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View Full Version : Jedi Knight Game in the New Jedi Order, anyone?


Master_Keralys
10-13-2003, 04:29 PM
I personally think setting a Jedi in the New Jedi Order would rock. It would be a lot more challenging: the only really powerful Force Powers would be speed and protection: the rest don't work against Vong. Totally new story. New Jedi. New worlds, and definitely on a new game engine. Comments?

Kurgan
10-13-2003, 08:49 PM
Force immunity would be silly.

Either they'd make all your powers useless or they'd have to give you new powers that would work (like the old JK1 Force Throw to toss objects at them), meaning their "immunity" would be pointless and they'd be just regular generic enemies.

Personally I don't see why the Vong are so 'cool'... they remind me more of Star Trek villians (like Species 8472 from Voyager) than something that is a part of Star Wars, and certainly not somebody who could take over multiple galaxies and cause trouble for the New Republic/Jedi.

Can't say about the rest of the NJO stuff since I haven't read the books. I just hear that (from what people tell me) about half the books are pretty crappy, so the fans are divided over whether they are really worth it (plus there's a ton of them... it's not the usual three book cycle that you can read fairly quickly to get the full story).

Pedro The Hutt
10-13-2003, 09:02 PM
Personally , if I were to make a game that takes place 30 years after ANH I'd just improvise something and ignore the Vong situation, for one too little gamers know about them, and like Kurgan said, opinions are very devided on them.

So..... nah.

JediLurker
10-14-2003, 01:59 AM
I agree with Kurgan and Pedro. Not a good idea.

I strongly agree that the Vong are really stretching it as SW villains, and have no place in a game about jedi. From what little I know about the whole NJO thing, Vong are force immune and their armor is lightsaber resistant. So basically, take the lightsaber and the force powers out of JA and there's your NJO game. No thanks.

StormHammer
10-14-2003, 02:17 AM
I already stated in the other thread that I think it's a bad idea. If you can't use Force powers or lightsabers effectively against your enemies, then it make the whole notion of being a Jedi pretty much redundant. The only reason to use Force Speed is to get away from them as fast as possible. I just can't see much 'fun' in a game based on around the Vong.

And I agree that they seem more like Star Trek than Star Wars. I pretty much stopped reading the EU novels after the NJO series started, because I thought it was starting to get a bit silly. If you're a fan of the series, props to you. Whatever floats your boat. But not everyone is a fan of the series.

Prime
10-14-2003, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer
I already stated in the other thread that I think it's a bad idea. If you can't use Force powers or lightsabers effectively against your enemies, then it make the whole notion of being a Jedi pretty much redundant. The only reason to use Force Speed is to get away from them as fast as possible. I just can't see much 'fun' in a game based on around the Vong.

And I agree that they seem more like Star Trek than Star Wars. I pretty much stopped reading the EU novels after the NJO series started, because I thought it was starting to get a bit silly. If you're a fan of the series, props to you. Whatever floats your boat. But not everyone is a fan of the series. You sum it up quite well StormHammer. Star Wars is not science fiction. IMO, biotechnology and all the Vong stuff doesn't really fit into science fantasy. But that is all a matter of opinion.

Ultimately, it would be a silly move for Lucasarts to make such a game because:

Number of Star Wars fans > Number of SW EU fans > Number of NJO fans.

Why would they want to make a game with a more limited audience? If they make the sort of games they are now, they reach both the hardcore and casual fan. Remember, the majority of Star Wars fans have never read/heard of the NJO. Many people who pick up the game because it had Star Wars on the cover would be wondering where all the stormtroopers were and why their force powers didn't do anything.

masterofmayhem
10-14-2003, 08:43 AM
I actually think it would be pretty cool. Of course i happen to be a fan of the NJO books so that helps...

As far as not having enemies to use any force powers on, the 'Peace Brigade' (mercenaries etc who want to hand all the Jedi over to the Vong) could make up quite a bit of the enemy roster. There are also the alien planets they visit where the locals turn out to be hostile that they can use force powers on.

As far as the Yuuzahn Vong go, they have a slave race of lizard like creatures they kind of use like infantry who you could use force powers on. Also, the lesser Vong can be beaten with a lightsaber rather easily.

I think if they focussed more on the Peace briagde, lizard things and the weaker Vong as enemies it would be pretty cool.

The harder Vong would actually be quite a challenge as it would be more up to your dueling skills. Their fighting staffs (living creatures called Amphistaffs) can be sword like or whip like and spit poison so they would be a really cool opponent. And adding the force power of throwing stuff at them would be awesome.

So i think the game could be pulled off quite easily. As far as casual fans not really knowing what is going on, all of the stories from the Jedi Knight games are new so why couldn't people pick up on the NJO stories from the game?

idontlikegeorge
10-14-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by masterofmayhem
So i think the game could be pulled off quite easily. As far as casual fans not really knowing what is going on, all of the stories from the Jedi Knight games are new so why couldn't people pick up on the NJO stories from the game?

For one thing, the Jedi Knight series games are pretty basic, almost cliche' in a way - and they are all self-contained stories: you don't need to read any EU to know what's going on, although it helps understand some of the specifics of the environment.

Whereas, a game based on the NJO series, would for one: need to be relative to that book series, which not everyone can relate to; and it would limit the storyline of the game - it would force it into continuity within that series of books.

But with the current series, and the self-contained story in each game, they can fit in between already established EU timelines and such.

I also don't like the NJO series, or the Vong as enemies. It feels pretty apocryphal to me, not very Star Wars like.

I mean, people were bitching so much about midichlorians, and I felt those took away from the whole mysticism of the Force, but the Vong are even worse. I mean, they are completely seperate from the Force! Atleast the yslamiri are still relative to the Force, but the Vong aren't affected with a lack of or presence of the Force.

I think that really takes out of the whole Star Wars universe. That's why I don't even consider the NJO to have "happened" within the timelines of the SW universe.

Astrotoy7
10-14-2003, 11:08 AM
This has come up numerous times now..... As much as I love EU, and the NJO, I just dont see the Vong working in a game like this, particularly with the q3 engine..... maybe in something like the context of Republic commando, where it can be more of an issue of strategy rather than swinging a saber...who knows, its a curly one for developers.....

Also, re- what "idontlikegeorge" said
That's why I don't even consider the NJO to have "happened" within the timelines of the SW universe.

If you dont like EU, that's always a personal preference of course.

However, NJO is as canon as you'll get in the EU... The decision to kill off chewie and anakin came form GL himself,(as stated in interviews on the official SW site)

I personally love EU, and the NJO is an amazing achievement of planning and storytelling, considering its a 19+ book story arc....

To each their own I guess... :)

MTFBWYA

Pedro The Hutt
10-14-2003, 11:43 AM
I love the EU up to the point where the NJO begins XD

Kurgan
10-14-2003, 01:18 PM
Star Wars is not science fiction. IMO, biotechnology and all the Vong stuff doesn't really fit into science fantasy. But that is all a matter of opinion.

I beg to differ, Star Wars may be fantasy, but it's also definately Science Fiction.

Since when is Star Trek the only "sci fi" out there (or, as some assume, the standard by which to measure all of sci fi)? There's at least as much fantasy in Trek as there is in Star Wars. I think some people are assuming that "technobabble = sci fi," it doesn't.

Biotechnology is just one of the goofier and less believable parts of sci fi (think about it... soft squishy living tissue that's superior to titanium steel and high energy lasers? yeah whatever... if the Vong were real, 21st century chemical & nuclear weapons would make mincemeat of them).

Otherwise I agree.

As far as the EU canon, I could care less. Lucas approves all of it, but I highly doubt he actually reads it (except in the most general vague sense, signing on the dotted line). Remember he approved the Glove of Darth Vader and other nonesense, but then, he also invented Jar Jar Binks and the Star Wars Holiday Special, so even ol' George makes mistakes. ; )

With all the stuff that does get the SW logo on it these days, I'd hate to see the stuff that got rejected!

Luc Solar
10-14-2003, 01:40 PM
90% of Star Wars fans have not ever heard of the Yvuushzan Hwok.

I, like many others, think that the whole deal with Vong's is silly. It's un-star warsy and just plain sucks.

Neverhoodian
10-14-2003, 01:43 PM
I've said it before in other similar threads and I'll say it again;

I DO NOT like the NJO series.

The whole Yuzzhan Vong thing doesn't feel like Star Wars. Since when has Star Wars villians ever practiced self-mutilation in the movies?! It's clearly stated in the movies that the Force is present in EVERYTHING. The absense of the Force in the Vong is a direct contradiction to the movies and undermines the Force's influence. And what's up with killing Chewbacca? He's survived for decades fighting the Empire, (and the Corporate Sector Authority in the Han Solo books) yet he can't withstand some Forceless aliens?

It all boils down to this for me: the NJO books don't "feel" like Star Wars, they feel like generic science fiction. The magic is lost, and the wide wonderful galaxy I've known since I was a little kid after seeing Star Wars for the first time has been defiled by the series. Consequently, I don't believe the NJO series ever took place. Ever.

However, if you want to believe in the NJO series, good for you, I won't stop you.

On a more practical reason why the NJO series shouldn't become a Star Wars game is that many people have never read the NJO series, and the Yuzzhan Vong would be unfamiliar and strange for them, thus alienating many gamers. (much as the series has divided the Star Wars community)

epikon
10-14-2003, 01:49 PM
as a matter of fact me and someone else are making NJO maps only 4 in total

CountTyranus
10-14-2003, 02:18 PM
I've already started a NJO Mod for Jedi Academy... you can read about it here:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=110609&goto=newpost

Prime
10-14-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by masterofmayhem
As far as casual fans not really knowing what is going on, all of the stories from the Jedi Knight games are new so why couldn't people pick up on the NJO stories from the game? But the difference is that the vast majority of elements in the Jedi Knight stories can be found in the movies. Dark jedi, stormtroopers, crimelords, recognizable alien species, familiar worlds, and familiar (and SW feasible) weapons. The Vong replaces much that is familiar from the movies, and so is a much bigger leap for the casual fan.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I beg to differ, Star Wars may be fantasy, but it's also definately Science Fiction. Certainly finding a suitable definition of what is science fiction is likely impossible, IMO Star Wars is much more fantasy than science fiction. Here are some definitions that reflect how I view Science Fiction:

SCIENCE FICTION. Abbr. sf: Fiction in which scientific discoveries and developments form an element of plot or background; especially a work of fiction based on prediction of future scientific possibilities.
-The American Heritage Dictionary

Science fiction is a branch of fantasy identifiable by the fact that it eases the "willing suspension of disbelief" on the part of its readers by utilizing an atmosphere of scientific credibility for its imaginative speculations in physical science, space, time, social science, and philosophy.
-Sam Moskowitz

Science fiction is really sociological studies of the future, things that the writer believes are going to happen by putting two and two
together.
-Ray Bradbury

Science fiction is story-telling, usually imaginative as distinct from realistic fiction, which poses the effects of current or
extrapolated scientific discoveries, or a single discovery, on the behavior of individuals of society.
-John Boyd

Science Fiction: fiction based on rational speculation regarding the human experience of science and its resultant technologies.
-Reginald Bretnor

As far as these definitions go, I think it can be argued that Star Wars does not fit too well. Star Wars is not "a work of fiction based on prediction of future scientific possibilities." The technology in Star Wars is merely the background, and has very little effect on what the story is actually about. SW makes no real attempt to present a universe that may one day be possible (without getting into the "long time ago" stuff) :D

It does not "ease the 'willing suspension of disbelief' on the part of its readers by utilizing an atmosphere of scientific credibility for its imaginative speculations." Again, the "science" aspects of Star Wars are not used to give the story credibility. In fact Star Wars relies much more on very traditional fantasy elements, such as pricesses (for rescuing at whatnot), knights, magic, pure good and evil, and so on. At least for the story aspect, IMO Star Wars does not really use science as the basis for the story.

It certainly does not "pose the effects of current or extrapolated scientific discoveries, or a single discovery, on the behavior of individuals of society." Star Wars is not looking at all at how science affects the human condition. It's storyline is much more fantasy driven. Star Trek is but one example of a story that sometimes looks at how mankind might end up and how science affect the way we are (or will be). Star Trek has often looked at social issues that are relavent today and how they are affected by science, or how human issues affect the use of science. Star Wars does not really deal with anything like that.

Now, I'm not writing all this to say I'm right and you are wrong. There must be just as many definitions about science fiction that support your view, like the one below:

Science fiction is what you find on the shelves in the library marked science fiction.
-George Hay

Just kidding :D I'm just trying to show you where I am coming from and why I classify Star Wars as science fantasy and not science fiction.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Since when is Star Trek the only "sci fi" out there (or, as some assume, the standard by which tomeasure all of sci fi)? There's at least as much fantasy in Trek as there is in Star Wars. I never said anything about Star Trek in my original post, and I don't really hold it as a "standard." But I feel that Star Trek is much more science fiction than fantasy, because many of its stories are aided by explanations of what science/technology is doing and how it does it, as well as commenting on how it affects humanity. Star Wars does much less (if any) of this.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I think some people are assuming that "technobabble = sci fi," it doesn't. I agree. In my view how and for what purpose the technobabble is used to tell the story has more of an effect on whether a story is science fiction or not. You may or may not agree with this view.

But in a similar vein, "spaceships and lasers != science fiction". :) Really, the stories in Star Wars could be translated to midieval/ancient settings without much effort.

As far as the Vong go, I will conceed that biotechnology is not the sole property of science fiction. But it is much more common in what I view as science fiction, and much less so in fantasy. Because of this, the Vong come across to me as sort of a poor hack plot device to really alter the Star Wars mythos in an attempt to make it interesting. I guess my biggest beef with the Vong is that I do not consider such a radical departure from traditional Star Wars stories necessary. The galaxy is a huge place, and there is a lot of room for stories that are just as fun and interesting as the originals. I don't consider big galaxy-threatening stories necessary every time. Smaller scale events and characters can be just as interesting, and can provide writers with just as much freedom.

Whew. Well that's my take :D

Tesla
10-14-2003, 03:03 PM
If they are to make a game series based on NJO, then i think that they'll slap a New Jedi Order title instead of Jedi Knight, because that way us Jedi Knight & True Star Wars fans, can enjoy our True Jedi Knight game, and those who like the crappy, imatation, NJO series can enjoy that. :D

The Count
10-14-2003, 05:21 PM
:rolleyes:

Master_Keralys
10-14-2003, 08:11 PM
I can understand why a lot of people dislike the NJO. I've had my own beefs with it; killing Anakin was about the dumbest thing anyone could have done. It's also had such tragedies as Dark Journey, the worst SW book ever written. No offense to Cunningham, but that one was just plain lousy.

On the other hand, it's had its bright moments (Traitor, for example, which gave us Matt Stover, the best SW author ever). And that the characters aren't invincible, etc.

I think a game in the setting would be perfect. You wouldn't have to overload the gamer with stuff he's never heard of before all at once. Think of how JA slowly introduced the cult. And how those familiar with the EU would pick up on certain references and whatnot, but they weren't critical. A similar set of devices could be used for an NJO game.

I'd actually like to see a combo of the playing styles of JA and JK2. You choose a character - less well known, but still familiar in the genre - and the story changes on that. Not on how your outfit looks. Don't get me wrong, I love the customizable part of JA, but it isn't nearly as important as your character's personality.

As far as Force powers go, it would require a lot more creativity with "boss" enemies than in Academy or Outcast, where you could just throw them around with Grip or blast them with Lightning. Those would work just fine on less baddies, but when you're up against a tough Vong, you have to be good with the saber.

And as far as "resisting lightsabers" goes, does anyone remember shadowtroopers? Or how about "Cortosis Armor" (which is a load of balogna, but that's a whole new thread). That actually makes things more interesting and challenging.

boinga1
10-14-2003, 08:55 PM
It can't work. It'd be very much like the Tusken Raider level in JA- hordes of enemies with melee weapons and no defense against you. It would be very "Trek-like." Anyways, there aren't a lot of places to insert a new Jedi character in the NJO timeline without contradicting the books.


P.S. What would we call it anyways? "Jedi Knight: Attack of the Strange Aliens from Another Galaxy"? ;)

Vanor
10-14-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Prime
The technology in Star Wars is merely the background, and has very little effect on what the story is actually about.

I'd dissagree. The first movie was all about the Death Star, a "technological terror". The whole plot of ANH was about destroying the Death Star. Also the droids were a major part of the storyline, not to mention the ablity to travel at FTL speeds. Tractor beams, star fighters, star ships, ect... All were a major part of the first story, and all other stories really. These elements are as much a part of the storyline of ANH as techonogly is apart of most ST shows.

SW makes no real attempt to present a universe that may one day be possible (without getting into the "long time ago" stuff) :D

A galaxy that is ruled by a "evil empire" that uses techonlogy to control it's subject planets though force, fits very well into a clasic SciFi deffention. Without technology with Empire would never of been able to maintain power. Without technology, the Old Republic would of never been founded in the first place.

Again, the "science" aspects of Star Wars are not used to give the story credibility.

Again I would dissagree. Space travel is a major theam of all the SW movies, and required for the story to make sense. FTL travel, laser weapons, droids, ect, are all centeral points of the story. The force and other magical parts are also centeral points of the story, but are not nearly as present as the technological parts are.

It certainly does not "pose the effects of current or extrapolated scientific discoveries, or a single discovery, on the behavior of individuals of society." Star Wars is not looking at all at how science affects the human condition.

I think Star Wars is very much about how technology can be used to take power, and keep it though the use of it's force. Without technology, the Empire would of had no power, the major point of it, was to do away with the 'old magic' used by the Old Republic.

Prime
10-15-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Vanor
I'd dissagree. The first movie was all about the Death Star, a "technological terror". The whole plot of ANH was about destroying the Death Star. Also the droids were a major part of the storyline, not to mention the ablity to travel at FTL speeds. Tractor beams, star fighters, star ships, ect... All were a major part of the first story, and all other stories really. These elements are as much a part of the storyline of ANH as techonogly is apart of most ST shows. I know what you are saying, but IMO these things you mention are the background I am talking about. Things like tractor beams, spaceships, droids, and so on fill out the universe, but are not what the story is actually about. No effort is made to explain how hyperspace and starships work or how they affect people of the galaxy. They are simply used as a means to get the characters around from place to place. The droids were just characters, and the fact their were droids really is irrelavent. It helps to define the characters, but the fact that they are droids doesn't affect the outcome of the story. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Originally posted by Vanor
A galaxy that is ruled by a "evil empire" that uses techonlogy to control it's subject planets though force, fits very well into a clasic SciFi deffention. Without technology with Empire would never of been able to maintain power. Without technology, the Old Republic would of never been founded in the first place. But the Empire doesn't rule because of technology. Hell, the rebels had X-Wings, B-Wings, and A-Wings which were all superior technologically compared to Tie Fighters. The Empire maintained control because the Emperor had taken control politically, and thus control of resources. But there is nothing the empire had that was technology-wise much more advanced than what the rebels had. Just bigger guns and bigger ships. But this is besides the point I am trying to make. The story on the large scale was about fighting for freedom against tyranny. Again, it isn't really about how science and technology affects things. Technology is used as the setting and to help move the plot along.

Originally posted by Vanor
Again I would dissagree. Space travel is a major theam of all the SW movies, and required for the story to make sense. FTL travel, laser weapons, droids, ect, are all centeral points of the story. The force and other magical parts are also centeral points of the story, but are not nearly as present as the technological parts are. The Force isn't as present as technology? I disagree. The main focus of the story is how Anakin Skywalker falls to the Darkside, and how Luke Skywalker overcomes it. I would say that the Force is much more relavent to the basic good vs. evil plot than are droids, for example. Does it matter that the characters use blasters? Would the story be any different if the used slug throwers instead? Not really. Would it matter if C-3PO was some kind of alien and not a droid? It wouldn't really affect the outcome of the story, would it? But take away the Force, and now you don't have a reason for why Anakin becomes totally evil, and so on. Again, I think technology helps move the plot along and provides wonderful texture to the universe the story takes place in.

Originally posted by Vanor
I think Star Wars is very much about how technology can be used to take power, and keep it though the use of it's force. Without technology, the Empire would of had no power, the major point of it, was to do away with the 'old magic' used by the Old Republic. But Palpatine didn't use force to take power. It was mostly political brilliance in manipulating the government that allowed him to take control. Remember, he ultimately controlled both sides, clonetroopers and droids alike. Palpatine himself didn't fire a single shot. He rose to power on his own without technological or military might. He got the military might once he got there. The Force, however, had much more to play.

The point wasn't to do away with old magic. Palpatine used the "old magic" help get control of the galaxy. He tried to get rid of the Jedi not because he had something against the Force in particular, but because they were defending what he was trying to take. These defenders just happened to use the Force to be effective. The Empire maintain control through sheer resources and numbers. :)

JediLurker
10-15-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
(Traitor, for example, which gave us Matt Stover, the best SW author ever).

I hand that one to Zahn, but that's me. Sorry to get off topic there.

Starfire13
10-15-2003, 12:35 AM
Perhaps, setting it in the same time period as Kotor would be a better idea?

Anyway, there's still much to do in the JA time period. Hey, I wanna visit Dagobah! :p

Astrotoy7
10-15-2003, 04:17 AM
I hand that one to Zahn, but that's me. Sorry to get off topic there.

I think Zahn sticks out more in people's minds because he wrote entertaining novels early in the post 90s SW EU literature 'revival.' He gave us Thrawn, and Jade, and many other wonderful characters, but go back and read it, it really feels dated.... Its very 'cartoonish', and as for that whole "Joruus" and "Luuke" crap, that was embarassing - enough with the clones already... not to mention the YOU MUST KILL LUKE SKYWALKER thrown in here and there, painting a detailed picture of Mara's mental anguish.........not. Compare this to Jacen's ordeal in Matt Stover's 'Traitor" and it gets knocked on its ass flat. I'm looking forward to Zahn returning with his new novel, writing about the outbound flight project I believe.......heaven forbid he has to come up with something *new*

I did meet Zahn(and Stackpole) when they came to Australia , they were nice enough to sign some stuff for me :) Still, SW EU lit and its characters have developed, the authors need to as well,,,,,,

MTFBWYA

Master_Keralys
10-15-2003, 03:19 PM
On topic, please?

It would actually be a more balanced game, IMO. No throwing reborn off of cliffs with ease. It would also be something new. In the past it's always been Jedi v. Sith. Don't get me wrong, I love that part, it's what makes Star Wars so cool. But having something different would aslo be cool. That's one of the neat things about KOTOR, is that it's the same universe, but you're not killing stormies, and everything's just a little bit different. Something similar could work for the NJO. Or, who knows, maybe they could do a Galaxies game for that! J/k. Seriously, though, I think a JK type game would be interesting. And who says you can't start off with full force? Start as Kyle and develop newer, deeper skills, or something. That'd make everyone happy, it'd really be JK3 then.:rolleyes:

Taran'atar
10-15-2003, 06:24 PM
I thought that the new Jedi Order was what Luke founded after Return of the Jedi. In which case, all the Jedi Knight games have been set during that time.

If you mean a JK game based on those books, where they fight those weird Klingon wannabes, the Yahsagasa Vong, then no. That's pretty much the worst idea ever. A fighter sim based on that storyline might work, but not a Jedi Knight game.

Kengo
10-15-2003, 06:40 PM
Arthur C. Clarke said in 2010: A second Oddysey that the events depicted could be thought of not neccisarily as a sequel, but could also be thought of as events in a different Universe or such. This is how I choose to view the entire NJO storyline - it may happen in one possible set of circumstances, but thats just one dimension.....

Makes me feel better :)

Anyway, as you can see Keralys, making a mod of such a kind would have a massive polarised response, you'd have a load of people that would hate it and a load that would love it as an idea. On a purely technical point of view - it would be a massive leap as you'd need a tonne of new models, skins and such - wheras most mods can re-use a good deal of what is already in JA.

Prime
10-15-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Kengo
This is how I choose to view the entire NJO storyline - it may happen in one possible set of circumstances, but thats just one dimension.....

Makes me feel better :) I just crack open a case of beer, and eventually I forget the NJO exists.

That makes me feel better :)

Pnut_Man
10-15-2003, 07:11 PM
I am curious though, what do fans expect to see in the next Jedi Knight Sequel?

The Dark Jedi Groupee has been used- Dark Forces II
Jedi turning to the darkside and going back to the light- Mysteries of the Sith
Jedi returning to the force, fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Outcast
Jedi Academy fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Academy
Jedi Academy fighting even larger dark jedi group- Jedi Knight 3- NO..Just no...

I'm not too sure what the Jedi should be fighting, besides the Yuuzhan Vong. You may say they're some crazy star trek ripoff, but from reading the 'good novels' in the njo, i've firmly held the belief that the Yuuzhan Vong are the deadliest things ever to invade the galaxy. If you want to talk about ripoffs, then refer to the most recent Star Trek Movie, now that's a Yuuzhan Vong ripoff if you ask me.

Fighting against Yuuzhan Vong, creating strategy to overcome amphistaffs, thud bugs, finding and utilizing weak spots on the Crab armor; sounds like a solid game to me. Not to mention the True Natures of the force glimpsed in Traitor, Dark Jedi, Light Jedi, or a Vergereism Force User ;)

idontlikegeorge
10-15-2003, 08:22 PM
Personally, I don't see why a Star Wars Jedi based FPS has to be set post ROTJ.

Why not one around the prequel times? Or around the time of KotOR? Or how about one, without Jedi?

I was thinking, a cool storyline for a fps game, would be set far back in the SW timelines, when the Sith empire had no contact with the Republic for some time: maybe a story of some clan chief or local boss man, getting killed by a rival clan chief, and the young player character seeks revenge, becomes stronger in the darkside, and eventually rises enough to make a play for the throne of the Dark Lord of the Sith.

I mean, there are plenty of stories you could do that doesn't involve the fate of the galaxy. Like, I don't consider DF2: Jedi Knight to be about saving the galaxy - I mean of course Jerec would cause some **** if he wasn't stopped - but the story was more about Kyle Katarn himself, and his personal quest.

Maybe more small scale stories about an individual's personal quest? Being a small scale, you can fit it anywhere and not have many continuity problems as well - between the movies, and most EU material, there are plenty of gaps where small stories can fit in on their own.

To reiterate my argument from my first post; which has nothing to do with my opinion of the NJO series, but a logical hurdle I can see with the making (and marketing) of an NJO game:

"Whereas, a game based on the NJO series, would for one: need to be relative to that book series, which not everyone can relate to; and it would limit the storyline of the game - it would force it into continuity within that series of books."

masterofmayhem
10-15-2003, 08:55 PM
Well, looks like it got a bit off the track up there.

I still say it would be a cool idea. I like the idea of some different enimies for starters. The fighting against reborn etc is getting a bit old.

Also, why can't the game have it's own little sub stories that take place during the whole NJO time period? It doesn't have to follow everything that happened in the books. If i remember correctly, there may even be some sort of reference to Kyle Katarn in those books???

It would be something new! Not the same old boring stormtroopers and reborn!

Starfire13
10-15-2003, 10:30 PM
Oh how about setting it at the time of the Episode II, where you get sent on missions to prevent unrest throughout the galaxy. Then in the final mission, you get to fight as one of the Jedi on Genosis!

Kengo
10-16-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Prime
I just crack open a case of beer, and eventually I forget the NJO exists.

That makes me feel better :)

The NJO has driven Prime to drink...see what it does to people? :p

Good point there Pnut_Master, I think its fair to say they could do with something a little more original for a future JK series game if indeed there was one. Everyone seems to love the way KOTOR took things to a time no one else had used, whilst setting it in a recognisable Universe. That would be a good one to try. All the games actually set in the SW original trilogy that I can think of were like on the old consoles such as the SNES and stuff and ...well they were amazing :)

StormHammer
10-16-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Pnut_Master
I am curious though, what do fans expect to see in the next Jedi Knight Sequel?

The Dark Jedi Groupee has been used- Dark Forces II
Jedi turning to the darkside and going back to the light- Mysteries of the Sith
Jedi returning to the force, fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Outcast
Jedi Academy fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Academy
Jedi Academy fighting even larger dark jedi group- Jedi Knight 3- NO..Just no...


I agree with what you are saying. To reuse the 'Cultist' and 'Reborn' angle yet again would simply be a cop-out, and very unoriginal.

And I don't think everyone here is saying 'Don't make an NJO game at all'. If the NJO is as popular as you say, then fine, they should make a game about it. But it doesn't really have to be a part of the Jedi Knight series. It could use similar concepts, to be sure, but it could still form part of a completely new series focused around those novels.

As others have stated...there's no reason why the next Jedi Knight game can't be set in an entirely different time period. Personally, I don't even think there should be a 'Jedi Knight III'. The numbers are now becoming meaningless, IMHO. I think they've made the right move my dropping the number from Jedi Academy. As far as I'm concerned, Kyle's story has been told, and it's time to move on.

Rather than simply have another Jedi Academy game, where you become yet another student fighting Dark Jedi...it needs to now step beyond it's bounds, and venture further afield.

Taking up on what idontlikegeorge said, the next game in this series really needs to refocus on characterisation. Jaden Korr was basically a cardboard cut-out with no depth whatsoever, and that, in my view, was a major mistake. People followed Kyle's exploits because they grew interested in the character, the decisions he had to make...and find out where his story would end. Well, I did anyway.

I want to see another strong character come into the limelight, with a history, some emotional baggage, and a personal quest to fulfill that ties into the narrative of the current story. And that can be done in any number of ways, and in any time period. I personally like the Jedi Knight style, where your character has no formal training in the Force, but is nevertheless able to use the Force. Someone who has a different life, different concerns, who is suddenly thrust into a dangerous situation and has to use powers they do not fully understand to help them through. Maybe they stumble across an old lightsaber and realise they can use it.

Personally, I'd like to see a lot more stealth and exploration in such a game. Someone who's being oppressed, and has to fight to free his/her own people from tyranny, perhaps.

Basically, the story does not have to tie-in to the main characters in the SW universe. There are other tales, and other heroes, and other events that transpired on other worlds, while Luke and Co. were fighting the Empire on Hoth and Endor.

I wish they would expand on more of the other planets and systems mentioned in the movies and EU. Not just a fleeting visit. I mean, how much of Corellia did we really see? Just a tram. How much of Ord Mantell? A small uninhabited corner...

Let's have an epic battle elsewhere in the universe, with a mixture of all the different races we've come to know.

I'm tired of seeing Grans, Trandoshans and Rodians as stock villains. By the same token, I'd be disappointed to see the next game feature the Vong.

One thing is certain...they need to shed the stale trappings of the past and widen the potential, or I'd rather not see another game in the series at all.

Astrotoy7
10-16-2003, 11:49 AM
Prime Stated
I just crack open a case of beer, and eventually I forget the NJO exists.

Poor NJO, always getting knocked about, even by the mighty Prime !

But, apart form the books/rpg side of things, the NJO hasnt flooded over into any other media, not comics, not (video)games, I cant figure out why LFL would do this...... Can you remember how many games TPM had released with it !!! 90% of them crap, except (pod)Racer, which was old skool racing fun SW style.....

MTFBWYA

*goes back to reading 'The Final Prophecy'...Tahiri ! You GO girl*

StormHammer
10-16-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
But, apart form the books/rpg side of things, the NJO hasnt flooded over into any other media, not comics, not (video)games, I cant figure out why LFL would do this...... Can you remember how many games TPM had released with it !!! 90% of them crap, except (pod)Racer, which was old skool racing fun SW style.....

Yeah, but the marked difference there is that TPM was a movie made by GL himself. There were bound to be games to tie-in to the movie, no matter how bad they were.

NJO is just a part of the EU, and not popular with everyone.

It's probably taken Raven some effort simply to get a lot of the EU content into Jedi Academy as it is...

Prime
10-16-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by idontlikegeorge
I mean, there are plenty of stories you could do that doesn't involve the fate of the galaxy.

Maybe more small scale stories about an individual's personal quest? Being a small scale, you can fit it anywhere and not have many continuity problems as well - between the movies, and most EU material, there are plenty of gaps where small stories can fit in on their own. I agree completely. Just because a story is grand in scale doesn't garruntee that it is good, and small scale doesn't make it bad. Stories that deal with one planet or one small area of the galaxy can be just as interesting, and give a lot more freedom. One thing I loved about the Dark Forces story was that it tied into the movies but was rather small scale.

Originally posted by Kengo
Everyone seems to love the way KOTOR took things to a time no one else had used, whilst setting it in a recognisable Universe. The big difference between a game like KOTOR and an NJO game is that all the elements in KOTOR have a direct connection to the movies. Even though the droids, ships, Sith, and so on are all different styles, they have for the most part a counterpart from the movies. Many NJO concepts and enemies have no connection to the movies, and an in some cases conflict with movie canon.

For the casual fan, the jump to KOTOR is much smaller than the jump to the NJO would be.

Originally posted by StormHammer
But it doesn't really have to be a part of the Jedi Knight series.If the story isn't going to be about Kyle Katarn (either directly or indirectly), I don't think it should be a part of the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series at all. Jedi Knight is about Katarn and his legacy. If a game is going to take place in a different era with different characters, it should be under a new series.

Master_Keralys
10-16-2003, 02:35 PM
Too divisive, perhaps.

However, I think some game in the time needs to happen; it has the potential to be a great field. Maybe an RPG or something would work better. Or maybe, a Jedi Knight type game, just not under the title. I also think an "x-wing" style sim in that era would be interesting.

StormHammer
10-16-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Prime
If the story isn't going to be about Kyle Katarn (either directly or indirectly), I don't think it should be a part of the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series at all. Jedi Knight is about Katarn and his legacy. If a game is going to take place in a different era with different characters, it should be under a new series.

Then perhaps it is time to make another series, because I really had a sense of closure to Kyle's story in Jedi Academy. To continue Kyle's story in any way would really require you to have access to the full range of Force powers he displayed in Jedi Academy. He is a Jedi Master - and there is not a great deal that he would not be able to handle with ease.

That has always been the problem inherent with the series - making the character too powerful to begin with. Frankly, it would be rubbish if they reduced his powers yet again - and I have a feeling a game where you have full access to all of his powers from the very beginning would require the gameplay to be extremely challenging from the very start.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to make such a game...but it would certainly require a great deal more creativity to realise appropriate challenges, and it would most likely alienate any new players because it would necessarily require prior knowledge in the use of Force powers and saber combat.

Remirol Nacnud
10-16-2003, 06:42 PM
I haven't read the books btw, so this is just my first impressions.

The Vong seem a desperate attempt to keep the characters busy. Well, once they've pretty much conquered the galaxy, what is there left? Once all of the Emperor storylines etc are finished with(as I understand it, the remnant is fading in the NJO) so you have to bring an enemy in from another galaxy.

It just gives me the feeling of a childs fantasy. OK, SW is a fantasy story, but it's great because of both the detail of this whole new galaxy in our minds, and the basic storylines(good vs evil) that are shown within it.
But when you continue on to the vong.....it seems more like a kid having a fantasy. "and this happened, and then this happens, then this happens"
I'm not sure if you'll understand what I mean, but I hope you do.

And yes, being a Jedi where the force and your sabre aren't useful would be pretty boring.

But as I understand it the story ends up with Luke travelling to other galaxies to discover a way to defeat the Vong(is that correct?) So perhaps there could be a little something about him discovering a new attunement to the force....or something. Just to take away the "they don't exist in the force" thing.

idontlikegeorge
10-16-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Remirol Nacnud
The Vong seem a desperate attempt to keep the characters busy. Well, once they've pretty much conquered the galaxy, what is there left? Once all of the Emperor storylines etc are finished with(as I understand it, the remnant is fading in the NJO) so you have to bring an enemy in from another galaxy.


Yeah, I agree completely.

They couldn't end it when they finally finished beating the dead horse that was the evil Empire. Couldn't let the characters have only the problems of stabilizing and restructuring a Galactic Civilization (that's too easy), so gotta bring in the next horde of super-villain armies to put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy! ...again.


Yeah, it's boring having the same ol' Dark Side adepts/etc. making a play for Galactic Dominance, but the Vong are different! Instead of the Dark Side, they exist outside the Force, and instead of technology, they use specially-evolved organisms and other organics! Wow!

Hmm. Maybe if the New Republic was called the Terrans, and the Jedi Order called the Protoss, it would all fit like a glove!

In any case, the whole galaxy-in-jeopardy situation is just as old as any plot lines anyone else is bored with. What makes the Zerg (oops, I mean Vong) different, is all on the surface, and not within their use in the flow of the storylines.

Not to say the Vong isn't interesting in and of itself, or certain characters/character stories aren't interesting in the NJO era, I don't think it, as a whole, really fits, or was even needed, in the Star Wars EU storyline flow.


And, more to the topic, it's not that a NJO game wouldn't be fun, I'd probably play it if it was a good game, despite my disliking of the whole NJO line...

But don't expect it to just happen, game developers need good markets for such things, you know? It's all about money. And besides, they don't make games FOR YOU. You have to make your ideal game - So in the meantime, look at community-made mods to get any NJO-game fix you have.

Master_Keralys
10-17-2003, 01:47 PM
Fitting in with the rest of the NJO wouldn't be that big of a deal. Nor would not reading the books have to be important. While there are certainly some distinct differences between the two, how much different would this be than the Clone Wars games having continuity with the book and comic series?

Now, before you all start yelling :rolleyes: there are distinct differences. Namely, that picks up right after the movies and everyone knows all the characters and everything. That's great. It still introduced a lot of new content and ideas, especially for just casual fans. It did fine.

Likewise, the NJO game (regardless of whether its under the JK title or not, you should be a Jedi) could slowly introduce new content and ideas to a fairly familiar universe. You could actually start out doing basic Jedi work in the galaxy with the Empire not a problem, and then move on to the Vong coming in and all that. A slow introduction would solve most of the problems you guys have complained about.

And you guys are right about closing the series. Kyle's done, his story has been told. (Though I do want a book on him in the EU beyond the novelizations of the games:D ).

Master_Keralys
10-23-2003, 06:38 PM
up!:rolleyes:

Prime
10-24-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
A slow introduction would solve most of the problems you guys have complained about. But it doesn't solve the biggest problem where a large percentage of the Star Wars fan population is anti-NJO. Intorducing them slowly or otherwise is not going to solve this. And unless this is changed, it is less feasible for Lucasarts to make an NJO game instead of an game based in the traditional eras.

Master_Keralys
10-24-2003, 05:47 PM
True. Although I've had my complaints about certain parts of the NJO, I've never understood the hatred that people have for it. Perhaps it's because they have been happy with the secure, comfortable universe where everything ended up the same at the end as in the beginning. Now, though, people are at risk, as is the future; I think that many SW fans dislike that. But I love it; it makes the series more real in my opinion.

It's also possible that a game would actually help people to like the NJO better, by giving them another perspective on it. Just a thought....

Master_Keralys
11-10-2003, 07:31 PM
Bump! Bump bump bump!!!!!!

Don't let good threads die!

Given that the NJO is now finished (and don't post spoilers on that!), it might actually be good tactics for LEC to make a game. It would get people to pick up the series that haven't read it and it would sell well regardless of the era. Especially if it wasn't advertised as an NJO game. Why not just a game in that era? It's not like all Jedi ever do is fight Yuuzhan Vong... there's still plenty of regular missions to do, and the political intrigue would make for an excellent situation.

JediLiberator
11-10-2003, 08:07 PM
I don't know what people have against NJO but I just finished reading the Unifying force(the last book in the series) and I have to say a game based in that time period would be awesome. And I think you could play Klye Katarn because the Vong themselves aren't affected by the force, so being a Jedi master might be something of a good thing. Also there are enemies like the Peace Brigade(humans who are vong lackies) and the Vong's slave thrails(who would be harder to affect with the force but not impossible). What the game would require of players is less of an attitude of "Kill em all!" and more of an attitude of "How do I survive and fulfill my mission?" Personally I think its rediculous how in the Jedi Knight games you end up personally killing EVERY storm trooper, criminal, and dark jedi in a level. The higher challenge would make players THINK and maybe stealth would become more of an important factor too. All good points for a potential NJO game. Also powers like telekinesis could still prove advantagious to Jedi( a vong can still hurt when you hit him with a big rock ya know)

On a separate note, the reason SOME of the NJO books are bad is because the authors have such different writing styles and differnent goals when they write these books. Collaboration can only go so far when you've got that many different people writing for the same overall story.

bodstevens
11-10-2003, 11:55 PM
the NJO story is anti star wars...
Why....
the force is irrelivant....
big time dumb.. star wars is about the jedi and force.
good and evil light and dark.
the force is every where (yoda said that one...)
force binds every thing together... plus the vong...
i dont care what explination is given
its just not star wars with the vong more like trek..
Having something that doesn't exist in the force is wrong to the star wars mythos and still a jedi able to move faster than perception can cut any vong down to size...even if this hairbrain i dont believe in the force so it don exist is BS..
read "heir to the empire" or some other good start wars books but not NJO its just not star wars.
the force tells/guides the jedi and helps the reaction to action.
with out the force it a jedi would be useless and star wars useless.
please no more of this Vong BS, its dumb and doesn't fit into star wars.
The force exists in all life thats just the way it is in the star wars mythos..doesn't matter what galaxy they are from the force is every where so again this vong thing is big time dumb
organic weapons ... cool
big ugly weirdos... cool
Force absent...HUH?
not possible in the star wars mythos...
repeat after me
not possible is star wars....
the NJO is over just forget it happened ...
I did :)

Astrotoy7
11-11-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by bodstevens
the NJO story is anti star wars...
Why....
the force is irrelivant....
big time dumb.. star wars is about the jedi and force.
good and evil light and dark.
the force is every where (yoda said that one...)
force binds every thing together... plus the vong...
i dont care what explination is given
its just not star wars with the vong more like trek..
Having something that doesn't exist in the force is wrong to the star wars mythos and still a jedi able to move faster than perception can cut any vong down to size...even if this hairbrain i dont believe in the force so it don exist is BS..
read "heir to the empire" or some other good start wars books but not NJO its just not star wars.
the force tells/guides the jedi and helps the reaction to action.
with out the force it a jedi would be useless and star wars useless.
please no more of this Vong BS, its dumb and doesn't fit into star wars.
The force exists in all life thats just the way it is in the star wars mythos..doesn't matter what galaxy they are from the force is every where so again this vong thing is big time dumb
organic weapons ... cool
big ugly weirdos... cool
Force absent...HUH?
not possible in the star wars mythos...
repeat after me
not possible is star wars....
the NJO is over just forget it happened ...
I did :)

I say you should only knock the NJO if you know enough about it to knock it ! Zonama Sekot(a planet) is very alive in the force. The Vong are very closely linked to Zonama Sekot. This is what the whole NJO series is about, and what the final book "THE UNIFYING FORCE" aims to illustrate...

I cant wait to finish it ...

To each their own, nonetheless :D

MTFBWYA

bodstevens
11-11-2003, 01:35 AM
To each their own NJO isn't what im into...
dont care how it turns out got bored reading it..
Just not into it.
:o

Kurgan
11-11-2003, 02:19 AM
I admit, I've judged the NJO as "stupid tripe" without having read (or even held in my hands) any of the books in the series.

The plot sounds like a bad Star Trek Voyager story-arc and I keep hearing of more crappy plot developments involving killing of main characters, contradicting themes and revelations from the canon films, etc.

I suppose if I were honest about critiquing it I'd have to read the entire series, but I don't have a desire to read 19 novels when there's more interesting sci fi out there to spend my time and money on.

I've been told certain books in the series are great and others are terrible, but then why would I want to break into the story in the middle having missed so much and thus be utterly confused?

I just have to say no thanks. I used to be a huge EU guy and read everything, but I've long since given up "keeping up" with all of the new books, comics, etc being spewed out to milk the Expanded Universe franchise and its ties to the Star Wars mythos for all its worth...

[/End Cynical Rant]

tnd
11-11-2003, 05:38 AM
hey, i think this game would be a great idea...first, b/c i love NJO and secondly because i agree with those above that stated the challenges of fighting the vong in hand to hand combat.
also, what no one mentioned is that the vong have the "masquers" and you might have to use your force sense to "sniff" them out of crowds, etc.

I also think that if an expansion is made to JA, it should focus on the "Academy" aspect of it....or if there's a new game in the JK series, maybe it should follow a young padawan learner thru the progression of becoming a jedi...then being a master and going on missions with your padawans, etc (though that is a VERY ambitious plot)

Back to the NJO thing...i too am a little tired of weequay and rodian villains...i mean there are thousands of species (not all "humanoid" either, that could be used. i think that the settings and backgrounds (worldships, coral skips) for a NJO /JK game would rock.

here's what i think the different ememies in the NJO/JK game would be like:

peace brigade: (gun toting guys...different species... similar to rodians/weequay in JK)

Vong slaves: like stormies...easy slash and they're no longer a problem...arm them with....whatever

Lesser Vong warriors: comprable in difficulty to the new reborn, but instead of using force powers, they have amphistaffs and razor bugs...also, they are "heavier/bulkier"

Higher Vong warriors: very difficult, always surrounded by lackeys that join the fight...fight with amphistaffs...crushingly powerful.

Friendlies:
Ryn, lots of cool jedi, leia, han, wedge, etc.

Also, like the "choice in JA" to become dark or light....maybe one would have to chose to become a half "vong" like tahiri or something.....o and dont forget using masquers yourself to sneak around

last thing...those of you that said the Vong are "star trek", i'd have to disagree with you and say that they are a ripoff of the "Cobra-La" from the GI JOE movie....remember that...


Dennis

Prime
11-11-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by tnd
Back to the NJO thing...i too am a little tired of weequay and rodian villains...i mean there are thousands of species Why don't you replace them you replace them yourself. I have done a lot of this already. It's easy as pie. Right now I replaced the reborn with new models, most of the weequay with battledroids, and most of the Jedi with some of the great JO jedi models (including Jaden), amung other things. JA is so flexible you can set it up however you like...

Originally posted by tnd
last thing...those of you that said the Vong are "star trek", i'd have to disagree with you and say that they are a ripoff of the "Cobra-La" from the GI JOE movie....remember that... Oh, that makes it better... :rolleyes: :)

JediLiberator
11-11-2003, 06:42 PM
Oh and on another note, how many of those people who bashed NJO on this thread actually read any of the books? Cause if you haven't read them you really shouldn't be putting them down.OK? ;)
Oh and like I said earlier, just because you can't use the force to affect the Vong directly doens't mean you can't use the force to affect objects and the enviroment around you. A jedi would still be able to throw boulders at Vong soldiers or mind trick a rancor into attacking them or any number of other options. Its called being CREATIVE. ;)

tnd
11-11-2003, 07:03 PM
yeah, the GI Joe thing doesnt really make it better, just thought i'd point out another Vong precursor.


dennis

Sounds Risky
11-11-2003, 08:15 PM
I thought the next Jedi Knight game could be about Qu Rahn during the Clone Wars and Jedi Purge and could lead up to him and Morgan Katarn finding the Valley of the Jedi. Call it Jedi Prophecy or some nonsense.

tnd
11-11-2003, 08:54 PM
not bad, but i just think it'd be too similar to everything already in the JK series.....dark jedi around....clone troopers instead of stormtroopers,etc.



dennis

Archonon
11-11-2003, 08:54 PM
JediLiberator while I have not read the books themselves, I've read all of the detailed synopsis of each book up until the final two which hadn't been done at the time and have also researched sites such as the NJO encyclopedia. I believe I have at least a somewhat fair amount of knowledge of the series to comment about it and personally I do not like it, like the majority of people I have met. My comments are not meant as disrespect to anyone who likes this series, only my personal views on the subject and my reasoning for my opinion of it.

I do not find the concept of the Vong to be creative nor original, I find them quite cliche and out of place within the SW universe. Firstly they are invaders from another galaxy bent on the complete destruction of anything different from them, way done before in other Sci-fi venues. They worship their gods by mutilating their bodies as well as their social status or ranks, perhaps new to SW but hardly original in concept. Then they live outside of the Force or on another level, this is just laughable considering the source of the material they are working within, the SW universe where everything from sentient beings to nature are connected by the Force, in fact the Force is the essence of all life and existance, so the concept of Vong or anything living outside of this is just absurd again given the universe they are supposed to exist within. The way I see it is that the writers wanted an enemy to be so powerful that they could easily threaten everything within the SW reality, but failed to come up with something within this universe that would fit such a threat so instead opted to just change or disregard it for what eventually became the Vong. It also feels "how typical" that the Vong would decide Coruscant is the location they wanted for their new Homeworld. The whole Jedi splitting into two factions (pacifists vs combatants) was very uncharacteristic of Jedi, then the Jedi becoming exiled and hunted by the Republic felt like they were attempting to create too much of a sense of desperation for the Jedi but to me it felt hollow. I don't care what kind of alien the amphistaff is (as all Vong equipment are organisms), a lightsaber should slice that thing in a single swipe, organics never would be able to act as conductors or resistors to energy weapons such as saber blades, same with Vong armor as it is also a living organism.

As for the game, while I can grant you that you could still use the Force to manipulate the environment, such as rocks, somehow it would leave a very empty feeling to me as a Jedi player not being able to use push, pull, and any other power character of a Jedi's ability in combat. Unless the Vongs were using sabers also, it seems unnatural to fight against them with it, being as sabers should have gone through Vong weapons easily. I do like the look of the Vong model for JK2 (though I read it was an inaccurate representation of the real Vong look) and had the Vongs been the Sith equivalent of orcs I would definately have liked them much better.

I hope you don't think I'm criticizing the tastes of people who like the NJO or the EU for that matter, hardly. These are the reasons I don't like the NJO and would be uninterested in seeing a game featuring them. That said, if you want to create an NJO mod for JA or JK2 or whatever, why don't you guys try recruiting a team and create it yourselves. There are plenty of NJO skins/models available which you could use if you get permission from their authors, then you'd just have to make maps and somehow convey the NJO story in MP, seige mode maybe, though that would limit the mod only to player vs player games, if AOTCTC can figure out a way to deliver a storyline in MP so can you guys, give it a shot. In any case good luck if you decide to try it, if not then hope some team in the future decides to take up your venture.

tnd
11-11-2003, 09:07 PM
Archonon,
i appreciate your respectful disagreement....some others on this board are just plain mean when they make posts regarding difference of opinion.

anyway, i can understand someone not LIKING the NJO, afterall, it is quite different for starwars. the only comments i have regarding your opinion are that

1) i think the reason the NJO/JK game would be cool is that you get an "empty" feeling not being able to use the force against vong. and

2) regarding the NJO series (not the game idea). I think you might be missing the idea that , they dont have "FORCE" essence BECAUSE they're from outside the galaxy ..those arent two separate occurances.

I think its' a cool idea, but i dont think it's somethign LUCASARTS would ever do.

dennis

Astrotoy7
11-11-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
[/End Cynical Rant]

Boy KURGAN you must've gotten on up on the wrong side of the Dawn on Time this morning !

For some reason I keep thinking your avatar is actually YOU - and in that case was thinking that the only use you would have for books is to tear them apart(eg. the white pages) to work those 20"+ biceps :D

But of course, thats not you in the avatar, is it K ?

BTW, a special Hello to all those kids that are getting a thrill out of the NJO ! To those that aren't, well, to each their own.......

MTFBWYA

JediLiberator
11-12-2003, 01:59 AM
Okay, so here's my counterpoints.(Spoilers for NJO below! Be warned!)
Also note before reading this that I am NOT attacking anybodies' right to have an opinion. I just got a little miffed because people talk about this set of books with comments like "well I heard this about NJO from so and so and I don't like that idea." Those kind of comments are not based on the facts and THAT annoys me. And I just read Archonon's post so i figured I'd respond to that too...
Begin Rant



1) If you read the synopsis to Traitor or The Unifying Force both books deal with the concept that the Jedi's perception of the force is incomplete(a.ka. the Jedi ain't perfect!)
2)The Unifying force suggest that the Vong got stripped of the force intentially as punishment for becoming a race of savage warriors. Although they were a little sketchy on this point it suggests the "will" of the force is willing to take a hand in mortal affairs.
3) If an inaminate element like cortosis can resist lightsabers(like the armor the shadowtroopers use in JO) why couldn't a living weapon or piece of armor do the same thing? Especially as the Vong have been working with their bio tech for a few millenia and all it is possible.
4) George Lucas himself stated in one of the extra commentaries for the Ep1 DVD that the sith in fact split from the Jedi order. If that's true why is so hard to believe the New Jedi Order would start to fracture when they face an enemy they can't feel through the force?
5) As for choosing coruscant as the "prize" of the campaign it kinda makes sense. I mean, as a base of operations for ruling the whole galaxy(which was the vong's plan from the get go) could you think of a better place?

End Rant
P.S.-Whomever started this thread, i hope you realized this was gonna degenerate into a debate about the NJO book from the beginning. Inevitability is a sad state...:(

Archonon
11-12-2003, 05:24 AM
@tnd I don't see any reason why I shouldn't like the fact you or anyone else likes the NJO, in the same spirit I tried to say why I don't. The empty feeling would probably be a turn off for many people who like playing as Jedi including myself. The whole point of playing a Jedi is to wield a saber and use the Force. Take away part of that and it's just incomplete and unsatisfying for a lot of us. As to the essence, the fact they come from another galaxy hardly qualifies them as beings that don't qualify to have the Force. In SW the Force is life and the nature of beings themselves, suggesting something is apart from that is suggesting they don't exist because they are not part of life. I wish I could properly explain this so it makes sense but there is not enough board and this post will be lengthy enough already. :)

@JediLiberator, I appreciate your position and respect your opinions. Yet I disagree with your point of view. I'll address my interpretation to your points as listed:

1. I did read the synopsis to Traitor which is where I mentioned that the Vong might exist in another level of the Force, meaning the Jedi didn't understand the Force completely. While I can visulaize that the Force is probably something that can't be ever fully understood or even known, it does not allow venue for the kinds of contradictions that NJO establishes. EX. The Force is within everything in the universe, NJO is Force universe + Vong. Contradicting something established in the movies, ie canon.

2. To suggest that something or someone can strip the Force from an entire race is absurd in my pov to say the least. In SW there is no actual God like there is in actual religions, so that some diety or worse race punished the Vong by eliminating the Force within them is ludicrous, such a thing would just suggest the entire race became nothing, not real because they are no longer part of life.

3. Cortosis is a mineral, there are minerals that can act as natural resistors or conductors of energy which would reduce damaging properties of energy. A sentient being of corporal form is unable to withstand the temperatures of heat produced by something like a lightsaber, an elemental being like a Balrog from LotR on the other hand might be able to resist fire and heat based damage.

4. I have not seen this documentary you mention, I'll check it out. Regardless. from everything I've read about the Sith, they were originally a race from Korriban who practiced the Force for darkness, some Jedi discovered them and succombed to the Dark Side, these were then exiled from the Jedi and they went to Korriban where they mixed with the native Sith thus developing the Sith religion, the counterpart to the Jedi. What the NJO put was that the Jedi were as inept in their decision making as the corrupt senators from the Old Republic, half wanted to seek peaceful negotiations with the Vong after they had slaughtered what thousands, hundreds of thousands, come on. Just look at the movies the Jedi seek peace until the outbreak of war, once that is inevitable they get down to business. Further Kyp Durron's brigade disagreed with this peace initiative so the went rogue and split the Jedi into the two factions, sorry don't buy it. The Jedi would not have remained as uninvolved as they did after the events of Vector Prime, much less however many other events it took for them to finally take action. The others might as well be traitors or in the least deserters, such events just don't appear to me as something that would happen in the Jedi.

5. Coruscant is the center of the Republic and Empire, the Vong could have chosen any planet to make their base of operations from, would they have attacked and conquered the planet sure, but it is hardly a necessity from a strategic point. Actually Coruscant should have been the most difficult target being the base of the Republic and home to its military, that should have been their final goal. But my point was that it was just too typical that they chose Coruscant instead of any other planet in the galaxy because of course Coruscant is the only one that has the suitable conditions to reproduce their former homeworld of Yuuzhan'tar.

In any case, it wasn't my intent to form another debate from this subject. I only expressed my point of view because everyone else did also. As I said, if you want to make an NJO mod go ahead, there are plenty of people who'll play it. I hardly believe you'll have people opposed to you doing it, there's just many who like me are not interested in that particular scenario of the SW EU. That should hardly discourage you from trying to do it if you really want it done. Nice chatting with you, good luck with the NJO proyect.

Astrotoy7
11-12-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Archonon
I hope you don't think I'm criticizing the tastes of people who like the NJO or the EU for that matter, hardly.

It think one thing that can be said with alot of certainty is, most SW fans are highly unlikely to be discouraged from checking out developments in their beloved universe... Its like not going to a movie solely because someone else didnt like it :p

First and foremost, you really need to be an EU person to be into the NJO. Secondly, you need to get your mind around the fact that the NJO, EU novels cannot continue in the vein of the films forever. the SW saga is only 6 films. This is a relatively small creative universe(comparing to something like Trek, for example) So it is inevitable you will get ppl who switch off the EU/books in particular that begin to venture outside this. This extends to include the empire. Some ppl cant get their heads around a SW without Xw v Tie dogfights, nasty imperial villains or brilliant tacticians.... Times change. Even in the SW universe....

Many ppl like NJO, most for different reasons. The Yuuzhan Vong isnt the first and wont be the last time in science fiction where you get an enemy from "parts unknown" who are tough as nails. This is far from the reason I read NJO. I dont sit there reading and drool over the biotechnology or ritualism which is part of the Yuuzhan Vong's beliefs and practises. I am more intrigued by the *characters* and their motivations. In any piece of media, be it film, TV, fiction, anything, what draws many to it is the insights it gives into our own experiences and how this relates to what we enjoy/or not...

This does NOT mean NJO is social commentary, far from it, it is escapism, and a melodrama on a galaxy wide scale...

What has the NJO taught me ?? - nothing new - but what I learnt about the *characters* was definitely interesting. All of these themes are recurring tenets of literature from day 1....... for example,

a)Nom Anor : there will always exist selfish individuals, willing to exploit any situation to their benefit.....

b)The Vong Philosophy of conquest : there will always be a group or faction that is determined to exert its will and philosophy over others. This is paired with a lack of tolerance

c)The Heretics/Shamed Ones : there will always be underpriveleged/persecuted elements of any society that are striving to achieve equality

d)Jacen Solo : personal reflection is a tool to strengthen the will. Face it, the guy reflects *alot* and in 'Traitor' he showed an amazing strength of will......

AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, after all that, for me, reading the NJO is FUN. If its not fun, then its just homework !

MTFBWYA

Master_Keralys
11-12-2003, 04:05 PM
I didn't expect half this much interest. And I did know that it'd end up being an NJO debate.

I do not find the concept of the Vong to be creative nor original, I find them quite cliche

Aren't you missing the fact that all of Star Wars is cliched? The whole thing is ripoffs of other ideas, but it's the presentation that makes it matter. I don't buy that argument for that very reason.

They chose Coruscant because it was a way of humiliating the Republic: we took your capital and made it ours. That's very logical, especially from a strategic perspective.

The NJO makes the point that the universe isn't just as cut and dried as Jedi vs. Sith. It also makes the point that Jedi have limitations. That's the whole point of having the Yuuzhan Vong exist outside the force. Vergere comments that "If the Force is life, can there be life outside the Force?" in Destiny's Way. And here point is right on: just because they don't appear in Jedi senses, that doesn't mean that they aren't in the Force at all. I haven't gotten to TUF yet so don't spoil it, but I think that it will answer a lot of those questions.

Actually, the suggestion of the Force having a will isn't that far out: think about the "living Force" that Qui-Gon refers to in Ep. 1. It very much has a will. Moreover, many people dislike this idea because it makes the Force something different than what they've always thought it was. People have to get over their own misperceptions. Finally, like it or not, Lucas approved all of this.

There are critical differences between the Old Jedi and the New Jedi; that's another point of this story arc. It also goes to show how the JC is needed, and it makes the point that the Jedi are human like everyone else. Finally, there have been great schisms in the Jedi before; the battle that brought about the Valley of the Jedi was one such. The old Jedi wouldn't have splintered by the time of the prequels, but the new ones don't have the same history or foundation as the new Jedi.

As far as the game goes, those traits could actually make for a better game, with less trooper slashing and more skill required. And you could play as Kyle again, he should have plenty of challenges against the Vong...

Prime
11-12-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by JediLiberator
Oh and on another note, how many of those people who bashed NJO on this thread actually read any of the books? Cause if you haven't read them you really shouldn't be putting them down.OK? ;) If I see a trailer for a movie, and I think it looks stupid, does that mean I can't not like it unless I see it?

Originally posted by tnd
yeah, the GI Joe thing doesnt really make it better, just thought i'd point out another Vong precursor. I know. I was just teasing you :D

Originally posted by tnd
not bad, but i just think it'd be too similar to everything already in the JK series.....dark jedi around....clone troopers instead of stormtroopers,etc. But a lot of people, including me, like those things that are already in the JK series. Personally, one reason I wouldn't want a game where I fight the Vong is because I am perfectly happy to fight stormtroopers and Dark Jedi. I've played the whole series, and so I have been fighting stormtroopers for years now. I still have fun doing it now. I guess I see an NJO game as getting rid of most of the elements I enjoy about Star Wars games, like stormtroopers, lightsaber battles, dark jedi, effective force powers, and scenes/locations familiar from the movies.

Just MO.

ogre_h
11-12-2003, 08:53 PM
I guess I'm a reluctant fan of the NJO series. Some were written very well, and that kept my interest. However there are just to many inconsistancies, like creatures that create black holes to use as weapons and shields? Where does the mass and/or radiation go? Anyone hear of conservation of energy?
No a biological based society will fall to a technological one, becaue the tech side is much more adaptible and flexible. They use flying insects for guns, we'll spray the battlefield with RAID.

Now I think that a future JK series game should take place afte NJO, and concern itself with all the dark little force users running around the galaxy causing mischief while the Jedi have been busy fighting the Vong. The advantage would be that such a game would be more open-ended. A game that takes place prior to the movies will eventually run up against "canon" and that's the end of that. But a game taking place afterwards... You can have a slew of villians to choose from, sith, ex-Imperial, pirates, slavers, cloners, Vong remnants, those reptiles that used souls to power their war droids, crime lords etc.

Archonon
11-12-2003, 09:25 PM
@Astrotoy7 Though there are several concepts that I have liked about the EU (Dash Rendar, Thrawn, Korriban) a lot of the way things are executed in the EU are to my dislike. For one too many clones, I know the films opened this with the Clone Wars but these clones had a specific purpose in the general arc of the SW story (they were the tools for Palpatine's rise to power), but the EU is way too exagerated with the villain of the week clone (Palpatine, Thrawn, Jorus C'Baoth, Luke and God knows how many others have all been cloned). I agree with you 100% that it is escapism and should be fun, which is why it doesn't bother in the least that you like the NJO or EU, but for me it isn't fun, I find the Vong as a desparate creation for something to be a challenge for the Jedi, I do not find them interesting nor appealing as a race or group like the Sith in SW, the Harkonnens in Dune or the Shadows in B5. I like the Solo children but I do not like several of the NJO characters, so I never got attached to them. Finally, I found the Vong too over the top in their victories, they are too invincible against everyone beyond the point of reality. Every planet pretty much falls without exception to the Vong, neither a Republic, Remnant, Jedi, Chiss and Hapan alliance can stop them, I just don't buy it. They are resistant to sabers, they are outside the Force, they resistant to blasters in the head? Because they seem like it with everyone losing all the time. I prefer stories where there is a balance between victory and loss, that things can go desperate and the tide turns in favor of one side and the other is doing whatever possible to regain advantage sure, that's great. But I find it unappelaing to have one side losing all the time to then come up with a Hail Mary victory at the 11th hour, another reason I don't like the NJO or even RotJ for that matter. But this is a subjective thing, that's what I like, if we all thought alike there would never be variety.

@Master_Keralys I tried not to form a debate but alas it always happens, as neither side can ever just accept the different point of view. I realize that all SW characters are cliched, in fact it is unprecedented how many similarities there are between the entire SW anthology and Frank Herbert's masterpiece Dune. I'm not saying that basing themselves on pregenerated concepts is a bad thing and I agree that presentation makes up for lack of originality. My comment about the Vong was because they keep being referred to as something new and never before seen and in my opinion they are far from that which why I called the cliched. I read they chose Coruscant because of sometyhing in the agriculture or atmosphere being correct for them to recreate the conditions of their homeworld once they moved it closer to the sun. Nevertheless, from a military strategic standpoint, the capitol is the ultimate objective to win the war because it's supposed to be the hardest to conquer, like Berlin in WW2, the allies didn't start by tring to conquer Berlin or even Germany for that matter, first it was Africa, then Italy then France and eventually Germany. But that is irrelevant, my point is that how typical in any kind of sci-fi invasion that the hero's homeworld/capitol is always the specific target the enemy needs, not wants, needs. I'm not suggesting that the universe remain stale of Jedi vs Sith or Empire vs Rebels but I would have preferred that the universe remain true to its original concepts (all living beings are connected by the Force, etc). While I understand what you mean about the Jedi of the era, nonetheless remember that in SW things are always taken to somewhat extremes, if you do good then you are on the light path, begin to slip up and you head down the dark path, now I don't agree with this myself, I see the Force as neutral in its essence which is why I laugh at the concept of Light and Dark powers, but the movies push in the direction that paths are ver black and white, again this is something I'm flexible in. Still, I consider the Jedi as following training similar in fashion to soldiers, which means I do not believe they would suddenly split in two over the politics of warfare, firstly as I mentioned because I do not believe the Jedi would have not gotten involved against the Vong even half before they did, thousands or maybe millions dying and the Jedi insisting No there is a peceful solution, hardly. Luke himself was very much involved in the Rebellion and never suggested well let's make peace with them, since the Vong are supposedly much worse I doubt Luke would keep twidling his thumbs while the galaxy was on fire. Hence I do not think there would be a split in the Jedi because of discipline of training as well as I don't believe it would have ever gotten that far. But hey that's just me. As for the game, well I think I've eplained why I wouldn't find it interesting to play a game under these conditions; lack of Force, uninteresting character developemt and storyline (to me), and honestly I'm way tired of Kyle, he's fine as a mentor but I wanted to stop being him all the way after JK1. For a third time, if you want a JK series mod of the NJO organize it yourself. Trust me sitting here debating why it would be good to have an NJO mod will not have it done any time soon, try recruiting a group to make it so you can enjoy Vong slicing action. So good luck on that.

Kryn Dreith
11-14-2003, 03:44 PM
I disagree, Archonon. I think that you're right about us not getting it anytime soon, but I don't think that's the question. Correct me if I'm wrong, Keralys, but I think it was a hypothetical question: what would the community think?

The Jedi do win victories. But one of the points of the series is that the Jedi and the rest of the galaxy must work together. The Jedi usually win when they and the Republic work together all the way. That's been the problem the whole time: the NR gov. And it makes the point well, because a lot of governments have the same problem of hesitation. Moreover, those victories have been awesome... the battle in the Black Bantha, the Battle of Borleias (which was "technically" a loss, but the NR won), and the battle at Talfaglio to save the refugees. And don't forget about Ebaq 9. It's gone both ways; the Chiss repelled most of their initial advances, so...

Finally, the point isn't to have a mod. The point was that he wanted to know what the community thought. And obviously, by the votes at least, a fair number of people liked the idea: more than didn't. Thus, your argument that he whould just set aside his hopes (and the rest of us too) because you don't like it is rather silly, I think...

Archonon
11-14-2003, 07:59 PM
Firstly, I fully respect your disagreement. Secondly, I have no idea what you are talking about. I do not think I ever told him to set aside his hopes for an NJO mod, if anything I'd like to think I've tried to encourage him to take an iniciative at beginning one. The fact that I do not like the NJO makes absolutely no consequence to whether a mod is made or not about it, the very simple solution for people who are not interested such as myself is to just not download it. Most of these threads led to requests at making NJO mods for either JO or JA, and being in the JA forum I believed he was polling whether there would be interest in such a mod aside from just a game. Reading his original post I see he only asked about a JK game in this timeline, well I apologize then for misinterpreting this I thought I read that somewhere in this thread.

I think you should read more carefully before commenting about what I said. I fully encourage his desire to have a mod done, what I said was if he wanted to see one made that why didn't he get involved. Start recruiting, talk to some modders, see what happens. The fact remains that remaining here debating on whether the NJO is good or not (a subjective thing) won't help any the progress of an NJO mod being made, so I suggested he get involved.

I'm happy for you that you like the NJO, and in the same spirit of disagreement with my opinions I disagree with yours. Naturally I've seen Republic/Jedi victories, nonetheless they remain way too unbalanced imo for credibility. You do not need to agree with my opinion but in the least respect it as I do yours. Anyways, it doesn't really matter to me one way or another. His query was for an opinion on the community's interest in an NJO game, well though I believed I read something about a mod somewhere before I began posting (maybe its backlag from the last NJO mod thread from long ago), my opinion remains the same. Am I opposed to an actual NJO game? No. Am I interested in seeing the JK series go in that direction? Absolutely not. Since he asked for an opinion on this I believe any answer should be acceptable even if it is opposing an NJO mod/game.

Master_Keralys
11-18-2003, 03:38 PM
Some good points, Archonon. Dreith was right, I was thinking a game. I would love a good mod (quality like the AOTC:TC team is doing) but I just haven't seen another crew like that that would want to do this particular mod.

Precisely what do you mean by "unbalanced", Archonon? I've see the balance coming back, but it's kind of like the Americans invading the Indians - except the NR does have matching technology. It's a situation of technological superiority (at least temporarily), a fractious government, and sheer weight of numbers. If the government had had its act together, it would never have been a problem. Same with the Jedi, who were held back by Luke's hesitancy to possibly unleash Dark Jedi on the galaxy. And Kyp Durron didn't help the situation, so...

I think perhaps a Jedi game would be cool. But maybe not in the Jedi Knight series. Similar concepts and whatnot, but newer engine, all that kind of stuff. I've also said before that I would love to see an X-Wing style game in the NJO, and even a KOTOR in the NJO wouldn't be bad...

Blitzkrieg_vs
11-18-2003, 11:54 PM
How bout just a mod for NJO? That way, everyone is happy :D

Astrotoy7
11-19-2003, 10:17 AM
As much as I love EU and the NJO(only 130+ pages into TUF), I dont see it fitting in as a JO/JA mod. Probably not enough modders are fans of the NJO, and most will be at odds about how to deal with the force absence thing. Hopefully a future game may include them..., not necessarily a FPS though

MTFBWYA

Kryn Dreith
11-19-2003, 07:32 PM
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Astrotoy7. There may e a great deal of support for it, but it's really not enough. I also agree with Keralys: even a KOTOR type game would be cool. But whatever they did, you'd have to be a Jedi. It's just no fun to try to kill Vong with a blaster pistol, you see!!!

Astrotoy7
11-26-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Blitzkrieg_vs
How bout just a mod for NJO? That way, everyone is happy :D

Some one seems to be keen after all..... follow....

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1388764#post1388764

MTFBWYA

Shakey Mac
11-27-2003, 02:52 AM
idontlikegeorge said this:

I mean, they are completely seperate from the Force! Atleast the yslamiri are still relative to the Force, but the Vong aren't affected with a lack of or presence of the Force.

i would have agreed with that statement 6 months ago. but i actually had the guts to pick up an NJO book not too long ago; Traitor, by Matthew Stover. in it, Jacen (the male twin) is captured by the Vong for some obscure religious reason. anyway, the basic plot of the book is irrelevant for this post. however, along the course of the book, Jacen learns to interact with Vong-life forms using the Force. once he eventually discovers how to do this, his "teacher" likens the Vongs' lack of a force presence to the electro-magnetic-spectrum. the idea being that just because all we see is white light (and its component colors) doesnt mean that the other forms of light (x-ray, infrared, UV) dont exist.

so the whole premise behind what Jacen learns is not so much that the Vong are untouchable by the Force, but just that they are untouchable by the Force all the current Jedi know.

so a story could be conceivably be weaved around Jacen returning and teaching his Jedi comrades how to effect the Vong using the force.

but thats just my opinion.

Syzerian
11-27-2003, 07:10 AM
like Species 8472 from Voyager
:D those r very annoying jumping around corners and hard to kill (star trek elite force) probably the most annoying monster in that game lol

anyway NJO game sounds good but it will be like what people were saying before JA kyles a jedi master hes finished no more playing him so basicaly in NJO u would need to be trained as a padawan which would be exactly the same as JA
if a game was made as u being a jedi master the dark jedi would have to be very hard and stormtrooper would have to be like the droids in TPM that being always in groups of about 4 or 5 and have tanks backing them up:eek: anyway for a game like this to be good it wouldnt be very newbie friendly and only die hard jedi knight fans would like it
i like the old mercanary jedi knight 1 feel of the game where a lightsaber wasnt "uber" but then again its fun to run into a bunch of stormtroopers deflecting there shots before cleaving them into a thousand pieces:D

Astrotoy7
11-27-2003, 12:15 PM
Im still meandering through the final NJO book, "The Unifying Force", one revelation was (major book spoiler) :

The yuuzhan vong are absent from the force because it was stripped from them as a punishment for their aberrant ways

I havent finished reading the book, but it can safely be assumed that there will be greater clarification of where the Vong stand w regards to the force. This would obviously affect any other EU/gaming representation of them.....

Still that above mod/project sounds interesting, and ambitious.... I would definitely give it a go, if it ever gets completed......

MTFBWYA

Master_Keralys
12-01-2003, 03:40 PM
Does anyone know what happened to Prime's NJO mod that he talked about early in the thread? It's been kind of silent on that thread for a while... For that matter, where' Prime? Hmm...

I can't wait for TUF <no spoilers, no spoilers, no spoilers... grr. Focus, Keralys!!!>

Astro, go check out my Jacen Solo (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=118556) thread in the EU section... :D Just watch out for the ridiculous quantities of literary analysis. It's a good thread, though.

Kengo
12-01-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
Does anyone know what happened to Prime's NJO mod that he talked about early in the thread? It's been kind of silent on that thread for a while... ...


Wha? Unless I seriously misintrepreted what Prime meant when he said " I guess I see an NJO game as getting rid of most of the elements I enjoy about Star Wars games, like stormtroopers, lightsaber battles, dark jedi, effective force powers, and scenes/locations familiar from the movies." it doesn't make much sense for him to have started an NJO Mod? Am I missing something here? :confused:

Master_Keralys
12-01-2003, 09:29 PM
Yup, you're right. Sorry, I think I was thinking about something PnutMaster said about another mod that's being done. It was a long time ago, and I was in a rush when I wrote that... so I was confused.

The Count
12-01-2003, 10:10 PM
NJO sucks dick and ruined the whole point of Star Wars; it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned; also why isn't pnut_master the most hated person on the entire forum; he loves to RPG and love the NJO; all the self rightgeous morons on here should be going for his throat.

Astrotoy7
12-02-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by The Count
NJO sucks dick and ruined the whole point of Star Wars; it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned; also why isn't pnut_master the most hated person on the entire forum; he loves to RPG and love the NJO; all the self rightgeous morons on here should be going for his throat.

What are you carryin on about Count....

So you dont like the NJO..... So you dont like RPG.... well, um, good for you ! As for me I love NJO, and am a huge RPG fan, from Final Fantasy to Neverwinter... cant wait for KOTOR.

Pnut is hardly the most hated person on the forum, or the most annoying. In fact, the only thing that irritates me are whingers, but you are a POM after all.... :p

Don't get your knickers in a knot though guv, the NJO isnt everyones cup o' tea.....

KERALYS - I was actually avoiding that thread because I thought it contained TUF spoilers, but since you posted it...... I'm 300 pages in, its amazing stuff....

I dont think this is spoiler material but Kyles name is dropped at least 4 times so far by my count, including 1 very short spoken line.....

MTFBWYA

*goes off to EU forum*

Prime
12-02-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by The Count
NJO sucks dick and ruined the whole point of Star Wars; it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned; also why isn't pnut_master the most hated person on the entire forum; he loves to RPG and love the NJO; all the self rightgeous morons on here should be going for his throat. All you mother******s who like the NJO are goina pay! :mad:





How's that?

Kengo
12-02-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Prime
All you mother******s who like the NJO are goina pay! :mad:

How's that?

*Lights saber*

I don't even like the NJO, but en guarde!

Solo4114
12-02-2003, 06:49 PM
...thank you Jay and Silent Bob... (don't think I didn't catch that. ;) )


ANYWAY....

Personally, I'm against the NJO. I haven't read the books either, but I've read enough background material to know that I'd rather just avoid it. If the whole storyline was presented to me in an easily digestible format, I MIGHT look into it, but only to critique it more accurately.

It seems ill thought out to me. The Vong just don't fit the feel of the star wars universe to me. The whole concept of having them as the new big bad guys strikes me as an attempt to broaden the appeal of star wars or somehow make it more "mature". This is like saying we should have Episode III be rated R and be more violent to appeal to mature audiences. the end result is that you shrink your audience and lose much of the feel of the original material.

Think about it this way. Imagine if the next Star Trek movie suddenly had the Enterprise discover a planet of telekinetic, empathic, psychic samurai who used laser swords and believed themselves to be the guardians of peace and justice. You'd cry foul, wouldn't you? It's like mixing your paints or double-dipping with chips. Just don't do it. :)

It also shows me that the people who conceived of the whole idea really didn't understand what star wars is about. They saw it more as science fiction and less as myth. Read some Joseph Campbell. THAT is what Star Wars is about. The space setting is just a backdrop to what is basically an archetypal hero tale. Granted, the EU books have basically told the stories of what happens afterwards to the characters (which gets away from the "hero" story), but have done so mostly emulating the feel of the films. They've used the established conventions from the films and have played with them a little, but basically hewed pretty closely to the source material.

The NJO stuff seems like a conscious radical departure from this. It's as if the marketing guys said "It's all getting stale. We need to shake things up a bit. The Empire is getting tired as a source for stories. I mean, how many would-be usurpers can we have here?" And they were right about that. But it's what happened NEXT that's the problem. Rather than decide to reexamine the original themes more closely and to stick with those themes, they started spinning out ideas which, to me at least, seem based more on what's "cool" than on capturing the feel of the films.

No offense to our younger posters, but it seems like a lot of it was the same 13-year-old-inspired drek that we find in films like Independence Day. "Yeah! So the bad guys would be these evil aliens who, like, can't be touched by the force! Cool! And they'd have LIVING spaceships! What, like they live in them? No, man, like the ships are ALIVE! Wow! And ALL their weapons are alive and stuff! Oh, and you know, to make this more mature and more serious, we should kill off someone. One of the main characters. That'd make it mature."

People don't really want mature, though. When I read Star Wars books or see the movies, I want to feel like I'm 5 years old again. I do appreciate having my "Cool!" center stimulated (IE: the last 30 minutes of Ep. II), but I want basically a space myth, not science fiction. It seems that the people writing the stories said "It's time for Star Wars to grow up" when star wars is precisely about NOT growing up.

Now, I'm all for telling darker stories and I think that highlighting pain and loss makes a story more meaningful and makes the heroes victories count for more when they happen. But the way I see it, killing off our established favorites is just a bad idea. Better to set the story in an entirely new era without those characters, and simply tell a new and darker story in the Star Wars universe.

Besides, there are other ways to threaten the galaxy than just making up some evil unstoppable space aliens from another galaxy who...um...are unstoppable and have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the universe...

It's like taking Tolkien or the Dragonlance books and then saying, "And then, from across the seas, came a race of people who flew on magic carpets and could turn their bodies into metal at a whim!" It just makes you go "Huh? Where the hell did THAT come from?"

If they wanted to create new badguys, they could have done any of the following storylines:

1.) Droid/Clone rights. A new story arc where the underclass is treated poorly and seeks representation in the senate. This touches off a conflict between a group of planets who want to basically enslave droids/clones and the rest of the republic that's against them. Or it could be that the group wants to join the republic, but the republic is against it, and about how a small group of Jedi travel to the planet to expose the truth about droid/clone injustice.

2.) A territorial war breaks out between two planets or two groups on one planet, based on who has hereditary rights to the planet. The conflict threatens to engulf the republic in war as planets begin to take sides. Can the Jedi mediate the peace in time?

3.) Luke senses a great disturbance in the Force, but his visions remain cloudy. Across the Republic, there are signs of some impending evil approaching, but nothing concrete appears to Luke. Could the Sith be rising again? Is there a new power in the force? What danger awaits the galaxy, and can Luke and his Jedi solve the riddle in time? You could then throw in any number of smaller scale conflicts that could be orchestrated by some evil power, or could just be general free-floating nastiness in the galaxy. Moral of the story: true evil can never be eradicated. So long as there is good, there must be evil, and Luke and the Jedi must remain vigilant for its rise in any form.

Those are just a few. Instead, what'd we get? Nasty bio-borg-like guys who are into body piercings, and a dead wookiee on our hands. Where do I sign up?

Regardless, I actually came up with a way to neatly sidestep the events of the NJO, while at the same time still give them some creedence and value in the continuity. If I ever got off my ass and wrote the stories (and if Lucas entertainment actually didn't sue me first), they might be pretty cool. :)

JediLiberator
12-02-2003, 08:28 PM
Ummm so what do you think about an NJO game? I thought that was the point of this thread? As for your opinions on the books Solo4114 to each his own pal. You want to feel like a kid that's your thing. I, for one, am glad that Star Wars has evolved into something that steps beyond the ideas the movies and earlier books used. It's time to expand the boundaries of what we see as Star Wars. That hold just as true for the games as it does for books or even movies.

Wes Marrakesh
12-03-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by The Count
NJO sucks dick and ruined the whole point of Star Wars; it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned; also why isn't pnut_master the most hated person on the entire forum; he loves to RPG and love the NJO; all the self rightgeous morons on here should be going for his throat.

Well hello and **** you too. Just 'cause you don't like the NJO or you don't like RPGers, doesn't mean we need to hear about it. Especially if it's a flame. Keep it to yourself.

Also, I see no reason why I should be going for Pnut's throat (self righteous moron or not). Yours, however... there's good reason there.


Returning to the topic of the thread... I think there's a large amount of potential for an NJO game. I probably wouldn't play it, though. I don't see very much non-linear gameplay here, and though the Vong are pretty cool, it seems like it would be very hard to balance. But if it was pulled off well, there's no good reason not to give it a shot.

Astrotoy7
12-03-2003, 02:26 AM
Uh-oh....please don't turn this into *another* flame fest....

Count - I don't think its a good idea to come on any forum, let alone this one and call ppl morons, self righteous or not... Go straighten your Posh & Becks poster will ya.... :p

If you want to rant about the NJO go to the EU forum !
http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=442

there's plenty of ppl in there who'd love to agree or disagree with you....


back to topic....... well if those guys ever make the mod(see posts above) I'll give it a go. I think the vong thing will fit better in with :
-A SW flight sim, like the old XW series, which requires a bit more precision
-A stealth and strategy FPS, like Republic Commando seems to be(but of course NO Vong there, wrong era !)
-An RPG or RTS, this would have to be done extremely well to be at all fun !

see... i'm cynical about the game side of things but I love the NJO... to each their own... Getting on here and saying *anything* sucks dick will render what was a thoughtful discussion and debate into a rant and flame-a-thon.... which is boring, and sad....

damn you **(mumbles under breath... words include 'frickin' and 'count'...... :p )**

Solo4etc.. Nice, well thought out post. At least you can elaborate on what you dislike about the NJO, rather than saying it "sucks dicK".

As for the Vong, I really couldnt care less if they are tatooed tough guys who are invisible to the force. Thats just the dressing, the main body of the NJO is about *specific* characters and how they deal with the situations presented to them.....If it weren't for characters like Nom Anor, Jacen & Jaina Solo, Vergere, Corran Horn, Tahiri etc then the NJO would be another low rate sci fi spin off, like alot of the Trek novels are...... Dont knock it till you try it....properly.....

Wes - well stated...all of it !!

MTFBWYA

Solo4114
12-03-2003, 12:13 PM
See, that's the thing. I'll bet the story itself is kind of cool if it was set in some other universe. But to me it just doesn't belong in the Star Wars universe. As for expanding Star Wars and letting it grow beyond the movies, I think that's nice and all, but isn't that what the pre-NJO EU stuff was doing anyway? It expanded on the stories of the characters, while (generally) maintaining the feel of the films. I guess I just don't get why people would want to get away from the films and the feelings they evoked. Isn't it that experience that you have watching the films that made you a Star Wars fan in the first place?

Even aside from all that, I guess my other great gripe with the Vong is that they seem contrived. They're too easy a plot device to me and they just don't seem all that creative, in addition to the stuff I discussed above. It's as if someone said, "Ah, hell, I dunno. Make 'em bad guys from another galaxy or something" and then the rest of the brainstormers went from there ("And they'd have biological everything! And the force wouldn't work! And, and, and....")

As for a game based on this, I've discussed this before (albeit back on the JK2 forums) and I think it probably wouldn't work very well. We've pretty much covered the reasons why here, though. If you want to stay true to what I've heard of the stories, any fights with a vong would have to be basically no-force affairs. Not much of a Jedi game. Your lightsabre would do piddly amounts of damage (even LESS than 1.04!!). Again, not much of a Jedi game. The rest of the time, you could fight a bunch of battle thralls and collaborators, but then how would this be any different from what we do already? Essentially, you'd have the vong as the "bosses" of the levels, but it just doesn't sound like it'd be that fun to me. Then you've got all the stuff with a reduced audience, people not knowing the background story, etc.

I think a game based on the NJO would likely be reviewed by people who hadn't read the books and would have much of the same reactions that many of us have had. Namely a "Huh? Where the hell did THIS stuff come from? This isn't Star Wars!" kind of response. I just think it's too touchy a subject to make a game about and it's financially not that feasible. Besides, folks are already working on mods for it, so no worries. You'll get SOMETHING with the NJO feel to it eventually. :)

Astrotoy7
12-03-2003, 12:26 PM
Solo4etc
well...at least your responses are detailed... At the end of the day, the Vong are NOT what the NJO is all about.... need I say it again... I'm finishing "The Unifying Force"(The final book) and it has been an amazing read.....

I think it'd be great for you to state your case at the EU forum, and have a squizz of the NJO related threads... there have been some excellent posts by Keralys in particular..... But you wouldnt be the only one there who isnt into the NJO.....

MTFBWYA

I am the Boo
12-03-2003, 01:51 PM
Astrotoy7: While the Vong may not be what the books are ultimately about, they would be what the GAME is ultimately about.

Unless the developers make the story so integral to the game(such as in Xenosaga or Final Fantasy etc) and extend the game to such lengths as to HAVE that much story, the Vong will never be more than bosses or Minibosses.

Most FPS, including the JK series to date, just don't have that much story so they can convey the depth of intrigue and character building that would be needed for an NJO game to be anything but what Solo4114 suggests.

The gamers and the critics who played the game would end up only experiencing the NJO game as a strange departure from the standard SW lore and wonder what crack Lucas was smoking the day that it crossed his desk and he stamped it with the "Ok" stamp.

Jahs
12-03-2003, 03:39 PM
Im too lazy to read the entire thread, so I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but how about playing a bad guy? Perhaps a Vong, perhaps not.
Would probably attract alot of players, like the casual sith rodian, or the more timid darkbountyhuntersmuggler.

Master_Keralys
12-03-2003, 03:57 PM
Well done, Solo4114. I think you're right about a lot of things.

HOWEVER:

I think that if the game was doen correctly it could be very powerful. I think, though, that with the kind of FPS's today, the story isn't as important in most of them. It certainly can be, though. Regardless of whether or not you like the game, the story development and player involvement level in HALO was incredible, and HALO 2 will probably be the same, from all I've heard. It just goes to show you that it's possible, but it takes a ton more work. And that's something LA doesn't seem to care about in the JK series anymore.

So, in the long run, I think that you guys are right: it would make a better RPG or X-Wing style game (which I've wanted since the series started :p ) - but not because of the limitations of the storyline, but rather because of LA. The

As I've said before, it would actually be fairly easy to get into the story without feeling unnatural: have them come in a few missions into the game. It would have to be done right, and it would be a lot of work, but all true masterpieces are. That's why games like XWA and KOTOR are so incredible - they had the work to earn it, and no offense to Raven, b/c it's not their fault, but JO and JA just don't have that depth (though, to be honest, I think the story was stronger w/JO than JA).

Solo4114 - you really should head over to the EU section: your rationality would be most appreciated.

I am the Boo - true. That's kind of what I was talking about with the dev time and effort and all that. LA just isn't into it, and it weakens their games I think.

Jahs - that's not a bad idea, and it certainly hasn't been mentioned - I'd have to think about it. It'd be interesting, that's for sure...