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AJL
10-07-2003, 06:01 PM
In movies Jedis were not supposed to use the force to attack
at all... And there is no why... It is just NO! ... And Jedis were
not supposed to feel anger, hate, fear, ...

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But here in Lukes jedi academy they teach that there isn't
dark powers but it is all about how you use them...

Jedis are allowed to feel hate and let it FLOW through them
and they are allowed to be totally consumed by rage and
use the most powerfull hatefull sith powers... like the force
lightning...

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So What do you think about this ???

Maybe Palpatine didn't really fail in his goal to turn Luke
in to the Dark Side... It just happend so insidiously that
even Luke him self haven't noticed it...

Cmdr. Cracken
10-07-2003, 06:09 PM
I think what Luke teaches is sound. It isn't the power, per say, but the manner in which you use it.

example: a Gun isn't inherantly evil. If you use it in self defense, fine.

However, if you use it to activly MURDUR someone, with out provoction, then the weapon is a tool of evil. Methinks teh Force is much like this, as Plo Koon used Lightning supposidly, and he was a member of teh Jedi Councel.

Kurgan
10-07-2003, 06:34 PM
Obviously Kyle (he's the one who says "it's how you use it") has different ideas about the Force than Luke does. Whether or not Luke approves we don't know.

Luke was Yoda's apprentice so you'd think he'd have taken those teachings to heart (it was Yoda who said "never for attack").

In JK, they basically took the interpretation that as long as you let the other guy throw the first punch, violence is justifiable. Some people interpret the "no attack" thing only to apply to force powers, because in all the movies people with lightsabers attack each other all the time.

Anakin uses the Force for attack in AOTC (though we could always say he's getting closer and closer to the darkside) but then what do you call Obi-Wan and Qui Gon using Force Push on battle droids? Or is attacking non-biological beings with the Force morally permissable?

Is the Jedi Mind Trick an "attack" (on privacy or a person's free will)?


Of course in the Republic period, the Jedi are given legal sanction to their actions, much like police forces are, though we never see them get tangled up in any red tape, so they must have a wide latitude with their jurisdiction (or else they are just good about getting away with it)... like some official giving Anakin a tongue lashing for overstepping his bounds, or slamming Obi-Wan for letting his Padawan get out of control, etc.

Then again, according to the EU both Kyle and Luke have turned to the DarkSide and come back (or as near as you can get anyway), so perhaps their teachings are "tainted" and that's why so many of their students fall to the darkness... ; )

We can only speculate!


Although from what I gather, in the NJO books they spout this same philosophy (that the Force is "neutral" and there's no dark/light just "how you use it" or something).

Up to you how you want to interpret it of course.

-=FB=-Jagged
10-07-2003, 06:40 PM
yeah, kurgan, i know what youre talking about. that is jacen solo's idea, isn't it? also something about praxis anger, where the strong emotion motivates the force user, enabling that sort of adrenaline burst of power without the dark side attached.

at least i think that is what the praxis anger is... :confused:

Pedro The Hutt
10-08-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan

Anakin uses the Force for attack in AOTC (though we could always say he's getting closer and closer to the darkside) but then what do you call Obi-Wan and Qui Gon using Force Push on battle droids? Or is attacking non-biological beings with the Force morally permissable?


Well, it's been said that the Jedi didn't need to hold back on the battle droids because they weren't living beings, and therefore can't be killed anyway.

Damar Stiehl
10-08-2003, 02:16 PM
I am personally partial to Kyle's and Anakin Solo's view of the Force: it's a tool and an extension of yourself, you decide how to use it. You can carry a gun and go on a rampage. Or you can carry a gun and be a cop.

Dark Side is not in how you use the Force, it's what you use it for.

Prime
10-08-2003, 02:47 PM
There is a lot of room for interpretation, as self defense could be seen as an "attack". Certainly Jedi see killing as undesirable, but they are more than willing to do so when defending themselves\others\galaxy.

I always took the "never for attack" as not being the aggressor and not for the wrong reasons (anger, personal gain, etc.). I can see how people would have different views though. Actually, I suspect that even different Jedi have different views as well.

Valin
10-08-2003, 03:27 PM
ive always looked at it like this...

Powers and Abilities that are common practice for applieing the force are based off of a base human desire.

Healing yourself, or Healing Another is based off of a desire to stay alive, or help another in pain.

the manifestation of using the force to Choke or Lightening another human being is out of a base desire to inflict injury.

thirdly - the Force is the Force - Light side and Dark side come from how the force is applied. the Light Side generally tends to be for benign purposes or for protecting your self or others.
the Dark Side is almost exclusively aggressive or malicious - and therefore, using the force for you own gain. thus, it can be seen that use of the force to kill, or to make yourself more powerful (READ: greed), then that is evil, and the way of the Dark Side.

Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

Anger, Hate, Vengeance - are all selfish emotions, and pragmatic at best.
the Ends do not Justify the Means - fighting Evil with Evil only makes it stronger...

Tsaya
10-08-2003, 03:55 PM
The Force is the Force - Light side and Dark side come from how the force is applied.

I can't agree there. I don't recall where I read it (mighta been Zahns Trilogy) but the Dark Side is more like raping the force, brutaly taking it's energies while the light side means interacting with the surrounding energies.

In my opinion it does make a difference how you use the force. A truly good jedi wouldn't force the energies by pure anger and hatred and I believe that's the only way to get a result like force lightning.

Valin
10-08-2003, 04:32 PM
ive always beleived that the Sith are diffwerent from the Jedi, in the sense that the Sith bend the force to their will, and use it as a tool or weapon for power.

Plo_Koon_Jedi11
10-08-2003, 05:49 PM
Lol luke made his own Acadamy noone to tell him how to build it good point but Luke Used anger to fight Darth Vader you have a point but you have an opitunety to not learn any dark powers if you learn to many you join dark side it's cool as you can kill all the jedis in the acadimy :D but dark force powers are same as light side powers Luke reminds you not to learn them or have to many or you could fall to the dark side and does anybody know what a Jawas real face looks like :jawa rumours say if a farmer or anyone sees a Jawas face they would die in shock as there face is sou gly weird my by :koon:

Valin
10-08-2003, 06:04 PM
except luke is just the same UltraConservative that Yoda is - Luke see's the Dark Side as being able to draw anyone and everyone to its embrace, and Corran chewed him out for such biased thinking. the dark side is vulnerable to some, but for otehrs, it has no power.

in any case, Yoda DID scare him staright with his ramblings. and Luke falling to the dark side to join the reborn Emperor just sorta made his view more so.

StormHammer
10-08-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by AJL
But here in Lukes jedi academy they teach that there isn't
dark powers but it is all about how you use them...

Jedis are allowed to feel hate and let it FLOW through them
and they are allowed to be totally consumed by rage and
use the most powerfull hatefull sith powers... like the force
lightning...

Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember Luke or anyone else giving a green light to using 'Dark side' powers. Kyle uses them...but Kyle is Kyle. He's always on the knife edge and taking risks, and in a way he is tainted more by the Dark Side than Luke.

However, as I was using Dark Side powers in the game, Luke kept popping up and telling me he sensed more anger in me, and not to fall prey to the Dark Side.

The only real problem I found in the game is that you didn't have a real alternative to butchering everything in sight. Mind Trick was okay for a few enemies, but unless you could move some distance away from them quickly, the effect would wear off and you were back to square one.

Kurgan
10-08-2003, 06:13 PM
I always thought the Jedi ("light"side sect) used the Force to SERVE others and the common good, whereas Sith (darkside sect) used the Force to seek power OVER others.


Healing yourself, or Healing Another is based off of a desire to stay alive, or help another in pain.

Though one could use heal to keep a victim alive so you could torture them some more. Just speaking hypothetically here.


the manifestation of using the force to Choke or Lightening another human being is out of a base desire to inflict injury.


Although a force user could choke an enemy into unconsciousness to avoid having to use more lethal means (killing them).

Lightning by the same token, could be used to stun an opponent. That is actually the philosophy behind most so-called "non lethal" police weapons (which unfortunately are not 100% non-lethal, people still can be crippled or die from them sometimes)... to cause PAIN to disable a person without killing them, so make arrests easier and to take them out of the fight so they can't harm people.


thirdly - the Force is the Force - Light side and Dark side come from how the force is applied. the Light Side generally tends to be for benign purposes or for protecting your self or others.
the Dark Side is almost exclusively aggressive or malicious - and therefore, using the force for you own gain. thus, it can be seen that use of the force to kill, or to make yourself more powerful (READ: greed), then that is evil, and the way of the Dark Side.


Perhaps, but don't the Jedi use the Force to kill? The subtle distinction is that we see them use the force to aim their lightsaber to kill, rather than directly trying to killing with grip or lightning.

If a Jedi force pushed an enemy off a cliff, would it be the Dark Side?


Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.


And the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Anger, Hate, Vengeance - are all selfish emotions, and pragmatic at best.

Jedi could be corrupted too of course. And what about "righteous anger"? Or are we saying that Jedi can kill all they want to (as long as they remain "at peace" with themselves?)?

Just being a devil's advocate here.


the Ends do not Justify the Means - fighting Evil with Evil only makes it stronger...

And all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. And an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. ; )