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Ionio
10-12-2003, 05:14 PM
I know i'll get flamed for this but I don't think JA is anywhere near as good as JK2. Ok it has some nice new moves and rancors, but JK2 had a better story, better designed levels. Considering that JK2 is 18 months old JA just hasn't got enough to offer.
Multiplayer is crap, the 2 new modes become boring very quickly.
The singleplayer levels aren't as good as JK2's, and the acting is terrible. Jaden (male especially) sounds like a monotonous, broken, answering machine. Alora - she might as well just be another reborn. Tavion - her hairs even worse than before.
The AI is terrible, stormtroopers just stand and shoot, in JK2 they moved more.
The graphics are marginally better, although the concussion rifle looks stupid.
The dual and staff sabers are good, but not enough to save the other aspects of the game.

That's just my humble opinion, what do you guys think?

Sam
10-12-2003, 05:19 PM
Hmm I thought the level design in JK 2 was horrid and the JA levels were good........

Pedro The Hutt
10-12-2003, 05:29 PM
The troopers moved in SP for me.
And so you like a huge box with several smaller boxes in it, connected by a few walkways and needing to use precise Force jump to find the frigging right button of the communications array (which to make sense should all be on one control) panel better than anything that JA has to offer? I think not, at least JA levels always make sense in terms of Star Wars realism. Said giant box could make no sense since there was no way in hell that the imperial workers could've gotten there, unless they got piggyback rides from the reborn XD
But overall, I find that JA went above and beyond what JO achieved.

g//plaZma
10-12-2003, 05:43 PM
I agree with all the points he had made except for the level design. Especially in multiplayer, the level design was a lot better (most likely because a different company designed some of the maps)

The gameplay depth has decreased, though.

Neverhoodian
10-12-2003, 06:00 PM
All Quotes are from Ionio
Multiplayer is crap, the 2 new modes become boring very quickly
Well, they're certainly better than Jedi Master and Capture the Ysalamari in my opinion. The fact that Siege servers are almost always full attests to that.
The singleplayer levels aren't as good as JK2's,
I'd have to disagree. There was times playing JO SP levels, after completing the third death-defying-jump-puzzle in the level, where I was left thinking, "How the heck do the technicians perform repairs in the base?!" Most, if not all of the JA SP levels, on the other hand, seem more realistic in architecture and enemies seem logically placed.
The AI is terrible, stormtroopers just stand and shoot, in JO they moved more.
Though this may be the case for the stormies, it's a whole different story when the Cultists and Reborn are factored in. The idea of the Cultist duo, where one comes at you with the saber and the other one stays back and pummels you with Force powers, was a stroke of genious and make for challenging battles, particularly if you don't have Absorb. If it wasn't for such pairings, the Cultists would be embarrassingly easy in later levels.
Tavion-her hairs even worse than before.
At least she doesn't have that mask thing anymore. It made her look comical, like she was pretending she was a robber or something. With her new "Harley biker girl" look, I'd say it's a big improvement.
The dual and saber staffs are good, but not enough to save the other aspects of the game
Well, it's open to speculation, but I'd say the new sabers went a long way for JA. In every MP mod I've played for JO, the saber staffs and dual sabers are never as balanced as the single saber. In JA, every type of saber seems to be fairly well balanced.

Anyway, there's some feedback. I think JA is an excellent game, but to each his own.

bodstevens
10-12-2003, 06:04 PM
I agree with most said. mp is crap i had high hopes for siege (ive played alot of tow for moh) but the force drain on moves, no option for jedi only siege, stuck in place during kata/specials, weak sabers, no kick or slow daown move for s/o CTF ( none is playing s/o ctf), sucky levels and ugly hilts and online servers have awful ping times all other games i play like bf1942sw all have sweet pings but ja have crappy pings....
I ve played sp a few times through its ok bit better than jo levs but still kinda boring the 3rd time...and no npc's.... damn jk1 had civilians you could help made you feel more jedi like...

i love the jk series but they keep screwing it up. MP is very important and they seem to make it a tack on effort and then say let community mod... dumb cuz we need a united community not a divided one like in jk2 that died 6 months after it came out...
damn this has got me started....

Master William
10-12-2003, 06:08 PM
I think JK2 was better - I won't bother installing it though.
The level design of Jk2 was better in my opinion, I loved the SP maps, while I just thought the JA SP maps were ''ok''.

About the MP maps, they truly suck. The old ones were way better. The only map I like is Vjun Sentinel (mp/ffa1)

But the concussion rifle isn't ****, and Tavions hair isn't ugly.

Emon
10-12-2003, 06:12 PM
I think anyone who believes JO SP had superior level design has some serious personal issues to work out. That being said, you go sort them out, but don't drag the rest of us down with you.

Master William
10-12-2003, 06:21 PM
Are you saying I have personal problems? If you are, you're a big *censored*.

CastleBravo
10-12-2003, 07:33 PM
IMHO the level design in JA is WAY better than it was in JO... JO was just wierd and stupid with too many jumping and button-pushing puzzles with no logical basis whatsoever (even in Star Wars fantasy terms).

AI seems the same to me, though the paired Cultists are easily wiped out if you use Force Absorb. Yawn.

The story seems weaker, though, and the "do levels in any order" thing is pointless... you still have to do all the same missions, and if you skip levels when they let you, you just lose out on force points. Then again, not having to play that scrawny-ass Kyle model with the nerf herder suit is a plus. :D

Emon
10-12-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by CastleBravo
IMHO the level design in JA is WAY better than it was in JO... JO was just wierd and stupid with too many jumping and button-pushing puzzles with no logical basis whatsoever (even in Star Wars fantasy terms).

What's what I was getting at, Master William. If you can't take a little humor, maybe you should leave.

ChineseJedi
10-12-2003, 08:41 PM
I thought JO had better SP save for the first two levels.

Master William
10-12-2003, 09:05 PM
Where should I leave? :)

PrimoSidone
10-12-2003, 09:28 PM
JO does not have better map design than JA.

JA uses far more polygones and has that ghoul2 stuff from sof2.
When u guys say mp is ****ed up: look @ JO now, everybody is like using red stance, and jumping forward, jumping back, with the luck of they happen to hit. JA is REALLY a jedi fight game.. it aint that lame like : look i am jumping, its storming in and be the victor.

just my 2 cents

Master William
10-12-2003, 09:50 PM
No, I meant JA MP is screwed up because there are no really fun maps, and there is too much bugs and unbalanced stuff.
I just looked at the Rebel Pilot model, and guess what... When they reskinned that strange lizard model, they forgot to remove those spikes that he has attached under his knees.

Just look, they forgot to remove the ones from the left leg.

ChineseJedi
10-12-2003, 10:10 PM
I don't think JA is worse than JO. JA is definately better than JO but that is because it is almost 2 years old. JA made major improvements on JO but that is the problem, they only improved. There wasn't anything revolutionary and furthermore they used the same engine. I don't care how many polygons are in a model, JA graphics are pretty much the same as JO. Ultimately JA is a good game but it is definately does not live up to its predecessor.

anonymous4
10-12-2003, 10:11 PM
voice actings SUCKS. ONLY kyle and luke's voice actings were good. the rest sucks. jaden korr both male and female voices suck. stormtrooper's voice is too static-y and i can barely listen to what theyre saying.

-=FB=-Jagged
10-12-2003, 10:29 PM
master william - no wait, why should i call you master? ahh, in that case, william...

level design??? mp level design??? didnt someone just say that JO MP has devolved into red style jumpslash and backflipping? and your worried about the level design? ok, so maybe you really ARE worried about the MP levels. do you like the JO MP levels? guess what? you can play them in JA! isn't that great?

good grief.... :rolleyes: i cant believe that you could go download the levels and you are whining about how you could miss them.

anyways, tavion is WAY hotter in JA than she was in JO.

and as for the stormies AI, turn up the difficulty level.

and as for the duel cultists, one with saber, the other with force, you COULD absorb their attacks...

...or you could use blow the force user away with a lightning blast. :D

Gabrobot
10-12-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by anonymous4
voice actings SUCKS. ONLY kyle and luke's voice actings were good. the rest sucks. jaden korr both male and female voices suck. stormtrooper's voice is too static-y and i can barely listen to what theyre saying.

Jaden's voice sounds fine to me, and the Stormtroopers voices are supposed to have static in them...they're talking through the intercom thingies on their helmets! :rolleyes:

killabilly
10-12-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by anonymous4
voice actings SUCKS. ONLY kyle and luke's voice actings were good. the rest sucks.
But what about Chewies? ;)

Master William
10-12-2003, 10:41 PM
No server ever has the old maps on, and if they do, it's some crappy american server with 400 ping or more.

Prime
10-13-2003, 12:40 AM
Many of the jump puzzles and silly switch locations in JO were ridiculous. If anything JA has superior level design just because they took those out...

Kurgan
10-13-2003, 04:01 AM
IMHO, JK2 was a good SP game with some bad puzzles and frustrating early levels.

However I enjoyed MP much more, because the moves felt tighter and you could do more of them (force wise and otherwise).

JA has some flaws that JK2 seemed to avoid, for example the bot support has a lot more quirks in it (especially on a map like Vjun... or in CTF, or in Siege they simply aren't there, no waypoints).

The SP game (though I haven't completed it) is more generic, as you'd expect in a game that lets you design your own character and pick the order you play missions in and skip some, etc.


However that being, said and despite a few bugs, I'm finding JA much more enjoyable overall than JK2. It meets or exceeds standards set by the first game in almost every area.


Not to flame, but I had to laugh at some of these complaints:


I agree with most said. mp is crap i had high hopes for siege (ive played alot of tow for moh) but the force drain on moves

This was for balance sake. Remember how everybody whined that the DFA, etc were "Spammed"? Well now you can't spam 'em!

Of course you can always up your mana regeneration rate and spam them again just like you could in JK2. One typed in command in the console or in your cfg file.


, no option for jedi only siege,

LOL!!! Did we both play the same game? Siege_Korriban is nothing but Jedi...


stuck in place during kata/specials,

You can spin 360 degress and aim up and down with the mouse during katas, did you know that? You can also "turn" with the mouse at various points during the Butterfly move. You can't spin during the DFA or Lunge, but why would you want to? You couldn't do that in JK2 1.04 either.. that's how Raven intended it.

The pivoting during the backstab and DFA were design oversights and exploits that Raven corrected in patches because that's how they intended to balance gameplay. They added in dedicated spinning special moves (that actually looked good rather than a weird buggy animation of a guy spinning in place while doing a move that doesn't spin) so people could still do that.


weak sabers,


LoL... saberdamagescale 2. Actually the sabers are just as "weak" as they were in JK2, because in JK2 you had to enter a command (saberdamagescale 2) to get 'stronger' sabers, so this comment is completely off base. You can make sabers kill in one hit with one command in any game mode, or you can make them do 1 hp of damage, again, by changing one number.

If you're talking about single player the same thing applies. You can adjust the damage and dismemberment already to your heart's desire. It's not hard.


no kick or slow daown move for s/o CTF ( none is playing s/o ctf),


The NG FF CTF elite thing rears its ugly head. Hey, I am trying to help you guys by suggesting solutions. Check the "Idea: How to Fix Sabers Only CTF.." thread (think it got pushed to page 2).

If that's all that's stopping you from liking JA, why don't you make a mod that puts flip kicks from JA single player into MP? Problem solved.


sucky levels and ugly hilts

Sucky levels? That's up for discussion, but the "ugly hilts" thing is nonsensical. In JK2 you only had one hilt, and in JA you can use that exact hilt if you want to. So really this argument works against JK2 which you seem to like better. Besides, making new hilts is a snap... and JK2 hilts work in JA as well. Frankly I don't see the huge deal, with one tiny model and texture you barely ever notice in a furious MP game...


and online servers have awful ping times all other games i play like bf1942sw all have sweet pings but ja have crappy pings....

Try All Seeing Eye. I did a scan right this second and I see 559 JA servers, 1063/7023 players and at least half of them are sub 200 ms ping (I'm on DSL in Iowa). The lowest pinged server is 63 ms. The next lowest is 104 ms. Etc...

Yes, there is a stupid bug in the master server/in-game browser that only shows like 30 servers, but with ASE you can see that the plain fact is there's way more than that and with better pings too.



I ve played sp a few times through its ok bit better than jo levs but still kinda boring the 3rd time...

What SP pc game these days is fun playing over and over again? Most people will play a game through once (if they finish it at all), maybe twice if it's really good (play it on easy the first time, hard the second time or use cheats to mess around) or has multiple endings. MP is what's designed for multiple plays.


and no npc's.... damn jk1 had civilians you could help made you feel more jedi like...

Again, we obviously didn't play the same games did we? JK1 and MotS had more "non combatant" npc's in SP than JK2 and JA combined. However JK2 had the ughnaughts, and JA has the Jawas (and I'm only halfway through the game and I noticed them). Both games had droids wandering around that wouldn't attack you. JA also has wandering herds of animals (like Taun Tauns).

It doesn't have as many as JK1, but saying it has "none" is totally wrong.

Kurgan
10-13-2003, 04:39 AM
No server ever has the old maps on, and if they do, it's some crappy american server with 400 ping or more.

Well don't blame us "crappy Americans" blame your fellow Swedes who won't host the server with the maps you want.

I see seven Swedish servers and none of them are running custom maps, but that's not my fault or my countrymen's fault...


My point in all of this is NOT that JA is a perfect game, far from it. Or that it lacks flaws, it obviously has them.

But to bash it and act like JK2 was far superior I think reeks of over-nostaligic hubris about that game. If you liked the storyline better or the old maps better, that's fine (and of course as pointed out you can use all the old maps in the new game, some tweaking still required, though considering the mapping tools were just released, that should be far easier very soon)...

In the end there's no accounting for taste.

MrDomin0
10-13-2003, 04:49 AM
As usual Kurgan I am glad that there is at least one intelligent person in these forums to bring sanity to the mindless babbling.

Originally posted by Master William
No server ever has the old maps on, and if they do, it's some crappy american server with 400 ping or more.

The question is then: do you complain to the makers of the game or the admins of the Swedish servers you play on? I find it hard to make the connection that it's Raven's fault that the old JO maps aren't played in Sweden. I haven't had a problem with it yet here in the US of A. And to clarify, the reason that those "crappy" American servers have high ping is because there's an ocean between you and them. If you don't like the map rotations on local servers, make your own. Take some of Kurgan's advice while your at it.

I am also fairly confused as to why people don't like Tavion, I think her character design this time around is lightyears better than it was. I think the character artists did a pretty savvy job with everything, sans Rosh of course. But that goes without saying.




Gah! Blast you Kurgan for posting while I was typing.

Kurgan
10-13-2003, 04:56 AM
Heh, sorry about that! ; )

My advice would be, contact those seven Swedish server admins and point them in the direction of pcgamemods.com's Jedi Academy files section.

Have them download JKII_ffa.zip, JKII_duel.zip, JKII_ctf.zip (and if they're big fans, the JKII original voices pack as well) and they should handle the rest.

Greymon
10-13-2003, 05:17 AM
There are lots of reasons JO SP is better than JA sp in my opinion. People seem to think that just because JA is flashier, that makes it better. But here's my take on it:

1)JA requires absolutely no brain power to play through. Not a single thing worth being called a puzzle.

2)JA is too short. It definitely took longer to finish JO (though that was a short game as well.)

3)Rosh, aka Darth Jar Jar.

4)As someone else stated above, the voice acting in JA blows. It makes the acting from the movies look good.

5)The story is incoherent. There's no sense of flow or consistency. Plot is barely present. And when it is it makes no sense. It's a collection of user made maps thrown into the guise of an official game.

6)Graphical glitches and horrible animations.

7)While none of the maps had that incredibly stupid doomgiver jump/dial/radio/thingy map, there are many things equally as stupid. The swoop map for one. Anyone else notice that if you dont ride on a swoop bike, suddenly you're surrounded by 10 bikers trying to ram you. It doesn't matter if you're standing against a stone wall, they'll still ram you...and they dont die from it. And thats only one of the AI bugs on that map. Even worse than trip is that Byss map....not a damn thing on that map made any sense. I'm not going to break down all the stupidity in that one but it makes the doomgiver map from JO look like a work of art. The only thing about JA sp maps is they are better looking than JO maps. But better looknig doesn't make them better.

8)The AI is horrible. Read what I said about the swoops. There's worse than just that. How about rancors reaching through walls or reborn suicide swan diving off high places...

9)I like the JO tavion better.

10)The boss fights in JA blow. The first boss fight was such a drag. I was looknig forward to a spectacular saber fight..not a nintendo game style "jump forward attack, wait for enemy move, dodge simplistic enemy attack pattern, jump forward attack, rinse, repeat." The second fight was slightly better for the light side. The dark side final was decent but not as good as the JO boss fight.

As for MP I'm not going to repeat the way too numerous gripes, but I agree with 90% of them. Too slow, too weak, too boring, too unbalanced, etc...

Kurgan, not everyone has a server to use all those settings you throw out. And not many server admins will listen to people's suggestions. Just because those variables exist doesn't mean his complaints aren't valid. Raven was stupid for making mp default to the way it does because default is what 99% of the servers will run.

Syzerian
10-13-2003, 08:10 AM
i liked the JO saber trails better than those streaky blurred trails in JA the JO ones look much more movie like but nothing that cant be changed by a mod i guess;)
the good thing about JO is that every force power had its part in sp like some bits u would have to mind trick certain people to get them to open doors but in JA mind trick is just a niffty but useful trick to use on those cuncussion cannon firing big robot thingys then stab them to bits:D
and yes the voicing does need redoing in JA when jaden is ment to be scared or angry or happy he still just talks like a mindless robot almost like hes....posessed.....:eek:
also its extremly annoying when u r in a saber lock with a dueler and they throw their saber and kill u when u only have lvl 2 push and cant break the saber lock
and also the sabers just look like squares and too solid

Astrotoy7
10-13-2003, 08:55 AM
JA has a different emphasis than JO. This was stated quite clearly by the developers, we all know that. Just because Kyle has to solve some puzzles and mind trick a couple of imps doesnt make JO better or worse, just different. Personally, I think the shift of emphasis from puzzles to action increase its replayability. In JO, when I finished a challenging level, I said 'phew' and didn't revisit it for a long time, if ever. Also, some of the cool 'action' levels were the ones I kept going back to just because they were a fun hack n slash, like artus detention......

I dont mind JA at all. Of you a want a brainbuster type challenge, go play chess, or Myst or somethin'............ And the swoop level, c'mon man - FUN !!!

As for the storyline, the remnant and sith wannabees are getting old. But I loved the EU references...

Why dont you import the JO maps so you can use your JA character in JO SP maps...thats fun, you can get the best of both worlds....

otherwise, I guess if you don't like it, don't play it !

MTFBWYA

Syzerian
10-13-2003, 09:08 AM
im not saying its bad i love this game:D
im a massive jedi knight fan but after about 2 months of JO i wanted real challeging fun so i would always noclip into the jedi saber training place and just lightning them then they attack u and see how long u can last ( they r immortal ) also if u go into the room with the guy fighting those little ball flyie droid things and hold down the switch... well ill let u see for ur self funny:p
yup i agree about the swoop level i played that for ages over and over going backwars is fun too lol i sat there once pushing guys off them cuz they keep coming so u end up with an army after u lol
but the things i dont like will most likely come out in a mod in a month or so once the game becomes more populated
btw what is EU ive only read the storys of the whole original star wars saga (9 eps) i guess this is a whole new saga

EDIT: i also like how they have brung back that missiony feel of jedi knight 1

Aryyn
10-13-2003, 09:27 AM
You guys have to give MP a chance to grow and it will most certainly crush JO in every aspect. As for SP i mean both games have their good and bad points but id rather run around on Hoth on a tauntaun and get into speeder bike chases than run around on a level thats the same over and over again like on JO. Not to mention playing as Kyle. In time JA will truly be a really great Star Wars game with all the customization that will happen. People are starting to come up with really cool mods. Just give it time i thought JO MP was terrible when the game came out and with time i sat there and played it 8 hours a day because of people coming up with the mods that made it 100 times better. And the cool mods which made JO MP great such as the staff,dual sabers and all the acrobatics Raven put in the game strait out of the box. Just give it time you wont be disappointed id bet on it.

Kurgan
10-13-2003, 10:09 AM
Greymon:

There are lots of reasons JO SP is better than JA sp in my opinion. People seem to think that just because JA is flashier, that makes it better. But here's my take on it:

Facts: JA is technically superior to JO. JA offers more variety option-wise than JO.

Opinion: JA is more fun than JO.


1)JA requires absolutely no brain power to play through. Not a single thing worth being called a puzzle.

Which is why even before the game came out and to this day we have nearly daily posts asking how to get out of such and such a place they are "stuck" in. Either people are really really stupid, or its not as easy as you let on. ; )


2)JA is too short. It definitely took longer to finish JO (though that was a short game as well.)

How long should a game be? 15 hours of gameplay is what JA was estimated as the average by the developers. I forget about JO...



3)Rosh, aka Darth Jar Jar.


You've got me there. I surrender... ; )


4)As someone else stated above, the voice acting in JA blows. It makes the acting from the movies look good.

Surely you don't mean AOTC? Argh... I think the guy who did Kyle did it with more "feeling" in JK2 than the man and woman who played Jaden, so on that I agree. Saying it "blows" though... I dunno, you sure you're not just mad because they didn't make a different Rodian and Kel Dor voice?


5)The story is incoherent. There's no sense of flow or consistency. Plot is barely present. And when it is it makes no sense. It's a collection of user made maps thrown into the guise of an official game.

Can't comment since I haven't beaten the game yet. The plot in both games seems pretty EU-generic... Bad Guy is building a big army consisting of Imperial left-overs and Force sensitives to take over the galaxy, blah blah blah, using ancient Force artifact(s).

Gee, now that you mention it, sounds a lot like the plot of JK2! The only real difference is that this time you're not playing as an already established character with a past history.


6)Graphical glitches and horrible animations.


I concur with the glitches. I'm running on High model detail and medium world detail. The world looks fine but I see a lot of model clipping on the player models. The animations aren't "horrible" (no less horrible than JK2) unless you're harping on how much you hate the ragdoll system (which can be toggled off you know) as some have already done.


7)While none of the maps had that incredibly stupid doomgiver jump/dial/radio/thingy map, there are many things equally as stupid. The swoop map for one. Anyone else notice that if you dont ride on a swoop bike, suddenly you're surrounded by 10 bikers trying to ram you. It doesn't matter if you're standing against a stone wall, they'll still ram you...and they dont die from it. And thats only one of the AI bugs on that map. Even worse than trip is that Byss map....not a damn thing on that map made any sense. I'm not going to break down all the stupidity in that one but it makes the doomgiver map from JO look like a work of art. The only thing about JA sp maps is they are better looking than JO maps. But better looknig doesn't make them better.


Respawning enemies is something a lot of people hate. But I remember in JO I had the problem of going into empty rooms sometimes, then returning and seeing a group of people appear suddenly. How about that "stealth" level? Heh.. great idea, poor execution.

Again, I haven't played the entire game, so maybe I'm missing a "really bad level" somewhere down the line, so I'll get back to you on that one. I'm more a multiplayer guy anyway.

On the face of it though, the inclusion of the rest of the force powers and making it more similar to MP has definately an improvement. For example not being able to dodge those snipers on Nar Shaddaa was pretty aggravating (and unlike some people, I actually played on Jedi Knight difficulty, so I didn't get to dodge like Neo automatically).


8)The AI is horrible. Read what I said about the swoops. There's worse than just that. How about rancors reaching through walls or reborn suicide swan diving off high places...

I agree with you there, the AI is bad in places, and the bot AI needs improvement in MP as well. Of course a bigger problem for me in JO was the fact that you could shoot a Stormtrooper six times with your blaster (if you could hit him that is, since it was so slow and inaccurate) and he'd still be alive.


9)I like the JO tavion better.


I still wouldn't date her, but that's just me. Ooops, did I just say that about a video game character?? I was joking... yes. ; )


10)The boss fights in JA blow. The first boss fight was such a drag. I was looknig forward to a spectacular saber fight..not a nintendo game style "jump forward attack, wait for enemy move, dodge simplistic enemy attack pattern, jump forward attack, rinse, repeat." The second fight was slightly better for the light side. The dark side final was decent but not as good as the JO boss fight.

I fought Alora, and though I thought she was easier than Tavion, I wasn't disappointed. In JK2 your first "boss fights" were against individual Reborn, who tossed their sabers away and then just stood there while you cut them to ribbons, often in 1 or 2 hits.

I can't say about the rest of the game (JA, since I haven't beaten it yet). I enjoyed Galak, but how can you not say that that fight was formulaic like an old nintendo game? It totally was!

And fighting Tavion in JK2, c'mon, I used a pattern to defeat her as well (fight fight fight, run, heal, fight fight fight, etc. until you win).

Desann was about the only boss that wasn't formulaic, but then, he was super duper easy to beat (speed+fast stance, slash slash until dead, or if you're creative, knock that big pillar on his head).


As for MP I'm not going to repeat the way too numerous gripes, but I agree with 90% of them. Too slow, too weak, too boring, too unbalanced, etc...

Cvars, cvars, cvars, that's all I have to say about that. If you listen to all the whiners, you'll be bowing and dueling with medium stance only, no force, before long. ; p


Kurgan, not everyone has a server to use all those settings you throw out.

A lot of people don't have internet access either, so they can't play multiplayer. But you know what? Tough cookies. Raven made a game and they put options in it that you could change to your liking. The fact that people don't avail themselves of these is not their fault.

The fact that so many JK2 servers were overrun with the "honor" folks and their goofy rules and vote-kicking tendencies should work against it if the community's behavior is the judge of a game.


And not many server admins will listen to people's suggestions.


Maybe not, but have you tried? A lot of server admins just do what they want, but can't you find a server that has what you want? I bet you anything you'd like my server if you joined, considering the things you complain about (unless you're one of the honor folk, in which case you'd probably hate it).


Just because those variables exist doesn't mean his complaints aren't valid.

Actually yes it does.

It totally invalidates them. Let me give you an example...

Somebody joins a football team and refuses to wear his helmet. Later on he gets a massive concussion from getting hit in the head. The doctor tells him that if he'd worn his helmet he'd be fine. Now he wants to blame the coach or the other players for injuring him.

That's about how much sense it makes. Because he had the option to use a helmet and in fact there were clues everywhere that he may have been better off to use one, but he refused, he got hurt, and now he has no one to blame but himself (then again, if I were his coach I'd throw him off the team for his own safety at some point).


Raven was stupid for making mp default to the way it does because default is what 99% of the servers will run.

If that's true, then they were stupid when they made JK2 as well, because those defaults are the same.

JK2 has weak sabers, slow gameplay, etc etc. all the stuff people complain about in JA.

And you know what? Those arguments against JK2 don't hold water either, because the options are there are well (ie: if this argument works against JA, it also works again JO)!

You can use saberdamagescale 2 in JK2 just as easily as you can in JA. But play it on defaults and they will both seem "weak."

The fact is, every day more and more admins are learning (some the hard way) that certain options are more fun, more balanced, whatever than others, and as this occurs, people joining those servers may be enjoying themselves more.

Jahs
10-13-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by PrimoSidone

When u guys say mp is ****ed up: look @ JO now, everybody is like using red stance, and jumping forward, jumping back, with the luck of they happen to hit. JA is REALLY a jedi fight game.. it aint that lame like : look i am jumping, its storming in and be the victor.

just my 2 cents

Actually, this depends entirely how you play the game. I played jk2 in roleplaying clan (yes, the kind that ruin FFA's :rolleyes: ) and we played the game like jedi. We parried, counterattacked, deflected, attacked etc etc. And Im quite certain that we could defeat most people roaming these forums in a no force, saber only duel, as that was about the only thing we practiced. Almost everyday for more than a year. During that time, I felt like a jedi.
But, when I go onto a JA dueling server, and get my arse handed by some new kid who presses and holds attack, I don't feel very jedi-like. I don't know if this can be changed by console commands, but until I do, with the dual and doublebladed sabers, JO's mp is better than JA's.

But that's just my 2 Ųren.

Damar Stiehl
10-13-2003, 05:46 PM
JK2 levels made me want to beat my head into the wall sometimes. ESPECIALLY the buggering Communicator level on Doomgiver. I ended up turning noclip on and just cheating my way through it.

Some JKA levels could be a bit longer, but not so as to drag on forever like JK2 levels did. I was happy to see less jumping puzzles, and less "find button, push button, find door which just opened" puzzles that made NO BLOODY SENSE in JK2.

Sabre-wise, I'm quite happy with my dual sabres, not quite making the lightstaff work, but oh well.

And I LOVE being able to play someone other than Katarn and (sigh) be young again.

The_Cru
10-13-2003, 05:50 PM
"I know I'll be flamed for this"..

Why do you even freeking post something like this? Utterly pointless. So you don't like the game. Who gives a...?

If u don't care, why post?

FK | unnamed
10-13-2003, 05:51 PM
JO's MP is far more precise and refined, where as the emphasis on JA MP is on the "cool special effects" end of the spectrum.

You can't really say you are surprised that the devs spent more time working on Star Wars eye candy rather than focus on eliminating the sloppy game play.

Most modern day movies are like this too.

The Plot?
Who cares, it had "great special effects".



That said, with a little tweaking I think JA could be a much better game than JO if some small game play refinement is done.

The game does not need a "total overhaul" by any means.

It just needs to be "tightened up" in a lot of areas to be brought back on the precise level of combat that JO was.

The_Cru
10-13-2003, 06:08 PM
I agree. Personally I completly appreciate the "special effects" 'cause that's not have I see them. I see them as what they are, for me and the developers most likely - advancemnts in gameplay. Maybe not as big advancement as HL>HL2, but heck, it wasn't THAT long ago JO came, was it? =)

Patching will always be needed even when usability tests/"beta tests" are done by the book. I might be blind, but I certainly don't complain, at least when it comes to Siege :D

Cheers/Guinnes

KaiaSowapit
10-13-2003, 08:12 PM
I am flabbergasted that some actually prefer the default MP maps of JK2 over Academy's.

Huh??? Are you people for real?

Sure you can argue the bot routing is better... but beyond that?

Personally, I celebrate the day ffa_bespin is eradicated from memory.

Academy's maps are a quantum leap improvement. Better architecture, better lighting, better texture... heck if nothing else they're just plain BIGGER.

As for the SP story & plot of either game, honestly I was equally disappointed in both. Can't we ever get something a little more sophisticated than cartoonishly evil villians hell bent on taking over the galaxy with mystical Force artifacts and a handful of left-over stormtroopers? Even real-time-strategy games like WarCraft have more depth (and better cut-scenes).

And finally, regarding "old" Tavion vs. "new" Tavion - how 'bout old "smurf" Reborn vs. the new Reborn? You can't tell me they didn't improve things there.

killabilly
10-13-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
For example not being able to dodge those snipers on Nar Shaddaa was pretty aggravating (and unlike some people, I actually played on Jedi Knight difficulty, so I didn't get to dodge like Neo automatically).
You can control your character to dodge sniper shots?? :confused: I didnt know that...




How...???

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-13-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by killabilly
You can control your character to dodge sniper shots?? :confused: I didnt know that...




How...???

If you use Force Seeing level 3 and it is turned on (it has to be on), if you are shot above the waist you will "Matrix-dodge" the shot. Doesn't work if you are shot below the waist (ouch!).

Andy867
10-13-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Master William
No, I meant JA MP is screwed up because there are no really fun maps, and there is too much bugs and unbalanced stuff.
I just looked at the Rebel Pilot model, and guess what... When they reskinned that strange lizard model, they forgot to remove those spikes that he has attached under his knees.

Just look, they forgot to remove the ones from the left leg.


Well, the Mapping tools for jedi Academy were released yesterday, so just give it time for more quality maps and decent ones to be released... I thought the Maps by the group Digital Core were execellent, especially the simplistic yet fun Arena of the Rancor.

starstorm971
10-13-2003, 10:42 PM
I wouldn't comment on the Game...yet, wait until the Patch comes out, then you can comment oo it all you want.

boinga1
10-14-2003, 12:48 AM
Why are you so sure there will be a patch?

Emon
10-14-2003, 01:07 AM
We know from Raven that there is material for a patch, we don't know if LEC will let them release a patch.

Kurgan
10-14-2003, 01:09 AM
We aren't positive, we only know one is being worked on.
Hell, they put bug fixes and updates into the code for the demo, so even that much is obvious.

However with all the bugs that people have sent in to Raven, you'd think they'd have a pretty convincing case to bring before LA.

So yes, theoretically LA could say "nope, no patches, sorry" and that'd be it (then it would be up to modders to "fix" what they thought was wrong with the game, leading to all kinds of chaos).

Andy867
10-14-2003, 01:45 AM
yea, but a particular bug that would be extremely difficult to fix without some help from Raven would be the in-game Master server browser, which we all know is very buggy by only showing a handful of the hundreds of servers available.

CK_EmPreSS
10-14-2003, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
JO's MP is far more precise and refined, where as the emphasis on JA MP is on the "cool special effects" end of the spectrum.

You can't really say you are surprised that the devs spent more time working on Star Wars eye candy rather than focus on eliminating the sloppy game play.

JO has been patched and JA has not seen its 1st patch yet. So, the gameplay of JA isn't as precise as JO yet. Also, there's more to the mp action in JA than in JO, so the future patches will fix things up. Sure, raven could have made the mp better and less sloppy in JA... but then we wouldn't be playing it now because the release date would have been sometime in 2004.

Just wait for the patches, then complain...

FK | unnamed
10-14-2003, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by CK_EmPreSS
JO has been patched and JA has not seen its 1st patch yet. So, the gameplay of JA isn't as precise as JO yet. Also, there's more to the mp action in JA than in JO, so the future patches will fix things up. Sure, raven could have made the mp better and less sloppy in JA... but then we wouldn't be playing it now because the release date would have been sometime in 2004.

Just wait for the patches, then complain...

psst

JA = JK2 with some engine modifications, additions and a graphical overhaul.

I know this may be a shock to you but it is.

Go look on the official site under the FAQ section and read the technology and game play sub sections.


The reason there is no excuse for this game being released in as sloppy condition as it was is quite frankly, many of the bugs that are in JA were present in Jk2, and if over a year and a half of people telling the devs about them was not a long enough time, then I sure as hell don't know what is.

but really who cares, I have no idea why I am arguing with star wars nerds, you people will buy any load of b.s. someone tries to sell you regardless of the quality, just so long as it fulfills your darth maul fantasies you people are happy.


:rolleyes:

I give up, enjoy the empty servers and your homo erotic honor codes.

You people deserve it.

Greymon
10-14-2003, 03:41 AM
Kurgy:

I thought I'd indulge your affinity for long post debates.

Which is why even before the game came out and to this day we have nearly daily posts asking how to get out of such and such a place they are "stuck" in. Either people are really really stupid, or its not as easy as you let on. ; )

Do you really want me to give my opinion on this? :eek:

Actually, look where people get stuck: Bakura, due to the bug. And Vjun, due to a lack of exploration...Again, not a damn thing in JA that requires any thought.

How long should a game be? 15 hours of gameplay is what JA was estimated as the average by the developers. I forget about JO...

Ever played Half-life? I didn't pay $50 for HL and the game was both better and 3 times as long. In fact, the HL expansions cost half as much as JA and they were still longer! In fact, JA is the shortest game I've ever bought with the possible exception of the first Quake...which may actually be longer, still.

I dunno, you sure you're not just mad because they didn't make a different Rodian and Kel Dor voice?

Nah! Never even used a Kel-Dor or Rodian. Too ugly. The acting is just bad...all around. Then again, maybe the acting is bad because the material the actors were given was so bad...

Can't comment since I haven't beaten the game yet. The plot in both games seems pretty EU-generic... Bad Guy is building a big army consisting of Imperial left-overs and Force sensitives to take over the galaxy, blah blah blah, using ancient Force artifact(s).

Not what I meant. The main plot isn't what bothered me...except for the whole Rosh thing...What bothered me was the lack of direction and sense of purpose to the missions. The goal of the cult was to resurrect Ragnos, so why the hell do they try to destroy a rail on Corellia, release a rancor in a spaceport, blow up Bakura, etc...These had nothing to do with their goal of resurrecting Ragnos! And now that you've got me started on bad stories, lets talk about Byss.

Lets see: the uber-powerful Jedi Master Katarn and his best student are sitting perfectly still...in space...trying to sense....stuff. Yet they manage not to sense the imperial dreadnought that parks right above them? I mean, really now, the dreadnought inverted and stormtroopers were giving Kyle the finger while taking polaroids and Kyle didnt sense them until it turned its tractor beam on. Not even to mention the fact that the Ravensclaw didn't detect it (yea I know, some lame EU excuse will be given.) And then, what do Imperials do when they're capturing an enemy vessel with a tractor beam? Nothing! They certainly dont send a large troop contingent to wait for their guests in the hangar bay! So, Kyle decides to destroy the ship...Imperials realizing "Oops, maybe we shouldn't haven't let them on our ship unguarded" call for help...which immediately shows up in the form of tie bombers to destroy the dreadnought...thats already going to be destroyed by the self-destruct sequence...and still has their imperial friends on board! So Kyle tells Jaden to destroy the Ties so they dont destroy the dreadnought that Kyle himself is trying to destroy!!!

Really now, do I need to continue about how bad Raven's writing is?

Respawning enemies is something a lot of people hate. But I remember in JO I had the problem of going into empty rooms sometimes, then returning and seeing a group of people appear suddenly. How about that "stealth" level? Heh.. great idea, poor execution.

My complaint wasn't about the respawning enemies in and of itself, but of the idea of the horrible AI of them trying to ram a guy they easily could have blasted to death. And why do they ram a guy thats standing in front of a stone wall? And why dont they die when they do? My complaint is that the AI was absolutely horrid and it really shows in that level. The only way to go thru that level without it sucking is to immediately jump on a swoop and keep moving.

I agree 100% about that stealth level. Great idea....why isnt it in JA?

I agree with you there, the AI is bad in places, and the bot AI needs improvement in MP as well. Of course a bigger problem for me in JO was the fact that you could shoot a Stormtrooper six times with your blaster (if you could hit him that is, since it was so slow and inaccurate) and he'd still be alive.

Oh tell me about it...I still hate how slow blaster shots travel. I do remember some frustrating fights with a stormtrooper who ran circles around me taunting me while I blasted every wall, floor, and ceiling in kejim outpost until I ran outta ammo....but thats not AI and its still bad in JA.

I still wouldn't date her, but that's just me. Ooops, did I just say that about a video game character?? I was joking... yes. ; )

I don't know what you're talking about. I'd date her but Jan gets jealous ;)

And fighting Tavion in JK2, c'mon, I used a pattern to defeat her as well (fight fight fight, run, heal, fight fight fight, etc. until you win).

This isn't the same type of pattern, though. Once you fight her in JA you'll see what I mean. Then think back to your duel with her in JO and you'll understand my complaint. Your pattern was something you chose to do...against this Tavion its something you have to do. In JO, Tavion was a good saber fight, in JA, it's...not.

As for Desann, if its too easy to use Force Speed, then don't! To use your style of advice against you :D

A lot of people don't have internet access either, so they can't play multiplayer.

Yes they can.

Raven made a game and they put options in it that you could change to your liking. The fact that people don't avail themselves of these is not their fault.

Where in the JA materials does Raven tell us how to change this stuff? In fact, absent an extremely rare post on a forum, Raven hasn't said much of anything about MP. Yes, it IS Raven's fault. If they really intended the average disgruntled fan to customize, why didn't they make it more user friendly? They could have listed all these commands somewhere and explained what they did. Hell, they could've made a user interface to adjust these.


The fact that so many JK2 servers were overrun with the "honor" folks and their goofy rules and vote-kicking tendencies should work against it if the community's behavior is the judge of a game.

So lets judge JA by its community...1) a bunch of unhappy people who realize mp sucks, 2) people who will defend JA to the death, without any thought on the merits of it, because it says Star Wars on the box, and 3) a bunch of button mashers running around (slowly) talking about how "1337" they are and how much they "pwn j00". :rolleyes:

Maybe not, but have you tried? A lot of server admins just do what they want, but can't you find a server that has what you want? I bet you anything you'd like my server if you joined, considering the things you complain about (unless you're one of the honor folk, in which case you'd probably hate it).

As soon as I get my cable back I will try your server. Assuming I can still stand playing MP and can take time off from my SP mapmaking.

It totally invalidates them. Let me give you an example...

Somebody joins a football team and refuses to wear his helmet. Later on he gets a massive concussion from getting hit in the head. The doctor tells him that if he'd worn his helmet he'd be fine. Now he wants to blame the coach or the other players for injuring him.

That's about how much sense it makes. Because he had the option to use a helmet and in fact there were clues everywhere that he may have been better off to use one, but he refused, he got hurt, and now he has no one to blame but himself (then again, if I were his coach I'd throw him off the team for his own safety at some point).

First, shame on you for using analogies on a computer game message board. Second, your analogy is flawed. Here's a better fit:

The Raven Football League sends two teams onto the football field without helmets and whistles the beginning of the game. An overwieght, obnoxious fan (you know, the same one from every sports movie you've ever seen) yells out "Hey! Wear youse guys a helmet!" However, the football players never hear that one guy in the very large crowd of a very large stadium. The player hurts his head. The team doctor says he would've been fine and enjoyed the game more if he'd warn a helmet. Doctor advises the player to sue the pants off the stupid Raven Football League officials for not requiring them to wear helmets.

Now THAT'S an appropriate analogy ;)

As for JK2, the default MP is better than JA's. The sabers may be weak, but they're not near as weak as JA's. I never had to hit someone with 5 red sabers to kill them in JO. And the saber collision was FAR better in JO.

Prime
10-14-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
The reason there is no excuse for this game being released in as sloppy condition as it was is quite frankly, many of the bugs that are in JA were present in Jk2, and if over a year and a half of people telling the devs about them was not a long enough time, then I sure as hell don't know what is.

but really who cares, I have no idea why I am arguing with star wars nerds, you people will buy any load of b.s. someone tries to sell you regardless of the quality, just so long as it fulfills your darth maul fantasies you people are happy. At least now you know not to buy another Star Wars game (from Raven anyway).

Originally posted by FK | unnamed
I give up, enjoy the empty servers and your homo erotic honor codes. Certainly I won't enjoy the honor code stuff (homo erotic or otherwise), but with the All Seeing Eye there doesn't seem to be a lack of full servers.

FK | unnamed
10-14-2003, 03:49 AM
for a game that has been out three weeks dude, the # of people playing it is just plain sad.

Prime
10-14-2003, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
for a game that has been out three weeks dude, the # of people playing it is just plain sad. That could be. But for me at least, I don't seem to have any problems finding a game to play in, so I'm happy.

Andy867
10-14-2003, 03:51 AM
You know in that sense, we could technically say that

Jedi Outcast= Q3TA with engine modifications, additions, and graphics overhaul.

So why insult a perfectly good engine that has allowed all of us, you included unnamed, to continue in the Jedi Knight games series, because if it wasn't for Raven, LucasArts probably wouldnt have contracted someone to make something similar to Outcast for at least another 3 or so years... I mean, look how long it was between MOTS and Jedi Outcast... Almost 5 years. That should be a clue right there that without Raven, there probably wouldnt have been Outcast and Academy, so dont go knockin it over the little things were we all should be thankful that Raven gives a rats ass about our video game wants.

Emon
10-14-2003, 03:57 AM
You know, if you don't like it, you don't have to play it. And you especially don't have to post here. Threads like this aren't needed.

FK | unnamed
10-14-2003, 04:17 AM
You people just don't get it do you?

I have stated on many occasions that Outcast was not just a good game, but a revolutionary game.

It was the first star wars game to ever get sabers "right".


That said, can you honestly sit here, and let's cut through all the "fan boy/fluff piece journalism" B.S. for a second, and say that JA is anything other than an attempt to make a quick buck off star wars fans?

It's the same game as JO, a few engine tweaks and a graphical overhaul may convince some people that "it is an entirely new game" but those people are pretty damn easy to sell anything to. How did it go? "There's one born every minute?"



And that is exactly where my problem lies, if it was an entirely new game I would gladly cut them slack.

Hell, I never once complained about the bugs in JO when it came out.

JO was a major leap from jk1, this was untested technology and an untested entirely *new game.


JA is the same damn thing, and they have had over a *year to fix a lot of the bugs that are in this game because the *exact same bugs were in JO.

Do you really think I'm the only person who feels this game was a 1/2 ass rush job?

Just look around your own forums.

Look at all the negative/indifferent feedback this game has gotten, both from users and reviews.

It was a sloppy, untested, rushed release, and the "we did not have enough time" excuse is a load of crap.

The game was built right off of the predecessor and it has been around for a year and a half now.


Why did it have to be out in September?

I'll let you figure that one out, but if anyone needs help it has something to do with a little game called Halo and this little game called Half-Life 2 that was supposed to be released at the end of September.


You people may have lower standards in regards to consumer products, but I donít.

Be it a 49.99 game or a 49,000.00 car, if people hand over their money and never demand a better quality of product and gladly pay for sub standard quality merchandise, do you really think there will be a lot of money invested by the manufactures of said products to increase the quality of their merchandise?

Iíve worked in big business around 10 years now, and I can honestly assure you, based on my personal experience, that if some dimwit is perfectly willing to hand you his hard earned cash for a lump of turds, no company is going to cut into their profit margin just to make a better quality turd.

FK | unnamed
10-14-2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by Emon
You know, if you don't like it, you don't have to play it. And you especially don't have to post here. Threads like this aren't needed.

Yeah so let's all sit here and giggle like little school girls and bow to the mighty gods who bless us by taking our money in exchange for their blessed products.

And let's all write fluff piece reviews; no matter how flawed the product is.

Letís never hold any company up to any standards of quality control.

Letís just gladly fork over our money for anything that is tossed our way.

I mean seriously, have any of you ever had real world experience in running a business that directly manufactures a product or provides a unique service?

If any of you did you would understand the basic way business works.

Your core goal is put out said product/service and cut as many corners as possible to save production/development/overhead expenses.

If said customers do not buy your product for the sole reason that they are dissatisfied with the quality of the product/service (note I said sole reason, I'm not talking about poor marketing, over saturation of the product etc.) your only option is to increase the quality of that product.

Consumers today simply do not hold the providers of goods and services up any level of standards like they did many years ago.

And if no one points out the flaws, and people donít give it the justifiable indifferent/bad reviews it deserves, and people never speak up, do you think anything will ever get fixed, or better yet, do you think a higher quality of product will land in your lap next time?


You people want to sit here like sheep and go ďbaaah baaah gimme star wars baaah baaah any star wars is good just gimme star wars baah baaahĒ

Go ahead, those of us who have a higher quality of taste and standards in regards to the things we purchase will have more than enough back bone to speak up for you people.


But I know this is going to fly right over most of your heads.

And despite the fact that Iím not sitting here saying things like ďRaven sucksĒ that is how most of you knee jerk reaction types with low attention spans will read it.

So yes, I am ďbasing RavenĒ and no I am not just doing what many paying customers who are dissatisfied with a product, do throughout the global consumer market, Iím not trying to get a higher quality of standards implemented from the people who take our money to make these games.




:rolleyes:

Emon
10-14-2003, 04:36 AM
Eh, I wasn't talking about you, but if you feel so cheated, you can always take it back. Sitting here and talking about how much you dislike it or parts of it isn't going to make it any better.

FK | unnamed
10-14-2003, 04:39 AM
patches come when people point out problems, it's a universal trend in the gaming business, pure and simple.

Game/software patching is a simple cost effective way to keep the consumers happy and get them to be returning customers.

Itís a hell of a lot easier and cheaper than putting out an updated retail release.

Id wants you to buy Quake 4, Valve wants you to buy HL2, so if they keep the customers who are playing Quake 3 and HL happy, those customers, for the most part will be returning customers.



games with flaws can be easily fixed with patches, hence the reason so many of us came here to voice our opinions...

and the reason it is still being brought up is we either want some type of official word on a patch and it's content or we want the SDK released so we can fix it ourselves.

Andy867
10-14-2003, 04:43 AM
But the problem is unnamed, is that with Jedi Academy, they were able to use what worked and fine tweak it due to the majority of what the fans wanted, whereas going to a new engine for a standalone sequel would have been yet another test run for Raven developers, in which it would take awhile before programmers, mappers, coders and modellers would be able to further understand the game engine physics and tweak it.. So by going with the same engine, but heavily modifying it and adding new features of their own, they were able to go with the options that they felt the community would want and some new ideas. so if the majority dictated dual sabers and a saberstaff for MP and SP, they implemented it using their past experience, although there really wasnt much to go on since Jedi Outcast didnt have dual sabers by default, and to do deal with the comprising and balancing that along with the saberstaff and solo saber made it a challenge. And if Raven had gone to a new game engine, it probably would have been another year at least before LucasArts would approve of it being in a polished state. So if anything, give lucasarts a ring and let them know your concerns, Because I am sure Raven wished they did have more time to fine-tune the settings and include more things, but in order to get it into the polished state that LucasArts dictated for a Fall release, they had to cut back on some things that they wouldnt have done otherwise.


But be rest assured that if Raven is contracted for another Jedi game, it probably wont be until much after Q1 of 2005, because it has been said by some at Raven in interviews that Academy is the last Jedi Knight game that they will be doing on the Quake 3 Team Arena engine. Which engine they will go on from there is uncertain, but a lot of people who know a lot of game engine features and capabilities have asked for the UT2k3/UT2k4 engine, as well as the FarCry engine from some of the l33t modders of the community.

FK | unnamed
10-14-2003, 04:59 AM
I know all about cutting corners in business, it's what I have done for a living for almost the last ten years.

I have 0, yes 0 problem with them recycling the JO engine/game.

JO was a great game and I would gladly hand over my money for "more of the same".


Where my problem lies Andy, is that the flaws are not major issues that typically arise in retail games, they are those minor inexcusable things that should have been corrected before the game was released.

Invisible models?

That was a screw up they made over a year and a half ago in JO.

Would it have taken that much time to just do a quick check and see if there were any models that should not be accessible in MP?

The rocket bug?
The one hit kill kick and one hit kill lightning bug?

The erratic hit detection?


These are things that players found *minutes after installing the game.



Have you ever bought a new car Andy?

Go to a dealership, finance the vehicle, cut a check for your down payment and then as you get in it to drive it off the lot, have the rear view mirror fall off and hit you in the head when you shut the door.

You think most people will just say "oh well, it's only 50 grand I can just glue it back on".


Simple, quality control. If you let the "little things" slide, they never get taken care of.



Now you say, why come here to voice these complaints?

Look at it like this:

You go to Burger king and the burger is raw meat, they donít even cook it.

A week later you go back and itís the same deal.

You can:

Call the manager/company hot line, get blown off and have nothing done to rectify the problem.

Or

You can contact your local news station, and when they run a story on the 10:00 news about a restaurant serving people raw meat, which do you think will rectify the problem faster?

These forums are just that, a place where both players (and potential new customers) and the devs come to see what people are saying about the game.

No one wanted all of the negative feedback JO was getting back in the day, so they authorized those two patches.

I donít agree with all of the patch content, but that is not the point Iím trying to make.

Bad reviews on behalf of the people playing the game will lead to only two things:

A shortage of returning customers.

Possible lost sales from potential new customers.

No one wants that, so a good idea would be????

Fix the product flaws, make people happy and keep your returning customers and let their positive reviews help influence the new ones.

See how simple it is?

Kurgan
10-14-2003, 06:57 AM
You guys both make good points.

Yes, there is a place for "negative feedback" (I prefer constructive criticism myself of course, since not everyone to bashes Raven has a point, and not everyone who bashes the game does it because of bugs that can be fixed easily).

And yes, Raven was limited by what LA let them do within the time frame of doing a liscensed game through them, so they can't share all the blame.


Nobody is stopping people from doing either of the following. Emon expressed his opinion and others expressed their's.

So somebody might want to cuss at Raven because they don't like the color of Jaden's boots, that's just silly.

And it is hard for them to make a decision though when you have a third of the people saying "Feature X sucks change it to Y!" another third saying "Feature X sucks, change it to Z!" and another third saying "Feature X rules, if you change it, it will suck!"

Another person may critique Raven's programming by pointing out a genuine exploit in the game (in which case they should send in the bug report rather than just generically swear at them or something).

And people who object to the excessive bashing Raven has recieved lately aren't necessarily Star Wars fanboys either.

I am sick of the bashing and I hate most of the Star Wars games ever made (or consider them mediocre). I'm a fan, but not a fanboy. There's a difference...

Bashing doesn't accomplish anything, pointing out bugs and constructive criticism can and that's what I try to encourage.


All we ask of people is that they express their views in a mature and civilized fashion. Not only will you look smarter, you may even get more people to listen to you!

KaiaSowapit
10-14-2003, 07:17 AM
I don't have a problem with anyone criticizing the game or using these forums to do so, so long as they do it in a relatively mature, thoughtful way and understand the difference between opinion and indisputable bugs.

For example, the issue with the Master Server listing and most of us with legitimate retail copies of the game only being able to see about a dozen or so MP servers offered online, THAT is a bug. Not caring for Tavion's latest hair style or the damage scaling of red dfa, that's a matter of opinion.

I'm not saying one is more significant than the other; just appreciate that there's a difference.

IMHO, Raven/LucasArts will best serve its customer base if they focus on the less subjective matters first and foremost in any potential fix/patch.

FK | unnamed
10-14-2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by KaiaSowapit
I don't have a problem with anyone criticizing the game or using these forums to do so, so long as they do it in a relatively mature, thoughtful way and understand the difference between opinion and indisputable bugs.

For example, the issue with the Master Server listing and most of us with legitimate retail copies of the game only being able to see about a dozen or so MP servers offered online, THAT is a bug. Not caring for Tavion's latest hair style or the damage scaling of red dfa, that's a matter of opinion.

I'm not saying one is more significant than the other; just appreciate that there's a difference.

IMHO, Raven/LucasArts will best serve its customer base if they focus on the less subjective matters first and foremost in any potential fix/patch.

Yes, but the same level of civility needs to be upheld by the people who disagree with the people who take issues with this game.

I'm not sitting here going <fornicate> Raven, they suck! so if certain people would focus more on the content of the things people like myself are saying, rather than just trying to start arguments with the individuals saying them, things would be much more civil around here.

Like I said, we are not here to argue or anger anyone, we have issues with this release, we would like them addressed, and we know this is a vessel that occupies the attention of those who can address them.

But certain individuals here, although very limited in numbers, seem to only want to argue with people for the sole sake of arguing.

It gets frustrating having to deal with these narrow minded individuals and hence, tempers flare after a while.

None of that ^ was directed at you, it was just a generalization.


And yes I do agree with what you say about the serious problems taking the forefront in patch priority.

The master list issue is without a doubt the #1 concern.

The actual game play bugs like the random 1 hit kill kicks are also high on the list.

When you get into game play issues, rather than sit here and argue all day if things like the double tap kick should be brought back, a simple and easy solution would be to put the option for it as a server console cvar.

Those servers that want it are happy, those servers that donít are happy.

StormHammer
10-14-2003, 03:03 PM
Oh well. I guess I should have looked into this thread sooner, because now a Force Long Post is unavoidable in light of the many replies. Hold onto your pantyhose...

Originally posted by Ionio
I know i'll get flamed for this but I don't think JA is anywhere near as good as JK2. Ok it has some nice new moves and rancors, but JK2 had a better story, better designed levels. Considering that JK2 is 18 months old JA just hasn't got enough to offer.

Now, in an overall sense, I can see where you are coming from, and I am inclined to agree to an extent.

The storyline in JK2 did seem to have a more cohesive plot, and a greater sense of purpose, I agree. But even JK2 was flawed, and in my view, did not quite measure up to the compelling plot of the original Jedi Knight. Although the 'choose a mission' format for JA was very welcome, as I've stated before, I think they attempted to do too much with it. By trying to cover all the bases, and offer a wider variety of locations and scenarios, it became a bit of a 'Jack of all trades and master of none'. That's not to say it was inherently 'rubbish' - far from it. However, it certainly did not match up to it's obvious potential. The sub-plots could have been far better developed, each of the choosable missions could have had 2 or 3 levels to them to make them longer (like the core missions, which worked far better IMHO), and far more elements of the story itself could have been available as 'clues' that you discover in the levels, rather the 'talking heads' force-feeding you plot devices at the beginning and end of each mission. This sense of 'discovery' was sadly lacking, and I think JA is a poorer game for it.

The other aspect lacking in the storyline of JA is a solid background to the central character of Jaden Korr, to put that character in a better perspective. In Jedi Knight, especially, you are introduced early on to the driving force behind Kyle's motivations, by learning about more of his past, and how it will affect his future. By carrying around some emotional baggage that ties in to the existing narrative, it gives a better basis for the overarching plot. All we learn about Jaden is that he/she constructed a lightsaber, with no explanation as to why, when, and why this is actually relevant. There basically is no background to the character apart from what you might want to imagine. That's all very well from an RPG stand-point - but JA is not an RPG by any stretch of the imagination, and as such, the central character should have been properly developed.
As for level design - I think some people too readily dismiss some of the better level design in JK2. By the same token, some are too ready to dismiss the better level design in JA. The simple fact is that both games had some good and some bad level design. Both suffer from inherent linearity and 'locked door' syndrome. I never had a problem with the puzzles in Jedi Outcast, to be honest - but there were occasions when the design itself stretched credibility past the breaking point. The infamous 'Rubik's cube' puzzle on the Doomgiver, for example, was just plain silly. I also disliked the cylindrical area where there was only one 'tram' thing which gets blown up half-way around. The Nar Shadaa level was also memorable for the fact that you could see the whole level, and just worked your way around it. It didn't have the meandering feel of a 'city' that JK had (and JK suffered from the same kind of linearity, don't get me wrong).

In JA, Coruscant reminds me very much of JK2's Nar Shadaa - you can basically see the whole map again, and it all seems very confined and linear. By contrast, I think the level with the Sandcrawler was very well done.

Acceptable level design, I guess, is largely a matter of preference. Personally, I think a lot of developers could learn some great lessons by looking at games like Deus Ex, and at least attempting a more open feel, and multiple pathways to objectives. But that's just me. I can only hope that the JK series at least starts to move away from the totally linear aspect of it's level design - or at least cleverly disguises it's inherent linearity.

Multiplayer is crap, the 2 new modes become boring very quickly.

I disagree on this point. I think MP is a great blast, and I think Siege is a great game mode. The only problem with it is there are only 3 maps/scenarios to play in. However, these scenarios are large enough, and with enough objectives, to keep you busy. The Desert map especially is better in the context of providing you with a lot of options about which pathway you take to reach your objective. And you are not tied in to a linear goal progression, really, because you can choose which crystal to go for first, which droid part to take, which station to take down. This flexibility means that the defenders cannot make any assumptions about which areas to cover first - and the gameplay can at times feel like a tug of war.

As for Power Duel, I have not played it extensively, but the Duels I have played were good. It seems quite well balanced, and the single opponent is not as easy to take down as their situation might dictate. I do, however, think that the Power Duel could have been extended to include 2v2, 3v2 and 3v3 matches. Although this is possible via Team FFA, it would have suited Power Duel mode more easily, I think.

...and the acting is terrible. Jaden (male especially) sounds like a monotonous, broken, answering machine. Alora - she might as well just be another reborn. Tavion - her hairs even worse than before.

The male actor for Jaden was a little stilted, I agree, but I don't think it was quite as bad as you make out. :p The female actor for Jaden did seem a lot better though, with more inflection in her voice according to each situation.

As for Alora, I agree that she could have been developed more. She was just starting to get interesting before her untimely demise. :p However, I disagree that she could be considered 'just another reborn'. She needed more screen-time...and a bit of a background to her character. Again, it comes back to the fact that characterisation within the game was poor overall. Rosh was probably one of the better developed characters, in that you grow to dislike him, so I have to applaud Raven in making him come across as such a pain in the butt (props to the voice actor too).

As for Tavion - I saw nothing wrong with her at all. The 'costume' was fine, and the acting was okay too. It helped that she had a bit of a 'background' established in Jedi Outcast - although again, you feel as if you don't know enough about the character overall, because the depth is lacking. If you take Darth Vader as the classic example, you have the imposing presence and bearing, the no nonsense attitude in dealing with problems (grip people you don't like, for example), the fact that you've butchered hundreds or thousands of Jedi, etc. The evil aspect of the character is imparted over time by reflection on their past actions, and seeing their present actions in progress.

In a way, this is where Jedi Outcast fared better than Jedi Academy. You saw the interaction of the 'enemies' more - Tavion and Desann, Galak Fyarr, etc... You saw what they were up to, the decisions they were making, and so you had a better context when it came to fighting them. As I said before, Tavion and Alora didn't get enough screen time away from interactions with your character.

The AI is terrible, stormtroopers just stand and shoot, in JK2 they moved more.

Again, I recognise some of the parts where you may have encountered this. In parts, I also thought the Stormies (and other enemies) did not move around enough. In other parts, they did move around and presented more of a challenge. The Noghri, for example, hardly moved at all. The enemies that I remember moving around a lot were the cultists, the sandpeople, the mercs, and the jet-pack troopers - once they were triggered. And that was one of the problems, in my view. Some enemies simply didn't seem to react until you entered their 'cone of influence' - except snipers, who can smell you a mile off and start stripping you of shields and health. But yes, on the whole, I would tend to agree that there were not quite as many Stormies moving around in JA in comparison to JO. Also, in terms of AI, it seemed a bit ridiculous that some enemies would simply stand there continually shooting at you - when you could deflect all of their shots back at them. It would have been more 'realistic' (if you want to use that term) for them to give up halfway through and run for reinforcements - or switch to other tactics.

Tactics is one of the areas where the game is let down, I think. The majority of enemies seem to be 'stuck' with a particular weapon, and in light of the fact that your own character can carry around quite a selection, it would have been more realistic if an enemy switched to TD's to take you out when they realised their blaster-fire was accomplishing little against your lightsaber. In those terms, the AI is very dumb indeed. I didn't rely exclusively on the lightsaber in the game - so why should the enemies rely exclusively on blasters that are easily deflected?

The graphics are marginally better, although the concussion rifle looks stupid.

The graphics are definitely an improvement over JO, both in terms of polygons used to create the levels, and the variety of textures themselves. I was glad to see the return of the lightsabers casting light on the walls in dark areas, and the spruced-up Force power effects were also very noticeable. I think Raven achieved a great deal in terms of graphics considering the base engine with which they had to work. In my view, they've done more with the Q3 tech than a lot of other game developers using it, and so I applaud them for managing to 'tweak it to hell and back'.

The dual and staff sabers are good, but not enough to save the other aspects of the game.

Yes, it is clear the amount of effort that went into the lightsaber combat this time around - and perhaps it was, indeed, detrimental to some other aspects of the game. Personally, I didn't have a problem with the focus on lightsaber and Force powers, because it was more in keeping with the context of being a 'Jedi'. I don't think the other aspects of the game necessarily need 'saving'...but in my view there is certainly room for improvement, particularly in the 'tiered' missions. Overall, I think the game is enjoyable, from both an SP and MP perspective, and it could have been a 'great' game with some extra time and effort. The bugs and other perceived flaws are regrettable to see, and I do feel that more time (and play-testing to destruction) should be given to the development of these games.


Originally posted by bodstevens
I agree with most said. mp is crap i had high hopes for siege (ive played alot of tow for moh) but the force drain on moves, no option for jedi only siege, stuck in place during kata/specials, weak sabers, no kick or slow daown move for s/o CTF ( none is playing s/o ctf), sucky levels and ugly hilts and online servers have awful ping times all other games i play like bf1942sw all have sweet pings but ja have crappy pings....

Heh...what a rush. It's almost hard to understand what you're saying. Almost. Anyway, the whole idea behind Siege is to add more variety in terms of classes, and what you can actually do with them. Perhaps Siege is not the 'best' objective-based game mode out there when compared to other games with similar game-types. However, it's certainly nice to see it make an appearance at last in a Star Wars context. It's a dream come true for many players, and now the basic ground-rules and concepts have been established, there is plenty of scope for further development. As Kurgan said earlier, there is a 'Jedi only' Siege map in Korriban, so maybe, for some reason, you haven't got to play that yet. It certainly alters the dynamic of the gameplay. Indeed, I'd have to say that each of the three Siege scenarios presented require different tactics and strategies in order to succeed. Tying down 'tweaked' classes for each of the levels makes each one more interesting and they all present different challenges, and different ways for teams to work together. I can certainly see the wealth of effort that Raven invested into the Siege mode, and from all the matches I've played so far, it seems very balanced and great fun to play.

As for awful ping times on servers - that may be partly due to the netcode, but there are so many other factors to consider, including how clear your line connection is, other people's pings impacting server performance, the location of the server you're connecting to... The best advice is to shop around for a server where you do get acceptable pings. You can't land the entire blame for that at Raven's door - though I'm sure some tweaking of the netcode could resolve some of the issues.

As for being stuck in place to perform katas...as others have already stated, you can most certainly turn around while performing them - and in some your character steps forward while swinging. I've certainly seen this when dueling, so I don't know where you get that notion from.

The lightsaber damage can easily be altered through cvars...and it is adjusted for each game type anyway. It's possible to get one-hit kills with them too, so I can't exactly see why you claim they are 'weak'. Considering there is also location-based damage implemented, you have to pick the right spot to hit to do more damage - the head especially is more likely to give you a one-hit-kill.

It makes sense to me for some of the 'special' moves to drain Force power too. Maybe it could be tweaked slightly to not drain as much, but on the other hand, I can't say I've experienced any real problems so far. I've not had many FF duels yet...so maybe my view would change slightly in light of the 'draining' that can go on.

I've played sp a few times through its ok bit better than jo levs but still kinda boring the 3rd time...and no npc's.... damn jk1 had civilians you could help made you feel more jedi like...

Now there I have to agree with you. Although there were some NPCs in JA (like Jawas, prisoners, and droids), it still does not seem as compelling as rescuing the civilians seen in JK1. I've played other games where NPCs were used very effectively, so it's sad to see this series still has not implemented better NPC support. Play No One Lives Forever (the hotel level), play Mace Griffin:Bounty Hunter (the opening level), and others. When neutral NPCs are factored in, whom you have to protect, it can alter the gameplay dynamic quite radically. In JK1 (playing Light side), I felt compelled to stand in front of the 'civilians' and take extra damage in order to protect them. So that is certainly a major area where JA and JO alike did not go far enough. Towns and cities should be populated by 'neutral' characters, who react realistically to events as they transpire. Admittedly, not all levels should have them - but by the same token, they should appear a great deal more often than just a few specific levels.


Originally posted by Master William
About the MP maps, they truly suck. The old ones were way better. The only map I like is Vjun Sentinel (mp/ffa1)

Out of all the levels in MP, across all the game types, you only like one? You seem to be very hard to please indeed. Personally, I do think the FFA maps in particular in JA do not contribute to the 'tighter' gameplay of the JK2 FFA maps. I think a few of the FFA maps are probably a little too big - especially when there are not many players on them (Korriban, Tatooine and Rift). The gameflow is not as tight, which has led to a few 'congregation' points on those maps where most of the action takes place - and then a lot of winding corridors and 'filler' space. Bigger is not always better, although these maps work much better with 16-32 players on them. As for the Duel maps, they all seem fine to me. Some are a bit basic, and the Yavin one is a little too big (although it is more aesthetically pleasing and far better designed), but at the end of the day they fulfill the basic needs of two or three people duking it out. I've not really played CTF in JA yet, so I can't really comment on the gameflow there.

Originally posted by anonymous4
stormtrooper's voice is too static-y and i can barely listen to what theyre saying.

I didn't have a problem listening to what the Stormies were saying, except when my lightsabers were lit and I was not close enough. Extinguishing the lightsabers certainly helped by removing some 'background noise'. Otherwise the voices were just like in JO, so I don't see the problem.

Originally posted by Kurgan
JA has some flaws that JK2 seemed to avoid, for example the bot support has a lot more quirks in it (especially on a map like Vjun... or in CTF, or in Siege they simply aren't there, no waypoints).

Yes, this is one area where JA has definitely dropped the ball since it's predecessor. I don't know whether the problem is the 'size' of the maps, or simply bad waypoint management, but the bots are definitely not as good at navigating the maps. I remember starting up a Solo Duel game with some bots - and I sat for 15 minutes watching two bots running back and for in a continuous loop, without even getting close to each other. It almost became a virtual game of peek-a-boo, as one of them kept hiding behind a rock (this was the Hoth Duel map, BTW). Of course, I had to stop the game because it was going nowhere. It's simply not as 'fun' dueling or fighting the bots this time around, whereas I spent many hours fighting them in JO. The flaws in their behaviour are more noticeable if you set up a game and simply join as a spectator - and switch between all the bots in turn. Some get stuck running on the spot, and others run around in continuous circles, coming close to another bot but not attacking - just running backwards to get away.

When I then play a game like UT2K3, the bot AI in that game shines through. They never get stuck, they're always on the move, and they can be tough on the higher settings. I think it's time to give the bot support in JA a serious revamp. And yes, I agree that it would be nice to have some intelligent bots to practice against in the Siege maps.

The NG FF CTF elite thing rears its ugly head. Hey, I am trying to help you guys by suggesting solutions. Check the "Idea: How to Fix Sabers Only CTF.." thread (think it got pushed to page 2).

If that's all that's stopping you from liking JA, why don't you make a mod that puts flip kicks from JA single player into MP? Problem solved.

I think this is probably a case where any solutions offered are going to get shot down for some reason or another. Those playing this particular game type do not seem to be very receptive to any ideas other than their own, unfortunately. I think you offered up some good solutions - especially with Amidala's suggestions as well - and as you say, there is always the opportunity to develop a mod that does exactly what this faction of the community wants. Whether or not all players of the game-type can agree on a common set of principles and parameters for such a mod is something else entirely.

What SP pc game these days is fun playing over and over again? Most people will play a game through once (if they finish it at all), maybe twice if it's really good (play it on easy the first time, hard the second time or use cheats to mess around) or has multiple endings. MP is what's designed for multiple plays.

Actually, you'd be surprised. :D If the SP part of a game is good enough, and has a lot of options built in, then it can be very replayable. I've forgotten how many times I played through JK's SP campaign, trying it in first person, 3rd person, saber/Force, guns, light side, Dark side. I think JA certainly sees a return to this kind of flexibility. I've already played it through from start to finish twice. I'll no doubt do so again using slightly different parameters. And like in JO, there are some levels in particular that I can easily revisit time and time again. I remember in JO I kept loading up the 'cantina' and simply playing around fighting all the bad guys, practicing different moves and tactics for saber combat.

Having said all that, I tend to agree that MP can offer a great deal more replayability, because there's nothing quite like matching your skill against that of another player (and I am just an average player).

But to bash it and act like JK2 was far superior I think reeks of over-nostaligic hubris about that game. If you liked the storyline better or the old maps better, that's fine (and of course as pointed out you can use all the old maps in the new game, some tweaking still required, though considering the mapping tools were just released, that should be far easier very soon)...

Personally, I prefer JO SP over JA SP...but that, as you say, is just a matter of taste. Everyone has their own preferences, and it is pointless 'trashing' another game simply because it fails to achieve the goals you set for it yourself. I still find JA enjoyable...others don't. For those others, it's unfortunate you don't like the game at all, but there's sometimes the option of returning it and getting a refund, and simply replaying the game you did enjoy (JO). Game developers cannot please everyone all of the time, because there are such wide-ranging tastes and differeing views on what makes a good game.

Originally posted by Greymon
1)JA requires absolutely no brain power to play through. Not a single thing worth being called a puzzle.

Like me, you probably did not mind the puzzles in JO. A large number of other people did, and constantly complained about them, or needed a lot of help with them. I remember all too well the number of threads that sprouted up after JO's release on these boards, pleading for help with the same few puzzles. But then, JA has not been all that different. People still got 'stuck' in some places - and I think I may have stumbled on a contributing factor. The first time I installed JA, for some reason the ForceHint Cursor did not kick in at all in any of the levels. The ForceHint was actually turned off by default - and so I did find it tricky at times to work out what to do, because I didn't have a hint about what items I could use with the Force. I managed to plough through the game regardless, though. I played through the second time after having enabled it, and it was easier because the Force Hints were there. If other people have experienced the same problem, I would surely like to hear about it. And just to test that it wasn't a fluke - I've since uninstalled and reinstalled JA, and it did exactly the same thing. The ForceHint cursor was turned off by default.

Anyway, there were some puzzles in JA - just not as extensive or as tricky as those found in JO. The only one I found tedious in JO was the Doomgiver one. I would have preferred to see a few more 'environmental' puzzles in JA, but you can't have everything.

2)JA is too short. It definitely took longer to finish JO (though that was a short game as well.)

It took me 20 hours to complete JA the first time through, on Jedi Knight difficulty and playing Light Side (which is marginally more difficult than Dark Side). I find that to be an acceptable length for a game, especially in light of experiences like Unreal 2 (which took me about 9 hours to complete), Max Payne (8-9 hours), Elite Force (10 hours). I call those short games. Any game that offers me 20 hours of gameplay is what I would term a 'standard' length for an FPS. Other FPS titles like Unreal and Deus Ex took me considerably longer - and I prefer longer games.

3)Rosh, aka Darth Jar Jar.

He was designed so you wouldn't like him. If you didn't like him, then Raven succeeded admirably with his design and characterisation. Nuff said.

4)As someone else stated above, the voice acting in JA blows. It makes the acting from the movies look good.

The acting in the movies was good, IMHO. And I disagree that all of the voice acting blows in JA. The only one that stands out that could have done with more work was the male 'Jaden' voice. Other than that, the main characters were well-acted throughout. As for the 'clone' enemies - what do you expect, except some throwaway lines?

5)The story is incoherent. There's no sense of flow or consistency. Plot is barely present. And when it is it makes no sense. It's a collection of user made maps thrown into the guise of an official game.

Here I tend to agree - for the reasons I stated earlier in this post. It's er...up there somewhere. :D

6)Graphical glitches and horrible animations.

I found the animations perfectly acceptable - and a damned sight better than some other games which are stilted by comparison. As for the graphical glitches, those are partly due to bugs and partly due to incompatibilities with video card drivers. ATI is the main culprit here...but then their drivers have always had issues. On my PC at least.

7)The swoop map for one. Anyone else notice that if you dont ride on a swoop bike, suddenly you're surrounded by 10 bikers trying to ram you. It doesn't matter if you're standing against a stone wall, they'll still ram you...and they dont die from it. And thats only one of the AI bugs on that map. Even worse than trip is that Byss map....not a damn thing on that map made any sense. I'm not going to break down all the stupidity in that one but it makes the doomgiver map from JO look like a work of art. The only thing about JA sp maps is they are better looking than JO maps. But better looknig doesn't make them better.

Got to disagree here. I don't think any level in any game can get quite as bad as the Doomgiver puzzle. I thought the swoop level design was fine - and it made sense for the swoop riders to run you down and ram you if you got off your own swoop. The only couple of issues I had with that level were sometimes I'd go zooming up a mountain and fly a ridiculous distance through the air - across half the map - and during one of these escapades, I actually ended up on the other side of the building where you start - facing a locked door. So I had to reload. They should have put a 'ceiling' on that map, so that you couldn't go above a certain height.

As for Byss - and the Star Destroyer - it actually felt more like a ship to me. No massive unfilled spaces in the middle of it - which made absolutely no sense aboard the Doomgiver. It's ludicrous to waste that amount of space inside a spaceship, where I would imagine space would have to be optimised. So the Byss level actually felt tighter and better defined to me. I felt as if I was aboard a spaceship.

8)The AI is horrible. Read what I said about the swoops. There's worse than just that. How about rancors reaching through walls or reborn suicide swan diving off high places...

I already talked about AI earlier on. As far as the Rancor reaching through walls - never saw that one. Didn't happen at any time during the game when I played it. And cultists falling to their doom? Well...that actually made me laugh. They spout all the stuff they're going to do to you, and then step (or jump) off into oblivion. It made sense in some places - even the best Dark Jedi can sometimes lose their footing. So it made them a little more credible and fallible...and human, to make such a stupid error.

9)I like the JO tavion better.

I prefer JA's Tavion. ;)

10)The boss fights in JA blow. The first boss fight was such a drag. I was looknig forward to a spectacular saber fight..not a nintendo game style "jump forward attack, wait for enemy move, dodge simplistic enemy attack pattern, jump forward attack, rinse, repeat." The second fight was slightly better for the light side. The dark side final was decent but not as good as the JO boss fight.

I found the final boss fights (both Dark and Light) to be much better than the duel with Desann. For whatever reason, they took me longer to complete, and I had a better sense of satisfaction afterwards. I enjoyed both encounters with Alora (although the second encounter could have been better), and the fight with Rosh was quite challenging the first time through. But each to their own, I guess. Sorry you didn't enjoy them.


Originally posted by Syzerian
the good thing about JO is that every force power had its part in sp like some bits u would have to mind trick certain people to get them to open doors but in JA mind trick is just a niffty but useful trick to use on those cuncussion cannon firing big robot thingys then stab them to bits

I tend to agree. Some of the Force powers this time around just seemed a little 'redundant' - Mind Trick being one of them in the context you mention. The level design and situations simply did not lend itself to using this power effectively, except to trick other enemies into 'helping' you in certain places. Certainly, trying to use Mind Trick to 'sneak' past enemies was flawed. I tried it on the Sandcrawler level...and I just ended up with a Tusken army hot on my heels when the effects wore off. Needless to say that was an interesting battle. :p

also its extremly annoying when u r in a saber lock with a dueler and they throw their saber and kill u when u only have lvl 2 push and cant break the saber lock

Then use level 3 push. :p I don't see the problem. More often than not, if anyone wins a saberlock with any saber, they can kill you. That's the whole idea.

Originally posted by Aryyn
You guys have to give MP a chance to grow and it will most certainly crush JO in every aspect.

Heh...nice to see an optimistic view, although perhaps it's a little over-zealous. I do certainly think JA's MP has a lot of potential, especially in terms of the Siege mode. I do think that FFa maps need to be tighter designs with better gameflow, like JO's. The problem I can see with FFA maps so far is their larger size and 'looser' design. Hopefully, as you say, the mod community can develop some 'tighter' levels to mess around in.

Originally posted by Jahs
But, when I go onto a JA dueling server, and get my arse handed by some new kid who presses and holds attack, I don't feel very jedi-like. I don't know if this can be changed by console commands, but until I do, with the dual and doublebladed sabers, JO's mp is better than JA's.

So you're complaining that the playing field has been leveled a bit? Now place yourself in the seat of the new kid in JO, going up against a skilled player. Guess what? He gets his butt handed to him over and over and over again...and probably gets insulted for being a 'n00b' into the bargain. I don't know about you...but that doesn't sound like a great deal of fun to me. So I have no problem whatever with people using Dual Sabers, Saberstaff or Single Saber. I use all three myself - although I prefer Dual sabers. And no...before you comment...I don't just press attack and whirl around like a retarded bunny on speed. I time my attacks, and use the moves that I think will do the most damage given an opening. Yes, there are people who just mash the attack button constantly - but to be frank, we probably all started that way in the very beginning, until we started to 'learn' the game. Give the new players a break, and accept defeat without complaining about being 'lamed'. I've duelled several 'skilled' players online, and no matter what saberstyle I use, I can get my butt handed to me very easily. I consider myself an 'average' player. The new saber combat is largely about timing attacks and perfecting evasion from counter-attacks.

Originally posted by KaiaSowapit
Personally, I celebrate the day ffa_bespin is eradicated from memory.

Academy's maps are a quantum leap improvement. Better architecture, better lighting, better texture... heck if nothing else they're just plain BIGGER.

As I stated above, biggerisn't necessarily better. I think the gameflow, especially on the FFA maps for JA, is 'looser' than that for the maps in JO. ffa_bespin is actually a good example of a map with proper gameflow. The bots never got stuck on that level, and even when I played it online, everyone used every part of that map to fight in. Now when I play the JA FFA maps, I'm finding that most people are simple congregating in a few areas to fight - and the rest of the time you are running along the corridors just to get to those congregation points. In other words, the gameflow for the maps has been lost due to their sheer scale. The best FFA maps are Vjun and Taspir, in my view. I can spend a lot of time simply wandering around the other maps looking for someone to fight. Incidentally, most of the 'congregation' points are where most of the large shields and health packs are to be found. Frankly, maps like Tatooine could simply be split down the middle into two separate maps, and they would work a lot better, in my view.

Originally posted by Greymon
What bothered me was the lack of direction and sense of purpose to the missions. The goal of the cult was to resurrect Ragnos, so why the hell do they try to destroy a rail on Corellia, release a rancor in a spaceport, blow up Bakura, etc...These had nothing to do with their goal of resurrecting Ragnos!

You have a good point - and as I said before, I agree with a lot of the flaws in the 'plot'. It would have been better if most of the 'mini-missions' had nothing to do with the cult at all - or had been more carefully thought out in relation to the over-arching 'theme' of the story.

Lets see: the uber-powerful Jedi Master Katarn and his best student are sitting perfectly still...in space...trying to sense....stuff. Yet they manage not to sense the imperial dreadnought that parks right above them? ...yada yada snip... So Kyle tells Jaden to destroy the Ties so they dont destroy the dreadnought that Kyle himself is trying to destroy!!!

Again, I agree. The 'plot' for that level didn't make sense. The design of the ship did, but not the storyline. I too wondered why there was not an army of Stormies waiting to ambush me when I stepped off the Raven's Claw. There are some basic flaws in logic, and a lack of depth to most of the mini-missions. The concept was good, but the execution was not so good, and it detracts from the rest of the game. The core missions were far better designed and executed, IMHO (Hoth, Vjun, Taspir and Korriban), while only a few of the choosable missions made sense and had a proper context.

Oh tell me about it...I still hate how slow blaster shots travel. I do remember some frustrating fights with a stormtrooper who ran circles around me taunting me while I blasted every wall, floor, and ceiling in kejim outpost until I ran outta ammo....but thats not AI and its still bad in JA.

The movement of the Stormies in that level was absolutely fine. It was the speed of the blaster bolts that was, quite frankly, stupid. And sadly it has not really changed in JA. There is something wrong when you can sidestep a blaster bolt from (in game terms) ten paces away. Jedi Knight actually handled it far better - the speed of the bolts was better, and the blocking speed with the saber was much faster in order to compensate.

Where in the JA materials does Raven tell us how to change this stuff? In fact, absent an extremely rare post on a forum, Raven hasn't said much of anything about MP. Yes, it IS Raven's fault. If they really intended the average disgruntled fan to customize, why didn't they make it more user friendly? They could have listed all these commands somewhere and explained what they did. Hell, they could've made a user interface to adjust these.

Again, I have to agree. The lack of information on console commands always leads to people constantly asking about them on the forums, and having to hunt down sometimes obscure lists from websites in order to try and understand them. It would make far more sense for a complete list (or at least a list of the most common commands likely to be used) with explanations to be included in either the game manual, or as a .pdf or .doc file on the game CDs. Having a proper utility for server setup/configuration, and a more comprehensive client-side server browser listing all of the possible variations used by a server (with easy links to 'explanations' of what they actually mean) would go a long way to removing some of the arcane mystery around this kind of thing. Unreal Tournament's interface is far more user friendly when it comes to selecting MP options, for example.

So lets judge JA by its community...1) a bunch of unhappy people who realize mp sucks, 2) people who will defend JA to the death, without any thought on the merits of it, because it says Star Wars on the box, and 3) a bunch of button mashers running around (slowly) talking about how "1337" they are and how much they "pwn j00".

And here we have your opinion of the community. Which is not necessarily correct, and almost certainly not representative of the whole. The 'bunch of unhappy people' may not like MP, and that's their prerogative. It doesn't mean they are 100% right in their reasoning or view, however. As for point number (2), I think that's a bit unwarranted. Just because people may not share your view of the game, does not instantly make them wrong in their own judgement. Everyone is free to make their own judgement, form their own opinion, and decide whether they like a game or not. I'm a Star Wars fan - but I'm also a long-term gamer, and I will judge every game by it's merits - and drawbacks. As I've indicated time and again, I can see a lot of flaws and room for improvement in JA...but at the same time I can see the places where it really shines and realises it's potential. As a result, I take a more balanced view. At no point, however, would I ridicule anyone for holding a different opinion to my own. As for point number (3), I can't say I've encountered a great deal of that.

StormHammer
10-14-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by FK|unnamed
for a game that has been out three weeks dude, the # of people playing it is just plain sad.

Oh, come now. We all know the reason for that. The in-game server browser is broken/bugged/flawed, whatever you want to call it - and most people will rely on that, rather than use a third-party server browser. It is obvious that most people trying to join an online MP game are going to try and use the server browser that comes with the damned game. This is very much Raven's fault, and I sincerely hope they are addressing this issue as part of a patch. Once it's fixed, I imagine there will be a great many more people playing. Just as an example - look at how many people have made threads on this board complaining about the low numbers of servers available - and I've lost count of the number of people I've helped in the IRC channel concerning the same issue.

Anyway, as regards your other comments - you don't have to be so abrasive or 'talk down' to other members here. You can't make a basic assumption that you are the only one 'in business' or who understands the 'business ethic'. I can assure you, many others do, including myself. Just because certain people might like the game is no excuse to ridicule them as 'fanboys' or label them as 'Star Wars geeks'. Those are, quite frankly, immature arguments against other people voicing their own opinions on this forum. Feel free to disagree all you want, but you can at least do so with a certain civility, and be less assuming of how other people lead their lives, or how they may understand the fundamental principles of business.

In light of the issues you raised in that regard, yes, I agree. It makes more economical sense to keep the customers happy, and to save costs wherever you possibly can. By the same token, you are more likely to listen to a majority of your customer base when addressing potential issues. If the vocal few are experiencing problems, and see there are major issues that need to be fixed, it doesn't mean a damned thing if they only form 2% of your customer base. There's another old saying, "You can't please everyone all of the time". Nor will companies try, because it doesn't make economical sense to alter a product based on the feedback of a minority. If 20% of your customers raise a legitimate issue, then you realise you've got a problem.

So I agree that discussions forums such as these are an ideal place to air your views, and even try to garner support to your cause. However, you don't do your own campaign much good if you rub other members up the wrong way. Offering constructive criticism, and giving detailed explanations of perceived flaws in the execution of the game's development (including obvious bugs and errors) is sure to attract a better response from both forum members and developers alike.

The bottom line is this - Raven and Lucasarts did not set out to make a bad game. No company or organisation worth it's salt sets out to make a flawed product, because you'll only have to deal with the issue later on down the line, or face bankruptcy. So yes, it makes sense for a patch to be released for the game - but in my view that patch should first focus on obvious bugs that are preventing customers from enjoying the product. We all have opinions about what constitutes a better quality product, right down to the particular shaded of blue used for a saber blade - but those are essentially user preferences rather than actual gameplay issues.

I can only recommend that you detail all of the true 'bugs' that you have discovered in the game, and add them to the growing list in the 'bugs' thread. If need be, I'll go through that entire thread myself and condense the information contained therein into a more usable format for the developers. One thing is for certain though - when it comes to user 'preferences', those will be largely ignored.

And I guess I've said enough, for now. Happy reading. :p

KaiaSowapit
10-14-2003, 04:26 PM
As I stated above, bigger isn't necessarily better. I think the gameflow, especially on the FFA maps for JA, is 'looser' than that for the maps in JO.

Heh, just goes to show you how subjective opinions are. All the reasons (excluding the bot routing) you dislike Academy's maps are precisely why I like em! :)

All the more reason I hope if Raven rushes us out a patch... I hope it has more to do with honest to goodness bugs than altering game play mechanics.

DeathStriker
10-18-2003, 02:33 PM
I think that JA and JO are both good in there own different ways. At the moment i like JA better because it is new, but when i get bored of it i will probably go back to JO. The one thing that annoys me about JA is when i am saber fighting (in a duel or otherwise) sometimes, my saber goes straight through someones body and dosent do any damage at all. Do you think raven will be able to fix this in a patch maybe?







:lsduel:

ChaosDragon
10-18-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by DeathStriker
I think that JA and JO are both good in there own different ways. At the moment i like JA better because it is new, but when i get bored of it i will probably go back to JO. The one thing that annoys me about JA is when i am saber fighting (in a duel or otherwise) sometimes, my saber goes straight through someones body and dosent do any damage at all. Do you think raven will be able to fix this in a patch maybe?


Actually you can fix that if you want. You need to look in the customization thread for how to turn on sabermorerealistic. If it is set to 3 then contact with a saber does damage, as I think it should.

ManaMana
10-18-2003, 06:51 PM
Hmmm... Have the patch come out yet?:p

People, people, don't give critisism to the game before the patch... It might be nice... ;);):p :p :D :D