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dyehead
09-25-2003, 12:19 AM
This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing

Anyone notice that the single saber has nowhere near the destructive power of the dual sabers or the light staff?

Red stance:

The DFA has been rendered practically useless, even with mouse sensitivity INCREDIBLY low, and the cursor DIRECTLY on the enemy, when I land, it usually doesn't hit. In JO, I was a master of the DFA, as were most people, I imagine.. but I particularly had the knack of landing it about 95% of the time. I think in the entire week that I've been playing JA, I have killed people 2 or 3 times, and one was an afk.

I have even MISSED afk'ers, or hit them with it and not killed them.

The equivalent moves for the other 2 sabers seem to be 1 hit kills, and have a much wider striking range.

Yellow stance:

The Yellow DFA seems to also be useless. Even when the enemy is directly in front of me, I do not seem to hit them, I haven't tested it as extensively as I have with the red DFA, but this also seems fairly useless.

Blue stance:

The blue lunge seems a bit more difficult to do in JA, I seem to end up rolling more than I'm lunging, then again, it was never my forte', as it was when you could do it in mid-air... I loved the chugchugchugchug you down from high places, was great to not take fall damage :)

Now onto the dual saber and light staff:

I have used both a fair amount, (probably not enough to say I'm really proficient) but it seems to me that these saber styles have an advantage over single saber.

Last night I was in the middle of a Red DFA, and someone did a 'butterfly' or something, and killed me in mid air, when I had 100/25 health/shields.

I guess I find that kind of depressing, considering the former lethal potential of ANYTHING getting in the way of a DFA..

Also, in the various attacks with both the light staff and the dual sabers, they seem to penetrate saber blocking more than the single saber, the light staff does more damage than the solo saber (heavy) in a regular diagonal strike.

If I'm close to anyone with the dual sabers and they just spam attack, I'm usually dead right away, it seems.. I verified this while using it in a crowd of people.

Anyone notice anything similar to this? I'd love to know if I'm the only one who thinks that the sabers are a bit out of balance.

-=DyeHead

dyehead
09-25-2003, 12:23 AM
Oh, and I suppose I should comment on the required use of force for all decent saber moves, that's pretty annoying.. heh.. Especially since DFA is practically impossible to hit, the cost of force should give you a better ROI.

Oh and another thought..

Alternate fire on light staff (kick) takes no force points from force selection, while saber throw does...

I'd rather trade saber throw (single saber) in for kick :)

idontlikegeorge
09-25-2003, 12:34 AM
Oh, so you mean JA sabers feel like 1.03+ JO sabers? Wow.

Duh. But atleast there is the fancy new stances and moves. Isn't that what most modern gamers want? Style over substance?

But keep whining about the game a week after it's been out. Maybe we can get JA 1.03 patch! THAT WILL FIX ALL! YAY!

[div3rse.jello]
09-25-2003, 12:36 AM
eh..you one of the nubs that dropped out of jk2 because "omg i cant turn when i dfa" patch came out?

laff

boinga1
09-25-2003, 01:00 AM
Sinlge saber does not need help. I walked onto a server today where every person had a double or dual sabers. I used a single saber, and got like 30 kills in 15 min (above average for me).

The thing is, you have to use katas. That's the only way. Regular sinlg esaber swipes, save the occasional lucky red hit, can't beat double/dualsabers. Heck, a red stance kata can't even beat a dual saber twirl. BUT YOU CAN KILL WITH A SINGLE SABER.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:04 AM
Quite right boinga, I've used only the single sabre all week, and I've had no trouble fighting dual sabreists.

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:05 AM
So in order to kill someone I need to use 50 force, and someone with a dual saber or light staff does not?

Did you miss my point entirely?

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:07 AM
So in order to kill someone I need to use 50 force, and someone with a dual saber or light staff does not?

Did you miss my point entirely?You have no point. Back in JO, you learned to use the most powerful moves to win. Now learn to use the most powerful sabre styles in JA to win, and stop asking for your OLD favourites to be boosted up in some premature patch.

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:07 AM
Do you know how easy it is to avoid a kata? Please..

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:08 AM
Old favorite? oohh You mean overhead red slash, yeah, go figure, I suppose a light saber cutting through you from head to toe shouldn't do much damage.

Nor should one slicing through your entire torso from left to right, I suppose.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:10 AM
Old favorite? oohh You mean overhead red slash, yeah, go figure, I suppose a light saber cutting through you from head to toe shouldn't do much damage.Ohh you want REALISTIC lightsabres?

Only... lightsabres don't exist man, sorry to burst your bubble. They're not real.

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:15 AM
I think you dodged the point as if it were an arrow careening at you, Al.

I was comparing the saber damage from solo saber to the other sabers.

One hit from the others does a helluva lot more damage than a single red slash.

Man, you are thicker than Oprah's thighs.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:19 AM
YOU meant that you thought your OLD favourite moves from JO should do more damage in JA than they do. You tried to justify that by saying that if a lightsabre passes through the length of the body (as it does in red overhead) it should do LOADSA DAMAGE! YUS!

Obviously you're not familiar with the fact that lightsabres are entirely imaginary and can do as much or as little damage as Raven wants.

You want REAL STARWARS ACTION! Ain't gonna happen. Go and watch the first twenty of RotJ again. ;)

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:21 AM
Anyone else see him missing the point? Heh...

How is a light saber damaging in one form, but not another?

Supposedly made of the same thing, no?

Imagine you had one blaster rifle, and your friend had another blaster, they were the same blaster, but his did more damage.

Get the point?

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:23 AM
Anyone else see him missing the point? Heh...

How is a light saber damaging in one form, but not another?

Supposedly made of the same thing, no?
Hee hee, what, imaginary laser light? Who says this game has to be realistic? I bet you can quote the relevant line from Star Wars in which Obi-Wan says "Red overhead strike does the same damage as dual left-right slash, Luke, so use red!" :p

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:26 AM
Ok, now you're arguing just to argue.

Anyone else?

Prime
09-25-2003, 01:28 AM
Actually, I have been quite happy (and pretty successful) using the single saber. I'll probably play around with the other stances a bit more to see what they are like though. But I don't find that I am at a disadvantage with the single. As for Katas, I find that timing is everything. If you start when someone is a distance away, of course they are going to stay back. But if they want to hit you, they have to get close, and when I time it right I find katas deadly. Not to mention they are great in a crowd in FFA :)

Just my experience so far.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:29 AM
Ok, now you're arguing just to argue. Umm... good response.

Seriously, you should stop asking Raven to make JA into JO. I don't even know why you bought the darn thing, you're just like Jimmy Stewart in Vertigo, trying to mould a perfectly good looking wench (game) into the image of your dead lover. (JO.)

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:32 AM
Thanks for the input, prime.

I also noticed that the blocking system is a bit off, I'll have my saber go through people, and it doesn't hit, again I have only noticed this with single saber.

Darth_Pnut
09-25-2003, 01:37 AM
I agree with every saber problem stated, dyehead. The entire saber system still needs work if ya ask me. It's like we are playing beta JA, (hum....much like the release of a certain popular Star Wars MMORPG......)

Also dark side force dominates, you can drain whore someone and never died if ya want. 90% percent of people use Dark Side, and Staff or Dual Sabers. It's very dissapointing. Playing FFA takes no skill, pick dual or staff, spam katta....drain whore people, spam katta, rinse repeat....

There are ways around the katta problem, but you need staff to really deal with it (kick them), but it really can't be done in the mass glob of lightsabers, and spammed moves that flood any FFA.

Again, saber system needs reworking...raven better be working on a patch....

Pnut

dyehead
09-25-2003, 01:38 AM
Seriously, you should read the forum title, notice the specific request for you not to involve yourself?

Seriously, you shouldn't tell other people what to do. You are in no position of power anywhere, which is probably why you take your aggression out on people in forums.

boinga1
09-25-2003, 01:39 AM
Well, logically, a doublesaber does more damage because:
a) it has two blades
b)they can be swung faster.

A dualsaber does more damage because:
a) there are two blades
b) two blades swung at once do more damage than one swung alone. :D

Prime
09-25-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
I also noticed that the blocking system is a bit off, I'll have my saber go through people, and it doesn't hit, again I have only noticed this with single saber. I've noticed my saber go through a coulpe of times to. But I have also noticed it a bit with the saberstaff as well. It seems less pronounced because the blades are moving so much faster, especially when compared to red stance. With red you are likely to notice it much more.

Most likely this is do to lag, and code that must deal with lag. MP collision detection is bound to be less accurate than SP. That's just the nature of the beast, unfortunately. I don't think there is much Raven can do about it. However, in JO you could turn on SP collision detection with cvar. I assume this is possible with JA also...

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 01:47 AM
The "wtf, that landed?" factor is ghoul2 related.

The two jk2/ja modders I have spoken to recently both seem 100% convinced on that based on their knowledge of the build from the previous game and the little change in the code in this one.

The special 25 force penalty is just plain silly.

I know it's there so "people don't spam moves" (this is the typical newbie argument in favor of this) but when you have weaker sabers to begin with and erratic hit detection, it's kind of overkill don't you think?

The only time I've found the Kata to be of any use is when I play on servers that have the regen time lowered to 0 and I am able to do them every other second due to the fast regen rate.

In a server with a default regen of 200 doing one is pure suicide unless you are playing a "how do I put colors in my name?" type of player.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:49 AM
Seriously, you shouldn't tell other people what to do. You are in no position of power anywhere, which is probably why you take your aggression out on people in forums.I didn't tell you what to do. How do you know I'm not? And I take my aggression out on my dinner, thanks. Chop that meat up! WRAAAH! :D

Seriously, you should read the forum title, notice the specific request for you not to involve yourself?

/me flips through response cards

Ah, this'll do:

"Seriously, you shouldn't tell other people what to do. You are in no position of power anywhere, which is probably why you take your aggression out on people in forums."

dyehead
09-25-2003, 02:06 AM
/me flips through response cards

Ah, this'll do:

"Seriously, you shouldn't tell other people what to do. You are in no position of power anywhere, which is probably why you take your aggression out on people in forums."


Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

Pnut, thank you for your input, I'm glad someone else has noticed the things I'm talking about.

Prime
09-25-2003, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
The "wtf, that landed?" factor is ghoul2 related.

The two jk2/ja modders I have spoken to recently both seem 100% convinced on that based on their knowledge of the build from the previous game and the little change in the code in this one.

The special 25 force penalty is just plain silly.

I know it's there so "people don't spam moves" (this is the typical newbie argument in favor of this) but when you have weaker sabers to begin with and erratic hit detection, it's kind of overkill don't you think?

The only time I've found the Kata to be of any use is when I play on servers that have the regen time lowered to 0 and I am able to do them every other second due to the fast regen rate.

In a server with a default regen of 200 doing one is pure suicide unless you are playing a "how do I put colors in my name?" type of player. You may be right about the technical stuff, I haven't looked at the code myself.

But I don't feel I have to apologize for having fun playing in JA MP. Competative players can keep calling me a newb and saying my opinions don't matter or whatever for being happy with the game I bought, I can take the constant flames. There are things I would like to see too, like upped saber damage, but overall I am happy with JA. Maybe I'm playing with lots of lesser players, who knows? But if competative players are going to look down on me because I am having fun, so be it.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 02:15 AM
There are competitive players who behave like children, but there are newbies who behave like children. I wouldn't diss all "esportsmen" Prime. ;)

AxVegetA
09-25-2003, 02:35 AM
Is MP gameplay and saber damage the same as in SP?

[div3rse.jello]
09-25-2003, 02:49 AM
Congrats Vegeta

your first non flaming post

we love you and hate al now

:D

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Prime
You may be right about the technical stuff, I haven't looked at the code myself.

But I don't feel I have to apologize for having fun playing in JA MP. Competative players can keep calling me a newb and saying my opinions don't matter or whatever for being happy with the game I bought, I can take the constant flames. There are things I would like to see too, like upped saber damage, but overall I am happy with JA. Maybe I'm playing with lots of lesser players, who knows? But if competative players are going to look down on me because I am having fun, so be it.


Prime I personally don't look at people as "noobs" until they start telling me how to play something they do not even have a clue about.

You said you know little about kick mechanics and ff/so CTF, so you asked for us to clarify.

That I respect, as do the rest of us.

Al makes the same "I don’t play this" comment then proceeds to lecture us on game play that he does not even partake in.

That no one respects, and hence when he continues doing it over and over we start to lash out at him.



And if you are having fun, great, I'm glad you enjoy the game.

But really can you honestly say putting in a few *toggle cvars is going to ruin your fun?

Most casual players and competitive players never even met in Jedi Outcast.

The learning curve on our servers was frustrating for the average Joe so they avoided ours.

We could never figure out why people just stood around chatting in their servers so we avoided them (for the most part) as well.


And really let's be frank, do we have to drive player after player out of this game until it's only the "die hard star wars fan who will buy anything put in front of them" left?

That is the direction this is going in.

You guys all remember how bad JK2 got in the last year, it was almost impossible to find a server that actually let you play the game and not punish/ban/kick/sleep people because they did not RPG or w/e you want to call it.


Drive an entire faction of "screw the RPG crap, let's play this damn game!" players from this community and it just gets closer and closer to that reality.

BS87
09-25-2003, 02:55 AM
The thing i've noticed while using single sabers, is that you tend to get deflected alot more. As in, you swing, sabers touch, and your guy swings his arm out as if to do a disco move or balance himself. Which conpletly leaves you open to attacks. I've almost *never* had this happen using the other sabers. Also, since i use Twin sabers alot, i've notice that at various points in the kata (Where they spin around you) You are invincible to dammage. I've had people roll in and stab me, DFA me, lunge me, etc, and not takken 1 point of dmg. I've found its usually at the beginning of the animation.

dyehead
09-25-2003, 02:58 AM
I have noticed that as well, BS87..

Thank you for pointing that out.

AxVegetA
09-25-2003, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
Is MP gameplay and saber damage the same as in SP?

Is this really that hard to answer? i am just demanding a yes or no.

DeliriumenD
09-25-2003, 03:19 AM
I've noticed that too about the sinlge saber. I've also noticed that single saber seems to lose it's saber the most. Even more often than twin sabers, which I find odd as you'd think the guy with both hands on one saber would have a better grip and control than the guy with one hand on a saber.

I mostly play duel/power duel and I've noticed that I rely a lot more on force draining moves with the single saber (roll and stab, kata, etc) than I have to when using twin or dual sabers.

The sabers themselves are mostly balanced, just a bit of tweaking needed here and there. I'd like to see the "grip" on your saber be increased for single saber, and I'd like to see a cost reduction on the normal special moves for it, but aside from that I like it.

The developers have said for a while that while that while the three saber types are balanced (dual sabers, doule-saber, single saber) the single saber users are going to have it a bit more challenging to be as good. Basically, with the twin/dual sabers and double saber you can get away with mashing the keys a bit more. Where as with the single saber you need to use your strikes when best needed.

dyehead
09-25-2003, 03:24 AM
Thanks for that Delirium...

part of my point was that I know how to aim a saber, I know how to strike at an open spot. The thing is, when I do, (with red stance) I do little or no damage. But even if I'm in blue stance just standing there, the dual sabers or light staff users can just come in and spam attack on me and kill me almost instantly.

And to Vegeta, the gameplay is much different, you're playing against PEOPLE, not computers :)

Plus, red slash is wayyyy faster in SP than in MP.

[div3rse.jello]
09-25-2003, 03:57 AM
vegeta..

in sp the guys kinda go down with one saber hit

so you cant really compare the two lol

AxVegetA
09-25-2003, 06:24 AM
You must keep in mind that single saber, dual and staff must be all at the same level. They tuned down red stance to balance the gameplay.

You have to play the game for more than month to make a reasonable and constructive critic.

I would prefer more deadly swings (one or two hit kills with red and specials) but well maybe Raven tried to introduce a new kind of gameplay.

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 07:00 AM
best tip I ever got in jk2 when doing a ptk was to aim for the knees or shins.

works the same in JA, aim low to get under the deflection zone when doing a toss.

Kurgan
09-25-2003, 07:00 AM
Well, by some people's logic, every saber move should do the exact same amount of damage (instantly fatal).

There is also no logical reason why swinging the saber slower (Red Stance) should do more damage.

So in the end, you have to make an entirely different game...

Is that what you guys really want?


I think they did a fine job of sacrificing "realism" (in universe) in favor of game balance and fun.

I can't comment on the single saber in MP so much because I honestly haven't even used it that often. I've mainly been playing with Dual, Saberstaff or using Guns and Force. But when I do, I'm sure I'll notice that people are just getting carried away calling it "useless" because it's different. That's usually what happens, sorry to say...

dyehead
09-25-2003, 07:14 AM
True, Kurgan, but the way that Raven has designed it, they distribute damage by speed of slash. Obviously the slower moves should do more damage, because you're investing more time in it, and it needs to be more carefully planned.

As it is, moves with the light staff and dual sabers do way more damage and go through defenses more than a red slash.

No one has really commented on my DFA point, how it's nearly impossible to hit it now, and when you do, it does practically no damage. You used to be able to take more time to aim it (due to the way that it was actually executed), but now you need to pretty much be running at your target, hope he's standing still, and then execute the move. I probably haven't mastered it yet, but I can get it off about 80% of the time to the location that I want it, 10% of the time somewhere near it, and 10% of the time it just doesn't execute properly. I'm not sure that I like the fact that the same keystrokes do different moves for all the different saber types.

Anyway, to make a long story short, in my opinion, red slash should do the most damage out of any normal slash, and I mean by far.

What advantage does someone who has 1 saber have in a saber lock with someone with dual sabers? Nothing, they're dead.

If I quantified bonuses with sabers into points, e.g. specials etc and how much they would be worth to a player, single saber would end up on the bottom.

I have never played weiner dog, but I played a lot of NF SO duels in my JO days, and I remember playing break a few times. He was really good, but he never totally whooped me, it was always close..

I did get banned from the jedi academy for whooping on the jedi masters, though.. that was funny :)

Anyway, point is, I know how to use a saber, fairly well at that. I may be out of practice, but I know when I take 4 swipes at someone with the red saber and they haven't healed, drained, or team healed, and it takes a 5th blow to kill them... that something is wrong. Because that person will finally get in close enough to me with a dual saber, take one swing at me, and take me from 100/25 to dead.

ShogunBlade
09-25-2003, 09:07 AM
Well i have noticed in my tinkerings...
1) single saber should be brought inline with the other new sabers..

2) dual sabers require little to no skill to perform amazing feats of damage (we call them cheese sticks)

3)saberstaff while fun and nice to play with have some flaws as far as damage goes as well

4) dual sabers have too high of a defense even while swinging.. and there is no damage tradeoff there (no real combo system either) basicly all one has to do is hold button 1 down and press a direction and unless the person they are facing knows thier stuff the dual saberist will win 95% of the time because they cant be hit.. whats more is the rediculous range that the dual sabers have.. no joke i have blocked a wild swing at what i suppose would be 20 feet away in scale of the game (pretty bad)

5) saberstaffs combos are great but what about the single saber on the staff.. no specials?

6) seems to me that both the dfa of red and yellow never land even when the person is right infront of you non moving (this is truth here these moves were once good in JO they suck in JA worthless..

7) i think force costs of the more destructive moves should be higher ie: butterfly and twirls and katas.. these moves will kill you in 1 hit but in the case of butterflies its only one force block 25 points for an either insta kill or a very debilitating blow that decides the game if one is caught in the damage path.. i think all these moves should be moved up 25 force points for the staff and dual sabers

8) kick is buggy.. sometimes i can kick someone and instantly kill them no matter how much life they have

9) lower the defences of dual sabers.. look even the almighty darthvader had a problem weilding two sabers.. i understand its supposed to reflect your skill in saber mastery or whatnot.. but it should really be more of a finesse weapon scheme not something that you have to use a staff or red stance in single saber to hit them

I play with saberstaff and have gotten good at the combos with it.. while not as devastating as the dual sabers basic attacks it does pack a punch.. damage needs to go down a hair same with dual sabers which needs to go down a bunch more.. remember it is blue stance that the style is based from..

i would like to see a combo system implemented for the dual sabers too (if there is one i havent seen it yet and i have tried lol)

basicly the staff and dual sabers are supposed to be rare.. in multiplayer and in single player everyone has em.. make it more difficult to use these sabers by nerfing the damage on em.. however.. allow for combo strikes that can add up damage totals.. staff has this somewhat but again its no where near what it should be..

basicly what im tryin to say is instead of people holding down a button and then going left and right to win duels they will be forced to either pick up a single saber or.. learn a combo system for the new stuff so that its not the noobie choice weapon

if single sabers were more inline with the newer stuff id use the single sabers every time..

one last thing for weapons as clumsy as a staff and 2 swords they sure do swing awfully fast which kinda kills the single saberist because of the stance issues and not being able to land hits unless they use red stance..
maybe make single sabers a lil faster per stance or slow the new stuff down.. in close quarters i would think that the single saber would be the better weapon just using logic here..

i mean i could be wrong but if i were fighting someone with a baseball bat against someone with two baseball bats in each hand in a very enclosed space.. that dood would have his head caved in before long unless he was very very good (combo system)

anyway those are my thoughts...
sorry bout the bad grammar it is 3 am im tired night all

BloodRiot
09-25-2003, 09:28 AM
Well... i dunno if I agree with Al on most things...but I sure agree with him in anything related to whinning for patches...even if it's things I want in... for instance yeah I want beefed up saber... except I like the game anyway and I can always set up my own server and beef them um myself with cvars.

To my knowledge, whinning for patches was never a good thing. No one can say Raven doesn't care. They helped me start modeling for JO, the answer forum question to help players, they even made the mistake of being all too nice to listen to some whinners and put out their greatest mistake called 1.03. The way I see it, 1.04 was just re-sealing pandora's box. And if I was them... I would dare not open it again.

On the "We want kick back" thread ppl (weinerdog i think) was asking the ppl agaisnt kick comming back for solutions... I provided the cvar solution... no comment was made on that... I took that as solutions dont really matter... the begging for an answer was just sand in the wind... you dont want alternative solutions... you want kick back period.

I sometimes play solo mp miode to practice moves. I tried saberdamage scale factor 5 and it's a sure kill within 1 to 3 hits...sometimes more depending on how it hits, what move you are doing,what saber you are playing with and how much health and shield the opponent has.

Duels can become really short yes... but it also can go the other way around. Think of FFA system and a Last Man Standing system... in which type are you most afraid to be fragged and because of that you try to be more careful and possibly...more skillful. "Fear is the Path to the Dark Side"...in gamming terms... "Fear of getting fragged makes you play with your brains...thinking before you act". But I dont expect nor do I want to sell my style of playing to you...it's not my place to do so. But I was just pointing out an alternative way. Something that does not require a Raven patch.

Regarding usefulness of the tricks...Prime said it all. Timming is everything. So some bloke does the twin saber barrier on duel vs me... I roll back out of reach, then it's it's almost over I roll forward and do the stab move... bad for him. But a twin saber user gets ganged by the opposing team and does the barrier... he will score some in the middle of the confusion.

I'm just pointing out examples ppl. My advice..explore. And If you happen to know what Im talking about already, then you can only enjoy argueing or simply want to turn this from a JA standalone game into a JO mod.

As a final note: I'm not flamming nor am i telling you what to do.. I'm simply throwing a few examples and yes I do fear the consequences of a premature patch. Since everyone would enjoy diferent things it's impossible to please everyone and this type of post will always be present im afraid... but that's US not Raven... and putting myself on Raven's shoes once again I would trust proffesional oppinions that (at least in theory) are not clouded by personal POV's of how the game should be.

Cheers.

Th4tguy
09-25-2003, 01:04 PM
Setting the saber damage up and stuff will increase the damage but i believe that in tournaments they will use base JA settings so the increased damages will work in the pick up games but not when it gets down to competitive play in tournaments.

traj
09-25-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by dyehead
This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing

Anyone notice anything similar to this? I'd love to know if I'm the only one who thinks that the sabers are a bit out of balance.

-=DyeHead

Speedo Al wrote:

"Seriously, you should stop asking Raven to make JA into JO. I don't even know why you bought the darn thing, you're just like Jimmy Stewart in Vertigo, trying to mould a perfectly good looking wench (game) into the image of your dead lover. (JO.)"





Read the first post in the thread Al. "This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing". Nowhere in this thread has he asked for a change of anything. Have a sip of tea, learn to read more carefully, and be quiet for once.

Comm539
09-25-2003, 02:25 PM
I don't see how weilding two sabers shows 'finnese'. I would think its because your not good enough to beat someone with a single saber. But thats just me...
I think a single saber should do much more damage (especially red swings). You get people stood spamming duel sabers, you can give them two downwards hacks, but they still don't die. They just put speed on and follow you, spamming random swings.

Just things i noticed/ think should be fixed:

Swinging a saber doesn't seem to slow you down any more.

God knows why rolling was nurfed. Its pointless now. It doesn't speed you up and it doesn't move you enough to dodge a saber swing.

Duel and staff have no combo limit. I think they should have a three combo limit like red stance or a 4 combo limit. At least something to stop a constant spamming attack.

I think duel sabers should be powerful, but have weak defence.

Staff be less powerful, but have a good defence.

Single saber even defence and attack.

kazesan
09-25-2003, 02:31 PM
In duels I find single saber to be under powered. In one normal hit (no specials) I can be killed by a dual or staff user. I wish single would get an increase in damage by 10-15 pts per swing for yellow and blue.

In FFA single can hold its own though. I have beaten many staff and dual wielders with single. Of course it was FF FFA and the duel was NF so that made a difference.

I think duel is really the only gametype is peril. In siege you don't spend alot of time dueling and in CTF you don't sit around challenging people. I wish all gametypes could be balanced but that may not happen. I have fun in FFA siege and CTF though so I can be content with 3 gametypes.

Prime
09-25-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
But really can you honestly say putting in a few *toggle cvars is going to ruin your fun? I don't have a problem with CVAR control over kicks. Personally I don't want to play with kicks in the same form as JO. So I'd like servers with kick enabled to be clearly marked in the browser screen with a little icon or something. Then I can avoid those servers outright if I want, and not have to join to find out if it is set, or search through the server information window. This was one of the big problems I had with some mod servers. I didn't like the double saber in JO, so I wanted to avoid those servers, but I usually didn't find out they were enabled until I went on the server.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Most casual players and competitive players never even met in Jedi Outcast. Point taken. Since I played on public servers and did consistently well, I just assumed that the really good players just played somewhere else. I know there were lots of players out better than me, but for the most part I didn't seem to run into too many, since where I was playing I was one of the best players.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
We could never figure out why people just stood around chatting in their servers so we avoided them (for the most part) as well.I gave up trying to figure that out a long time ago :)

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
And really let's be frank, do we have to drive player after player out of this game until it's only the "die hard star wars fan who will buy anything put in front of them" left?I do not want to drive anyone out. But there are lots of people who are defending the competative player position, and I feel I need to defend the "casual player" position so that our desires are heard too. I feel that the way I want to play is just as important as anyone else's.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
You guys all remember how bad JK2 got in the last year, it was almost impossible to find a server that actually let you play the game and not punish/ban/kick/sleep people because they did not RPG or w/e you want to call it.I remember all to well.

JOE2TIGER
09-25-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by dyehead
Anyone else see him missing the point? Heh...

How is a light saber damaging in one form, but not another?

Supposedly made of the same thing, no?

Imagine you had one blaster rifle, and your friend had another blaster, they were the same blaster, but his did more damage.

Get the point?It is possible for one blaster rifle do more damage than the other even though they both start out with initially same energy. Perhaps, the environment and time itself degrades the blaster's laser or energy projectile.

Concerning light sabers, let say there are things that can be like a light saber. Some may as well be more damage inflicting, can cut through steel faster than the other at a quicker pace. Depending on how much energy is radiating in the saber.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 04:22 PM
Read the first post in the thread Al. "This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing". Nowhere in this thread has he asked for a change of anything. Have a sip of tea, learn to read more carefully, and be quiet for once.How immature and patronising. What a shame. :(

Dyehead's intent is clear from all his posts. This thread is designed to galvanise more whiner support for a premature patch. If you can't see that (which of course you can, you're merely dishonest to yourself and everyone else as well :D ) then you're the one that needs to learn to read more carefully.

Bloodriot, good post. Premature patching is historically bad for any game it afflicts.

Finally, one of the reasons there were so many RPGing fools in servers all over the world was because the bite was taken out of the game by 1.03. A premature patch. I certainly noticed an upcurve in the number of RPGers after the ill-advised 1.03, and a downcurve in serious players. Many good, skilled players left the game because of whiners lobbying for a premature patch.

Take heed.

traj
09-25-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Speedo AL
How immature and patronising. What a shame. :(

Reminds me of every single post I've read from you. Guess you're rubbing off on me. :(

Originally posted by Speedo AL Premature patching is historically bad for any game it afflicts.
[/B]

Too bad we're not talking about patching in this thread. Find the right one please. You're spewing your anti-patch nonsense in every thread intended to discuss gameplay. Give it a rest.

Originally posted by Speedo AL

Dyehead's intent is clear from all his posts.

Agreed. His intent is to talk about game play with other people who play the game.

Your intent is crystal clear as well. But in here, we are discussing things that people have noticed about game play. Not having some underground rally for patch support. Lose the conspiracy theories.

Cmon Al, can't we have one place to DISCUSS things in the game that people NOTICE without having to hear your drivel?

I knew you'd understand, thanks.

lilJedi
09-25-2003, 04:59 PM
since Ive been here I like spider AL. he seems respectfull and intelligent most of the time, im not sure why he has chosen to be so sarcastic as far as this discussion goes..

but anyway, i think the problem is not that the single saber is nerfed in any way...but just as was stated, that it is easier to just click fest with a dual or saber staff because of all the spinning, and with 2 blades in each case, it has a longer reach in terms of strike distance, and a double effect. where as one blade might miss, the other one is going to come around soon and hit.

i said that to say that these sabers just make things easier for a player, especially a new player or old players who still are not that good with a single saber. therefore they go with the easy solution of the dual and staff.

you just have to be really skilled with the single to compete with them, and realise they have two and you have one...and fight to suit accrobatics and out manouvering have a lot to play. remember your not just trying to swing your side at them from the front expecting you'll get a hit or a damaging hit and expect to win... your point is to move to the side, and slash where there saber is not, and the next best thing is it will only be partially deflected.

it seems to me like you wish you could just use the single saber and swing and hit. no matter where you swing, if you go head on slashing away...but remember what i said above...you'll always lose in that circumstance.

if you want to be traditional like me...and i use the single...then dont just press the left mouse button while moving into an enemy.

the only disadvantage it has is one blade. however, if raven find something they think they can do with any mechanic of it...i leave that to them

dyehead
09-25-2003, 05:04 PM
That's why I asked for you to specifically steer clear of this thread, Al.. But your ego won that battle apparently.

Thank you for the most recent posts re: single saber damage.

It appears as though others have noticed the same things I have regarding this, and I really appreciate you all giving me concise information regarding this. Having info this precise makes it heaps better and easier to understand exactly what you're trying to say :)

So the concensus so far is that people are noticing that single saber damage is:
a) less potent than dual sabers and the light staff
b) seems to have worse defense than dual sabers and the light staff
c) the specials for the single saber are nowhere near as useful as those for the dual sabers and the light staff.

Thanks agan.

Comm539
09-25-2003, 05:14 PM
And the combo limit on a single saber. There isn't a combo limit on duel or staff and since your outnumbered with blades, I don't think this makes sense. 3 combo limit on staff/duel sabers would be better imo.

Agen
09-25-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by dyehead
So the concensus so far is that people are noticing that single saber damage is:
a) less potent than dual sabers and the light staff
b) seems to have worse defense than dual sabers and the light staff
c) the specials for the single saber are nowhere near as useful as those for the dual sabers and the light staff.

Yet most of the 'good' saberists 'I see' are single saberists. Who cares if it is less potent, worst defence, if the players who CHOSE TO USE IT can win (They made their choice, it wasn't forced upon them) then what is your problem?

dyehead
09-25-2003, 05:31 PM
I suppose it's frustrating to be carefully timing all of my swings, and have some random Padawan with a light staff or dual sabers bounce along and kill me with one hit *completely randomly* which happens far too often.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 05:55 PM
traj:

Reminds me of every single post I've read from you. Guess you're rubbing off on me.How unoriginal, accusing the accuser of the same crime. It won't wash. You really should clean up your act. You may be playing to your friends, but you're just showing yourself up with all these flames.

Too bad we're not talking about patching in this thread. Find the right one please. You're spewing your anti-patch nonsense in every thread intended to discuss gameplay. Give it a rest. Heh heh, this thread is intended to discuss what Dyehead thinks needs to be CHANGED about gameplay. It's clearly designed to add impetus to your flawed quest for a premature patch. As such, I'm here once again to maintain balance.

I knew you'd understand, thanks.You're quite welcome. As long as you continue this ill-advised patch lobbying, I'll understand. :rolleyes:

Dyehead:

That's why I asked for you to specifically steer clear of this thread, Al.. But your ego won that battle apparently.You can ask me to do anything from... join with you in your attempts to ruin the game, to... wear a large hat, but I'm obviously not going to comply. My presence here is necessary to help foil your misguided attempts to change the game into JO. Besides, I came into this thread with a genuine comment. All the flaming in the world won't stop me making it. Keep trying though, if you like.

dyehead
09-25-2003, 07:03 PM
You must realize that you're not really thwarting anything, as this thread is to bring people's attentions to the problem, I have nowhere DEMANDED that they change anything or PATCH THIS NOW in this thread.

I have made suggestions as to how I think things should be as opposed to how they are, I have pointed out balance issues that I believe to be flawed. Your presence has turned this into more than it was designed to be.

You're saying that you don't think Raven is competent enough to patch something wisely? You keep berating their coding abilities through and through, Al. Continuously pointing out someone's flaws is hardly the way to earn their respect. I'd be surprised if actual Raven employees didn't ignore everything you've posted.

BS87
09-25-2003, 07:13 PM
Now i'm not calling anyone a noob, but i've seen various posters in here that act like the dual sabers and the staff are unholy and godlike, and refer to them beeing based of hte blue stance, or actually beeing able to change stances with them. You need to play with your enemies more, both the staff and dual sabers are stuck in yellow stance.

Also, i dont think there is a limit on the combo's for the staff and duals, because from what i've noticed, there isnt really and combo's. There is the swing you get when you hit w+attack, and the one you get when you hit strafe+w+attack, and 1 or 2 others that happen inbetween those two. Though i'm not sure if this is correct. Hope my thoughts helped ^_^

traj
09-25-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
[B]traj:

How unoriginal, accusing the accuser of the same crime.

Unoriginal, maybe. Absolutely true, yes. You are condescending and patronising sir.

[i]Originally posted by Speedo AL[i]Heh heh, this thread is intended to discuss what Dyehead thinks needs to be CHANGED about gameplay.

Wrong again. It's designed to discuss what Dyehead has NOTICED about gameplay. You took it the extra step, because YOU decided to.

[i]Originally posted by Speedo AL[i] As long as you continue this ill-advised patch lobbying

I didn't hear a patch mentioned until you brought it up ole chap. ;)
We were discussing gameplay.

[i]Originally posted by Speedo AL[i]
All the flaming in the world won't stop me making it. Keep trying though, if you like.

You too snuggles. I don't really understand why it's ok for you to flame but not us. If calling people whiners isn't a flame I don't know what is.

More of your hypocrisy I guess. Maybe your brain is FRAGMENTED. Look it up. Then put your thoughts where the belong, in the appropriate thread, take a hike, and spare us your jibber jabber.

Prime
09-25-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by dyehead
You're saying that you don't think Raven is competent enough to patch something wisely? You keep berating their coding abilities through and through, Al. Continuously pointing out someone's flaws is hardly the way to earn their respect. I'd be surprised if actual Raven employees didn't ignore everything you've posted. Actually, I think Raven hs learned a boatload about patching from JO. From the Dev diaries and comments that I have read, they seemed to realize that JO probably would have been better off if they had only released bug patches instead of gameplay patches (things like the DFA collision detection, etc.). Not that they can't make competent patches, but because it is impossible to please everyone. And often when they actually post somewhere about gameplay, they say that most of the requests can be handled by cvars and things of that sort anyway, and that modding the game is the way to get what you want.

All I'm saying is that sometimes I kind of doubt that there will be a gameplay patch at all. There may be bug patches, but at the very least I think Raven will a lot more hesitant to alter gameplay this time around, especially changes based on demands from one particular group (regardless of how those changes would help said group).

I don't have any facts to say there won't be a patch, just a feeling based on what I have seen...

dyehead
09-25-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by BS87
Also, i dont think there is a limit on the combo's for the staff and duals, because from what i've noticed, there isnt really and combo's. There is the swing you get when you hit w+attack, and the one you get when you hit strafe+w+attack, and 1 or 2 others that happen inbetween those two. Though i'm not sure if this is correct. Hope my thoughts helped ^_^

Thanks for the input--

You can make 4 swings with a single saber.

You can make unlimited swings with a light staff, and I believe the same holds true for the dual sabers (I haven't tested this extensively, someone please help me with this one)

While those stances appear to lack combos, they more than make up for it in pure damage potential.

As I stated previously, the thing that raises my brow the most, is when I hit someone 4x with a heavy slash, and they come at me with one dual saber strike or one light staff twirl (non kata) and kill me in one hit.

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 09:38 PM
Dyehead:

You're saying that you don't think Raven is competent enough to patch something wisely?Hey, you're the only one who's said that. That must mean you believe it. Shame on you for insulting Raven! :D

To be perfectly honest I think Raven is the most qualified entity to decide what gameplay changes to make... It is YOU I consider totally unqualified, Dyehead.

traj:

Unoriginal, maybe. Absolutely true, yes. You are condescending and patronising sir.Yet again, you flame me. Saddening, :( but ultimately ineffectual. ;) The more names you throw around the worse you look.

Wrong again. It's designed to discuss what Dyehead has NOTICED about gameplay.It's designed to discuss what Dyehead wants to change about gameplay. It's designed to add momentum to a stalling call for a premature patch.

You too snuggles. I don't really understand why it's ok for you to flame but not us. If calling people whiners isn't a flame I don't know what is.Is that the best you could come up with? I suppose you couldn't find a quote of me directly calling anyone anything bad... I can find a few quotes of you calling people something bad, though.

take a hike, and spare us your jibber jabber.Nooo, but thanks for the invitation. Maybe next year.

Remember, premature patching is bad for games. We don't want Raven to prematurely patch THIS game.

[div3rse.jello]
09-25-2003, 10:28 PM
Is that the best you could come up with?

asking that question is like asking to be flamed :rolleyes:

g//plaZma
09-25-2003, 10:43 PM
Why is it that Al seems to stop by on every thread that talks about problems in JA and tries to prove everyone wrong by picking apart their posts and correcting spelling errors and miscalculations? You're really just asking to be flamed. gtfo and go play the game instead of spending so much time worrying that Raven will patch the game "prematurely" (oh nos!)

No one is asking for a "premature" patch. Reporting gameplay flaws and dislikes is an essential thing. If no one did that, we won't even get a patch at all. In your opinion, does 3 months have to go by for people to start reporting flaws?

Ikhnaton
09-25-2003, 10:52 PM
wtf is kata?

traj
09-25-2003, 10:54 PM
First of all, I don't care how I look. That would be you.

I tried to find some flames from you. Tough work.

All I could find were 1 "schmuck", a couple of "go boil your extremities", 1 "Trajic", and 25,000 posts where you insult people's intelligence (stupid, idiotic, foolish etc.) and then wink afterwards.

Wait, maybe calling someone stupid IS a flame. It certainly doesn't make them feel good about themselves. You're as guilty as those you chastise for "flames".

I guess in your mind calling someone a "nOOb" is worse than insulting their intelligence time and time again. They both have the same effect though, and they're both flames.

Yours are just more cleverly disguised and therefore more chicken****.

AL, no one is rallying support for a patch in this thread. It's a discussion about gameplay, leave it be.

dyehead
09-25-2003, 10:55 PM
You sound like Lars from Metallica.

Anyone remember?

"PATCHING BAD!!"
"NERFING GOOD!"

Premature patching is bad, ok sure... Maybe it's not as premature as you think it is?

How many HOURS does someone have to play before you'd say that they could make a serious and educated suggestion for a patch?

I can guarantee you that there are a lot of people who have played MP for over 50 hours playtime already. I myself have probably put in a good 24 solid hours of play. I would not play for 20 minutes and make random judgements, I would however read other people's suggestions/questions and then go back in game and test myself.

I guarantee you, Weiner dog has probably played JA more than you. Maybe those with more experience MIGHT POSSIBLY KNOW BETTER?

Premature patching is bad, but who says that the first patch is going to be a repeat of 1.03? I accuse you again of not having any faith in Raven, by your comments.

I think they WILL patch, and that they'll do a good job with it. I think 1.04 worked well for JO, it was mostly balanced.

But all of this is besides the freaking point..

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT PATCHING PER SAY, IT IS TO POINT OUT THINGS ABOUT SABER COMBAT, AND WHAT ODDITIES YOU FIND IN IT. THANKS.

DarkLord_44
09-25-2003, 11:37 PM
OK I support changing maybe not single saber stance but putting back the left leftup saber flick would be nice BUT
the main point is that both STAFF and DUAL SABER have an INDEFINATE number of moves in 1 combo. Thus a person with yellow stance (which has equal damage to staff I believe) can do only 5 hits but the staff can go on forever. Ok we all know the SW physics aren't real but based on what they have made in jk2 and the continuing physics of jk3, people using a saber get tired to an extent. That is the reason why they stop after 3 swings in red, 5 in yellow, and 9 in blue if doing spins. Why else would they have this in here for? So based of this info why should someone hold double the weight(staff and dual are 2 sabers but different forms) have the ability to not get tired and go on forever. Think about it this way. In the game when you use dark rage you end up having a slow down period, this is from exhaustion if you put it into perspective. If you want to call it mental or physical exhaution, you can be my guest. So why does someone who is using saber that require more energy due to the weight of the saber plus the extra motions of weilding( more movement = more energy use) be able to have more indurance than someone with half both those things?
If you are gonna say something like "Hey this is a different game!" Is that really a valid arguement? Here is an example. In SW Ep 4 there was light saber combat. Also in Ep 5 there was light saber combat. Did the idea of saber fighting totally change? No, they both were based off the same idea and were virtual the same. Both were different movies but since it was a SERIES it kept the same Idea. Just like Dark forces is a series, the idea of saber combat has not really changed. IN Dark Forces 2, there were 2 swings. The primary swing is much like a fast stance and the secondary was like a yellow scissors combat. Then in Jk2 to Jk3 and so forth, it evolved but really didn't change. It kept the same basic rules.

The way I think this game should be done is
1. Take all the regular moves such as overhead yellow, slide slice with staff, and everything not a special to ANY extent and balance all the sabers based of just basic moves.
2. Then take a look at the specials and balance them.

You may ask why. There are a lot of duelers who don't like to use specials so if they want to use single saber why should the single saber basic attacks be bad compared to those of a staff of dual saber. I for one don't use specials. A friend of mine Luke Skywalker doesn't use specials except for lunge when someone tries to kill him via ydfa. SmilyKrazy doesn't use specials. The list of people goes on. Therefore create 2 lvls of balance. Do one for basic attack and then another for specials. I don't want to have to spam yellow kata to win.

P.S. I think 1.04 was the best thing to happen to the ja community.

BS87
09-25-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by dyehead
Thanks for the input--

You can make 4 swings with a single saber.

You can make unlimited swings with a light staff, and I believe the same holds true for the dual sabers (I haven't tested this extensively, someone please help me with this one)

While those stances appear to lack combos, they more than make up for it in pure damage potential.

As I stated previously, the thing that raises my brow the most, is when I hit someone 4x with a heavy slash, and they come at me with one dual saber strike or one light staff twirl (non kata) and kill me in one hit.

Hmm, i never really noticed that with the single saber, too me it just seemed like he would twilr and continue swinging. Though i'm probably wrong. Also, i have noticed what you've said about the staff and duals seemingly killing in 1 hit in a glanceing blow...... there seems to be some serious hit detection issues with the new sabers. Single vs single you dont notice, cause raven had JO to deal with single sabers, but the new sabers i guess are still a bit glitchy.

Kurgan
09-25-2003, 11:55 PM
Granted I did this against Jedi Master Level bots (on rotating maps) but I played with the Saberstaff and Single saber (all stances) and I didn't notice any detectable "nerfing" with the single saber.

I owned them just as often, regardless of what weapons or saber types they were using just as often with the single as with the other two types.

Strong Stance does the most damage by far. I think people are too hung up on the "DFA" being "weaker" than JK2 and assuming that that is the only worthwhile move for this stance.

I'll have you know I used a simple strafe running hit and killed TWO enemy Jedi at once with one swipe. How'se that? ; )

Fast stance is the weakest.. it gets knocked aside quite often by more powerful stances, and it does less damage and has less range than the other two. However it can chain a lot more and is faster.

I thinkt he problem with some people is that they think that they must only use one stance exclusively in a saber only context. The Single saber is designed to be versatile.

So if you give yourself all three Stances (Saber Attack Level 3) then you should master them all and switch off according to the situation. If you're bad at red stance, then save yourself some Force Points. But then don't whine if you get beaten because in a situation you could have used it.

At Level 3 Saber Attack and Defense, all three saber types seem well balanced in MP.

The Dual Sabers may seem powerful, but I've often knocked away one blade from a person (and had it done to me). The Saber Shield is perfectly counterable (knock the blades away or push them and it totally throws off the move).

The Saberstaff leaves you wide open during Katas (which are VERY EASY to mis-time to leave you open or fall off a cliff, or totally miss your opponent) and kicks (kicks are slow and often don't know your opponent down, plus they can always roll out of the way). Turning off one blade gives you Medium Stance, but with no Kata and no Yellow DFA.

I think that people are letting their imaginations run away with them and trying to shoe-horn JA into the set pattern they liked from JK2 (whatever version they happened to like).

Again, I think Raven did an excellent job on the game. Except for a few random crashes and some minor model clipping, it seems to be as good or better than JK2 in all areas.

I miss the first person lightsaber and Jedi Master/Holocron game modes, but those will be modded in I'm sure of it. The rest of the stuff can be turned on/tweaked in the console, so it's no big deal.

lllKyNeSlll
09-25-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by dyehead
This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing

Anyone notice that the single saber has nowhere near the destructive power of the dual sabers or the light staff?

Red stance:

The DFA has been rendered practically useless, even with mouse sensitivity INCREDIBLY low, and the cursor DIRECTLY on the enemy, when I land, it usually doesn't hit. In JO, I was a master of the DFA, as were most people, I imagine.. but I particularly had the knack of landing it about 95% of the time. I think in the entire week that I've been playing JA, I have killed people 2 or 3 times, and one was an afk.

-=DyeHead

no hitboxes buddy. flechette misses if u aim for legs many times

dyehead
09-26-2003, 12:15 AM
Thanks for your input Kurgan, it is dually noted, though the overwhelming amount of people that see the same things that I do reinforce my original doubts.

boinga1
09-26-2003, 12:28 AM
Dude, just try a little.


DFA can still kill, you just can't spam it and it isn't a one hit kill. USE THE KATAS, MON! THEY WoRKEE BERY GOODEE! :jarjar:


Seriously, though, they do work very well. dual saber user come slashing like a fool towards you= KATA! DING DING DING!

Look, I really am a mediocre player, yet the other might I got the same KPM rate as the leader, who had a doublesaber I believe, NOT to mention a 10 minute head start. If I can do that well with a single saber, ANYBODY can.

DarkLord_44
09-26-2003, 12:30 AM
No one has anything to say about my post ? How sad :(

dyehead
09-26-2003, 01:09 AM
If you could control the direction of the kata during its motion, I'd be inclined to say that they're not 75% useless.

lllKyNeSlll
09-26-2003, 01:33 AM
oh 1v1 they are almost useless. ffa its good. but i find the best ffa strategy is simply to get 2 sabers, rage, then run around backwards holding attack and hoping you get a backstab.

Prime
09-26-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
If you could control the direction of the kata during its motion, I'd be inclined to say that they're not 75% useless. But you can control the direction yo go with the katas, at least with the single saber (I can't remember about the other ones, although I think you can). I'm talking about the direction the player is going, is this what you are refering to?

Prime
09-26-2003, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by lllKyNeSlll
oh 1v1 they are almost useless. ffa its good. but i find the best ffa strategy is simply to get 2 sabers, rage, then run around backwards holding attack and hoping you get a backstab. Sounds funny, but whatever works for you :D

dyehead
09-26-2003, 01:40 AM
You can move a little bit during the kata, but only during certain parts of it, and you can't aim your saber up or down, or even do a 180 really.. a lot of times the people you're trying to kata just jump over you or something.. being able to aim it through the entire kata would be better imo

skinnypoo
09-26-2003, 01:43 AM
yes single saber:

A) moves too slow compared to dual saber and two saber

B) single saber damage is too low...considering its a two hand on one saber (most damage possible)

C) red stance is now a joke fix it!!! (needs to be stronger, since its slow as hell, WTF!)

D) yellow DFA ...good god...u couldnt hit a broadside of a barn with it... fix it.


raven u idiots.
bah.

dyehead
09-26-2003, 01:53 AM
Well skinnypoo that wasn't what I was looking for, a bit abrasive..

But ok, you think the single saber needs work, thanks for your support.

BS87
09-26-2003, 02:10 AM
Well, i just got done playing a looong night. I've noticed that alot more people are using, or atleast trying the single sabers now. And the other thing i've noticed, is that the single saber kata's freaking own. There is no doubt trying to deny it, or to convince me otherwise. Those kata's simply own, except maybe in 1v1. But i think thats good, since its the single saber's only real strong point.

Prime
09-26-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by BS87
Well, i just got done playing a looong night. I've noticed that alot more people are using, or atleast trying the single sabers now. And the other thing i've noticed, is that the single saber kata's freaking own. There is no doubt trying to deny it, or to convince me otherwise. Those kata's simply own, except maybe in 1v1. But i think thats good, since its the single saber's only real strong point. Plus you get three different katas for the price of one.

FurionStormrage
09-26-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by BS87
Well, i just got done playing a looong night. I've noticed that alot more people are using, or atleast trying the single sabers now. And the other thing i've noticed, is that the single saber kata's freaking own. There is no doubt trying to deny it, or to convince me otherwise. Those kata's simply own, except maybe in 1v1. But i think thats good, since its the single saber's only real strong point.

I'm having fairly decent success using the red single against a dual sabre. There's a huge window of opportunity when the dual sabre wielder is trying to attack. :D (mouse1+mouse2 = dead dual sabre wielder) :wan:

AxVegetA
09-26-2003, 04:55 AM
I think the slow roll was nerfed because people used too much the roll-pull or push. It sux though.
Same as the dfa. But i would have prefered it to be same as powerful as in 1.02 but with a force price.

Well the single katas and dfa (every move) can be stoped with a pull or push, and sometimes saber throw.
I managed to make the JA dfa usefull when doing it againts people in mid air or when trying to kick you while they are on the ground (just look completely down). But its useless against people standing or runing, and that makes sense.

Also saber atacks do a lot more damage with clean meat.
Actually you will never succeed to hurt another player if you hit them near their saber or sabers.
But duals or staff players can do so, cause they hit your saber away with one and with the other they clean hit you.

All this conclusions are from the demo. It may be a chance i am wrong in some ways.

Seems that you all use single sabers. It would be cool to just be a few single saber players.

AxVegetA
09-26-2003, 05:02 AM
About the yellow dfa.
There are two. One is doing it facing nowhere (with out that slash in mid air), and the other is facing the enemy (with that slash in mid air).
Actually the best way to hit with it is to stand on the left of your enemy (your right :p ), and hit him to the face when you raise the saber (not that slah when you are in mid air).

Kurgan
09-26-2003, 06:55 AM
Ax, if it helps, in the full version, the roll seems just as good as it was in JK2 (JK2 MP vs. JA MP).

There are subtle differences between SP (which is all the demo has) and MP.

Like in MP there's no pull-stabs (not as a specific move animation), no flip kicks (that we know of), you can't attack or switch weapons while grabbing a wall. The swings for the single sabers look and feel different. It's harder to lose your saber (easy to lose one saber with the Dual Sabers though). There's no sound effect when you do a cartwheel or grapple somebody (known bugs), etc.

dyehead
09-26-2003, 05:03 PM
I think the JA roll is a bit slower than the JO roll...

Spider AL
09-26-2003, 05:15 PM
Dyehead:

In my experience, the JA roll has a greater pause between rolls than the JO roll, and travels slightly less distance. I think this is a good thing. I used roll and bunny almost exclusively in JO, and I found it a little silly. It was necessary to win, so I used them. But this way roll is more of a special-circumstances tool, which seems to fit better to me.

Premature patching is bad, ok sure... Maybe it's not as premature as you think it is?

How many HOURS does someone have to play before you'd say that they could make a serious and educated suggestion for a patch?This is actually an exceptionally good question, Dyehead. I myself put in countless hours with every new game I like, every week. But until two or three months have passed I don't even consider MYSELF skilled, no matter HOW much I've won. I've been playing MP with JA for what is it, five, six days now? I've not lost a game. REGARDLESS, I don't consider myself skilled enough to make the judgements you're talking about. Does that answer your question?

I guarantee you, Weiner dog has probably played JA more than you. Maybe those with more experience MIGHT POSSIBLY KNOW BETTER?You guarantee me, do you. You know NOTHING about how much I play, or how much time I have to play. Or how much I sleep. Please, sort your attitude out.

All that ASIDE, I have played games where I have started AFTER other people, and become a better player, who understands more about the game than those people who started before me. So I may understand more about JA than wiener. You cannot say. I cannot say. Wiener cannot say.

It's a week after release, Dye. It's too soon to be demanding a patch by ANYONE'S standards. Well, not anyone's. Obviously not yours.

Premature patching is bad, but who says that the first patch is going to be a repeat of 1.03? I accuse you again of not having any faith in Raven, by your comments.

I think they WILL patch, and that they'll do a good job with it. I think 1.04 worked well for JO, it was mostly balanced.You can accuse me of wearing pink trousers if you like. Won't make it true. Except at weekends.

I have faith that Raven will try their best to make a good game. But on past experience, I have NO faith in people like yourself to show restraint when asking for a patch. EVERYTHING you think of goes into such a patch, whether its gameplay fixes, imagined or otherwise, or genuine bugfixes.

I have faith that Raven will listen to the community. Unfortunately.

Now is too soon to be declaring something as an insurmountable barrier to good gameplay. Once again:

Say no to premature patching! Now is too soon!

Kurgan:

I think that people are letting their imaginations run away with them and trying to shoe-horn JA into the set pattern they liked from JK2 (whatever version they happened to like).This is a problem that afflicts many games, most often FPS games though. I mean, UT2K3 suffered from it to a certain extent. I'm not sure why the JK series gets so much of it though, it must be Star-Wars-fan related.

Plazma:

Why is it that Al seems to stop by on every thread that talks about problems in JA and tries to prove everyone wrong by picking apart their posts and correcting spelling errors and miscalculations?Ugh, I haven't picked on people's grammatical errors. If you're going to fling accusations around at least make sure you're accusing someone of a halfway feasible crime.

(Yet another response to the flames of)

traj:

First of all, I don't care how I look. That would be you. To be honest, I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Probably something flamey.

I tried to find some flames from you. Tough work.

All I could find were 1 "schmuck", a couple of "go boil your extremities", 1 "Trajic", and 25,000 posts where you insult people's intelligence (stupid, idiotic, foolish etc.) and then wink afterwards.Yet again you lie and lie. I don't call people stupid. I may call what they SAY stupid, but that's not the same thing and it's hardly a flame. Everyone says stupid things occasionally. Some more than others.

And "schmuck" was a word I quoted from someone else's post. Doesn't count. "trajic" was a retort to a much worse insult. There you go.

Zero flames!

You on the other hand...

Yours are just more cleverly disguised and therefore more chicken****.You swear a lot. It's not hugely helpful to your "case" to swear so much IMO.

Eh? You can't find any flames, so you reason that's because I've "disguised" them in some way? Reaching somewhat, aren't you...

dyehead
09-26-2003, 05:44 PM
By the frequency and length of your posts, you being stapled to your desk, I would assume that you spend more time researching other people's posts to play the game, hence my statement that weiner dog probably has played more than you.

To change the subject,

I've been playing SP a lot, and I've noticed that pull stab is about the most abuseable move in the game. Sofreakingeasy.

Is pull stab in MP? I haven't tried it, my work schedule has been really abusive this week, no time to really get into a good MP game.

If pull-stab works in MP, then that might help kill a flag carrier, but I have yet to see it work in MP..

Anyway, so far we have the majority of people saying that the single saber is not as powerful as the dual sabers or light staff.

People's main argument is that they are good with the single saber and they can still kill people, that's great so can I... but it doesn't change the facts of what I'm saying... 4 hits with heavy red kills, while 1 hit from a light staff or dual sabers kills... What happens when someone becomes as proficient with dual sabers/light staff as someone is with the single saber? It is my opinion that at that point, the light staff/dual sabers will prove to be out of balance, as skill in hitting will not be the issue, but damage/blocking will be.

Red DFA is incredibly finicky, the hit/damage range seems to be very minute.. rarely hits and does little damage when it does..

Yellow DFA is useless, it doesn't really hit..

Blue lunge is the same as JO.

Anyone disagree that this is what has been said and agreed on by most?

FurionStormrage
09-26-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by dyehead

Yellow DFA is useless, it doesn't really hit..


The Yellow Attack Flip (aka Yellow DFA) is incredibly easy to activate but the timing is completely different than it is in JO. Since I've been mostly playing 1.02 JO I must say that yellow DFA is closer to 1.02 than the other ones.

You CAN connect with it but it's a lot harder to control.

g//plaZma
09-26-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL

Plazma:

Ugh, I haven't picked on people's grammatical errors. If you're going to fling accusations around at least make sure you're accusing someone of a halfway feasible crime.


sar·casm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (särkzm)
n.
1 A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2 A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule

babywax
09-26-2003, 07:22 PM
Spider Al, this thread is quite obviously ABOUT patching, that does not mean it is going to happen right away. It is best to start compiling oppinions so that when they're READY to start working on a patch, they know what exactly what they(raven) want to do.

I kill tons in MP with single saber, but it's really hard. I know that sounds odd, but for some reason it just seems hard. One of the main problems is that every time I slice through sometime, it's not a gauranteed hit because a lot of times it seems to not hit (some sort of bug or lag I guess). Maybe I'm just unlucky I don't know.
I also notice that the staff jump-butterfly-whatever move is highly abused, as certain parts of it seem to kill instantly no matter what. I hope that's a bug, but otherwise I think the staff is pretty balanced, aside from the problems with it's jump-spin-special-thing.

As for dual sabers, there is only one REAL big problem I see, and that is that they seem to hurt too much on the side and from behind. When people twirl with blue stance on single saber, they don't really damage behind them, but with dual sabers when they twirl they do equal damage to the front. This may make more sense, but it really hurts gameplay. Half the time in FFA's I see people twirling around and not caring which direction they're turned because they seem to do equal damage in all directions.

Overall, my oppinion is this:
Dual Sabers: Maybe tone down the twirl (crouch+attack) a little, take off backwards damage and nerf side damage but keep forward damage the same. Nerf their defense some too, it stands to reason that someone holding a sword with one hand won't be exerting more force than a person with two hands on the hilt. I like the fact that they can chain moves indefinately(I think), but I think the chain should be easily breakable by attacks.

Light-staff: Overall it's pretty good I think, but the jump-twirl-kicking move seems a little buggy, half the time people do it I die in 1 hit no matter how much life I have. Other than that I like it, maybe slow down the attacks a little, it is harder to maneuver a staff than a sword.

Single Saber: I like it, maybe up damage a LITTLE on red, a little bit more than red on yellow, and I haven't done much with blue. I like all the specials and katas for single, and damage seems well balanced too.

I don't like how hard it seems to block now, I don't want extreme blocking like JK2, but now against a lightstaff it seems like there is no blocking at all, atleast with single...

dyehead
09-26-2003, 10:32 PM
Great post, BabyWax, thank you for the information, again it's what I'm looking for.

flabajaba2213
09-26-2003, 11:07 PM
I have used the single saber only a few times in MP. however, I believe that I have a few suggestions for everyone. Try to whittle down the person with yellow, then switch to red, you know, like Rocky in Rocky 2, he went from righty to southpaw in the last round (I love 80's movies....). Also, if you REALLY want ot annoy a dual saberist who says that they are invincible, just use blue stance and speed 3. =) Speed makes it easier to avoid the baldes, and blue stance lets you attack really fast. It is very annoying to have someone attacking with blue, doing maybe 10 - 20 damage. it is like a fly just nipping at your neck, and you just can't swat it...

Anyway...red does need to be upped a bit. I have only played the JO demo, but I can tell a bit of difference in power as compared to JA. Anyway, I am having fun, so that is all that I really care about.

later

Kurgan
09-26-2003, 11:20 PM
I haven't found it "hard" to get kills with any of the sabers, they all seem about equal.

That's the part I can't understand with people. Are we talking about duels with nerfed (saberdamagescale 1, sabertracesaberfirst 1) type stuff?

Cause when I hit people with sabers, they die in one or two hits, unless they keep grabbing shield boosts or have Protect on (and even then, that only saves them from one or two more hits).

Lag does play a big role, but everybody knows that.


Do NOT compare the JA demo or the JO demo to JA MP. They are VERY different in many respects. The demos are both SP only.

JA SP =/ JA MP
JO SP =/ JA MP
JO MP =/ JA MP

(that's "not equal" in case you're wondering)


I've been playing SP a lot, and I've noticed that pull stab is about the most abuseable move in the game. Sofreakingeasy.

Is pull stab in MP? I haven't tried it, my work schedule has been really abusive this week, no time to really get into a good MP game.

If pull-stab works in MP, then that might help kill a flag carrier, but I have yet to see it work in MP..

Pull stab is NOT in MP (if it is, it's hidden behind cvars we haven't discovered yet). If it were, I guarentee you right now there would be threads with people whining about how it's too powerful or needs to be removed from the game. ; p

traj
09-26-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL

traj:

To be honest, I don't know what this is supposed to mean.[should be pretty obvious to a super genius like yourself /roll] Probably something flamey.[good guess]

Yet again you lie and lie.[Thats a lie] I don't call people stupid. I may call what they SAY stupid,[same thing] but that's not the same thing and it's hardly a flame[its both]. Everyone says stupid things occasionally. Some more than others.[some even lie]

And "schmuck" was a word I quoted from someone else's post.[Actually you said it BACK to them] Doesn't count.[it does] "trajic" was a retort to a much worse insult.[False] There you go.[agreed]

Zero flames![in your eyes only]

You on the other hand...

You swear a lot.[true, it's my constitutional right] It's not hugely helpful to your "case" to swear so much IMO.[no one cares]

Eh? You can't find any flames,[i did] so you reason that's because I've "disguised" them in some way?[you did] Reaching somewhat, aren't you...[that would be you]

Cute speech. I should have know you were gonna use the "he started it" defense. I did know actually. By the way, you started the trajic thing. :P It's true. You started it. :P

And if you really think you don't insult people's intelligence every chance you get (which is the same as calling them stupid by the way) then you my friend are blind.

As you like to say, ignorance is bliss. You do nothing wrong, it's always everyone else.[/sarcasm] Anyways, I don't really want to talk to you anymore so please don't respond.

[Unnecessary insults removed by moderator. I hope this means you're "done" now?]

Have a good life AL. :D toodles xoxox

Kurgan
09-26-2003, 11:28 PM
Sigh... this is a festive occasion, let's not ruin it by arguing who flamed who...

[div3rse.jello]
09-26-2003, 11:31 PM
heh kurgan knows who flamed who..

no need to argue

traj
09-26-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Sigh... this is a festive occasion, let's not ruin it by arguing who flamed who...

Awwww Kurgan, you took out my closing line. That was my favorite part. It really tied it all together nicely.

Master William
09-26-2003, 11:51 PM
I use single saber, and I know every technique to kick the ass out of the dualsaber- and staffists.

I win 8/10 duels against them with single saber.
Simple as that, I don't need any patch.

After all, patches are made to fix bugs, not gameplay...

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 12:00 AM
I agree with master william.
I would prefer the next patch only fixes bugs and some minor changes in gameplay.

lilJedi
09-27-2003, 12:40 AM
The Dual Sabers may seem powerful, but I've often knocked away one blade from a person (and had it done to me). The Saber Shield is perfectly counterable (knock the blades away or push them and it totally throws off the move

also dye you say you seem to get killed in one off hits. if you'll notice, both in JO and JA there are certain times when the two sabers connect that yours or the other fellows its thrown aside,,, or way off into the air from the force of the blow....and this leaves you open, imagine a guy with two sabers, the first making you parry in what i described above and then while open the second one comes in a split second later. i believe this could be responsible for your premature dying as I too have noticed this.

on a last note, i find it much easier to fight multiple of the most elite jedi in the game at once with them using staff or dual sabers, then i do when they use single sabers.

i also find it easy to just saber throw a staff saber wielder to death....they dont find it so easy to block when throwing at their feet.

Spider AL
09-27-2003, 02:14 AM
Babywax:

Spider Al, this thread is quite obviously ABOUT patching, that does not mean it is going to happen right away. It is best to start compiling oppinions so that when they're READY to start working on a patch, they know what exactly what they(raven) want to do.It's a pertinent point you make Baby, with one fatal flaw: The reason I don't want a premature patch is that suggestions made in the first week of the game's release will be at best, without serious foundation. So regardless of when they're listened to, such suggestions could be damaging. Suppose Raven reads the thread demanding that all gametypes have kick ported in three months from now? It'd still be as damaging then if they listened to it.

Since the moderators aren't going to censor you, I'm here to make sure Raven hears the other side of the story no matter when they read this premature gameplay analysis thread.

Raven, we say no to premature patching!

Dye:

By the frequency and length of your posts, you being stapled to your desk, I would assume "Assume makes an ass of u and me". I always found that one funny, my idiot teachers used to spout it... ugh. Seriously however, don't make assumptions that result in underestimating people. The fact that I'm stapled to my desk means I have a lot of time to practice JA.

As to your sabre problems, I really haven't noticed too many of these one-hit-kills you're talking about. Not enough to call it common, or a trend... I have always avoided most of my opponents strikes though.

traj:

I should have know you were gonna use the "he started it" defense. I did know actually. By the way, you started the trajic thing. :P It's true. You started it. :PThe posts in which you started it are archived and available to all. You have flamed and insulted me. I have not retorted in kind. QED.

And if you really think you don't insult people's intelligence every chance you get (which is the same as calling them stupid by the way) then you my friend are blind.I'm genuinely sorry if you feel as you the intelligence of you and your friends is in some way insulted by my systematic dismantling of your arguments. But that's hardly my responsibility.

Anyways, I don't really want to talk to you anymore so please don't respond.Leaving so soon? As long as someone is directing posts AT me, they can expect a response.

For once we agree though, I wish Kurgan hadn't taken out that last, presumably particularly insulting line of your post. It would have finalised the contract between us to give me the moral high ground.

g//plaZma
09-27-2003, 02:31 AM
Spider, I understand your views of premature patching but without these flaws reported early, there will be no way of further testing if these are indeed serious.

Let them post whatever they really want. (even if they think that all the player models should be wearing pink socks, which would be dismissed without thought) If these gameplay issues that are reported prove to be false or minor, I doubt they will get patched.

Rad Blackrose
09-27-2003, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Master William
After all, patches are made to fix bugs, not gameplay...

Need I throw in the Blizzard arguement?

And yes, since I do consider their shoddy detection system a bug, I think a patch should be released at least addressing THAT. While all three sabers experience the problem, it is the single saber that is hurt the most by it.

EDIt: Kurgan, I already forsee what you are going to say, and no, I don't see the use of cvars making much of a difference either.

Sam Fisher
09-27-2003, 03:04 AM
I've been playing JA MP with a single saber since I got it, and have kicked arse with it. The trick is to know your saber. That's it. And the Katas are very useful only if you know how to use them. I dunno why people are complaining about saber fighting being harder in JA than in JO :confused:

Weird.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by SamFisher
I dunno why people are complaining about saber fighting being harder in JA than in JO :confused:

Weird.

I do know, they were butt****ed.

Deastin
09-27-2003, 06:46 AM
Okay, my few cents here.


1) Dual Sabres is really hard to control. Drainspamming newbies might be a problem....except you can avoid that problem with Absorb (the 2nd best ability in SP) quite easily...once the newbie wastes his force power on drain / spec moves. Kill him.

2) Sabrestaff should have less offense, and a better defense. As it stands, it's extremely easy to control, does excellent damage, and can turn into a single sabre when necesarry. The defense on this thing is really good too.

3) DFA is the single most-spammed move in the history of JO / JA. Those that complain that DFA doesn't work anymore should simply find a different way to kill things. Being restricted to one move to kill people makes you predictable and easy to kill...especially now that you can MOVE out of the way of a DFA now (roll forward and attack rear sounds nice to me).

4) People seem to forget that Dual Sabres and Sabrestaff can also do cartwheels. This move isn't just restricted to singlesabres.

the weiner dog!
09-27-2003, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Deastin
Okay, my few cents here.


1) Dual Sabres is really hard to control. Drainspamming newbies might be a problem....except you can avoid that problem with Absorb (the 2nd best ability in SP) quite easily...once the newbie wastes his force power on drain / spec moves. Kill him.

2) Sabrestaff should have less offense, and a better defense. As it stands, it's extremely easy to control, does excellent damage, and can turn into a single sabre when necesarry. The defense on this thing is really good too.

3) DFA is the single most-spammed move in the history of JO / JA. Those that complain that DFA doesn't work anymore should simply find a different way to kill things. Being restricted to one move to kill people makes you predictable and easy to kill...especially now that you can MOVE out of the way of a DFA now (roll forward and attack rear sounds nice to me).

4) People seem to forget that Dual Sabres and Sabrestaff can also do cartwheels. This move isn't just restricted to singlesabres.


1-newbie is the key word. We are not talking about newbie’s, we are talking about players like ourselves who sit there and wait for absorb to turn off *then drain. Drain is far more potent than absorb and self heal, just as much if not more now than it was in the last game.


2-it turns into medium stance, useless in full force dueling. Light stance has the lunge and heavy has the stronger swings, but in an environment with drain medium stance is totally and utterly useless. Same deal in outcast, same deal now.

3-ok you tell me, what is the key to the puzzle I'm missing?
Kata's (any style or stance) don't compete with drain in full force dueling.
Roll + stab does not.
The lunge, yellow dfa do not.

What is there for me find?
Name it please, because I seriously am at a loss.



4-umm cartwheel? whoop dee friggen doo. I can meditate/emote now too. Not seeing how that is going to win me matches...

Deastin
09-27-2003, 08:31 AM
Meh, I posted that before I went on a server....I wish to change my view :P

After going on a no force, high regen server...I have formed this conclusion:

Dual Sabre Katas are spammed constanly....granted they are EXTREMELY easy to avoid, but it is kind of irritating.

I've noticed that Sabrestaff Katas aren't spammed that much....due to the fact they are pretty...well...inaccurate. Anyone smart enough to move out of the way does....and anyone that isn't...well....dies.

Cartwheels aren't spammed at all...yet. Only the people that really know what they're doing with sabrestaff use them...which doesn't really surprise me. They're pretty much useless with every other sabre configuration.

I'm gonna try switching back to my Light stance.... :)

the weiner dog!
09-27-2003, 08:47 AM
:)

The Kata has it's use in a FFA where you have 16 guys flailing around randomly, but in 1v1 it's about as useful as the bow emotes.

Too risky (you are pretty much s.o.l if he side steps it, which most people do), too much of a cost (force pool) and simply not enough damage is caused even if it does land (it can be drained right back in 2 seconds).

In CTF it's useless because it (the Kata) locks you in place and when trying to hit a moving target that is flying by at 90 miles per hour (level 3 speed) having your feet stuck to the ground and not being able to turn your mouse to aim in his constantly changing direction makes it pretty pointless.

What you experienced just now is like what happened on fast regen rate servers in Jedi Outcast when lightning was enabled.

You have a dozen retards just running around holding down the lightning key and getting kills because of the insanely fast regen rate.

It should also be noted that people like the Kata/lightning noobs are not even remotely close to the level of skill that the people who are petitioning for kicks to be returned, possess.

So whatever your position on kicks may be, please do not think that we play as noobish as the fools on FFA pubs.

I mention this because people like to say "well I have no problem killing people, you just need to learn the new moves".

They honestly believe they know what they are talking about because they are only playing noobs, not people like us who know how to stay alive and draw matches out.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 08:51 AM
(Off Topic)

This monday ill get JA :D <------------ HAPPY

Mephisto
09-27-2003, 10:15 AM
I've been playing JO extensively since it came out but quit a few months ago as it got pretty boring. I can say that I am better then the average player with the saber. I have fought people who were better and believe me, you will know one when you meet one as compared to those who win with luck, seriously.

I've been playing JA since 2 days after it was released and I'm still playing it for pretty long hours. I must say that it has been a great experience. MP has changed quite a bit I must admit and strategies have changed quite a bit. Yes, I have learnt to adapt and I'm not one of those this-isn't-like-JO peeps.

I have fought in NF with dual, staff and single. From what I have noticed, the dual and staff sabers do more damage as compared to even the red stance of the single saber. IMHO, some parts of the game need tweaking. Lightning and kick bugs to start with. Blue Lunge is has been more damage since JO and also IMO, is overpowered. Why? I have dueled a guy, lunged him when he had 100/25 health and he died instantly. Dual and staff sabers do a whole lot of damage.

I am not complaining, merely giving my 2 cents. I have started to play defensive ever since, evading and rolling more than ever. Yellow stance is difficult to aim and hit w/o real skill when you are fighting dual/staff users, from what i notice. Red swings, if executed properly can slice through dual/staff user's defences half the time(which explain the reason I'm using them so extensively.)

Saber blocking system has been changed, I'm not sure for the better or worse. I have tried and tested it with a friend of mine. I was standing in front of him with single saber on, he stands in front of me also with the single saber. He does an overhead cut with blue, yellow and red stances. 3/4 of the time i got hit and took damage, though not much. In JO, if anybody remembers, the defender would block with his saber and falling-backwards-and-recover animation would occur most of the time. I'm not asking for a patch, just telling everyone what I have found out.

Yes, some might say I'm a noobie to this forums, some might say i'm a whiner, some might tell me to shutup, adapt, play the game more before you post. Whatever it is, all i'm doing is just giving my 2 cents. If anybody has any opposing views, I would be glad to hear them. :)
Also, please forgive my bad english. :D

babywax
09-27-2003, 11:40 AM
Spider Al:
It's a pertinent point you make Baby, with one fatal flaw: The reason I don't want a premature patch is that suggestions made in the first week of the game's release will be at best, without serious foundation. So regardless of when they're listened to, such suggestions could be damaging. Suppose Raven reads the thread demanding that all gametypes have kick ported in three months from now? It'd still be as damaging then if they listened to it.
I think we have different oppinions of this thread, but frankly I hope raven doesn't read it, atleast not yet. I think it needs to go on and we need to use it to evolve our ideas, and THEN present it to Raven, you apparently think they will take these ideas as they are (which they might, I hope they don't, they haven't been thought out).

I loved kicking in JO, but it was very annoying to find someone who only used kick, so I think it's for the better to have it taken out.

Most of my complaints with this game are fairly small and about bugs, the reason I don't like the staff right click+left click is because it kills in like one hit in certain parts of the move. When I avoid moves, I usually like to go in to attack, taking a hit or two but dealing more damage than I take. My problem is that when I take that one hit, from a saber that is moving very fast, I die every time. Easily avoidable, but I would still like it changed (hopefully some agree with me).

I would like blocking toned up to about 50/50 chance, 25/75 just seems a little low to me. I really don't like having someone throw their saber at me and it hits more often than not even when I'm looking RIGHT at it and ready to block. Right now, the saber defense force power is a little on the weak side.

I have a few balance issues with dual sabers, but nothing REAL large, it's a lot of fun to be one of the minority using single saber (I really don't see many people using it, but that's probably because I favor FFAs).
Other than that I love this game.

Spider AL
09-27-2003, 02:18 PM
Spider, I understand your views of premature patching but without these flaws reported early, there will be no way of further testing if these are indeed serious.I empathise with your desire to get what you see as "flaws" fixed, Plazma. I do. And in a minimum of three months time, you'll see me on here complaining about imbalance with the best of them. Now is NOT the time though. The "flaws" will still be there in a few months, and me, you and the others will be able to see them for what they are more easily by that point. THEN we can discuss possible improvements.

Let them post whatever they really want. (even if they think that all the player models should be wearing pink socks, which would be dismissed without thought) If these gameplay issues that are reported prove to be false or minor, I doubt they will get patched.Oh I hope you're right. I really do. But it doesn't usually work that way... with a big enough outcry, most game companies fold and release a pandering premature patch. Hopefully Raven's learned from its nasty 1.03 experience, and won't do any such thing.

But then again Plazma, that's why I'm here. I'm here to make sure Raven hears this very important line of text, to counter all the calls for an immediate patch: No premature patching, Raven. Remember 1.03.

:D

I think we have different oppinions of this thread, but frankly I hope raven doesn't read it, atleast not yet. I think it needs to go on and we need to use it to evolve our ideas, and THEN present it to Raven, you apparently think they will take these ideas as they are (which they might, I hope they don't, they haven't been thought out).Well Babywax, apart from the fact that I'm genuinely concerned that Raven MIGHT listen to all these demands for a premature patch (they did last time, they've hopefully learned not to listen to such whining but you never know) it seems as if our opinion isn't so different after all. We both hope that Raven don't read this thread at this time.

Yes, some might say I'm a noobie to this forums, some might say i'm a whiner, some might tell me to shutup, adapt, play the game more before you post. Whatever it is, all i'm doing is just giving my 2 cents. If anybody has any opposing views, I would be glad to hear them.Mephisto, many people here who share your opinions could learn from that attitude. Take heed, wiener.

They honestly believe they know what they are talking about because they are only playing noobs, not people like us who know how to stay alive and draw matches out.Wiener, can you make ANY assertions in your posts without resorting to claims that: "I AM BETTAR THAN JOO AH AHAH!!!1"? You're a JA newbie as much as anyone. Remember that. Maybe YOU just haven't been playing the right people, people who are adapting to the game as it is.

Deastin
09-27-2003, 05:31 PM
I only minded kicks when it was impossible to get up from them to dodge a DFA. Now that all you have to do is roll out of the way, I won't mind at all.

dyehead
09-27-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL Mephisto, many people here who share your opinions could learn from that attitude. Take heed, wiener.
[/B]

Mephisto said he can have his own opinions that he wants others to see, so...

We want Raven to see our opinions too.

90% of the people are screaming for a patch, I think the 10% minority will be overruled.

babywax
09-27-2003, 07:14 PM
If they release a patch now, it would be best for them to fix only hit detection, it seems SO off to me, I don't know why but like 1/6th of my attacks miss, and that's too many in my opinion.

Spider AL
09-27-2003, 09:13 PM
Mephisto said he can have his own opinions that he wants others to see, so... Mephisto's attitude in that post was superior because he makes it clear that he respects the opinions of those who disagree with him.

Others have no such respect. "stfu guns noob", "we r leet ctf0rz stfu", "u r smug and arrogant 4 disagreeing with us" etcetera. Many could learn.

We want Raven to see our opinions too.And why is that? Do you want to imbalance and/or damage the game? That's what you're risking with these opinions formed barely a week after the game's release.

90% of the people are screaming for a patch, I think the 10% minority will be overruled.Do you now. Ninety percent of "the people" screamed for 1.03. Then after it was foisted upon the unsuspecting player populace, people like me turned up complaining what a travesty 1.03 was, and WE were in the majority. Do you really, honestly think that ninety percent of JA players want a premature patch? Just because your NG CTF friends have all turned up WITH members of their clans to spout this point of view, that doesn't make you a majority. Actually throughout these threads some of you have been adamant that you're a "skilled minority" of sorts, uniquely endowed with the right to decide on gameplay changes. Heh heh.

Regardless, I'm not going to wait until after a useless, premature patch is released to point out the fatal mistakes you're making. And hopefully, Raven will have learned not to listen to people like yourself, after 1.03. Fingers crossed. ;)

We say no premature patch, Raven!

Glad to see you're starting to admit your intentions in this thread though...

Kettch
09-27-2003, 11:32 PM
In JA SP you could chain infinite attacks with medium and strong stance (single saber) by pressing attack at the end of every swing (when timed accurately). With this method you gain much more control over what you doing and gives the single saber another edge to compete against the other saber types. It gives you an opportunity to react to the opponent instead of planning your attacks (what set of the 5 chained attacks you want to do next).
Also, the damage for fast and medium stance should be slightly higher.

The recovery animations (the anims at the end of every swing) in SP are much more fluid than in MP.

I'd like to see these aspects implemented in MP.

dyehead
09-27-2003, 11:32 PM
Nono Raven..

Spider Al says no to premature patching! The rest of us say PATCH AWAY!

what is this 'we' bullcrap?

Mephisto
09-28-2003, 12:32 AM
It is through constructive criticism that Raven is able to know what needs to be tweaked or fix correct? From what I see here, most of them have given their opinion about saber issues but none of them mention patching here.

By saying opposing opinions, I meant if anyone had different ideas about what I have noticed about the new system. Yup and I forgot to mention more overpowered stuff although its not really related here. Roll stab can kill in one hit, if it doesn't it does a whole lot of damage. Sure its difficult to aim but should any move kill instantly with 100/100? Yes, it takes 25 force but with proper management a guy could be spamming stab the entire duel. Counters are possible if the guy misses way off and he's got his side towards you. Other then that, his saber would be pointing at you. Ydfa countering is not possible as it rarely ever hits and the damage is simply...low:p

And about chaining,
Single saber
Blue Stance -> Infinite(from manual if i remember correctly)/9(from what I have noticed)
Yellow -> 5
Red -> 3
Staff-> Infinite
Dual -> Infinite

If blue stance was infinite, Its range and power is nothing compared to the staff and dual sabers. From my experience, even playing defensive isn't gonna win all the time. Due to the different blocking system, a guy with staff/dual could be constantly chaining, attacking you from your side while you use a red swing(strongest and most able to hit through his defences) So while you're moving backwards or even rolling when you have finished your slash, he can run faster towards you while slashing all the way. See my point?

I'm not saying 100% of the time this happens but when you meet someone skilled or constantly chains like this, you're not gonna stand much of a chance unless you're lucky or if the guy screws up somewhere.

I think there are valid points made in this thread and I do hope that more people will contribute here and post what they have noticed.

Cheers. :D

BloodRiot
09-28-2003, 12:32 AM
I've been playing for over 2 straight hours on a server that had no time limit and probably a score limit of 500. I used single saber all the way and If I may say so... I didn't care wether my opponents had single sabers, dual sabers or saberstaffs... in my experience... they all die the same to me.

Yellow single saber stance for fighting and the other 2 for specific uses... did wonder for me and all tricks proved useful in some situations and useless in others.

Do you guyz even try out the new cool stuff and how to use it or just assumed what worked in JO was gonna work the same in JA???

Mephisto
09-28-2003, 12:36 AM
I'm talking about NF, 1v1 duels in my previous post. In FFA, the single saber stands as much chance as the other sabers. Why? Most people have not learnt to handle the new saber styles well and use the new moves e.g katas, butterfly atk, twirling saber thingie. Those are easy to counter in FFA.

BloodRiot
09-28-2003, 12:45 AM
Well Mephisto.. I wasn't talking about your post specifically.. I was reffering to the whole thread in general.

But I gotta say that in the Duel challenges I plaied in that same FFA I battles dual sabers as well as staffs and singles... i bought the farm on some and add a notch on my saber in another... you know those duels disable force dont you? well to be honest.. my opinion stands as is. I have also played on duel servers... to be honest ever sicne this thread started I started playing single saber like no-ones business... If I thought you were right... I would say so. But Im afraid i cannot... but ironically i thank you... I found large ammounts of fun attached to the single saber... to be honest... it's my favorite now...go figure.

FurionStormrage
09-28-2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
Mephisto said he can have his own opinions that he wants others to see, so...

We want Raven to see our opinions too.

90% of the people are screaming for a patch, I think the 10% minority will be overruled.

I've been avoiding this thread (as far as posting is concerned) lest I be accused of flamebaiting. But I cannot let this statement pass.

First of all, I'd like to commend you for wanting to get a consensus for what possibly needs fixing. This is a great first step.

Second, I'd like to take issue with the 90% people want a patch; therefore patch! Considering that the length of time that ANYONE has had this game is less than two weeks, NO ONE has had time to do enough regression analysis to have any proof that there are huge gameplay issues enough to require a patch. I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence suggesting that parts of the game are broken. However, most of the people spouting off anecdotal evidence are also posting utter rubbish (including the so-called 133+ players) which is enough of a counterpoint to the post to almost (or completely) invalidate the post.

Dyehead, I would like to see this thread continue on a quest to get a consensus as to what people think may need fixing from a gameplay balance standpoint. However, I would agree with Spider Al (I know you have an issue with him/her but s/he's right on this point) that any request for a PATCH should be delayed until we all get said consensus correct.

That's my 0.02 USD for the moment. :D

archer9234
09-28-2003, 12:53 PM
i see it this way...raven makes a patch to fix the anoying crash bugs and slow downs. they do not answer the ppl who want kick,no force cost, or moving while using the special moves. ppl like Hex will make x-mod 2 and JA will be fragmented no matter what. The ppl who want kick and or other things put back the way JK 2 had it, might as well stop complaing cause ppl like al (after reading 12 pages of post about kick) will not stop complaing that toggling kick is very bad. Just be patient and wait for x-mod2 and will run our servers the way we want and the ppl like al run there servers the way they want. BTW: al if u get anoyed at this i dont care go ahead your not getting me mad of this. i will not respond to you. to me your just some guy out of 4 billion online players.

Spider AL
09-28-2003, 04:36 PM
what is this 'we' bullcrap?Do be more of an adult. It's been proven time and time again that even though most people with my point of view haven't posted on these forums since making Raven fix the problems people like you created in 1.03, we exist. Your constant claims that you're in a total majority are as immature as your claims that I'm the only one who disagrees with the selfish desire that the game be instantly changed to match JO.

We say no to premature patching! No patching barely a week after release, Raven!

FurionStormrage
09-28-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
We say no to premature patching! No patching barely a week after release, Raven!

It's "we" because there are more than one of us. By definition, "we" means more than one. :rolleyes:

Emon
09-28-2003, 04:46 PM
I must agree with Spider AL. Premature patches are bad. They should listen to the general public, and then playtest it themselves and use their own judgement, because quite frankly, anyone at Raven is far more competant than half the people I find on here.

Well, actually, they could patch technical issues now, such as the problems with dynamic glow on ATI cards. But gameplay prematurely is bad.

archer9234
09-28-2003, 05:25 PM
would it matter if we had waited a week or 2 months. at any point you ppl who hated kick would still yell at use. becuase in your eyes kick is a sin in JK II and JA. i wonder how ppl would of been if things were reversed. if kick was in JA you ppl that hated it would of probaly demanded it removed. Also are you forgeting there is 2 new ways of getting up by a knock down 1. rolling left or right 2. kicking up or back. and the default sprint back up fast. those count as counter attacks for kick. hmm when i played 1.03 for jk2 the only thing i saw unbalanced was the blue stance pivit one kill thing...but that was when i was a dueler and i really hated that. i didnt find the gun dmg bad or saber dmg. :deathstar i hope in some way we will be able to compromise over this issue. because this is just causing ppl to get angery and very pissed off.

FurionStormrage
09-28-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by archer9234
would it matter if we had waited a week or 2 months. at any point you ppl who hated kick would still yell at use. becuase in your eyes kick is a sin in JK II and JA.

If you'd read the majority of posts that Spider Al, others, and I have been writing, you'd note that none of us has an issue with kick or the lack thereof in the game.

The issue is, and has always been, don't patch prematurely! If Raven listens to the kick-whores, then they're going to ALSO listen to the sabre-whores, and the gun-whores, etc. No one group should be given preferential treatment.

dyehead
09-28-2003, 06:09 PM
This thread has nothing to do with kick, it was a topic regarding saber damage, and what we'd like looked into when they are planning their patch.

There NEEDS to be a patch to fix the server issues (not showing up in master list) So I'm sure that they'll throw in some other stuff with that patch, so we need to get the information out about what we see wrong with game play as fast as we can.

I played a bunch of NF duels yesterday, and I noticed this:

When I swing my saber against the dual sabers or light staff, if they do a quick swing while I'm in the middle of mine, they totally deflect my blow.
I did an overhead red slash (not dfa) while someone was going into a roll, he did not hit me with it, but my saber just bounced and went back to default position, my slash incomplete and doing no damage. This happens a lot with different types of slashes, but I only have this problem (non-roll I mean) with the dual sabers and the light staff. In watching the duels I saw yesterday, the servers cycled through about 25 people, and 3 out of those 25 used single sabers.

Novelty? Or did the coders of the dual sabers and light staff consider them their *babies* and make them a little more powerful...

I design areas and items for an online role-playing game. Before I implememnt my work, I have to check to see if it's balanced with the rest of the game. My items can't be too powerful, or they are denied. If I make something that's better than what's currently there, then everyone is going to want to use it, and there will be complaints from the people that liked the previous item, hence, I can only make things up to and equal to what is currently in existance. I do not feel that all of the sabers are equal, or balanced.

That is/was the point of this thread, to point out to Raven the flaws that we see in saber combat with single sabers.

Spider Al and a couple others say NO to premature patching! The other 20 people who've posted problems re: saber damage in this thread say please incorporate saber fixes with your server patch!

archer9234
09-28-2003, 06:24 PM
oh well im not going to post about this anymore.

Spider AL
09-28-2003, 08:40 PM
There NEEDS to be a patch to fix the server issues (not showing up in master list) So I'm sure that they'll throw in some other stuff with that patch, so we need to get the information out about what we see wrong with game play as fast as we can.Don't say such foolish things. It's less than a week from release, you cannot POSSIBLY claim to know so much about JA that you have a license to tell Raven and everyone else who will ever play the game how you think the gameplay should evolve. Stow the arrogance, fish out the common sense. The things you think are irrepairable gameplay flaws today will fade into obscurity when the REALLY powerful moves become common online in about two months time.

Three months after JO was released, we were inventing and discovering new sabre moves and tactics that made all earlier moves OBSOLETE! You are immensely misguided if you consider yourself omniscient in terms of JA, or that your roleplaying game experience makes you qualified to alter the natural evolutionary process of JA.

We, the people who are opposed to premature patching who have posted in this thread AND all the others, say to Raven: Wait a good long time before altering the gameplay to pander to self-interested parties!

boinga1
09-28-2003, 09:18 PM
[puts on flame-retardant suit]


Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.

AxVegetA
09-28-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by boinga1
[puts on flame-retardant suit]


Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.

I agree.

cheeto101
09-28-2003, 09:46 PM
[Puts on Preachers Outfit]

AMMMEEENNN Brother Al, Preach it, Preach it good Brotha.

Honestly, i seriously enjoy JA gameplay right now. The only quibble i have is the stupid force penatly for stabbing, lunging and dfa ing. (i also think they need to fix the yellow jump slash, sooo hard to hit people) I dont see much sense in those, but ah well, i deal with it and i get over it, its still a friggin awesome game.

FK | unnamed
09-28-2003, 10:21 PM
If it were an entirely new game, and not one built off of Jedi Outcast I would agree.

But this is not an entirely new game.

Disagree?

Let's look at the facts:

Force power changes between Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy:

-No powers added.

-No powers removed.

-Only two changes were made to the existing powers.

*A line of sight restriction on grip was made.

*The rage + speed bonus was removed.


Sabers:

-Single saber stance is a direct clone of the Jedi Outcast saber system.

-Same button presses result in the exact same swings that were in Jedi Outcast (one minor timing tweak on the DFA, see below).

The only changes made were:

*The heavy DFA now has a forward+jump+attack activation key press that is the same as the yellow DFA.

*The Yellow DFA locks yaw movement.

*The specials (DFA especially) do much lower damage than they did in Outcast.

*A roll + stab move was added.

*A Kata move was added.

The two new stances (double and staff)

-You get the same basic "special/Kata for each stance" system that single saber users have.

-When in "secondary" mode, the double sabers are the same as the single saber light stance from Jedi Outcast without being able to lunge.

-When in "secondary" mode the staff is the same as the medium stance from Jedi Outcast without the "yellow DFA" being available.


So in review:


I have mastered every aspect of the Force powers since they are identical; no new time spent "learning them" is needed.

I know every swing and possible combination of swings with the single saber.

The secondary modes of the new stances are identical to the light/medium stance of the single saber, so no time "learning" them is needed.


What new content I must learn then?

Here it is:

I need to learn the basic swings for the two new stances (left + attack, back +right + attack, etc.), but *only for the primary modes since the secondary modes are identical to the single saber stances in the previous game.



alt attack+primary attack will make me do a Kata.



forward+duck+primary attack makes me do a rolling stab.



when I do a DFA now I have to remember to press forward+attack+jump at the same time as opposed to timing it like I did in Outcast.



When I do a yellow DFA I'm not going to be able to spin my mouse to aim my shot.


When I do a "basic" special I'm going to be charged 25 force points.

When I do a "Kata" I'm going to be charged 50 force points.


My DFA is only going to do about 50 damage if it lands head on as opposed to the 100 ish it did before.


when I use grip the only way for me to prevent my "gripped" opponent from breaking the hold is to rapidly shake my mouse up/down/all around, (but even then it's fairly easy to break for them) due to the line of sight restriction.


Guys, it may take you 7 months to learn that ^ but it took me about 7 minutes.

Seriously, you say "give it time" but I have to ask, what is there to learn?

Same powers as before.

Same single saber as before.

Two new stances have "secondary modes" that are the same as the single saber from Outcast.


Other than the universal "primary+secondary attack" command that results in a Kata and the "duck + primary attack" that results in a roll stab, what new "super moves" are there?

Nadda.


What new power combos are there?

Nadda, because nothing with the force powers has changed other than a nerf to grip and the slow down of rage+speed.


So all I have to learn is a few basic swings and two universal special move commands?

Yep.


Look I understand there may be a lot for some of you people to learn because you were not very experienced in the previous game, but for those of us who were, it takes about 5-10 minutes to learn the (very limited) new content.

But really, do people need 6 months of game play to grasp “holy **** I get charged 25 force for a DFA now”?

I don’t think so.

Premature patches are a bad idea for new games but when 85% of the game content has been around and play tested for year and a half, then *directly ported over with no changes other than a few restrictions on a couple of moves, I think it’s safe to say we do have a pretty good understanding of how things work..

boinga1
09-28-2003, 11:08 PM
Look...you failed to list everything that was changed. The fact is that ENOUGH of this game has been changed that all your JO startegies WILL NOT work the way they did in JO. Likewise, NOT all the startegies for JA have been discovered. Please don't tell me that pull/kicking and pull/throwing werer discovered in the first two weeks of playiung Outcast; they weren't. Enough of the game is different that your startegt needs to change-if you don't change, you will never really "master" JA.

[div3rse.jello]
09-28-2003, 11:51 PM
if he failed to list everything

then you can go ahead and take over and point out his oh so stupid errors

FK | unnamed
09-29-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
if he failed to list everything

then you can go ahead and take over and point out his oh so stupid errors

oh please do.

:)

Darkseid
09-29-2003, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by boinga1
[puts on flame-retardant suit]

Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.

Totally agree.

BTW, was the gameplay in JO ever fixed [they rushed out patches on that if I remember correctly]? I stopped playing that online during the 'arse-fighting' phase of patch development - somehow the sight of a load of Jedi running around backwards with their butts in the air just didn't seem very 'Star Wars'....

Spider AL
09-29-2003, 12:36 AM
Well I can name one change at least you failed to list. Begins with "D". I'll let you remember what else you've failed to list... But you've already listed quite a few key changes yourself, Unnamed. Just because you can't see how the game dynamic is subtly different in key areas and greatly different in others, is not anyone's fault but your own.

And don't forget, rate of attacks, range of attacks, amounts of damage, all have been altered. That's enough to make them new. It's all code. Because animations are similar, doesn't mean it won't all fit together in a completely different dynamic.

You yourselves have admitted that key changes in the game make certain strategies learned in JO useless. So there's no debate, really.

I've been playing JA the same amount of time as any of you. I was a champion JO player and a champion JK player before it. I made 38,000 kills in JO in the six months I played it solidly. I had a 97% victory percentage, COUNTING the matches I joined halfway through as losses. I invented one-hit kills that NOBODY but me ever used to my knowledge, and I don't consider MYSELF qualified to decide on gameplay changes yet, I SURE as heck don't consider YOU qualified, and god, why do you consider YOURSELVES qualified? It's beyond me. Less than a month after release and you're all screaming "I KNO ALL THERE IS TO KNO!!!111" No offence, but I consider that kind of sad. It gives serious players a bad name.

Look I understand there may be a lot for some of you people to learn because you were not very experienced in the previous game,Heh heee heee! Taste the ego. That's best ignored to be honest.

Dyehead, you can already see that we're coming out of the woodwork... We, as a COLLECTIVE, say:

Raven, please, no pandering to demands for premature patching!

dyehead
09-29-2003, 01:03 AM
*yawn* so 5 people say don't patch now..

Read what I said, this thread is about discussing the imbalance of single sabers compared to the dual sabers and the light staff.

READ, Al, READ.

There is a BUG and an ISSUE with SERVERS not DISPLAYING properly in the MASTER LIST.

Raven WILL release a patch to fix that. I am saying look into the other gripes so that they can release a GOOD and not PARTIAL patch.

gg.

Spider Al and 4 or 5 others don't trust RAVEN to make a GOOD patch! The rest of us DO!

Spider AL
09-29-2003, 01:05 AM
Spider Al and 4 or 5 others don't trust RAVEN to make a GOOD patch! The rest of us DO!FEEL the immaturity. :D

You've been discussing gameplay alterations and premature patching IN THIS, your OWN thread. So don't pretend it's not about gameplay alterations, and premature patching. And try to be more adult, please.

FK | unnamed
09-29-2003, 01:07 AM
Al because you got 897809709798798709709780978009098 kills on a kill tracker quite frankly, means jack **** in the world of competitive play.


Now you state you were a "champion" JO player, but I have to ask what you define as a champion?


I base my "skill" on the time I spent in various gaming North American gaming leagues like OGL and TWL and I also base it on my matches played against the people who sat at the top of the U.K. and German gaming leagues and ladders.

When I say the number of people in Jedi Outcast who can and did totally "own me" could be counted on one hand and have about 3 fingers left over, I'm basing it on my performance against the "crème de la crème" of competition level players on a global scale.



It’s not about how many people you beat Al, it’s about who you beat.


But back on topic, you say pre mature matches are bad.

I agree.

I also laid out how utterly similar these two games are and a very large portion of the games content has been played and tested for a year and a half because it is the identical content from the last game.


But straight to the point, answer me this kind sir:



Putting in toggle cvars for:


The special 25 force restriction penalty.

Kicks.

The grip line of sight restriction.


Will damage the game how?


Please be specific in your answers, as in "if you put in a cvar for the line of sight restriction people will <your comment here>."

Seriously Al, you and I would be on the same side of this if this were a totally new game.

The problem is, when you tell me this is a totally new game I’m having a hard time buying it because the majority of the content in our game type functions in the exact same way as it did in Outcast.

Full force saber only game play is all about the saber and force, and not a whole hell of a lot was changed or added.

The same strategies still work and the same bugs, glitches and exploits are still there.

The problem is, nerfs, alterations, call them what you wish, did have a very negative effect on our game type.

We do not have any trouble beating the average players on public servers, but when two top CTF clans or two top duelers play, it’s a stalemate.

Our knowledge of defense and our ability to stay alive is simply too high and unfortunately the “random factor” of quick, instant death has been removed so there is simply nothing to shift the tide when played by people or clans of this skill level.

Mephisto
09-29-2003, 07:10 AM
To me, a patch now is not needed. Yes, I'm still in fact adapting very much. In fact, i'm now trying to learn how to use the staff and I can safely say it is far more effective then the single. The first few duels that i used the staff, I won. Let's be practical, do a scissors with the staff = kill in 2-3 hits. Scissors with single = poof 30 dmg. I hope the rest of the community will voice out their opinion on the new saber system. Once again, I'm not asking for a patch, just giving me 2 cents :)

Kurgan
09-29-2003, 07:40 AM
I actually hope there is a patch, but NOT one that changes gameplay. I think it's perfectly fine the way it is.

It's Raven's call, but if you ask me, add options and fix bugs and increase stability, DON'T nerf this or change how that works just to pacify some percieved "imbalance" by a few loud fans.

Some people are still treating JA like "JK2 1.05" and they're mad because it's not exactly the same as they remember Jedi Outcast. This is the wrong approach. This is a NEW GAME. Changing it back into JK2 is completely nonsensical and counterproductive. Why not just go back to playing JK2 and its thousands of mods if JA pisses you off so much?

Whether we like to admit it or not though, the LFN community is still not the majority of players.

Raven is smart enough to distinguish between 20 people yelling to change this or that in this forum and the rest of the gaming populance who doesn't even care or who wants just the opposite.

I'd much rather see the ship vehicle code polished up, improved bot support (and bot support for Siege) added, rather than nerfing this or that move, etc.

Adding kicks to g_debugmelee 1 is fine by me, it won't change a thing as far as I'm concerned, but it also isn't really needed IMHO either, not for the vast majority of players.

I haven't seen 1 single Sabers Only Full Force CTF server since I've gotten the game. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but maybe it's an indication that Raven won't consider it a high priority when they start working on that patch (and remember they can only release a patch if LA decides to let them).

BloodRiot
09-29-2003, 09:24 AM
Once again I say: I've been in a powerduel server and i've been sucessfull in stayuing in the top 3 ranking players of that server (remember that powerduel you have to beat both opponenets to score 1 point... killing one doesnt count) and they came at me with all 3 types... I had a good success rate. Personally... I dont think there's anythin wrong with JA's sabers.

AxVegetA
09-29-2003, 12:11 PM
Kurgan i agreed with almost everything you said but this.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Adding kicks to g_debugmelee 1 is fine by me, it won't change a thing as far as I'm concerned, but it also isn't really needed IMHO either, not for the vast majority of players.

If they add kicks, should be the staff kicks and not the JO kicks or both.
Because staff kicks are more real and allows more playability in close combats.

VanishingVision
09-29-2003, 01:33 PM
[Disclaimer: {puts flame retardant suit on} this is just my opinion, and that’s all it is. I am posting what I have had experience in the past few weeks. If I, quote, “Fail to mention” some variable that may coincide with my topic, it is probably due to the fact that I have not experienced that aspect, or I am not well versed enough in it to make a fair review/overview. Thank you.]

OK here’s my personal stance on the matter,

The single saber has the most versatility of the three saber types.

Example:

(Not bragging) I was playing on a few servers last night, and easily defeated the staff and duel spamers, I fought a few guys that knew how to use the staff and duals correctly and they were great fun... but I still won... 20 times in a row, and won all four games in a row.

The thing that deters people from the single saber, more specifically the red style is that

1. It's slow
2. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable
3. Its damage ratio is weaker than the staff & Duals

I couldn't believe that after landing a perfect DFA (I tested with a friend) I only did 20 to 30 damage, but my friend just spun around in front of me and just grazed me for 35 damage... I mean c’mon!

But back to the point… the single... more specifically the red stance has three points to it that make it incredibly powerful

1. It is highly time able, and precise
2.It breaks defenses and can knock the opponents saber out of their hand
3. It can have several sub styles

Example:

I have created a system of fighting in game with the red style that can do 70 to 100 damage per hit, and shield myself at the same time if I time it just right... without katas... just plain moves...

So all in all the single saber has a high learners curve and allows for a more strategic… open ended style(s) versus the other two styles... (Not that they don’t have strategic possibilities but they only have one style a piece, not counting the very limited single blade alternate form)

Now… on to the subject of patching!

I do believe a patch is needed to correct some serious and minor bugs in the system, I do not believe it should be released in the next week or two, but should be held off for at least one month, so that other bugs can be surfaced and such. Any longer, and people will leave the game due to its “Broken combat”, if its released earlier people will leave the game due to its “Nerfed combat”. It’s all about equilibrium! I do think after the first patch they should patch again the following month or two. I do believe there needs to be a modification… not nerf to all five styles. I will post my list of changes later but I I have a class to get to! lol

Cheers,
-VanishingVision

Spider AL
09-29-2003, 02:02 PM
Now you state you were a "champion" JO player, but I have to ask what you define as a champion?The only people I call champions, are Tournament/Ladder champions. It's that simple.

Al because you got 897809709798798709709780978009098 kills on a kill tracker quite frankly, means jack **** in the world of competitive play.Ohh and here's me thinking that this debate was all about who had the experience necessary to decide what gameplay changes should be made. Well the fact that I got "897809709798798709709780978009098" kills on my kill tracker shows very well that I have more playtime than most people. My victory record and championship status show that I put that extensive experience to good use, and understood the game very well.

It’s not about how many people you beat Al, it’s about who you beat.Oh I beat some of the best players in my locale, make no mistake. Now in JK1... I beat great players all over the world. Made some sizeable cash, too.

Got anything else to throw, Unnamed? Thought not. :rolleyes:

Now that you've finished trying to and failing to undermine the fact that I'm one of the few people that can be legitimately classified as a pro-gamer that the JK series has produced, let's get back to the facts:

You believe yourself to be in posession of a god-given right to decide where the game goes from here, less than a month after release. I, heh, I disagree.

Will damage the game how?A fine question, I'll try to humour you and be as specific as possible, without submitting to your form-letter for my reply. ;)

The first answer is of course: Wait a couple of months, and I'll tell you. The whole POINT of my position is that barely a week after release, any gameplay changes would produce UNPREDICTABLE effects, altering the natural tactical and gameplay evolution of the game.

The second answer relates to the call for kick: It will affect other gametypes too, since you people refuse to ask for it JUST to be ported into NG CTF. FFA, 1 on 1 gunning, FF Guns CTF, adding new things into these gametypes will produce again, unpredictable gameplay dynamic changes.

To explain what I mean by unpredictable dynamic changes, we'll look at 1.03. So many little oversights because the patch was rushed out at the behest of people like you... So many little maneuvers that shrunk the game into a smaller, more tedious bundle. It only takes a tiny, tiny oversight on your part or on Raven's part to create HUGE repercussions, and moves and more importantly TACTICS that become dominant overnight. To me, the changes made in 1.03 were on the whole, negative. There were some interesting ideas, but the bad outweighed the good by a LONG chalk. Gameplay changes are NOT WORTH THE RISK. NOT this soon.

On a purely personal level, I've tried NG CTF since these threads started, and I can see what you're trying to say about the mode. But no matter how sympathetic I am to your plight, nor how justified I think your request is, it doesn't matter. I wouldn't ask Raven to patch my OWN ideas into the game so soon, let alone other people's.

***

Oh Dyeheeeead... eight of us in this thread alone now... and:

We say no to premature patching, Raven!

[D]Fugs
09-29-2003, 03:33 PM
So you're a champion Spider. Because you don't see yourself fit to impartially comment on the game's balance until a few months have passed, then it's unacceptable to hear our opinions on the game so far?

This game needs a patch, and I'd rather have Raven clean up the few things they know about sooner, and progress with more refined balancing in the future. They can only know some of these things if told by us.

We know you don't want a premature patch, but this shouldn't mean that you dumb-down everyone's post who tries to make a suggestion about the game that you do not agree with. Some are very good, but end up buried in closed threads in which you argue the toss with all and sundry, using most of the page to patronise people.

You will probably disect this like many others, but don't forget your premature patch tag-line. After all it's the basis of your argument to EVERYTHING on this board, and we wouldn't want LucasArts to forget it, would we?

As far as altering saber damage: I think we should clean up the hit detection first - then we can truely know how effective each move/style is.

[D]Fugs: Waiting for v1.01 please!

(Which Raven already know 'cos I made some suggestions on their boards. ;) )

Prime
09-29-2003, 04:08 PM
I have to agree with Al on the patching issue. Certainly there will be imbalances in every game, but also it is unlikely that every effective strategy and counter has been discovered yet. This is especially true with JA, because many people are trying their damnedest to use their strategies from JO without trying to find what works in JA. It would be very difficult for Raven to make an excellent patch it this point because even they don't know all the creative strategies that players are going to come up with over time.

Ultimately, I just don't want to see JA end up like JO. Each patch tried to compensate for decisions made in the previous version, and in doing so created other problems. 1.03 did not make the game universally better than 1.02, although there were improvements in some areas. 1.04 is generally viewed as better than 1.03, but even that nerfed a few things and made other areas worse.

The point is that a patch is not some magical solution that is going to solve every problem. Simply turning on kicks may solve one set of problems, but it is equally likely that it will create a whole new set of issues. Right now JA rules are such that it assumes that flipkicks are not present. As such weapons and moves are set up to more or less balance themselves out. Throwing in kicks (as one example) means that now you have a whole bunch of rules that weren't designed to take flipkicks into account. Who knows all the imbalances that this might lead to.

At least waiting for a while before patching will give more strategies time to develop, and thus give Raven a better idea of all the things they will have to consider. The fear is that releasing a patch too soon will not take everything into account because everything might not be known yet. Then we will be right back to where we were with JO, needing yet another patch to make up for problems created with the previous patch.

I'm not saying I ma against patching forever and always, but I do think it is too early to really know what all the issues are.

Prime
09-29-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by [D]Fugs
This game needs a patch, and I'd rather have Raven clean up the few things they know about sooner, and progress with more refined balancing in the future. This is exactly what led to the patch issues in JO. Surely everyone can agree that the path that JO took was not ideal?

Spider AL
09-29-2003, 04:12 PM
So you're a champion Spider. Because you don't see yourself fit to impartially comment on the game's balance until a few months have passed, then it's unacceptable to hear our opinions on the game so far?That's about the long and the short of it. If I don't consider myself qualified to declare what needs to be "fixed" about gameplay so soon, why should I consider YOU qualified? The answer is, I don't. Since I don't, it's my duty to make sure Raven hears both sides of the argument, thusly:

We don't want a premature patch, Raven! Remember JO v1.03!

This game needs a patch,It doesn't "need" anything. It could use some bugfixes, but gameplay changes a week after release? I think not, somehow. :rolleyes:

threads in which you argue the toss with all and sundry, using most of the page to patronise peopleI argue and patronise? No I don't. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but it's important that people remember: It's the opinion of [D]Fugs, who flames people in nasty private messages, and entitles those messages "flame". I kid you not. :D

[D]Fugs
09-29-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
why should I consider YOU qualified?
You don't need to for us to have our say. It's called free speech.

It could use some bugfixes,
Exactly.

I argue and patronise? No I don't.
LoL

[D]Fugs, who flames people in nasty private messages, and entitles those messages "flame". I kid you not. :D

Mate,
I'll reply here as the thread's closed,
Start talking as "..us Brits.." and you should expect someone to exercise their right to indicate other UK gamers are (very much) unlike you. Of course this you know. I don't want everyone to think before I even post, that I am an ignorant, opinionated, self important moron, much like yourself.
The observations I made about you all had reason, I will not list them as I do not have the time or patience, and as I wrote before, your immature, incessant crap had already become tiresome.
I can see you're having fun winding up children because they don't like their new video game, just try not to make the UK game players look like complete biggots please.

[D]Fugs

This is the PM. I should never have bothered. I apologise. I should not have classed all the people arguing with you on these boards as children, as they blatantly are not. I would have replied on the thread, as you basically made assumptions about me, and called my points worthless, but it was closed. Wonder why. I do not flame for the sake of it, and this argument has already gone too far. I'll keep making suggestions about this game, but on Ravenforums. :o

dyehead
09-29-2003, 05:22 PM
Raven, WE, the Majority of JA players who visit the LucasArts forums, think there are balance issues with the sabers! Please look into this when you fix the server issues!

You don't get it, do you Al. I figured someone of your omnipotence would have read my post earlier saying that servers are not showing up on the master list. I bet there are plenty of NG FF S/O CTF servers out there (Including mine) That go on and off of the server list. I haven't seen my server on the list for almost a week, because of whatever bug Raven has. (and YES, I PAID for my copy of JA.)

OBVIOUSLY, Raven is going to put out a fix for that. There have been countless people IN THESE FORUMS that have pointed out the flaws with the current saber system.

Some of them say, 'Oh well, yeah it's flawed but I still kill people,' and that's great. They are still admitting that the saber system is flawed, which is the bone that I'm picking here.

I wanted to see if others agreed with me regarding saber damage/balance. I don't think there have been any people who have disagreed with my statements of what I've noticed re: making contact with another person, damage dealth, hi force cost moves being very easy to avoid, certain moves being useless, (Red and Yellow DFA's due to either not hitting, or super low damage) and the fact that the dual sabers and light staff have become what people call "a noob stick" allowing them to spam attack and kill others very easily, no skill involved. (Not saying that it doesn't take skill to use those, but someone with the same level of skill as a single saberist using the dual sabers or light staff would win most of the time just due to damage dealt/blocking issues)

So, Raven needs this information. Does that mean that they will patch right away? No. Does that mean that when Raven patches that they will look at this thread for information? I sure hope so.

Luke skyflasher
09-29-2003, 06:13 PM
Al we were both here since the start (1.02) lets really look at the difference between now and 1.03 since you bring a comparison to the two so often:

The push/pull system was just as broke in 1.02 as it was in 1.03.

The back stab did just as much damage in 02 as it did in 03.

So those were not "specific" to the 1.03 patch, let's make sure everyone is clear on that before I start.



1.03 F-ups:


-Lowering saber damage scales across the board and having a higher rate of auto blocking made standard saber fighting worthless in any game mode outside of No Force saber only. Even in other saber only modes it was worthless if powers like drain were present due to the low damage scales.

-Lowering ammo rates for one (or was it two?) often used guns in CTF (repeater?)


Problems due to this patch:

-Swinging a saber was now a waste of time, so players went searching for anything that would get them kills.

The majority caught on that JO had a broken push/pull system and the BS was an instant kill and hence "ass fighting" was born.


here comes 1.04

-Sabers are still weak as hell, but now made even weaker because the BS is nerfed to the point of being almost useless.

-Again, players have even more of the game taken away so they go searching for the one thing left that can bring them kills.

And hence, kick whores are born.





Now fast forward a year...


Jedi Academy is released

-Players still have the same exact weak as hell sabers (in saber only mode).

-Players now have the "last possible thing we found to get around the weak saber problem" (kicks) removed.

-Players in addition to the weak sabers, now have to deplete their force pool to do specials, but to make it even worse, those specials only do about 1/3 the damage they did before. So the player is now hit with two reasons for not even wasting his time to use them.

-Players have the one "expandable and customizable" force power, grip made totally useless with a line of sight penalty.

-Players yet again, go searching for anything that will bring them kills against skilled opponents after all these new nerfs but since it’s the same force system and the majority of the saber system is recycled… the hit a brick wall named “20 minute stalemate”.


Now all of this would not be an issue if a slew of new content to learn was added, but it simply was not.


*No new force powers.

*Only a handful of new saber swings for the two new stances, and even then the secondary mode of each "new" stance is the same as the single saber stances from the last game.

Not to mention the saber is still very weak in any stance, new or old.


*Each "style" got a Kata/roll + stab but neither are seriously effective/destructive and unless you are on a server with a 0 force regen rate, the force penalty for using them makes it not worth using.





That is it.

Everything else, be it Force powers, single sabers, it's all recycled from Outcast.

And as far as those go ^, we had over a year experience working with them, trust us, if there was anything left "to find" it would have been found by now.






Seriously though, do you not see now why we are a little disgruntled with this release?


It continued the 1.03/1.04 trend of "let's keep taking stuff out and making things weaker".


This is bad, very bad.


Now you can counter this *if you add new content that is on par with the things you take out, but they simply did not do this.

The roll+stab and the Kata's are pretty looking, but totally useless against people with anything above a mediocre level of skill, I'm sorry but this is true.


Nothing else that could even be studied in regards to being a possible combat method was added, nothing at all.

What am I going to do, wall grab a guy to death?

The problem is, so much of this game is 100% identical Jedi Outcast (same force, same guns, same single saber style) that if you continue to chip away and take away all the lethal methods of killing a foe, eventually after 2 patches and a year and a half, you will reach a point where there is literally nothing left.


That is where we are at in full force saber only right now, and the reason we are speaking up.



It has nothing to due with taking the time to learn a "new game".

Hell scrap all of the Outcast content and start from scratch with all new powers and all new sabers, we would gladly learn it.

But what happened is we got back 85% of the things we have learned and mastered and only maybe 15% new content and that 15% is ridiculously weak when compared to the 15% that was taken out in the transition (kicks, grip nerf etc.).


1.03 and 1.04 were made for one reason and one reason only, let's not b.s. ourselves.

It was made to give the noobs who were getting raped a means to survive.

You don't take one lethal killing method after another out of a game to speed up game play or make it more dangerous, you do it to make it softer and easier for the less skilled who can not survive.


Jedi Academy follows that trend to the letter.

It's the same thing they do in public schools where you keep making the questions and tests easier and easier until all the kids in the class can answer them...

VanishingVision
09-29-2003, 06:13 PM
Crud, I thought the argument was over when I posted, I should have waited till they were done debating so someone would actually read my post ... sniffle ... sniffle...

Shrug,
-VanishingVision

FK | unnamed
09-29-2003, 06:15 PM
that was me ^ my account was being un honorable last night and my log-in was laming me.

dyehead
09-29-2003, 09:13 PM
I will post the consensus gripes in the Raven Forums sometime later today..

[div3rse.jello]
09-30-2003, 02:03 AM
Your gay bold things are ridiculously stupid, people.

Stop it please before I die laughing.

Spider AL
10-01-2003, 12:55 AM
I figured someone of your omnipotence would have read my post earlier saying that servers are not showing up on the master list. Oh I "get it" just fine, dye. I "get" that you're trying to squeeze your premature gameplay alterations in with a legitimate bugfixing patch, which is what patching should be for.

We want no premature gameplay changes, Raven! Remember 1.03, and wait!

Al we were both here since the start (1.02) lets really look at the difference between now and 1.03 since you bring a comparison to the two so often:

The push/pull system was just as broke in 1.02 as it was in 1.03.

The back stab did just as much damage in 02 as it did in 03.

So those were not "specific" to the 1.03 patch, let's make sure everyone is clear on that before I start.
Ah, have to stop you there unnamed. ;) Firstly, the primary reason backstab became a problem in 1.03 because it was COMPARATIVELY overpowered. It didn't inherently cause more damage than in 1.02, but COMPARED to the other sabre moves in 1.03, it was the most powerful move. That meant that it was used most of the time, and caused the game to be shrunk to a one-move affair. That's an example of bad, premature patching. The more premature a patch is, the more mistakes are likely to creep in, and the more unexpected the inevitable side effects of gameplay changes will be.

To clarify, in 1.02 one could pull people over, yes. But one had a choice of several moves that could finish that person off right there. In 1.03, one move. Backswing. Tedious. Lack of variety = bad.

SECONDLY, most people forget the batsabre effect of red stance in 1.02. Red stance strikes physically knocked people back. That meant that the sabre wasn't in the opponent as long as in 1.03, when batsabre was removed. This made the oversight of leaving backswing at the same damage level EVEN starker, EVEN more imbalancing.

Don't get me wrong, I think nerfing the sabres for 1.03 was one of the WORST ideas that was suggested on these boards before the patch. The WORST. But if you're GOING to nerf something, you must do it in a balanced way, otherwise you'll not only have a nerfed game, but an imbalanced nerfed game. :)

-Lowering saber damage scales across the board and having a higher rate of auto blocking made standard saber fighting worthless in any game mode outside of No Force saber only.This is in fact, untrue. A single overhead red stance strike took gunners out, providing they didn't have huge amounts of shields at the time. Combined with sight, this helped me win a lot of points in guns CTF. People on low force rarely activate sight themselves, so my ambushes were that much more effective on repeater-wielding flagrunners too busy to look in dark secluded alcoves. Tee hee. A lot of people complained that sabres were useless in guns matches both before and after both patches. I never had a problem with it, and used it consistently throughout JO's lifetime.

-Sabers are still weak as hell, but now made even weaker because the BS is nerfed to the point of being almost useless.Personally I'd rather see people running around with sabres using all the moves and not doing much damage, than running around using one move and getting insta-kills. Such things do not reward skill and practice. Therefore I think your analysis of 1.04 is invalid. Oh, and NF duel was improved by 1.04 too. Not that leaping backswing was hard to avoid when a newcomer threw it at you, but it got tedious to see the same thing over and over. And newbies had a better chance of accidentally killing me because of backswing too, that's what 1-hit-kills do to a game. I didn't like that.

I like the fact that whatever skill I possess makes me virtually invulnerable when newbies attack. I want it to stay that way. I worked hard to get that advantage.

It's the same thing they do in public schools where you keep making the questions and tests easier and easier until all the kids in the class can answer them...Oh I agree entirely with your analogy. But that's not the point. In JO, new techniques were being discovered up until the end of july, that made sabres very dangerous. Leaping overhead attacks, exploitation of the side flip, etc. Now, I personally loved 1.04's sabre fighting once I'd had plenty of time to find those new techniques. That's proof enough to me that each iteration of a game needs time to be explored. We, the people who were discovering and using new techniques, never stopped discovering them. There was a new technique every day for a while! Techniques that changed the way we played the game.

Sure, 1.02 would have been nice. But one must make the best of things. Change can mean bad things as easily as good, so it's best to have time to scout out the land before moving around.

You can say "this isn't a new game" all you like, but there are subtle differences in the rhythm of sabre duels that are being picked up on and exploited by players already. Because of the range of the attacks. Because of their rate. Because of their damage. Because of the hit graphics. Because of the sounds. Because of EVERY subtle difference. And you may regard it as a patch, yes, but legally and technically it's not. It's a new game. And that's all the proof anyone needs.

Most of the weapons and the interface for JO were inspired by JK. I LOVE that similarity. I don't decry it. Likewise I'd be disappointed if Raven had shuffled the control system around for no reason, when the JO system was quite servicable (though some people will say that it wasn't intuitive enough) and was quite like the system from JK before it. It's fun to play a game in a series that you're accustomed to. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way, but hey.

1.03 and 1.04 were made for one reason and one reason only, let's not b.s. ourselves.

It was made to give the noobs who were getting raped a means to survive.Raven made 1.03 because a vocal minority of "noobs" who were getting "raped" asked them to. They made 1.04 to try to fix the mess that 1.03 made of gunning, of guns CTF, of FFA, and to an extent, NF duel. I SO sympathise with Raven on that. They did what they thought the community wanted. Unfortunately what they thought was "the community" turned out to be a bunch of self-interested whiners who could shout very very loudly.

That's why I'm here now, though, to see if I can help stop it happening again, or at least to plant a seed of warning in Raven's collective mind so that they'll be more cautious this time around.

We say: no premature gameplay patching, Raven! A couple of months at least before gameplay changes!

GreenSmoke
10-01-2003, 01:27 AM
how many hours a day do you devote to LF posting m8?

Emon
10-01-2003, 01:36 AM
Considering his 21 month average is only 0.78 posts per day, not that much.

Ardent
10-01-2003, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by GreenSmoke
how many hours a day do you devote to LF posting m8?

Not as many as he devotes to thought, apparently.

1.03 was a pretty terrible patch all-in-all, but the current JA is 1.03 all over again. Sure, people will mock you just the same (assfighter and whatnot) but, well, it works. FBS owns FFA, TFFA, CTF and NF dueling. I can't really speak on FF dueling as I don't do much of that, but I assume it's just the same.

Paired saber FBS is the BEST way I've found of nailing an FC in JA's version of S/O CTF. Why? Because it does nearly 200 damage on a solid hit. Considering it's one of the few moves remaining where you can maintain any sort of momentum through the majority of the movement, it's a no-brainer for FC stompin'.

No, I don't think there would be any "premature patching" going on if Raven wanted to tweak up saber damage here and there.

Instead of screaming "OMG OMG OMG IM A JEDI!!!!11111oneone" why don't you actually get out and play the game? It's pretty obvious that there are some major balance issues RIGHT NOW. Things that should, in all honesty, BE ADDRESSED.

Single saber's advantage is reach. Fair enough, its definitely got the reach. Its kata is versatile and useful in nearly every situation I've stumbled into, and it hasn't changed, in use and basic technique, from JO. It isn't, however, in the same league as even paired sabers, let alone the saberstaff as far as damage potential runs. There is no "spamability" for the single saber, so it can't even keep an enemy on the defensive the same way paired sabers and the saberstaff do.

All-in-all, it's a fairly inferior weapon in JA. Not totally useless, obviously, but not what it could and SHOULD be. It may not deserve a patch in and of itself, but it doesn't deserve to be shelved until later.

Emon
10-01-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
Instead of screaming "OMG OMG OMG IM A JEDI!!!!11111oneone" why don't you actually get out and play the game? It's pretty obvious that there are some major balance issues RIGHT NOW. Things that should, in all honesty, BE ADDRESSED.

Who's arguing this? Seriously, I haven't payed much attention to this thread. Why was there ever an issue about the issues needing to be tended to? The only thing I really see is people complaining that the controls or system itself isn't "leet" enough for their "omgwtfhardcore uranoob" skills.

Ardent
10-01-2003, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Emon
Who's arguing this? Seriously, I haven't payed much attention to this thread. Why was there ever an issue about the issues needing to be tended to? The only thing I really see is people complaining that the controls or system itself isn't "leet" enough for their "omgwtfhardcore uranoob" skills.

Did you miss the entire monlogue Spider posted?

Seriously, if you're not even going to read the last five posts, why reply?

Emon
10-01-2003, 02:17 AM
What I saw was an analysis of Jedi Outcast and why he liked the saber combat system, not, "OOMGOMG I R JHEDI JA R TEH PERFACT GAEM"

Ardent
10-01-2003, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Emon
What I saw was an analysis of Jedi Outcast and why he liked the saber combat system, not, "OOMGOMG I R JHEDI JA R TEH PERFACT GAEM"

He based it on "what it was like" rather than "what it is."

Obviously, this is great for fantasy fulfillment, but terribly bad for productivity. The plain fact of the matter is: there are problems NOW that need to be addressed VERY SOON. Not "in a while." Not just SP issues, either (and I can think of a few), but the issue with the single saber isn't something a couple of people have surmised. It is something dozens of people have OBSERVED.

The whole argument that JA is not JO is something he felt necessary to propagate, yet he's willing to use JO to talk about why JA is fine for now? No, sorry, I don't buy hypocrisy at any price.

I liked JO just as well as he, but I played 1.03 and 1.04 when they were patched because I was willing to believe Raven had made these decisions for a reason. I had fun playing the game too. Now, however, I have to place my faith in Raven that, once again, they will make the correct decision and fix the problems. I can desire a "balanced nerfing" or whatever...but I don't agree that I should have to wait for a fix. Balance is something nobody can agree on anyway, so why delay to cater to a thought that's subjective by its very nature?

As I said...there are problems that need to be addressed as soon as possible. Waiting shouldn't be on Raven's list of things to do.

FK | unnamed
10-01-2003, 03:33 AM
Lack of variety = bad.

Agreed.

and in taking out and prohibiting many things that were available to people in Outcast, but no longer are in Academy, we are continuing the "let's keep removing and weakening things until people have nothing left to bitch about being "spammed/whored" Raven patch mantra.

This would not be an issue *if the vast majority of offensive/defensive content was changed into something new, but it’s the same old drain and it functions exactly like it did in JO (just a small example).



But if you're GOING to nerf something, you must do it in a balanced way; otherwise you'll not only have a nerfed game, but an imbalanced nerfed game. :)

Agreed again.

But in Academy we got the powerful force combos taken away, sabers weakened (in saber only mode), yet the all powerful drain remains identical to it's former self.

ff/so now has healing being done at 3 times the rate damage is being caused.

Not very balanced if you ask me, and hence the reason all these players are complaining about "stalemates".





This is in fact, untrue. A single overhead red stance strike took gunners out, providing they didn't have huge amounts of shields at the time. Combined with sight, this helped me win a lot of points in guns CTF. People on low force rarely activate sight themselves, so my ambushes were that much more effective on repeater-wielding flag runners too busy to look in dark secluded alcoves. Tee hee. A lot of people complained that sabres were useless in guns matches both before and after both patches. I never had a problem with it, and used it consistently throughout JO's lifetime.



I'll take your word for it, because I never really played all weapon games in-depth.

My game type of choice does not have pick ups enabled so shields are never an issue.



Personally I'd rather see people running around with sabres using all the moves and not doing much damage, than running around using one move and getting insta-kills. Such things do not reward skill and practice.

Agreed yet again, and I'm going to make big bold letters to the others reading this:

Hence the reason when many of you say "use saber damage scale at 2 or 3" this is NOT a solution.

We do not want a game type that once required precision and skill to be turned into a "bump and kill" fest where everyone just flails around randomly getting instant kills by simply brushing up against people with un aimed swings.



I like the fact that whatever skill I possess makes me virtually invulnerable when newbie’s attack. I want it to stay that way. I worked hard to get that advantage.

So did I.

And the newbies pose no more a threat to me now then they did 6 months ago in Outcast.

Problem is, when a match/duel has two people or teams who are smart enough to grasp that healing can be done at 3 times the rate damage can be caused, matches simply never end.





Because of EVERY subtle difference. And you may regard it as a patch, yes, but legally and technically it's not. It's a new game. And that's all the proof anyone needs.

Subtle is fine and dandy, but subtle does not beat a guy playing total defense in a duel who is just holding down the drain key, nor does it beat a seasoned team in CTF that provides energize/team heal support to their capper.

If you take away the "WHAM YOUR ASS IS DEAD" moves and damage scales (like the 1 hit kill rage+dfa's, the 100+ grip+kick, etc.) you need to replace them with moves and combos of the same damage rate if the healing factor is left unchanged, and this simply was not done.




Raven made 1.03 because a vocal minority of "noobs" who were getting "raped" asked them to. They made 1.04 to try to fix the mess that 1.03 made of gunning, of guns CTF, of FFA, and to an extent, NF duel. I SO sympathize with Raven on that. They did what they thought the community wanted. Unfortunately what they thought was "the community" turned out to be a bunch of self-interested whiners who could shout very very loudly.

That's why I'm here now, though, to see if I can help stop it happening again, or at least to plant a seed of warning in Raven's collective mind so that they'll be more cautious this time around.

Agreed again, but you simply can't look at things with a black/white cut and dry mentality.

The people asking for a simple toggle cvar to bring back kicks or to toggle the other nerfs (like force usage for specials and the grip LOS penalty) on/off are in no way shape or from anything like the people who cried for 1.03/04.

For starters, we are not complaining about a move/combo we can not figure out how to defend against.

Hell, we are begging for any move or high damage combo to be found/put in.

Anything, we don't care how cheap or "lame" it is, but the undisputable fact is:

In Full Force saber only, the healing powers are stronger than any single saber or force based attack and any combination of saber and/or force attack.

There is simply no way to kill people who can heal at two (drain) or three times (team based heal) the rate his opponent can damage.

It's just basic math.

You cause 25 hp of damage; I can heal 50 at the same rate.

You cause 75 in one shot; my team heals me to 100 in one shot.

Stalemate.



:mad:


I also understand and will openly say, this is NOT an across the board problem.

A gun/saber match is actually pretty balanced.

The problem is when the gun is taken out of the equation, the game play balance all goes down the crapper.


Now before anyone says "saber only with force is just a fraction of the game" let me remind everyone that sabers are "just a fraction of the game" as well.

But it was enough of a “fraction” that the overwhelming number of servers ran various types of saber only modes that vastly outnumbered "full weapon" servers in JO and still do in JA.

It was also enough of a “fraction” that the gaming ladders for JO had far more activity on full force saber only game types than every single other game type combined.

The saber and force were the single two most popular elements of this game and the main focus of Academy for a reason.


It's what people want.

Just a few weeks of beta testing could have prevented this mess, but like the guy who made the final call on not putting a cd key+ key server in the final release, someone is making some really bad decisions.

Emon
10-01-2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
The whole argument that JA is not JO is something he felt necessary to propagate, yet he's willing to use JO to talk about why JA is fine for now? No, sorry, I don't buy hypocrisy at any price.

I think maybe you missed his point. I saw Spider AL explaining why premature patches are bad (reckless you might say) by using JO as an example, and explaining the progression of gameplay and various problems in the patches. Either you got lost in that (understandable), or I am missing something else.

Bottom line, I think AL realizes JA has problems, but doesn't want Raven to run out and fix it to shut up some whining people on some forums, he thinks they should wait a while (hence the reference to how new gameplay was discovered for JO?), listen to general user input, and then make their own decision on what they feel is best for the game, and patch until it's perfect.

NITEMARE
10-01-2003, 08:12 AM
oh boy, i do not envy the poor raven souls. who ever is responsible for reading the forums and forwarding the info to the coders, has a pain in the ass job. probably interns and aprentices have to do this. that can't be enough. it is inpossible to gather enough usable info from such a huge amount of posts. the only real thing would be to play the game yourself. but i doubt, that they have time fo that.

well the nerfed sabers will remain, that's for sure. i didn't like this and tried to make them more lethal but it didn't help the gameplay. the reason is "hit detection accuracy". that's beyond modding capabilities so we could only ask raven on this issue. meanwhile we have to accept, that high damage would make the game less fair. if your life depends on 2 swings(red stance did 100 dmg in 1.02), and one misses because the netcode cannot afford singleplayer like accuracy, that's not fair for the attacker. the same with blocking, if you should have blocked a swing, but it didn't, you die!
while that randomness can bring the fun back to public servers where newbies and pro's are playing, it destroys competitive ambitions like ladders and so on...

i played JA online for some days and have to agree on the single saber. it is less lethal than the kiddie blades. i used the staff, and voilá, i kicked ass all of a sudden!
i don't get why they totally nerfed the single saber specials. i certainly don't want them back as they were in 1.03. however there is a ballance issue. but a small one...

Spider AL
10-01-2003, 03:25 PM
Agreed again, but you simply can't look at things with a black/white cut and dry mentality.Actually one HAS to look at things with such a mentality, Unnamed. Premature gameplay patching is bad, so one must not prematurely patch gameplay.

You agreed with nearly all of my points about the negative effects of JO v.1.03 in your previous post. Frankly, I cannot understand how you can sit there, KNOW all this as I do, and still want to risk sweeping gameplay alterations that will not only affect the gametypes we've been discussing, but ALL gametypes.

Those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it, you know?

I've said since these threads started that I understand the situation of NG CTFers. But instituting overall changes to help just one sub-group? Not worth it.

If I were dissatisfied with FF guns (and there are some things I am dissatisfied with in FF guns don't forget) I wouldn't risk damaging the whole game in the way that 1.03 damaged JO just on the offchance that it might improve that one gametype. I'm no hypocrite, I only expect the same level of maturity from others that I myself am currently trying to demonstrate. I would LOVE to go to Raven's offices and force them to change things in JA at gunpoint, because I KNOW. Not think, I KNOW that my way would WORK.

But on past experience, I also know that no single way is free of side effects. And logically and intellectually I know, any changes I make would carry with them unexpected side-effects that would alter EVERYONE's gaming experience, possibly for the worse. So I will wait for at least three more months before I start lobbying for those changes. It's really that simple. I don't consider MYSELF qualified to administer alterations to the game, and I don't think anyone else should consider themselves qualified either. Not a week after release, Unnamed.

The whole argument that JA is not JO is something he felt necessary to propagate, yet he's willing to use JO to talk about why JA is fine for now? No, sorry, I don't buy hypocrisy at any price.Where did you get that, Ardent? I've never claimed that "JA is fine", that's your mistake. I've only ever used JO as an example of how premature patching can ruin aspects of the game for everyone who enjoys it, once again, your mistake. Please read my posts more carefully, I know they're long and probably tedious, but you seem to have missed the point of them. Get your facts straight before you go around implying that people are hypocrites.

No premature patching, Raven! Remember JO v.1.03!

Emon, exactly what I've been trying to say.

FK | unnamed
10-01-2003, 03:59 PM
AL, you neglect to mention all we are asking for is a *toggle cvar.

At first yes, a “patch” across the board but after some thought all we want is a cvar like the way guns and force can be enabled or disabled.


Repeat, not an across the board change.


Just a simple cvar that let's those servers who run game types that have been made unplayable by these nerfs, the option to reintroduce said elements so as to give those players what they want.


Can you honestly say a simple 1/0 cvar will destroy game play across the board?

Has the damage scale cvar destroyed games for gunners?

Of course not.


And a kick/grip/special+force cost set of cvars would be used no differently than the two most popular cvars in Outcast and Academy:

g_weaponDisable 65531
g_ForcePowerDisable XXXX


Neither of those two cvars destroyed this game, and if anything those two cvars kept this game alive longer than anything else did.

Many people would have bailed on Outcast after the first few weeks if there was no such thing as "saber only" servers.

There is simply no way to deny that, you refresh a master list and 90% of the servers have guns or some force power disabled.

People find a game type they really enjoy and stick with it.


Any argument that a kick cvar will destroy game play is absurd.

I don't like the guns in JO, so when I refresh a list I filter them out.

Put a "boot icon" for servers running kicks in the master list and people can do the same.

Ardent
10-01-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
But on past experience, I also know that no single way is free of side effects.

This could have been more easily understandable if you'd simply written "Yes, I'm a hypocrite." Thanks for playing.

FK | unnamed
10-01-2003, 04:17 PM
And as for premature patching, reality is with Halo out in 24 hours, ut2004 in a month or so and Hl2 in a few months, something better be done to keep the “hardcore gamer” element around, and it needs to be done very quick.


Look at the Outcast launch frenzy.
These forums were jumping, people were excited and raving over the game and it was just a blast.

Academy launch?

I think I just saw a tumbleweed blow through…

The majority of post-release comments on these forums have been almost all disappointing.

And I’m not even talking about the competitive players who hate the game; I’m just talking about the significantly large number of “well it was ok but I was kind of disappointed” posts the average Joe is making.

Waiting 6 months to do something about this game when you have 3 immense PC releases on the horizon is like telling a terminally ill cancer patient he can’t have a cigarette because it’s bad for him…

Ardent
10-01-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
Waiting 6 months to do something about this game when you have 3 immense PC releases on the horizon is like telling a terminally ill cancer patient he can’t have a cigarette because it’s bad for him…

That's my job. gg!

Spider AL
10-01-2003, 06:01 PM
AL, you neglect to mention all we are asking for is a *toggle cvar.

At first yes, a “patch” across the board but after some thought all we want is a cvar like the way guns and force can be enabled or disabled.Oh I think you'll find that some of your more hard-line friends have notably failed to tone down their demands. That aside, I've gone into the two facts that:

a: A toggle variable splits the community automatically

b: If THIS demand is pandered to, other demands will also be pandered to

I haven't seen any of you ask Raven for "a kick toggle variable that's only applicable to NG CTF" yet. If you all did, I wouldn't be here of course.

Waiting 6 months to do something about this game when you have 3 immense PC releases on the horizon is like telling a terminally ill cancer patient he can’t have a cigarette because it’s bad for him…I appreciate the analogy, though equating JA with a terminally ill person doesn't bode well for the future anyway, hence negating the need for ANY gameplay changes at all... :D But seriously, premature patching, like cigarettes, is bad. Why would one want to indulge in that anyway? it's doubtful whether anything GOOD can come of it.

This could have been more easily understandable if you'd simply written "Yes, I'm a hypocrite." Thanks for playing.Ahh Ardent, if you'd kept up the pretence of actually debating instead of posting petty and meaningless one-line "witticisms" needling BOTH sides in this debate, I might not have seen through you. Curse me for a blind fool. Ladies and gentlemen, may I present Goadius Sinistra, the common or garden troll.

Ardent
10-01-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Ahh Ardent, if you'd kept up the pretence of actually debating instead of posting petty and meaningless one-line "witticisms" needling BOTH sides in this debate, I might not have seen through you. Curse me for a blind fool. Ladies and gentlemen, may I present Goadius Sinistra, the common or garden troll.

What debate? You asked me to show you how you were a hypocrite. I did. End of debate.

Oh and, while we're on it, everyone, Onerous Arachnid. Take a bow, AL. Seriously, the only point you've argued thus far is how stupid it would be to patch now, when it's pretty clear that waiting would be dumber by far.

FK | unnamed
10-01-2003, 06:45 PM
Like I said Al, we have weapon disable and force disable cvars, both *helped keep JO alive.

When only a very small % of the servers ran full weapon, all force default etc. in JO, you can't sit here and tell me people did not like the *option to customize their game play/servers.

Not to mention Raven even publicly stated they marketed this game (JA) towards the larger number of players who preferred playing a game type that was based directly on the console cvar g_weaponDisable 65531...

Options = good.

And while yes, some in the “pro kick” camp want an across the board change, the overall best solution for the community is to do like they did with sabers and force:

Let the players themselves decide with a cvar.

Spider AL
10-01-2003, 10:12 PM
What debate? You asked me to show you how you were a hypocrite. I did. End of debate.I guess I've just proved that you're a dolphin then, because I just said it. Which is all YOU did. Proof my backside. Go and troll someone who cares, you won't get a rise out of me with your emotive and unsubstantiated flamebait. Your kind aren't even an annoyance anymore. :rolleyes: ADMIN! Troll here! Name of Ardent.

When only a very small % of the servers ran full weapon, all force default etc. in JO, you can't sit here and tell me people did not like the *option to customize their game play/servers.
Oh people liked it fine. People liked it a little too much, in fact... In fact, a cohesive competitive community was quite hard to engender in JO. One group played one type of game, with one set of weapons and one mod, another group played something completely different, and the twain could quite simply not compete. Give a man a meal to eat in five minutes, and he'll scoff as much as possible. Give a man a choice of five-hundred meals and five minutes, and he'll waste four of those minutes choosing one, and he'll go hungry. That's what happened to JO, and I don't think that was a good thing. I wouldn't call it survival of the game any more than I'd call JK's last year and a half on the zone, "survival."

So no, it's a bad thing. No STANDARD.

FK | unnamed
10-01-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL

So no, it's a bad thing. No STANDARD.


That is also 100% Spider Al opinion.

And if you’re going to sit here and say g_weaponDisable 65531 was a bad move, chances are you’re going to be sitting on that island all by yourself.



The fact is the paying customers *wanted these separate game types and had the option to do it, so obviously it happened.

If g_weaponDisable 65531 would have never existed, chances are neither would the game Jedi Academy.

Remember Raven based the majority of this game's focus around saber only combat this time.

The reason for that was, this is what the majority of paying customers wanted in Outcast and this is what they still want.

dyehead
10-01-2003, 10:43 PM
Did you use guns in SP, Al?

I didn't... Except for the level where your light saber gets taken away.. I didn't use a gun for anything else..

Sabers ARE the reason this game exists.

FK | unnamed
10-01-2003, 10:46 PM
Location: Sneaking up behind Spider Al with a bottle of chloroform

lol wtf?

I give Al hard time but damn....

:eek:

Ardent
10-01-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by dyehead
Did you use guns in SP, Al?

I didn't... Except for the level where your light saber gets taken away.. I didn't use a gun for anything else..

Sabers ARE the reason this game exists.

Notice he calls it "No Guns." I think that about explains how much he knows about the subject at hand, dye.

Plus he likes to call people trolls when they can prove he's a hypocrite. He's made most people's ignore lists. I leave him off mine because I like to send links to people, even random people who have nothing to do with the JA community, and even they laugh at his 'logic.' So...ggs

Spider AL
10-02-2003, 12:56 AM
That is also 100% Spider Al opinion.

And if you’re going to sit here and say g_weaponDisable 65531 was a bad move, chances are you’re going to be sitting on that island all by yourselfOh that's fine, just remember that the opposite is just YOUR opinion too. And even if your opinion is held by the majority, well... a lot of folks thought the earth was flat, at one point. ;) This is ALL pretty much a matter of opinion.

As for weaponDisable, it's a slightly less fundamental thing than adding kick variables, and I'll explain why: Those who play with guns, no matter how few guns, will gravitate towards a competitive group that uses guns, and that competitive arena will probably contain ALL guns. So we're talking a low percentage of lost competitors there. Same with low force sabre duelling. Whatever wierd one-star powers a server allows, the players on it will naturally gravitate towards a low force sabre duelling competition. And that competition will, as with the guns, have its own standard of what's allowed and what isn't.

So force powers and guns, take one out, add one in, it WILL make splits, but smaller splits. Because a lot of players like myself, used kick a LOT in JO. If there were a similar move ported into JA, I'm sure I'd go back to using it. So would a lot of other people. It would split the community right down the middle, and who can say what competitions would do about it? Kick was fundamental to the game in JO. If it were fundamental in JA, would it become indespensable? I think possibly so. If so, we kickers would be unwilling to compete in a no-kick environment, and vice-versa. So that's the beef to be honest, a two-way split.

Even back in JO, there was that split. There were always two duelling communities, one that allowed kick, one that didn't. The players from each didn't really like the other gametype. That's just a matter of record.

Did you use guns in SP, Al?Sure. Those pesky conky-troopers fell to my speeded up stouker wrath. :D I even killed a large number of Sith with my conky. You just gotta pick your moment.

So are you saying MP should be exactly like SP then, Dyehead? If so, that's nonsense, and irrelevant to boot.

Notice he calls it "No Guns." I think that about explains how much he knows about the subject at hand, dye.Heh heh heh. Ahh youthful troll... Back in 1998, when the JK community had really evolved on the zone, the standard notation for games was as follows:

NH: No Hacks
NG: No guns (sabres only for your benefit)
FF: Full Force
NF: No Force
BGJ: Battleground Jedi
CO: Canyon Oasis

etcetera, etcetera. I think you've just demonstrated your own ignorance of the proud history of this game-series, Ardent. I don't expect anything better from a troll, though.

Plus he likes to call people trolls when they can prove he's a hypocrite. I like to call people who are trying to annoy, start flamewars and/or needle people illogically without foundation, sense or maturity, trolls. That's you, sonny jim.

And your insults will have to become SO much more effective before they have any effect whatsoever. GG D00d!!!11, keep on throwing those phantom snowballs. :D

Ardent
10-02-2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
[Heh heh heh. Ahh youthful troll... Back in 1998, when the JK community had really evolved on the zone, the standard notation for games was as follows:

NH: No Hacks
NG: No guns (sabres only for your benefit)
FF: Full Force
NF: No Force
BGJ: Battleground Jedi
CO: Canyon Oasis

etcetera, etcetera. I think you've just demonstrated your own ignorance of the proud history of this game-series, Ardent. I don't expect anything better from a troll, though.[/b]

Indeed, you've found me out. I don't live in the past. I played JK on the Zone with a 56k connection, so I only dueled (and am aware of the abbreviations kthx). The point is, everyone else refers to it as Saber-Only (S/O or SO), so why can't you? Because you're living in the past. Which is exactly what your entire position boils down with. You're so happy with the status quo, it's a wonder you even bothered to buy JA at all. I mean, it could only get worse with improvement right?

I like to call people who are trying to annoy, start flamewars and/or needle people illogically without foundation, sense or maturity, trolls. That's you, sonny jim.

Hey, if I wanted to start a flamewar, trust me, you'd be in the middle of a raging inferno right now. If I annoy you, tough ****, you annoy me. If you think I approached my position illogically, I question your definition of logic. If you want to discuss the psychological ramifications of a guilt-free anonymous society via the internet, there are forums for that. But the fact of the matter is that what you're engaging in right now is libel. I don't like it, but instead of crying to an administrator, and I'm 100% certain this thread is being watched, I simply treat you exactly the same way as you treat me. If you find that trite or offensive, STOP IT.

And your insults will have to become SO much more effective before they have any effect whatsoever. GG D00d!!!11, keep on throwing those phantom snowballs. :D

Look man, I'm sorry your father beat you or whatever, but I'm not here to insult you.

You're not worth my time.

I'm here to make sure everyone can see your "logic" for what it is: garbage. I'd be highly appreciative if you could take your logic and go help out bin Laden as a logistics advisor or something.

Kurgan
10-02-2003, 01:18 AM
I'll concur that I'm also old school and more familiar with NG than with "SO" (which I honestly never saw used until the FK guys started debating the merits of kick on here in the last week or two).

Though, the most common way we said it was:

Sabers FF CO (arggg, the dreaded overplayed Canyon Oasis, lol)
NF guns NH/NC (No Hack/No Cheat, as if there was a difference)

Like so.

"Guns" implied all weapons besides the saber, although there was no way to really disable the saber, so it really meant "all weapons."

"Sabers" usually meant saber duels, but you could theoretically use your bryar pistol and fists (unless the bryar was removed from the map like in the case of 'Dark Jedi Levels' and other addons, MotS did this for Ranked Jedi as well). See there was no duel mode in JK1 or MotS, just "saber levels" that didn't have ammo or weapon pickups.

That's also where the term "mana" comes from. In JK1 they called it "Force Mana."

Ardent
10-02-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I'll concur that I'm also old school and more familiar with NG than with "SO" (which I honestly never saw used until the FK guys started debating the merits of kick on here in the last week or two).

Well, the current ladders all refer to it as such. I dunno, maybe I'm weird, or maybe it's because I do play competitively, but I've never missed the "old days."

"Sabers" usually meant saber duels, but you could theoretically use your bryar pistol and fists (unless the bryar was removed from the map like in the case of 'Dark Jedi Levels' and other addons, MotS did this for Ranked Jedi as well). See there was no duel mode in JK1 or MotS, just "saber levels" that didn't have ammo or weapon pickups.

And usually fewer people and thus...smaller lag. I barely remember JK at all, and couldn't tell you where my disk was at...but it's still installed on my old computer. I know people still play on the Zone, and I remember how to use the double-slash. That's about it.

That's also where the term "mana" comes from. In JK1 they called it "Force Mana."

That I remember. I don't mind, though, as it's pretty clear what you mean by it. The question is, do you still play 1.02 JO? Are you completely satisfied with the current JA for the next few months?

I don't, I don't and I'm not. Thus, I am compelled to poke holes in Spider AL's boat. I don't like the man, but that doesn't mean I hate him either. Nor do I go out of my way to attack his person, I merely respond in kind. The Golden Rule and all.

FK | unnamed
10-02-2003, 02:15 AM
it was always "s/o" to me, but I never came from the jk1/df series.

I was a quake 1/2/3 vet for years until JO hooked me.

Kurgan
10-02-2003, 12:44 PM
That I remember. I don't mind, though, as it's pretty clear what you mean by it. The question is, do you still play 1.02 JO? Are you completely satisfied with the current JA for the next few months?

Yes, I'm completely satisfied with JA. The only things I really want to see are MORE of what the game already offers (more siege maps, more ctf maps, more skins, etc).

Sure, one or two tweaks would be nice (like the missing grapple and sound effects in MP, a semi-transparent skin for first person lightsaber and bot routes in Siege), but all in all, the game's just great.

The gameplay doesn't need to be changed in a patch. I've said it before, I'll say it again, a new patch (if it comes out) should increase stability and fix bugs, NOT change gameplay or remove features.

Thus, I am compelled to poke holes in Spider AL's boat.
I don't like the man, but that doesn't mean I hate him either.

You don't know the man, but that's beside the point. You guys can argue until the cows come home for all I care, so long as you keep it in a civilized manner in accordance with the rules and conventions of these forums.

Nor do I go out of my way to attack his person, I merely respond in kind. The Golden Rule and all.

Of course, though I'd like to point out that if one of you breaks the rules, and the other repeats that mistake, you both will get punished, not just "the one who started it."


Raven, WE, the Majority of JA players who visit the LucasArts forums, think there are balance issues with the sabers! Please look into this when you fix the server issues!

This part really gets me. Where does he get off saying the MAJORITY of JA players on LucasArts forums?

First off, these are NOT lucasarts's forums, but rather LucasFORUMS, which is part of LucasFANnetworks, which is a fan-run network of sites (owned by JediKnight.net and MixnMojo.com).

Second, there are over 57,000 (yes, thousand) registered users on these forums. How do you know ALL of them agree with you, based on the posts in one thread (or even the JA forum)?

Just playing JA the other day, it listed over 2 million (yes million) players having logged into the Raven Master Server since release. Now granted, many of those may be repeat visitors but still... how many MORE players are satisfied with the sabers but have not posted their opinion here?

No offense, but it's quite the height of arrogance to assume that the posters in this forum represent anymore than a miniscule fraction of the JA community at large.

Spider AL
10-02-2003, 01:04 PM
Because you're living in the past. Which is exactly what your entire position boils down with. You're so happy with the status quo, it's a wonder you even bothered to buy JA at all. I mean, it could only get worse with improvement right?Hmm. Because premature gameplay patching causes negative side-effects, (due to the fact that any attempt to patch gameplay before its overall makeup is fully understood is ill advised at best) I don't want to see premature patching. You rant on about how I'm living in the past, but the truth is that: subsumed within your knee-jerk reaction to the fact that there are aspects of JA that don't agree with you, you've forgotten how much worse premature patching can make a game. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

You've ranted on a lot about how I'm a hypocrite because on the one hand I know that JA is a separate game from JO, and on the other I use what happened to JO as an example of how bad things can happen to a game... Newsflash for a five-hundredth time: Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I can use what happened (and have done) to tribes as an example of bad premature patching. That doesn't mean I think Tribes and JA are the same game. Your definition of hypocrisy must be as outlandish as your definition of "responding in kind". Maybe you've been listening to too much Alanis Morissette... I hear that can cause similar maladies, like not understanding what sarcasm is.

But I expect too much. Trolls aren't interested in logic, merely in goading people. No matter HOW much you goad me, I'll never ever descend to your level. That's in writing.

Hey, if I wanted to start a flamewar, trust me, you'd be in the middle of a raging inferno right now.Terror grips me. It's obvious that you're trying to start a flamewar. Your posts have been possibly the most petty that these patching-related threads have seen so far. But you won't succeed, that's a certainty.

Look man, I'm sorry your father beat you or whatever, but I'm not here to insult you.

You're not worth my time.Well sheesh, I'm glad you're sorry for my awful childhood. I weep nightly. Grow up. :D If you're not here to insult me, why are you trying to so desperately, and since I'm not worth your time, stop trolling, go order a pizza or something. Try that for logic.

And thanks for the classic trolling quote, btw.

The point is, everyone else refers to it as Saber-Only (S/O or SO), so why can't you?"Everyone"? Wrong again... As for WHY I can't, why would I? I'm not going to suddenly start referring to my computer as "a banana" just because you think it's more trendy. :rolleyes: You fashionable wee tyke, you.

I am compelled to poke holes in Spider AL's boat. I don't like the man, but that doesn't mean I hate him either. Nor do I go out of my way to attack his person, I merely respond in kind. The Golden Rule and all.These holes you're talking about are merely in your head, Ardent. You have no argument to back up, you have no logic, no evidence and no civility. It's painfully obvious that you're desperately trying to make me insult you back. It's not going to work. Once you realise that, I'm sure you'll realise the futility of the attempt and scuttle off.

But the fact of the matter is that what you're engaging in right now is libel.Calling you a troll is so truthful it's practically RELIGIOUS. Look at your own posts. I'm sure you think of yourself as some pro-premature-patching grand crusader... But all you're doing is trolling.

I shouldn't even bother, really. Chances are you're trolling on purpose as opposed to trolling out of some misguided belief. Ah well, I'm a fool for love.

Remember JO v.1.03 Raven, no premature patch for JA! wait a while!

Prime
10-02-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
Are you completely satisfied with the current JA for the next few months? Actually I am, if anyone cares :) I only really play FFA/TFFA and Duels (all forms). I only played once on a Seige server, and in my browser I never see a CTF server. I don't if it just isn't popular or what (does anyone yet know what criteria puts a server in your list)? Personally, I like JA MP more than JO, partially because guns (although still very effective) vs. sabers doesn't seem so completely lopsided, and there doesn't seem to be one particular move than is spammed. Also, contrary to what many others believe, I find each saberstyle useful in it's own way. I've come across good players who use each style, and as an old school single saber fan I have been quite successful, so I don't think they are too imbalanced.

Also, servers that use the g_saberdamagescale cvar to increase the damage seem to be becoming more popular. Many have found 1.5 to 2 to be an excellent setting.

Just my experience.

traj
10-02-2003, 02:01 PM
Premature is a relative term. It's opinion, nothing more.

And most people got this game more than 2 weeks ago, so the "The game has only been out a week" line is inaccurate as well.

Ardent
10-02-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Hmm. Because premature gameplay patching causes negative side-effects, (due to the fact that any attempt to patch gameplay before its overall makeup is fully understood is ill advised at best) I don't want to see premature patching. You rant on about how I'm living in the past, but the truth is that: subsumed within your knee-jerk reaction to the fact that there are aspects of JA that don't agree with you, you've forgotten how much worse premature patching can make a game. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

Circular logic can't build a foundation. Look man, you yap on and on about premature patching but...as traj said, it's a relative term. Think of it like this: I hand you a rock, you can break a window. I hand you a relativistic rock, and you can destroy the world. That's a huge difference. Understand?

You've ranted on a lot about how I'm a hypocrite because on the one hand I know that JA is a separate game from JO, and on the other I use what happened to JO as an example of how bad things can happen to a game... Newsflash for a five-hundredth time: Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I can use what happened (and have done) to tribes as an example of bad premature patching. That doesn't mean I think Tribes and JA are the same game. Your definition of hypocrisy must be as outlandish as your definition of "responding in kind". Maybe you've been listening to too much Alanis Morissette... I hear that can cause similar maladies, like not understanding what sarcasm is.

I haven't engaged in a good diatribe in a while. I'm getting there, though. The fact is, however, you're going back on what you've already said about JA and JO being exclusive in and of each other. But then you're pushing us to "remember" some horrible misdeed done with 1.03 and 1.04. Patches, most of us, still play on/with, despite the rampant (and somehow imbalanced?) nerfage. I hate to break it to you, but when two skilled players go at it, all these "imbalances" are nowhere to be seen. The only thing that matters is the relative skill of the players in the primary mode of offense, be it guns or sabers or kicking. The end.

But I expect too much. Trolls aren't interested in logic, merely in goading people. No matter HOW much you goad me, I'll never ever descend to your level. That's in writing.

I'm not interested in YOUR logic because it's flawed. If you'd dig your head up out of wherever it's stuck and looked around, it'd be pretty clear I don't have problems with accepting logic. Just yours. Maybe the problem isn't with me?

Terror grips me. It's obvious that you're trying to start a flamewar. Your posts have been possibly the most petty that these patching-related threads have seen so far. But you won't succeed, that's a certainty.

As I said, I have much bigger guns. A quick browse of the CTF clan forums would prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not trying to start anything. What I want has already started, and that's the loss of faith in your words by the average reader.

Well sheesh, I'm glad you're sorry for my awful childhood. I weep nightly. Grow up. :D If you're not here to insult me, why are you trying to so desperately, and since I'm not worth your time, stop trolling, go order a pizza or something. Try that for logic.

I did order a pizza, and it was delicious. Thank you.

And thanks for the classic trolling quote, btw.

You're still not worth my time. The average reader building an unbiased opinion, however, certainly is.

"Everyone"? Wrong again... As for WHY I can't, why would I? I'm not going to suddenly start referring to my computer as "a banana" just because you think it's more trendy. :rolleyes: You fashionable wee tyke, you.

Again, I urge you, go look at the current JO ladders. I'm sure rum can link you, he knows where they all are.

These holes you're talking about are merely in your head, Ardent. You have no argument to back up, you have no logic, no evidence and no civility. It's painfully obvious that you're desperately trying to make me insult you back. It's not going to work. Once you realise that, I'm sure you'll realise the futility of the attempt and scuttle off.

If I'm living in a dream world, then you must be living in never-neverland, because my perspective seems to be different. If I wanted you to insult me back (which, by the way, you've tried to do...weakly, however) I'm sure I'd be in emotional pain and would have to attempt to sue your anonymous self for emotional damages totalling the sum of eleventeen million dollars. Or something. As far as my scuttling off...scuttling is what spiders do, so...get to it.

Calling you a troll is so truthful it's practically RELIGIOUS. Look at your own posts. I'm sure you think of yourself as some pro-premature-patching grand crusader... But all you're doing is trolling.

Hey now, Kurgan seems to believe I maintain a level of civility above and beyond that of a troll. I happen to agree. I just represent a viewpoint opposing yours, so you've attempted to label me. Perhaps you're the troll?

I shouldn't even bother, really. Chances are you're trolling on purpose as opposed to trolling out of some misguided belief. Ah well, I'm a fool for love.

There are better places to troll on purpose. Regrettably, you visit none of those places to my knowledge. :'( As far as your being a fool, perhaps so, but not for my love. You may have none.

Remember JO v.1.03 Raven, no premature patch for JA! wait a while!

Remember Raven, don't listen to one person!

Emon
10-02-2003, 03:46 PM
What's premature being relative got to do with anything? I don't think AL's saying, "Raven, wait six months before you make a patch!" I think he's saying that Raven should simply not rush out and patch the game as soon as possible, rather listen to the general public, then make judgements themselves on when and what a patch should be.

It also doesn't help that you're both the Black Knight...

traj
10-02-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Emon
What's premature being relative got to do with anything?

Well, at the end of every post AL makes he says "Raven, we don't want a premature patch!".

The point is, whats premature in AL's eyes is not necessarily premature in other's minds. Alot of people think a patch right now is not premature at all, AL disagrees. I'm just pointing out that it's AL's opinion stating the patch is premature, not a fact.

It also doesn't help that you're both the Black Knight..


uhhhh, ok.

Ardent
10-02-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by traj
uhhhh, ok.

Lost on me too. I think he's trying to imply something about our being dark horses, but that shouldn't matter, as it's clear our POV has just as much, if not more, merit as AL's.

Agen
10-02-2003, 04:55 PM
The point is, whats premature in AL's eyes is not necessarily premature in other's minds. Alot of people think a patch right now is not premature at all, AL disagrees. I'm just pointing out that it's AL's opinion stating the patch is premature, not a fact.
Just as Al says, They prematurely patched jk2 imo to 1.03 and screwed up alot of main gameplay elements. The nature of this community is very obvious by now, WHINING. Of course they are going to whine from the start, until the whiners disappear mostly they should wait till the real complaints come through THEN they patch :) First on the wish list for me would be - Hit Detection and servers showing for the ingame thing.

Vanor
10-02-2003, 04:58 PM
There's a fundemental flaw in addresing balance and gameplay at this stage of JA's life. That is we don't know that there aren't techinal reasons for what people are seeing.

It's equally likely that the issues people have with the behavor of single sabers are due to bugs, as issues with design or balance.

I think it would be a good idea for Raven to go and look at their code, and make sure that all saber types are working as intended. To make sure that the damage that single sabers as well as dual/staff sabers do, is corect for what they intended them to do.

It is also imporant for Raven to make sure hit dections and such are all working properly, which may or may not be the case based on reports by some people elsewhere.

So it's good for people to report their opinions and experances, because it will cause Raven to look and make sure everything is working right.

Only when Raven feels and lets us know, that everything is working as they intended can a serrious and meaningfull discussion about balance take place.

Otherwise you could have a patch that tweaks the single saber damage levels, then a second patch which fixes a bug they didn't know of, which makes single sabers twice as powerfull as intended orginally.

So until a patch that addresses bugs, both known and at this time unknown, asking for changes in balance or design is premature.

Emon
10-02-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by traj
uhhhh, ok.

They're both the Black Knight from Monty Python, neither is going to give up, at least that's how it seems... 'Cause this isn't going anywhere.

C'jais
10-02-2003, 05:35 PM
Something I noticed -

Is it correct that the dual and double sabers are very difficult to parry (IE bash aside) and that they do this very easily to both blue and yellow stance?

I have yet to see the blue and yellow stance parry the new sabers, even though they can deal damage to the wielder.

I know Raven intended the single saber to be inferior to the new dual and double sabers (check Kurgan's interview), but I'd just hate having to rely on red stance as the sole means to combat them.

Spider AL
10-02-2003, 06:15 PM
Emon:

They're both the Black Knight from Monty Python, neither is going to give up, at least that's how it seems... 'Cause this isn't going anywhere.While I'm honoured by the comparison to my favourite character, I must point out that none of Ardent's "assertions" make any sense whatsoever. Hypocrisy? Most odd... So where can a conflict between me and him go, exactly? He won't even debate the points at hand, he just puts his fingers in his ears and attempts to sing-song dissenters to death. I'm certainly not going to say "You're so right!!!111" to such a troll. Thus, he'll continue the endless cycle. Oh well.

Traj:

The point is, whats premature in AL's eyes is not necessarily premature in other's minds.Less than a month after the game's release is premature by any standard. Come now, I know you insist that you know everything there is to know about JA, but games are explored and understood for months after their release. In fact, they never stop being explored. There's ALWAYS more to learn, new strategies to discover. I make it a point to invent a new strategy every day, no matter how feeble. Keeps me on top of the game.

So don't think for one minute that you've plumbed the depths of JA, and don't think for one minute that it's not too early to start fiddling with the game's innards to "improve" it.

Ardent:

Look man, you yap on and on about premature patching but...as traj said, it's a relative term.Heh heh, people like yourself always drag out the "it's all relative so STFU NOOB!!!1" card when they're losing... It's too early by any stretch of the imagination. Less than a month. Only relative in the minds of those who are self-interested.

I haven't engaged in a good diatribe in a while. I'm getting there, though. The fact is, however, you're going back on what you've already said about JA and JO being exclusive in and of each other. But then you're pushing us to "remember" some horrible misdeed done with 1.03 and 1.04. Patches, most of us, still play on/with, despite the rampant (and somehow imbalanced?) nerfage. I hate to break it to you, but when two skilled players go at it, all these "imbalances" are nowhere to be seen. The only thing that matters is the relative skill of the players in the primary mode of offense, be it guns or sabers or kicking. The end.Uh-huh. Either you're confused or I am. And I'm not. To me, that paragraph means very little other than "I think patches are kewl, d00d." Which is fine, you're entitled to an opinion.

If you'd dig your head up out of wherever it's stuck and looked around,And the trolling continues. How mature.

May you live a long and prosperous life, Ardent. That's the best response to such things, I find.

As I said, I have much bigger guns. A quick browse of the CTF clan forums would prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not trying to start anything. What I want has already started, and that's the loss of faith in your words by the average reader.I thought you didn't play with guns? And besides comparing the sizes of our weapons and insisting that I'm losing votes0rz, do you have ANYTHING pertinent to say in this "post" of yours? Let's see... Something about pizzas... Ah, here we are:

Again, I urge you, go look at the current JO ladders. I'm sure rum can link you, he knows where they all are.Aha. I see, you think because you and your current acquaintances have decided in the last year and a half to call your gametype "SO CTF" I should do so as well, despite having played and called it "NG CTF" for nigh on four and a half years now?

Like I say, you're entitled to an opinion... I'm entitled to laugh at it, though. :D

Hey now, Kurgan seems to believe I maintain a level of civility above and beyond that of a troll. I happen to agree. I just represent a viewpoint opposing yours, so you've attempted to label me. Perhaps you're the troll?Oh Kurgan's profession on here is that of a peacemaker, not a righteous avenger unfortunately. You on the other hand... are a troll. Insults, non-veiled, veiled, direct, indirect, your posts are entirely comprised of them. I've turned all your so-called "arguments" into quivering mush through the sheer power of the fact that... they're nonsense, and yet you're still dancing away with nary a backward glance...

Must be a troll. Simple.

There are better places to troll on purpose. Regrettably, you visit none of those places to my knowledge. :'( As far as your being a fool, perhaps so, but not for my love. You may have none.As expected, you're an expert on trolling. And I never said "your love". I was naturally referring to the love of GOD. More reading praccy for you I think!

Remember Raven, don't listen to one person!Ten at the last count in this thread alone... Vun, ah-ah-ah! Two! ah-ah-ah.... Three! ah-ah-ah...

You're still not worth my time.And yet you remain. Trolling. It provides amusement, at the least... And a regular opportunity to say:

Wait a while before listening to players demands Raven! No premature patching! Remember 1.03!

For that I thank you. We were running out of sufficiently rabid NG CTFers.

Vanor
10-02-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
I know Raven intended the single saber to be inferior to the new dual and double sabers (check Kurgan's interview), but I'd just hate having to rely on red stance as the sole means to combat them.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't issues that haven't been addressed yet. The question isn't if the single saber should or shouldn't be inferior, IMO. The question is if it works as they intended it to or not.

It may be, that the single saber was intended to be inferior, but not quite to the point that it currently is. Until there's at least one patch dealing with bugs, there's no way of knowing if what people see is due to design or bug.

edit: nevermind I found it. :)

dibiddilybop
10-02-2003, 06:34 PM
From my (very limited) experience, I think the sabers are very balanced. They play very differently from each other (duh?), but all can be equally devastating if used correctly. However, I'm going to have to do a bunch more playing to form a truly educated opinion about it.

traj
10-02-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
Just as Al says, They prematurely patched jk2 imo to 1.03 and screwed up alot of main gameplay elements. The nature of this community is very obvious by now, WHINING. Of course they are going to whine from the start, until the whiners disappear mostly they should wait till the real complaints come through THEN they patch :)

Yeah, go away you whiners and stop giving RAVEN input about the game. You couldn't possibly know anything about the game after 16 days. Soon we will discover ways to kill FCs and end FF duels. Have patience or if you don't like it, GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME YOU WHINERS!

We don't need your input in the forums. Your complaints aren't real, they are whines.

Emon
10-02-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
And yet you remain.

That's true, you can't ignore that fact...

Ardent
10-02-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
While I'm honoured by the comparison to my favourite character, I must point out that none of Ardent's "assertions" make any sense whatsoever. Hypocrisy? Most odd... So where can a conflict between me and him go, exactly? He won't even debate the points at hand, he just puts his fingers in his ears and attempts to sing-song dissenters to death. I'm certainly not going to say "You're so right!!!111" to such a troll. Thus, he'll continue the endless cycle. Oh well.

You could give up and go buy a pizza. There's no shame in losing. Especially losing honorably. Or something.

Less than a month after the game's release is premature by any standard. Come now, I know you insist that you know everything there is to know about JA, but games are explored and understood for months after their release. In fact, they never stop being explored. There's ALWAYS more to learn, new strategies to discover. I make it a point to invent a new strategy every day, no matter how feeble. Keeps me on top of the game.

Hardly. A lot of games are released WITH a patch the same day. It depends on a lot of things. Namely how buggy the game is. It's fair to say that JA is still pretty buggy.

So don't think for one minute that you've plumbed the depths of JA, and don't think for one minute that it's not too early to start fiddling with the game's innards to "improve" it.

I know all about plumbing the depths, just ask Traj. But the fact that we haven't explored EVERY SINGLE FREAKING POSSIBILITY doesn't mean we can't say something is broken. If I were to smash your leg with a baseball bat, would you like the doctor to sit there counting individual bone pieces and comment on how clean this fracture was and how jagged that one was? I wouldn't, I'd rather he quit stalling, shoot me up with some morphine and get to freaking work.

Heh heh, people like yourself always drag out the "it's all relative so STFU NOOB!!!1" card when they're losing... It's too early by any stretch of the imagination. Less than a month. Only relative in the minds of those who are self-interested.

Fine, I'll use terms you can understand. And I quote: "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Good enough? It's relative because, to be blunt, everything is. This world is built on a foundation of math and art, all of which is relative to some arbitrary point someone created when these two things first came into existence. SOrry, it's not a card, it's the truth.

Uh-huh. Either you're confused or I am. And I'm not. To me, that paragraph means very little other than "I think patches are kewl, d00d." Which is fine, you're entitled to an opinion.

I think you're the one who is confused. Seriously...look at the first two sentances. First you don't know, then you say you know, but how do we know you're not just copping out?

May you live a long and prosperous life, Ardent. That's the best response to such things, I find.

Fair enough, but I don't wish something like 5 years of bedsores and constant pain on anyone.

I thought you didn't play with guns? And besides comparing the sizes of our weapons and insisting that I'm losing votes0rz, do you have ANYTHING pertinent to say in this "post" of yours?

Actually, I don't believe I ever said I don't play with guns. I just prefer SO. Guns are something that can be had in any game.

EDITOR'S NOTE: Sentance snipped for trolling.

Aha. I see, you think because you and your current acquaintances have decided in the last year and a half to call your gametype "SO CTF" I should do so as well, despite having played and called it "NG CTF" for nigh on four and a half years now?

Because it's common decency. If you started talking about, oh I dunno, your car, wouldn't I be a dumbass if I started calling it a mobile vehicular device? I think so. So, corellate.

Like I say, you're entitled to an opinion... I'm entitled to laugh at it, though. :D

I'm entitled to kick you in the gonads if I'm willing to do the time for Assault & Battery. But you don't see me exercising that right, do you?

Oh Kurgan's profession on here is that of a peacemaker, not a righteous avenger unfortunately. You on the other hand... are a troll. Insults, non-veiled, veiled, direct, indirect, your posts are entirely comprised of them. I've turned all your so-called "arguments" into quivering mush through the sheer power of the fact that... they're nonsense, and yet you're still dancing away with nary a backward glance...

Must be a troll. Simple.

You've done what now? ****, I didn't notice that. Nor, do I think, has anyone else who agrees that perspectives are relative and yours is in the toilet.

As far as being a troll...I'll admit it if you will. ^-^

As expected, you're an expert on trolling. And I never said "your love". I was naturally referring to the love of GOD. More reading praccy for you I think!

Indeed I am. That's because I'm active on nearly half a dozen political debate forums. I see trolls all the time. REAL trolls. Ones with little or nothing to contribute to the debate except a few direct insults at someone because they're of this party or that. Libertarian is probably the most commonly slung insult. :/

Ten at the last count in this thread alone... Vun, ah-ah-ah! Two! ah-ah-ah.... Three! ah-ah-ah...

I count one and...um...a couple of people who are still sitting on the fence. You sure you passed arithmetic?

And yet you remain. Trolling. It provides amusement, at the least... And a regular opportunity to say:

Wait a while before listening to players demands Raven! No premature patching! Remember 1.03!

Thanks for the prompt.

Raven, don't listen to someone tied to their desk!

For that I thank you. We were running out of sufficiently rabid NG CTFers.

Hey no problem. You might want to have that frothing at the edges of your mouth looked into, though. Rabid fanboy-ism is a serious affliction.

FK | unnamed
10-02-2003, 07:19 PM
It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game.

I've seen this before somewhere...

Hmmm...

Oh yeah, back in 1999 when that episode 1 move with a 9 year old boy running around going "yippee!" was sold to fans as being part of the star wars saga.

I remember watching them trying to defend it and convince themselves that it was a good movie.

They were such die hard star wars fans that they simply could not just say "holy **** that sucked", so they looked for the tiniest little details to try to convince themselves it was not a crappy flick.

"The Darth Maul fight scene kicked ass!"

Sure did, but what about the other 2+ hours?

"Ummm.... uhh... DARTH MAUL RULES!"

I mean I know there are a lot of casual players who do not really get that deep into the game play to notice the flaws, but I know some of you do see them but are so dead set against agreeing with us that you will never admit it.

Either that or your hopes were set so high and you are just scrambling to try and find anything to cling to that offsets the disappointment.

Granted some would call that living in denial, but…




I mean no joke, you guys really do sound like the battered woman defending the trailer trash husband who just beat the hell out of her on an episode of “Cops”.

I’m not hearing things like:

“Man this hit detection is dead on!”

or

“God I just love the way you can’t grip people and hold them behind things!”

or

“Holy ****! The specials cost 25 force? Kick ass!!!”


What I do see is:

“Maybe it’s lag”

“It’s a different game”

“Well they changed it for a reason”

Prime
10-02-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game. So because I genuinely do really enjoy JA, I must be lying to myself and everyone else? Is it impossible that I could find JA to be a fun and satisfying game?

It is also sad that some people's lives fall to pieces when a video game feature X or Y isn't quite right.

I don't care if you don't like it, but don't tell me I can't like it either.

Vanor
10-02-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game.

Some people are genually happy with how JA plays. Does that make their opinion invalid, because it isn't the same opinion you have?

“Holy ****! The specials cost 25 force? Kick ass!!!”

I personally do think that's a great feature. It keeps people from spaming the special moves, and forces people to give a little thought to what they are doing and when they can do it.

“Well they changed it for a reason”

Well maybe JA works exactly as Raven intended it to work. Just because it doesn't play the way you want it to, doesn't mean the design is invalid, just that it doesn't work for you. That doesn't mean there aren't bugs that need to be addressed. But it is possable that JA plays more or less like Raven intended it to.

But just for the heck of it, I thought I'd sum up all the opinions provided here in this thread, without all the meaningless text.

One group, who feel that the game has ballance issues that need to be dealt with soon.

One group, who feel that 2 or even 3 weeks is simply not enough time to know if game play design and balance needs to be changed. Not that it shouldn't be changed, but right now is too soon.

Then one group who feel that the game is basicly good as is, but that there are some bugs still in the game that should be adressed.

dibiddilybop
10-02-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Vanor
Then one group who feel that the game is basicly good as is, but that there are some bugs still in the game that should be adressed.

I guess I'm part of this group. I'm having a lot of fun with the game and think, for the most part, it's great. Some bugs, but nothing show stopping. Sorry you don't think so FK. Guess this just isn't the game for you.

traj
10-02-2003, 08:11 PM
Guess not. Everything seems to be hunky dory.

Spider AL
10-02-2003, 10:13 PM
Ardent:

There's no shame in losing.Then you need feel no shame.

Hardly. A lot of games are released WITH a patch the same day. It depends on a lot of things. Namely how buggy the game is. It's fair to say that JA is still pretty buggy.Bugfixes? Who's been talking about bugfixes? I think everyone agrees that bugfixes are truly acceptable.

Gameplay modifications though? Not this early. It's that simple, to be honest.

But the fact that we haven't explored EVERY SINGLE FREAKING POSSIBILITY doesn't mean we can't say something is broken.Yes, it really does. Until I've made sure that I've explored every possibility, and that I UNDERSTAND how my ideas would affect the entire community, I simply won't publish them. Naturally, I expect the same level of maturity from other people. You can't declare something is broken until you're sure you're just not using it wrong.

It's relative because, to be blunt, everything is. This world is built on a foundation of Yes, everything's relative, and the sky isn't blue, it's green because that's relative too dont'cha know. Of course everything isn't relative, not to a realist. An experientialist. So how early is too early for gameplay patching? Five minutes after the game's released is too early. That's obvious. What about a day? Yep. A week? Obviously. Two weeks? Yes. A month? Yes. Two months? THEN it's a matter of opinion. THEN we can debate what month to draw the line at. But today? Too early.

I think you're the one who is confused.Ah ah! Already informed you that I'm not the one who's confused. I think you must be confused...

Fair enough, but I don't wish something like 5 years of bedsores and constant pain on anyone.Lies, you're inflicting the pain that comes with too much hilarity on me at the moment.

Because it's common decency. If you started talking about, oh I dunno, your car, wouldn't I be a dumbass if I started calling it a mobile vehicular device? I think so. So, corellate.It's common decency to change my language to accomodate comparative newcomers to the gametype? Heh, I think not somehow. This is yet another example of your debating style.

No, the analogy is that I was calling it a "car" in 1998, and now you pop up and demand that I call it a "mobile vehicular device". Which of course is silly.

I'm entitled to kick you in the gonads if I'm willing to do the time for Assault & Battery. But you don't see me exercising that right, do you?Hee hee! Finally what I've been waiting for... a nod to the old troll staple: "I AM A HAERD MAN DONT MESS WIT MEH!!!1 I KICK J00 INNA GONADS0rzZZ!!!!1"

Besides, I don't think you're legally entitled to commit a crime, even if you're aware of and willing to endure the punishment. Hence the concept of crime and the punishment for doing what you have no right to do, or what infringes the rights of others.

You've done what now? ****, I didn't notice thatLike your brethren, you're wilfully blind. I've explained at length that your assertions of hypocrisy on my part are baseless, and provably so. I've pointed out the many times you've trolled and insulted... I win this "debate" if you can call it that, to be honest. The fellow who lies knocked out can delude himself that he won the fight all he wants, as you do. Doesn't make it so.

I'm active on nearly half a dozen political debate forums. I see trolls all the time. REAL trolls. Ones with little or nothing to contribute to the debate except a few direct insults at someone because they're of this party or that.A troll is one who seeks conflict, and attempts to engender it. You are such a one. It is that simple. It is one thing that is impossible to debate. The fact that you have failed to goad me into responding in kind makes you no less of a troll, merely an ineffective troll.

As far as being a troll...I'll admit it if you will. ^-^Ah, I admit that you're a troll! Now you can admit that you're a troll too.

I count one and...um...a couple of people who are still sitting on the fence. You sure you passed arithmetic?Whoops! Watch your PR there my friend, you've just alienated ten people by showing that you've ignored them! :D

Raven, don't listen to someone tied to their desk!That's right Raven! Listen to someone who's stapled to their desk.

This staple-victim and many others in this thread alone, on these forums and on your own forums, say no to premature patching!

Hey no problem. You might want to have that frothing at the edges of your mouth looked into, though. Rabid fanboy-ism is a serious affliction.I sense a pattern emerging here... Your accusations aren't very original are they... Let us review...

THE STORY SO FAR (en bref):

Spider AL: No premature gameplay patching of JA! Remember what happened to JO v1.03!

Ardent: Hypocrite!

Spider AL: What? Where did you get that?

Ardent: I WIN!

Spider AL: Omg, you're a troll.

Ardent: Maybe you're a troll.

Spider AL: ...

Ad infinitum...

***

Unnamed:

I mean no joke, you guys really do sound like the battered woman defending the trailer trash husband who just beat the hell out of her on an episode of “Cops”.Uhh hey man, calm down. It's a game, not an abusive husband... Even if we were all wrong, which we ain't, it wouldn't be THAT big of a deal.

Perhaps the reason you guys desperately want a patch is because of the hopes you had for this game specifically. That's not a bad thing, but I feel compelled to tell you what you already know: Hope is one thing, but don't let hope lead to unrealistic expectations.

It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game.Well umm... I enjoy it?

Don't hit me. :(

:D

Emon
10-02-2003, 10:28 PM
On the point of other games getting patched the same day... Yes, that is true. C&C Generals had many bug fixes a few days after it came out, mostly critical communications problems between games in MP.

And, just because a game has patches the same day, doesn't necessarily make it good. Enter the Matrix got several patches very early, and hey, it still sucks...

Spider AL
10-02-2003, 10:29 PM
Werd Emon. Also notable that bugfixes are entirely separate from gameplay alterations.

Rumor
10-02-2003, 11:57 PM
delving into the internet catchphrases, i see.

Aragorn327
10-03-2003, 12:19 AM
Personally, I think there are several game imbalances.

However, these should not be fixed yet.

If any patches come out soon, they should be for real bugs.

Alot of my friends haven't gotten the game yet, while I got it the first day. Over the next few weeks, more people will buy the game, and more testing can occur. I think dual sabers need to be nerfed at some point and some other things switched around, but, not right at this moment. Eventually, certainly, but, give it about a month.

boinga1
10-03-2003, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Aragorn327
Personally, I think there are several game imbalances.

However, these should not be fixed yet.

If any patches come out soon, they should be for real bugs.


Amen.

traj
10-03-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by Big Spider Al
The fellow who lies knocked out can delude himself that he won the fight all he wants, as you do. Doesn't make it so.

Anyone know where AL can buy a mirror?

Emon
10-03-2003, 12:48 AM
From what I've read, AL has at least backed up his opinions with some real evidence, Ardent seems to just bash it into the ground every time without really reading it...

DungeonShade
10-03-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by boinga1
[puts on flame-retardant suit]


Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.
My feelings exactly. I've run into a few annoying things but I'll learn how to counter them. No sense rushing a patch for 1 thing when it might screw up 3 anyway.

Kurgan
10-03-2003, 01:13 AM
I genuinely like the game. Is that so wrong?

Oh I get it now... a rational person cannot like JA.

Is this a fair assesment of the argument?


There must be a reason for their defending it other than they like the game.

They must be a n00b (compared to what... people who warezed the game two weeks before release and played the illegal beta?).

They must have sucked at JK2. They couldn't possibly enjoy a game that is different from JK2 right?

They must be a Star Wars fanboy (like your Episode I example, unnamed) defending it just because its Star Wars and not because they like it.

They must be some kind of purist (who only likes to duel and pretend to be Darth Maul or something).

They must be a bad player (compared to what?).



Okay, let me attempt to use those arguments against myself and see how they pan out!


They must be a n00b (compared to what... people who warezed the game two weeks before release and played the illegal beta?).

Yes, I am a n00b, I freely admit that. I got my legal copy of JA on September 17, 2003. Prior to that I had never set foot in JA multiplayer. I have yet to master the game, even though I play it nearly every day, sometimes so long I lose track of time.


They must have sucked at JK2. They couldn't possibly enjoy a game that is different from JK2 right?

I played JK2 as much as I play JA now, I was a "n00b" when I got the game on release day, but I eventually learned how to play and became a decent player. I never won any tournaments against any elite clans, but then I never entered any. Whenever a patch was released, I adjusted my playing style to compensate for the changes that each one introduced. Now that JA is out I'm adjusting to the changes it has over JK2 1.04.

So no, I didn't "suck" at JK2, and I don't "suck" at JA (I'm still learning, but I'm not clueless either). Frankly I think people who have declared themselves masters already just have big egos. Is "owning hoards of n00bs" what makes you a master? And from what I hear, a lot of "elites" from JK2 seem to be spending more time arguing over what's wrong with JA than actually playing competitively...


They must be a Star Wars fanboy (like your Episode I example, unnamed) defending it just because its Star Wars and not because they like it.


The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were inferior to the original trilogy of films. I preferred Attack of the Clones, but I thought the "romance" was sappy and painful to watch, Jar Jar was annoying and overdone in TPM. I enjoyed them, but I recognized their flaws right away and didn't hesitate to point them out.

Dark Forces had no multiplayer.

Masters of Teras Kesaii was rather mediocre.

Jedi Power Battles SUCKED, period, even though the DC version was a vast improvement over the unplayable PSX version.

Star Wars Demolition never caught my interest.

Force Commander was nothing special.

Battle For Naboo and Rogue Squadron were fun, but simple and had dated graphics (they were console ports after all).

Jedi Knight was a great game but had no dedicated server support and no bots, plus cheating was a big problem.

Mysteries of the Sith had low quality sound effects and cutscenes and it had a few MP bugs that were annoying.

JK2 didn't have a lot of features I had come to enjoy in JK1/MotS and it was much slower gameplay wise. The Single Player campaign was frustrating in places and the guns combat was rather badly done (SP again).

JA doesn't have a First Person Lightsaber transparent skin, no bot routes in Siege, some missing sound effects in MP and a few missing moves and the SP campaign is somewhat easy with few story options (although an improvement over JK2).

So nope, I can see flaws in Star Wars products and freely admit that. I don't like everything that has the Star Wars name on it. I think most of the EU is mediocre crap that's just put out to rack up money off fans. Most of it is inferior to the canon material, although I do enjoy some of it, and this includes the Dark Forces series (or I wouldn't be wasting my time here).

I have played a lot of Star Wars games, most of them in fact, but I have only genuinely liked a few. I have also read a lot of Star Wars books and comics (well it was considered a lot about 5 years ago), but only liked a few.

And just so you know, I played Quake3 when it came out, but I got bored with it fast. I much preferred Unreal Tournament and played that a lot more. I got into online gaming with Jedi Knight, which just happened to come out when I went to university and finally had a cheap and fast internet connection. I'd played FPS games before of course (starting with Wolfenstein 3D) but never online, except for the one or two times my brother and I hooked up our two phone lines to play Doom2 1v1. ; )

But I digress...


They must be some kind of purist (who only likes to duel and pretend to be Darth Maul or something).

They must be a bad player (compared to what?).


I play Dueling the least of all game modes (except maybe Team FFA). I much prefer a good game of CTF or Siege. I use single, dual and saberstaff sabers, depending on my mode and the situation. I prefer Full Force rather than No-Force. I hate "honor codes" and refused to play JediMod and the admin mods in JK2.

I laugh at people who say "Jedi don't use guns!" or other such nonesense.

Nope, not a purist.


Maybe that was a strawman argument, but it felt good. I think its plain to see that a person CAN LIKE JA FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THEY LIKE IT, and not because they're stupid or a "n00b" or something like that.

This reminds me of hearing about Tribes, a game I never played (but still need to someday). People who liked the first 1 seem always to hate the sequel and vice versa. I don't know why, but that seems to be the consensus of people I've talked to. Maybe its the same way here, but let people have their opinions, dangit!

I think a lot of the tendency to bash JA comes from people wanting or expecting JA to be a patch or expansion for JK2 rather than a new game. They see it as "nerfing" all the stuff they liked and turning it into a "n00b's paradise." They assume that the game can't possibly be more fun or have more features or be better for editing or anything else that might make it a better game. They can't seem to grasp that change isn't always bad.

JK2 is still the same game it was when 1.04 was released. JA is different.

It's like when Quake2 came out. It was different than Quake1. Some people hated it and went back to Quake1, but many more people accepted it and went with it. It's all personal preference. Its like with movies... some people hate sequels, because it doesn't "capture the magic of the original." While other people eat them up. And sometimes people like a sequel better than the original...

Emon
10-03-2003, 01:27 AM
ZING.

Ardent
10-03-2003, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Emon
From what I've read, AL has at least backed up his opinions with some real evidence, Ardent seems to just bash it into the ground every time without really reading it...

What's the point of reading when you already know the sum of the post? I can pick at it bit by bit and amuse myself rather than wasting time reading another bore-a-thon about how much he hates Raven for 1.03.

As was said on the FK boards when linked here: I can't believe there are so many whiny 1.02ers left! To be frank, it shocks me as well. I mean, we're well aware there are some diehard 1.03ers left, but it's kind of shocking to think 1.02ers are still hating on Raven for 1.03.

In fact, I'm so disenfranchised with AL's circular logic I'll reply to his last bore-a-thon with a simple: nice bit of hypocrisy there, hypocrite.

A patch is a patch is a patch. If you're going to patch for bugs (and there are many), you're INEVITABLY GOING TO PATCH FOR GAMEPLAY. Because some exploits ARE bugs. The end.

I think, in summary, my points have been proven ad nauseum. But I will continue to prove them until this thread is closed. <3 SO do us a favor Kurgan, close it. My point is proven, and AL got to spam his manifesto every other post.

Emon
10-03-2003, 03:09 AM
If I recall, somewhere up there you called AL a fanboy, now you're saying he hates Raven? You're not making much sense to me.


A patch is a patch is a patch. If you're going to patch for bugs (and there are many), you're INEVITABLY GOING TO PATCH FOR GAMEPLAY. Because some exploits ARE bugs. The end.


...yeah, and all AL is saying, is that Raven shouldn't run out and go, "omg whiners lets patch", but rather take their time examining the problems and fixing them. So I don't get what you are even going on about. Unless you're just debating to protect your ego.

Ardent
10-03-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by Emon
If I recall, somewhere up there you called AL a fanboy, now you're saying he hates Raven? You're not making much sense to me.

When someone says fanboy in a SW-related forum, it usually defaults to Star Wars fanboy. Sorry for any confusion.

...yeah, and all AL is saying, is that Raven shouldn't run out and go, "omg whiners lets patch", but rather take their time examining the problems and fixing them. So I don't get what you are even going on about. Unless you're just debating to protect your ego.

Goes to motivation, Your Honor.

You guys need to get your story straight. Until then, it'll just be AL spamming his manifesto and you trying vainly to usurp my position as the most id-tastic (as opposed to ego-riffic). It was a good fight while it lasted, but you really don't have firm ground to stand on so far as logic is concerned. If there are problems, they ought to be addressed as soon as possible. Lolly-gagging around on the off chance you discover something is pretty silly when it can just be corrected with a later patch because it's now a bug and needs to be patched.

So WHILE THEY'RE AT IT why not add something simple like a few cvars? Okay, gg.

Emon
10-03-2003, 03:31 AM
I think you are still missing the point. When I see, "No premature patches!" I see "No patches before the proper time", because that's exactly what it means. He isn't saying there aren't issues, or that they shouldn't be addressed as soon as possible, but that Raven should merely take their time, and not rush the patches out the door just to satisfy some player who is upset that a video game doesn't meet his expectations of perfection.

FK | unnamed
10-03-2003, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Emon
From what I've read, AL has at least backed up his opinions with some real evidence, Ardent seems to just bash it into the ground every time without really reading it...

I did the same thing, and I got the same treatment...

But from Al and a few others.



People said things like:

"It's a totally new game and nothing is the same."


I said:


Nope, here is a detailed list of all the swings that are identical.

Here is a detailed list of all the powers that function identically.

Here is a list of this, of that, etc.

I backed up the statements I made with detailed fact and begged, if not dared people to prove my statements wrong.

None could.

But instead of saying "you're right, with the exception of damage scales the single saber is damn near identical and with the exception of a few tweaks, every one of those force powers you listed are identical"...

I got:

"Give it time!"

"Learn the game!"

"Stop whining!"

"Blah blah I can't dispute those specific details with fact so I'll generalize and make erroneous statements but I'll do so in a way that shifts the focus off the subject and onto a more general topic like "stop whining".

Sorry if we have someone who is now returning the favor.

Ardent
10-03-2003, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
Sorry if we have someone who is now returning the favor.

Doesn't mean they can't whine about it. They just need to stop doing it in this thread. >< Make a thread about how much you hate how good I am at "teh block." Because that's what you claim I'm doing: making "teh block." I disagree, I think I won this argument logically, although I may not have done it "honourably." However, your definitions of "honour" probably vary drastically from my own as mine's built on a foundation of relativism rather than "realism." Not that realism is anything more than a relative direction of thought. Effectively, I give about as much respect to your definition of "honour" as I do two piles of doggy-bag filler on a cold December night: I might warm my hands on it if I have nowhere else to go.

I don't hate, nor do I personally disrespect any of you. I just think it's pretty clear to a non-biased observer that I'm in the right here. My work here is done, so I will continue to put the brakes on any "argument" made contrary to mine until the thread is closed. It's not trolling, it's "maintenance of the win" as Traj would say. As I've said, gf and gg.

Gabrobot
10-03-2003, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
I did the same thing, and I got the same treatment...

But from Al and a few others.



People said things like:

"It's a totally new game and nothing is the same."


I said:


Nope, here is a detailed list of all the swings that are identical.

Here is a detailed list of all the powers that function identically.

Here is a list of this, of that, etc.

I backed up the statements I made with detailed fact and begged, if not dared people to prove my statements wrong.

None could.

But instead of saying "you're right, with the exception of damage scales the single saber is damn near identical and with the exception of a few tweaks, every one of those force powers you listed are identical"...

I got:

"Give it time!"

"Learn the game!"

"Stop whining!"

"Blah blah I can't dispute those specific details with fact so I'll generalize and make erroneous statements but I'll do so in a way that shifts the focus off the subject and onto a more general topic like "stop whining".

Sorry if we have someone who is now returning the favor.

The point about it being a new game is that it is not a JKII patch and so it never "nerfed" or "broke" anything. It should considered a new game, and since there are new additions (by at least a factor of two, when looking at the sabers), there are new tactics which were not in JKII. It doesn't take an "expert" to figure this out.

And as Emon said:
[Spider Al] isn't saying there aren't issues, or that they shouldn't be addressed as soon as possible, but that Raven should merely take their time, and not rush the patches out the door just to satisfy some player who is upset that a video game doesn't meet his expectations of perfection.

FK | unnamed
10-03-2003, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Prime
So because I genuinely do really enjoy JA, I must be lying to myself and everyone else? Is it impossible that I could find JA to be a fun and satisfying game?

It is also sad that some people's lives fall to pieces when a video game feature X or Y isn't quite right.

I don't care if you don't like it, but don't tell me I can't like it either.


No offense but some of you "casual players" really seem to have some issues with thinking everything is directed towards you.

Prime, Kurgan, whoever, I really am glad you guys enjoy this game.


Get ready this is going to be a shock (no joke):


I do not want a game that has such an insanely high learning curve like Jedi Outcast did.

*gasp

Did I just say that?

Yep.

Here is why:

In JO, you had the "elite" and you had the "people who got the crap beat out of them".

There was no middle ground like there is in almost every other FPS.

This has mostly to do with the game play (as far as saber stuff goes) being much more complex than "point mouse, click mouse1".

JO was a game that you simply had to invest time in to be any good at it.

I have enough experience in FPS's to pretty much pick up any new game and do damn good the first time I play it.

I am sure many of you are like this too.

But in a different environment like JO, you simply had to invest a lot of time learning the differences and a lot of casual gamers did not have the desire or time to do that.

I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but this was also the source of a lot of frustration from that part of this community.

No one wants to play a game where they get murdered and massacred constantly.

And that was what was happening to a lot of people who could or did not invest the time to learn the game.

Hence the "kick spammers", "back stab whores", etc. comments were born out of that frustration.

That frustration on the part of the casual gamer, not us is why those two patches existed.

It was not people like myself, Ardent, the [div3rse] guys or traj who were being slaughtered by back stabs.

It was "your side" of the community, and your side who brought those patches, not us.



Now how this brings me to my initial statement is I do feel a lot of the "flashy eye candy" should stay in the game.

Why?
Because you guys like it.

You guys love the way the Kata's look?
Love the butterfly moves?

Great, have fun and enjoy.

I don't want to drive the casual JA fan away; I want this community to grow as big as it can.

But you have to keep in mind that the casual gamer is only a %.

There are a large number of people in any game, not just this one, who are what you call "hard core gamers".

For us the complexity and speed and in depth game play is what we crave.

To try and drive us out just because you are now happy, is just as bad as me saying "Well you all suck so you don't deserve to play a game like this, go play the Sims you noobs and stay out of JO/JA, you don't belong"


Why then are we frustrated with this game?

Simple, it lacks depth.

A base JA server really is a "safe environment" when compared to JO.

In base JO I could go into a server with a dozen people and even if they all came after me at once, I utterly destroyed them and it was not even funny how badly they got beat down.

Hell, you all have seen some of the demos I posted in the past, and that was when I was goofing around and not even really trying to rack up kills.


In JA, I'm not saying I can't go in and rack up a zillion kills in a FFA, but the "one man wrecking crew" days are long gone.

There is simply not enough depth in the game play, for a player who wants to invest a lot of time developing a monster game with this present version.

Now I really am glad you guys can run around doing whatever it is you do when you play but the fact remains there is a very large portion of *customers who do want to invest time in the game play and do want something much more complex and faster paced that what this toned down version of JO has given us.


Hence the reason we asked for *cvars.

You guys get your world the way you want it.

We get ours the way we want it.


Just as much as you guys don't want to go to servers where people are ptk-ing and gk-ing the living hell out of each other, we have no desire to limit our game play to just running around mashing mouse1 and seeing who can do the most butterfly’s.

Ardent
10-03-2003, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
Just as much as you guys don't want to go to servers where people are ptk-ing and gk-ing the living hell out of each other, we have no desire to limit our game play to running mashing mouse1 and seeing who can do the most butterfly’s.

<---- FBS whore

gg :)

Gabrobot
10-03-2003, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
Doesn't mean they can't whine about it. They just need to stop doing it in this thread. >< Make a thread about how much you hate how good I am at "teh block." Because that's what you claim I'm doing: making "teh block." I disagree, I think I won this argument logically, although I may not have done it "honourably." However, your definitions of "honour" probably vary drastically from my own as mine's built on a foundation of relativism rather than "realism." Not that realism is anything more than a relative direction of thought. Effectively, I give about as much respect to your definition of "honour" as I do two piles of doggy-bag filler on a cold December night: I might warm my hands on it if I have nowhere else to go.

I don't hate, nor do I personally disrespect any of you. I just think it's pretty clear to a non-biased observer that I'm in the right here. My work here is done, so I will continue to put the brakes on any "argument" made contrary to mine until the thread is closed. It's not trolling, it's "maintenance of the win" as Traj would say. As I've said, gf and gg.

I don't agree...you seem very confused in your direct replies to Spider Al's points...you seem to be focus the attention of the debate off of the main issue (which you have never answered with a logical answer...you've gone half way with your "relative" point, but you didn't fully address the fact that just because there are different opinions on what is an acceptable amount of time to pass before gameplay should be tweaked, doesn't mean that it is not logical to say that a certain amount of time is acceptable and anything less is not.

As it has been pointed out, patching a game, a day after its release, which changes gameplay, is not acceptable. It is physically impossible to know everything there is to know about the strategy of a game, with as many new moves as JA has, in a single day. To best understand what needs tweaking, Raven should wait at least a couple months, so that people can have a fuller knowledge of the different strategies in JA. By the time, as well, Raven can have patched technical issues which may have warped the balance of the game, as Vanor said.

Ardent
10-03-2003, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
I don't agree...you seem very confused in your direct replies to Spider Al's points...you seem to be focus the attention of the debate off of the main issue (which you have never answered with a logical answer...you've gone half way with your "relative" point, but you didn't fully address the fact that just because there are different opinions on what is an acceptable amount of time to pass before gameplay should be tweaked, doesn't mean that it is not logical to say that a certain amount of time is acceptable and anything less is not.

I'm not the one who's confused here. Especially when we're talking about logic.

As it has been pointed out, patching a game, a day after its release, which changes gameplay, is not acceptable. It is physically impossible to know everything there is to know about the strategy of a game, with as many new moves as JA has, in a single day. To best understand what needs tweaking, Raven should wait at least a couple months, so that people can have a fuller knowledge of the different strategies in JA. By the time, as well, Raven can have patched technical issues which may have warped the balance of the game, as Vanor said.

If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY. If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is), then it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. If that means a patch to download the same day you get the game, then I will download that patch.

Look, I'll equate this again (and again and again until Kurgan obliges and closes the thread): if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened? I would. That's the end of it. The end. There's nothing more to it. If you keep thinking about it, sooner or later you're going to hit the point where your logic comes around to slap you in the face, because it's circular logic. My logic is linear. And further to the point, proven effective. Again, gf and gg.

Gabrobot
10-03-2003, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
I'm not the one who's confused here. Especially when we're talking about logic.



If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY. If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is), then it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. If that means a patch to download the same day you get the game, then I will download that patch.

Look, I'll equate this again (and again and again until Kurgan obliges and closes the thread): if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened? I would. That's the end of it. The end. There's nothing more to it. If you keep thinking about it, sooner or later you're going to hit the point where your logic comes around to slap you in the face, because it's circular logic. My logic is linear. And further to the point, proven effective. Again, gf and gg.

You're example applies when a game has a technical bug...this is a gameplay bug, and the game is playable and it seems that a great many people don't find a problem with it. Some people don't like how certain things work, but they aren't the ones who should be deciding what should be in a patch. They can tell Raven about it, but from there, Raven is the one who should determine whether they should do anything about it, and if so, what they should do.

As far as I can see, Raven isn't the one who has "deemed" that there is a gameplay problem with JA...you are the one who has deemed that. Who the heck are you to tell them what their job is? You're NOBODY. :p

I think that you're just afraid that you might actually be wrong in your conclusion about JA's gameplay, so you feel you have to tell them what to do...remember, Raven has been making games for at least ten years...they are not new to this, and I think I'd rather trust them, then trust you.

GreenSmoke
10-03-2003, 06:53 AM
as to what ujama was talking about wrt the learning curve, i can tell you guys right away where tffa is going to end - who can use lightning/drain/energize in the most efficient combination. think about it and you should easily come to the same conclusion. the point we are making is not that ja is different from jo. the point we ARE making is that ja does not give the s/o ff player ANY viable and reliable offensive capability. this is not limited to ctf. or duel. it affects everything. a game where you can heal with impunity as long as you keep yourself on the winning side of force parity, and there is NO way to deal a continuous stream of damage in a reliable manner, is a game that depends not on technical skill, but purely in resource management and attrition.

all ff s/o players will remember clearly that there was a distinct separation in the methods of defense and offense in jo. while defense was pretty tedious, consisting mainly of a force management game, it could always be overridden by offense completely different in nature, by which i mean technical, skillful, and tactical. you could learn the main points of drain game in an hour. i don't think there's a single player in jo that can say that they developed the perfect offensive game. why? because it was infinitely difficult and thus, infinitely improveable. a common advice to new ff s/o players, which was given to me when i was still a "drain newbie": to be able to SURVIVE was easy, because all you needed to know was force management, but to be able to KILL was infinitely harder, because of the technical and exacting nature of a capable offense. but ja is different. the defense of force management is the same, and now, with all tactical offensive capability taken out, we can only turn to pure force management on both offense and defense.

the above refers to duel, but the same can be said for ctf, tffa, etc. in ctf, the defense was simple: run. the offense was of the same nature as duel: technical and tactical. in tffa, the defense was simple: drain and energize. the offense was almost identical to that of duel.

THIS is the problem, and it has not yet fully manifested itself, but it's clear, at least to me, that the symptoms complained of right NOW are not the what's important as much as what they tell of things to come:

1) competetive play MEANS that players and teams will use the tactics and strategy that maximize their win/loss ratio
2) as mentioned above, the overriding factor in this game (for ff s/o) is defense through maintanence of force parity
3) while not a problem in and of itself, as the case was similar in jo, this time we are given NO effective tactical means of overriding the defensive capabilities, as all the continuous damage attacks have been removed from the game
4) then, competetive players will have NO other reasonable choice but to use the most effective strategy - to utilize the most powerful factor in this game, force attrition, as their means of both defense AND attack
5) where does this leave the competetive community? obviously, there is going to be 1 winner and 1 loser in every game, but whereas in jo a player could override any defense of force parity by technical skill coupled with smart tactics, the only way to fight force management in ja is with better force management. note that i'm not talking about flailing saberists, but the competetive player, who is assumed to always aim for the most efficient way to win. honestly, you can strafe around all day and not get sabered once, while attacking with lightning/throw at no risk. this is what will happen.
6) take all of this together and the result is obvious: yes, all you people that say we can find new ways of winning, etc., you're right - but that new way of winning will NOT have the balance of strategic force management defense against technical skill and tactics for offense, but will be pure force management on both sides - the learning curve is nil, the gameplay is tedious, and NO competetive player wants to put time into a game in these conditions: THAT'S the complaint and if Raven ignores the competetive community for too long, it will lose that community for the remainder of ja, destroying the game's potential for longevity. i don't think there is a single player that will stick around this game for a year, or even more than a few months, if there is no hope for improvement beyond a certain low plateau.

SuperNub
10-03-2003, 08:08 AM
Hence the "kick spammers", "back stab whores"

:D ..1.03, still the best patch ever.

C'jais
10-03-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is)

I'd rather not trust you. Saying it's "flawed" or "broken" means nothing in reality. It's gameplay, pure and simple - people are playing the game and having fun, and some are not. Because you don't find it fun does not mean everyone is of the same opinion.

if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened?

Hehe, strawman yet again. This "flawed gameplay" is not an isolated case as the vehicle belt strap is, so the analogy is useless.

Releasing a patch would mean changes to the whole game, no matter if it's only cvar's. People are going to use those cvar's, and for some, it's going to ruin the game for them. It's going to render the staff less effective as it currently has the only way to kick included. This is not what Raven wants, it's that obvious. They'd have to delete or edit those animations, just to please a small amount of players, and I don't think they'd want to do that.

Furthermore, remember the admin mods? They spread like wildfire, and left a lot of players dissatisfied with their server choices, because they did not want to play games with the silly double and dual sabers. This could very well repeat itself with kicks as an option.

You'd have to consider all outcomes that such a patch would result in, and weigh them against each other. For instance, right now, a lot of people are complaining about the butterfly moves as well, but imagine if in 1 month, it's common knowledge how to deal with them. If Raven patched the game now, they'd "nerf" the butterfly move as well (don't expect Raven only to cater to you alone) and take one more combat move out of the repetoire.

If you keep thinking about it, sooner or later you're going to hit the point where your logic comes around to slap you in the face, because it's circular logic.

Please explain how his logic is circular and yours isn't. I'm not sure you know what the term means here...

And further to the point, proven effective.

Such talk. Care to elaborate?

Again, gf and gg.

Ehhh.... kthxbaibai.

Ardent
10-03-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
I'd rather not trust you. Saying it's "flawed" or "broken" means nothing in reality. It's gameplay, pure and simple - people are playing the game and having fun, and some are not. Because you don't find it fun does not mean everyone is of the same opinion.

No opinions necessary. Saber throw is broken. It gets hitched up on the ARIOCHE terrain engine and fails to return, which creates all sorts of problems. Mine wouldn't return for close to 3 minutes on the Corellian train level. I had to dodge the enemies and try not to get hit so I could maintain my saber-only win.

Hehe, strawman yet again. This "flawed gameplay" is not an isolated case as the vehicle belt strap is, so the analogy is useless.

? There's not such thing as an "isolated" case when you're talking about a car that sits in 10% of American driveways (or somewhere darn near close to that, anyway). I don't think I'm the one employing straw here. The logic remains linear whether you apply it to a car or to a game.

Releasing a patch would mean changes to the whole game, no matter if it's only cvar's. People are going to use those cvar's, and for some, it's going to ruin the game for them. It's going to render the staff less effective as it currently has the only way to kick included. This is not what Raven wants, it's that obvious. They'd have to delete or edit those animations, just to please a small amount of players, and I don't think they'd want to do that.

No they wouldn't. Unless they wanted to. And it wouldn't realistically make the staff less effective. It'd only lend the illusion of the staff being less effective, which would give the people who use it to spam butterfly an opportunity to complain about it being weak,

Furthermore, remember the admin mods? They spread like wildfire, and left a lot of players dissatisfied with their server choices, because they did not want to play games with the silly double and dual sabers. This could very well repeat itself with kicks as an option.

I made it a point of pride to be banned from any server that used an admin mod inappropriately (e.g. used it for anything besides an inuitive rcon interface), so they never really ruined the game for me. I doubt, and let me stress, that a cvar will make as much difference as admin mods did. Admin mods screwed up JO not because you could add dual and doublesabers and whatnot, but BECAUSE IT ALLOWED THE ADMIN TO BULLY EVERYONE ON THE SERVER. The end.

You'd have to consider all outcomes that such a patch would result in, and weigh them against each other. For instance, right now, a lot of people are complaining about the butterfly moves as well, but imagine if in 1 month, it's common knowledge how to deal with them. If Raven patched the game now, they'd "nerf" the butterfly move as well (don't expect Raven only to cater to you alone) and take one more combat move out of the repetoire.

It is not humanly possible to consider every side of a situation. We lack the depth of intuition to know when we've hit that "limit" that marks every side of a situation. Further to the point, we live in a dynamic world. Nobody possesses the cognitive ability to approach an issue from every side in the limited amount of time something remains relatively stable. BTW there is no answer for the butterfly except to duck away, roll in and HOPE TO GOD THEY'RE DUMB ENOUGH TO STAND STILL AT THE END OF THEIR BUTTERFLY. Otherwise you're back to square one. There is no counter for the butterfly in NF dueling. With guns it's grab a splatter-effect weapon and go to town. With FF SO action you can try pushing but it doesn't really work. One little fix would make butterfly stomachable: the inability to change the initial direction of the butterfly movement. That'd just about do it.

Please explain how his logic is circular and yours isn't. I'm not sure you know what the term means here...

I don't think I'm the one misunderstanding. I proved beyond a reasonable doubt his hypocrisy (on two counts now) and I can prove that there's no such thing as a premature patch. The only thing you have when you're talking about a so-called "premature patch" is a player clinging to his lost crutch. All of the "imbalances" 1.03 created were fixed with 1.04. Patches often correct the errors of previous patches. It's common practice. So is releasing an unfinished game, which is exactly what JA is right now, no matter what you may think.

As for the rest of your post, I'm afraid I can't be goaded as easily as you'd like.

traj
10-03-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Gabrobot

As it has been pointed out, patching a game, a day after its release, which changes gameplay, is not acceptable. It is physically impossible to know everything there is to know about the strategy of a game, with as many new moves as JA has, in a single day. To best understand what needs tweaking, Raven should wait at least a couple months, so that people can have a fuller knowledge of the different strategies in JA. By the time, as well, Raven can have patched technical issues which may have warped the balance of the game, as Vanor said.

I'm sure you know that the game has been out for longer than a day (2 1/2 weeks) and we are still having the same problems.

It may take you a couple of months to learn this stuff, not everybody learns at the same rate however.

This community is in serious danger right now. (Attention Al, this is not a threat). The majority of the competitive community is about to throw in the towel on this game, and while I know that you guys don't really give a ****, and would actually make alot of you happy, I'm a little bummed out that a bunch of friends I made in JO are all going to split up into Halo and other games.

Server side togglable cvar options is all that is needed to save the competitive community. Casual players can still play in casual servers that they like, and competitive players can play in the servers that they like. It has ALWAYS been this way in the past, there should be no new problems with it now.

Like I predicted, you're either gonna lose our portion of the community, or we're going to be fragmented (as we've always been). The community will shrink, or will fragment by the same portion.

Either way, people are going to play where they want to play. A utopian community where everyone plays the same games with the same settings is not possible anymore. We're in far too deep. There are already servers who run different damage scales. A fragmented community already exists.

If we're such a small, insignificant portion of the community who should "go play another game", why would you care if we crawl into a couple of our own servers and beat the **** out of each other the way we like to?

I know we certainly won't bother to come to the servers that the RPGers run, and they wont come to ours. The difference is, we ALL get to play the game this way. Instead of some of us running off to Halo and the like.

Raven, please save the community by giving us togglable options, just like saber damage so that we don't lose the competitive community.

..or whiners, as you guys like to call us.

/cry
/roll

Spider AL
10-03-2003, 01:56 PM
Three more people now, Dyehead... what is that, 13? 14 now? Depending on whether one counts me...

Greensmoke:

yes, all you people that say we can find new ways of winning, etc., you're right - but that new way of winning will NOT have the balance of strategic force management defense against technical skill and tactics for offense, but will be pure force management on both sides - the learning curve is nil, the gameplay is tedious, and NO competetive player wants to put time into a game in these conditions:Mmm, I disagree, but I empathise with your desire for a game you consider to be competitively inclined.

I personally think JA is amusing, and would enjoy competing in it. That's just me... maybe the game just doesn't suit YOU? But that doesn't matter either. Wait a while, play for a while, THEN ask raven for the gameplay patches you want. Then we will all be sure about whose ideas are valid and whose are not. I'm not saying that your appraisal of the gameplay is invalid, nor am I saying it's valid. I'm merely saying that judging by all the other games that have been prematurely patched, no good can come of RUSHING JA into a gameplay patching situation. Now is too soon, by any standard.

You assert that the game is currently inferior to JO... that's fine, it's a separate game and you're entitled to rate it however you wish. But please, no precognitive predictions of doom. Nobody can accurately predict how a game's community will evolve, nobody. Such statements are guesswork.

Ardent:

What's the point of reading when you already know the sum of the post?That is a question I ask myself every time I come across your name in this thread and feel the urge to read any lower. The answer is that laughter is the best medicine, and I'm a sick puppy.

I like the fact that you've trollishly avoided replying to my cutting, ardent-argument-destroying post, by the way. Like the ostrich, you stick your head in the sand, hoping that the great destroyer will be gone when you look up.

I fear you'll find that you have no legs left, when you've finished blinking the sand from your lids, however.

I don't hate, nor do I personally disrespect any of you. I just think it's pretty clear to a non-biased observer that I'm in the right here.I wonder who gets to define which observer is unbiased. I guess Ardent thinks it's him. I guess he thinks his wee friends are unbiased observers.

In fact, I'm so disenfranchised with AL's circular logic I'll reply to his last bore-a-thon with a simple: nice bit of hypocrisy there, hypocrite.YOUR LOGIC WOUNDS ME! IT WOUNDS ME TO THE BONE! ARRRGH!

You're a squid. Why? Because I said so. HA I WIN GGZ!!!!

:D

If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY.Those who want change need to ask themselves that question. You want change? Why? Bugs must be fixed, gameplay is an abstract concept and until it's been fully explored it should not be tampered with.

Yes yes, I know you consider yourself the all-knowing NG CTF0r. That doesn't break any ice with me, meladdo. You don't even care how your "improvements" might affect the larger community, so that invalidates any non-trolling opinions you might have had to begin with.

So who the heck are you to tell us we have to play the game that only exists in your head? You're nobody.

Look, I'll equate this again (and again and again until Kurgan obliges and closes the thread): if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened?Good choice of car. I think you're talking about a bug in the car though. Nobody wants bugs in a game. Bugs must be fixed.

Bugs are bugs. Bugs are errors. Bugs crash the game, bugs allow someone to use an invisible skin. Bugs cause a change of skin to lose a player a duel. Bugs? Fix them.

But gameplay? Gameplay is subjective. One man enjoys one gametype, another does not. That doesn't mean either of them are "right" or "wrong". What it means is that each has a right to enjoy his own gametype, and nobody has the right to demand that that gametype be changed. That is why one must wait a while and play a while before gameplay patching is demanded. Because we must KNOW that the things we ask for aren't going to ruin someone else's gametype. You say that your gametype is bogged up? That's a shame. That doesn't mean you get to risk OUR gametypes, or the enjoyment of the community at large.

No premature gameplay patching for JA, Raven!

A patch is a patch is a patch. If you're going to patch for bugs (and there are many), you're INEVITABLY GOING TO PATCH FOR GAMEPLAY. Because some exploits ARE bugs.A bug is defined as a flaw, error or ommission in the code or resources of a game that causes an effect the developer didn't intend when they made the game. Generally these days the word refers to some UNDESIRABLE thing that the developer didn't intend when they made the game, though in the early days even bugs like rocket jumping that proved over time desirable to the community were still called bugs.

So do you know who gets to decide what a bug is or isn't? No? Raven. That's who. Because only they know what they intended or didn't. Some exploits may indeed be bugs, like the rocket exploit was in JO. They should be fixed as bugs, since Raven would deem them to be bugs.

But here lies the rub, and you've just hung yourself up by with this one Ardent, totally and utterly destroying any feeble, lingering shreds of respectability you may or may not have possessed after we finished exposing your blatantly offensive trolling for what it was:

The lack of (non-stance specific) kick in JA is not a bug.

I'll repeat that for the back row:

The lack of (non-stance specific) kick in JA is not a bug.

Why? Because Raven purposly did not include it, so it cannot POSSIBLY qualify.

Reintroducing kick can ONLY be described as a purely gameplay-altering choice. It can NEVER be described as a bugfix. You and your compatriots want to change the makeup of the whole game for the whole community, and create new and bettar! splits in the community, on the offchance that such a change might help you and your friends enjoy a gametype in the NEW game JA, that you don't currently enjoy.

THAT, is unacceptable, especially since you just don't have the playtime or experience of JA to claim to know as much about it as would qualify you to make such decisions.

QED.

Admin mods screwed up JO not because you could add dual and doublesabers and whatnot, but BECAUSE IT ALLOWED THE ADMIN TO BULLY EVERYONE ON THE SERVER.Rogue admins and fanboys certainly did bully people... but the reason all the silly mods (not merely adminmods) that emerged for JO were negative was because they attracted certain players, and repulsed everyone else. They helped, each one, to fragment the community beyond repair. The premature patching helped more, but the silly mods helped a lot. The JK series of games is naturally slightly fragmented from the word go because of the large number of possible gametypes that can be played. No game in the JK series needs ANYTHING that would fragment it further. No silly, one-move-modifying mods. No premature patching. No addition of a kick cvar to all gametypes less than a month after release. The end.

I proved beyond a reasonable doubt his hypocrisy (on two counts now)Obviously you consider that when you SAY something, you prove it through the divine force of your holy word. Obviously you are mistaken. If I am a hypocrite, you are a small squid. Why? Because if you can say something without bothering to back it up and call it proven, so can I. Tentacle lad! Rah! :D

Unnamed:

I backed up the statements I made with detailed fact and begged, if not dared people to prove my statements wrong.

None could.Sorry Unnamed, but this just isn't so. Just because you ignored our arguments or didn't give them any credence, doesn't mean we didn't MAKE those arguments. Don't start claiming that you've gone unreplied to. Debate our assertions all you wish, but at the moment you're just ignoring them. That doesn't make your position seem very strong.

Emon:

If I recall, somewhere up there you called AL a fanboy, now you're saying he hates Raven? You're not making much sense to me.As you know, the goal of the troll isn't to make sense, it's to try to start an argument and shout as loudly as he or she can, in an attempt to drag others down to his/her level of incompetent flaming.

This troll, has failed. Taste the bitter draught of failiure Ardent! It chilleth the blood as no other, I hear. :D

That's the secret to dealing with trolls really. See them for what they are, and let the laughter spring forth.

Spider AL
10-03-2003, 02:02 PM
Traj:

This community is in serious danger right now. (Attention Al, this is not a threat). The majority of the competitive community is about to throw in the towel on this game, and while I know that you guys don't really give a ****, and would actually make alot of you happy, I'm a little bummed out that a bunch of friends I made in JO are all going to split up into Halo and other games.It wouldn't make me happy. But I have to tell you, if you expected your clan and all your JO NG CTF friends to step with you into a utopian land of eternal JA NG CTF, you were misguided. I've run my clan for years and years. The makeup of my clan has changed with EACH game. I was lucky I enjoyed JO almost as much as I enjoyed JK, otherwise I would have left, as many of our members did.

Groups don't translate well between games.

There are already servers who run different damage scales. A fragmented community already exists.That is not an excuse for wilfully fragmenting it further.

If we're such a small, insignificant portion of the community who should "go play another game", why would you care if we crawl into a couple of our own servers and beat the **** out of each other the way we like to?That would be fine, but you're trying to affect everyone else's gametypes in addition to your own. That's not fine. For that purpose, you must wait a goodly length of time and be certain that your changes will not adversely affect the gameplay of other modes, while possibly improving your own.

traj
10-03-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Wait a while, play for a while, THEN ask raven for the gameplay patches you want.

Awhile. (One word buddy /wink)

/sigh

Awhile?

And obviously, YOU get to determine when we can finally ask for our patches. Please let us know when YOU have made up YOUR mind as to when we can decide that our gameplay needs help. We've been discussing this in here since the game came out, nothing has changed. Maybe when Al decides that we actually have a point, he'll let us know. /crosses fingers

Would a year be long enough AL? [insert smug answer here]. No, YOU have determined that 2 months is sufficient time to begin considering a patch. Thanks for letting us all know what we should and shouldn't do, and when we should and shouldn't do it.
[insert smug your welcome /smiley here.]

Prime
10-03-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
When someone says fanboy in a SW-related forum, it usually defaults to Star Wars fanboy. Sorry for any confusion. Actually, if you had been around these boards since the JO days (not saying you should have been), then you would have seen that traditionally Al has been very anti-SW-fanboy. He may have changed his views of late, but last I saw he cares little for how JO/JA captures the essense of the movies. He only cares about the game itself and how it fits into the Dark Forces series. Al can correct me if I am wrong about this.

Originally posted by FK | unnamed
No offense but some of you "casual players" really seem to have some issues with thinking everything is directed towards you. It may not have been directed at us, but when you say something like, "It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game," I assume it is directed at me (or those like me) because I do like the game. You seemed to diss anyone who likes the game, and that means me. There wasn't anything there that makes me think it isn't directed at me. That's all :)

Originally posted by Ardent
If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY. If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is), then it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. If that means a patch to download the same day you get the game, then I will download that patch. By that logic who the heck are you to say that Raven is wrong for not releasing a patch? You're a NOBODY. If Raven feels that gameplay isn't overly flawed from day one (and for all we know this might be how they feel) they might not think it is necessary to release a gameplay patch, at least not right away. If that means we have to wait for a few months then we will have to wait.