539
09-25-2003, 06:18 PM
I never said I wanted jo...take the time to comprehend that I want JA with kicks added to s/o ctf only.

oh btw, I kill kick spammers with a stun baton and harsh language. Oh hell, gtg, my pig flew off again. We can all claim things in a forum.

traj
09-25-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Honestly, if you took the time to realize that what you wanted was JO, why'd you buy this one? :confused: [/B]

I'll say it one last time for the cheap seats.

WE JUST DON'T WANT FF DUELS AND FF/SO CTF GAMES TO END IN STALEMATES. THERE IS NO WAY TO KILL SOMEONE GOOD WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE KILLED IN FF/SO CTF OR FF DUELS.

Please read that 50 times Furion so I don't have to type it again.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
I never said I wanted jo...take the time to comprehend that I want JA with kicks added to s/o ctf only.

oh btw, I kill kick spammers with a stun baton and harsh language. Oh hell, gtg, my pig flew off again. We can all claim things in a forum.

Ah, yes. ANYONE can claim ANYTHING in a forum, but the moment you start claiming that SOMEONE ELSE did or is doing something without proof is libel.

Comm539
09-25-2003, 06:23 PM
generic 'your'

HFB_Muerte
09-25-2003, 08:14 PM
I think you've all pretty much exhausted this topic...let it go.

I keep hearing "you cant kill an FC that doesnt want to be killed". If the FC is THAT good even kicks won't get to them, so whats the fuggin point? (hint: there isn't one..it's moot)

Were there NEVER any stalemates in JO CTF? If both teams had great FC's didnt the game come to a standstill?. Do you mean to propose that kick was such a HUGE part of strategy that it makes or breaks the game? I hardly think that Raven put kick in JO just to make S/O CTF viable.

Personally I dont give a crap whether they bring kick back or not, but you all really need to work on some new strategies rather than waste your time here.

I played some S/O CTF just to see what you're all talking about. Granted it wasn't the "uber-elite, I'm so much better than you crowd", but I caught AND killed the FC many times. I dont think they wanted to be caught either, because they would keep trying to run and avoid me...so I must be missing something about that whole argument (seriously..being able to avoid players is not an elite skill). BTW the only force I used was push/pull.

I know it won't make a bit of difference because you are all so tied up in the JO play style...but I guarantee there are ways to have good so/ff/ctf matches...you're all just too dependant on tactics that no longer work.

traj
09-25-2003, 08:25 PM
haha

You ask us to let it go, then make a bunch of assinine comments about a game you know nothing about, then flame us. Nice.

This has been explained WAY too many times. I won't do it again. If you took the time to read the posts around here, you would know why the games end in STALEMATES.

This is exhausted though, you're right about that.

Rumor
09-25-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by HFB_Muerte
I think you've all pretty much exhausted this topic...let it go.

I keep hearing "you cant kill an FC that doesnt want to be killed". If the FC is THAT good even kicks won't get to them, so whats the fuggin point? (hint: there isn't one..it's moot)

Were there NEVER any stalemates in JO CTF? If both teams had great FC's didnt the game come to a standstill?. Do you mean to propose that kick was such a HUGE part of strategy that it makes or breaks the game? I hardly think that Raven put kick in JO just to make S/O CTF viable.

Personally I dont give a crap whether they bring kick back or not, but you all really need to work on some new strategies rather than waste your time here.

I played some S/O CTF just to see what you're all talking about. Granted it wasn't the "uber-elite, I'm so much better than you crowd", but I caught AND killed the FC many times. I dont think they wanted to be caught either, because they would keep trying to run and avoid me...so I must be missing something about that whole argument (seriously..being able to avoid players is not an elite skill). BTW the only force I used was push/pull.

I know it won't make a bit of difference because you are all so tied up in the JO play style...but I guarantee there are ways to have good so/ff/ctf matches...you're all just too dependant on tactics that no longer work.


btw you played a newb. you won't get close enough to land anything in this game the majority of the time.

JO the cappers were just as good as they are now, and so's the returners, BUT the returners have no effective tools in JA. all of the capper's tools are still in tact.

Ardent
09-26-2003, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
JO the cappers were just as good as they are now, and so's the returners, BUT the returners have no effective tools in JA. all of the capper's tools are still in tact.

We got more actually. Not going to mention anything, but I definitely have four or five new tricks up my sleeve in JA.

Absorb has lost a bit of its ubiquitous goodness, but Protect is now ridiculously effective based on the few times I've toyed with it.

Rumor's point remains, however; returners and, perhaps even moreso defenders, are missing one of the vital links in their arsenal chain.

Kurgan
09-26-2003, 09:56 AM
I was thinking this over the other night (idle thoughts) and wondering logically how to solve your problem.

I was thinking, if, (as you say) it's impossible to kill a flag carrier using conventional means in Sabers Only (I assume meaning gripping them, Lightning, saber throw, etc) because they have "infinite mana and health" (due to people energizing and healing them constantly) why not do this:


Since your kicks are gone, compensate by having your FC attacking team employ similar tactics.

Constantly feed your attacker mana and health so he never dies and never stops hitting the FC. Thus somebody has to screw up and that's when it hits.

It's like a tennis match anyway, so why not just play it like that?

And with SaberDamageScale jacked up to 2 or 3 (or even higher) that means that even with all the mana in the world you can't possibly heal the guy fast enough to compensate for all that damage (or even dare I say one hit kills). Protect or no Protect...

There are of course other tricks to use in JA, like the rolling stabs (you say rolling is slow? combine it with speed or Rage), wall run (to get ahead of somebody), katas, staff kicks, etc.

In another thread folks were complaining about how "weak" they thought the single saber was vs. dual or saberstaff then they discovered the katas. I know what you're going to say, they "suck" because they miss?

Well if you can jump and land in the right spot you can cut up three people at once with it. Sure if you miss you're in big trouble (he'll get away) but that's where practice comes in. It doesn't have to be a "flashy but useless move."

Anyway, just some suggestions here.

PS: Are fists still usable in Sabers Only (give yourself zero points on Saber Attack)? I never thought to check...

Comm539
09-26-2003, 04:17 PM
Thats normally what happens, in JK2 aswell. Only 2 need energise, the rest drain, or just a healer and the attackers are pretty well safe.
However, the problem lies with actually stopping the fc in the first place. Kicks could ground and fc, but now he's free to run forever, with the attackers chasing him. Besides, its not really fun to pointlessly chase an fc every map, hoping that he's eventually slip up.

Kurgan
09-27-2003, 01:15 AM
Hmm, you can use staff kicks to know him to the ground. It's not as fast as flip kicks, but try it... you just have to get ahead of him or get him on a corner for a split second to land it.

I haven't tried jump kicks (with staff or melee), but that may be another option...

Grip of course would be perfect, but if he has full Absorb (and he's being energized constantly) that won't work.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 01:32 AM
I alredy said in another thread the solution was,

A low regen time.
And few force points (padawan or whatever), and also made clear that letting players choose ALL force powers available (jedi master) doesnt make the game more competitive or more fun.

And well, if you want more damage increase saber damage. :rolleyes:

And as Kurgan said, you can energize and heal your atacker too.
Or simply act as a team let one kill the energizer and you kill the FC.

Rumor
09-27-2003, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
I alredy said in another thread the solution was,

A low regen time.
And few force points (padawan or whatever), and also made clear that letting players choose ALL force powers available (jedi master) doesnt make the game more competitive or more fun.

And well, if you want more damage increase saber damage. :rolleyes:

And as Kurgan said, you can energize and heal your atacker too.
Or simply act as a team let one kill the energizer and you kill the FC.


lower regen time and you create a ton of new problems. not to mention that the capper wont even NEED a healer or energizer...

Originally posted by Rumor
clue·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klls)
adj.
Lacking understanding or knowledge.
i think that sums it up pretty well.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
lower regen time and you create a ton of new problems. not to mention that the capper wont even NEED a healer or energizer... [/B][/QUOTE]

Rumor with all respect, that coment is absolutely stupid :)
With low regen time your force regens slowly or very slowly.

Side
09-27-2003, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA


Rumor with all respect, that coment is absolutely stupid :)
With low regen time your force regens slowly or very slowly.


omg....i wont ever bother telling him,someone else do it

Rumor
09-27-2003, 05:46 AM
lower regen time means:

regen < 200

that means it regenerates faster.

faster regen = pull/push/heal/whatever spammage

faster regen = no need to learn to manage your force.

faster regen = for n00bz or someone ****ing off trying out new ****.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 06:45 AM
Well it would have more sense if low regen time means lower time to regen, but you must know more than me about those technical details.

And actually that way you learn to really think how you are gona use force and you wont whore absorb or speed.
Ctf servers have slow force regeneration and few force points to choose.
But you said in another thread that you played with all force powers and with normal regen time, thats why you have all those troubles of people energizing and healing FC.

Just think about it would ya, then reply.
I am trying to be nice here showing you all very politely that the solution is what i said in my above post.

the weiner dog!
09-27-2003, 08:26 AM
vegeta, saying "don't use this force" or "lower the force" to solve the problem is like us saying to a gunner "well just have everyone not pick up that gun and only pick up this one" if there were a balance issue.

Remember back when people wanted longer duels in 1.02 so they lowered damage scales?

It is the same type of response if I would have said "well all you guys need to do is duel in light stance only, there problem solved".


This is master (rank 7) level full force saber only combat, the regen time is left at default (200) because ladders and leagues require it to be that.

Same goes for saber damage scales being the solution, as many and many of us have pointed out *stopping the guy is the #1 problem.

I know a lot of you may judge CTF by what you see when you play it now and then but trust me; these cappers don't play like the average Joe you are running into on public servers.

In Outcast these same cappers would have 5-6 guys on their ass an still, even with all of the kicks and combos, drag these guys along for 15 minutes all because of how incredibly skilled at evasive tactics they were.

Now in Academy, those evasive skills are not only just as good, they are better due to the wall grabs and such.

Problem is the means to kill them got worse due to the lack of those said kicks and combos.

Sabers could not do it before (too slow) and it’s not going to be the answer this time around either.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 10:41 AM
Well all the ctf matches i played in 1.02 were like that, maybe in 1.04 they changed it.

It makes perfect sense to me, the problem is that you are used to play like that, thats why you think its silly.
You just have to change your JO standards.
Even in jedi master level and a normal regen time you are still able to kill the FC, if they are been helped by their teammates, you must be helped too. You are just not being open minded.
I am sure you are a good ctf player, but you are letting yourself get too frustrated for the changes in JA.
Maybe the "official rules" now have to change, think about it.

Dfa is useles against people in the ground, but try it against enemys in mid air and you will see, 2/3 of health out.
I even got a one hit kill (in SP though).

Single saber is very powerfull, you just have to know how to use it, for example, the right side slash can kill an enemy, you hit twice with it, one when your saber is on your back and the other when its infront (same with every move). Stuff like that, that not everybody has figure out yet.

This monday ill get JA :D <----------- HAPPY

the weiner dog!
09-27-2003, 10:54 AM
Vegeta you said you never played 1.04, trust me, I've played all versions of Jedi Outcast, you have no idea how different 1.02 and 1.04 are.

Especially sabers.

On Monday when you get JA I want to invite you and anyone else to come to our server (we should be up next week).

Not for matches or to humiliate anyone but as a demonstration as to how utterly impossible it is to kill experienced players.

I guarantee any of you I can drag a match with any of you out for as long as I like because you will be totally unable to cause any significant damage to me even if you do land all of your hits.


I also guarantee that even 5 of you on defense could not stop a single lone *unescorted capper from taking your flag in a game of CTF, nor could you 5 return it by going to our base and killing him.


I know a lot of you guys are basing your "well I don't have trouble killing people now" opinions on the fact you are killing noobs on ffa servers with Katas, but it's a different ball game in the world we play in, trust me you will see if you come play with us.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 11:04 AM
I guess you havent thought enough on what i said.
Good, ill be on your demonstration.
PM me.
But give me some time to know the game ;)


By the way people dont trust Fed ex, it sux, my game was suposed to arrive on friday, but ill get it on monday. :mad:

Rumor
09-27-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
I guess you havent thought enough on what i said.
Good, ill be on your demonstration.
PM me.
But give me some time to know the game ;)


By the way people dont trust Fed ex, it sux, my game was suposed to arrive on friday, but ill get it on monday. :mad:

mucho respect for that.

gj dude you have more balls than 99% of the people here.

[fk]myth.
09-27-2003, 08:14 PM
What I still don't understand is

A) Why are people who have no knowledge of Saber Only CTF posting here. This matter does not concern you. Move along.

B) This won't effect your gametypes. If what you say is true, and you and the rest of the game except S/O CTF doesn't like Kick, then how would a cvar hurt you. But of course, we all know cvars are the devil.

Like the weiner dog! said.

g_allowkick 0-1
g_specialforcerestrictions 0-1
g_griplosrestriction 0-1

What the hell is the problem with that? Don't like kick? Don't go to a server which has g_allowkick set to 1. You're happy, we're happy, we can all get back to our lives. 1.01 includes those cvars and this debate ENDS and everyone enjoys the game. Game Over. End of story.

teddy.div
09-27-2003, 08:27 PM
UR ALL BASTARDS

JK3 SUCKS

I DOWNLOADIN THAT GAME FOR FREE AND I WANT MY ****IN MONE"Y BACK

noide
09-27-2003, 08:45 PM
teddy try to post something productive
gg

teddy.div
09-27-2003, 08:47 PM
naw im here to flame

and flame i shale

heheh sup j00

Prime
09-27-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by teddy.div
naw im here to flame Never would have guessed.

Originally posted by teddy.div
and flame i shale Not for much longer...

teddy.div
09-27-2003, 09:20 PM
k