PDA

View Full Version : Single vs Dual vs Staff (civil and objective please)


klock501
10-14-2003, 08:57 AM
Before anyone tells me this topic has been abused to death already, I'd like to talk about the situation as it is now. Of course we all had our opinions when we first got the game, but now after numerous duel matches how do we feel?

Balanced? With force? Without force?

The reason I thought of this. I've been striving to learn single saber (former JO player) adapting to the red only or red heavy technique against staffs/dual.

Tonight, my friends joined me in a dueling server for the first time. Two of them fought, one of them is a JO veteran and is quite skilled at fighting games.

The other button mashed.

The JO veteran was winning, until the button masher scored one hit and brought his life down to 17, and proceeded to kill him and win.

They were both using dual sabers.

Veteran: we're not playing that S*it again. Not where XXX can button mash and take 80 life away in one hit.

So I'm looking for opinions regarding balance, suggestions, general comments, do we need a saber balance patch ?

idontlikegeorge
10-14-2003, 09:54 AM
Get over button mashing. I mean, back in the Street Fighter 2 days on my SNES, my friends sister would button mash and beat us sometimes. But not always.

It's not like in JO, of all games, that two single saber NF people got some button mashed lucky hit in!

I mean really, after 1.03 I never saw any controlled aimed saber attacks. It was all slashslashrunswingmoveslashswingstrafeslash in a flurry, interruppted by bouts of ass-fighting or some other whored move.

Sure, they really "improved" upon the flurry moves in Academy - hell, even the single-player saber duels are now a bunch of purty useless trail-inducing slash-fests. That's the game.

I didn't vote, because I haven't played JAMP yet. And I'm not sure I'm gonna get around to it, either. :p

But just some thoughts.

klock501
10-14-2003, 04:08 PM
Small bump for those who didn't see this when it was posted.

Darth_Misery
10-14-2003, 04:13 PM
I feel that the sabers are perfectly balanced across all weapon types. Rather than just state that, I'll go into detail as to why.

Single Saber

By far the most versatile weapon in the game. 3 stances, 3 katas, 3 special moves. It's also, in my opinion, the most challenging weapon to play with. Against the whirly-twirly of dual saber and staff users, a single blade player really has to be on his or her toes to be effective. Timing and positioning are critical to be successful with a single saber in this game. Knowing the swing animations of the other saber types is also a must to effectively use the "holes" in their swings against them and to maximize the Single Saber's wide array of deadly parries.

Besides the ability to have 3 different swing speeds to suit any situation, the single saber has, hands down, the most lethal counters for the special moves.

Blue Stance Lunge: kata killer (wait for the animation to wind down and use the lunge; works very well on Saber Shield, Staff Baton Twirl and any Single Saber kata).

Medium Stance DFA: butterfly killer (timing is critical but you can stop a butterfly dead cold with this; if performed correctly, results in massive damage or instant death).

Red Stance swings: another kata killer (works best on Saber Shield; use a vertical strike at the end of their animation and split their head open; also great for knocking someone's hilt out of their hand).



Dual Sabers

The Dual Sabers are the most defensive saber type in the game. Amazingly, most people use it for pure offense. The Dual Saber has an amazing parry that delivers amazing damage. Additionally, the Dual Saber has the butterfly (not only a great offensive tool but it's also great to get you out of a sticky situation while keeping yourself covered). The swings, in my opinion, require some serious precision feathering to control accurately.

Switching off one blade switches you to the Single Saber Blue Stance which contains the Lunge (see above).

My only beef with the Dual Sabers is that the specials (Shield and Dual Slicer) are too easy to counter (you're totaly stationary) and very risky to attempt against good players.



Saber Staff

Much more precise than the Dual Sabers and easier to control as well. Not as defensive as the Dual Sabers but more than makes up for it in the offense department. Has the butterfly (again a great offensive or defensive tool but be careful of those Single Saber users ....see above).

Also, the 4-way kick is great if you like charging into a group and isolating your intended victim. I don't use the kick to set up ground kills (any village idiot can roll or kick out of a knockdown). I usually use it to make a clearer path to my victim.

The kick is also one of the best counters for an incoming butterfly. Time it right and deliver a swift kick at the end of their butterfly for easy damage and usually an instant knockdown (which gives you time to reposition for something nastier when they get up).

The kick is also extremely effective against ANY kata. Again, timing is everything but it's easy damage if done right.

The Staff kata is powerful but, in my opinion, has too long of a windup. It's very easy to avoid and counter. Same goes for the Baton Twirl (stationary; can be countered easily).

Switching off the south end of the Staff leaves you in the Single Blade Yellow Stance (minus the DFA). The best overall Single Saber stance for speed and damage. I think it's a bit awkward myself when using the Staff but it has it's uses.


As long as you've taken the time and effort to learn the intricacies of the saber combat engine, it really doesn't matter which weapon you choose. Each type has advantages and disadvantages and all can be used successfully and effectively in ANY situation regardless of what your opponents are using against you.

See you online!

ScaryGuy
10-14-2003, 04:27 PM
when i first heard of JA (months and months ago of course) i thought for sure i would be using the saber staff all the time for SP and MP, but i tried it and it didnt work out well for me. if i practiced it more im sure i would get good with it, but i just like the single saber more mainly cause of its versatility and the deadliness of the red stance. i think the dual and staff are ineresting and good for some people, but for me the single saber rocks!

SpaceButler13
10-14-2003, 05:10 PM
I use the single mostly, and a lot of times I'll be beating someone who has duals or a staff and I'll just be killed nearly instantly. I also feel like aside from the lunge blue is worthless now because I have to use mostly red stand-off tactics against the new sabers, because if I get close I'll have some very random and very instant death.

GunShark
10-14-2003, 05:16 PM
My personal choice of weaonry is the duel sabers, some people think you need no skill to use them but you do. They dont have a far hit distance like staff or single saber (which hit distance is further) so you have to get much closer to your opponent, also when sabering left and right, which makes you twirl about, there are times when the moves leave wide open gaps for an attack to be made and the special moves like the saber shield are easy to pull off but it's even easier for your opponent to kill you whilst a special move is finishing which is a big draw back, but on the whole i fell it's balanced as duel sabers can be quick when used right and if you do manage to catch someone out with a special move whether their new or veterans they don't stand much of a chance of surviving if done right. When fighting single saberists i find most use red stance and time their attacks since i have to get really close to them to hit makes it more dangerous for me since a good hit from red stance can near enough cause 100% health loss. But that just makes it all the more FUN :)

klock501
10-14-2003, 10:06 PM
Very interesting replies. For my part, I feel that although single can beat staff/dual, it takes a bit more skill/patiene. What is bothering me is that everyone points out that advantages to single are that there are 3 different katas and 3 different special moves.

First off, blue stance, minus the lunge is fairly useless in a duel against dual/staff users imho (Maybe i'm just a newb?)

Yellow, DFA is very hard to land and the regular swings are ok, but wihtout the range of red stance, you'll have to trade blows with staff/dual and thats not something you'll win.

Red, only option against dual/staff right now. The DFA is a mixed bag. The randomness of the damage makes it pretty unrealiable, they should fix the damage, and there's no real danger of it being spammed considering that all special moves take force power now.

As for the Katas, personally, I don't find too much difference between them. I won't argue they have different uses, but if we're talking about a 1on1 situation the variation of the three katas are limited.

I think if there were to be alterations to help single, I think yellow DFA needs to hit easier, red DFA damage constant. Make blue useful, perhaps make it be able to block. Increase single blocking against dual/staff slightly.

Thats just my 2 cents.

Comments are welcome.

Prime
10-14-2003, 11:14 PM
Whichever one I pick (usually the single), I seem to get satisfactory results with. There are pros and cons to each, but overall I think they are pretty well balanced...

Vanor
10-14-2003, 11:25 PM
I think the dual and staff are a bit more powerful then the single, but not enough for Raven to adjust things.

dual/staff users require slightly less skill to do well then single saber users, no matter who they're facing. Single vs dual, staff vs staff, dual vs staff, ect...

But then again this seems to make a great deal of sense logically... Given that all the blades are made up of the same thing, a staff would realisticly be more deadly then a single blade, same goes for dual blades. Simply due to the fact that with dual/staff I stand a chance of hitting you with both blades durning one attack, which isn't true of a single blade.

That doesn't mean that single sabers are underpowered, or that anything needs to be changed. It simply means people need to accept the fact that to win with a single saber requires a bit more skill.

Now as the example listed in the first post... I don't understand why he would get so upset. So he lost one duel... Big deal. The fact that someone got lucky once is by no means a way to decide the game is unbalanced.

I mean that's what happend, the one guy got a lucky hit in, the fact that he's a button masher doesn't mater in the least... Just means he got lucky.

DungeonShade
10-14-2003, 11:38 PM
I like to play with single bec of versitality but I think staff is better in a non-duel environment. Although single does have a wide variety of moves, I can never get them to work. RDFA damage is weak - better off with an overhead slash. I rarely, if ever, land a YDFA and the blue crouch slash seems to get blocked a lot for me. Not to mention that my saber gets knocked away half the time when I try to block a dual/staff swing (tried different styles while blocking too). Right now I think staff is the best, but with more practice and learning how to aim with the DFAs I think single could overcome staff.

Sam Fisher
10-14-2003, 11:49 PM
It really depends on what my opponents are using. If they are using single, I use staff or single. If they are using staff, I use duel sabers. If they are using duel sabers, I use duel sabers. I found all the moves, which ones that can exploit your opponents saber, etc...

GunShark
10-14-2003, 11:58 PM
Also another thing to point out is that the duelist only has yellow stance with both sabers and blue stance with single blade, staffers have yellow using both blades and red using single blade. If i remember right from JKO blue is a defensive stance designed to block incomming attacks the best and is fast so many attacks can be made (obi wans preferred method), yellow is more of an in between, not as good at blocking as blue and not as powerful as red not fast like blue and not slow like red a sort of stance for all occasions (i think yoda favours this type of combat), and then red which is crap at defence but perfect for attack but slow due to the heavy swings required for damage and the most aggresive (favoured by Mace Windu).
Thats my idea but i could be waaaayyyyy off the target, never mind if iam i'm sure someone will correct me :)

CastleBravo
10-15-2003, 12:23 AM
Actually, I think it is decently ballanced.

I seem to get my most kills with singe saber red style, but you really have to pay attention and have good timing... single sabers don't seem tolerant of being a little sloppy.

The staff seems the most versatile to me, with good specials and good reach combined with solid damage and kick moves. It "feels" the most cool and acrobatic, and seems like the most fun in single player to me... there is just so much stuff to do with it. But in MP I never seem to get that many kills with it, and its defense doesn't seem to be as good.

Dual actually seems like a sort of weak style to me. Most of the specials outright suck or leave you really vulnerable, the reach is short and damage per hit is low (though you do get alot of them). The only thing that makes it get alot of kills is by using the yaw cheat and jumping into crowds... which doesn't give me much heartburn, but seems like a really BORING way to play the game. It is better in single player, where it seems to give you better defense against beam weapons and you fight hordes of weak enemies more often. Oh, and you can move and use the twirl attack to bulldoze bad guys (unlike MP where you are anchored to the ground).

Kurgan
10-15-2003, 01:14 AM
I play with saberdamagescale 2 both in duels and other game modes. I feel they are all well balanced.


Also another thing to point out is that the duelist only has yellow stance with both sabers and blue stance with single blade, staffers have yellow using both blades and red using single blade. If i remember right from JKO blue is a defensive stance designed to block incomming attacks the best and is fast so many attacks can be made (obi wans preferred method), yellow is more of an in between, not as good at blocking as blue and not as powerful as red not fast like blue and not slow like red a sort of stance for all occasions (i think yoda favours this type of combat), and then red which is crap at defence but perfect for attack but slow due to the heavy swings required for damage and the most aggresive (favoured by Mace Windu).
Thats my idea but i could be waaaayyyyy off the target, never mind if iam i'm sure someone will correct me

Don't worry. In MP Dual Sabers and Saberstaff each have their own unique stance. Turning off one of the Dual Sabers gives you Fast Stance with no Kata. Turning off one end of the Saber Staff gives you Medium Stance with no Kata and no Flipping Slash (aka "Yellow DFA").

While the Dual Sabers and Saberstaff each appear to have "yellow stance" don't be fooled, it's really nothing like Medium Stance with the single saber. And in team games it's not yellow, it's ORANGE!

Fast Stance is great for blocking blaster shots and reflecting them back at the shooter, but gets knocked away much more easily by powerful swings such as those from Strong Stance. Fast is also "faster" but weaker and has less range than the others. There are lots of other pros and cons.

The Saberstaff SEEMS powerful, but people often forget that all those fancy spinning moves and kicks are easy to dodge and leave you open to attack at several points (the same applies to the Dual Sabers). They all take skill to use, you just have to learn the intricacies of each one and how they fight vs. the other types and against other weapons.

Single Saber may seem less flashy, but people forget that it has three stance specific special moves and three Katas (adding up to six specials!), by virtue of having three stances. Dual Sabers has four specials total, Saberstaff has three.

Iblis Reborn
10-15-2003, 05:23 AM
i use the staff cause i like having the kicks
i think they are pretty ballance though
granted single is harder to use ive encoutered prenty of ppl who know what they are doing and have the skill to use it

there was alot of bitching when the game first came out but i think after ppl practiced for a bit they saw that they really were pretty balanced

im having alot of fun while playing online and i hope everyone else is too

Prime
10-15-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I play with saberdamagescale 2 both in duels and other game modes. I feel they are all well balanced. Is that the setting on your server, Kurgan?

Troopr-Undr-Fir
10-15-2003, 02:41 PM
sorry to ask this here, but what is the name of your sever kurgan, cause ive never played on it(also don't kick me cause i have 56k, it just pisses me off cause it happens a lot)

oh yeah and my name is well...Troopr-Undr-Fir, ChinaManInACan, or TheMuffinMan

ScaryGuy
10-15-2003, 03:53 PM
like i said in my earlier post, i prefer the single saber because of its versatility. but ill tell ya what, when im up against a skilled player with a saber staff, i get worried. when used correctly, the saber staff gets the job done quickest! ive seen so many people with the staff run away and stay very defensive with the staff, but this is the wrong thing to do because thats what the staff is designed for: powerful offense. a skilled player with a saber staff is quite deadly, and i feel this will become even more apparent in the future when more people practice it and learn its all about offense.

a clanmate of mine uses the dual sabers, and he uses them very well. he fights backwards, waiting for enemies to attack him from behind then he releases furys of attacks backwards. ive never seen anyone else do it, let alone do it as good as he does.

HiryuSwift
10-15-2003, 04:01 PM
I use the single saber all the time, mainly because the only people who say the single saber is overpowered are Dual/Staff special spamming n00bs :p. With that I believe that the staff is only SLIGHTLY overpowered, the butterfly is the reason for this, one butterfly takes 60+ health even if all of it doesn't hit. Other than that and the cheap yaw stuff, I believe that the game is perfectly balanced.

darkshadow26
10-15-2003, 04:16 PM
in my opinion that the game is balanced all sabers and styles have weakness and i like the ja then jo in my opinion

SpaceButler13
10-15-2003, 04:43 PM
Maybe some of our problems aren't with saber balance but hit-detection (and the really really low single-saber parry). I mean, sometimes one hit yellow to the head will nearly kill but other times it does nothing. The damage from everything just feels so irregular that I don't know what's good and what's not yet. And then there are all those times when the saber goes right through without doing a thing.

Luc Solar
10-15-2003, 05:15 PM
If there are 2 equally skilled guys of which one uses the staff and the other uses a single saber, I doubt the single saberists could ever beat the staff-user in a FFA.

One-on-one, perhaps. But in a FFA? I don't think so. And you know what? That actually makes sense. :)

Vanor
10-15-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
I doubt the single saberists could ever beat the staff-user in a FFA.
You mean beat as in the staff-user would have more kills at the end of the round, or reach the kill limit first?

In that case, yeah I'd agree. Staff's and Dual's are a bit more effective at killing then singles are. But like you said, that does make sense.

Kengo
10-15-2003, 06:49 PM
I think its fairly well balanced - I tend towards Dual sabers myself, I liked using light style in JO and for me its kind of an upgraded light style (sort of). The only thing I am a little unsure about is the way that in the manul it describes the Dual saber style as rare and the saber staff style as very rare, and if you go on most FFA servers you'll find that single sabers are the rarest type used. Maybe this is just the noveltry of the other styles, but for me to simulate the styles that are rarer they could have made them super powerful when learned well (as you would expect them to be), but really hard to master, and not much good for a beginner. Still, that would have detracted from the fun for quite a few people I guess. Anyway, dual sabers looks really great...so I'm not complaining :)

Iblis Reborn
10-15-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Kengo
The only thing I am a little unsure about is the way that in the manul it describes the Dual saber style as rare and the saber staff style as very rare, and if you go on most FFA servers you'll find that single sabers are the rarest type used.


i think they meant rare in the SW universe and not really in the games (mp especially)