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View Full Version : The great anti-aircraft debate


saberhagen
10-09-2003, 11:20 AM
Should troopers shoot aircraft? Are aa rockets WRONG?



I think for the sake of balance, we definitely need a cheap aa unit which is available in T2 and built at the TC. I'm sure we all agree that if there is no T2 (or whatever the equivalent is in your own design) unit which can shoot at aircraft, then aircraft will be overpowered and whoever can get to T3 first will win.

I think most people generally feel that shoulder launched anti-aircraft rockets are not very Star Warsy. The best anyone can do is that they might exist somewhere in the Star Wars universe.

Well, here's what I'd do:

Basically, I'd keep things as they are, but redesign the T2 aa unit slightly. It would still be built at the TC, still be available in T2 and have the same stats and resource cost. It would just look different and have a different name. As a starting point, the rebel one could be based on the radar laser canons they had on Hoth. I know there weren't used in an anti-air role in the films, but they would look more convincing than a trooper with rockets. Maybe you could justify it by saying that it could be angled upwards and that the radar dish doubles as a scanner (I know this is all made up, but then so are rocket troopers and lots of other units). The designers would have to use their imagination a bit more for equivalents for other civs, but as they managed to come up with lots of new mechs, air, navies and an entire Wookiie civ, I'm sure they could manage it.

I know, it's a cop out - the same as before but different graphics. But I think that in terms of balance and gameplay CC is as near perfect as you can get and I wouldn't want to change very much about it.

Admiral Vostok
10-09-2003, 11:16 PM
Good idea making this a separate thread rather tha filling up the personal design threads with it.

Anyway, what you're proposing has some merit. One of my biggest dislikes of rocket troopers is not just the fact that they aren't very Star Warsy, but also that every civ would need an almost identical unit, which doesn't lend itself to uniquneness very well. Rebels with rocket launchers is mildly acceptable, but Gungans with them is just plain wrong.

Since the ball hasn't fully started rollng with this thread yet, I might take the opportunity to fully explain the way early ati-air will work in my design, snce that seems to be a major issue. In SWGB1, we have Anti-Air Troopers with rocket launchers, while no other Troopers can shoot Air. I believe that apart from being un-Star-Warsy, this also makes for poor gameplay because it really fails to properly integrate Aircraft properly into the game. They really are obviously an after-the-fact add-on to the engine, where only one type of unit can shoot at them.

In my design, ordinary Troopers can shoot at Aircraft, but dedicated Anti-Air Troopers do not exist. I should also note, though I haven't expressed it explicitely before, that in my design Command Centers are very similar to those in Age of Mythology: they have a basic attack even when no-one is garrisoned inside, and this attack can be strengthened by garrisoned Workers/Troopers, and this attack can shoot Air as well as Ground. As such I think this makes early air rushes very hard to succeed even when you have no units that are dedicated Anti-Air units. Your ordinary Troopers can shoot at Air, albeit poorly, which is a minor deterrent, but a fully garrisoned Command Center should be able to render rushes from fighter units very difficult indeed. Fighter-type Aircraft are very weak against buildings, and I don't intend allowing any bomber-type Aircraft to be built until my T4 equivalent, and if you're still stuck in T2 when your opponent is in T4 you would probably have lost anyway.

In reality, the task of Anti-Aircraft is not he job of the Trooper. This task is left to Mechs with Anti-Air abilities and to other Aircraft. While some members of this forum seem to have an irrational hatred of realistic games, I think that if adequate gameplay can be created around fundamentally realistic ideas it will produce a truly great game. I have attempted to do such a thing, and while there are non-believers out there I firmly believe it can be done.

As a final note, I should add that while I think widespread use of Anti-Air Troopers is wrong, one or two civs may employ them still. At the moment I intend to include a dedicated Anti-Air Trooper for the Rebel Alliance and the Wookiees, as these civs tend more towards guerilla warfare. These Anti-Air Troopers won't be available until other civ's Anti-Air Mechs are available, however.

Darth Windu
10-10-2003, 05:23 AM
Ok, on to my idea for AA in SWGB2.

Infantry: all civs get the Rocket Trooper. This includes the Naboo, although the Rcoket Trooper for the Naboo are Naboo, not Gungan.

This trooper is good at AA and Anti-Armour, but is ineffective vs infantry and buildings, and is quite weak.
They become available just before or at the same time aircraft do, thereby balancing early aircraft.
Although a generic unit, there are some bonus'. For example, Rebel Rocket Troopers have an Anti-Armour bonus, while Wookiee Rocket Troopers have an AA bonus. Furthermore, Rocket Troopers are subject to the different cost/armour/firepower values of each of the civs listed in my idea.

Mechs/Armour: this is where you get your main AA weapons. Although Rocket Troopers are useful, later in the game they arent really a good idea for going up against large airforce's.
Hence, we get to mechs. Generally, the largest and 2nd largest mechs for each civ will be able to shoot at aircraft, such as the AT-TE, AT-AT, AT-ST, AAT etc, although for the Republic it is their 2nd and 3rd largest.

Different civs also have different effectiveness' against aircraft. For example, the confed's get the Hailfire droid, an exeptional anti-Mech and anti-Aircraft droid, similar in concept to a larger, faster, better armed Rocket Trooper. However, it is realy, really bad against infantry.
The wokkiee's, because of their lack of an airforce, get the best AA. Their Anti-Aircraft Tank has the longest range of any mobile, ground-based AA weapon, and is deadly to anything airborne. However, it is poor against everything else.

Aircraft: obviously the best AA weapon available, read my idea for stats

Ships: fairly good, although the Wookiee AA Cruiser is the best

Buildings: read the idea...

As to rockets being un-Star Warsy, that is utter rubbish.
George Lucas chose to use rockets in Star Wars, hence, they are realistic in a Star Wars context.

Frozted_MM's
10-10-2003, 05:50 AM
Lucas doesnt decide what goes into the game the designers take stuff from the movies and work from there. In all the starfighter games I haven't seen a person firing rockets to take down an aircraft mechs,fighters and troops are the only things ive seen.

saberhagen
10-10-2003, 10:55 AM
Allowing troopers to fire at aircraft but not being very good at it will also have an impact on microing, which some people might like and some people might not. On the one hand it will make new tactics possible but might also make the game more complicated to play. I can see both sides and don't really have an opinion myself, but I thought I'd point it out.

For example, you could use fighters as meat shields to protect your troopers or lure away enemy troopers: send in fighters to attack the troopers and while they're shooting at the fighters (but not doing much damage) your troopers can get in the first shot against them, or just go and kill workers.

Giving a fully garrisoned cc a good aa attack could work quite well in T2/early T3. It's quite similar to when you put workers in turrets during a strike rush. Although you can fight off the rush, it hurts your econ because your workers aren't working, and if the fighters hang back out of range you'll still need to send units out to kill them or they'll just keep your workers pinned down and your econ stops dead.

I've got more doubts about it post-boom because it could become far too convenient - when you build a new cc that area is automatically covered by aa, so you don't have to worry about building aa turrets or sending aa units to cover the workers. At that stage in the game, a cc would effectively be a cheap fortress. It might make raiding too difficult/ineffective and give too much power to the defender.

lukeiamyourdad
10-11-2003, 12:43 AM
Very good points.

The CC's Anti-Air capability won't be that useful. All of your ressources at that stage of the game(if you take two players of about the same skill) won't be close enough to your CC and unless your workers run like hell, you'll lose a whole lot of them. It still ain't the best early anti-air idea.
And with that the fact that you might not build a new CC in early T3(or 4 depending on your point of view).

AU_Skythe
10-11-2003, 05:54 AM
i dont think the trooper should get AA attack. It would be like marines in starcraft, Marine>everything
except mega long range stuff with splash damage. It would be one uber unit. Where as in GB, you have to mix up your armies with more than one unit. If Lucas suddenly released a patch which removed AA troopers and gave normal troopers a crappier anti air and made them stronger vs strike mechs or in general i think youd know what we would be seeing. Air units would be pretty much out of the fray with a one unit counters all type scheme, you would only need to mix a few grenadiers in with your troopers and your set.

Frozted_MM's
10-11-2003, 07:22 AM
If u dont build another CC in t3 stop playing the game now

DK_Viceroy
10-11-2003, 09:49 AM
For My Idea I Have AA Defenecs avaible in the First Encrypt Level Though Realsistically though everypne i tyhink has alreafdy guessed in star wars the answer to an airforce was an airforce. So that's why i've allowed the mechs to be in one level and the aircraft to come in the next level after that and since at least one mech has anti-aircraft capability people will have them set up. for a dedicated anti aircraft infanty unit i'm planning a unit that deploy's into an emplacement and deploys a large cannon with targetting systems and then targetsb aircraft that way.{ i got that from episode 4 and episode 6 since infantry manned the guns of the death stars.}

lukeiamyourdad
10-11-2003, 07:35 PM
Frozted- No no you don't get it. By the time you'll build a new CC(unless you commit a lot of workers on building it), your enemy will be able send a few fighters your way, and since infantry cannot shoot at aircraft unless shot at first, they'll just aim for the workers building the new CC. When the workers are down, they just wait there and slowly slaughter down your econ.

Frozted_MM's
10-12-2003, 12:05 AM
If you have ever played online you would see that people build 6 or more CC's not your little rook games you play but major inter games. The enemy can only send fighters if he knows its there the shroud will cover it unless his fighters are in that same spot.

If you have ever played this game and by the last few comments its doubtful the shroud will cover it. You can scout the dark black shroud which reveals the map but not the units only the enemy buildings will be shown on your screen but the units are still hidden.

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2003, 06:21 AM
Frozted, stop flaming people just because they don't play on the Zone. The reason many of us don't play on the Zone is because there are a lot of people with very similar opinions to yours which just make people like us feel totally un-welcome. Stop being so self righteous and try to understand that you can still play challenging games without having to resort to the Zone.

Luke's Dad: In my design Troopers can shoot back if any friendly ground units are attacked by air. This is more realistic and less exploitable (you can't shoot all the non-Trooper units first to avoid being shot at).

Skythe: Of course removing the AA Trooper from the current game and giving Troopers an small AA attack wouldn't work, but we are talking about SWGB2 here, where it will be entirely balanced into the game.

Saberhagen: A comment on the scenario you suggested: the AI will make Troopers preferentially shoot at other Troopers over Aircraft, so that won't be so much of a problem. But you're forgetting that you are not supposed to rely completely on your Troopers to take care of Aircraft, because things will not go well. If you do send in a force of only Troopers, you deserve to get slaughtered by a combined enemy force of Troopers and Aircraft.

As for post-boom, civs will have access to more powerful forms of Aircraft, against which the Command Center will be less effective. Relying on the Command Center for protection is not a good idea.

Frozted_MM's
10-12-2003, 08:38 AM
I only said it cause I don't like being told how to play the game by someone who has never really played it themselves.

Don't go all up tight guys just cause your little party is over and new guys have arrived isn't time to start a NoN-zoners and zoners war now is it?

I especially don't like it when people start thinking they know all this stuff and opening up these templates just based around the movies you can't do it, empire would be the super power if you really want it based this way. Even your template vostok lacks alot of what us PLAYERS would love in the next game which is you don't have enough units most of them are just straight from the movie which is great but we need more then what the movies provide.

Darth Windu
10-12-2003, 10:49 AM
Vostok - so now it's if ANY units are attacked. I remember you saying a while ago that it was only if the troopers themselves were...interesting...

BTW Frozted, can the 'high-and-mighty' attitude

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2003, 11:00 AM
Frozted - read this (http://www.hyperjump.net/galaxy/swgb2/Outlines.html). It explains how I'm only considering the canon-based units, though obviously more units are needed to make a good game. I understand what you're saying, though I recognise I am not a professional game designer so I'll leave completely making up units to the pros.

Now, what exactly do "real" gamers like yourself want in the new game? So far you've contributed nothing and merely flamed our ideas.

Windu - read it again here (http://www.hyperjump.net/galaxy/swgb2/UnitClasses.html#Troopers). I haven't changed it since I first put it up because, as I've explained, my webpage provider is being moved to another server so it isn't letting me change anything, which is why the Empire still isn't up.

saberhagen
10-12-2003, 07:49 PM
Frozted: I think we ALL know that you have to build more CCs in T3. Luke's dad was pointing out that in this template, workers will be so vulnerable to air that they might not be able to build a second CC. Surely you know that it's a good idea to scout the enemy's base before you rush them? By the time you're bringing your fighters in, which if you're rushing should be early in T3, you will know where the first CC is and you will know that the enemy's workers won't be far away. If they go outside the AA range of their CC, the fighters will get them. This will make booming very difficult until you've got enough fighters of your own to see off the enemy air.

Vostok: if the AI makes troopers shoot at troopers before air, my point will still be true, just the other way round - you'll be able to use troopers as a meat shield to protect your air. I wasn't saying any of this was necessarily bad, just pointing out th epossibilities.

lukeiamyourdad
10-13-2003, 01:05 AM
Ditto that's what I meant.

Frozted- Don't get me wrong, we do not want any zoners vs non-zoners war. New people came here and said they were all so better then us so we didn't really appreciate them trying to get us to shut up and let them decide who should rule the world.

Saberhagen, Sith and pbguy are zoners and are very welcomed here and never have they flamed our ideas by the simple:"I'm a zoner, I'm better then you".

Please chill. We've welcomed you pretty well if I'm correct.

Admiral Vostok
10-13-2003, 02:14 AM
Saberhagen: Yes, that should be a possibility, and I don't want to change things so that isn't a possibility. You should not be relying on the Troopers for Anti-Air, if you do, you can easily be defeated as you have pointed out.

I can see the problems you're pointing out concerning expansion. If you're expanding in T3, you should bring along one or two dedicated Anti-Air units such as AA Mechs or Fighters (which you will have access to since you're in T3). Also I should add that in my plan ALL civs will have access to a Turret in T2, which shoots both Ground and Air. This is further deterrent against early Air rushes.

lukeiamyourdad
10-13-2003, 02:28 AM
After hearing the turret point I've got nothing more to say.

Frozted_MM's
10-13-2003, 03:54 AM
I really never said that im better cause im a zoner. If I didI wouldn't be saying anything good about your ideas. Since those turrents you mentioned do both I think they should be expensive otherwise it will be a nightmare to get in the base at all with turrents covering the whole base.

BTW who said you could stop ignoring me :cool:

Frozted_MM's
10-13-2003, 04:04 AM
Ive explained what we need in many of the other post.....

But we still need the balance which some of them have covered sort of. Diversity but not to much to throw the whole thing off. Explain what counters what. Also we need
t1- basic troop element
t2-standard troops, possibly mechs
t3- hvy troops,basic mechs, basic air,hvy weapons (dont know something is needed to destroy buildings not from massive range but we need something)
t4- hvy mechs, advanced air, advanced hvy weapons,
t5- if you wanna get further basically a upgrade stage or maybe a couple of unique units that will be over powered in early techs. maybe rockets come into play in this stage equipped with fighters.

DK_Viceroy
10-13-2003, 08:36 AM
ANd You Lot thought I was bad and Frosted the consensus round here is that we need to replace tech levels with something more star warsy Really though the answer to an airforce is an airforce that is star warsy

Frozted_MM's
10-13-2003, 08:43 AM
I know I just left the Tech levels in so people can call them whatever they want it really doesnt matter.

True about the answer to air force is air force part but you can have support units on the ground to help esist the fighters.

Maybe even not giving the civs with great fighters like rebels any mobile AA units so they have to rely on fighters to take it out might be a nice idea but who knows.

Yes im the consesus all ideas go through me if I no like they will not be posted if posted I will have no other choice but to flame!!!!
:rolleyes:

DK_Viceroy
10-13-2003, 09:04 AM
Actually your not the consensus i once had a bad attitude like that and i soon dropped it take heed of my advice it is so easy to ignore people and you have showed so jmuch promise

Frozted_MM's
10-13-2003, 09:17 AM
LOL!!!!

PLZ your template would never work!!! No offence because its way to complicated where many have said. Way to much EU has gone into it who wants to play a game where star wars civs have never been heard of these secret civs of yours will not go down well with the multiplayer community.

This is what ive picked up just quickly flipping through your ideas. Try to decomplicate it and start using grammar that we can all relate to.

Hey you said I'm the consensus and you go changing your mind.

I'd rather keep the attitude and have everyone on the forum hate me then become light headed and produce ideas that would make the game fall apart and the MP community numbers crumble so I can point out your faults and start saying I think you should fix it here and here. But no you guys get on the defensive like windu and start crying that someone has come here and not liked your ideas.

I haven't really flamed anyones ideas just said my peice and if I come off a little to strong....................








DEAL WITH IT!!!

Admiral Vostok
10-13-2003, 01:18 PM
I'll ignore the beginnings of the flame war going on here for the moment...

Frozted - actually I intend to make the Rebels and Naboo rely almost entirely on their Air Force to counter Air. They will have support anti-air units, but they will be very weak. For example the Naboo's Troopers are weak, so they'll do even less against Air than normal Troopers, but they might also get an Anti-Air Speeder, very similar to their existing speeders. The Rebels might get a proper Rocket Trooper (I think they're the only civ this can really work for) and no Anti-Air mech.

Frozted_MM's
10-14-2003, 06:29 AM
Yea well playing Naboo and Rebels you should really build an airforce anyway since its there best asset.

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2003, 11:33 PM
Exacltly, and I want to ecourage this by making them reliant on Aircraft.