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Emon
10-03-2003, 12:54 AM
I think we need some feedback. I know some of Raven's employees read these forums, and I know some of them see the real suggestions and bug/balance lists, and ignore the trash around here... I'm sure they've discussed at least somewhat the problems the players have been talking about, and their possible fixes. I think what we need is for Raven to tell us their proposed plan to fix the problems (when that time comes), and get the community's input on that. Of course, they're not going to go with everything some random guy suggest, but it would be my hope that someone's comments or thoughts would get Raven thinking of their own solutions.

What do you guys think? I think this could help a great deal. I hope Raven can do something like this, but they might have to keep their mouthes shut because of legal issues, or maybe I'm just speaking to deaf ears.

TK-8252
10-03-2003, 12:59 AM
I agree that people in Raven Software who visit forums need to give the fans some feedback. We're the ones buying, they could at least listen to what we request. But they must have been listening somewhat since they added a proper "bow" animation in multiplayer duel modes. :roleyess: Although you'll still have to kneel and look at the ground in FFA duels. :mad: Plus they added the meditate animation after seeing how popular it was in the admin/emote mods. Although I see no use of it in duel mode.

mariners2001
10-03-2003, 03:07 AM
I definitely agree Emon. If they have to make a patch, they might as well work with the customers to get it right.....I mean, it's only logical after the chaos with JO.

Emon
10-03-2003, 03:13 AM
I think LEC pulled the plug on Raven's patches because they wanted them to work on JA. Mike mentioned a "secret project" several times after JO was released, I think JA had been decided since the JO story was written (how Tavion escaped). I think JO could have been patched to perfection if the plug wasn't pulled.

However, patching and getting user input isn't a very fast or efficient way, in my eyes. I think it's easier to do it this way. Like I said, sure, don't do what some guy says, but just consider what the people are saying, and then go find the answer your self.

JoeyJoJoShabado
10-03-2003, 05:00 AM
I agree, however it seems from what i've seen anybody the slightest sort of constructive criticism or ideas how to make the game better seems to get shot down on this board quite frequently and told to 'adapt to the game' :rolleyes: . But yeah, I agree :)

razorace
10-03-2003, 05:35 AM
I disagree.

First off, players aren't game designers. They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games. Plus, many gamers have a pretty limited view of indivdual games. Often they will give a bais to "their" favorite race/stance/gamemode/etc and make their statements accordingly. "OMG! The Terrans/blue stance/etc SUCKS!"

Secondly, it would put Raven in a tuff situation. People would get very upset if they ever had to pull a proposed patch feature for whatever reason.

Gabrobot
10-03-2003, 05:37 AM
Yes, Emon, I agree there should be more communication between Raven and the community and less of certain parts of the community demanding certain changes to the gameplay in a patch that should be made immediately, or else.

Gabrobot
10-03-2003, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by razorace
I disagree.

First off, players aren't game designers. They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games. Plus, many gamers have a pretty limited view of indivdual games. Often they will give a bais to "their" favorite race/stance/gamemode/etc and make their statements accordingly. "OMG! The Terrans/blue stance/etc SUCKS!"

Secondly, it would put Raven in a tuff situation. People would get very upset if they ever had to pull a proposed patch feature for whatever reason.

I think Emon is talking more about more communication so that people can let Raven know of certain things, and Raven can then decide whther to do anything about it, and if they do decide to do something, what they will do.

As he said:
Originally posted by EmonLike I said, sure, don't do what some guy says, but just consider what the people are saying, and then go find the answer your self.

FK | unnamed
10-03-2003, 05:47 AM
Major reason why this game will never get the support from devs that other games do:

Licensed property, more specific, LEC/Star wars material.


I do, unlike a lot of people, understand that even if they wanted to make a lot of changes, they don't have the direct authority to make it happen.

And while I do think they have made one of the most innovative games in recent years, hell ever for that matter (Jedi Outcast), I think it was blatantly obvious that this game (Academy) was never really play tested.

When things like:

Random instant kill lighting
Random instant kill kicks
Random saber returns doing instant kills (after it gets lost)

Are found by players in a matter of *hours after being released, and things like:

The rocket homing bug from JO we have told them about hundreds of times

The invisible player models that were accidentally allowed in JO MP, yet again being over looked and being available in JA

I'm simply not going to buy any serious depth was put into play testing this final build.



I also think Raven has done a horrible job listening to their player base when bugs are found.

The JO/JA rocket bug, the JO 100+ grip glitch, take your pick.

They were constantly informed of these and many others but never did a thing about them.

When the patches did come, or in this case a new game, these bugs were still present.

Why?

It's not like they can say no one ever told them...

So just please release the tools the mod makers need and yet again, another retail game will be fixed by the people who play it (anyone else notice this trend becoming quite common in retail games?)

FK | unnamed
10-03-2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by razorace
I disagree.

First off, players aren't game designers. They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games. Plus, many gamers have a pretty limited view of indivdual games. Often they will give a bais to "their" favorite race/stance/gamemode/etc and make their statements accordingly. "OMG! The Terrans/blue stance/etc SUCKS!"


But they are customers, don't forget that.

You can preach all you want about "they are the artist, they know the trade better", but if a company does give the customer (players) what they want, you get returning customers.


And this:

"They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games.”

Is just plain ignorant or very self absorbed.


Why do you think so many Big Hollywood blockbusters flop?

The majority of the main stream movie industry is totally out of touch with the people buying tickets.

You see this in almost all commercial entertainment these days, music and more recently, gaming.

You look at some of the most successful gaming companies in this industry, id software, Valve, Blizzard, and you are going to find some of the best customer support around.

Long after sales die for their releases, they patch and fix problems and are very involved in the "grass roots" aspect of community involvement.

And hell look at Valve.
Did they say "They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games.”?

Nope.

And they got the worlds most successful online multi player game associated with their product (and later acquired the rights and profits for retail versions) for being open minded and letting the community show them what they wanted out of a game.

Counter-Strike anyone?

Gabrobot
10-03-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
Major reason why this game will never get the support from devs that other games do:

Licensed property, more specific, LEC/Star wars material.


I do, unlike a lot of people, understand that even if they wanted to make a lot of changes, they don't have the direct authority to make it happen.

And while I do think they have made one of the most innovative games in recent years, hell ever for that matter (Jedi Outcast), I think it was blatantly obvious that this game (Academy) was never really play tested.

When things like:

Random instant kill lighting
Random instant kill kicks
Random saber returns doing instant kills (after it gets lost)

Are found by players in a matter of *hours after being released, and things like:

The rocket homing bug from JO we have told them about hundreds of times

The invisible player models that were accidentally allowed in JO MP, yet again being over looked and being available in JA

I'm simply not going to buy any serious depth was put into play testing this final build.



I also think Raven has done a horrible job listening to their player base when bugs are found.

The JO/JA rocket bug, the JO 100+ grip glitch, take your pick.

They were constantly informed of these and many others but never did a thing about them.

When the patches did come, or in this case a new game, these bugs were still present.

Why?

It's not like they can say no one ever told them...

So just please release the tools the mod makers need and yet again, another retail game will be fixed by the people who play it (anyone else notice this trend becoming quite common in retail games?)

Eh, from what I can tell, this thread is meant to help establish a connection with Raven so what you have mentioned does not happen again. Try offering some creative criticism, instead of your whining and complaining...if you want Raven to listen you have to try and talk with them not demand that they make certain changes because the "we, players are the ones who know what we're doing and what is best for your game and you, the developer, of your game, do not."

razorace
10-03-2003, 06:28 AM
Well, you're right. Developers do need to be "in touch" with their customers.

I was simply pointing out that general gaming population really doesn't think all their gameplay suggestions through before demanding them.

The general gaming community didn't come up with CounterStrike or any of the other popular mods; Selecti individuals did. These individuals probably did took input from the public, made some judgement calls and made some sweet mods.

Making Raven consult with the community before releasing patches would hamper their ability to make judgement calls that make the game a fun experience for everyone.

It's pretty obvious from JKA, the JK2 patches, the occasional Raven forum posts, and my email communications with Raven that they do listen to the community. Just because they don't fix every preceived "bug" doesn't mean that they are ignoring everyone.

That being said, I do agree that Raven should be more open with the community. This crap about not even being able to confirm/deny that a patch is going to be released or when the SDK can be expected SUCKS.

FK | unnamed
10-03-2003, 06:37 AM
Gabrobot,

Can you el-ready English?


I cut them a hell of a lot more slack than most of you because I know they can't comment due to legal reasons, let alone do anything about it if they wanted to.

And I also give them credit for their creative and damn near brilliant concepts they came up with in JO (JA is the same basic formula so no reason to comment on that).


But the fact remains they have been made aware of several bugs in the past that never were fixed and when a patch did come, it was a rushed 1/2 ass quick fix for just a few things.

When they are made aware of serious legitimate bugs over and over but just rush a patch out the door that fixes 1-2 things I'm not going to give them a gold star.

Nor am I going to do a little dance to show my gratitude when there are a ton of bugs that some 14 year old kid in the middle of BFE Ohio (you figure out the BFE part) finds after only playing the final retail version for an hour, yet I'm supposed to believe there was months and months of extensive product testing done?


This is basic, bare bones *quality control we are talking about.

Even the damn fruit of the loom underwear people have a guy inspecting every pair of drawers going by on the line and putting a sticker of approval on them *only after they have been checked for defects.


I know bugs are going to be found but if you are making the same mistakes you did a year ago (invisible models in MP), not to mention having bugs present that people found in only a matter of minutes of game play (the lightning), just shoot straight with people and say "Yeah we almost did not make the dead line so we rushed it with out extensive testing and we know there are a lot of bugs, so we promise to continually support our player base and correct these problems as they are found".

But then again if you have enough consumers who are willing to just be spoon fed any crap put in their face and never demand a higher quality of product why bother?




:rolleyes:

Imperial_thug
10-03-2003, 06:40 AM
It's impossible for Raven to be "in touch", there's too many conflicting opinions about how the game "should be". It's impossible for them to make everyone happy. I think the best thing they could do is just make a game and NOT listen to the fans. They could just make it how they want it to be and then we all could learn to live with it, I think that would help things tremendously.

FK | unnamed
10-03-2003, 06:42 AM
heh, read my last sentence then read his post..

you can't say I'm out of touch with the way a lot of people think around here...

Gabrobot
10-03-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
[snip]

One thing I find kind of ironic, is that this is a forum about a Star Wars game, and that the original Star Wars movies weren't great because George Lucas had the people who would watch his movie, tell him what to put in it...he made what he imagined, and there were (and are) many people who like his vision, although there are people who don't.

Now, I'm not saying that means that Raven should ignore people’s comments, but Raven should make their own decisions and stick with their vision.

I am not really very familiar with the bugs which you mentioned (I've never encountered them), but they sound like the result of lag, and things I don't really see how they could easily change (the invisible player thing has to do with shader properties...it would screw up the shaders for the level if they disabled transparency stuff).

STTCT
10-03-2003, 07:18 AM
I personally feel that game makers should fix their games before they go out and make money on the next one. I have faith in Raven, I think that they are working on the bugs right now and maybe they aren't reading our posts...but they probably get hundreds of email complaints. I'm sure they are doing their best. The game has only been out how many days?

razorace
10-03-2003, 09:06 AM
I ask Rich Whitehouse about a patch. He said "no comment." This was after I asked if he could confirm, deny, or not talk about a upcoming patch.

As such, I beleive they are simply waiting for clearance to get some patches out. Damn legal crap.

WadeV1589
10-03-2003, 09:15 AM
They should come here and read the bug threads and fix them, after all if everyone complains about missing models in MP or bad performance with their top-of-the-range graphics card then they are bugs, code problems.

They should NOT come here and read the "we want" threads and modify the game accordingly, all those threads about "we want kick back" have to be ignored. Why? Because they removed it and if they add it now they're doing it because some people asked for it - some people will get pi**ed off if it comes back again. If they had added kick to start and a lot of people requested it removed they couldn't have.

I don't know how many of you understand this but Raven can fix bugs, not fix personal bugs. Tell them the game crashes and they should fix it, tell them 85% of the community want X in the game and they should not - and probably cannot. Once you start listening to a group of people, others feel betrayed and ignored so the second they listen to any "we wants" they'll have some very angry customers.

StormHammer
10-03-2003, 05:33 PM
Well, Lucasarts will have to give the go-ahead for at least one patch, because at the moment there are some people who simply cannot even play the game. Either it crashes on load, or it crashes half-way through. Hopefully someone from Raven or Lucasarts has been reading the Bug thread stuck at the top of this forum. If not - then we'll have to look at condensing all the information in there into an error report, and send them that.

Games with bugs should be fixed.

When it comes to player preferences about X or Y, then that should be taken with a pinch of salt. People should learn to use the game mechanics in the game, and actually play the game for a couple of months. If, after that time, a serious flaw in the gameplay mechanics is still apparent, only then should it be fixed in a further patch.

Patch number one should fix the game so that people can actually play MP and SP smoothly and without glitches.

Kurgan
10-03-2003, 06:35 PM
I think Raven has learned their lesson with the JK2 patches. They know the difference between bug fixes and gameplay changes that will anger more people than they satisfy.

And they understand that big as our community seems, we are only a fraction of the overall JA community.

Of course, they are also beholden to do whatever LA compels them to do with the game... in the end.


I agree though, hearing their opinions and explanations as to why they did or will do such and such a thing is always nice to hear, just for piece of mind.

As for me, I never denied there were bugs in the game (I've even sent some in), I just continued to resist the "jump ship now the sky is falling" people demanding "game balance fixes" and requests for changes of that sort.

Prime
10-03-2003, 06:53 PM
Took the words right out of my mouth. Really, bugs and crashing issues should be the priority. Also, not only does Lucasarts decide if there is a patch or not, they also decide what sorts of things go into the patch. This may mean that there is a patch, but it only fixes bugs, and does not alter gameplay.

Regardless of whether there is or isn't a patch, I'll adapt regardless. I did in JO and I will in JA :)

Master William
10-03-2003, 07:12 PM
''The chaos with JO''

What chaos? JO was excellent.

Manquesa
10-03-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Well, Lucasarts will have to give the go-ahead for at least one patch, because at the moment there are some people who simply cannot even play the game. Either it crashes on load, or it crashes half-way through. Hopefully someone from Raven or Lucasarts has been reading the Bug thread stuck at the top of this forum. If not - then we'll have to look at condensing all the information in there into an error report, and send them that.

Games with bugs should be fixed.

When it comes to player preferences about X or Y, then that should be taken with a pinch of salt. People should learn to use the game mechanics in the game, and actually play the game for a couple of months. If, after that time, a serious flaw in the gameplay mechanics is still apparent, only then should it be fixed in a further patch.

Patch number one should fix the game so that people can actually play MP and SP smoothly and without glitches.


http://www.ravenforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2531

A patch will be made according to this thread on Raven Forums. Don't know what will be in the patch other than a fix to the server list problem in MP, but just wait and it will come.

Kurgan
10-03-2003, 07:53 PM
''The chaos with JO''

What chaos? JO was excellent.

I was referring to the floods of complaints and incessant whining on LucasForums (I can't say about the rest of the online community because I was here through 99% of it) for a patch, then when the patch came, the flood of whines and complaints about what the patch did wrong or didn't fix, repeated ad naseum with each patch and continued afterward, eventually subsiding only when it was clear no more patches were coming.

We're seeing the same thing with JA, although it seems the whining is less abundant this time around.

As to some of the folks that are not in touch with what it takes to design a game... just look at some of the "purist fanboy" comments made about how this or that is not "Jedi-like behavior" etc. The people who, by their own logic, would never have picked up the Dark Forces series in the first place because it wasn't "just like the movies."

A lot of these folks are more concerned with "what makes me look cool in front of my friends" rather than what makes a fun and balanced game for the majority of buyers. That is why Raven (and rightfully so) takes those people's suggestions with a heavy dose of salt.


Notice how in that thread you posted from raven's forums they start off all well and good talking about bugs and a patch, then people immediately jump in with the "OMG THE DOUBLESABER IS OVERPOWER3D FIX IT NOW!" BS. ; p

Emon
10-03-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Well, you're right. Developers do need to be "in touch" with their customers.
That is all I am saying.

Originally posted by Imperial_thug
It's impossible for Raven to be "in touch", there's too many conflicting opinions about how the game "should be". It's impossible for them to make everyone happy. I think the best thing they could do is just make a game and NOT listen to the fans. They could just make it how they want it to be and then we all could learn to live with it, I think that would help things tremendously.
It would be nice if you read what I wrote, and not some random data pulled from the back of your brain.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I think Raven has learned their lesson with the JK2 patches. They know the difference between bug fixes and gameplay changes that will anger more people than they satisfy.
I hope so.

FK, from what I got from your post, it sounded like you thought Raven isn't fixing the bugs because of legal issues? If so, there's no way that's possible. They can't take suggestions from people like on story and stuff, because of intellectual property issues, but I don't think a suggestion to fix a bug or change the damage of an explosion really counts. Razorace submitted a fix to one of Raven's programmers for an SP walking animation error, and I believe he said they were going to fix it, or try at least (I can't remember the words of the e-mail reply). So I'm definately thinking that is not the case...

The grip and rocket bugs you talked about are still there, because I don't think they knew. There's very clearly some stuff in JA designed to solve some of the issues JO had, so there's no reason they wouldn't remove the rocket bug. I think Raven listens for a little while, then eventually it pretty much stops, either that or no one remembers anything they read. Either way, it's got to change.

Kurgan
10-03-2003, 08:07 PM
I assume Emon you mean the rocket bug in JK2 is still there.

In JA I can't get it to work the same way, so it looks like its no longer there...

Not sure what you mean about the "grip bug."

The "random 100% damage lightning" bug that unnamed mentioned I have never seen. I've seen people with no shields die in a few seconds on level 3 lightning, but that's how its supposed to work. Lag makes it look like its instant sometimes, but it's not.

The fact is that most of the time I use lightning on people and even without absorb they survive. A "random kill bug" thing is very hard to prove, especially with lag as it is on the internet.

Anyway, I got the impression that Raven wished to continue patching JK2 to fix the last few bugs, but LA didn't let them. The same may happen with JA, since LA has the marketing arm in control of the SW liscense for games gets to dictate policy to Raven, the third party developer working with the liscensed material. Heck, Raven doesn't even control the engine they are using to make the game. I think they're really trying, they just have a limited scope of influence when it comes to the big picture. So hopefully the powers that be will let them make the decisions they want to make about the game.

Emon
10-03-2003, 10:27 PM
I guess. I remember hearing about bugs for JO that never existed, often because people just suck and look to bugs to make them think they are actually good. But hey, I haven't played MP much, so I don't really know.

What do you mean about not controlling the engine they used to make the game?

Rad Blackrose
10-03-2003, 11:43 PM
"random 100% damage lightning"

The bug does exist. I was able to reproduce it many a time on the FU clan server. They had to disable lightning because of me. :cool:

Nice job on side stepping the instant death saber staff kick statement as well.

Most of the bugs people never hear about is mostly due to the fact that most of the JO players stuck to their own little world, rejecting other servers due to the fear that their own playstyle would get mauled by a better player. This holds especially true in the NF to FF SO crossover aspect. You don't see effective moves such as PTK or GK used in NF (duh). Nor do you see bugs such as the 100+ damage Grip or the rocket bug. Why? Because most servers rejected force and rejected guns outright all in the sense of "honor."

That's why Gun CTF and FF/SO were, and still are the only ones that have a legitimate gripe in the Force and Guns field, because they took apart JKII and saw how it ticked. That's how we got things such as Grip Kick, instant Grip deaths, and the Drain game in the first place. All of a sudden, people who have been stuck to one gametype or one style of play (ie the NF Duel/FFA community), are commenting on other modes when they have NO IDEA how it works.

I'm all for bugs first, then gameplay later, but unfortunately there is that grey area which contains both concepts of gameplay and bugs. This is where the lightning and kick bugs come in. Same with the instant Grip and the rocket homing bug.

EDIT: Another thing I want to touch briefly on is the Jedi Academy MP netcode. It is just downright attrocious. On servers that should be able to run a 16 man JO FFA, it can barely handle a 12 man JA Siege. I'd flag this as a showstopper.

razorace
10-04-2003, 12:10 AM
I think that's partially due to people considering anything that prevents them from winning to be a bug or a flaw in the gameplay. :D

Plus, I'm pretty sure that a LOT of the perceived problems are flat out due to crappy pings. Unfortunately, a melee combat game like JKA requires a very good ping to get the sort of server<->client accuracy that you need. In addition, due to the Raven did some stuff (animations) your sabers animations are ALWAYS going to be off based on your ping. Now, it's possible that Raven fixed this from JK2 but I'd need the source code to know for sure.

Admittedly, there are some bugs/issues that people have been finding legitly. But that's what patches are for. :)

Rad Blackrose
10-04-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by razorace
In addition, due to the Raven did some stuff (animations) your sabers animations are ALWAYS going to be off based on your ping. Now, it's possible that Raven fixed this from JK2 but I'd need the source code to know for sure.

*puke*

First of all, the saber animations remained untouched minus the addition of the katas, the roll stab, and the pull stab (I've yet to see the pull stab, so I'm guessing it's not in MP, thus eliminating it).

I'd have to say it maybe has to do with more of the new acrobatics (including the cartwheel... Yes, I consider it an acrobatic and not a saber move because your saber does nothing during the move). However, that hypothesis alone won't cut it because of the crappy pings and the inability to adjust them client side.

lotr-sam0711
10-04-2003, 12:54 AM
That would be nice, But they are too busy makeing games.......maybe, maybe not???

Gabrobot
10-04-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
EDIT: Another thing I want to touch briefly on is the Jedi Academy MP netcode. It is just downright attrocious. On servers that should be able to run a 16 man JO FFA, it can barely handle a 12 man JA Siege. I'd flag this as a showstopper.

Lol, this is hilarious! Atrocious net code is when it takes 5 minutes after you pressed the fire button for a shot to be fired. (This happened in the Will Rock demo...very very slow) Siege has many more things to handle than a simple FFA game...it's got the ICARUS II scripting, the vehicles, the objectives, the keeping track of all the other stuff in the game (times and stuff). Most of all it's probably the scripting... (you notice that in games like BF1942, there aren't even doors that you can open and close, let alone buttons that do stuff like move elevators ect.)

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
*puke*

First of all, the saber animations remained untouched minus the addition of the katas, the roll stab, and the pull stab (I've yet to see the pull stab, so I'm guessing it's not in MP, thus eliminating it).

I'd have to say it maybe has to do with more of the new acrobatics (including the cartwheel... Yes, I consider it an acrobatic and not a saber move because your saber does nothing during the move). However, that hypothesis alone won't cut it because of the crappy pings and the inability to adjust them client side.

Oh come on...he's talking about the technical animation code stuff, not the moves! :rolleyes:

Rad Blackrose
10-04-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Lol, this is hilarious! Atrocious net code is when it takes 5 minutes after you pressed the fire button for a shot to be fired. (This happened in the Will Rock demo...very very slow) Siege has many more things to handle than a simple FFA game...it's got the ICARUS II scripting, the vehicles, the objectives, the keeping track of all the other stuff in the game (times and stuff). Most of all it's probably the scripting... (you notice that in games like BF1942, there aren't even doors that you can open and close, let alone buttons that do stuff like move elevators ect.)

Funny, I only cited one example. I also happened to be on an FFA server and the same thing happened (granted the server stated it could hold 24, but anything over 11 and lag spikes started hitting).

I'm glad you find it hilarious, you ****ing jackass.

EDIT: Oh, I failed to mention one brief detail. I was getting into technicalities, because even the old single saber moves are suffering from hit detection caused partially by lag.

Gabrobot
10-04-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Funny, I only cited one example. I also happened to be on an FFA server and the same thing happened (granted the server stated it could hold 24, but anything over 11 and lag spikes started hitting).

I'm glad you find it hilarious, you ****ing jackass.

EDIT: Oh, I failed to mention one brief detail. I was getting into technicalities, because even the old single saber moves are suffering from hit detection caused partially by lag.

Well, it could just be that you were on a server with a bad ping?

It could be there are some technical issues with the net code as I saw something about Raven saying they had fixed some net code stuff in the patch they're making... (although I think that was more about the servers not showing up thing...)

I, as a 56ker, have actually had better speed in JA games than in JKII...not really great, but there's less "connection interrupted" then there used to be...

razorace
10-04-2003, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
*puke*

First of all, the saber animations remained untouched minus the addition of the katas, the roll stab, and the pull stab (I've yet to see the pull stab, so I'm guessing it's not in MP, thus eliminating it).

I'd have to say it maybe has to do with more of the new acrobatics (including the cartwheel... Yes, I consider it an acrobatic and not a saber move because your saber does nothing during the move). However, that hypothesis alone won't cut it because of the crappy pings and the inability to adjust them client side.

I don't think you understood. I've studied the JK2 animation system. Hell, I even rewrote the whole thing.

The JK2 animation system was fundimently flawed because it didn't match up the start times for the animations on the servers vs the clients. Instead, it only gave the order to start an animation. This directly results in the animations being off by your lag. This is probably what accounts for a LOT of the hit detection problems. The rest is probably due to the way there's no system to prevent the sabers from passing thru bodies/other sabers/etc.

Rad Blackrose
10-04-2003, 03:41 AM
The JK2 animation system was fundimently flawed because it didn't match up the start times for the animations on the servers vs the clients. Instead, it only gave the order to start an animation. This directly results in the animations being off by your lag. This is probably what accounts for a LOT of the hit detection problems. The rest is probably due to the way there's no system to prevent the sabers from passing thru bodies/other sabers/etc.

Why does this sound vaguely like the change valve pulled with Half-Life/TFC early on, where you "shot," but it would register later.

I've already have experienced the lag factor with the saber from Jah's server back in JO (150-200 ping vs low 40s-50s does not bode well in an NF match). Unlike guns where you are able to guess where the person is going and shoot there and connect, you swing, but in reality you swung either before or after you really had a chance to make contact. But now it seems much more obvious in JA, partially due to the changes.

EDIT: Silly spelling mistakes

razorace
10-04-2003, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Why does this sound vaguely like the change valve pulled with Half-Life/TFC early on, where you "shot," but it would register later.

Well, I imagine this is the opposite technical problem of that. The animations and hit detection are controlled by the server. This means that to make your saber to hit things as they appear on the clients, it must be in sync with the server. Otherwise, your saber will cleave thru stuff without any damage (the current problem).

The problem is that Raven didn't make the animations start at the same times. The server starts the animation and then sends the order to the clients to do the same. Since the client doesn't account for lag when it starts the animation, the animation is ALWAYS off by the amount of lag your experencing.

For JK2 I rewrote the animation system to prevent the issue. However, I ran into an engine limitation that prevented me from implimenting it. On the plus side, this issue has been resolved in JKA....or at least that's what I've been told.

Rad Blackrose
10-04-2003, 04:46 AM
Will you be throwing it into some rendition of MotF (or whatever you are calling the project now) if the current animation system is failing? Because to me right now it looks like it has not changed.

Then again, we still need the editing tools... ;)

FK | unnamed
10-04-2003, 05:28 AM
Well as far as bugs and competition players go, we usually are the first to find them and want them out of the game more than anyone because by our very nature, we will use any means we can to win.


The grip bug was simple.


Kurgan grips unnamed.

unnamed just sits there.

Kurgan's grip finishes.

unnamed shoots up in the air like a rocket and Kurgan dies instantly, even though he had 100/25.

WTF?

Easy.

There was a bug in JO that let a gripped person "build up kick power" by tapping jump fast as hell (think saber lock click-click).

The faster they guy tapped, the more damage he is going to do once free.

Once the grip broke, as long as he held the forward key down the game engine would read those "click-clicks" as a kick, *but it would not limit the damage, nor would the player do the kick animation.


The reason you would not do the kick animation was because you were still in the "after effect" of the grip.

You know the small delay period where you are grasping your throat and have limited control over your player.


But the game would falsely read those clicks as unlimited damage kicks and even though I'm still in the "choke" phase of the grip effect, any living object that touches me is going to die instantly.


Competition players hated that bug because people abused the hell out of it, but by and large, most casual players didn't even know it existed.


I'm not going to detail the rocket bug, due to it still working.

But most ladder/league gunners utterly hate that bug because a lot of the newbie’s would abuse it just like a wall hack (not to mention the homing rockets only costing ˝ the normal ammo rate for the guy using the bug).



And yes, the 1 hit kill staff kick bug and the instant kill lightning bug do/did (not sure after server patch came out) exist.

CK_EmPreSS
10-04-2003, 05:52 AM
In regards to this game, we're not fans. We're consumers. They should listen to some of the things people say here and hear all sides about certain issues.

I personally think they need to address some of the freak occurances like a one hit kill from a yellow swing, ghost saber misses that pass through people, etc. I don't think any of the moves should be altered at all. I just think some of the glitches need to be fixed asap.

razorace
10-04-2003, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Will you be throwing it into some rendition of MotF (or whatever you are calling the project now) if the current animation system is failing? Because to me right now it looks like it has not changed.

If the animation system needs changing (like I imagine it will), I'll be sure to include the animation system in OJP (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104564) so that people that don't want to play MotF can still use the updated system.

Rad Blackrose
10-04-2003, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by razorace
If the animation system needs changing (like I imagine it will), I'll be sure to include the animation system in OJP (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104564) so that people that don't want to play MotF can still use the updated system.

That sounds good. I'll be sure to start looking into it, since I devoted so much attention to ProMod in JKII.

Remind me to slap Dest upside his head for making JediMod open source. ;)

razorace
10-04-2003, 07:07 AM
That sounds good. I'll be sure to start looking into it, since I devoted so much attention to ProMod in JKII.

:) There's a MotF forums here under "hosted forums" if you're interested.

Remind me to slap Dest upside his head for making JediMod open source.

Well, I think the problem with JediMod wasn't that Dest made it open source. I think it was because he abandoned the project. That resulted in a TON of people trying to continue the project and succeeding/failing to various degrees.