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View Full Version : Grrrrrr.....Need better bot support


Vsync
10-07-2003, 01:02 AM
Ok, don't know if anyone complained about this, but JKA bot support is really bad. I mean the bots go back and forth and from side to side. I thought I was at a wedding watching the electric slide (yes bots too can be Soul Train dancers). They also jump around alot when you load a map without bot paths, like forest sanctuary. Then in other maps when you spawn vehicles or maps that have vehicles like kotor_flight_school they jump in and out of the vehicles without moving. This game has a lot of potential, but I feel sorry for those without broadband access because if they want to play offline the bot support is terrible. What they need is to use the same AI path nodes as the singleplayer enemies also they need a bot editor like unreal tournament where you could make your own bots (change name, skin, favorite weapon) and give them attributes like making them snipers or campers. Anyway hope I didn't complain too much, but its sad to see a game with potential start off bad.

Kurgan
10-07-2003, 02:27 AM
The fact that bots "jump around" in Siege or in addon maps is because the people who made those maps did not add in "bot routes" (waypoints) for the bots.

In the case of Siege, that is Raven's fault, they didn't have time to finish them up, and hopefully that will get added in a patch or something.

The third party maps are NOT Raven's fault, because they had nothing to do with those maps. The info on making bot routes has been out for JK2 for a long time, so it's up to the map maker to do that right.

I agree though, the bots on Vjun MP are terrible. They get stuck on corners or run around in small circles or run in place at the bottom near the foggy pit.

For an example of GOOD bot behavior, check out the JK2 map FFA_Bespin (Pcgamemods has a few conversions of it for JA). The bots on that map are excellent and the most challenging of any map I've seen in JK2 or JA.

If JA could be brought up to the FFA_Bespin JK2 standard, they would be most impressive and useful for training, rather than cannon fodder and laughs.

StormHammer
10-07-2003, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
For an example of GOOD bot behavior, check out the JK2 map FFA_Bespin (Pcgamemods has a few conversions of it for JA). The bots on that map are excellent and the most challenging of any map I've seen in JK2 or JA.

If JA could be brought up to the FFA_Bespin JK2 standard, they would be most impressive and useful for training, rather than cannon fodder and laughs.

I wholeheartedly agree.

And personally I don't think the FFA maps are quite as good as those in JO anyway. They seem a bit too 'loose', and whenever I'm on a server, you find most players in just a few places on those maps. The gameflow isn't as tight as in JO...which may be part of the reason for bots getting 'stuck' if no one happens to come by their position...

rut-wa jodar
10-07-2003, 07:38 AM
I know I have said this many times but when dueling against bots it`s extremely difficult to win a saberlock. It seems like they have changed the saberlock system when it comes to bots.

BTW ! CTF is terrible against bots they get stuck on lifts. At least in JO the AI was playable in multiple game modes.

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-07-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Vsync
... also they need a bot editor like unreal tournament where you could make your own bots (change name, skin, favorite weapon) and give them attributes like making them snipers or campers.

You can do all that now. There is a tutorial at the end of this thread: http://www.jediservers.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=23&posts=20

My servers have always had customized bots, and you can make them for yourself if you like playing against them on a home server. My bots are enhanced and are stronger at skill level 1 than the strongest stock bots are at skill level 5 (Jedi Master). They help even out the teams in CTF if there are few humans, and they usually end up scoring in the middle, not nearly as good as a good human, but as someone said recently, "that bot is better than a lot of newbs". At least their bot routes allow them to know what to do with the flag, unlike a lot of CTF newbies!

I also gave them fun names like The Dominatrix Reloaded (Tavion skin), Hugh Jass, Oliver Clothesoff, and Phillip Uranus. They talk trash and whine just like human players, and they fool a suprising number of people. Yesterday a human was yelling at two of his (bot) teammates to quit running around and go get their flag back!

Kurgan
10-07-2003, 08:32 AM
The other thing we need are bot "orders" (giving orders to bots on your team).

This was a feature present in Q3A. You could tell them to defend, cover you, camp a location, roam free, attack the enemy flag base, etc.

Is this in JKA somewhere and I'm just missing it?

JKA has so much potential.. if the bots were sorted out, it would be so much better.

Sounds interesting Amidala... ; )

|GG|Carl
10-07-2003, 03:41 PM
I gotta say that bots in JA are at least harder than the ones in JO.

But that was a bit off-topic...




I also made a bot... "|GG|Bot"... Everyone thinks he's a clan-mate of mine or something. He's very smart, and also talks a lot of trash. But people always calls him "n00b" and "lamer".
But he owns them all:D

Luc Solar
10-07-2003, 06:01 PM
Heh, yeah - I find it hilarious when people are whining about "noobs" and "lamers" when I have a few bots on my server that happen to do something dishonourable like use lightning etc. :D

There should be bots on every server. Might make people realize how stupid all those "rules" are.

Kurgan
10-07-2003, 07:02 PM
I disagree, I found the JK2 bots much harder... maybe if the bugs with the bots getting stuck or running in circles, or "a$$ fighting" (without bothering to ever use backstab) they would seem harder...

I play them on level 5, though I hear some people are having better luck with custom bots.

When that JK Runner program supports JA I'm going to get that and give it a whirl.... sounds cool.

nabroc
10-07-2003, 07:09 PM
The SP NPC's are ok, but the MP bots are hilarious and I'm not talking complex maps like siege, unsupported 3rd party maps or even something like FFA: Prior to going online the 1st time I thought it would be a good idea to get some more practice in and started a duel map with no force (rancor pit - now there's a simple map) and made the 'mistake' to select 3 bots on server startup, which placed me on the last spot in the line for the duels. The 1st fight was over fairly fast, but on the 2nd one the bots ran around the little map for 5min+ without so much as even crossing sabers once (they just ran around in circles)! Ok, might have been an anormality I thought, so I restarted the server - same thing and it won't get better by changing duel maps either :( - one of these days, if I get bored I'll check how long they can manage to run around without a single saber attack. Better to just select a single bot, but that ain't to much fun either, 'cause 3/4 of the time the player needs to chase the bot - it's probably best to just spawn NPC's while in SP mode.
The standard MP bots are laking the aggressiveness and target aquisation the SP ones have, waypoints are fine and all, but if they detect an opponent in the range of min 20-30m, the waypoint algorithm should be put aside and an engagement subroutine should take over, currently they have it backwards as following the wapoints somehow seems to be the prime directive. Think I'll check on those customised bots ...
On a side note, does anyone know how to spawn NPC's in a SP game with customized force settings (for the NPC's, not the player - I know how to change my own force abilities via cheats)? Are there any console commands or do the NPC/bot settings need to be edited in the files?

-=FB=-Jagged
10-08-2003, 01:15 AM
grrrrr... i'm NOT a newb, i'm NOT a newb....

nope. i'm a newb. how'd you get a customizable bot? that sounds really cool, and probably WOULD show people that honor rules are stupid.

if nothing else, it'd be fun to tinker with. :D

Rad Blackrose
10-08-2003, 01:24 AM
Nothing will ever beat Jake.

Nothing.

mariners2001
10-08-2003, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
The fact that bots "jump around" in Siege or in addon maps is because the people who made those maps did not add in "bot routes" (waypoints) for the bots.


Yeah but if you spawn a NPC in one of those maps they move perfectly fine...they at least don't jump around like a madman. My serious question is: Why do the bots have to move in a preset path???? I mean you should be able to mark elevators and weapons and things like that but come on....I mean would it be so tough to make them exactly like SP with free movement/thoughts and all??? This, IMO, is the most frustrating aspect of JKA and it is something I definitely expected them to improve on....but I was mistaken.

And I agree 100% on bot commands....I mean even Elite Force 1 had it....Raven did that as well? Is it that hard to do it with a more recent game???

GRrrrrrr

razorace
10-08-2003, 02:47 AM
Well, I remember seeing the team bot commands in the JK2 code but I don't know if they are enabled or not/

JediLurker
10-08-2003, 03:03 AM
In some of the bot files, like Luke's, there are acknowledgement messages for orders given. So my guess would be that there's a way...I just don't know what that way is.

Kurgan
10-08-2003, 10:24 AM
Yeah but if you spawn a NPC in one of those maps they move perfectly fine...they at least don't jump around like a madman. My serious question is: Why do the bots have to move in a preset path???? I mean you should be able to mark elevators and weapons and things like that but come on....I mean would it be so tough to make them exactly like SP with free movement/thoughts and all??? This, IMO, is the most frustrating aspect of JKA and it is something I definitely expected them to improve on....but I was mistaken.

Are we talking about the same SP AI that would stand stock still and take occasional shots at you then run away in a straight line when you pull their gun?

Or perhaps were you referring to the saber wielding opponents who spend half the fight tossing their sabers (and losing them), taunting, and jumping off cliffs?

Not to diss on Raven's skill with AI, but in all I don't think this is really an improvement!

And the thing is SP AI don't need to pick up items, they just are supposed to get in your way. Bots are supposed to simulate MP players, meaning they are supposed to run laps around the map collecting gear and getting frags.

That's what they're SUPPOSED to be doing anyway...

I do hope we get to the bottom of the bot orders mystery, I really think that would help immensley.

Darth Kaan
10-08-2003, 02:06 PM
The bots act as they do in JA simply because the bot routes are very poorly done and that's why they never steal a flag in CTF and why they get stuck in all the stock MP maps, not just in siege maps.

Darth T-bone is by far the best at bot routing maps and anyone who has ever played the maps he has routed know this. KOR Mines and Courtyard! being two great examples. He was concidering routing all the stock JA MP maps from scratch to fix the problems and offering the new .wnt files in a download pack.

However, since most players claim they hate fighting bots because they are so easy to beat, there was never any interest in improved bot routes in JO, so he decided not to release his improved .wnt files for JO and now JA because of that. However, If there was enough sincere interest, I am sure he would.

As far as giving bots orders.....yes it would be nice and it could probably become reality once the SC for MP is released if someone had enough interest and skill to code it. But due to the majority opinion bots are a waste of time, and the fact that there is no appreciation for vastly improved routing, I doubt that will ever happen.

JediLurker
10-08-2003, 02:25 PM
Well, there are those without broadband whose only recourse is to fight against bots. Also, servers use bots as filler at times. Then there are those like me that play against bots simply because we suck too. :D

Well...that and bots have no 'honourz!!'.

Anyway, I don't see where he might have gotten the idea that such an improvement wouldn't be in demand. People just generally don't talk about playing against bots for some reason or another, but there are plenty out there that do. Those that scream about how easy they are to beat are just more vocal than those that use them. I, at least, would like to have the improved routes.

Prime
10-08-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
There should be bots on every server. Might make people realize how stupid all those "rules" are. Now that is the best idea I've heard all day...

king yoda
10-08-2003, 02:40 PM
why not.

Darth Kaan
10-08-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by JediLurker
Well, there are those without broadband whose only recourse is to fight against bots. Also, servers use bots as filler at times. Then there are those like me that play against bots simply because we suck too. :D

Well...that and bots have no 'honourz!!'.

Anyway, I don't see where he might have gotten the idea that such an improvement wouldn't be in demand. People just generally don't talk about playing against bots for some reason or another, but there are plenty out there that do. Those that scream about how easy they are to beat are just more vocal than those that use them. I, at least, would like to have the improved routes.

Trust me, I understand, and there are several reasons other than connection that some people prefer to play against bots. I for one won't buy or play any FPS game that does not have them.

T-bone and I had a website just for bot resources for JKO but the downloads section was removed due to a total lack of interest. But we still continued improving them as we use the files for our own enjoyment.

Maybe an improved botroute pack for release is in order for the near future. I just wish there was a forum just for the discussion of improving bots, botroutes and bot support for models and skins so those of us that play against them could put our heads together and make some improvements in those areas.

The question is, even if that became a reality, would that forum actually be used or not? My experience has been that most are of the anti-bot mentality.

JediLurker
10-08-2003, 04:55 PM
Same here about not buying games without bot support.

I can't speak for others, but I'd be on that forum for sure. We're certainly not the only ones, so perhaps if it actually took shape and word got around, it would generate enough interest to make it worthwhile.

Luc Solar
10-08-2003, 06:01 PM
It's much easier to use bots when getting used to the game. I've played more against bots than people because I wanted to experiment with different guns etc.

But fighting bots gets boring. Today I tried the different saber styles against bots wanting to see which one was most effective in a cramped FFA-scenario (duel map).

I got 50 kills in 3 minutes with the staff. 4 and 5 minutes with 2 sabers and single saber. The best bot got about 10 kills. (saber damage x 2, no force, jedi master level bots)

Keeping in mind that I knew/know very little about saber combat, that result is pretty depressive. I wonder what would happen with lesser skilled bots.. :D

My point is that unless you're playing some instagib-mod, bots offer no challenge whatsoever. But on the bright side; they never whine and you don't have to tell them time and again to "stop bowing and attack me". ;)

JediLurker
10-08-2003, 06:07 PM
I agree that as it stands now, bots offer up very little challenge. With some improved routes, some tweaking of their personalities, and so on that might change, though. One can dream. :)

Darth Kaan
10-08-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by JediLurker
I agree that as it stands now, bots offer up very little challenge. With some improved routes, some tweaking of their personalities, and so on that might change, though. One can dream. :)

Actually there is a lot that can be tweaked to make them a lot tougher although they will never be the challenge human opponents are. Anyway, on a lighter note...

@JediLurker,

T-bone and I are working on getting the bot route files finished now. I will submit the new .wnt files as a "Botroute Improvement" pack as soon as they are all done.

That's a start...

JediLurker
10-08-2003, 08:20 PM
Awesome. Can't wait!

I'm not much of a modder myself, but if you two need an extra hand at some point with the bot tweaking or whatever, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help out.

Deastin
10-08-2003, 08:20 PM
I agree completely...JA bots suck a$$crusties. Even on the Raven maps. They just bunnyhop everywhere, and in CTF, they hardly even move at all, they just sit there.

Even on the duel maps at Jedi Master difficulty they suck. I waded through at least 15 of them before I got killed by Fyarr. Only a select few of them know what they're doing (Desann, Tavion, Fyarr). Even the lightsiders are hilariously annoying....they just run around with mind trick on for the longest time (some bot duels took at LEAST 10 minutes because of this).

*sigh* Guess I'll just have to wait for a patch.

Darth Kaan
10-08-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Deastin
I agree completely...JA bots suck a$$crusties. Even on the Raven maps. They just bunnyhop everywhere, and in CTF, they hardly even move at all, they just sit there.

Even on the duel maps at Jedi Master difficulty they suck. I waded through at least 15 of them before I got killed by Fyarr. Only a select few of them know what they're doing (Desann, Tavion, Fyarr). Even the lightsiders are hilariously annoying....they just run around with mind trick on for the longest time (some bot duels took at LEAST 10 minutes because of this).

*sigh* Guess I'll just have to wait for a patch.

Again, they suck because the routing was so poorly and I mean very poorly done. The botroute files (.wnt) and are in the assets0.pk3 if anyone wants to take a look at them. The first glaringly apparent sign that the routing quality was completly gaffed off can be found in the CTF3.wnt file

CTF 3 (Yavin Hilltops) has only one loop with a grand total of 134 waypoints....that is ludicrous and the main reason why they can't navigate and get hungup. Small and very basic Dual maps should have double that many. A CTF map the size and design of Yavin Hilltops should have at least 6 different loops and 700 waypoints.

One thing is for sure, quality routing alone will make a very big and positive difference.

Darth Kaan
10-08-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by JediLurker
Awesome. Can't wait!

I'm not much of a modder myself, but if you two need an extra hand at some point with the bot tweaking or whatever, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help out.

Actually you can help a lot! We need a good "tester" to play the maps with our new routes to make sure we don't overlook anything. An extra set of eyes and input can only help. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I will PM you with the details. :-)

razorace
10-08-2003, 09:12 PM
I'm interested. I'm on a dial up so I often play against bots. Which maps are you updating?

How do you update them? I've heard it's just a matter of doing some sort of command in the game, right?

Since this is something that would benefit everyone, would you be interested in submitting the map fixes to OJP (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104564)? We'd be able to establish a standard for JKA base map fixes.

Darth Kaan
10-09-2003, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by razorace
I'm interested. I'm on a dial up so I often play against bots. Which maps are you updating?

How do you update them? I've heard it's just a matter of doing some sort of command in the game, right?

Since this is something that would benefit everyone, would you be interested in submitting the map fixes to OJP (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104564)? We'd be able to establish a standard for JKA base map fixes.

To bot route a map you use console commands yes, but Each map has a corresponding .wnt file which is the actual bot routes for the map.

Once we have them routed properly the .wnt files in the assets0.pk3 will have to be replaced with the new ones.

We are doing the CTF maps first, then the FFA maps then dual then siege.

JKII.net never posted the pack we submitted for JKO and would never answer our emails as to why they did not. So we will submit them for sure to OJP when they are all finished and we are happy with them. We want the people that are interested to have a way to find them and get them easily.

Glad to see some interest in this for a change!

Deastin
10-09-2003, 12:25 AM
Maybe I'll just make my own map then!

*glares at the crappy map makes that only make maps for view, not bots*

Darth Kaan
10-09-2003, 12:35 AM
Okay update:

Coruscant Streets CTF is done and the bots navigate the entire level, steal the flags and get them home to score. They are also using the elevators without a hitch.

:-)

One down, twenty two to go.

mariners2001
10-09-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Are we talking about the same SP AI that would stand stock still and take occasional shots at you then run away in a straight line when you pull their gun?

Or perhaps were you referring to the saber wielding opponents who spend half the fight tossing their sabers (and losing them), taunting, and jumping off cliffs?

True. The SP AI is far from perfect but at least they can keep their feet on the ground and take offense instead of always running away. The bots are no competition when it comes to saber combat.

And the thing is SP AI don't need to pick up items, they just are supposed to get in your way. Bots are supposed to simulate MP players, meaning they are supposed to run laps around the map collecting gear and getting frags.

Agreed, but the bots should be somewhere between simulating MP players and the competitive SP AI rather than the wooden, straight line bots they have now. Don't you think?

razorace
10-09-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
To bot route a map you use console commands yes, but Each map has a corresponding .wnt file which is the actual bot routes for the map.

Once we have them routed properly the .wnt files in the assets0.pk3 will have to be replaced with the new ones.

We are doing the CTF maps first, then the FFA maps then dual then siege.

JKII.net never posted the pack we submitted for JKO and would never answer our emails as to why they did not. So we will submit them for sure to OJP when they are all finished and we are happy with them. We want the people that are interested to have a way to find them and get them easily.

Glad to see some interest in this for a change!

Could you link us to a tutorial of how to do it ourselves? I've got some time before the SDK comes out. :)

Anyway, the reason why JK2.net never posted was because their whole file posting system fell apart at the beginning of this year and was never fixed. I think they just gave up and started on lucasfiles.com.

As for OJP, it's not a file server, it's a development/feature platform for JKA. The purpose of which is to make it so modders with individual projects don't have create duplicate features (and waste time) and to provide standards for map additions, bugfixes, etc. that Raven can't or isn't going to put in the game themselves.

Anyway, editting the asset files is a bad idea. It will prevent people from being able to play on vanilla pure servers and risk causing other problems. It's much better to make it a seperate file in the /base folder or in the /gamedata folder.

Vsync
10-09-2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
Trust me, I understand, and there are several reasons other than connection that some people prefer to play against bots. I for one won't buy or play any FPS game that does not have them.


Maybe an improved botroute pack for release is in order for the near future. I just wish there was a forum just for the discussion of improving bots, botroutes and bot support for models and skins so those of us that play against them could put our heads together and make some improvements in those areas.



What's really weird is this game is based on the Quake3 engine, which has some of the best bot coding around( second to Unreal Tournament of course), and if I remember correctly even on maps with limited waypoints the bots still performed up to par. Even the Battle 1942 bots could run circle around the JKA bots and that has some of the dumbest bots around. Well we'll just have to see if Lucasarts and Raven pay attention to these forums and add new stuff to the patch. Remember they listened before and added stuff to the Jedi Outcast Expansion pack *whoops* I mean Jedi Academy :)

Darth Kaan
10-09-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Could you link us to a tutorial of how to do it ourselves? I've got some time before the SDK comes out. :)

Anyway, the reason why JK2.net never posted was because their whole file posting system fell apart at the beginning of this year and was never fixed. I think they just gave up and started on lucasfiles.com.

As for OJP, it's not a file server, it's a development/feature platform for JKA. The purpose of which is to make it so modders with individual projects don't have create duplicate features (and waste time) and to provide standards for map additions, bugfixes, etc. that Raven can't or isn't going to put in the game themselves.

Anyway, editting the asset files is a bad idea. It will prevent people from being able to play on vanilla pure servers and risk causing other problems. It's much better to make it a seperate file in the /base folder or in the /gamedata folder.

Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with.

We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch."

Make sure you hold your breath until that happens....

Darth Kaan
10-09-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Vsync
What's really weird is this game is based on the Quake3 engine, which has some of the best bot coding around( second to Unreal Tournament of course), and if I remember correctly even on maps with limited waypoints the bots still performed up to par. Even the Battle 1942 bots could run circle around the JKA bots and that has some of the dumbest bots around. Well we'll just have to see if Lucasarts and Raven pay attention to these forums and add new stuff to the patch. Remember they listened before and added stuff to the Jedi Outcast Expansion pack *whoops* I mean Jedi Academy :)

Yes, yes, maybe they will improve the bots in a patch. That's how it will happen...

JediLurker
10-09-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with.

We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch."

Make sure you hold your breath until that happens....

Tell me you're kidding? Please? :(

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-09-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with.

We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch."

Make sure you hold your breath until that happens....

Please please please post your improved bot routes at www.pcgamemods.com. If you are registered there you can post files instantly. I run two Jedi Academy servers that have customized bots. I don't run pure servers so I would be willing to alter my assets0.pk3 files if the CTF routes in particular are better. Or please email me at adminamidala@comcast.net so I can get my hands on your wonderful enhancements. Or please send me the one you finished so I can at least have one good bot CTF map. Thanks!

razorace
10-09-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with.

We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch."

Make sure you hold your breath until that happens....

Uh, what?! I was never trying to imply that! I know myself and many other people that run servers or can't play online would love better bot routing. I was simply suggesting a standard so people don't get confused by working on/using many different sets of bot routing for the default maps.

Is JKA bot routing just like Q3 bot routing? Would a Q3 tutorial apply to JKA?

Darth Kaan
10-09-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Uh, what?! I was never trying to imply that! I know myself and many other people that run servers or can't play online would love better bot routing. I was simply suggesting a standard so people don't get confused by working on/using many different sets of bot routing for the default maps.

Is JKA bot routing just like Q3 bot routing? Would a Q3 tutorial apply to JKA?

@ RazorAce and whoever may be interested in routing maps yourself, Wedge wrote an excellent tutorial for bot routing;

http://wso.williams.edu/~jshoer/botroute.htm

with some time spent doing it and through trial and error, once you understand all the addflagged commands (waypoint flags) for getting bots to navigate an entire map and use elevators without getting stuck or hung up, you can improve them dramatically.

@ Amidala and JediLurker....We are routing all the stock maps now we just won't be releasing them en mass. However, we will be more than happy to share them with those that want them. If you two would be so kind as to PM me, I will see that you get them. All the CTF maps are almost finished.

JediLurker
10-10-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
@ Amidala and JediLurker....We are routing all the stock maps now we just won't be releasing them en mass. However, we will be more than happy to share them with those that want them. If you two would be so kind as to PM me, I will see that you get them. All the CTF maps are almost finished.

Message sent.

Considering how horrible the bots are in simple duel and FFAs, I can't imagine how bad CTF is without the improved paths. Must be no easy task. Thanks again!

Kurgan
10-10-2003, 02:57 AM
We also need to figure out how to give bots orders (if we can't, how to make it so in a mod) like you could in Q3A.


Off topic.. anybody know how to bind Voice Chat commands to keys? (Rather than having to use that slow menu)

razorace
10-13-2003, 06:19 AM
Say, how do you guys handle the waypoints for going down elevators? I just picked up the bot path tutorial and elevators seem to be a problem area.

Kurgan
10-13-2003, 08:06 AM
However, since most players claim they hate fighting bots because they are so easy to beat, there was never any interest in improved bot routes in JO, so he decided not to release his improved .wnt files for JO and now JA because of that. However, If there was enough sincere interest, I am sure he would.

As far as giving bots orders.....yes it would be nice and it could probably become reality once the SC for MP is released if someone had enough interest and skill to code it. But due to the majority opinion bots are a waste of time, and the fact that there is no appreciation for vastly improved routing, I doubt that will ever happen.

It's really a shame when a mod maker REFUSES to release their work because they assume nobody will appreciate it. (Based on what.. a few negative forum posts?)

I mean no offense, but do people have to actively stroke their egos to get them to release a quality piece of work? Just make it, release it, you spent your time on it, it's your work to do with as you please.

Remember, every famous person is both loved and hated, not only loved.

I guarentee you if they released it right now on JK2files or pcgamemods or lucasfiles, it would get posted and it would get USED. I'd put it on my server for sure. Hell, send it to ME and I'll post it on my site (with full credit of course).

Even if it was just 5% better than what's in the game right now I'd do that. And the opinions of the servers that will use them are all that matter. Who cares if Joe Schmoe who never plays with bots won't use it?

Besides, the author will never know how much his work will be appreciated until AFTER he releases it. Remember how many whiners we have in our community?

If modders only listen to them then the only mods we'd ever get will be slow motion "movie duel" mods with nerfed force powers and nerfed special moves + 1 billion emotes and hilts (and a skin of Darth Maul).

To reiterate... release it, this is what the community needs. When the whiners see bots that are actually worth something, they won't be so quick to scoff at them! I'll test whatever you want if that will help.

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-21-2003, 08:38 AM
I had noticed that with the standard routing done by Raven the bots got stuck in one spot twirling around rapidly, jumped off ledges to their doom, refused to go on elevators or got crushed by them or stuck in them, ran right by health, ammo, and weapons that they needed, and generally lived up to their lame reputation. Even though I had enhanced my bots' reaction time, accuracy, speed and range of rotation, weapon preferences, and Force configuration, the poor bot routing condemned them to lameness.

So I read the tutorial listed above:
http://wso.williams.edu/~jshoer/botroute.htm
and even though I'd never done bot routing before, I made a new bot route for mp/ffa1 Vjun Sentinel. Wow, what a difference! Not only did they not get stuck or jump off ledges, they kept picking up health, weapons, and ammo just like real players. They are still a little shy about elevators, but they are so much better. Combining their improved routing with the performance enhancements makes them fun to watch. I turned about 10 of them loose on each other, a combination of Light Siders, Dark Siders, single, dual, and saber staff, and even one melee bot who uses guns, Force, and fists only, and it was total mayhem. Lots of fast-paced action, and best of all, no whining about "laming", a definite advantage over some humans.

If you like to practice against bots, or if you use bots to even out teams in CTF, definitely try your hand at bot routing. I can't wait to get some bot routes done by people who actually know what they are doing (um, I meant unlike me, no offense intended Raven).

JediLurker
10-21-2003, 08:43 AM
I gave routing a shot, but I failed miserably at it.:D

My bots actually got worse.

ManaMana
10-21-2003, 06:17 PM
Why not spawn a reborn? :P:P

razorace
10-21-2003, 06:37 PM
I beleive the current problem is three fold:

1. The bot jumping/falling behavior is messed up. Whenever they're ordered to jump or fall to a waypoint, they will attempt to move in the direction of their target while jumping/falling. This means that the bots suicide a LOT. I will try to fix this when the SDK comes out.

2. The elevator behavior for the default maps is terrible. Bots/players have trouble going down them. I will also try to fix this when the SDK comes out.

3. Someone screwed up the botrouting. Some of the maps has funky @$$ botrouting.

Dance Commander
10-24-2003, 11:46 PM
I have never read a more perfect description of JA as


Jedi Outcast Expansion pack *whoops* I mean Jedi Academy

Seriously....

This game is to JO as MOTS was to JK. A new character and different colour LS.

Grrrrr...

:evanpiel: <----what the hell is this?

Luna the Great
10-25-2003, 01:23 AM
Hi I'm Luna, I made the infamous Jake bot and took great pride in the lines and lines of random chatter that Jake could spew while he valiantly swung his saber at the other players... and the floor.. and the air.. but anyway...

Wow did they screw up bots or what?

Dear god I'm so glad that someone has mentioned the godawful bot pathing. Also note that while you can give bots double and staff sabers they use them quite poorly even when you use a super fast reaction bot (which with single in JKO would at least give an average challenge to a good duelist.). They also seem to run away from the player, usually while leaping backwards.

Also bots apparently won't say more than one line per section. (I would like additional confirmation of this, I run my bots with excessive chat options but even one of my relatively silent bots says only a few things.)

I wish we had been given a lot more options for our bots, tweaking reaction time gave a challenge in JKO but with the kata heavy combat of JKA I would appreciate more bot capabilities and options.

Darth Kaan
10-25-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by razorace
I beleive the current problem is three fold:

1. The bot jumping/falling behavior is messed up. Whenever they're ordered to jump or fall to a waypoint, they will attempt to move in the direction of their target while jumping/falling. This means that the bots suicide a LOT. I will try to fix this when the SDK comes out.

2. The elevator behavior for the default maps is terrible. Bots/players have trouble going down them. I will also try to fix this when the SDK comes out.

3. Someone screwed up the botrouting. Some of the maps has funky @$$ botrouting.


1. Bots do exactly what they are instructed to do. It is easy to improve the ones in JA. To get bots to navigate a whole map takes practice at routing. A quality route is not as simple as slapping down some waypoints with addflagged arguments.

2. If you route correctly bots will take elevators with no problems.

3. The bot routing in JA is poor because there are not enough waypoints in the maps route files and the ones that are there are poorly placed.

Tinny
10-25-2003, 02:12 AM
i was wondering, you know on some maps how a rancor spawns? what if we could make maps where single player npcs spawn, once they're dead there could be a way for them to respawn again. ofcourse the stormtroopers and the like would be useless unless you added singleplayer npc routes, but having dueling mulitple dark jedi with friends would be fun :)

razorace
10-25-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
[B]1. Bots do exactly what they are instructed to do. It is easy to improve the ones in JA. To get bots to navigate a whole map takes practice at routing. A quality route is not as simple as slapping down some waypoints with addflagged arguments.I don't think you understood what I'm talking about. Place any sort of waypoint path that requires the bot to jump or fall to reach it. Then stand near that waypoint. When the bots attempt the jump/fall, they end up trying to move in your direction and often suicide (due to the nature of Star Wars maps). This should not happen. The bots should not attempt to move in your direction while attempting waypoint nagivational jumps/falls. I talked to Rich Whitehouse (the JKA MP programmer) and he stated that it's unlikely that he'll be able to fix the problem due to the QA requirements of such a change.2. If you route correctly bots will take elevators with no problems.Mind explaining then? Having them go up elevators is no problem. Making them go down them isn't (due to the funky elevator behavior). 3. The bot routing in JA is poor because there are not enough waypoints in the maps route files and the ones that are there are poorly placed.Tell me something I don't know. :D

razorace
11-10-2003, 09:35 PM
Ok, I've completed completely redoing the botrouting for two of the original maps: mp/ffa5, mp/duel3. Bots now navigate the whole map including all the elevators.

Bothfiles have been submitted to OJP and should be in the next OJP release.

I'm currently working on more maps, so more is on the way.

Kurgan
11-10-2003, 10:34 PM
Cool.

StormHammer
11-10-2003, 11:35 PM
Keep up the good work, people. And be sure to post links to the files when they're completed. ;)

razorace
11-11-2003, 12:10 AM
Well, I'm looking into getting another version of OJP out soon. Watch the OJP forum for details.

Teancum
01-05-2004, 08:51 PM
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but has anyone else had problems with bot_wp_add not being a valid command in JA 1.01?

lllKyNeSlll
01-05-2004, 09:15 PM
Is it possible to make bots that are extremely good? I mean jk3 uses a q3 enguine, and nightmare q3 bots certainly can beat the average q3 player. And 1v1 no force guns, its still very easy to beat a jk3 custom bot designed to have perfect accuracy. Possibly its because the routes in q3 are better made and the movement is more fast paced.

Kurgan
01-05-2004, 09:47 PM
Okay, so fixing the "jump/fall towards playing while navigating" problem won't be fixed by Raven because it's too much work...

and the "Bot orders" thing requires some coding (I still think that would be a worthwhile endeavor for the benefits it would provide).


We still need quality routes (the current DDS ones are excellent and I look forward to seeing more from OJP!).


While the Duel maps are fine, and Siege is really needed (but more difficult), somebody should get on those Bonus Map pack maps. On several of them bots wait by elevators (one time I had a bot wait out the entire match by an elevator and never moved, only switched weapons, getting zero kills).