PDA

View Full Version : Another kick thread...


Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 06:55 AM
Since there seems to some hostility to my stating my reasons in another thread, I'm posting my reasons again, here, so that someone will, hopefully, reply to them.

My original posts:
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Has anyone thought of the fact that perhaps Raven tweaked things so that players now have to use all the tools which Raven put in, in order to get anywhere? Perhaps playing, with half of these taken out, doesn't work because...half of it's left out? :rolleyes:

Raven directed their attention on balancing everything out, and that included taking out kick, obviously since they took out kick. They designed JA CTF with everything in mind...that includes the force powers, the saber styles and their new moves and it includes the guns...all nine of them and three explosive devises. Now, if you want to take away some of your most valuable tools, fine...but remember that it's going to cause problems.

Now, if a kick option were put in, then you're saying that it wouldn't cause problems because only people who want to use will use it. Well, if Raven made it so that you could kill people by jumping on their heads, then people would use that option because of how easy it makes killing people. You just have to manage jumping on their head, right? So what you'd end up with is a bunch of idiots jumping around trying to jump on each others heads. Nice, eh? There goes all of Raven's careful balancing.

Now, Kicking is as bad as jumping on someone’s head to kill them. Why? Because its easy...everyone would go around trying to kick each other, just like in JKII...I don't know just how much of that went on in CTF or FFA games, but Duels were complete ****...everyone doing those stupid bows and "honor" and killing each other by being the fastest kicker rather then a skilled saberist...it completely ruined Duel mode. (The "honor" **** was bad enough without the battles being completely devoid of skill.)

Now, if you're half way intelligent, you'll have figured out what my reply, to your original question, was...

Originally posted by Gabrobot
Originally posted by dyehead
I think you're missing the point, which is that guns suck, and that's not an option to solve the problem of what our question was, your reply was, 'lamers, shut up and use guns because s/o ctf is dumb'

Okay, so you're saying that your opinion is that guns suck and that my opinion is that saber only CTF sucks...thanks for not only stating your opinion in a manner which seems to imply that you're right and that it's a fact, but also giving me an opinion which I don't have. If I used the same tactics, then I could say something about your opinion being that everyone who doesn't play saber only CTF should jump in front of a train, and we would get exactly nowhere. Please, enough of the childish nonsense of warping my opinion and then forcing it on me...it just shows why you shouldn't be the ones to be deciding if something needs to be changed in the gameplay...you have no respect for others and their opinions.


Now, the reason you think guns suck may be that you can't, and refuse to, learn how to use them and how to defend yourself against them. I was playing a JA FFA game just yesterday, where I was one of the top scorers...the reason was because I was using everything I had to kill people. I used force powers, my lightstaff and guns. Then this guy (who had all of 2 points by the time the match ended) started calling me "lame" and that I "don't know how to play jk"...now, guess what type of player he was? He was one of those "honor" people who feel that their way of playing is right, and since that doesn't include using guns, he's going complain about it when he's always killed by guns.
Now, I don't know if that's why you think guns suck, but that's what I suspect. If I am wrong in my suspicion, then correct my error and please state a logical reason why you think they suck.

I don't know if saber only CTF sucks, as I haven't tried playing that way...why have I not played that way? Because, to me, it doesn't sound like a fun way to play. That's just my opinion, and there are obviously some people who find it fun...that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. I prefer to play CTF with everything it was intended to be played with. Some people may not want to play with everything...that's fine, they can play it however they want. If something doesn't work when you play that way, however, don't blame Raven and demand that they make a patch to "fix" this "bug"...that is not fine. Raven made the game the way it is for a reason...kicks were popular...Raven would not have taken them out if there wasn't a problem with them being in. That problem is that they're easy to pull off, and completely screw up all the other elements of the gameplay.

I have stated my reasons for why I think kick would be used, and why it would ruin JA just like it did in JKII...if you ignore my logical arguments, then that's your own fault, not mine.

And my last message is: Don't ruin everyone else's fun. It is tragic that the way you played CTF in JO is no longer fun in JA, but that's just because Raven made people depend on everything, rather than a few moves repeated in robotic button presses. That is JA, and if you don't like the way JA is played, then that is your problem...JA is JA...and if you bring up that idiotic "JA is a JO mod" argument, then be warned that I have a logical reply for that, as well.

I'm also so glad I'm talking with people who value other peoples opinions so highly, that they openly say, in a most rude way, that you're going to ignore my reply's if you don't like them. Very open minded of you, I must say. :D

Now, what I am asking for, is a reason why bringing back kick, as an option, will not cause great harm to the enjoyment of the other game types in JA. I have stated my logical reasons why I think it will cause harm, and so far no one has given a good reason why it won't cause harm.

I am open to any opinions, on this, as long as they aren't stated in a childish and immature way.

Side
09-23-2003, 07:00 AM
u said it urself,u never realy tried s/o ctf
and trust me kick is a must for that gametype

unlike dye i dont hate guns at all,hell that that most enjoyable part in jka so far(well for me that is...) specialy in that siege mod

and it wont cause harm for the simple fact that it will OPTIONAL if the server admin doesnt like kick then turn off kicks that all

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 07:09 AM
My point was that kick would be enabled because it's popular...it's easy to pull off, and is the most effective move. That doesn't mean it would make JA a better game (in the other game modes, not saber only CTF)...it means it takes the fun out of what makes JA special (in those other modes).

And, as I've said before, it's tragic that saber only CTF is no longer fun for the people who liked playing that way in JKII, but JA is a different game and Raven decided to go in favor of making guns a more important part of the gameplay.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 07:14 AM
then let server administrators decide if they want kick on their servers, and if you don't like it, play where they have it disabled.

Side
09-23-2003, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by Side

and it wont cause harm for the simple fact that it will OPTIONAL if the server admin doesnt like kick then turn off kicks that all

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 07:26 AM
In reality that would most likely not work. Because of kick's popularity, most servers would enable it, and you'd have to do a lot of searching to find a server with players on it which doesn't have a terrible ping (quite important in my case since I have a 56k connection).

Remember Holocron Deathmatch in JKII? Not particularly fun, and it didn't have many people playing it because there were no fans of it from previous games. Raven decided to take it completely out because of this. The reason saber only CTF is still in JA is because the option to play with saber and force only has been in Jedi Knight games since the original Jedi Knight...it has a larger fan base, but that doesn't mean it's still fun in JA.

Also, having servers with two very different types of play would split the community and there would be a repeat of the JKII disaster.

A Big Fat CoW
09-23-2003, 07:26 AM
Honestly, if you want to have kicks, just go play JO. it's not like JA is completely replacing JO, they're different games. Stop complaining that "kick isnt here anymore bring it back plz", because THIS IS NOT JO. if this has different gameplay mechanics, then all the better.

Honestly, do you see people going around asking for Raven to bring back the BFG, the AWP, etc, for JA? No, because they're from an entirely different game. Kicking is from an entirely different game. Shut up. Stop complaining. No one cares.

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 07:44 AM
See guys, that's the funny key to the puzzle you are missing.

We don't need kicks to kill you people, (as in the average players).

Killing you guys is actually a very easy task still, just as easy as it was in Jedi Outcast.

:)


We want the game un nerfed so that matches between two skilled players/teams are not 20 minute stalemates.

It really has nothing to do with the average player.

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 07:50 AM
heh never thought of it that way..nice dog

and kick isnt exactly easy to pull off on a fc with speed

and slashing your saber in red (hard) stance results in you not being able to be moved while being kicked

and considerin kick does 20 dmg each..it's not exactly simple to pull off 6 kicks in a row...in ctf that is

and cow i suggest u readin those two huge threads about ja mp before stating "no one cares"


the serious multiplayer one by weiner and the kick thing by captainjack

dyehead
09-23-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
In reality that would most likely not work. Because of kick's popularity, most servers would enable it, and you'd have to do a lot of searching to find a server with players on it which doesn't have a terrible ping (quite important in my case since I have a 56k connection).

McFly???

If kick is so popular, then obviously the masses want it back, you being in the minority should just deal with kick then, no? Or are you that one jerkoff that everyone hates because they whine so much about something that they themselves are unable at becoming adept at, that the game developers remove it..

Please. Your original statement was that your opinion is that the creators of JKA created it so you'd have to use guns for effective CTF. I think that's BS, and they're smarter than that.

Obviously people play games until they get tired of them, or a new game comes out. I played JKO for over a year, then got tired of it and stopped playing, moving onto other games. Now that JKA is here, that's a renewed and revived community from the JKO days, which I expect to see playing the same type of game, and liking it the same type of way, which IS THE CASE.

So obviously, if so many people like kick, then maybe it should be brought back.

Why not NOT bring back kick? Because people will stop playing, the hardcore players will not play JKA, and they will tell their friends not to waste their money on it, because for their type of gameplay, it's not up to par.

As a FACT, S/O CTF has had the longest running playerbase out of any kind of Jedi Knight game type. Obviously, the community enjoys that type of play.

It sounds to me like you just want some ff/guns server options, you're afraid that all the servers local to you will turn into sabers only :( boohoo..

I appreciate all efforts that Raven has put into this game, and I'm sure they'll make efforts to appease the Sabers Only community, as they have in the past.

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
See guys, that's the funny key to the puzzle you are missing.

We don't need kicks to kill you people, (as in the average players).

Killing you guys is actually a very easy task still, just as easy as it was in Jedi Outcast.

:)


We want the game un nerfed so that matches between two skilled players/teams are not 20 minute stalemates.

It really has nothing to do with the average player.

Why are you more important than everyone else? By "un nerfing" JA, it would become impossible for many players, who play game types other than CTF, to enjoy playing JA. (Not so subtle hint to [div3rse.jello] ;) )

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
[snip]

No...I'm talking about people who would rather over use (spam) certain moves rather than use everything. They are the people devoid of skill who ruin the gameplay because everyone else has to use the move if they are to win. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's actually supported by the majority of the gamers. Just look at that "honor" **** for proof of that.

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 08:09 AM
ahah we arent exactly "important" than anyone else..

it's just that no one else has stuff to complain about..so we kinda stand out with the mass of the s/o community on the lucasforums heh

and i dont really see how it would be impossible unnerfing it

i mean the whole jedi outcast started with kicking, one hit dfa kills and stuff like that yet jo became the top selling pc game in 2002 in us, germany, and uk

Gabrobot
09-23-2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
ahah we arent exactly "important" than anyone else..

it's just that no one else has stuff to complain about..so we kinda stand out with the mass of the s/o community on the lucasforums heh

and i dont really see how it would be impossible unnerfing it

i mean the whole jedi outcast started with kicking, one hit dfa kills and stuff like that yet jo became the top selling pc game in 2002 in us, germany, and uk

Yeah, and guess why...it was a great single player game. The vast majority of the people who bought JKII and who are buying JA, are single player gamers. Ever wonder why the reviews of JKII and JA mostly focus on it's single player? (For that matter, ever wonder why Raven focused on the single player?)

Those people are also some of the ones that might drop in on multi player if they could play without getting kicked constantly.

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 08:22 AM
Never said we are more important, we are just better players at our chosen game type.

It would be no different than a really good gunner telling me I am not good as good at guns as he is.

I would not take it personal, because it is fact.

Since our chosen game type revolves around sabers and force, pretty much any server we go to, be it dueling, FFA, TeamFFA or CTF, we can and do generally beat the living crap out of the players there who are not competition level clan players.

This is why I don't think you guys are seeing eye to eye with us on why we want kicks back.

I'm not trying to insult you guy, but even without kicks, even with all the nerfed crap like the grip restriction and force penalty on specials, I can still own it up like a mofo and have done so when I played on the public servers I have over the last few days.

Screed is a clan mate and another person posting here in support of us as well.

He spent the last few days totally dominating people on the servers he went to.

Plaz, another competition clanner had people freaking out because they had no admin mod to /kickban him because he was raping some clan in their own server.

This is the same treatment we got in Jedi Outcast.

Now I really don't care about them getting all pissy, my point of telling you all that was to illustrate that the "adapt to the changes it's a new game" argument is nonsense.

If this was a totally new game how and why do we still use the same old tactics and beat the hell out of the average Joe Q player?


Our problem is when we face each other, you have basically two players/clans who know all the "dirty little tricks" but there is no high damage/quick death bringer like unrestricted combos/specials/complex high damage kick related combos etc. so the "all it takes is one shot" variable is removed and it becomes a stalemate.

Also make no mistake; this does not only affect CTF.

Duels are a total stalemate (FF duel).
TeamFFA is a long drawn out “let’s all stand in a row and Kata fight and see who gets lucky”

Mojopin
09-23-2003, 08:29 AM
I think if you want to lame your kick again, just wait. Someone will make a mod soon enough that people will run on their server, play ctf on those servers and probablem solved. Until then, stick with JO and leave game design and JA's features to Raven. This is a Start Wars game, tell me one scene in any Star Wars film to date that shows some evil Jedi chocking somone and while giving them multiple kicks to the cranium...:confused:

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 08:36 AM
Show me one movie where they used a conc rifle.

Show me one movie with people playing CTF.

Show me one movie where they had Chewbacca running around with a pink saber.

It’s a game you silly willy, it's not the movies.

Never has been, never will be.

btw the "lame" comment just said what I was waiting for some one to say.

You guys don't want kicks back in because you are afraid of them.

Thanks for being the first to publicly say it.

You hated them because you never learned how to counter them properly.

Yeah that is true, deny it all you like but you know it's dead on the mark.

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 08:38 AM
tell me one scene where you see jedis bowing before they fight

tell me one scene where you see them fight like the way you do

tell me one scene where you see them change saber styles, do a dfa, lunge, yellow dfa, any kata, a cartwheel

see how absurd your "that wasnt in the movie" argument is

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 08:39 AM
HAHAHAA dog we made similar posts

Krause
09-23-2003, 08:56 AM
Hehe, this reminds of of the discussions we had on the day of defeat boards regarding jump-shooting. Anyway high-level clan players usualy do know what they are talking about simply because they spend more time playing the game then anyone else. HOWEVER you should keep in mind that they are only a very small portion of the entire playerbase. Personally i wouldn't object against an optional return of the kick as long as it only does limited or no damage at all.

(on a side note. the entire concept of playing ctf with meelee weapons only seems kinda silly to me. Insta-gib all the way ;))

M45
09-23-2003, 09:31 AM
I don't think people really LIKED kick, they just used it because it was there- and one of the easiest ways to kill people.

Keeping it out of the game = avoidance of this whole debacle.

Mojopin
09-23-2003, 10:18 AM
ok weiner genuis, how the hell did you counter them. The only way I saw was to either use protect or hit fast run and move to the side. But even then the game would often compensate for lag and you would still get kicked. You talk about lame comments, your comment that "oh you just didn't know how to counter" is as lame as they come. Counter 3 L33t players like yourself constantly kicking you down. Don't even begin to tell me you have a counter for that because i have played tons and tons of JO, the kick was too much and way overpowered. Afraid of them sheesh, when I would go into straight duels with people, no kick, I would own. You are just to much of a wimp with a saber and need something to spam so you can win a game.

When I go into a duel, I would use kick very little primarily because most people would spam it. It was a nifty move I give you that, but it was way overpowered. I played it so much until I couldn't stand the lame ass spamming of kick and started to play a better MP game. Not that JA is that much better, but at leat they got rid of the lame ass kick, goodbye and good riddance, you aint going to see it again on a server running retail. Go play outcast and quit yer bitchin...

Oh and I should have included the comics in the comment about it being a Star Wars game. Alot of the things you mentioned earlier Weiner are things you might see in the comics, it's part of the SW universe also. Well maybe not the CTF but I'll give you that, it's a game: a STAR WARS game.

WadeV1589
09-23-2003, 10:46 AM
See guys, that's the funny key to the puzzle you are missing.

We don't need kicks to kill you people, (as in the average players).

Killing you guys is actually a very easy task still, just as easy as it was in Jedi Outcast.

I'd say that's reason enough to not bring back kick, stop your "s/o l33tist's" from saying "we're the best at s/o we know what's right", if the rest of us in every game type has had to learn new ways to do stuff, why in hell are you any different? You've lost something? We all have! Your skill is soooooo good in s/o that you spend more time complaining here about it than trying to find ways around it! Face it, you've lost kick, s/o is NOT in the majority (no matter how much your ego believes it is) so deal with the loss! I can't believe you'll spend so much time complaining, it's sad.

It's people like you that end up bringing games down with your mass complaining, people just buying JA and it being the first game in the SW series they've bought don't want to come here and hear you complaining, nor do they want to go on a server to hear you complaining!

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 02:05 PM
mojopin...all you do is roll with absorb on..and push around if you want :rolleyes:


and i wouldnt be callin the best full force saber only dueler a wimp :eek:

C'jais
09-23-2003, 02:26 PM
I find it amusing that the s/o CTF people willingly restrict their combat options so they can play a game that's more "fun" to them.

Sure, you could use guns and kill that running FC, but why don't you? Because then you'd have to introduce guns to your game and you don't want that. Why's that? Because the game will be far easier for those using guns? Because the game will be dreadfully dull with guns included? Why?

After all, there's a perfectly fine tool at your disposal but you're not using it, yet you're now whining about how hard it is to kill - sounds familiar?

As for the kick, it's already in the game. It's a bit trickier to employ, but it'll have to do instead.

WadeV1589
09-23-2003, 02:30 PM
As for the kick, it's already in the game. It's a bit trickier to employ, but it'll have to do instead.I think they know about kicking people down, just they're not happy that now you can jump up quickly or role away, however I've knocked people down before and then done a forward lunge, it's harder but that should make it more of a challenge, NOT a reason to complain.

The s/o CTF "community" don't like their skills being removed because they feel it will reduce their ability to that of us mere average players *coughs*. I think it's more fear that they may start to get beaten as other people find new ways and they don't than an actual complaint about kick.

Vestril
09-23-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by C'jais


As for the kick, it's already in the game. It's a bit trickier to employ, but it'll have to do instead.

It should also be pointed out that the current kick is instant death as near as I can tell...two people will be duelling and suddenly, without that gradual wearing down that often occurs, one will just die. So there you go weiner dog, if you can manage to use the lightstaff kick, it gives you that edge to end stalemates...even if it's slow as hell :p

WadeV1589
09-23-2003, 02:38 PM
Oh no but you don't understand, it's not he JO kick, and even though this is JA, it MUST have the JO kick, it totally ruins the game otherwise! We don't give a flying feck if this isn't JO, we want it to be just like JO!!


Sorry had to make fun of the l33tists, cause that's all I can hear when they post here about kick :p

Destino
09-23-2003, 02:47 PM
Is it me or has anyone else noticed that the following argument is self defeating.

"It won't work because of kick popularity"

If kick is popular with the players then it should be reintroduced for that reason alone. Raven caters to us, not the other way around.

BTW - as it stands JKJA is crap, when HL2 comes out look for 60% of the ladders, leagues, etc. to vanish unless the game flow is improved drastically.

C'jais
09-23-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Destino
BTW - as it stands JKJA is crap, when HL2 comes out look for 60% of the ladders, leagues, etc. to vanish unless the game flow is improved drastically.

Then so be it.

When is HL2 out again?

Rumor
09-23-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Yeah, and guess why...it was a great single player game. The vast majority of the people who bought JKII and who are buying JA, are single player gamers. Ever wonder why the reviews of JKII and JA mostly focus on it's single player? (For that matter, ever wonder why Raven focused on the single player?)

Those people are also some of the ones that might drop in on multi player if they could play without getting kicked constantly.

more like there is no community for them to play with, and they never even review multiplayer other than how it feels playing with a few people on a LAN. if you knew anything about game reviewing you would know that.

just so you remember most of those buyers played multiplayer a lot. i know that several other games had people buying jk2 and start playing its mp as well, only to leave after it was "newbie-fied" as they called it.

WadeV1589
09-23-2003, 03:06 PM
"It won't work because of kick popularity" - that's coming from the people who hate kick isn't it? Their argument is it will get abused and spoil the games by making it too easy to kill.

I was wondering you want the option to turn kick on right on the server? Basically for s/o ctf only right? So you want fast kills to be able to easily defeat the fc in s/o ctf....why not just increase the damage multiplier so one red stance attack is an instant kill, or maybe 2 attacks? Wouldn't give them enough time to heal the carrier and if two people attacked the fc they could easily kill him. Or is this a totally stupid idea because you've said you want your JO style kick back and you'll stick by it to the bitter end...

Rumor
09-23-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
I find it amusing that the s/o CTF people willingly restrict their combat options so they can play a game that's more "fun" to them.

Sure, you could use guns and kill that running FC, but why don't you? Because then you'd have to introduce guns to your game and you don't want that. Why's that? Because the game will be far easier for those using guns? Because the game will be dreadfully dull with guns included? Why?

After all, there's a perfectly fine tool at your disposal but you're not using it, yet you're now whining about how hard it is to kill - sounds familiar?

As for the kick, it's already in the game. It's a bit trickier to employ, but it'll have to do instead.


this is a "star wars game" right? so naturally the gametypes should revolve around saber only? or maybe its because playing saber only creates a dynamic that cannot be matched in ANY OTHER GAME. if we wanted to play guns ctf we have hundreds of choices.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Mojopin
ok weiner genuis, how the hell did you counter them. The only way I saw was to either use protect or hit fast run and move to the side. But even then the game would often compensate for lag and you would still get kicked. You talk about lame comments, your comment that "oh you just didn't know how to counter" is as lame as they come. Counter 3 L33t players like yourself constantly kicking you down. Don't even begin to tell me you have a counter for that because i have played tons and tons of JO, the kick was too much and way overpowered. Afraid of them sheesh, when I would go into straight duels with people, no kick, I would own. You are just to much of a wimp with a saber and need something to spam so you can win a game.


heh. FF/SO is a MENTAL game above anything else. you have to ANTICIPATE what the person is going to do next, simply because if he starts it you're gonna be hurting. NF duels you can just simply watch them swing and counter it. ff you can't. you have to work on new methods of dodging involving more than just running or rolling. try using push, or even pull, not to mention counter kicks and evasion. yeah, its hard as hell. thats the way we like it, challengeing, not dumbed down.

C'jais
09-23-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
this is a "star wars game" right? so naturally the gametypes should revolve around saber only? or maybe its because playing saber only creates a dynamic that cannot be matched in ANY OTHER GAME. if we wanted to play guns ctf we have hundreds of choices.

So you're limiting your combat moves based on you wanting it to be "like the movies, at least a little bit".

So you're limiting your combat moves based on you wanting a specific kind of gameplay and don't give a damn that you're not as effective as you could be.

Am I right?


Do I even need to mention how hypocritical this is when saying the magic word "kick"?

You have several ways to kill an FC fast, but you choose not to use them. Is it really Raven's fault?

Get this, in JO NF duelling, if I complained that it was very tough to beat a competetive player who knew how to use red stance and evade my attacks - would it be fair if you said "Just kick him?" Would it be fair if you said "Just suck it up?"

If kicks were enabled and me and my opponent's strategies revolved around kicks (due to them being the most effective attacks on a cost/benefit analysis), would it make sense to say that the kicks had actually dumbed down the game, limited our combat repetoire and turned the game into a more advanced form of Pong?

WadeV1589
09-23-2003, 03:29 PM
turned the game into a more advanced form of Pong? lmao I love that, I'm so going to use that as a new quote!

Rumor
09-23-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
So you're limiting your combat moves based on you wanting it to be "like the movies, at least a little bit".

So you're limiting your combat moves based on you wanting a specific kind of gameplay and don't give a damn that you're not as effective as you could be.

Am I right?


Do I even need to mention how hypocritical this is when saying the magic word "kick"?

You have several ways to kill an FC fast, but you choose not to use them. Is it really Raven's fault?

Get this, in JO NF duelling, if I complained that it was very tough to beat a competetive player who knew how to use red stance and evade my attacks - would it be fair if you said "Just kick him?" Would it be fair if you said "Just suck it up?"

If kicks were enabled and me and my opponent's strategies revolved around kicks (due to them being the most effective attacks on a cost/benefit analysis), would it make sense to say that the kicks had actually dumbed down the game, limited our combat repetoire and turned the game into a more advanced form of Pong?

i was using your own "this is starwars" argument against you. read it again and you may comprehend.

like i said it is a totally new dynamic. hell if this game had no mention of starwars or anything it entails and sabers were really "energy swords" i would enjoy it more. why? because when a game has starwars attached you get little kids and old men complaining about how un-realistic and un-movie like it is.

we play sabers because it is a completely different dynamic than any other game out there. and i don't recall anyone saying that they don't like starwars. its just that we live in this thing called the real world and in this world, the games aren't the same as the movies. we know where to draw the "OMFG SHOULD B LIEK STARWARZ MOVIEZ!!1" line.

we like starwars. so what? we know that this is a game and not a movie simulation. we're just waiting on the rest of you to realize that too.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Krause
Hehe, this reminds of of the discussions we had on the day of defeat boards regarding jump-shooting. Anyway high-level clan players usualy do know what they are talking about simply because they spend more time playing the game then anyone else. HOWEVER you should keep in mind that they are only a very small portion of the entire playerbase. Personally i wouldn't object against an optional return of the kick as long as it only does limited or no damage at all.

(on a side note. the entire concept of playing ctf with meelee weapons only seems kinda silly to me. Insta-gib all the way ;))

very small player base? try hundreds if not THOUSANDS of people.

Comm539
09-23-2003, 03:38 PM
You people keep blurting out the same 'suggestions' because you think you know best. Sabers can be instant killers, but first you have to find a way to stop the fc (who runs).
We don't want kicks back as a weapon to kill people, we need them as a way to be able to kill someone. Kicks do 20 hp damage max, sometimes less. Now how is this the 'easiest way to kill someone?' I personally find a quick red hack far more efficient. Kicks are needed though, to actually stop someone, so you can finish him with sabers. I would suggest no damage kicks, but this would also remove some strategy from ctf. Perhaps toggleable, and damage selectable kicks.

And again we explain why kicks are needed and the old "duh shoot him with this big gun"

This is star wars: Many people have pointed out use sabers (therefore not guns)

There's many gun games much better than the gun physics in JA. Raven has focused on sabers, although admittedly has removed most intricity they had worked so hard to build up in JK2.

Gun ctf is just spamming shots

Aimbots make gun ctf pointless

dyehead
09-23-2003, 03:41 PM
BTW -- They used DFA in episode 2

That female jedi with the worm head leaps over some pillar and hacks a robot in two with the DFA..

C'jais
09-23-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
like i said it is a totally new dynamic.

Strawman alert!

Don't evade the subject - my and many other's opinion is that games without kicks are a whole new (and better) dynamic as well.

We don't want to use kicks to defeat our foes more easily, even though it's there to be used.

You do the same with guns.

Comm539: There are many, far better kung fu games as well. That's not a very good point you're raising, and you're both shooting yourself in the foot right now.

Just because it needed to be said as well: Guns have been a very important part of the JK franchise, and of star wars in general.

WadeV1589
09-23-2003, 03:47 PM
You people keep blurting out the same 'suggestions' because you think you know best. Sabers can be instant killers, but first you have to find a way to stop the fc (who runs).And you keep blurting out the same old crap about how bad it is to not have kicks in this NON JO game. So don't go around saying we're repeating ourselves when you're the ones with thread upon thread about kicks!

Oh and to kick them you had to catch up with them, if you can catch up with them, you can increase saber damage and do one hit kills, why is that not a solution? If you want it like Star Wars, sabers should be able to kill with one slice anyhow and seen as it's your only weapon in s/o CTF then why not have one kill shots? Personally I think that adds to the realism AND gives you a way to stop fc's, no doubt you will still complain though.

Prime
09-23-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Destino
BTW - as it stands JKJA is crap, when HL2 comes out look for 60% of the ladders, leagues, etc. to vanish unless the game flow is improved drastically. If that is what they want to do, it's fine. Those of us who don't play in those things won't know that they are gone anyways.

HL2 is now projected to be out by the Holidays.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 03:50 PM
i never evaded the subject.

the dynamic is totally exellent for NO FORCE and GUNS.

FULL FORCE on the other hand has been rendered unplayable because of the lack of ways to kill someone who is not some random newb or casual player, but a top player who does not want to die. be it duel or ctf or any other gametype.

you like saber only? good, we do too. we also like force. it adds a whole different gameplay dynamic.

it woudl be the same if it wasn't a starwars game and used energy swords and magic spells.

as i recall i see no-one saying they hate starwars.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
And you keep blurting out the same old crap about how bad it is to not have kicks in this NON JO game. So don't go around saying we're repeating ourselves when you're the ones with thread upon thread about kicks!

Oh and to kick them you had to catch up with them, if you can catch up with them, you can increase saber damage and do one hit kills, why is that not a solution? If you want it like Star Wars, sabers should be able to kill with one slice anyhow and seen as it's your only weapon in s/o CTF then why not have one kill shots? Personally I think that adds to the realism AND gives you a way to stop fc's, no doubt you will still complain though.

you didn't have to stop moving to kick, and the first half of a kick is used to go FATER, as in the first tap. its called strafe jumping.

C'jais
09-23-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
FULL FORCE on the other hand has been rendered unplayable because of the lack of ways to kill someone who is not some random newb or casual player, but a top player who does not want to die. be it duel or ctf or any other gametype.

Oh, so this is not about s/o CTF at all, really? It's that the force is unbalanced now?

If they drain you, use absorb. If they use absorb, cut them to bits. If they run, pursue.

Prime
09-23-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
Oh and to kick them you had to catch up with them, if you can catch up with them, you can increase saber damage and do one hit kills, why is that not a solution? If you want it like Star Wars, sabers should be able to kill with one slice anyhow and seen as it's your only weapon in s/o CTF then why not have one kill shots? Personally I think that adds to the realism AND gives you a way to stop fc's, no doubt you will still complain though. I don't want the old kicks added to JA, but I would be perfectly happy with the upped lightsaber damage as you describe above. This has been suggested many times already, and it is very easy to implement (1 cvar). But this solution has been universally frowned upon by the competative S/O CTF community.

Pyro
09-23-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Oh, so this is not about s/o CTF at all, really? It's that the force is unbalanced now?

If they drain you, use absorb. If they use absorb, cut them to bits. If they run, pursue.


[ Stop with the flame bait. ]

C'jais
09-23-2003, 04:28 PM
Somebody ate his mean cookies for breakfast this morning.

Originally posted by Pyro
USE ABSORB TO COUNTER DRAIN? WHAT? DO YOU REALIZE THAT DRAINER CAN JUST WAIT FOR YOUR ABSORB TO RUN OUT AND THEN END UP WITH AN EVEN *GREATER* FORCE PARITY ADVANTAGE THAN IF HE HAD JUST DRAINED?

That trick worked just as well in JO. There's nothing new to fleeing and waiting until the absorb runs out. If you think kick was the only valid option to countering this, good on you. JA has got more than enough moves to deal with this.

BTW, I was talking about duel and FFA here, you seem to think that me and Rumor were still discussing s/o CTF, but we're not. He apparently thinks the problem is with Full force balance issues, whereas I previously thought it was about kicks in s/o CTF.

DO YOU REALIZE THAT AN ABSORBING SPEEDING FC'ER CANNOT BE "CUT TO BITS" IF YOU CAN'T STOP HIM?

Gee, haven't we just been discussing this?

AND BY THE WAY, *THANK* YOU FOR THE EXPERT TIP OF "IF THEY RUN, PURSUE", WE HADN'T THOUGHT OF THAT YET.

Well then, lets stop this circle jerk and go use guns on those damn people running away from us, instead of sitting here and whining that Raven doesn't cater to the way we limit ourselves, shall we?

Kurgan
09-23-2003, 04:34 PM
Why does every thread on kicks have to turn into a flame war?

I'm getting really sick of closing these threads on account of people not controlling their tempers.

It's possible to have a debate on this without resorting to petty flames and/or name calling.

Sigh...

If somebody insults you, DON'T respond in kind, report the post and it will be edited by a moderator and the person warned.

Imperial_thug
09-23-2003, 04:37 PM
I think it's kinda silly that they put in all these moves and counters that you can do in case that you are knocked down, but then there is no way to knock someone down unless you have the Darth Maul saber. I think everyone should have some kind of knockdown move. I don't think kick would hurt anything because you can attack or evade from a knockdown position now. Most ppl that hate a certain move in the game are the same ppl who do not know how to counter it. I would like to see kick return, I think the game needs it.

Mordred
09-23-2003, 04:43 PM
Well i did try a suggestion that other games have used, to disable surtain things well carrying the flag.

in this case force speed.

but was told thats no good they want kick.

personaly i think it would make the game better, as it was far to easy to get the flag a run force speed and absorb to get away with it. and the other team would do the same and it came down to which team returned the flag first.

but thats just my take on it.

Comm539
09-23-2003, 05:15 PM
Aswell as slowing the game, nurfing things affects balance.
Just for example, you take speed out for an fc. You flag gets returned, you can be outrun by anymember of the opposite team, even if you started in front of them. This would probably lead to an fc never being able to cap.
We don't want nurfing, we just want to readd a feature that was worable and still will be.

Saber moves do more damage and are easier than kicks, so i believe kicks would no longer be spammed. Also, if you argue against kicks being readded, then you must also argue for the removal of katas butterflies, stab rolls and everything else people like to whore.
*But you can counter them* I hear you say. The same is true for kicks, just that you never bothered to learn how.

kazesan
09-23-2003, 05:25 PM
Kicks make duels and FFAs less fun. I really don't want to see kicks in either of those game modes because it would really ruin a good thing. (FFA is almost perfect IMO) However I don't think people should start flame wars because of people wanting an option in one game type with specific rules.

Server side option to enable kick in CTF or more specifically S/O FF CTF great I agree 100% for people who want kick back in that gametype. I never play that gametype so I wouldn't care. As long as there are not tons of FFA servers with people whoring kick I am fine with it being in CTF. Don't mess up my gametypes and I won't mess up yours. ;)

Ardent
09-23-2003, 05:51 PM
Can anyone give me a straight-forward answer as to why JO's kicks were bad aside from "it's not Star Wars?"

BTW, based on a cost/return analysis, cost/return analysises were found to be the least cost-effective way of determining anything.

Go out there and practice for a bit with kicking. Learn how to gauge when someone comes into your range, and then go find a saber only ctf game there aren't a lot of competitive players in (there are a few out there). Now tell me that kicking someone down and red hacking them as the followup isn't the only way to kill an FC who knows what they're doing. When an FC is in transition across a level, there are plenty of opportunities for ambush and pulling and all that stuff. But once they've reached their base, chances are they can easily avoid stuff like pitfalls and ambushes. Which leaves a well-time kick more or less the only option.

What hurts almost as bad as the loss of kick is the loss of hitbox for the red dfa (which already had a ridiculously small hitbox as of JO 1.04 and now has a nearly non-existant one in JA), which was one of the other tactics used to nail an FC. Before it required a small bit of luck and a good deal of thought to nail an FC with red DFA. Now it takes Han Solo-esque luck and a lot of patience. I've found I have better luck with the yellow DFA. Which I SHOULDN'T, as theoretically it's a weaker attack.

Now, as far as the what is and what isn't Star Wars issue. Star Wars, specifically the Jedi Knight franchise, offers players two things all other FPS games do not: force powers and lightsabers (e.g. a true in-depth melee combat mode). Now I realize this may not have occured to a lot of people but...ff saber only player satisfaction should be just as important as the ff gunner's and the nf s/o's and the opinions of nf gunners should be ignored.

FF S/O players are utilizing ONLY what is unique to the JK franchise. If we wanted to blow people up with guns, we'd go play something else (something with a better guns engine, frankly). BF1942, Counterstrike, Wolfenstein...whatever. They're out there. But what we want is to cut our friends up into itty-bitty pieces and have fun doing it. Which is something only the JK franchise offers. Kicks, when used by competitive level players in matches, aren't a spam-whore tactic used to annoy other players (because it doesn't work on another comp-level player), they're a genuine tactical attack strung together with saber combinations. But if you make them impossible to execute (literally, with two of the three saber styles and figuratively with the saberstaff form) you remove THIRTY-THREE PERCENT OF OUR ABILITY TO ENGAGE THE ENEMY and darn near 80% of our situation tactics.

Would you be happy if Raven told you they're removing 33% of everything about guns? I doubt it. Beginning to understand why we're so upset?

It's not that we think we're better (in most cases, we flat out are), it's not that we think we're more important as customers (we're just in the best position to judge the game based on what makes it unique) and it's not that we're out to flame anyone (but everyone seems to like to bait us...including people that shouldn't be). We just want the tool we feel we need to play the game the way we want to. You already have the game you want. Why are YOU complaining?

FurionStormrage
09-23-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
Can anyone give me a straight-forward answer as to why JO's kicks were bad aside from "it's not Star Wars?"

Because kicks, as implemented, produced more damage than a well-placed sabre blow. This is stupid.

I would agree wholeheartedly to place kicks back in the game if:

1) Kicks were blockable from the front
2) Did not go "straight to health"
3) Did not damage more than a sabre WHEN THE OTHER PLAYER CAN DEFEND.
4) Sabre damage is increased (it's rediculously low right now)

Because a knocked-down player now has some options for getting away from a kick this may now be a valid addition with the above caveats.

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
mojopin...all you do is roll with absorb on..and push around if you want :rolleyes:


and i wouldnt be callin the best full force saber only dueler a wimp :eek:





He’s right; it's simple evasive tactics and prediction.

No different that dodging saber swings manually rather than relying on the auto block.

you know how you duel people can kind of "sense" when that guy is about to lead in with a swing or you see the wind up or he positions himself in a way where you just know what is about to happen?

Same for kicks.

I know a lot of people don't see it that way but there is as much of an "art form" to kick mastery, both offensive and defensive as there is sabering.

Now if you say that is absurd, I ask you this:

Just "knowing all the swings" makes for an elite dueler?

Of course not.

And kicks are no different.

There is a hell of a lot more there than meets the eye other than "tap tap".


And as for the #1 comment, I can't take that.

Break_dF was top dog by a long shot in JO and if he puts the same time and effort he did into JA, it will be no different.

:mad:

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by WadeV1589


The s/o CTF "community" don't like their skills being removed because they feel it will reduce their ability to that of us mere average players *coughs*. I think it's more fear that they may start to get beaten as other people find new ways and they don't than an actual complaint about kick.

Wrong again.

I'm about at the point where I just want to do a few matches and demo them of me playing you people in JA and murdering you, then me playing someone like screed or the div3rse guys and it being a 20 minute stalemate to drive it home into you people that you are by no means even part of our concern.

I’m serious on this one,

Who wants a 1v1 match with me?

I will take any of you “adapt and learn” people and show you just how much more you have to learn.

No flames, just a friendly beat down into the world of reality for those who want to see what we are talking about.

Any takers?

Prime
09-23-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Because kicks, as implemented, produced more damage than a well-placed sabre blow. This is stupid.

I would agree wholeheartedly to place kicks back in the game if:

1) Kicks were blockable from the front
2) Did not go "straight to health"
3) Did not damage more than a sabre WHEN THE OTHER PLAYER CAN DEFEND.
4) Sabre damage is increased (it's rediculously low right now)

Because a knocked-down player now has some options for getting away from a kick this may now be a valid addition with the above caveats. These suggestions have been turned down by competative CTF players many times. I'd be happy with them though :)

dyehead
09-23-2003, 06:22 PM
I'd be happy if kick did 0 damage but knocked people down. I think all kick-haters share the idea that we want to use kick as a means of dealing damage.

We just want to be able to stop the fc's momentum, as it is now, as has been stated 500 billion times, you can NOT stop a flag carrier who knows what he's doing without the help of lag/stupidity.

Having kick for the light staff only is pretty stupid imo, I'd gladly trade saber throw for kick.

Ardent
09-23-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Because kicks, as implemented, produced more damage than a well-placed sabre blow. This is stupid.

Turn the kick damage down to 0 on your server. I know at least one game was played this way by the comp community. It didn't really change the game.

I would agree wholeheartedly to place kicks back in the game if:

You lost me at if. Just attach your feedback on what kicks should and shouldn't do thanks.

1) Kicks were blockable from the front

I'll cover this one: ever fenced? Practiced any form of swordplay? Ever done so in a tournament? Ever done so in a freestyle tournament? I have. Kicking someone in the leg (groin, knee and top of the foot are off limits, or I'd choose those) is a fairly common tactic. When your attention is on your opponent's blade (particularly at the point where it's most likely to impact with you) you can't afford to split your attention to watch for something like a kick. Instead, most sword styles teach you how to react to when you're kicked. So I suppose, if Raven liked me idea of making kick a Force skill (so you'd choose between saber throw and kick, likely), a higher kick skill means you better cope with being kicked.

2) Did not go "straight to health"

How's your personal shield going to stop an attack that's coming from inside it? The damage isn't from kinetic energy...it's from the weight of the impact. Which isn't affected by a kinetic deflection shield, when you get right down to the physics behind it. Sure, it might slow them down a little, but it doesn't slow anything else down, so why would it slow a kick down? Not that I'd mind not having any damage at all if it would just be capitalizable.

3) Did not damage more than a sabre WHEN THE OTHER PLAYER CAN DEFEND.

Blocking is still broken in JA. I'd worry about that before worrying about what sort of damage kick can do.

4) Sabre damage is increased (it's rediculously low right now)

You know, I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that.

Because a knocked-down player now has some options for getting away from a kick this may now be a valid addition with the above caveats.

Well, with the caveat of those options changing based on the re-addition of kicks, I think re-including kick will be vital to the strength of the FF S/O community. Maybe a quick move timer on it or something. I dunno. I just want kicking back. </3

Nobody responded to the latter 80% of my previous post...any takers?

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 06:38 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with them doing 0 damage for one reason:

This affects a lot more people than CTF, primarily duelers (full force).

For CTF people, flip on absorb, kick+ dfa is a valid and often used tactic.

For us duel people it's pure suicide.

A 1v1 environment does not have the frantic chaos a team based match does and people simply don’t get killed by things like that when you can focus 100% of you attention on a single player.

Kicks in duels are used in a totally different manner than they are in CTF as well.

For us they simply must cause damage because full force dueling basically revolves around this core strategy:


Take a shot to the face, let a guy hit you with a 50+ damage combo, but never, ever put yourself in a position where you have less force than him.

Note I said force, not health.

Drain is the great equalizer in full force dueling so really health is not a big concern so long as you keep your hp at about at least 51 (so as to not die from an instant PTK combo).

True hardcore full force dueling is a "cat and mouse" game where each opponent saves up his pool for one massive barrage of combos to finish the guy off in a single shot.

If you don't instantly kill him with that onslaught, you better run like hell or stay on the offensive with kicks and fast damage moves like lunges because he's going to start drain whoring you the second you gets up from your attack and you need to prevent him from draining back to 100 hp by causing fast, incremental damage to offset the drain attack.

The only way to do that is to continue causing damage and simple basic saber swings are not going to cut it in that type of game with two people of that skill level.

=X=Master HeX
09-23-2003, 06:39 PM
Why play saber only Full Force CTF? One word can sum that all up: AIMBOTS...

Just look around for some and I assure you there are working ones for JK2. Use them with a saber and you have very little advantage. This is why saber only ctf is so competitive... Short of someone using scripts (which every competition clan member can tell you are not as good as a human doing the move) there are very little cheats that would make a difference in a match.

Flashblade
09-23-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
(e.g. a true in-depth melee combat mode)

ROFLMAO this one sure is funny as hell :D

Comm539
09-23-2003, 06:41 PM
It's kinda like saying 'remove red stance down hack because its unblockable'. Well yes, kicks are unblockable, but like a hack, you just have to avoid them. The best defence for being kicked is to avoid the kick. Its very simple. I noticed that the main reasons why people get upset because they got kicked is because they're in some rush to run and start humping the guys leg. Keep your distance.

I find it highly ironic that people can moan about a 20hp damge kick being whored, when the same people admit to whoring katas, butterflies, rollstab and just a basic spamming of swings.
Why do you do it? Because it to some extent works (atm certainly). Why do we kick...becuase it works. You fall for it, get knocked over, don't know who to get up/counter a groundkill and become an easy kill.
You go to all this trouble explaining why your inadiquacies mean you get kicked to death. In the same time it takes to right that post, you could've learnt how to dodge and survive kicks forever.

This is all highly irrelevant anyway. Its a toggle kick patch. You don't have to have them.

And if admins do add them, it'll be trhough popularity. And even if its not, go moan about people whoring unblockable, instant kill katas and rollstabs instead of something that takes 20hp.

the weiner dog!
09-23-2003, 06:56 PM
aimbots, heh.

nah Hex I can tell you why I play ff/so.

It's fast paced like a shooter, but the sloppy random element of gun games is eliminated.

Don't get me wrong, I love FPS's.

I play UT2003, Quake 3, RTCW ET and many others.

But in Jedi Outcast, like a lot of people who came from games like Quake 3, I think the guns are very sloppy and poorly designed.

The things that turned me off are:

No "instagib" weapon like a quake 3 rail gun.
Sure the sniper gun can cause heavy instant damage but you need to come to a dead stop, zoom in, charge it up...then fire.

For me slower pace = something I don't want.

And I'm serious about the overall slow pace of JK2/JA guns.

Even with things like force speed, a game of Quake 3 CTF is 3 times faster paced than any game of JK2/JA could hope to be.

Things like the instant kill rail, superior rocket launcher and overall faster game physics contribute to that.



The rocket launcher is much slower than rocket launchers from other games and again, the slow pace turns me off.

The repeater is not bad in alt fire mode, but primary is a waste of time.


The Golan is actually the only gun I can get into because it reminds me a lot of the flak cannon from Unreal Tournament.

But overall, the sup par weapons and the slower pace just turns me off so I don’t play it.

Comm539
09-23-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
And you keep blurting out the same old crap about how bad it is to not have kicks in this NON JO game. So don't go around saying we're repeating ourselves when you're the ones with thread upon thread about kicks!

Oh and to kick them you had to catch up with them, if you can catch up with them, you can increase saber damage and do one hit kills, why is that not a solution? If you want it like Star Wars, sabers should be able to kill with one slice anyhow and seen as it's your only weapon in s/o CTF then why not have one kill shots? Personally I think that adds to the realism AND gives you a way to stop fc's, no doubt you will still complain though.


You obviously do not play s/o ctf (or know little about the games physics). Kicking is an instant move, along with pull, you can be quite close (although not caught up to them) and make contact (and kick).
Saber swinging slows you down. Since you cannot pull whilst you are swinging, you would need to be ahead of the fc and by the time the saber swung you would make contact. However, this can be easily evaded.
Kicking can stop/slow someone from behind, which is the issue here. A saber cannot.

Pyro
09-23-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Wrong again.

I'm about at the point where I just want to do a few matches and demo them of me playing you people in JA and murdering you, then me playing someone like screed or the div3rse guys and it being a 20 minute stalemate to drive it home into you people that you are by no means even part of our concern.

I’m serious on this one,

Who wants a 1v1 match with me?

I will take any of you “adapt and learn” people and show you just how much more you have to learn.

No flames, just a friendly beat down into the world of reality for those who want to see what we are talking about.

Any takers?

I ACCEPT UR CHALLENGE SIR I WILL WIN U WITH MY KATA + SPIDERMAN WALL GRAB

megafu
09-23-2003, 07:12 PM
i would gladly play you 1v1 wiener dog, just one problem, i returned my copy of JA couple days ago. Or else I'd show you how long a mathc can really LAST!

FurionStormrage
09-23-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
Turn the kick damage down to 0 on your server. I know at least one game was played this way by the comp community. It didn't really change the game.

Ah, yes. Turn it down on MY server. I think I play on PUBLIC SERVERS; logically I do not control said servers.


You lost me at if. Just attach your feedback on what kicks should and shouldn't do thanks.

Has it occured to you that adding kick back in AS IS in JO requires a rebalance elsewhere? If you want kick as it is then my suggestions are what I would like to see if you get what you want. I compromise; you compromise; we both win.


I'll cover this one: ever fenced? Practiced any form of swordplay? Ever done so in a tournament? Ever done so in a freestyle tournament? I have. Kicking someone in the leg (groin, knee and top of the foot are off limits, or I'd choose those) is a fairly common tactic. When your attention is on your opponent's blade (particularly at the point where it's most likely to impact with you) you can't afford to split your attention to watch for something like a kick. Instead, most sword styles teach you how to react to when you're kicked. So I suppose, if Raven liked me idea of making kick a Force skill (so you'd choose between saber throw and kick, likely), a higher kick skill means you better cope with being kicked.


If you can't take the time to watch for anything from your opponent you have no business being in the ring, tournament or otherwise. :D If you or I were to use swords and you tried to kick me I can vouch for the fact that your leg would be twitching on the ground because I would CUT IT OFF. As JO is now, the only way out of a kick is to move. That doesn't track.


How's your personal shield going to stop an attack that's coming from inside it? The damage isn't from kinetic energy...it's from the weight of the impact. Which isn't affected by a kinetic deflection shield, when you get right down to the physics behind it. Sure, it might slow them down a little, but it doesn't slow anything else down, so why would it slow a kick down? Not that I'd mind not having any damage at all if it would just be capitalizable.

Kinetic energy (when you get down to the physics of it) is a combination of mass and velocity. Weight (in your example) is just a translation of mass impacting a body "at rest". If you can deflect the mass then you can reduce the kinetic energy.


Blocking is still broken in JA. I'd worry about that before worrying about what sort of damage kick can do.

Then I'd rather see them FIX blocking with a patch than introduce a potential gameplay imbalance with a requested feature.


Well, with the caveat of those options changing based on the re-addition of kicks, I think re-including kick will be vital to the strength of the FF S/O community. Maybe a quick move timer on it or something. I dunno. I just want kicking back. </3

I understand you want kicking back. I personally don't want it back as it was implemented in JO. I guess we're in partial agreement. Well, it's a start if compromise is going to work. :)


Nobody responded to the latter 80% of my previous post...any takers?

Someone other than me can pick up the guantlet...

darth_michael
09-23-2003, 09:26 PM
The problem with the JO kick seems fairly obvious to me, but then again this is just my opinion:

It was too damn spammable. It was quick and easy to pull off, had a huge hit box, and you had complete control of what what you were doing at all times. The secondary problem was that the act of spamming kick also rendered you very difficult to hit by conventional means, like with a regular saber swing, on account of you bunny hopping all over the place like a madman (yes, here is where you call me a n00b who doesn't know how to play the game, and tell me how you're so good that you could counter a kick spammer in your sleep). Thus, the only truly effective counter to kick spam was with kick spam.

Now, you say "what's the difference between spamming kick and spamming katas, butterflies, etc.?" Well, again, in my mind this is trivially obvious: NONE of the katas are even REMOTELY as easy to spam as kick was. As many folks have pointed out, every single kata has both an "engaged" phase (where you're actually doing the kata) and a "cool down" phase (where you're wide open for a few moments after finishing the kata). Frankly, for most of them there's even a "wind up" phase, where you're basically telegraphing the fact that you're about to do a kata (ALL of the staff katas definitely have this... before a butterfly, or the spinning one, or any of them, you take a step backwards or something before you launch yourself). So in dealing with someone who is trying to kata you, you have time before the kata starts to do something about it, time while it's happening to get out of the way, and time after it's done to implement an appropriate counter attack. Compare this to kick... kick is instantly delivered, requires no "wind up" time, takes no time to execute, and has little (if any) "cool down" time. You could spam at least 5 kicks in the time it takes to do ONE butterfly kata.

So there's my technical argument why spamming kicks is different than spamming katas. Here's my emotional argument: you mention that kicks were avoidable (if you "took the time to learn" or, to translate to what you really mean, "if you weren't a total n00b"), and I agree with this. What I don't agree with is that I should have to spend ALL MY TIME avoiding them at all! I did not buy JK or JA to spend every second rolling away from some bunny hopping monkey and worrying about getting up off the ground every five seconds. And I certainly didn't buy the games to fight people like I'm some kind of bunny hopping monkey. I played to use sabers like in Stars Wars. I'm sorry, I just did. Call me n00b, fanboy, whatever. If I wanted bunny hopping, there's PLENTY of other games where I could get my fill of it. My feelings towards the kick are almost identical to my feelings towards rocket launchers in almost every other game, and the whole "instagib" mentality (ok, I don't mind the rocket launcher in games like standard Quake and UT, but I tell you, I won't play Wolfenstein anymore where you bust your ass with your "real life" WWII machine gun, only to get instaSMOKED by some fool with a panzerfaust (or whatever it's called), as if ANYONE IN A REAL WAR EVER USED FRIGGING ROCKETLAUNCHERS AGAINST INDIVIDUAL INFANTRY UNITS... sorry, I get a little emotional when I think about this crap).

So anyways, that's the difference between kick and kata. Kick is spammy, nearly unavoidable nonsense that only begets more spammy nonsense. Couple this with the fact that the risk vs. reward for using kick was waaaay out of whack (ie. zero risk, very good reward), and that the difficulty of use vs. reward was WAAAAAY out of whack (anyone who could spam a spacebar can be good with kicks, and again, very good reward) and maybe you start to see the problem?

I would be all for bringing kick back if it was implemented like a kata (or, frankly, like the staff jumpkick, only slightly more effective). What I like about katas is that they well balanced in risk and difficulty of use vs. reward. You need to be a little clever when using them to both hit people and avoid ending up in an ugly situation. This was most definitely not the case with kick. Make it the case and I'd be happy to have it back, otherwise keep it the hell out of the new game.

JaledDur
09-23-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]

tell me one scene where you see them change saber styles, do a dfa, lunge, yellow dfa, any kata, a cartwheel


Well, Anakin has to win in Ep3 SOMEHOW....

darth_michael
09-23-2003, 09:48 PM
Sorry, I need to add one more thing...

I expect a response along the lines of "this is only for s/o CTF, shove off!", "it would be toggleable, so you don't have to worry if you don't like it", and "kicks won't be spammed since there are so many other moves now".

That last one I already dealt with in my previos post, so I'll only add that to honestly believe that kick wouldn't be spammed is a joke. If it can be spammed, it will be spammed.

As for the first two, I reiterate what some have said already: if it is toggleable, I suspect we will soon find that nearly every server will have it toggled on. You might say that this reflects the will of the players, but I disagree. This may sound inflammatory, but I suspect that for the most part, 90% of servers are run by the sub-18 year old script kiddie crowd. I don't want to promote any unfair stereotypes, but I'm going to say that these are exactly the type of people who like things like kick, rocket launchers, instagib, and spammy gameplay in general. And as far as playing JA goes, I am at their mercy. I have to play on their servers, since I don't have one of my own. And I'm more likely not to play JA at all than do what it takes to put up my own server. BUT I DON'T WANT IT TO COME TO THAT. I want to be able to play the game the way I like it (and, frankly, the way I think it was designed to be played), without having to get my own server or without having to spend unreasonable amounts of time tracking down the few servers that run the game sans spam.

All in all, having it as a toggle makes puts the power of spam in the hands of the server admins, and I don't think the will of the server admins = the will of the players. If we just keep kick out, we don't have this problem. Yes, some people will be upset and stop playing. But for ONCE, PRETTY PLEASE, could it be the spammers, script kiddies, etc., that are forced out, rather than the regular shmucks like me that just want to play a damn game the way it was designed to played? I'm so tired of having to give up on perfectly good games that have degenerated into spamming inanity because, for lack of a better description, the "kids" have taken over.

[div3rse.jello]
09-23-2003, 10:49 PM
stop spamming walking...omg omg cheator lamer noob

Ardent
09-23-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Ah, yes. Turn it down on MY server. I think I play on PUBLIC SERVERS; logically I do not control said servers.

Then you're in the same position we've been. You have to hunt down a server with the settings you like. Hopefully soon we'll have enough servers up that we can set them up how we like, but it still doesn't address a lot of the "balance fixes" that ruin ff s/o gameplay.

Has it occured to you that adding kick back in AS IS in JO requires a rebalance elsewhere? If you want kick as it is then my suggestions are what I would like to see if you get what you want. I compromise; you compromise; we both win.

Why would it? They had to remove it in the first place and that created an imbalance. They can just toss whatever it was they decided "balanced out" the loss of 33% of our arsenal.

If you can't take the time to watch for anything from your opponent you have no business being in the ring, tournament or otherwise. :D If you or I were to use swords and you tried to kick me I can vouch for the fact that your leg would be twitching on the ground because I would CUT IT OFF. As JO is now, the only way out of a kick is to move. That doesn't track.

Hardly. If you're paying attention to something as petty as a kick (at worst a takedown if you have the first clue about defense...usually little more than a bruise otherwise) then you're leaving yourself open to an attack from your opponent's primary mode of offense: their weapon. If you and I were to use swords, you'd quickly find yourself sorely out-classed, I think. In order to compete in a freestyle tournament you need to be an acknowledged master of at least one form. As far as my kicking you...if you saw it coming, it wouldn't be coming (if you'll excuse the Tzuism). I'd be attacking where you weren't looking. As JO is now, there are plenty of ways to avoid a kick. Probably the best is to learn how to kick better than your opponent.

Kinetic energy (when you get down to the physics of it) is a combination of mass and velocity. Weight (in your example) is just a translation of mass impacting a body "at rest". If you can deflect the mass then you can reduce the kinetic energy.

Impact of mass against a body at rest, if you want to get into the nitty-gritty, is more than enough to cause damage most of the time. When you're talking about 50-100kg individuals, it's more than enough. A kinetic barrier which isn't at the layer of the skin (and it's obviously not...it's a spherical barrier surrounding the Jedi) can't protect someone against the impact of mass against their being. It can't even reduce the velocity noticeably at that point, as it's primary plane of deflection is outside of where most of the motion takes place. You really don't want to get into physics with me. ;)

Then I'd rather see them FIX blocking with a patch than introduce a potential gameplay imbalance with a requested feature.

Do you ask for less on your plate when you're hungrier?

I understand you want kicking back. I personally don't want it back as it was implemented in JO. I guess we're in partial agreement. Well, it's a start if compromise is going to work. :)

Of course I want kicking back. It's integral to ff s/o ctf which is a significant share of the JO community (dare I say -- at least 33%). Which is a significant portion of sales LA/Raven was counting on.

Rumor
09-23-2003, 11:08 PM
script kiddies? dude, scripts don't help as much as you really think they do. the best kickers play natural. not only that the competitive players most likely played games like q3 where scripting is a big tradition, and just about everyone has some form of script. they accept that, then move on. scripts don't make you some godly player, and a lot of times, they hinder your play. when i first started ff/so dueling i got ahold of a ptk script. i found out that i could do it 100x more effectively manually (yes, even on my pos 56k AOL modem.) because i wasn't fixed into one set pattern. i could do the ptk from a distance, up close, and combine it with other moves for high damage combos (upwards of 200 hp if you could get that much hp) and finish off my opponents. not until i got rid of that script did i improve. i was dependant on it and did not learn a damn thing until i ditched it.

darth_michael
09-24-2003, 05:37 PM
Heh, Ardent... this is going to sound like a flame, but I can't help myself. Your "you really don't want to get in to physics with me" comment made me laugh out loud, mainly because (and I'm speaking as a physicist, believe it or not) your first physics comment was complete nonsense and your second one wasn't much better. :)

That being said, I won't get in to an argument about it because of the following reasons: wtf is a "kinetic barrier" really? Who's to say the "barrier" exists only at the surface of the sphere (in fact, I don't see how it would be possible to project a field that only exists as a "shell" as opposed to a "solid" sphere)? Who's to say the visual effect we see in multiplayer actually represents what the field looks like "in reality" (in SP the shield effect is nearly skin-tight)? Assuming a shell, what makes you think the kick originates from inside the shell? The mass has to come in from somewhere, and the shell doesn't extend more than a foot or so around the player. Assuming a shell again, how do any of the player's attacks make it through the shield on the way out? How can you make any statements about how effective the velocity reduction of the shield is when the shield itself a completely hypothetical construct?

Get what I'm saying? The whole idea of a "kinetic barrier" in this context is so implausable that it makes no sense to speak about the physics of it, or how "realistic" it is. The most "realistic" description of a kinetic barrie I can imagine would be some kind of dampening field that applies a force that opposes the velocity of any massive particle(s) that enter the area of effect, like being encased in a sphere of water or something. But again, this begs the question, how does the shield user move around inside his own shield??? Crazy!!!

Hee hee!

Rumor
09-24-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by darth_michael
Heh, Ardent... this is going to sound like a flame, but I can't help myself. Your "you really don't want to get in to physics with me" comment made me laugh out loud, mainly because (and I'm speaking as a physicist, believe it or not) your first physics comment was complete nonsense and your second one wasn't much better. :)

That being said, I won't get in to an argument about it because of the following reasons: wtf is a "kinetic barrier" really? Who's to say the "barrier" exists only at the surface of the sphere (in fact, I don't see how it would be possible to project a field that only exists as a "shell" as opposed to a "solid" sphere)? Who's to say the visual effect we see in multiplayer actually represents what the field looks like "in reality" (in SP the shield effect is nearly skin-tight)? Assuming a shell, what makes you think the kick originates from inside the shell? The mass has to come in from somewhere, and the shell doesn't extend more than a foot or so around the player. Assuming a shell again, how do any of the player's attacks make it through the shield on the way out? How can you make any statements about how effective the velocity reduction of the shield is when the shield itself a completely hypothetical construct?

Get what I'm saying? The whole idea of a "kinetic barrier" in this context is so implausable that it makes no sense to speak about the physics of it, or how "realistic" it is. The most "realistic" description of a kinetic barrie I can imagine would be some kind of dampening field that applies a force that opposes the velocity of any massive particle(s) that enter the area of effect, like being encased in a sphere of water or something. But again, this begs the question, how does the shield user move around inside his own shield??? Crazy!!!

Hee hee!

then why does it damage your health and not your shields when you fall?

because its not a source of energy. thats what the shields "shield" against.

and realistic? sorry, its a game about starwars. its not realistic esp the fact that with our current technology there is no way to contain plasma, nor do "crystals" do the job. they don't have the em or gravitational pull necessary.

/edit: and now i remember to read the rest of your post lol. i guess we are saying the same thing about that then, eh?

Ardent
09-24-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by darth_michael
Heh, Ardent... this is going to sound like a flame, but I can't help myself. Your "you really don't want to get in to physics with me" comment made me laugh out loud, mainly because (and I'm speaking as a physicist, believe it or not) your first physics comment was complete nonsense and your second one wasn't much better. :)

Think so? Taken Theoretical Physics? Didn't think so.

That being said, I won't get in to an argument about it because of the following reasons: wtf is a "kinetic barrier" really?

A kinetic barrier is something their either dampens or deflects kinetic energy. In this case, it deflects, which means it operates on a plane of effect.

Who's to say the "barrier" exists only at the surface of the sphere (in fact, I don't see how it would be possible to project a field that only exists as a "shell" as opposed to a "solid" sphere)?

Well, if it was a "solid" sphere the person inside would be crushed by the force of the barrier itself, since it would want to fill the space the person occupies. But you know, me and my science, so silly really.

Who's to say the visual effect we see in multiplayer actually represents what the field looks like "in reality" (in SP the shield effect is nearly skin-tight)?

Is it? I don't know since I don't recall ever getting hit while I had shields and a saber out...but it's possible. That's just a leftover discrepency because two different teams developed the original SP and MP.

Assuming a shell, what makes you think the kick originates from inside the shell?

I dunno. Probably just all the animations that seem to indicate such. Nothing important, when you put it that way.

The mass has to come in from somewhere, and the shell doesn't extend more than a foot or so around the player.

Well the mass doesn't have to come from anywhere, because it's already present in the form of the person kicking your ass. But what you probably meant (and failed to convey) was that the mass somehow has to enter the kinetic barrier. Which is handled quite simply: a kinetic barrier would have a certain level of kinetic impact as it's "minimum" for affect. I mean, you wouldn't want your personal shield's screen being covered by splattered insects, would you? ;)

Assuming a shell again, how do any of the player's attacks make it through the shield on the way out?

Above.

How can you make any statements about how effective the velocity reduction of the shield is when the shield itself a completely hypothetical construct?

You mean like math? Or science? Math & science (i.e. what we're using to quantify these theoretical absolutes) are both hypothetical in nature. So go figure. It's one of those prerogatives that was exercised and continues to be exercised by people intelligent enough to understand that sort of thing.

Get what I'm saying? The whole idea of a "kinetic barrier" in this context is so implausable that it makes no sense to speak about the physics of it, or how "realistic" it is.

So, Mr. Intro-to-Physics, what would be the realistic explanation? It's just a bunch of doody tied to string that the Jedi whips around really fast when someone fires a blaster at them?

The most "realistic" description of a kinetic barrie I can imagine would be some kind of dampening field that applies a force that opposes the velocity of any massive particle(s) that enter the area of effect, like being encased in a sphere of water or something.

You're close, but you fail to understand that in order to function effectively as either a container or a decontainer, it would have to force its field of effect to be a plane, admittedly a spherical plane, but a plane nonetheless.

But again, this begs the question, how does the shield user move around inside his own shield??? Crazy!!!

I don't know. How do you get up in the morning?

Jed
09-24-2003, 06:17 PM
[div3rse.jello], consider yourself warned. Improve your posting habits.

Everyone else, take it down a notch, it's a game remember.

Kurgan
09-24-2003, 06:19 PM
Maybe it won't help this debate, but did any of you mess around with these in JA yet?


ChangKhan[Raven]

(Mike Gummelt of Raven Software)

(Originally posted on the Strategy Shack forums on 7/12/02, also various comments paraphrased)

ChangKhan[Raven] gives this advice:

"A reminder to dedicated server runners: I recommend that you set g_saberTraceSaberFirst to "1" only for duel modes, set it to "0" for all other modes. This will make the saber combat last longer (because blocks work more frequently) in duel mode, but they will be shorter in other modes."

He also says that g_SaberDamageScale 2 or 3 can be used for greater saber damage in non-Duel modes (like CTF where other weapons are present). Whereas a value of 1 is probably better for long-drawn out Duels.

When he says "Duel modes" I think he really means Sabers only modes (which includes most duels). You can check the command anytime by typing:

g_saberdamagescale (which the server option lists as "Multiplier for saber damage, does not modify 1-hitpoint damage done idly and in returns and such. For example, setting to 0.5 is half the normal damage, 2 is twice the normal damage") in the console and it will tell you what it's set to and the default for that gametype.

Prime
09-24-2003, 06:23 PM
In JO I played on a few servers where saber damage was set to 2 or 3. This improved things considerable in my opinion.

C'jais
09-24-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
Can anyone give me a straight-forward answer as to why JO's kicks were bad aside from "it's not Star Wars?"

Many answers to this has been given.

Now tell me that kicking someone down and red hacking them as the followup isn't the only way to kill an FC who knows what they're doing.

And that you can still do.

Which I SHOULDN'T, as theoretically it's a weaker attack.

Weaker, Schmeaker - the lunge and the kick are weaker attacks as well. But they both work marvelously, despite delivering less damage per hit.

Now, as far as the what is and what isn't Star Wars issue. Star Wars, specifically the Jedi Knight franchise, offers players two things all other FPS games do not: force powers and lightsabers (e.g. a true in-depth melee combat mode). Now I realize this may not have occured to a lot of people but...ff saber only player satisfaction should be just as important as the ff gunner's and the nf s/o's and the opinions of nf gunners should be ignored.

That's a ridiculous argument - because you utilize something unique to JK, it doesn't give you the right to decide what's best for the game.

Imagine if I used only the crowbar in halflife, the various jumping techniques in UT2k3 and the BFG in Q3 - would that give me somehow *more right* to play the game than others?

The opinions of nf gunners should be *ignored*? They paid just as much as you did for the game, and they have just as much right to play and complain about it. Perhaps all these gunners wanted was to play with star wars guns in the star wars universe. There are many, many melee combat games (with a spell system to boot), which makes this aspect of JK decidedly not unique - if you want a "true in-depth melee combat mode", go play those instead of saying certain people's opinions here should be ignored. This is daft.

Kicks,

Yes, kicks - kicks are something that is not unique to JK, and which have been done better and more "in-depth" in tons of other games. Go play them.

But if you make them impossible to execute (literally, with two of the three saber styles and figuratively with the saberstaff form) you remove THIRTY-THREE PERCENT OF OUR ABILITY TO ENGAGE THE ENEMY and darn near 80% of our situation tactics.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? You either have an ability to engage an enemy or you don't - you can't have less of it. Perhaps you're talking about the various ways you can do this, but then your "33%" becomes a joke. If you add up all the attacks with which you can engage an enemy, kicks constitute a very, very low percent of those. What would the remaining 66% of your ability to engage an enemy consist of? Throwing the saber and using the DFA - gee, what "in-depth" this is. That number is pulled out of nowhere, and so is the 80% of "your situation tactics". They don't mean anything.

It's not that we think we're better (in most cases, we flat out are)

Better at what? Certainly not at explaining your position in a sympathetic manner.

Your horse is getting a bit too high for me.

(we're just in the best position to judge the game based on what makes it unique)

How neat. Please back that up. And explain what's so important about it being unique, and why this is has any bearing on why a patch should be made.

and it's not that we're out to flame anyone (but everyone seems to like to bait us...including people that shouldn't be).

Of course, I'll have to infer that you CTF people do *Not. Ever. Flamebait.* And since this is so much horsedung, I won't even begin to adress the oh so subtle personal attack on the moderators.

We just want the tool we feel we need to play the game the way we want to. You already have the game you want. Why are YOU complaining?

You can have your kick for my sake, just so I enjoy the peace after you've left. But rest assured, I'll still be here and make fun of your ridiculous attempts at being diplomatic in front of Raven.

div3rse.draco
09-24-2003, 06:38 PM
Hey all. Some of you may know me as [div3rse.draco]. I have been playing JK2 since it came out and have seen every aspect of it. I've played 1.02, 1.03, 1.04 and the ctf both s/o and guns, ffa, and duels both nf and ff and in every case except the ctf gunners and nf duelers, kick is a major factor of the gametype. Due to the nature of JA and the heavy saber based system and also the way moves cost force has brought the s/o ctf community, a major part of the JK community to a point where we are disguisted with the game. Out of all the different kinds of games in JK2 i have played, s/o ctf is the gametype I have found to be the best IMO. The only ways people could kill flag carrier's has been removed. For the dark returners it was rage dfa mostly. For the light returners it was mostly pull throw and kicking down and killing (and for 1.02/1.03ers backslashing). However with the nerfing of dfa and the removal of kick, flag carriers have become nearly invincible, especially with a good guarder. Also, the JK2 full force duelers also are disappointed with the removal of grip kicking, and kicking in general. IMO this JA is made to be more like and rpg than an fps. Although the maps and moves are nice and all, they are not practical. A few of the ctf maps especially the new yavin one is much too big. Also, I keep hearing about how we should use the saber more. Well if you have a good flag carrer with the flag, not only do you have to worry about catching up to him, but it's nearly impossible to hit them once you do. The specials take much too long to do and only kill on a direct hit, which is nearly impossible. I have seen that lunge does good damage, which is a plus. However its still going to be really hard to kill any flag carriers will lunge and pull throw and maybe combos especially because lunge costs force now so it can only be used once or twice with speed on. Overall, I think this game was made for the no force dueler who wanted a true star wars feel. They got this, but it was at the cost of s/o ctf and ff duelers. In all honesty, I'm not going to play this game until I see a patch or an attempt by Raven/Lucasarts to fix and adapt the game to these players. Also, I think it is a bad idea to make the different gametypes have different damages. The JK community is split up enough as it is, this will separate them even more. I hope this game turns out as good as JK2, but I hope it is going to be supported as well and hopefully better than JK2, maybe with some manditory patches if possible, or even adding a CD key. Anyways I'm not going to ramble on anymore about more fixes, but if you go around reading some other posts around this forum you will get all the things that people want fixed.

[div3rse.draco]

C'jais
09-24-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
How's your personal shield going to stop an attack that's coming from inside it? The damage isn't from kinetic energy...it's from the weight of the impact.

Actually, the damage that kicks deliver on a person is very much kinetic energy. Any moving object colliding with another transfers kinetic energy.

And the attack isn't coming from inside it. The kicker is trying to penetrate the shield with a physical object (himself), which is precisely what the flak cannon, missile launcher, repeater and crossbow is trying to do, only at a much higher velocity. And as the shield can resist a rocket attack (with the explosion coming "from inside it"), it should be taken to count for kicks as well.

But why are we even discussing this - you can have your kick, as long as it doesn't give the 20 hp in damage. If Raven does implement the double-tap kick again (which I wouldn't count on), it is not going to be better than the saberstaff kick.

Blocking is still broken in JA.

Blocking isn't "broken". It's as flawed as in JO, but by no means "broken". That sort of accusation has as much weight behind it as saying the entire saber combat is "broken".

EDIT: good post draco.

traj
09-24-2003, 06:39 PM
Mods talking trash to LF forum members...wow

So, if we can use cvars to increase saber damage, why not cvars for kick?

If you're worried about fragmenting the community, that's exactly what different servers having different saber damage scales will do. Darth Schmoe will play on the servers with normal saber damage, and I won't play at all.

Why not include the server side option for kick? Darth Schmoe will play on the servers wihtout kick, and I will play on the servers with kick. Either way, we're never going to see each other because we like different things. This way, not only Darth Schmoe gets to play JA, I do too.

And that makes me happy.

div3rse.draco
09-24-2003, 06:41 PM
Thank you, just thought I should left everyone know how a lot of the JK community feels. Almost every player I know from JK2 has been disappointed in JA and I am myself. I just hope Raven listens to all the emails it has been getting and take it all into consideration.

FurionStormrage
09-24-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
Why would it? They had to remove it in the first place and that created an imbalance. They can just toss whatever it was they decided "balanced out" the loss of 33% of our arsenal.

Seems to me like it is VERY balanced if you get a tie at the end of the game...

Originally posted by Ardent

Hardly. If you're paying attention to something as petty as a kick (at worst a takedown if you have the first clue about defense...usually little more than a bruise otherwise) then you're leaving yourself open to an attack from your opponent's primary mode of offense: their weapon. If you and I were to use swords, you'd quickly find yourself sorely out-classed, I think. In order to compete in a freestyle tournament you need to be an acknowledged master of at least one form. As far as my kicking you...if you saw it coming, it wouldn't be coming (if you'll excuse the Tzuism). I'd be attacking where you weren't looking. As JO is now, there are plenty of ways to avoid a kick. Probably the best is to learn how to kick better than your opponent.

See, this is where you don't understand what you're talking about. A lightsabre is not a fencing rapier or a kendo stick. I don't bother playing with things that don't do damage. I'm talking about fighting with a single-edged or two-edged SWORD. You take a kick at me then your leg's coming off. No ifs, ands, or buts. When you are dealing with LETHAL force, you cannot afford to ignore any part of the opponent.

Originally posted by Ardent
Impact of mass against a body at rest, if you want to get into the nitty-gritty, is more than enough to cause damage most of the time. When you're talking about 50-100kg individuals, it's more than enough. A kinetic barrier which isn't at the layer of the skin (and it's obviously not...it's a spherical barrier surrounding the Jedi) can't protect someone against the impact of mass against their being. It can't even reduce the velocity noticeably at that point, as it's primary plane of deflection is outside of where most of the motion takes place. You really don't want to get into physics with me. ;)

Forgive me for not knowing you were into theoretical physics. :rolleyes: If you had actually made sense with what you said I wouldn't have mistaken my physics classes. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Ardent
Of course I want kicking back. It's integral to ff s/o ctf which is a significant share of the JO community (dare I say -- at least 33%). Which is a significant portion of sales LA/Raven was counting on.

It's integral to Jedi Knight 2 OUTCAST FF S/O CTF. Not Jedi Academy FF S/O CTF. New game; new tactics.

C'jais
09-24-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by traj
Mods talking trash to LF forum members...wow

I want a quote, now.

traj
09-24-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
I want a quote, now.

Prime
09-24-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by traj
So, if we can use cvars to increase saber damage, why not cvars for kick? The reason that was given in another thread by some competative S/O gamers (can't remember who) was that cvars were unaccaptable to alter gameplay because not everyone would use them.

Actually, if kicks do come back, I want for those servers with them enabled to at least be clearly marked, like how the sabers only and no force servers are. Some sort of icon...

C'jais
09-24-2003, 07:09 PM
Traj, I meant I wanted a quote that outlined where you think I was "trash talking" him.

traj
09-24-2003, 07:13 PM
Well, calling someone ridiculous, or a joke, and telling them to go play another game might not be trash talk. Just condescending ******* behavior.

My bad.

FurionStormrage
09-24-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by traj
Well, calling someone ridiculous, or a joke, and telling them to go play another game might not be trash talk. Just condescending ******* behavior.

My bad.

Why exactly is this condescending @$$hole behavior, traj? YOUR community is asking me to play a game I DIDN'T buy: one with kicks. Try at least to be consistent. :c3po:

C'jais
09-24-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by traj
Well, calling someone ridiculous, or a joke, and telling them to go play another game might not be trash talk. Just condescending ******* behavior.

I did not call him ridiculous, or a joke.

Please note that there's a difference between going for the man, and the argument.

Yes, I found some of his arguments to be less than stellar, but it doesn't mean I think the man is an idiot.

traj
09-24-2003, 07:28 PM
No, I'm not asking you to play a game with kicks. I'm asking RAVEN to give me the option to play with kicks. You can still play without them all you want.

Whoa, the profanity filter doesn't work on *******?

And to clarify. You never called anyone a joke or ridiculous, you called their statement or behavior a joke and ridiculous. To me that's the same thing though.

You did however tell them to go play another game. Not very nice.
Especially come from a mod in the forums where we are supposed to be able to talk about the game.

C'jais
09-24-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by traj
And to clarify. You never called anyone a joke or ridiculous, you called their statement or behavior a joke and ridiculous. To me that's the same thing though.

Except there's a very clear difference.

If you wanted to kill the president, I'd call that a very, very stupid thing to do, and you obviously have some sick views on human life. If this wasn't on a heavily modded message board, I'd probably call you an idiot as well. Let's call a spade a spade.

But this is getting way off the topic.

You did however tell them to go play another game. Not very nice.
Especially come from a mod in the forums where we are supposed to be able to talk about the game.

Yes, I did. I was repeating the same thing you've been telling other people all along - if you don't like kicks in JO, play another game. I don't find that insulting at all.

I'm not a mod here, I'm just your average user in this place.

And I'm not a very nice guy, really. Anything else you'd like to know?

traj
09-24-2003, 07:44 PM
First of all, I have NEVER told anyone to go play another game. I want EVERYBODY to be able to enjoy this game. That's the difference between you and I.

All I want is an option added so that you can play the way you like and I can play the way I like.

And it says moderator by your name, maybe you should change it. And if you're not a nice guy, then I don't think you have any business moderating these forums.

the weiner dog!
09-24-2003, 07:48 PM
Hi draco.

:)

Don’t argue traj, remember they banned media because he made a sarcastic comment in response to a condescending remark a mod made towards him.

But at the same time we have had AXVegeta (who I have personally reported a 1/2 dozen times) calling us "faggots" and telling us to "f-uck off" (those are his direct words, not mine) in every thread where we try to discuss something yet no one bans him.

:confused:

Don’t look for uniformity in the way rules are enforced here, you won't find it.

Anyways, traj is right (as is kurgan).

Cvars *can solve problems so why not give us one?

A cvar to:

-enable kicks
-take off the special 25 force use penalty
-remove the line of sight nerf to grip
-enable old style roll (unrestricted player movement)

This would make us all very happy and we would all go away and never ever bother any of you again.


Why is asking for this so wrong?

I can tell you why, a lot of you are (as traj eloquently put it) happy “as pigs in ****” that the game has been nerfed and slowed down to a simplistic pace and you no longer look as silly as you did in Jedi Outcast when you mash buttons and hop around like happy little Darth Mauls.

Put the complexity back in and remove all the nerfing and not only will you not look as cool, you will get beat all to hell like a lot of you did in Jedi Outcast.

Think I'm worng on that?

It was not *us bitching to take things like the spinning DFA and the back stab out of Jedi Outcast, it was most of *you guys who are being so vocal about "whining" now.

Most of you never really learned jack about full force saber only combat, you just hung out on ffa_bespin making human towers and /amsitting.

Of course if there is a movement to crank the game play back up to a hard core level that will require people to learn it if they want to succeed, those people are going to be very vocal about keeping it all nice and comfy in the land of the emote-ville.

:)

FurionStormrage
09-24-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I can tell you why, a lot of you are (as traj eloquently put it) happy “as pigs in ****” that the game has been nerfed and slowed down to a simplistic pace and you no longer look as silly as you did in Jedi Outcast when you mash buttons and hop around like happy little Darth Mauls.


Sorry, this game is not nerfed. This is a new game. THIS IS NOT JO! Now, if a patch comes out and the weapons are even less lethal than they are in the first iteration, I will agree with your assertion that the game is nerfed.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Put the complexity back in and remove all the nerfing and not only will you not look as cool, you will get beat all to hell like you did in Jedi Outcast when we came to public servers for “laming” sessions every now and then.


I think you have the wrong game. We're talking about JA, not JO. Do try to keep up.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!


Most of you never really learned jack about full force saber only combat, you just hung out on ffa_bespin making human towers and /amsitting.


How original. You can't rebut anything so you just use the great insult standby. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!


Of course if there is a movement to crank this games game play back up to a hard core level that will require people to learn it to succeed, you people are going to be very vocal about keeping it all nice and comfy in the land of the emote-ville.

:)

I am truly sorry. Crank up this game's play back to what? It's at the first iteration.

I do find a bit of irony in that changing one letter of your handle we get the whiner dog... :D

traj
09-24-2003, 08:00 PM
Good post weiner.

You're right about not arguing too.

I came here to try to find solutions to our FF/SO problems in JA, and couldn't stand how this place was more about winning arguments than solving problems.

More about finding any tiny thing that someone said in a post and posting a 12 paragraph bore-a-thon just to try to counter what was said. Guess I got caught up in it. Something about this place.

Anyways, the togglable cvar options are the way to go for a billion reasons already mentioned here. I won't bore you with more repetition.

/pukes

FurionStormrage
09-24-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by traj
Good post weiner.

You're right about not arguing too.

I came here to try to find solutions to our FF/SO problems in JA, and couldn't stand how this place was more about winning arguments than solving problems.

More about finding any tiny thing that someone said in a post and posting a 12 paragraph bore-a-thon just to try to counter what was said. Guess I got caught up in it. Something about this place.

Anyways, the togglable cvar options are the way to go for a billion reasons already mentioned here. I won't bore you with more repetition.

/pukes

If you were TRULY interested in getting Raven to see your POV, why are you not on their direct forum? I've been popping in over there a bit and I see that none of you have bothered to bring this up on THEIR OWN FORUM.

darth_michael
09-24-2003, 08:55 PM
Hahaha, let's not get all worked up here. But let me ask you something... did you take theoretical physics before taking ACTUAL physics? Because the stuff you write makes it sound like you read a book on the subject and declared yourself an expert. Do you have a degree in physics? Didn't think so.

The thing about "theoretical physics" is that in order to be taken seriously (note that whether or not it is taken seriously has nothing to do with whether or not it genuinely refers to any actual reality) it has to connect to accepted physical theory in some measurable way. Otherwise it falls in to another category entirely: idle speculation.

Not that there's anything wrong with that! It's just that you can't go around deducing physical laws based on entirely hypothetical or assumed principles. Yes, ha ha, all of science is like this (and frankly, this is why I don't have much faith in science as an absolute description of reality), but the so-called scientific method is based on more than just picking ideas out of the air and running with them. Or relying on some "realities" and ignoring others. Case in point: (paraphrased) "The shield can't be solid because if it were, the user would be crushed by the force of it. Therefore it must be a shell." What kind of deduction is this? First off, please describe the nature of this force FIELD, such that it "crushes" things inside it. Right now you're sitting in the middle of a big magnetic field, yet you are not crushed. Second, assuming you can explain this, how can you discount one possibility on the grounds of scientific implausability, yet ignore the scientific implausability of generating a field in the shape of a spherical shell with a device that presumably fits in the pocket of Joe Jedi walking down the streets of Courescant?

Same goes for your explanation as to why this shield will block a blaster shot but not a kick, because of some kinetic energy cutoff. "Quite simple," yes. But why should we accept this explanation over any other? Given the situation, is there any physical reality that suggests this should be the case, or are we just talking about Ardent's Theory of Kinetic Barriers? I vote for the second one. We might as well be talking about a doody on a string.

And finally, we come to this statement: "You're close, but you fail to understand that in order to function effectively as either a container or a decontainer, it would have to force its field of effect to be a plane, admittedly a spherical plane, but a plane nonetheless." Well, I have to disagree. Let's take a trip in to "actual" physics world, where we have a nice little decontainer I like to call the Pauli Exclusion Principle. Does it have anything to do with spherical planes? Let's take a step back... does the reason your hand doesn't pass through your keyboard when you type have anything to do with spherical planes? No. I'm afraid that if we're operating on the assumption that physical law as we know it is real, then it has to do with volumous (ie. "solid", ie. "not shell-like") fields.

Oh well! I guess we could just ignore hundreds of years of scientific study and invent our own tHeOrEtIcAl model that, while having nothing to do with reality, explains our kinetic deflector! And maybe we could convince the world that we're right, by force of will alone!

And on that note, I can't believe I'm having this discussion on a Jedi Knight message board... it's been real!

the weiner dog!
09-24-2003, 09:34 PM
Jedi Academy is based on the same exact code Jedi Outcast was.

All the saber swings are the same.

All the guns are the same.

All the force powers are the same.


They added two new stances with a few swings but neither new stance has as many swings and combos as the old single stance that was directly ported over from Jedi Outcast.


They added one new gun.


They added no new force powers.

They put in some wall grab moves.


Take your head out of your rectal cavity and wake up, this is 85% Jedi Outcast.

Same code.
Same moves.
Same guns.
Same sabers.
Same powers.
Same physics.

New maps.
New models.
A few minor additions to the weapon/saber parts.
A few very badly chosen nerfs.



Are you people really this clueless?

It is a "new game" in name only you mindless sheep, the engine, game play dynamics and game play content are IDENTICAL to Jedi Outcast.

And why is that?

Because this entire build was nothing more than taking the Jedi Outcast build and changing a few things and adding a few things.

They did not build and entire new game from scratch people, they took Jedi Outcast and altered it.

duh, hello.

Nothing changed other than some really bad placed nerfs that are messing up game play balance for a lot of people.

Ardent
09-24-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by darth_michael
Hahaha, let's not get all worked up here. But let me ask you something... did you take theoretical physics before taking ACTUAL physics? Because the stuff you write makes it sound like you read a book on the subject and declared yourself an expert. Do you have a degree in physics? Didn't think so.

As I've mentioned, I'm not here to get worked up. It's my job to rile everyone else up. ;) I'm actually studying for a degree in physics, but that's beside my point.

The thing about "theoretical physics" is that in order to be taken seriously (note that whether or not it is taken seriously has nothing to do with whether or not it genuinely refers to any actual reality) it has to connect to accepted physical theory in some measurable way. Otherwise it falls in to another category entirely: idle speculation.

Does it? Glancing over some of the work in the science journals lately, I'm not so certain. You just have to present some evidence of it working. I mean, that's how we got physics in the first place. Considering we're talking about something taking place in a fictional environ, that's not really a plausible solution here. So we're relegated to idle speculation.

ot that there's anything wrong with that! It's just that you can't go around deducing physical laws based on entirely hypothetical or assumed principles.

Just because I wasn't born two thousand years ago I can't have a theory? Good grief.

Yes, ha ha, all of science is like this (and frankly, this is why I don't have much faith in science as an absolute description of reality), but the so-called scientific method is based on more than just picking ideas out of the air and running with them.

Well...not so much. Maybe at a professional level, but at an educational level, it rarely has beginnings higher than those humble "random ideas." Not surprisingly, most breakthroughs lately seem to be the result of students in a college research environment. Shave with a triple-blade razor? Invented by some kid who can't collect a dime on it because it was his project for a class at WPI. WPI, on the other hand, is raking money in hand-over-fist.

Or relying on some "realities" and ignoring others.

Well, that may have been an oversight because I don't really care what the majority of people, who aren't well-versed enough to know the difference, think.

Case in point: (paraphrased) "The shield can't be solid because if it were, the user would be crushed by the force of it. Therefore it must be a shell." What kind of deduction is this?

A fairly logical one. If the kinetic barrier is exerting pressure in order to deflect something (which, oddly enough, is a logical conclusion) then it has to exert the pressure on itself as well.

First off, please describe the nature of this force FIELD, such that it "crushes" things inside it. Right now you're sitting in the middle of a big magnetic field, yet you are not crushed.

Until you start to exert enough pressure against those fields that they start pushing back...

Second, assuming you can explain this, how can you discount one possibility on the grounds of scientific implausability, yet ignore the scientific implausability of generating a field in the shape of a spherical shell with a device that presumably fits in the pocket of Joe Jedi walking down the streets of Courescant?

Because it's my theory and my prerogative to do so? Mostly because none of this would be provable even if it was true, but I can work with physics however I like. I can even use it to explain a lightsaber if I want to, but that doesn't mean I can prove it's true...unless you have a functional lightsaber you don't mind sharing.

Same goes for your explanation as to why this shield will block a blaster shot but not a kick, because of some kinetic energy cutoff. "Quite simple," yes. But why should we accept this explanation over any other?

Because right now you're reading my theory. When reading someone else's you can accept their particular explanation over mine.

Given the situation, is there any physical reality that suggests this should be the case, or are we just talking about Ardent's Theory of Kinetic Barriers? I vote for the second one. We might as well be talking about a doody on a string.

Fair enough. As I've mentioned, you can't prove something until you make it work. As the only place this device functions is in a work of fiction, I can't prove it.

And finally, we come to this statement: "You're close, but you fail to understand that in order to function effectively as either a container or a decontainer, it would have to force its field of effect to be a plane, admittedly a spherical plane, but a plane nonetheless." Well, I have to disagree. Let's take a trip in to "actual" physics world, where we have a nice little decontainer I like to call the Pauli Exclusion Principle. Does it have anything to do with spherical planes? Let's take a step back... does the reason your hand doesn't pass through your keyboard when you type have anything to do with spherical planes? No. I'm afraid that if we're operating on the assumption that physical law as we know it is real, then it has to do with volumous (ie. "solid", ie. "not shell-like") fields.

On the other hand, we don't know that the Pauli Exclusion Principle, since you brought it up, is the full truth of the matter. It's been proven, yes, based on the circumstances in which the theory was presented. Present the theory in other circumstances, however, and it may just fail...or it may prove static. You can't tell until it happens. For the longest time the physical theory behind lightsabers had been considered bogus, but modern scientific theory seems to be leaning the other way now. We're just starting to learn about that sort of thing, though.

Oh well! I guess we could just ignore hundreds of years of scientific study and invent our own tHeOrEtIcAl model that, while having nothing to do with reality, explains our kinetic deflector! And maybe we could convince the world that we're right, by force of will alone!

Why not? Newton did it.

And on that note, I can't believe I'm having this discussion on a Jedi Knight message board... it's been real!

Well, you an J-lo have something in common then.

Pyro
09-24-2003, 09:45 PM
stfu nerds

boinga1
09-24-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Jedi Academy is based on the same exact code Jedi Outcast was.

All the saber swings are the same.

All the guns are the same.

All the force powers are the same.


They added two new stances with a few swings but neither new stance has as many swings and combos as the old single stance that was directly ported over from Jedi Outcast.


They added one new gun.


They added no new force powers.

They put in some wall grab moves.


Take your head out of your rectal cavity and wake up, this is 85% Jedi Outcast.

Same code.
Same moves.
Same guns.
Same sabers.
Same powers.
Same physics.

New maps.
New models.
A few minor additions to the weapon/saber parts.
A few very badly chosen nerfs.



Are you people really this clueless?

It is a "new game" in name only you mindless sheep, the engine, game play dynamics and game play content are IDENTICAL to Jedi Outcast.

And why is that?

Because this entire build was nothing more than taking the Jedi Outcast build and changing a few things and adding a few things.

They did not build and entire new game from scratch people, they took Jedi Outcast and altered it.

duh, hello.

Nothing changed other than some really bad placed nerfs that are messing up game play balance for a lot of people.

I am sorry. Perhaps you are not aware that most sequels are based off the same engine as their predeccessors. Perhaps you do not know that Jedi Academy changes at least as much from JO as the sequels to most FPS games do. I mean...what...in a normal FPS game, you'll add weapons, missions, maps, models....isn't that basically what JA adds?

FurionStormrage
09-24-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Jedi Academy is based on the same exact code Jedi Outcast was.


No it isn't. You think just because it looks the same that it's the same code. Once again, please print out your hex dump for both of them and prove your statement. Oh, wait! You can't.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
All the saber swings are the same.

Actually, they're not. Since you choose to perpetuate this falsehood it makes me doubt the veracity of your other posts.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
All the guns are the same.

Actually, they're not. Since you choose to perpetuate this falsehood it makes me doubt the veracity of your other posts.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
All the force powers are the same.

Actually, they're not. Since you choose to perpetuate this falsehood it makes me doubt the veracity of your other posts.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

They added two new stances with a few swings but neither new stance has as many swings and combos as the old single stance that was directly ported over from Jedi Outcast.

Which is completely contradictory to your whole post. First off, saying that the swings are the same and then saying that they are ported over from the other game is, well, I don't have a word to describe how stupid this is. "Porting" requires that this be a different game. But you assert they are the same. Make up your mind and then come back and post. Or not.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
They added one new gun.

Oh, so now they're NOT the same. Once again, make up your mind.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
They added no new force powers.

No new force powers, but the act differently.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
They put in some wall grab moves.

Which are not in JO. Thank you once again for proving my point.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Take your head out of your rectal cavity and wake up, this is 85% Jedi Outcast.

I suggest to you to do so.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Same code.
Same moves.
Same guns.
Same sabers.
Same powers.
Same physics.


Incorrect on all counts. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

New maps.
New models.
A few minor additions to the weapon/saber parts.
A few very badly chosen nerfs.


All of which prove that it's a different game...

And no nerfs. A new game. Nothing to nerf.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Are you people really this clueless?


Hmmm. Look in the mirror and ask again.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
It is a "new game" in name only you mindless sheep, the engine, game play dynamics and game play content are IDENTICAL to Jedi Outcast.

Then why did you buy it you clueless moron? So you could prove to everyone how stupid you are?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
And why is that?

Because this entire build was nothing more than taking the Jedi Outcast build and changing a few things and adding a few things.

They did not build and entire new game from scratch people, they took Jedi Outcast and altered it.


Same publisher, same developer. What legal requirement is there for them to make a completely different game?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

duh, hello.


Shoulda thought of that before you blew 50 USD, huh?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Nothing changed other than some really bad placed nerfs that are messing up game play balance for a lot of people.

So return it and stop whining pathetically. :rolleyes:

the weiner dog!
09-24-2003, 10:09 PM
-Explain to me the differences between all the guns (other than the conc) between Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.


-Explain to me the differences between the single saber stance and it's three styles (fast/medium/heavy) in Jedi Outcast and Academy.


-Explain to me the differences between the Force Powers in Outcast and Academy.


I can give you a few (all nerfs as I mentioned above).

Rage+ speed bonus gone (nerf).

Grip line of sight restriction (nerf).

Basic specials have a 25 force penalty (nerf).

Sniper gun has a delay penalty after zoom (nerf).



Ok guy, tell me the difference between the rocket launcher in JK2 and JA?

Drain in JK2 and JA?

Speed in Jk2 and JA?

Protect?

Seeing?

Storm trooper gun?

Team heal?

Absorb?

Lightning?


Heavy swing combos any different?

Fast style swings any different?

Medium style combos any different?


I'm serious guy, tell me the difference.

Tell me the just how each and every gun is now different.

Tell me just how each and every power is now different.

Tell me how each and every single stance swing is now different.

You can't can you?

Nope.

the weiner dog!
09-24-2003, 10:15 PM
So do me and the rest of these people a favor, actually consider this an open statement to all of you:

You don't play these game types, you have no clue about the finer details and points of game play mechanics were are discussing so simply read and if you do reply, post something relevant to the discussion that is backed up by fact not your ignorant personal opinions.

And if you take offense at being called ignorant, you should.

When a person says "I know nothing about this game type because I do not play it" but then proceeds to lecture the people who do play it about the mechanics of it, that is pure ignorance.

g//plaZma
09-24-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by boinga1
I am sorry. Perhaps you are not aware that most sequels are based off the same engine as their predeccessors. Perhaps you do not know that Jedi Academy changes at least as much from JO as the sequels to most FPS games do. I mean...what...in a normal FPS game, you'll add weapons, missions, maps, models....isn't that basically what JA adds?

Exactly. You just proved his point.

He's not saying he's unhappy with how similar JA and JO are with eachother. He's just saying that the game isn't much different from JO and trying to disprove the people who are saying "well this is JA, not JO. Adapt. Blah blah blah." The gameplay is essentially the same as JO with a few "nerfs."

If someone responds to this, please use something besides "this is a totally different game" because I'm aware that they are two different games. That's why they are sold on the shelves with different titles.

Rumor
09-24-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Seems to me like it is VERY balanced if you get a tie at the end of the game...


balance does not mean that gameplay heavily favors one side of the spectrum.

balance is where someone has about a 50/50 chance of living/dying in said situations.

in JA it is more along the lines of 99/1 (1 being where he goes afk and gets taken down by a kata)

that is not ballance.

if it WAS balanced you would have a chance of killing someone who knows what they are doing as FC. in this version you DO NOT.

boinga1
09-24-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
He's just saying that the game isn't much different from JO and trying to disprove the people who are saying "well this is JA, not JO. Adapt. Blah blah blah." The gameplay is essentially the same as JO with a few "nerfs."

I am one of those people, as far as adapting goes.

Look...don't view it as a nerfed game. Try to look at it as a new game, as if the game now is your basline for comparison, rather than using JO 1.04 as your baseline. You can certainly say, "Ja feels nerfed compared to JO" but don't just say "JA is nerfed."

Again...patience. I cannot stress this enough. Stop screaming and TRY to formulate new startegies. Heck, try a new game mode if you think s/o ctf is THAT bad in JA. Maybe you'll like Siege, or Duel, or whatever.

(Serious question here) By the way, nowhere in all this has saber throw come up. Wy is it that you can't throw your saber at an fc? Too little Force Power? (Serious question here)

Side
09-24-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by boinga1

(Serious question here) By the way, nowhere in all this has saber throw come up. Wy is it that you can't throw your saber at an fc? Too little Force Power? (Serious question here)

Well any good cappers will have an guarder with em enegizing-healing em so 20-40 dmg wont help much + returner(people that throw their saber to the fc) are limited with force and even if u came up with the idea to energizing returner to enable em plenty of pull-throw u still gotta deal with the fc Healin and the fc wont just run away hes gonna turn 180 degre and push the crowd chasin him while hes bunny hopping

g//plaZma
09-24-2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by boinga1
Again...patience. I cannot stress this enough. Stop screaming and TRY to formulate new startegies. Heck, try a new game mode if you think s/o ctf is THAT bad in JA. Maybe you'll like Siege, or Duel, or whatever.

I've been primarily playing siege and full weapons CTF. I have to say these are awsome gametypes but I really don't want to see the competitive ff/so CTF fall apart and die. I will probably never even play ff/so CTF competitively even if Raven patches it up.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
-Explain to me the differences between all the guns (other than the conc) between Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.


Simple search: damage is less or more per gun. I am not going to repeat what someone else has observed...

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

-Explain to me the differences between the single saber stance and it's three styles (fast/medium/heavy) in Jedi Outcast and Academy.


Hit boxes are smaller or larger. Blocking is different. etc.


Originally posted by the weiner dog!

-Explain to me the differences between the Force Powers in Outcast and Academy.


Different damages/benefits. You even said it yourself. Why are you asking me?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I can give you a few (all nerfs as I mentioned above).

Rage+ speed bonus gone (nerf).

Grip line of sight restriction (nerf).

Basic specials have a 25 force penalty (nerf).


New game. Not nerfs. Nerf implies there was something TO nerf.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Sniper gun has a delay penalty after zoom (nerf).


Disproven by Kurgen and others. Again, please try to keep up.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!


Blah, blah, blah



More of the same. "These are not the excuses you are looking for. Move along!"

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I'm serious guy, tell me the difference.


Unmitigated balderdash. I can't believe you are even a competitive player with the amount of whining drivel that's spewing forth from your account. A competitor is someone who COMPETES. You BEAT THE ODDS. Don't bitch at them. :rolleyes:

Oh, here's a nice quote FROM YOU in another thread:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
-The good:

Single player story.

Multi player maps

Multi player gun games (ctf/ffa)

New player models

Very low learning curve in multi player saber games (button mashing looks really cool this time around)


The bad:

All multi player full force saber only game types (ffa/duel/ctf/pd/teamffa) are totally unbalanced. You can heal/team heal at almost 3 times the rate you can cause damage, thus making virtually every game a stalemate.

A lot of nerfing, much more than Jedi Outcast had.

even basic special moves require force now, grip is useless, no kicking other than the ineffective saber stance kicks, slower physics like the nerfed rolling, much lower damage sabers than 1.04 Jedi Outcast had (when in saber only game types), need I continue or did you get the point yet?



Why should I tell you what's different when you've already enumerated them in another thread? :quesbrn:

[div3rse.jello]
09-25-2003, 12:58 AM
we have a new Al

fantastic

heh i could probably say you dont know what you're arguing for anymore

just analyzing posts..dude quit that **** :rolleyes:

are

OMG TWO VOWELS IN A WORD.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]

OMG TWO VOWELS IN A WORD.

4r3

Happy now? :D

Spider AL
09-25-2003, 01:16 AM
w3rd. Do stop flaming everyone just because you don't agree with them and/or cannot argue with them rationally Jello.

Guardian Omega
09-25-2003, 01:27 AM
Er, Furion, most of that can be modded usually, notably the weapon damage part.........

But I'm going to sit back and watch the flames! Although I don't believe Raven tested the game well enough (which is why I like open MP tests), I'll see the rest of this topic.......

*adds wood*

MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Ardent
09-25-2003, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Side
Well any good cappers will have an guarder with em enegizing-healing em so 20-40 dmg wont help much + returner(people that throw their saber to the fc) are limited with force and even if u came up with the idea to energizing returner to enable em plenty of pull-throw u still gotta deal with the fc Healin and the fc wont just run away hes gonna turn 180 degre and push the crowd chasin him while hes bunny hopping

I'll translate Side's Frenglish. Most competitive level players work together cohesively to make an FC a harder target. A truly successful FC/defender pair will be able to keep the FC uninjured for the duration of his hold.

Most returners, even (perhaps even especially) at a competitive level, are playing a game of run and hit. With a target that's actively evading you, you have to be thinking one step ahead or employing an ability that works at range (grip, saber throw, lightning...) Pull-throw is one of the most common and trusted techniques used by returners (although IMHO not one of the better ones) but because it can't do a significant amount of damage quickly, it has to be employed with precision.

Experienced returner teams work together to split the FC and his defender(s). One person, usually the person best at kicking or red dfa leading, takes off after the FC while the other returner(s) keep the defender(s) distracted...or at least keep depleting their Force so they can't assist that way.

One of the best ways to break this sort of tactic up in JO was kicking. Kicking was almost never the primary mode of offense. It was a tool used to allow people, particularly returners, to make the kill. Defensively, it was employed to spectacular effect defending the flag. Without it, a defender is relegated to slashing about randomly and hoping the enemy capper is dumb enough to jump in.

I was playing a little FF CTF (not S/O since I can't find a server yet) today. Aside from a few hiccups with my level knowledge not being what it should, I don't think I was ever returned on. I could take their flag for a cruise around the level and not lose much more than 20 health at a round. Considering I can just heal myself or grab a medpac, that's garbage.

Returning was a lot harder. I basically had to get lucky. I either had to push them off a ledge or nail them, mostly by accident, with a few attacks in a row (I didn't use guns except to rocket-hop or the like). That's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

If this is a game of skill (which it is, theoretically), luck should not be my primary mode of success. Even if I consider myself a lucky individual. My primary mode of success should be skill. SKILL. There's no skill in returning in JA CTF. It's "better lucky than good" in attitude and effect. Which is silly. Why even create a new game if you're just going to dumb down the existing gameplay? Why not just release a beta build of JO and call it a job well done?

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Simple search: damage is less or more per gun. I am not going to repeat what someone else has observed...

translation: I can't think of anything so I'm going to play it off by being evasive.



Hit boxes are smaller or larger. Blocking is different. etc.

wrong again. Ask any NF duelist, the same block/parry system, the same swings, all the same, every bit of it. Try again little buckaroo. Telling me that ghoul2 is now on by default does not make those swings any different.



Different damages/benefits. You even said it yourself. Why are you asking me?

translation: I'm avoiding the direct challenge for me to specifically note the differences between all these things in case no one has noticed. Either that or I’m a total noob who did not even really know how they worked in the last game to comment



New game. Not nerfs. Nerf implies there was something TO nerf.

take the same exact move, weaken it. That is by definition a nerf. Grip is 100% the exact same move it was in JK2. No different in any way shape or form. Put a line of sight restriction on it, the move is still identical other than the nerf.



Disproven by Kurgen and others. Again, please try to keep up.

proved by the best gunners, (and multiple ones at that) in this game and it's predecessor from the twl leagues, you try to keep up. You have a lot more to learn about this stuff than I do.



More of the same. "These are not the excuses you are looking for. Move along!"

again he avoids a direct challenge to point out how the many guns, powers and swings are any different by just rambling but never stating a single point that will validate his argument.



Unmitigated balderdash. I can't believe you are even a competitive player with the amount of whining drivel that's spewing forth from your account. A competitor is someone who COMPETES. You BEAT THE ODDS. Don't bitch at them. :rolleyes:

Undefeated in ladder/league play in Jedi Outcast.
Actually, not only undefeated, I’ve never had a single opponent score over 4 kills in a 10 round match in official tournament play on me.
I have played and beaten every single American and European Full Force duelist that was ever considered to be “the best” in Jedi Outcast. (break_dF still kicked my ass more than I did his though /cry)

Now considering that you still think this is a new game and every thing is totally different, it would be safe to say I know nothing about this game right?

Let’s do a match, me and you.

Since it’s only been out a week you and I must be of equal skill level right?

I mean there is no way I could transfer my experience from Jedi Outcast into this game right?

I mean as you claim, all the powers, and saber mechanics are totally different now right?

Serious guy, me, you 1v1.

Want to make an ass out of yourself and give me a chance to post my first humiliation demo of Jedi Academy on these forums (something I did quite often in Outcast when people ran off at the mouth)?

heh, what did Artifex call it back in 1.02?

"My bitch of the week screenshots" or something like that when noobs would smack talk him?

:p

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
translation: I can't think of anything so I'm going to play it off by being evasive.

Really tiring to hear you talk to yourself. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
wrong again. Ask any NF duelist, the same block/parry system, the same swings, all the same, every bit of it. Try again little buckaroo. Telling me that ghoul2 is now on by default does not make those swings any different.

Happens to be contrary to what everyone EXCEPT YOU says on this forum. Try again.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
translation: I'm avoiding the direct challenge for me to specifically note the differences between all these things in case no one has noticed. Either that or I’m a total noob who did not even really know how they worked in the last game to comment

What challenge? There's no opponent TO challenge in this debate -- I can't even call it a debate because I am not even trying to (you could say that I am master debating with both hands tied behind my back).

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
take the same exact move, weaken it. That is by definition a nerf. Grip is 100% the exact same move it was in JK2. No different in any way shape or form. Put a line of sight restriction on it, the move is now identical other than the nerf.

Sorry, different game. What's nerfed again? I am wondering which JA version you have? The illegal warez?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
proved by the best gunners, (and multiple ones at that) in this game and it's predecessor from the twl leagues, you try to keep up. You have a lot more to learn about this stuff than I do.

Sure, my perusal through the Quake source code wouldn't tell me anything about how the game works. :rolleyes: "You, my friend, still have much to learn."

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
again he avoids a direct challenge to point out how the many guns, powers and swings are any different by just rambling but never stating a single point that will validate his argument.


Considering that you yourself are disproving your own remarks every time you use your account, why should I apply any effort in a debate?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Undefeated in ladder/league play in Jedi Outcast.
Actually, not only undefeated, I’ve never had a single opponent score over 4 kills in a 10 round match in official tournament play on me.
I have played and beaten every single American and European Full Force duelist that was ever considered to be “the best” in Jedi Outcast.

Oh, wow! You can play the game! Still doesn't change the fact that you cannot form a logical argument to save your hide. Here's a hint for you: Your sabre skills are better than your rapier wit. Translation: become a better debater before applying fingers to keyboard.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Now considering that you still think this is a new game and every thing is totally different, it would be safe to say I know nothing about this game right?

Setting up a rhetorical question to make yourself look like a newb.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Let’s do a match, me and you.

Since it’s only been out a week you and I must be of equal skill level right?

I mean there is no way I could transfer my experience from Jedi Outcast into this game right?

I mean as you claim, all the powers, and saber mechanics are totally different now right?

Serious guy, me, you 1v1.

Translation: the whiner dog just got skewled in a debate and feels the only way to win is by playing a SABRE game. I am not interested in winning a sabre battle with you. I am interested in leaving the source code of this game unchanged due to you not understanding the dynamics of the CODE.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Want to make an ass out of yourself and give me a chance to post my first humiliation demo of Jedi Academy on these forums (something I did quite often in Outcast when people ran off at the mouth)?

I make an ass out of myself in the game all the time due to not being as 133+ of a player as some people. My skills on the floor, or lack thereof, mean NOTHING to the outcome of this debate (if it can be called that).

dyehead
09-25-2003, 02:55 AM
I'm sorry Furion, but grip has been nerfed

You used to be able to grab someone behind a corner and hold them so they couldn't get out of it (without absorb) Now, anyone, skilled or not can easily pull or push you when you grip, because as soon as you put someone behind a corner, pillar, wall, you name it, the grip is broken.

The only difference between level 2 and 3 grip, is you can move (albeit slowly).

The only thing changed in grip was to make it less useful, hence being called a nerf.

DFA was made less useful from 1.02 - 3, so that's called being nerfed.

Not trying to insult you, but maybe we have a different idea of what the word nerfed means.

Ardent
09-25-2003, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
Not trying to insult you, but maybe we have a different idea of what the word nerfed means.

He's still of the opinion you're talking out of your anus about JA being built on the same basic code JO is, unnamed.

I don't think his definition of nerfed is even in account here, but his opinion of reality probably is.

Let's work on the facts here: JO and JA are both built on the Q3ARaven engine. So they have at least that in common. But that's not the only place we see that they have things in common. They share the same foundations of the saber code. They share the same foundations of the Force code.

Obviously there has been work done to make improvements, but by the same token, there's been a lot of nerfing done.

We're not asking for something we couldn't do ourselves, which would put you guys in essentially the same position you're trying to avoid now: your list of "acceptable" servers would diminish. Lemme be blunt: that's going to happen no matter what. As the casual gamers become disenfranchised of the game (when HL2 is released or when Doom 3 is released or when Kerpoppi the video game is released or whatever) and leave, they take their servers with them more often than not. The servers that stick around tend to belong to the clans that have a vested stake in the game; consistantly competitive clans who are active on the ladders, i.e. us. In order to play with other people, rather than bots, you'd have to download our mod and then abide by all the other additions our mod makes.

We're just asking Raven to add the cvar so we don't HAVE to go make a mod. We probably will anyway (I'm certain Hex will at least...the original xmod did a lot more than let us turn off stuff we didn't like and turn on things we liked), but you shouldn't have to download an independently-produced mod for a game to be enjoyable for everyone. In a good game, any given person should be able to find and have access to something they like. We know the old kick code is still there and we like it and we just want access to it. Understand?

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by dyehead
I'm sorry Furion, but grip has been nerfed

You used to be able to grab someone behind a corner and hold them so they couldn't get out of it (without absorb) Now, anyone, skilled or not can easily pull or push you when you grip, because as soon as you put someone behind a corner, pillar, wall, you name it, the grip is broken.

The only difference between level 2 and 3 grip, is you can move (albeit slowly).

The only thing changed in grip was to make it less useful, hence being called a nerf.

DFA was made less useful from 1.02 - 3, so that's called being nerfed.


I agree that JO 1.02 -> JO 1.03 = nerf
I agree that JO 1.03 -> JO 1.04 = better
I agree that JO 1.02 -> JO 1.04 = nerf

I do not agree that JO 1.04 -> JA 1.0.x = nerf

In this equation, you are assuming that, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the changes from one GAME to another equals nerf. But, NOT ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL. JA is a new game. You and others may not like the changes, but there's no real point in comparison.

Just for the sake of argument, would you call Boxing a nerf of Kick Boxing because you cannot kick in regular boxing? No! That's because if you want to kick whilst boxing, you do Kick Boxing. You DON'T go running to the officials and say "It's unfair that you don't let me kick! It's the only way I know to stun my opponent!" I doubt you'd like the response you would get from that official. Somewhat similar to the response you are getting here...

Originally posted by dyehead

Not trying to insult you, but maybe we have a different idea of what the word nerfed means.

Yes, it would appear we do. :D

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 03:22 AM
Look guy I made an open challenge and this time I will make it even more specific so there is no way you can avoid answering my questions.

Tell me what is different from Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy in regards to these powers (in multi player):


And when I say different I mean in terms of mechanics, not aesthetics. I really don't care if lightning is a pastel blue now as opposed to an indigo purple (etc.)



Lightning
Drain
Force Jump (other than the *nerf removal of double tap kicks)
Force pull (other than the *visual effect of the bubble)
Force push (see above)
Grip (other than the *nerf line of sight penalty)
Rage (other than the *nerf no speed+rage bonus)
Team Energize
Team Heal
Protect
Absorb
Saber throw
Saber attack
Saber defense
Mind trick
Seeing


Please take your time and comment on each individual power.



Now sabers:

Light stance (single saber)

Other than the roll+stab what swings and combos have changed?


Medium

(Same)

Other than the roll+stab what swings and combos have changed?

Oh yeah, the yellow dfa has a spin restriction on it now *nerf



Heavy

(Same)

Other than the roll+stab what swings and combos have changed?

Granted the dfa has a different button press method now but it is unchanged from Outcast.



I mean when I do a red triple swing in Outcast, it looks exactly like the red triple I do in Academy.

Why is that?

My yellow/blue "fan" combos take the same key presses in both and, I'll be dammed, have the same animation and results in both.




Again, tell me which swings have changed, which combos?

Take your time and dissect each stance for the single saber please.






Guns:

Chewbacca gun
ST rifle
Repeater
Golan
Rocket launcher
Demp
Det packs
Sniper (other than the zoom delay penalty *nerf)
Mines
(I forget the others)

I mean, when I press the chewy gun I get the same fire, rate and effect as I did in Outcast?

What gives?

All the other guns have the same primary and alt fire effects as they did before; they function with the same level of accuracy and rate of fire as before..

Why is this?



Again, list the specific details as to why you claim they are different.

I’m not talking about ghoul2 collision either, I want to know how the *guns are different.
Does the alt fire on the rocket launcher shoot out penguins now?

What does it do, tell me please.






You can't, if you could have you would have.

You "schooled" no one noob, you simply avoided the challenge I presented to you and thought you could avoid having to validate your argument by turning this into a “pissing match” (argument for those of you who did not get that one).


And that challenge was (and still is) to prove your point that I was incorrect saying it’s the same content with new aesthetics.

Take those things I laid out above and tell me what is different.

I can easily validate my point because if you own this game you can go use each swing, power and gun and when the corresponding key is pressed, you get the same result you did in Outcast.

Now please show my how I am wrong in saying when I turn on <power> fire <gun> swing <single saber stance> I get any different result than I did in Outcast.


/waits….


I mean really guy, even the people who are giving us hell about putting kicks in at least acknowledge that this "new game" was built off the corpse of Jedi Outcast and it's overwhelming content remains identical.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!


I mean really guy, even the people who are giving us hell about putting kicks in at least acknowledge that this "new game" was built off the corpse of Jedi Outcast and it's overwhelming content remains identical.

If it's a corpse, why do you want to play it in JA? :rolleyes:

And, yes, you completely lost the argument. In at least HALF the instances where you were asking me to show how they were different, you were qualifying your statement! Geez. How stupid do you have to be to acknowledge how weak your argument is whilst making it?

You STILL have as yet to present to me your hex listing of both EXEs of the game to PROVE that JO = 85% of the code of JA... Come on! This is at least PROVABLE beyond the shadow of a doubt! And you still won't take me on...

Rumor
09-25-2003, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
If it's a corpse, why do you want to play it in JA? :rolleyes:

And, yes, you completely lost the argument. In at least HALF the instances where you were asking me to show how they were different, you were qualifying your statement! Geez. How stupid do you have to be to acknowledge how weak your argument is whilst making it?

You STILL have as yet to present to me your hex listing of both EXEs of the game to PROVE that JO = 85% of the code of JA... Come on! This is at least PROVABLE beyond the shadow of a doubt! And you still won't take me on...

a challenge to a 1v1 is a tool to show you first hand what he means. words cannot convey what actually goes on ingame as much as actually SEEING what goes on.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
a challenge to a 1v1 is a tool to show you first hand what he means. words cannot convey what actually goes on ingame as much as actually SEEING what goes on.

All a 1vs1 battle means is pitting one's skill against another. I freely admit that my skill level is in all likelihood subpar to his on a gameplay level. Him stomping on my ass is not going to PROVE that JO = 85% JA code. It is not going to PROVE that all moves are IDENTICAL.

The only way to PROVE that the code is identical is a hex listing. Somehow, I don't think any one of you is going to accept this challenge...

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 03:41 AM
Again, I asked you to list the difference in those guns, powers and swings.

That content alone makes up a huge portion of multiplayer content (all the guns except for one, all the force powers and all the swings other than the two new stances more than qualifies as a significant portion would you not agree?).

Prove me wrong; don’t try to derail this like you just did.


You can’t and now you’re reaching for anything you think will derail attention off you having to validate your bogus claim.

Please do not pull a “Spider Al” (argue just for the sake of arguing).


You claim this is a debate, I laid out a challenge, take those individual points (powers, guns and swigs) and dissect each and validate your stance.

To prove me wrong you need to do so, I proved they are identical (as can any other person with both games) by simply pressing the corresponding keys and getting the same results in both games.

That is how a debate works, I present a point, validate it, you disagree and invalidate it.

It is now your turn to prove to me and the world how when I press both the primary fire and alt fire with those guns, something different happens in Outcast than in Academy.


It is now your turn to prove that when I activate said powers, I get a different result in Outcast than in Academy.

It is now your turn to prove that when you press the same combination of keys in single stance you get different results in Outcast than in Academy.
(I gave you the DFA; now go find me differences for all of the dozens and dozens of swing and combos).

/waits…

And to clarify my comment about it being the same code, is every string of code identical?

Of course not, but it was built off the last game and is not an entirely new build and when I refer to it being "85% the same" I am referring to content and mechanics, not every miniscule line of code in the build.

You could totally change the code in the build but if the content and mechanics remain the same, the overwhelming majority of people are rational enough to grasp it's the same thing.

I could de decompile, alter a few lines of code and recompile Jedi Outcast but if it plays the same are we still going to call it a new game?

And when as proven above, all the powers, all but one gun, and all but two new stances are identical to the way the were in the previous game that pretty much makes up about 80-85% of the multiplayer dynamics. The maps and few new additions making up the 20-25% remaining.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
That is how a debate works, I present a point, validate it, you disagree and invalidate it.

And that's why this is not a debate. You have not, and can never validate, your points. You are repeating and repeating the points thinking that repitition alone will validate your points for you. (argumentum ad absurdum)

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
(I gave you the DFA; now go find me differences for all of the dozens and dozens of swing and combos).

Still waiting for the blow to land...

wait 1
wait 2
wait 3
wait 4

Tell you what. I'll go to sleep here on the floor and you get 8 hours to validate your claims. IF you can validate them, THEN I will participate in the debate (because that's when it starts).

Until then, *yawn*

EDIT: While the weiner dog is coming up with his "proof" I suggest the modders get started on their mods USING THE JO SDK! After all, if the games are EXACTLY THE SAME, the SDK should WORK PERFECTLY (unmodified), shouldn't it?

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 03:54 AM
You are still avoiding the questions laid out to you.



:)


I get all of the same results form all the guns that are in outcast and academy (sniper delay withstanding)

Prove that wrong ^


I get all of the same results from all of the saber swings that are both in Outcast and Academy (dfa button sequence withstanding)


Prove that wrong ^


I get all of the same results on all of the force powers present in Outcast and Academy (grip line of sight restriction withstanding)

Prove that wrong ^




Owned.

Now go back to the swamp and "debate" on yoda vs. dooku you silly noob.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
You are still avoiding the questions laid out to you.



:)

When you ask one, oh weiner dog. :rolleyes:

You could start by trying to poke holes in my last post. Somehow, I don't think you will...

wait 1
wait 2
wait 3
wait 4

*snore*

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
You are still avoiding the questions laid out to you.



:)


I get all of the same results form all the guns that are in outcast and academy (sniper delay withstanding)

Prove that wrong ^


I get all of the same results from all of the saber swings that are both in Outcast and Academy (dfa button sequence withstanding)


Prove that wrong ^


I get all of the same results on all of the force powers present in Outcast and Academy (grip line of sight restriction withstanding)

Prove that wrong ^

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 03:58 AM
well?

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 03:59 AM
one more time:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
You are still avoiding the questions laid out to you.



:)


I get all of the same results form all the guns that are in outcast and academy (sniper delay withstanding)

Prove that wrong ^


I get all of the same results from all of the saber swings that are both in Outcast and Academy (dfa button sequence withstanding)


Prove that wrong ^


I get all of the same results on all of the force powers present in Outcast and Academy (grip line of sight restriction withstanding)

Prove that wrong ^

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 04:19 AM
someone just got owned.

:)

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
I get all of the same results form all the guns that are in outcast and academy (sniper delay withstanding)


Proved it wrong yourself. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I get all of the same results from all of the saber swings that are both in Outcast and Academy (dfa button sequence withstanding)


And you somehow managed to forget that the DFA now takes 50 force. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
I get all of the same results on all of the force powers present in Outcast and Academy (grip line of sight restriction withstanding)

Once again, proved yourself wrong... :rolleyes:

Truly ironic that the questions you want answered are all listed with EXCEPTIONS. Ipso Facto, the games are NOT IDENTICAL.

This has been a test of the Emergency Debate System. If this were a real debate, real questions would be asked and answered. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
someone just got owned.

:)

Boy, did YOU just step on your weiner. ;)

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
He's still of the opinion you're talking out of your anus about JA being built on the same basic code JO is, unnamed.


That, he is. Same basic code, plus a lot of extras. Same/identical code; yeah, he's talking out of his ass.

Originally posted by Ardent
I don't think his definition of nerfed is even in account here, but his opinion of reality probably is.


Same game = nerf
Different game != nerf

Different game = different abilities or the lack thereof.

Originally posted by Ardent

Let's work on the facts here: JO and JA are both built on the Q3ARaven engine. So they have at least that in common.


It is not the SAME Q3ARaven engine. There have been code changes to it. Not to mention the ghoul hit detection code. Not to mention the ragdoll physics... In other words, a LOT of additional code.

Originally posted by Ardent

But that's not the only place we see that they have things in common. They share the same foundations of the saber code. They share the same foundations of the Force code.


Same FOUNDATION; not IDENTICAL CODE.

Originally posted by Ardent

Obviously there has been work done to make improvements, but by the same token, there's been a lot of nerfing done.


New game; no nerfing.

Originally posted by Ardent

We're not asking for something we couldn't do ourselves, which would put you guys in essentially the same position you're trying to avoid now: your list of "acceptable" servers would diminish. Lemme be blunt: that's going to happen no matter what.

Since we're all being blunt here, by all means please do so. If your mod is great and expands the gameplay by so much that even Raven is forced to acknowledge that they goofed, then everyone will benefit.

IF YOU AND YOUR ILK HAVE THE MEANS TO MAKE THIS MOD THEN PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP COMPLAINING AND MAKE IT!

Originally posted by Ardent

As the casual gamers become disenfranchised of the game (when HL2 is released or when Doom 3 is released or when Kerpoppi the video game is released or whatever) and leave, they take their servers with them more often than not. The servers that stick around tend to belong to the clans that have a vested stake in the game; consistantly competitive clans who are active on the ladders, i.e. us. In order to play with other people, rather than bots, you'd have to download our mod and then abide by all the other additions our mod makes.

At least if I am downloading your mod I know what the mod is going to do. As matters stand now I have to put up with joining server after server trying to find a person that didn't turn on every available cvar that I don't want because it's not advertised as such in the description. When you ask for even MORE cvars to be unlocked you just make it harder and harder for someone to find the server they want.

Originally posted by Ardent
but you shouldn't have to download an independently-produced mod for a game to be enjoyable for everyone. In a good game, any given person should be able to find and have access to something they like. We know the old kick code is still there and we like it and we just want access to it. Understand?

What I don't understand is why you think that everyone who is going to buy a game has to be pleased with what they bought. I bought a game that I thought was going to be great. It turned out to be horrible. In addition to gameplay issues, it happened to be extremely buggy. Many people are not and were not happy with this game. Most of us will almost certainly never buy another game in this series, and we will probably never buy a game from that developer again. As a matter of fact, the ONLY way that a considerable amount of us started enjoying the game is BECAUSE of user-created mods. Sure, I was one of many people asking for a patch. We were asking for a patch to address BUGS. Did we ever get it? No.

So, I understand what you are saying. You are saying that you are many seeking to benefit the masses. I am saying that there are probably relatively few of you (compared to how many copies were sold, and are continuing to sell) wanting to make a change that will benefit few. IF (as I mentioned in another thread) you can convince me that a MAJORITY (and I made it easy for you to get that majority -- I mean come on, 20%!) of you can vote in favor of adding back kick to the gameplay then by all means please do so.

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 05:20 AM
In case you missed it, I mentioned the force penalties for basic specials about 400 times in this thread and many others.

I asked you to tell me (I'm going to repeat this for the 700th time) what is different other than the aesthetics and *nerfs?

Pay attention little man, if you can.

Also you may want to re check your assessment of the difference for a DFA, are you positive a DFA costs 50 not 25?

Yep, again you prove just how ignorant you are, now go back and edit that post and deny you ever said it.

So back to my initial question:

Do penguins shoot out of your ass when you press forward+attack in heavy stance?

Does “stairway to Heaven” play when you press the drain key?

Does a Claymation Elvis run across the screen and moon you when you press the alt fire key on the repeater?

Or do you get the same exact results as Jedi Outcast?

Do me a favor, you have proven your are nothing more than an ignorant fool and a noob with no knowledge of game play, just get the hell out of here and go debate yoda vs. dooku in the swamp with the rest of the kids.

btw in case you missed it I'll quote myself to make my comment on "85%" clear as crystal:

And to clarify my comment about it being the same code, is every string of code identical?

Of course not, but it was built off the last game and is not an entirely new build and when I refer to it being "85% the same" I am referring to content and mechanics, not every miniscule line of code in the build.

You could totally change the code in the build but if the content and mechanics remain the same, the overwhelming majority of people are rational enough to grasp it's the same thing.

I could de decompile, alter a few lines of code and recompile Jedi Outcast but if it plays the same are we still going to call it a new game?

And when as proven above, all the powers, all but one gun, and all but two new stances are identical to the way the were in the previous game that pretty much makes up about 80-85% of the multiplayer dynamics. The maps and few new additions making up the 20-25% remaining.

Jeff 42
09-25-2003, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
I get all of the same results form all the guns that are in outcast and academy (sniper delay withstanding)

Actually the sniper nerfing isn't the only change to guns... the DEMP now briefly disables people's weapons when you hit them so it's in fact more useful now... the trip mine secondary mode is now a proximity mine instead of a timed explosive... the lack of a hitbox means it's harder to hit people with any gun, much harder with some (like the pistol) - so you could argue that guns in general have been nerfed to a certain extent. There might be a few other minor changes, but I guess none of this really affects your basic point very much. :)

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
In case you missed it, I mentioned the force penalties for basic specials about 400 times in this thread and many others.


Then you just proved that the code is not the same, nor is it any where near 85%+ LIKE YOU CLAIMED. YOU claimed it, not me.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Also you may want to re check your assessment of the difference for a DFA, are you positive a DFA costs 50 not 25?


Could be. Could it also be 12.5, or 75? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Yep, again you prove just how ignorant you are, now go back and edit that post and deny you ever said it.


Why should I deny I said it? You are proving yourself to be more the fool every time you type on this forum. I have nothing to lose. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

So back to my initial question:

Do penguins shoot out of your ass when you press forward+attack in heavy stance?

Does “stairway to Heaven” play when you press the drain key?

Does a Claymation Elvis run across the screen and moon you when you press the al fire on the repeater?

Or do you get the same results as Jedi Outcast?


Leaving in the drivel for the next moderator to see...

"Move along. Nothing to see here!"

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Do me a favor, you have proven your are nothing more than an ignorant fool and a noob with no knowledge of game play, just get the hell out of here and go debate yoda vs. dooku in the swamp with the rest of the kids.

I AM debating with the kids. Seriously, I know 10 year olds with a better grasp of English and argumentation than you. I take that back. I will not compare you to a kid. That would be insulting to kids.

Whatever, the whiner dog. You may assert all you want. You are nothing more than an ignorant fool who cannot even back up the most basic assertion that is the easiest to prove: "JO = 85% code JA". If you are going to assert rediculous claims don't be surprised when you are called on other claims.

*snore*

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Jeff 42
Actually the sniper nerfing isn't the only change to guns... the DEMP now briefly disables people's weapons when you hit them so it's in fact more useful now... the trip mine secondary mode is now a proximity mine instead of a timed explosive... the lack of a hitbox means it's harder to hit people with any gun, much harder with some (like the pistol) - so you could argue that guns in general have been nerfed to a certain extent. There might be a few other minor changes, but I guess none of this really affects your basic point very much. :)



my basic point has been all along it's the same stuff just nerfed or tweaked in a few rare cases (most are nerfs like you said).

glad someone else can see this.

:)

But I will admit guns are not my thing as far as "serious" use goes so there are bound to be a lot of tiny details I will miss.

I know you guys are not happy about the zoom delay and I had to laugh my ass off when I found out the rocket bug from jk2 was still in ja.

Just another example of how JA is just JO with a new coat of paint and some nerfs.

How many other "new" games keep the exact same individual bugs from sequel to sequel?

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 05:45 AM
FurionStormrage ,

I'm not going to argue with you anymore because you can't even answer my basic questions, hell you even tried to use one of the minor changes I pointed out long ago as a valid answer because you were too much of a =) to come up with your own.

Let's *say no line of code is the same between the two.
Not a single line.

All the stuff that was ported over from Jedi Outcast (guns saber swings and powers) still overwhelmingly remains identical to the way they were with the exception of a few nerfs and penalties.

Some lines of code may be different but it's built on the same engine, the stuff does the exact same thing it did in that previous engine and responds in the exact same way.

Everyone can realize this, why can't you?

Quake 1 > Quake 2 > Quake 3

Different games, same "content" (rocket launchers etc.) but TOTALLY different.

Jedi Knight > Jedi Outcast

Different games, same content (saber, absorb, grip etc.) but totally different.


Jedi Outcast > Jedi Academy same content, was ported over directly on the same engine and it functions identical to how it did on the previous engine with the exception of a few nerfs.


By your "definition" of what makes a new game were 1.03 and 1.04 sequels as well?

I mean they changed a lot more in those patches that got changed from 1.04 Outcast to Academy.

???

Yoda vs. dooku

Let's debate on something more your pace.





:)

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!


All the stuff that was ported over from Jedi Outcast (guns saber swings and powers) still overwhelmingly remains identical to the way they were with the exception of a few nerfs and penalties.



*sigh* If they are different games, there's no nerfing. Why can't you understand that? To nerf: Remove something from THE game. Not a sequel. From the SAME GAME. To continue to call them nerfs is in error. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!


Some lines of code may be different but it's built on the same engine, the stuff does the exact same thing it did in that previous engine and responds in the exact same way.


BUT THEY DON'T WORK IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY OR YOUR PRECIOUS KICK WOULD BE AVAILABLE? Talk about shooting down your own argument...

Originally posted by the weiner dog!


Everyone can realize this, why can't you?


*sigh* Yet another pathetic Appeal to Belief: Everyone believes this; it must be true?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Quake 1 > Quake 2 > Quake 3

Different games, same "content" (rocket launchers etc.) but TOTALLY different.

Jedi Knight > Jedi Outcast

Different games, same content (saber, absorb, grip etc.) but totally different.


True.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!


Jedi Outcast > Jedi Academy same content, was ported over directly on the same engine and it functions identical to how it did on the previous engine with the exception of a few nerfs.


Ported? No. Not the same engine. I wouldn't even expect you to understand what makes it different. Why? Because you have refused to since this all started.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

By your "definition" of what makes a new game were 1.03 and 1.04 sequels as well?


Did you pay money for the patch? Did you no longer need the original JO CD for the patches to work? No? Then they're not sequels. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I mean they changed a lot more in those patches that got changed from 1.04 Outcast to Academy.


Your, as yet not validated, claim. THIS IS THE CLAIM YOU WERE CHALLENGED ON. THIS IS THE CLAIM YOU HAVE AS YET TO PROVE.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

???

Yoda vs. dooku


Implication: No one will win this? How 'bout you refuse to even start...

Originally posted by the weiner dog!


Let's debate on something more your pace.

:)

Then let someone with a clue step forward because I have no pace debating with you. :D

megafu
09-25-2003, 06:14 AM
wow, this is fun isn't it!

not taking sides on this, just thought i'd throw in a cent or 2.

i think when wiener said that JA= 85% JO he didn't mean exact code. That would take some time to actually calculate. I think he meant an approximation in the end product. For instance, to all who program( i'm sure there are many of you out there), we know that there are many ways to code something to get the same result.

ie. Comp Sci 101

add ten number together and output to screen.

there are many ways to figure out this algorithm, the difference being that one solution might be more efficient than others. Same result, different approach.

As for JA the overall impression to MP, is that it looks, feels and plays a lot like JO. Maybe that was the error in LA/Raven to not use a more updated engine and decide to improve on the previous one.

What lacks in JA is creativity. Somthing my friend and i would do in JO was i would grip someone, and he'd come flying by with an air backstab. It was hilarious and fun. Now it would take 5 of those to kill someone, losing it's appeal and fun factor.

ok, enough of me... back to the joust..

[div3rse.jello]
09-25-2003, 06:23 AM
To nerf: Remove something from THE game. Not a sequel. From the SAME GAME. To continue to call them nerfs is in error.

Kinda funny how you make up bullsh*t meanings for words that don't exist. Haha.

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 06:24 AM
Good points, megafu. Unlike JO, we had an SP demo BEFORE the game was released. If people thought it was SOOOOO unoriginal, what exactly were you expecting when you got the game? I mean, come on! Get Real! NEVER expect that the game you are going to get is better than the demo. Geez.

That's why all this pathetic whining is pointless. You had plenty of opportunities to challenge your viewpoint. If you chose not to download the demo before buying the game, well, that's not my problem.

Silly car analogy: You buy a 1998 Civic. You turn it in and buy the 1999 Civic. You expect it to be EXACTLY like the 1998 Civic. You refused to test drive the car. Whose fault is it when you find out (just pulling something out of my hat) that the suspension of the 1998 was a double-wishbone suspension and the 1999 used McPherson struts. Now it takes you three weeks to figure out how to outrun a cop. Is that your fault or the car makers?

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
Kinda funny how you make up bullsh*t meanings for words that don't exist. Haha.

I guess you never look at a thesaurus. :rolleyes:

nerf = delta

delta = a change

A change implies an object to change from.

You receive JA. IT IS NOT JO. There is no CHANGE from your original copy of JA (JA != patched JO by legal definition)

Therefore, no nerf; no change from previous (non-existant) game

As in, you have the very first iteration of JA.

Clear?

C'jais
09-25-2003, 06:40 AM
Was DooM 2 really a sequel?

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 06:44 AM
Look guy straight up, this whole "code difference" debate is pointless.

I'm also going to apologize to you for losing my temper, regardless of why.

So if we can start clean and civil, let me try to be more precise in where I am coming from.


I base my knowledge of this game on my ability to play it.

The number of people who were better with force and a saber in Jedi Outcast than me (in 1v1 play) can be counted on a single hand and still have a few fingers to spare.

No one denies that claim, and those who have quickly changed their opinions after playing me.



I'm really not bragging (although it seems like it) but I want you to understand just how much more I know about this stuff than the average Joe.

And as I stated, I base my comments on my game play experience, not a line of code.

If I can (and have) beat the living crap out of people in Jedi Academy after only playing it for maybe 2 hours *total in the entire duration of this past week that should tell you something.

I'm transferring the exact same knowledge I have of game play over from Jedi Outcast because things are nearly identical in the way they work.

I have to make a few changes in my style because of things like the force special penalties and the lack of double tap kicks and the grip line of sight penalty but the overwhelming majority of my game remains the same.

And the overwhelming result remains the same, I win and it's not even difficult unless I'm playing another skilled player from my clan or a rival clan.

Now looking at my time playing Jedi Outcast, I had to make massive changes in my game when 1.03 came out and even bigger ones when 1.04 came out.

My total style was trashed from patch to patch and I had to develop a new game plan each time but this did *not bother me because I knew so many new possibilities were there.

The problem we have now is all the stuff that was ported over from Outcast we *have mastered.

We know the force powers in and out.

We know the single saber style in and out.

Now you look at the new content, the two stances and here lies a problem.

The staff does decent damage but it's not enough to combat a drain whore.

Now the Katas in all stances fall in the same category, they simply can not get the job done.

The double sabers.. heh yeah right, sorry but they really suck. The specials are a joke as well.

The one new good move that has potential is the rolling stab, problem is the other nerfs really screw it's potential up.

The force cost for specials is one major reason why our game type is screwed all to hell; in full force saber only force is more important than health, no joke.

If I'm going to deplete my pool on moves, I sure as hell better see some serious damage.

But I don't, I just waste it on low damage moves that get dodged by thinking human opponents and even if I do land one it gets drained right back and I'm in a worse position than I was before I tried it.


The grip line of sight restriction, the special penalty are two major things we need "unlocked" if serious complex combos are ever going to be developed.

And the kicks are essential too.

A lot of people think "that’s all we could do to get kills" but could not be more wrong.

They were a tool for CTF people to stop that 90 mph guy in his tracks and they were the link in a chain of complex high damage combos for the ff dueler.

Imagine this:

Saber throw at waist + kick + grip in mid air on flip rebound + kick as you land +release into a rolling stab.

Sounds killer right?

Bet you 90% of the people reading this could never pull that off.

Well, substitute the rolling stab for a light stance lunge and that was a combo I used many a time.

Now what can I do in terms of that complexity?

umm

ummm, not a hell of a lot.

I mean I have a few but they are pretty simple.

We don’t need anything taken out, we need the game "unlocked" and "un nerfed" so we CAN develop new stuff.

Right now there simply is not enough new content to work with and being we know all the old in and out combined with all of the restrictions on the things we *could work with (like specials and grip) we are just out of options.

I’m not joking when I say I see a ton of new combos just waiting be developed in Academy; problem is we have too many nerfs in the exact wrong places to pull them off.

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by C'jais
Was DooM 2 really a sequel?


Sure it was, as is Academy.

But it was the overwhelming same game content was it not?


You yourself even admitted (I can find the exact quote if you like) "there is no point in denying that" when one of us said it is pretty much the exact same thing as Outcast in another thread (or maybe this one, hell if I remember).

Gabrobot
09-25-2003, 06:50 AM
Hmmm...jk2mp.exe is 1.10 mb in size...jamp.exe is 1.45 mb in size. If JA MP is just JK2 MP with some tweaks than why is it bigger? Shouldn't it be about the same size?

The original Jedi Knight was developed by Lucasarts, Jedi Knight 2 and Jedi Academy were developed by Raven. Jedi Knight 2 was a good starting place for Jedi Academy since they had the main part of the engine and weapons. Why should they redesign the weapons? What would they redesign them to do? By redesigning them, it would tack on, at least, an extra year or more...not very smart if they already have a great starting point. (Even John Carmack started with the Quake III engine as a basis and basically rewrote the renderer to make the Doom 3 engine...no need reinventing the wheel if the structure already works.)

Raven used that basis to (in multiplayer) mostly focused on Siege because it's the only really different game type...FFA, Team FFA, CTF have been in games for years...not much to change there. (Also note that while there is FFA and Team FFA, there is only CTF. No Saber Only CTF. The option to play without guns is just that...an option. You can also play without guns and without any force powers (including jump). I'm sure you'd find that boring in JKII as well. :p
My point here is that Raven doesn't guarantee that playing without guns is going to be fun or will be balanced since CTF as it is with guns as JA CTF balance was designed to be played with both guns and sabers. I am not telling you how to play CTF without guns...that's the whole point. If you want to play without guns, that's your choice and you shouldn't demanding that Raven "fix" something which was never broken. JA CTF without guns, according to you, when played by the most skilled players of this type (I'll have to take your word on that), ends up in a stalemate. Well, JA is not JKII so the balancing isn't necessarily going to be exactly the same.) So, besides gameplay tweaks to better balance everything, Raven focused its MP designing on Siege...last time I looked, JKII didn't have anything like Siege...hell, if there were half a dozen more Siege levels, it could've been released as a game in itself! (Like Battlefield 1942)

the weiner dog!
09-25-2003, 06:54 AM
speaking of that...

anyone else see only a few, (and most that are empty most of the time) siege servers?

I mean for something new that we all were excited about it seems to be the CTY or Holocron/Jedi Master mode of this game (the one with little following).

FurionStormrage
09-25-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by C'jais
Was DooM 2 really a sequel?

Yes. The game engine was specifically designed to allow objects to be truly above something in the 3D world. Aesthetically it was a minor update. From a .wad POV it was a minor update. From a game engine standpoint it was a significant update.

Gabrobot
09-25-2003, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!
[snip]

Hmmm...Raven didn't have a few extremely experienced players in mind when they made JA. It's your own loss if you're so experienced that you're bored with the gameplay...I've played JA FFA with both guns and saber (as I've said before) and I haven't had any problems with people spamming things. In fact the most annoying thing is the (approximately) half a second lag time between when I press the button to fire a gun and when it actually fires. Or when saber hits are delayed (this is the worst IMO) where I can't easily swing my saber at someone because swinging where I'd hit them doesn't always hit them because of the lag, and I sometimes get hit with swings which I couldn't avoid since the saber didn't actually hit where I saw it...it's just the lag, and it's not as bad as JKII since it's GHOUL 2 and it's no longer using a bounding box (this made it even easier to be hit without being hit, since you could be hit without being even without lag).

Anyway, my point is that even though I haven't spent obscene amounts of time learning every little part of the game (something I don't see how could have done with JA considering it's only been in stores a week), and even though I have a laggy 56k connection, I could still play and have fun (and win). Most people are like this, and so things that may be a problem with the few of you, are not problems for the thousands of other gamers who play mp.

Also, hopefully there will be more Siege servers, although I came across one (hosted by multiplay.co.uk) that didn't have any players in it. It's too bad that most of the multiplay.co.uk servers don't seem to have any players except for their FFA #1 server which is usually filled completely up. I think that no one else knows of the other servers...

traj
09-25-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Did you pay money for the patch? Did you no longer need the original JO CD for the patches to work? No? Then they're not sequels. :rolleyes:


...wow

nice posts weiner, well thought out.

lllKyNeSlll
09-25-2003, 11:31 PM
watch these 2 demos of ff sabers. its self explanatory
without kick there is no mechanism of killing
demos show a much better explanation than long winded essays

http://www.geocities.com/lllkyneslll/ffsabers1v1.zip

for those of you with lack of bandwidth try this site
www.geocities.com/andrew_xtra/ffsabers1v1.zip
you have to right click and save i think
on one of those demos i purposely attack with saber and play newby. but on another i fully use drain so that it shows how futile it is to fight without kick the only chance of a kill is a spinning grip (to avoid pull/push) and red downslash after the stun and finish with lightning

drain is dominant. sure i can kill newbs, but vers anyone as smart as me or as experienced in drain warring, it will never end. The only reason why i died at all cuz i went in and sabered sometimes and was just messing around in general.

ap.havok
09-25-2003, 11:43 PM
or maybe the game already has kick...

lllKyNeSlll
09-25-2003, 11:51 PM
reborn get the game and watch this demo . till then u have no right to speak

Sam Fisher
09-25-2003, 11:51 PM
Or maybe its just that you need more skill to play JA...

lllKyNeSlll
09-25-2003, 11:56 PM
have u watched the demos? if u see what i mean you should realize that there is no killing mechanism vs a good player. or just even a smart one. think about it, none of those guys could out run me because they can't strafe jump. Second, they waste force so they can't outdrain me third if i repeatedly drain they can't kill me

Kurgan
09-26-2003, 12:09 AM
You're out of bandwidth.. I'll check it out when it comes back, and give you my comments.

Sithrandir
09-26-2003, 12:09 AM
I think what the game needs more than kick (although it would be nice) would be saber duels in which actually USING A SABER AND FIGHTING is a viable option to KILL your opponent instead of having endless drain wars.

Kurgan
09-26-2003, 12:15 AM
This is my cynical side talking... but I think this is the "real" reason that people are so upset about kicks not being present in this NEW GAME.

It's because the illegal beta included them, just like JK2.

Now of course, this leaked beta was NEVER meant to be viewed by the public, so it had all kinds of things in it (according to sources) that weren't the same as the final game.

Some impatient fans of JK2 played the illegal beta and got their impressions of the game set in stone.

Then they played the warez version of the game, which was closer to the real thing, and they were outraged that Kicks were gone.

Then they got it into their heads that the game had been "nerfed" and was no longer fun, because they had been expecting kicks to be there all this time.

It didn't help matters of course that they relied on a style of play that had become wholly dependant on kicking...

Now they hope that by complaining loudly enough Raven will have no choice but to release a "patch" to add this feature back in that they've been expecting ever since the illegal beta, so that they can play exactly the same as they did in JK2.

So honestly I see no one to blame but themselves. They trained themselves to be reliant on kick, set themselves up to believe that kick was in the game (through illegal means) and now they are disappointed because the kicks are not there.

Raven never said anything about kicks being there or not. Kicks could be turned on in the (SP only) demo. So there was no idication there, but they shouldn't have assumed Jedi Academy was going to be JK2 1.05, when it's been marketed as a sequel all along.

Quin
09-26-2003, 12:18 AM
While a radical change.. something I've wanted sence JO is for drain to fill up force insted of life... but I wont beat a dead horse on that one.

I do think saber damage should be raised, I like using g_saberdamagescale 2 or 3 when I play, it seems to work well, though because its a cvar it dosent get used very often. Id really like to see a lot of the cvars put in to the gui so less skilled server admins would use them.

boinga1
09-26-2003, 12:21 AM
Yes Kurgan, you are indeed a cynic. ;) That makes two of us. :D

While you may correct to a certain extent, I HOPE that not all of these players d/led the beta. Although I will admit- formulating a playing atyle that is entirely dependent on kick (a feature which is not actually mentioned in any lega review or site existing before the game) is not a good idea.


C'mon, you guys are creative, you MUST be able to think of SOME way to kill a flagger!

Kurgan
09-26-2003, 12:27 AM
The other thing is, why should people who had no such expectation and didn't play any illegal versions have to suffer through gameplay changing patches (not to mention making Raven waste their time with this rather than fixing other bugs or adding other features) when they actually paid good money for the game (whereas the other guys obviously didn't)?

I'm not saying everbody who wants kicks is a pirate, or that adding kicks (as a toggleable option, like g_debugmelee 2 or something) will ruin the game, I just don't think that their demands really hold that much water.

This kind of reminds me of the time that John Carmack removed Rocket Jumping from Quake3. The mudslide of whining and moaning was so loud, he finally caved in and put it back.

I mean, okay sure, but can't a game developer make the game they want rather than just what some whiners demand? If you don't like the game, can't you mod it or just buy a different game?

And if the pirates really did see that kicks were gone when they played the warez, then surely they were fools to buy the full version, knowing their key buying feature was gone?

Okay, that's enough for now. Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

ap.havok
09-26-2003, 12:44 AM
Kynes, there was no mechanism in JO either. You could drain at will. Do you think anyone could have stopped a skilled player from doing that in JO? No?

DarkangelFOG
09-26-2003, 12:48 AM
With JO we used to run at saberdamagescale 3, but, we tried that out with JA, and it seemed a bit too much. Running on normal damage and seems to go well, but before I end up going completely off topic. This is to everyone who wants kick back. You don't need it. You -do- -not- -need- it. What kick in JO ended up being was everyone spamming it, instead of using their saber. And, if a kick is so important to you, use the Dual Bladed Saber. Sure, it's not the same kick but, did you ever wonder why that is? Simple. It made the game too easy for most people. As far as you running around staying alive using drain all the time. Great. That's good. But, what would you do if you were on a server that didn't have drain? Or, that didn't have weapons? What was that? Use your saber? Really? Good idea!

Raven stated they wanted to work on the -saber- combat of the game. They did just that by removing kick. Quit whining about not having your kick and learn to use your saber. That's what it's there for. Personally, I think Raven did the right thing by trashing kick. It's finally more about the saber fighting, and not who can spam kicks the quickest.

If they do bring back kick, I hope they make it so it can be enabled, or disabled using a cvar. That way everyone is happy, but for now. Learn to use a saber. Might be helpful when you've got no other choice.

g//plaZma
09-26-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by DarkangelFOG
With JO we used to run at saberdamagescale 3, but, we tried that out with JA, and it seemed a bit too much. Running on normal damage and seems to go well, but before I end up going completely off topic. This is to everyone who wants kick back. You don't need it. You -do- -not- -need- it. What kick in JO ended up being was everyone spamming it, instead of using their saber. And, if a kick is so important to you, use the Dual Bladed Saber. Sure, it's not the same kick but, did you ever wonder why that is? Simple. It made the game too easy for most people. As far as you running around staying alive using drain all the time. Great. That's good. But, what would you do if you were on a server that didn't have drain? Or, that didn't have weapons? What was that? Use your saber? Really? Good idea!

Raven stated they wanted to work on the -saber- combat of the game. They did just that by removing kick. Quit whining about not having your kick and learn to use your saber. That's what it's there for. Personally, I think Raven did the right thing by trashing kick. It's finally more about the saber fighting, and not who can spam kicks the quickest.

You telling him to play without force doesn't solve anything. He prefers force, as many jo/ja players do. Telling him to "use your saber" will not guarantee him wins either, especially if all the other players are using force. FF and NF have two different kinds of game mechanics and playing styles. He prefers a more complicated style of playing.

In JK2 when you played full force, your saber was mainly used to defend and throw while force and kicking was used to attack. Many people loved this style of gameplay. People who didn't went to play NF style.

[div3rse.jello]
09-26-2003, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by ap.havok
Kynes, there was no mechanism in JO either. You could drain at will. Do you think anyone could have stopped a skilled player from doing that in JO? No?

Yes anyone could.

All you had to do was kill him. gg

g//plaZma
09-26-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by ap.havok
Kynes, there was no mechanism in JO either. You could drain at will. Do you think anyone could have stopped a skilled player from doing that in JO? No?

Ah yes but in JK2 the rate of healing was less than the damage taken. Basically in JK2, you could drain all you want but that wasn't going to make up for all the damage you're taking from someone kicking you while you drain.

In JA, it's totally different. If someone was to attack me, I could drain all that health taken away in an instant because the rate of healing is a lot higher than the damage taken.

lllKyNeSlll
09-26-2003, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by DarkangelFOG
If they do bring back kick, I hope they make it so it can be enabled, or disabled using a cvar. That way everyone is happy, but for now. Learn to use a saber. Might be helpful when you've got no other choice.

^^ i'll say that is very true and i agree whole heartedly

but about not needing kick or atleast not needing grip hide, you are fairly wrong for 1v1. Yes you might kill but its highly unlikely. Think if u play someone fast moving and draining constantly. All he has to do is consistently run and keep out of your saber range and drain. Say you play light with absorb. He only needs to stay out of range until you run out of absorb and use a combination of lightning and drain to finish you



for those of you with lack of bandwidth try this site
www.geocities.com/andrew_xtra/ffsabers1v1.zip
you have to right click and save i think
on one of those demos i purposely attack with saber and play newby. but on another i fully use drain so that it shows how futile it is to fight without kick the only chance of a kill is a spinning grip (to avoid pull/push) and red downslash after the stun and finish with lightning

Rumor
09-26-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
All a 1vs1 battle means is pitting one's skill against another. I freely admit that my skill level is in all likelihood subpar to his on a gameplay level. Him stomping on my ass is not going to PROVE that JO = 85% JA code. It is not going to PROVE that all moves are IDENTICAL.

The only way to PROVE that the code is identical is a hex listing. Somehow, I don't think any one of you is going to accept this challenge...

its not to test your skill. its not to prove a similarity in the code.

its to show you how utterly absurd your "give it time," etc arguments are.

its to show you how utterly destroyed our gametypes are.

DarkangelFOG
09-26-2003, 02:44 AM
I didn't out right tell him not to play with Force. I asked him if he was on a server that didn't have drain, what would he do? And, besides, if you hit someone right, drain won't matter at all, now would it?

Ardent
09-26-2003, 03:05 AM
I'd play a 5 vs 1 or 6 vs 1 CTF game. Once I got the flag, I guarantee you wouldn't get it back.

I'm a capper because that's what I ended up doing. Not because I'm particularly good at it (I happen to think I'm better at defense, frankly), but I could not only bunny-hop across the levels without slowing down once, but I could use trick bounces and all that other fun stuff. Once I had the flag, I could avoid some of the top returners for quite a while. Nigh on indefinitely if I dipped deeply into my bag of tricks.

One of the first things I did when I got my hands on JA (yes, I own a legitimate copy) was teach myself how to use all the new acrobatics to my advantage. After I had that figured out, I explored and mentally mapped the levels for nooks and crannies I could use.

Once I had that down, I checked out the two new saber forms. I checked out all the new moves, and checked on all the old ones. I adapted my saber play style to take these things into account, but when I tried to employ the tricks I'd learned in CTF I was stymied. If the FC had even the smallest clue he could avoid me for quite some time. Swarming worked, just like it always has. Pushing and pulling worked, just like they always have. Speed sabering someone with a light stance worked, just like they always have. But they're lame compared to knocking someone on their ass and eviscerating them while they're prone.

I've adapted. In fact, in FFAs I always place in the top three, even if it's a guns FFA. A saber-only FFA is my arena, and I dominate pretty much everyone. But it's mostly through judicious use of roll-stab, katas and push/pull to graze on my opposition. That's dumb. JA has totally lost the duel-esque feeling even a crazy FFA could give you. Now it's just a bunch of people flailing their sabers about crazily hoping to hit each other.

FurionStormrage
09-26-2003, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
its not to test your skill. its not to prove a similarity in the code.

its to show you how utterly absurd your "give it time," etc arguments are.

its to show you how utterly destroyed our gametypes are.

Okay, let me get this straight. HE wants me to do a 1vs1 so he can PROVE that the gameplay is the same. YOU want me to do a 1vs1 to PROVE that the gameplay is different. :confused:

Guess what? ALL the single bladed moves are slightly different than they are in JO 1.04. I installed it to see how much the same it all is.

Based on HOW different JO 1.04 and JA 1.0.x is, I think you all need to keep playing. The mechanics are quite different.

FurionStormrage
09-26-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by Ardent

I've adapted. In fact, in FFAs I always place in the top three, even if it's a guns FFA. A saber-only FFA is my arena, and I dominate pretty much everyone. But it's mostly through judicious use of roll-stab, katas and push/pull to graze on my opposition. That's dumb. JA has totally lost the duel-esque feeling even a crazy FFA could give you. Now it's just a bunch of people flailing their sabers about crazily hoping to hit each other.

So, fighting with the sabre is not the solution but kicking people to death is?

=X=Master HeX
09-26-2003, 03:53 AM
From a programmers point of view I just want to give people a bit of closure on what I've observed. JA contains LOTS of the same code from JO. Don't tell me it doesn't when I know for a fact that there were traces of just about all the "new" aspects in the original JO.

Most the default models contained the EXACT replica of saber-staff butterfly and cartwheels.

Ghoul2 locational dmg was already in the works in the JO code.

Tweaking grip for LOS would take me 5 mins in JO.

Removing kick would take longer to recompile the QVMs for JO.

Adding force costs for moves wouldn't take very long.

Two sabers... been done, come-on.

Tweaking Dmg of weapons could be done by change a few numbers...

Locking movement during DFA would be a cut and paste job from red DFA code. Making them spin is more trouble then it's worth.

Pretty kata moves = a few functions to drag out saber drawing, some animation work, and collision information.

Hit boxes for models is a bit more involving, and are FAR from perfect at the moment.

This, in all seriousness, should have been an expansion and not branded a new game. I can't wait to take a look at the new SDK when it's released. Don't expect more then a bunch of functions moved around and made to look pretty in .net. Sure there would be some fresh new code here... but I mean the basic layout will look exactly like any other q3 game. Raven did a nice job but this is so much like a "nerfed" version of JO... Only time will tell if they answer the cries of the community. If not, then I'll be forced to do it again.

[div3rse.jello]
09-26-2003, 06:23 AM
GF

MrDomin0
09-26-2003, 06:33 AM
Look, it's simple to dismiss the Two-handed/Dual sabers thing as easy. But a lot of work was clearly put into that aspect to make it look technically correct and at least marginally balanced. I concede that it is very much the same game functionally, but so what? So it's the same engine, so it operates very similar to its predecessor, it's a big game. Too big to be just considered an expansion. I mean, Raven never claimed it was some earth-shattering sequel. It's a stop-gap till the next itineration.

CaptainJackZ
09-26-2003, 11:11 AM
Well I just started reading this thread, and I definitly have something to say to Wade

You said:I'd say that's reason enough to not bring back kick, stop your "s/o l33tist's" from saying "we're the best at s/o we know what's right", if the rest of us in every game type has had to learn new ways to do stuff, why in hell are you any different? You've lost something? We all have! Your skill is soooooo good in s/o that you spend more time complaining here about it than trying to find ways around it! Face it, you've lost kick, s/o is NOT in the majority (no matter how much your ego believes it is) so deal with the loss! I can't believe you'll spend so much time complaining, it's sad."

That's because gametypes like ffa take very little skill. All it is running around slashing, and THAT is what ctf has become. There are no "tricks" you need to learn for ffa. CTF and Duel are the two gametypes you always needed the most skill for in jk2. However in JA, there just isn't much you can do anymore. I don't know about you but I don't find an exciting game of ctf to be chasing after the fc slashing like a moron with almost 0 chance of killing him. :rolleyes:

Ardent
09-26-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by CaptainJackZ
That's because gametypes like ffa take very little skill. All it is running around slashing, and THAT is what ctf has become. There are no "tricks" you need to learn for ffa. CTF and Duel are the two gametypes you always needed the most skill for in jk2. However in JA, there just isn't much you can do anymore. I don't know about you but I don't find an exciting game of ctf to be chasing after the fc slashing like a moron with almost 0 chance of killing him. :rolleyes:

This is exactly the stance the ff s/o ctf community has maintained from the beginning as a whole. FF S/O CTF in JA is lame. In JO it moves faster than most people can track. Heck, I'm not really consciously playing the game when I'm doing stuff like speedrage capping. It's too fast to try to handle it on a conscious level. It's almost all reflexive. I've trained myself to go through the motions subconsciously. The only thing my conscious mind is doing it making sure nobody's in my way.

Now FF S/O CTF is...well it feels like running down the odd kid out and beating him down with broomsticks. There's nothing very fast or very exciting about that...it's just a drawn-out hate crime.

Kicking was never intended to be a primary mode of offense, and in a serious game you're not going to use it as one. But it was integral to keeping CTF and, to a lesser extent any S/O battle fast-paced and exciting, without making you feel like your avatar is a ragdoll in a shredding machine. It hit a very fine balance, and it only seemed to hit this balance with the higher-caliber competitors. So for a lot of people it seemed like kicking was broken or imbalanced or garbage or whatever. But to the FF S/O CTF and FF dueling community it was a vital link in their ability to chain precise combination attacks.

This doesn't really need to be re-iterated, guys. It's obvious to anyone who plays with us in JO why kick is so important. We've openly invited you all to come play and more than a few of us intend to be gracious about it. Don't harass us and we won't harass you.

Comm539
09-26-2003, 03:06 PM
gf

Rumor
09-26-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
Okay, let me get this straight. HE wants me to do a 1vs1 so he can PROVE that the gameplay is the same. YOU want me to do a 1vs1 to PROVE that the gameplay is different. :confused:

Guess what? ALL the single bladed moves are slightly different than they are in JO 1.04. I installed it to see how much the same it all is.

Based on HOW different JO 1.04 and JA 1.0.x is, I think you all need to keep playing. The mechanics are quite different.

you still missed the point.

There is so much that is EXACTLY THE SAME that he will easily dominate you.

There is so much that is TAKEN OUT that you won't have a chance of killing him.

JO any player had a CHANCE of killing. JA there isn't vs a really good player.

Gabrobot
09-26-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by =X=Master HeX
...
Two sabers... been done, come-on.
...

This statement shows that you really aren't as knowledgeable as you claim to be. The mods in JO which had two sabers used the same animations as a single saber. JA actually has new animations for two sabers so that it's actually true two sabers rather than single saber animations with a second saber attached to the players left hand. (In fact, JA has over twice as many animations as JKII had!)

Also, I don't remember any vehicle system which allowed editors to easily create vehicles from ridable animals to pilotable ground vehicles to flyable space craft in JO...I also don't remember JO including any of the above in MP. I don't remember a gametype which revolves around using those vehicles and specific player class types to complete objectives either. In fact, it seems that that's a hell of a lot of stuff considering that that was enough to base an entire game around (BF1942)! Raven wasn't trying to reinvent a saber system which already worked. They tweaked it and they added to it. They took what they had and because much of it was already done, they were able to make a much larger game then JKII. There are somewhere around 60-70 levels when you count both SP and MP levels...that's no expansion pack, and certainly no mod.

Ardent
09-26-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
This statement shows that you really aren't as knowledgeable as you claim to be. The mods in JO which had two sabers used the same animations as a single saber. JA actually has new animations for two sabers so that it's actually true two sabers rather than single saber animations with a second saber attached to the players left hand. (In fact, JA has over twice as many animations as JKII had!)

Also, I don't remember any vehicle system which allowed editors to easily create vehicles from ridable animals to pilotable ground vehicles to flyable space craft in JO...I also don't remember JO including any of the above in MP. I don't remember a gametype which revolves around using those vehicles and specific player class types to complete objectives either. In fact, it seems that that's a hell of a lot of stuff considering that that was enough to base an entire game around (BF1942)! Raven wasn't trying to reinvent a saber system which already worked. They tweaked it and they added to it. They took what they had and because much of it was already done, they were able to make a much larger game then JKII. There are somewhere around 60-70 levels when you count both SP and MP levels...that's no expansion pack, and certainly no mod.

The difference between what Hex knows compared to what you know can measured only in googaplexes. Nothing personal, but Hex could probably rewrite JA's code to make it a porno video if he really wanted to. Just because you've never seen a working version doesn't mean it wasn't out there. The FF S/O CTF community had quite a few mods that weren't shared or widespread outside of our community.

FurionStormrage
09-26-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
The FF S/O CTF community had quite a few mods that weren't shared or widespread outside of our community.

So, it sounds to me like you already had one. So, why doesn't your community make a patch if Mr. Hex can "rewrite JA into a porno movie"? Sounds like unlocking a cvar shouldn't be out of his technical expertise. :rolleyes:

FurionStormrage
09-26-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
you still missed the point.

There is so much that is EXACTLY THE SAME that he will easily dominate you.

There is so much that is TAKEN OUT that you won't have a chance of killing him.

JO any player had a CHANCE of killing. JA there isn't vs a really good player.

I have already clearly stated that I would have no chance of killing him. Why? Because I am not as good! I don't care if we fight JO 1.02, 1.04, 1.04 OR JA. He's probably going to win. So, me fighting him will prove EXACTLY WHAT? That he can probably whip my ass?

Gabrobot
09-26-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
The difference between what Hex knows compared to what you know can measured only in googaplexes. Nothing personal, but Hex could probably rewrite JA's code to make it a porno video if he really wanted to. Just because you've never seen a working version doesn't mean it wasn't out there. The FF S/O CTF community had quite a few mods that weren't shared or widespread outside of our community.

I see that because you don't actually have the knowledge to address any of the things which I said, you had to resort to saying that I know nothing and that Hex knows a godly amount. Well, I never heard of any great rewriting, of anything, which Hex has done, so pardon if I take that with a grain of salt. Please give evidence of such enormous undertakings.

Another point would like make about JA's differences is this: both JKII and JA use func_plats (lifts) which behave in the same way as the ones in the original Quake...that doesn't mean that JKII and JA are mods of the original Quake. It means that the code for the ones in the original Quake worked well enough that they were never changed in the past 8 years!

CaptainJackZ
09-26-2003, 07:56 PM
Anybody who calls Hex not knowledgeable deserves an ass kicking. He's an awesome programmer! Ever heard of the X mod?

Gabrobot
09-26-2003, 08:15 PM
I didn't say he isn't knowledgeable. I said he isn't as knowledgeable as he claims to be...I said that because of his incorrect statements.

xMod seems to be just a lot of tweaks. While it is not a small achievement, it is not a total rewrite of JO, nor is it as large an accomplishment as adding a whole new gametype as large as Siege (as Raven did in JA).

the weiner dog!
09-26-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan

Then they got it into their heads that the game had been "nerfed" and was no longer fun, because they had been expecting kicks to be there all this time.

It didn't help matters of course that they relied on a style of play that had become wholly dependant on kicking...

Now they hope that by complaining loudly enough Raven will have no choice but to release a "patch" to add this feature back in that they've been expecting ever since the illegal beta, so that they can play exactly the same as they did in JK2.

So honestly I see no one to blame but themselves. They trained themselves to be reliant on kick, set themselves up to believe that kick was in the game (through illegal means) and now they are disappointed because the kicks are not there.




You don't know how dead wrong you are there man, no joke.

We would train ourselves to rely on anything that worked; a competitive player plays for the win, not style or dramatic effect.

The reason we used kick in 1.04 Outcast was we had no other viable options to compete with 1.04 drain.

It was simply using the one tool in your arsenal that could compete with that power.

The sabers in Outcast were weak as crap; no one will argue this point will they?

Now considering in Academy (in saber only modes) they are in many cases even weaker (a dead on DFA only does like 50 damage now) we are at a point where we have to try and find something that can compete with the mighty drain.

-sabers could not do it in outcast because they were too weak, (and before anyone pipes in with some "get some saber skill" comment let me inform everyone that some of the best full force duelists are also some of the best no force duelists) and in Academy they are now causing even less damage so that option is out once again.

If you can honestly tell me how a 30-50 damage swing can kill a guy who can drain back damage at three times the rate you can cause it, please do enlighten me.

-No combos revolving around kick mechanics.


That leaves only one option left.

Play "Euro style".

This is an inside term we use due to the way many European competition level players play.

They will not get within 50 feet of their opponent and only use long range attacks like level 1/2 lightning and long range pull throws.

They also use level 2 drain in conjunction with strafe jumping around the map (constantly) so as to heal but never get "healed off of".


It's cheap as hell but I won't lie, it's just as effective in Academy as it was in Outcast and 99% of most players have no clue how to counter that style.

Problem is when you get two skilled/experienced people who do play that way, it takes a good 20-30 minutes just for one single round to end, and that's just absurd.


I’m really not trying to be a jerk, but you guys keep saying we are “stuck in the past” or “need to learn the new game” but fail to realize just how utterly impossible it is to kill a skilled player who can heal at 3 times the rate you can damage him, yet none of you can offer any realistic solutions to this problem.

As I stated, sabers don’t do enough damage to out last the drain whoring, the combos are now gone, other than the long range attacks and constant running (from his drain) there is simply no options left.

Pleases, do enlighten us if any of you can, I’m not being sarcastic either.

Rumor
09-26-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
I have already clearly stated that I would have no chance of killing him. Why? Because I am not as good! I don't care if we fight JO 1.02, 1.04, 1.04 OR JA. He's probably going to win. So, me fighting him will prove EXACTLY WHAT? That he can probably whip my ass?

no that he can beat you with the exact same tactics (minus kick combos) and that it takes 10 times longer than it did in JO.

often times rounds in JO would last under 15 seconds, with some of the shortest being under 5 seconds.

boinga1
09-27-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Now considering in Academy (in saber only modes) they are in many cases even weaker (a dead on DFA only does like 50 damage now) we are at a point where we have to try and find something that can compete with the mighty drain.


Have you tried Absorb recently? It is really QUITE effective at limiting Drain attacks.

Adn yes, the fact that the force effect is visible means your opponent will wait until the effect is gone and your drained by the absorb...then he will strike. You can always turn off Absorb, in the absence of an immeditate threat.

Rumor
09-27-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by boinga1
Have you tried Absorb recently? It is really QUITE effective at limiting Drain attacks.

Adn yes, the fact that the force effect is visible means your opponent will wait until the effect is gone and your drained by the absorb...then he will strike. You can always turn off Absorb, in the absence of an immeditate threat.

clue·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klls)
adj.
Lacking understanding or knowledge.

i think that sums it up pretty well.

g//plaZma
09-27-2003, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
i think that sums it up pretty well.

Yes it does sum it up, Rumor. Absorb, like all other force powers take mana (or force, for all you non-jk1 players) from your force pool. A good player will wait and strafe jump all over the map so you can't catch up to him till your forcepool is depleted and go in for the drain then, causing your force pool to go to 0 and stay there as long as he drains (unless you're on one of those lame servers that have g_forceregentime set to -9999999 or something).

And last I checked, absorb wasn't a dark force power. So basically you're saying that anyone who wants to beat an experienced player needs to go lightside to win? Not only is this not balanced but I just proved your tactic to be useless against an experienced player in my first paragraph.

Gabrobot
09-27-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Rumor
i think that sums it up pretty well.

Ah, you seem to lack the understanding or knowledge required to reply to boinga1's points, so instead you hint that you think he doesn't know what he's talking about. :D
Well, please respond to his points...he's trying to offer a solution to your problem, which I don't think has been addressed yet (the solution, not the problem).

I have also found that absorb is actually quite effective...I have had someone send a huge lightning attack (or other dark power attack) at me, and I end up losing no health and a full force bar. And being able to turn absorb off means I don't waste half my force because I thought someone would attack me with a dark power, and they didn't...

Gabrobot
09-27-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Yes it does sum it up, Rumor. Absorb, like all other force powers take mana (or force, for all you non-jk1 players) from your force pool. A good player will wait and strafe jump all over the map so you can't catch up to him till your forcepool is depleted and go in for the drain then, causing your force pool to go to 0 and stay there as long as he drains (unless you're on one of those lame servers that have g_forceregentime set to -9999999 or something).

Last time I checked, you could turn absorb off...

lllKyNeSlll
09-27-2003, 01:01 AM
no seriously, someone would simply just use lightning for split seconds and turn it off when absorb comes on and wait it out.
And when they turn it off just lightning again.

lllKyNeSlll
09-27-2003, 01:09 AM
And also drain doesn't give absorb more force. You can drain and the abosrber will still lose force. Simply listen. Only a newb would waste force draining on an abosrber.

Gabrobot
09-27-2003, 01:20 AM
Well, if you say so...but...

I just thought of something...if you're in a level where there aren't many high drops, how can kick help? It seems that if you kick them down, in JA, they'll be able to kick you back, roll to the side or do a flip thingy backwards...

g//plaZma
09-27-2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Well, if you say so...but...

I just thought of something...if you're in a level where there aren't many high drops, how can kick help? It seems that if you kick them down, in JA, they'll be able to kick you back, roll to the side or do a flip thingy backwards...

Move around while they're on the ground (strafing to the side would be sufficiant to avoid a counter-kick), saberthrow them or just pull them (if they don't hit force push first) and kick them again. Same as how it worked in JO with an added danger of you getting kicked back if you don't move out of the way.

Rumor
09-27-2003, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Ah, you seem to lack the understanding or knowledge required to reply to boinga1's points, so instead you hint that you think he doesn't know what he's talking about. :D
Well, please respond to his points...he's trying to offer a solution to your problem, which I don't think has been addressed yet (the solution, not the problem).

I have also found that absorb is actually quite effective...I have had someone send a huge lightning attack (or other dark power attack) at me, and I end up losing no health and a full force bar. And being able to turn absorb off means I don't waste half my force because I thought someone would attack me with a dark power, and they didn't...

Originally posted by Rumor
clue·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klls)
adj.
Lacking understanding or knowledge.
i think that sums it up pretty well.

ap.havok
09-27-2003, 02:43 AM
Garobot, your totally wrong about every thing you said. All competivie players want kick in the game. If you do not want kick there is an option to turn it off. The kick we have now is totally useless.

[div3rse.jello]
09-27-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Rumor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
clue·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klls)
adj.
Lacking understanding or knowledge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i think that sums it up pretty well.
i think that sums it up pretty well.

Gabrobot
09-27-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Move around while they're on the ground (strafing to the side would be sufficiant to avoid a counter-kick), saberthrow them or just pull them (if they don't hit force push first) and kick them again. Same as how it worked in JO with an added danger of you getting kicked back if you don't move out of the way.

What about if the person on the ground roles to the side? From what I've seen, it's not possible to hit someone with saber throw when they're rolling (which they can start before the other player has time to throw their saber since the kick animation has to end). The player who was kicked would then be able to use drain to replenish any health back that was lost as a result of being kicked, and neither player would have gained anything.

Originally posted by ap.havok
If you do not want kick there is an option to turn it off.

Unfortunately, I have to join other servers since I have a 56k connection, and can't host my own server with my own options.

the weiner dog!
09-27-2003, 08:28 AM
hi reborn/havoc.
:)


And guys let's clear this up once and for all, absorb is 99.99999% useless in 1v1 matches.

It does have it's use in other game types, but in duels, light siders are at a serious disadvantage.

Let me give you a detailed and simple example of how easy it is to rape one in a match as a dark:

Match starts; we do the "Mexican standoff" (pacing back and forth looking for an opening).

Short 1 1/2 second blast from level 2 lightning (from about 20 feet away).

He takes the hit.


Another short 1 1/2 second blast.

He flips on absorb and rushes.


I am still about 20 feet out (level 2 lightning has a very long range in case you didn't know) but I back out even further.

I have no music on; my sound is all the way up as well. Hearing absorb is not an issue for me even at long rage.

As I continue my retreat I also mentally count down in my head. Absorb has a duration time so when I get down to about 3 seconds, even if it's still on I turn and rush.

The second it goes off I pepper him with another short lightning blast and he tries to chase again, I retreat yet again.


Now let's look at where we are at:

He's got hit with almost 4-5 seconds of lightning at level 2; chances are he's around 60 hp.

He's activated absorb twice, and as you all know there is an initial activation cost and your force pool ticks down gradually as it is left on.

Not to mention when he had it on, I did not pull him or use any power like lightning that would add to his pool (hence the retreat strategy).

So his pool is pretty damn low, his hp is almost 1/2 gone as well.

Me?

100 hp and a full pool.

Time to move in for the kill.

Keep backing off until the absorb shuts off, the second it's off he's going to run like hell because he's totally exposed due to having only like 15 force left in his pool.

Once it's turned off I drain him down to 0 with a 1/2 second blast.

From this point on I drain and chip non stop.

He has no defense so I do two immediate back to back pull throws for 60 damage.

If by some miracle he's still alive, again, all I have to do is regen 5 force points (to bring me to 25, the minimum number to activate drain) to start the non stop drain whoring so he's s.o.l either way.


Trust us guys, light *can be pulled off in duels but very damn few people are good enough to do it.

And even then, those who are great light side players can't do it on every map.

Some maps that are large and have lot's of places and spots to evade can make it easier, but the majority of maps are "boxed in" confined places and you simply have no where to run and regen.




Now in Outcast, we had developed a way to use mind trick in conjunction with kicks to combat drain whoring, but again, with kicks gone mind trick is useless once more.

You swing, it turns off.

Your swings don't do high damage, you get drained and he's 100 hp and you are screwed because you have 0 force now.



Also you need to understand that the knock down in a duel was more of a "set up".

Where as in CTF it was the "key to the kill".

They (CTF) could kick + dfa and such, in duels that stuff simply does not work.

We drop a guy, we rush him, throw a saber *as you run in, aim it high so he flips up *into it, and as he springs up kick him out of the air and launch into another follow up combo for the finish.

AxVegetA
09-27-2003, 09:11 AM
Are you able to defend yourself against lightning with the saber? at least in SP you can.

Hey wheiner dog whoever uses that strategy is a fag noob.

You know that the other can chase-pull you right? also, when using drain you have no defense for a second, i can saber throw you to the head and youll be dead in that second.
Also i can use speed to chase and smash you, oviusly if i fail you have the advantage because i would be out of force.

I wouldnt bother to turn absorb if you light me with level 2. I would just strafe jump toward you and cut your head off.

Are you aware that i can run away from you too? I can hide heal and so on.

But i guess overall you are right, dark side is more powerfull than light side.

Ardent
09-27-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Ah, you seem to lack the understanding or knowledge required to reply to boinga1's points, so instead you hint that you think he doesn't know what he's talking about. :D
Well, please respond to his points...he's trying to offer a solution to your problem, which I don't think has been addressed yet (the solution, not the problem).

Trust us, if you've thought of it, we've tried it.

I have also found that absorb is actually quite effective...I have had someone send a huge lightning attack (or other dark power attack) at me, and I end up losing no health and a full force bar. And being able to turn absorb off means I don't waste half my force because I thought someone would attack me with a dark power, and they didn't...

Nobody is saying absorb is ineffective. We're saying it isn't the be-all and end-all of FF dueling. In fact, if you're a light side FF duelist, you're either totally awesome or pretty terrible. It is a LOT harder to win a FF duel when you're light side. Drain > heal. Rage > Protect. Lightning > Mind Trick. Grip > Absorb. Dark side force powers are just eminently more useful in the 1v1 setting. Which doesn't mean you can't win as a light side FF duelist, because I know I have. You're just not going to do as well as you could if you played dark side.

Hence, you're clueless about the gametype.

As far as my not addressing your prior points, they're not worth addressing. The vehicle code isn't all that new, there's just more of it to account for new types of mounts. When you get right down to it, nothing done in JA is new. It's all been done before, and we're not complaining about its inclusion. But the game is, by its nature, largely the same code when you dissect it. There's more of it, yes, and some of it's new, yes, but the point that the game could have been released as a mod for Jedi Outcast is pretty viable. Drop the new terrain system, ghoul2 targetting and the improved EAX soundwork and it very much is JO with a few new features.

Thanks for playing.

Gabrobot
09-28-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
Trust us, if you've thought of it, we've tried it.



Nobody is saying absorb is ineffective. We're saying it isn't the be-all and end-all of FF dueling. In fact, if you're a light side FF duelist, you're either totally awesome or pretty terrible. It is a LOT harder to win a FF duel when you're light side. Drain > heal. Rage > Protect. Lightning > Mind Trick. Grip > Absorb. Dark side force powers are just eminently more useful in the 1v1 setting. Which doesn't mean you can't win as a light side FF duelist, because I know I have. You're just not going to do as well as you could if you played dark side.

Hence, you're clueless about the gametype.

I never claimed to have any experience with being a FF duelist. I was just stating my observation a made when I was playing a FFA game. I was just trying to find out why absorb wasn't as effective with you, since I don't play without guns. The way things are balanced works fine in Siege...I think that's where Raven put their focus on.

Originally posted by Ardent
As far as my not addressing your prior points, they're not worth addressing. The vehicle code isn't all that new, there's just more of it to account for new types of mounts. When you get right down to it, nothing done in JA is new. It's all been done before, and we're not complaining about its inclusion. But the game is, by its nature, largely the same code when you dissect it. There's more of it, yes, and some of it's new, yes, but the point that the game could have been released as a mod for Jedi Outcast is pretty viable. Drop the new terrain system, ghoul2 targetting and the improved EAX soundwork and it very much is JO with a few new features.

I think I'd better make it clear that I actually know a bit about this area so you can't go around making false statements in regard to this. There was no vehicle code at all in JKII multiplayer. None. And the vehicle code in SP was done for the specific vehicles...editors couldn't create their own. Raven has made a vehicle system, in JA, which did not exist in JKII, in either SP or MP. This system is on the same level as that of the NPC system (and in fact the two are somewhat connected since there must be a NPC for the vehicle). If vehicle support was so easy, it would have been done in JKII.

Now I'm going to list some features that are now in MP:

- shader limit 16 times higher then that of JKII (I noticed you never mentioned anything about this despite the fact that this is a somewhat major change).

- ICARUS II scripting

- Raven's ARIOCHE terrain system

- portal skies

- Ghoul II enhancements including the Ghoul infinite Model modification system - Allows for modular model enhancements, custom colorization, and expanded animation support


Ok, sure if you remove all those, you'd get about what JKII is...but that's why JA isn't JKII, because it has all of the above. :rolleyes:

Things like the shader limit, ARIOCHE terrain, portal skies and the Ghoul II enhancements aren't things that a mod can do. These are enhancements to the game engine itself and would require a change to the JKII MP executable.

Oh, another thing...a large mod team started a co-op mod for JKII, but gave up because they couldn't get the NPCs and ICARUS scripting worked out (I don't think they even had any code for the scripting system...). They also couldn't get past a NPC limit that's lower in JKII MP then in JKII SP (something which was in the executable and not changeable)...there were too many NPCs in the Raven SP JKII levels.

And about the importance of the shader limit...this is probably the single most important problem, in my opinion (and all the other SP level editors...probably any MP editors trying to make large levels, as well. Even the mighty Anthony Piggott himself couldn't release his level because it hit the limit.), with JKII from an editing stand point. I had to split up two of the levels, in the SP JKII (I'll probably just release it for JA though) episode I'm making, when I added metashadered (with a lightmap. Oh, and metashading is somewhat broken in JKII SP, and I doubt it even works in MP since JKII MP is so limited.) terrain (not very big either...only a 4096 unit square). It hit a shader limit because of how many surfaces the terrain had, as well as the lightmap and the fact that I was using Q3map2 instead of Sof2map.

In JA, if it lacked these features, it would be impossible for Siege to work very well, since the levels would have to be either really small with no terrain, or big with no detail and no terrain. Also, even though you probably never noticed, in the Hoth Siege level, the mountains are done in real time. In fact they are part of a portal skybox, and the terrain is using the ARIOCHE terrain system.

So basically, if all these features were not in JA, the levels in JA would also not be there as they require the changes made to the engine and renderer. The levels in JA can't be done in JKII. JKII's version of the Team Arena engine doesn't have the technology required.

fk | screed
09-28-2003, 02:24 AM
How about this, you all STFU and go /amsit around in circles singing koombaya in the new Jedi Council room FFA map. YOu bunch of RPG faggots!

There im done posting about this game.

g//plaZma
09-28-2003, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
I never claimed to have any experience with being a FF duelist. I was just stating my observation a made when I was playing a FFA game. I was just trying to find out why absorb wasn't as effective with you, since I don't play without guns. The way things are balanced works fine in Siege...I think that's where Raven put their focus on.



I think I'd better make it clear that I actually know a bit about this area so you can't go around making false statements in regard to this. There was no vehicle code at all in JKII multiplayer. None. And the vehicle code in SP was done for the specific vehicles...editors couldn't create their own. Raven has made a vehicle system, in JA, which did not exist in JKII, in either SP or MP. This system is on the same level as that of the NPC system (and in fact the two are somewhat connected since there must be a NPC for the vehicle). If vehicle support was so easy, it would have been done in JKII.

Now I'm going to list some features that are now in MP:

- shader limit 16 times higher then that of JKII (I noticed you never mentioned anything about this despite the fact that this is a somewhat major change).

- ICARUS II scripting

- Raven's ARIOCHE terrain system

- portal skies

- Ghoul II enhancements including the Ghoul infinite Model modification system - Allows for modular model enhancements, custom colorization, and expanded animation support


Ok, sure if you remove all those, you'd get about what JKII is...but that's why JA isn't JKII, because it has all of the above. :rolleyes:

Things like the shader limit, ARIOCHE terrain, portal skies and the Ghoul II enhancements aren't things that a mod can do. These are enhancements to the game engine itself and would require a change to the JKII MP executable.

Oh, another thing...a large mod team started a co-op mod for JKII, but gave up because they couldn't get the NPCs and ICARUS scripting worked out (I don't think they even had any code for the scripting system...). They also couldn't get past a NPC limit that's lower in JKII MP then in JKII SP (something which was in the executable and not changeable)...there were too many NPCs in the Raven SP JKII levels.

And about the importance of the shader limit...this is probably the single most important problem, in my opinion (and all the other SP level editors...probably any MP editors trying to make large levels, as well. Even the mighty Anthony Piggott himself couldn't release his level because it hit the limit.), with JKII from an editing stand point. I had to split up two of the levels, in the SP JKII (I'll probably just release it for JA though) episode I'm making, when I added metashadered (with a lightmap. Oh, and metashading is somewhat broken in JKII SP, and I doubt it even works in MP since JKII MP is so limited.) terrain (not very big either...only a 4096 unit square). It hit a shader limit because of how many surfaces the terrain had, as well as the lightmap and the fact that I was using Q3map2 instead of Sof2map.

In JA, if it lacked these features, it would be impossible for Siege to work very well, since the levels would have to be either really small with no terrain, or big with no detail and no terrain. Also, even though you probably never noticed, in the Hoth Siege level, the mountains are done in real time. In fact they are part of a portal skybox, and the terrain is using the ARIOCHE terrain system.

So basically, if all these features were not in JA, the levels in JA would also not be there as they require the changes made to the engine and renderer. The levels in JA can't be done in JKII. JKII's version of the Team Arena engine doesn't have the technology required.

We're talking about gameplay not pretty graphics.

Ardent
09-28-2003, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
We're talking about gameplay not pretty graphics.

I think plaz hit the crux of the issue at hand. Graphics and technical boosts are nice but...well...I still play NES and SNES games. So they're obviously not the be-all and end-all.

FurionStormrage
09-28-2003, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
I think plaz hit the crux of the issue at hand. Graphics and technical boosts are nice but...well...I still play NES and SNES games. So they're obviously not the be-all and end-all.

I think the point of Gabrobot's post is that despite assertions that JA is just a mod of JO, JA has a LOT more than JO and that features couldn't be in the game because support for them ISN'T THERE.

It is highly unlikely that JA could have so much additional code without having at least some impact on gameplay...

Ardent
09-28-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by FurionStormrage
I think the point of Gabrobot's post is that despite assertions that JA is just a mod of JO, JA has a LOT more than JO and that features couldn't be in the game because support for them ISN'T THERE.

It is highly unlikely that JA could have so much additional code without having at least some impact on gameplay...

You're talking about ultimately separate code. Except in the case of ghoul2 none of this directly affects gameplay in any significant way, and nobody seems to be terribly impressed with the highly buggy ghoul2. You could pull out the ARIOCHE engine and replace it with the old one and the game would still run (although not properly without a lot of de-bugging). The end.

The point we've been trying to make is that everything we loved JO for is still in there. We want a cvar to access one of those things. That's all. We've actually written a bunch of e-mails and have received positive responses. Raven didn't seem to realize that flip-kicking was so integral to at least one mode of play.

Gabrobot
09-28-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
You're talking about ultimately separate code. Except in the case of ghoul2 none of this directly affects gameplay in any significant way, and nobody seems to be terribly impressed with the highly buggy ghoul2. You could pull out the ARIOCHE engine and replace it with the old one and the game would still run (although not properly without a lot of de-bugging). The end.

You don't seem to be getting the point...there was never a terrain engine like ARIOCHE in JKII. If you pulled it out of JA, JA would crash when it would try loading a level which has ARIOCHE generated terrain (which is many of the levels in the game)...this is because the JA engine has to build the terrain, from a height map, in the level when the level is loading. I won't go into this further since you don't seem capable of understanding these simple concepts...

And about the Ghoul II...there isn't anything wrong with it. The problem is the lag. It's just that now you have to be more accurate so it becomes more noticeable. (Ghoul II works fine in the bot matches)

And about gameplay...you seem to be completely ignoring Siege. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Raven just made sure that the other gametypes, besides Siege, worked with the tweaks, they made because of Siege, when played without disabling guns? Siege has a new type of gameplay due to the addition of objectives, vehicles and larger levels...I don't remember ever playing anything like Siege in JKII, and one of the reasons Siege plays differently is the fact that it's levels are larger because the engine can handle larger levels now!

Sure it may be "pretty graphics", but when the level is barely chugging along at 5 fps with most of it, and the models in it, textured with the default grid texture, it directly affects the gameplay. Not to mention you wouldn't even be able to make a level on the same scale as what's possible in JA, without crashes occuring.

One last thing I would like to make a note about. To me (and it seems Raven, as well, since they focused their attention on SP in both JKII and JA), multiplayer is just an addition to SP. Why do I say this? Because what is done in MP is always determined by whether it's in SP. There isn't a Chewie model, in JA, to appease RPGers (who gives a **** about them...this is an action game). The reason it's there is because Chewie is in SP. It's the same for all the other models. It has JKII models so that JA is backwards compatible. (That's not all it needs...JA also needs to "automagically" convert JKII levels for them to work.)
Also, the locations for the levels are all locations from the SP game (there are some exceptions, like the Bespin duel level, but that's possible because JA includes JKII's textures. JKII had Bespin textures because it was a location in SP).

The reason I bring that up is that some people don't seem to realize that the stuff they're playing wasn't the main focus of Raven's attention and might not hold up well when people's skills get abnormally high in it. (Abnormal, as in the gametype, with certain tools turned off *hint*guns*hint*, wasn't intended to be played with such highly developed skill.)

Anyway, I would rather someone made a mod for you to keep you happy...that seems far better then Raven adding an option in a patch. If it's just a mod, public servers won't use it since it's just a mod and not an official option. If it's a mod, then the small group of people with highly developed skill can use it on their servers, since they have their own servers anyway.

FurionStormrage
09-28-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Gabrobot

Anyway, I would rather someone made a mod for you to keep you happy...that seems far better then Raven adding an option in a patch. If it's just a mod, public servers won't use it since it's just a mod and not an official option. If it's a mod, then the small group of people with highly developed skill can use it on their servers, since they have their own servers anyway.

Agreed. I'd rather see this group of people develop a mod (Mr. Hex, have you started one yet? According to you it's all the same code. :rolleyes: ) for JA to add their specific options back in.

[div3rse.jello]
09-28-2003, 05:10 PM
heh

i think you know why he hasnt started yet

dont ask stupid questions

Gabrobot
09-28-2003, 05:12 PM
Oh, and here's something Emon posted about the changes in JA's engine:

Originally posted by Emon
On the contrary.



- Higher resolution textures

- Higher resolution and much more detailed lightmaps

- Per-pixel dynamic lighting

- Per-pixel dynamic glow, even beats out Splinter Cell

- Per-pixel distortion effects, seen on Push/Pull

- Much larger worlds with far more detail, they look far less plain and cartoony

- Lighting doesn't look like **** in MP

- Various artistic details such as footprints and other design touches



They could have done some insane lighting effects with Q3Map2, but then you'd be compromising performance on middle to low end systems, which is not an option for many developers. I myself and rather impressed with what Raven has done to the engine, most notable are the per-pixel shaders and lighting. OpenGL extensions aren't standardized for that kind of advanced stuff, and I congradulate Raven for pulling it off, making it look good and run fast.

g//plaZma
09-28-2003, 05:30 PM
Ok let me state it clearer for you since you're still going on about graphics and the updated engine and the size of maps and how JA can handle big maps that JO couldn't.

We're talking about gameplay dynamics

Gabrobot
09-28-2003, 05:40 PM
So you're saying that huge out door levels have the same gameplay dynamics as small cramped inside levels? Siege's gameplay dynamics are not possible in JKII because JKII can't handle levels which are large enough.

[div3rse.jello]
09-28-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by =X=Master HeX
From a programmers point of view I just want to give people a bit of closure on what I've observed. JA contains LOTS of the same code from JO. Don't tell me it doesn't when I know for a fact that there were traces of just about all the "new" aspects in the original JO.

Most the default models contained the EXACT replica of saber-staff butterfly and cartwheels.

Ghoul2 locational dmg was already in the works in the JO code.

FurionStormrage
09-28-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
Originally posted by =X=Master HeX
From a programmers point of view I just want to give people a bit of closure on what I've observed. JA contains LOTS of the same code from JO. Don't tell me it doesn't when I know for a fact that there were traces of just about all the "new" aspects in the original JO.

Most the default models contained the EXACT replica of saber-staff butterfly and cartwheels.

Ghoul2 locational dmg was already in the works in the JO code.


Traces != same

And the gameplay is certainly different. If it wasn't why are a bunch of people whining about gameplay issues. :rolleyes:

FK | unnamed
09-28-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
Are you able to defend yourself against lightning with the saber? at least in SP you can.

Nope.


Hey wheiner dog whoever uses that strategy is a fag noob.

Correction, the smart player uses it and he is called "the winner".



You know that the other can chase-pull you right?

The initial cost to activate absorb + your pulling = 0 force pool much faster, a position no one wants to be in during a duel. Doing that is basically handing him the win.

Try another idea.



also, when using drain you have no defense for a second, i can saber throw you to the head and youll be dead in that second.




Not sure what game you are playing, but saber throw does 30 damage, and if it's thrown *during a drain hit it's going to do even *less because I'm healing as I'm taking damage.

Try another idea.



Also i can use speed to chase and smash you, oviusly if i fail you have the advantage because i would be out of force.

speed costs 50 force, and what are you going to "smash" me with? The only high damage move is a Kata, and it will *not kill in one hit, it takes the other 50 out of your force pool and leaves you with 0 force.

Using speed in a duel is the most moronic thing anyone could ever hope do to.

It’s not only a waste of force but it puts you in a position where you can be drained down to 0 force with 1/2 the effort and beaten even faster.

Try another idea.



I wouldnt bother to turn absorb if you light me with level 2. I would just strafe jump toward you and cut your head off.



With what?

Last time I checked it took about 3 swings to the face in heavy stance to kill.

You have not played any sabers other than Outcast 1.02, trust me; they are about 3 times weaker than what you remember.

Not to mention, what makes you think I can't strafe jump and keep my distance until absorb wears off?

I've never had a problem doing it before, nor do I now.

Try another idea.


Are you aware that i can run away from you too? I can hide heal and so on.



What makes you think I can't stay on you and drain you and keep your pool at 0?

Most duel maps have no where to hide and no serious "long strafe run paths" like duel_temple did in Outcast.

Not to mention, level 2 drain reaches across almost the entire map, I don't even need to chase you.

Try another idea.



But i guess overall you are right, dark side is more powerfull than light side.


:)

Lights could actually rape a dark in JO, but it revolved around a strategy using mind trick to stop draining (I know that idea sounds silly, but trust me it works if you know how to use it right) in conjunction with kicks and ranged pull throws.

The guy who posted a few posts up (fk | screed) was a master at it.

It's something I started using as a joke but he actually mastered it and became damn near unbeatable with.

However, no kicks make it impossible to do in Academy so lights are left with literally nothing now.

[div3rse.jello]
09-28-2003, 06:52 PM
uh which post are u talkin about

i dont get what youre saying anyway

FurionStormrage
09-28-2003, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
uh which post are u talkin about

i dont get what youre saying anyway

Edited my post so you could see what I was talking about. I forgot that quoting a post that has a quote within it ignores the internal quote. Sorry about that!

Gabrobot
09-28-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]
Originally posted by =X=Master HeX
From a programmers point of view I just want to give people a bit of closure on what I've observed. JA contains LOTS of the same code from JO. Don't tell me it doesn't when I know for a fact that there were traces of just about all the "new" aspects in the original JO.

Most the default models contained the EXACT replica of saber-staff butterfly and cartwheels.

Ghoul2 locational dmg was already in the works in the JO code.



It may be true that the very basic gameplay code hasn't changed much, but neither has the basic elevator code changed much since the first Quake. Why should Raven remake the saber system that was used in JKII? Instead what they have done is tweak it and add more moves for the stances, that are in JKII, and add two new saber styles with new animations (as I've pointed out before, JA has twice as many animations as JKII). Why is this bad? I thought the only thing you thought was wrong, was the fact that you can't use the JKII kick...besides, I heard you can do the JKII kick in JA anyway by doing wall flips on people (just like JKII, except the way you do wall flips is different)...

[Edit: I guess you can't do JKII kicks MP at all, but you can do them in SP when you have a cheat on...I guess Raven really didn't want kicks in MP at all...]

AxVegetA
09-28-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
Lights could actually rape a dark in JO, but it revolved around a strategy using mind trick to stop draining (I know that idea sounds silly, but trust me it works if you know how to use it right) in conjunction with kicks and ranged pull throws.


For now ill believe you.
Ill try that when i get the ****ing game, TOMORROW.

But i am 80% sure you are not absolutely right.