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View Full Version : How about REALITY (for SW, that is)? *spoilers*


Master_Keralys
10-14-2003, 08:37 PM
Okay, did it strike anyone else as extremely odd that wherever you went there were no civilians? There were only lots of bad guys. Don't get me wrong, I like killing bad guys. But if you're on Coruscant, or riding a train through Corellia, or working your way around Ord Mantell, there should be civilians around. There should be people you have to protect from the depradations of evil ones. Think back to the way it was in JK. Sure, there weren't a lot of them, but they were there. And it added a lot of depth. Sadly, the series has followed most other FPS's and gone to the kill everything in sight mode (except when other Jedi are around). It doesn't feel right for the SW universe. That's what made SW great, it felt lived in. Now, this game rocks, but little things like that would really enhance the feel of the game.

Master William
10-14-2003, 09:22 PM
civilians = npcs, more npcs = lag = whiners = angry threads and emails = irritating :)

Blamer
10-14-2003, 10:20 PM
Well, that wasn't the attitude of the JK1 team back when a Voodoo2 was top of the line...and they just so happened to make one of the best FPS games ever.

Tinny
10-14-2003, 10:34 PM
what about the jawas, some droids and that dude uh forgot his name oh... kyle

Darth_Pnut
10-14-2003, 10:34 PM
*MILD SPOILER*

There was the chiss Bartender in the Rancor level, the non mutant one the one where you saved the prisoners from the hutt. That was it though.....and I killed him anyway....he reminded me too much of some other chiss bartender.....yea...

D_P!

Kurgan
10-15-2003, 01:16 AM
Limitations of the engine...

JK1 wasn't as graphically powerful as Q3, so it had a lot less work to do, and could display more npc's... and when you think about it, it still didn't have a lot.

For now if you want more "realistic locales" in the Star Wars universe your best bet is a game like SWG.

Drivian Taluus
10-15-2003, 01:25 AM
SWG? No Jedi (yet), imbalanced classes, and BUGS? I'll stay away until it becomes worth $14.99 a month, thankyewverymuch. No offense, but the press has been less than kind to it, and it'll be awhile before it gets good (like most MMORPG's).

Kurgan
10-15-2003, 02:31 AM
SWG? No Jedi (yet), imbalanced classes, and BUGS? I'll stay away until it becomes worth $14.99 a month, thankyewverymuch. No offense, but the press has been less than kind to it, and it'll be awhile before it gets good (like most MMORPG's).

My point is, its RPG potential is far greater than JA will ever be, and it has the more realistic environments and "crowds" than you will ever see in JA.

Thousands of players interacting in a persistant online world vs. 16 players in a 'world' (more like a house or a small room) where most objects can't be interacted with and you have a tiny tiny number of npc's (if any).

It's like the difference between two kids playing on a jungle gym, vs. Disney World.

StormHammer
10-15-2003, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
My point is, its RPG potential is far greater than JA will ever be, and it has the more realistic environments and "crowds" than you will ever see in JA.

I don't think it has anything to do with RPG potential, personally.

I too missed more neutral NPCs in the game. It's not that I wanted to go around talking to any of them - but they help to set the scene to make an environment more 'believable', while at the same time offering opportunities for you to either protect or kill them depending on your disposition.

The way that NPCs factored into the 'moral scale' in Jedi Knight, and thereby affected your path through the Force (Light or Dark side), was simply inspired, and I would personally welcome it's return for any further games in this series.

And the simple fact is that it was possible to include NPCs in JA. The Sandcrawler level is a prime example of this. On that map you had small groups of Jawas (in threes), who were being accosted by Sand people. Now - the second time I played through that level, I used Mind Trick on the Sand people - and by the time I reached the big wall (where it says you can't go that way), I pretty much had an army of them on my tail - and I could see them attacking all the Jawas I had passed along the way.

Needless to say - there were a lot of Sand people and Jawas on screen at the same time, and I didn't experience any slow down on my system - or if I did, it was hardly noticeable.

So in my view, it would have been possible to include more NPCs in more of the levels where they were sorely needed, like the 'tram' and Coruscant.

Apart from the Sandcrawler level, where I could protect the Jawas from attack - I didn't feel much like a Light-side Jedi for most of the game. When Luke tells you that you are going to planet X and you can practice your 'diplomatic' skills - and then just kill everything in sight, there's something wrong somewhere. ;)

JediLurker
10-15-2003, 03:25 AM
I agree more NPCs, while a small thing in the end, would have made the game a great deal better. Especially, as Stormhammer pointed out, if they affected your dark\light status. Having one single event in an entire game decide something as huge as that is rather lame in my opinion.

Oh well...not long until KOTOR and Deus Ex 2. My copy of JA will probably start collecting dust right about then.

SpaceButler13
10-15-2003, 03:27 AM
I really miss the JK1 npc's too. And the bartender didn't even say anything. The jawas and droids squeaked a little I guess........ Something I've always wondered. You go through all these imperial outposts or whever it happens to be and you kill all the people in wonderful fps fashion. What do the droids do? Lord of the Flies: Droid Edition?

StormHammer
10-15-2003, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by SpaceButler13
What do the droids do? Lord of the Flies: Droid Edition?

:rofl:

ROFLMAO! :haha: That is so funny. You just made my day. :D

Pedro The Hutt
10-15-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Darth_Pnut
*MILD SPOILER*

There was the chiss Bartender in the Rancor level, the non mutant one the one where you saved the prisoners from the hutt. That was it though.....and I killed him anyway....he reminded me too much of some other chiss bartender.....yea...

D_P!

I think it's the same one XD he decided to relocate after his run in with Kyle and since Reelo died he had no one to take care of his.... garbages. So why not relocate XD


Originally posted by Stormhammer
When Luke tells you that you are going to planet X and you can practice your 'diplomatic' skills - and then just kill everything in sight, there's something wrong somewhere.

"You call this a diplomatic solution?"
"No I call it agressive negotiations."

Master_Keralys
10-15-2003, 03:03 PM
It is ironic that being a Jedi means killing everything in sight. This game seems to have gone the way of Quake and Doom. Unfortunately.

I don't think it would have been that difficult on places like Coruscant. After all there were all sorts of Jedi on Korriban, fighting with all sorts of Reborn. Like, six of each at once at a couple points. If the computer can handle that, which is probably the most graphically intense part of the game, then it ought to be able to handle a few more NPC's where they'd make a big difference.

I too miss the days of JK1 and a true choice between light and dark. One decision, not affected in the least by your choice of force powers, seems somewhat strange to me as well.

Master_Keralys
10-23-2003, 06:43 PM
Here's a thought: the modding ocmmunity could create mods with civilians. :) It shouldn't be that hard to program in more neutral npc's.

Maybe in the next game we'll get to protect people as Jedi really would.

babywax
10-23-2003, 07:38 PM
It WOULD be nice to have the option to go diplomatic on some missions, with NPCs and crud, although I would most likely slice and dice, it's more fun when you know there's the option. It would also be nice to be rated on how many people you killed when you didn't exactly have to kill them. Wouldn't be hard to program either, I don't think.

Wes Janson
10-23-2003, 07:46 PM
I don't buy that "engine limitation" business. I just don't see why they couldn't add in a few civilian NPCs. Other than Jawas and droids of course.

Diplomacy would have been refreshing in this game. I know it's not supposed to compete with KOTOR (two entirely different games), but being a Jedi student, Jedi don't always resort to mass decapatations.

Oh well.

Oh, and for the record, SWG is great. Yes it has bugs, but you guys act as if no other MMORPG has had any problems.

shukrallah
10-23-2003, 08:27 PM
(im a mapper ;) )

It couldnt have been the system resources. You know why?

The way it works is, there are triggers all around the level, before you walk into a room, you pass by a trigger, which is connected to a (some) NPC(s) When you walk through the trigger (it is as big as the room, so there is no way you can walk around it, unless you use noclip thats why your advised not use noclip, reasons for that include, no npcs will spawn, because you pass through the trigger, and cutscenes will screw up, because the npc may or may not spawn.) Anyways, back on the subject, you pass through the trigger which makes the npc(s) spawn. So before you pass by, the NPC doesnt exist, so it isnt drawn! No lag at all. After you pass by its drawn, once its dead it disapears so that it will free up video memory.

Now then, my idea is simple. Say your in a city, before you walk into a room or building, you hit the trigger that spawns a couple of NPCs 1 or 2 civilians, and maybe a dark jedi attacking them. When you walk in, i script them running away, into other room etc, and the dark jedi does whatever he wants to do... so you go in and kill the jedi. When your done, and leave the room, you walk out, and then as you walk further into the level, i tell the game to remove the civilians (if you killed them it doesnt matter) so once they are removed your vid. card gets some memory back (not that it will get that much, depending on the number of NPCs)

Its not that the game cant handle it, it just has to be done in the proper way.

Giddamon
10-23-2003, 09:30 PM
Does ayone remember Drazen Island mod for JK1? That was a good civilian interaction :cool: :D

cheapiDiot~~
10-23-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys

I don't think it would have been that difficult on places like Coruscant. After all there were all sorts of Jedi on Korriban, fighting with all sorts of Reborn. Like, six of each at once at a couple points. If the computer can handle that, which is probably the most graphically intense part of the game, then it ought to be able to handle a few more NPC's where they'd make a big difference.


I play JA with a 32meg TNT2, and the korriban map had no lag at all even with all the jedi running around (but only around 40fps...fast considering how old tat card is)(at 800x600 tho :( )
(but some parts the coruscant tram level had dropped to around 10fps......oi~)
so as long as the #of npcs are not tat much....it doesnt hit performance....
yea and i agree about having only 1 event determine light/dark
we should be able to kill rosh more than once!:D jk~

Remirol Nacnud
10-24-2003, 07:18 AM
Well, in a lot of levels you're supposed to be in a 'scummy' area, so most of the civilians ARE bad guys.
Obviously any random guy on the street in places like Nar Shadar or tatooine is supposed to say "hey look! I fight! I must join in! Oh look, that guy can't be shot at because he's using a light sabre! Oh look, that guy just got cut in half!"*runs in to the fight*

Pnut_Man
10-24-2003, 10:46 AM
There's always player-map sp levels in the future :D

Just look at Commenor, it MAY have some civilian treats in the further installments ;)

Master_Keralys
10-24-2003, 03:28 PM
Are you hinting at something there, Pnut_Master?

Lag couldn't be an issue; I think it was probably just more than they wanted to deal with as far as scritpting. However, I feel that having other people around to deal with would have incredibly enhanced the feel of the game. I mean, how fun was it to go evil and kill all the civilians back in JK1? And it really meant something then. It also adds a lot of authenticity to the feel of a game when you have things like that. AFter all, being a Jedi is about protecting people. Killing should be a last resort, not the first thing that comes to mind. Now, since this is a shooter game, that's going to be different, but the aforementioned example with a dark Jedi going after civilians would be awesome - join him, or kill him to save the people!

Rad Blackrose
10-24-2003, 04:03 PM
It is ironic that being a Jedi means killing everything in sight. This game seems to have gone the way of Quake and Doom. Unfortunately.

God forbid the first game in the entire Dark Forces series had you go around killing everyone...

:rolleyes:

Master_Keralys
10-24-2003, 06:00 PM
Ah, it finally comes up. I've been waitng for this :evil6:.

There's a big difference between Dark Forces - where you're a merc and all you should really care about is getting paid - and Jedi Knight, JK2, and JA, where you should care about saving other people. That's the point of being a Jedi, isn't it?

shukrallah
10-24-2003, 06:28 PM
That true, but the scripting would be annoying. Plus ive heard the it was a rush job anyways. Scripting takes time (unless you want the civilians to just stand there!)

IG-64
10-24-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
unless you want the civilians to just stand there!

like they do in galaxies? ::

Rad Blackrose
10-24-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
Ah, it finally comes up. I've been waitng for this :evil6:.

There's a big difference between Dark Forces - where you're a merc and all you should really care about is getting paid - and Jedi Knight, JK2, and JA, where you should care about saving other people. That's the point of being a Jedi, isn't it?

Note to fool: Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight. Ring a bell to you? Yes, that's right, the ENTIRE Jedi Knight premise is a subset to the Dark Forces series.

Hell, Jedi Knight II payed homage to the origonal Dark Forces, when you did not have force powers and the saber right off the bat while playing as Kyle.

And blowing the hell out of the Dark Trooper project, doesn't that count towards the saving people bit?

As far as your Jedi argument goes, check the last scene after you blow the Arc Hammer to oblivion, it comes out of Vader's own mouth.

So no, there is no difference.

Master_Keralys
10-24-2003, 08:19 PM
I understand that. I also understand that a mercenary has fewer commitments to that sort of thing. I also understand that the game engine DF was developed on was probably not able to do this sort of thing. This engine is fully capable of realizing it; the droids and jawas showed that.

Luke, that's a good call. It was a rush job. Thank you so very much LEC. We love you!

However, it would be nice to see that kind of attention to detail in future games of this series or even just games like it.

The point about the scummy areas is good too. However, I wasn't suggesting that those get the attention. I think that would have been better for Coruscant's underlevels, not its highest levels. (Speaking of which, why would a crimelord be at the top of the kilometers-high towers of Coruscant? It seems a little odd to me, since that's where the high end people live. Maybe he's in the government too. And if they knew about the crime lord before you got sent in, why did they wait till he was sending out assassin droids to take him out?:confused: Just a couple of thoughts) Coruscant's upper levels should have nice people around that you have to protect. Think about how much life there was there the movies!

-DK-Squee
10-24-2003, 08:47 PM
i like crowds and crap like that. since i dont have an x-box (lol) i cant wait for KOTOR to come out for PC

Rad Blackrose
10-24-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
I also understand that the game engine DF was developed on was probably not able to do this sort of thing.

You also have to take into consideration that DF is [b]how old?[b]

Hold on... let me get the CD case... around 1995, I believe. That's the days of Doom/Quake.

Giddamon
10-24-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
Coruscant's upper levels should have nice people around that you have to protect. Think about how much life there was there the movies!

On Coruscant you run from a roof to another and last time I checked there aren't much civilians that spend their day on a roof.

If you look below you will see all the Coruscant traffic, you may try to jump on one of those "cars" down below anakin-style and see if the driver is willing to talk with you :D

Master_Keralys
11-04-2003, 08:25 PM
Let's see if we can bump this ;) You're on roofs, sure. But that doesn't mean that there are no civilians. Come on, it's Coruscant! Course, I still think we should have been a couple hundred floors down. And the layout of the level made little sense. There weren't even doors into the buildings - locked doors make sense. How else do the get outside - jump out the window? My point was that it would have made the game more real feeling if they'd had civilians here or there.

Dethsaint
11-05-2003, 02:45 PM
I REALLY missed the civilians in this game. I mean for crying out loud, not even in mission 1 are there civilians. (Maybe it's just me, but it would be odd if the mercs had the authority to seal off the area because 2 Jedi and a monkey are spoiling their plans.)

As for Coruscant I was really disappointed. It is the biggest city in the universe but it is represented by huge black boxes with crummy yellow and blue squares as windows. Where are all the bars, shops and people? Where is the intense city speeder chase? Why can't I go pee on a public lavatory? :D

The motives of Raven and LEC are hidden, but not adding civilians is like... Indiana Jones without his hat :cool:

tnd
11-05-2003, 02:51 PM
yeah, i agree, civilian npc's should be there...the PS2 game Bounty Hunter has lots of npc's wandering around...try that one!


dennis

Kurgan
11-06-2003, 06:55 AM
The point of my comments was missed... if you want a game with tons of NPC's wandering around in a realistic environment, a dedicated FPS game like JA is not the place to look.

It might suck that SWG isn't an FPS, but it has loads of npc's and its multiplayer.

More graphically primitive games can also use the memory they save on eye candy to make more npc's wandering around in the environment.

And creating those huge environments and supporting all those players comes at a price... hence why you have a monthly fee with SWG.

For now, you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Sorry...


But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point.


If you're justing wanting the number of npc's in a map that JK/MotS had, you can already do that if you make your own maps though.

babywax
11-06-2003, 07:16 AM
Playing this game through, I remember there being about 12-20 NPCs in some areas, I have some screens of many more than that on my system, which isn't exactly state of the art (GeForce 2 GTS). It didn't lag, this was in multiplayer with about 30 NPCs on screen. In the beginning of the map t2_trip, I spawned a TON of rebels and droid assassins, HUGE battle, until my game crashed, but I think that was a bug with the npc spawn cheat code.
With about 30-35 NPCs on screen, I lost about 5 FPS! That's on my old system too.

It's easily do-able. We're not asking for huge expansive land scapes Kurgan, we just want a little life in the game! It IS Jedi Knight, isn't it?

Master_Keralys
11-06-2003, 05:06 PM
Exactly. I made that point earlier. The engine can easily handle the NPC's. Think about the battles on Korriban. And a couple open areas would be nice, with a little less linearity. The engine should be able to do that, too.

ExcelsioN
11-06-2003, 06:35 PM
SW:KOTOR will be JA with npc's and D&D rules. And lots of other rpg stuff...

JA could do with some, and some of it's levels (like coruscant) could do with npc's. But remember the starting level from MoTs and the spaceport one, where you played Mara Jade.

Those were both great levels and JA should be more like them. In the old SW films, you often saw the characters in towns (the cantina in ANH for example).

Hopefully KOTOR will bring this kind of gaming, and leave JA to do what it wants. ;)

G_Moo
11-06-2003, 07:15 PM
As far as the "Kill Everything in Sight" problem:

Hey, you guys aren't thinking like Jedi's. You don't have to kill everyone you see. All you have to do is disarm them, like a nice little good Jedi would do. Force Pull the weapons out of there hands, and they'll surrender, instead of fighting you.
I first noticed this when I was running around with the same mentality: "Gee, if I'm such a good guy, and not using my force power to attack, like Obi Wan said, why are all these guys dying?"
Then, in the last level of JA, I noticed that the students of the Jedi Academy weren't killing everyone; instead the stormtroopers were running around with their hands in the air. That's when I figured it out.
'Pull' the weapons from their hands, use a bit of ammo, and do it again (you have to deplete your ammo, otherwise when you pull the weapon out and, instead of picking it up for yourself, it'll sit on the ground, and they'll grab it back and use it against you again).
There, now you're a good Jedi, and the game becomes alot harder.

I agree that it seems a bit silly that its one event that turns you from Light to Dark. Perhaps it should've been a build up of various things like which force powers you choose, which you use, and how you deal with combat, but that smacks alot of an RPG, which I think is something the designers wanted to avoid.

By the way, when exactly were you going to interact with nuetral NPCs? To me, the dumb droids and jawas just got in the way. I mean, were you going to strike up a coversation?

"Hey, how ya doin'?"

"I'm alright. Say, I was wondering, did you see any cultists running around, trailing chaos and havoc behind them?"

"Oh, yeah, I did. As a matter of fact, there's one now, sticking his lightsaber into your back."

"Gee! Thanks! Excuse me now while I die and restart this level."

Ummmm... Did you get anywhere, here?

Yeah, it would've been cute to see a bunch of people running away from the combat instead of joining in, but why, really, is that so neccesary?

And how exactly would diplocamy work? You get into a conversation, and pick your response from a list (ala 'Fallout', if any of you played it), and see what happens? If you mess up, then you failed the mission and go on? So? Pick another mission and continue. Because you'll never be back around that part of the galaxy, your failing will have no meaning in the long run, so why bother including the idea?
Instead, the designers chose to to allow missions that you had to complete using skill, not picking random conversation quotes.

StormHammer
11-06-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
The point of my comments was missed... if you want a game with tons of NPC's wandering around in a realistic environment, a dedicated FPS game like JA is not the place to look.

While I would normally agree with you with any other FPS, I'd have to disagree regarding this one. Firstly because the precedent was already set in the original Jedi Knight. Secondly because of the basic premise of Jedi Academy, in that you are a student of the Force, and Luke actually tells you about using diplomacy, etc. Thirdly...this series is moving slightly away from the 'dedicated FPS' style, which is no bad thing.

But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point.

If you could try it, I would say go and play Mace Griffin: Bounty Hunter. Unfortunately I believe it's release in the US was canned.

The graphics are good (possibly not as good as something like KOTOR, but they're still good - and probably comparable to JO), some of the levels are huge, and it has quite a few NPCs hanging around where they logically ought to be. Some run when the shooting starts...others like security details stand and fight. Some of the characters will speak to you. It also has some nice seamless transitions between space combat and FPS action.

You might also like to check out No One Lives Forever 2, particularly the Indian missions, where you have civilians in the streets, walking around (who will offer passing comments), while you're trying to sneak past the local police. In my view, the character detail and animation in NOLF2 is better than JA - although some of the models are lower poly counts. The graphics overall are better than JA's, IMHO.

Elite Force II - another Quake 3 tech game with comparable graphics to JA - also had some levels with a few NPC aliens - and lots of enemies on screen at the same time. Of course, places like Starfleet Academy and the Enterprise were chock full of NPC characters.

Take your pick. ;)


Originally posted by G_Moo
Hey, you guys aren't thinking like Jedi's. You don't have to kill everyone you see. All you have to do is disarm them, like a nice little good Jedi would do. Force Pull the weapons out of there hands, and they'll surrender, instead of fighting you.
I first noticed this when I was running around with the same mentality: "Gee, if I'm such a good guy, and not using my force power to attack, like Obi Wan said, why are all these guys dying?"

Well...the only problem with this idea is that you only start off with a low level Force pull in the earlier missions - so it is impossible to pull the weapons from the hands of your enemies. Only when your Force Pull level goes up can you actually grab the weapons out of their hands.

Another Force power that I tried to use, but without much success, was Mind Trick. Unless you can quickly duck out of sight...the effect wears off, they spot you, and you're back to square one. I know, because I tried it on the Sandcrawler level, and ended up with a howling army of Sand People after me - who still attacked the Jawas.

As for interacting with NPCs...I don't particularly care about that RPG-centric idea. I don't want to go up and enter into some long conversation with an NPC character. Just having them say something as they spot me would be enough - similar to the way Half-Life did it. They offer a comment...and you can 'use' them to get another comment. Simple and effective. What's wrong with that?

Because you'll never be back around that part of the galaxy, your failing will have no meaning in the long run, so why bother including the idea?

The whole 'idea' is to breathe some life into the different environments. It is simply unrealistic having every level populated by people out to kill you. When you watch the movies, towns and cities are bustling centres...and only when the shooting starts do people start clearing the streets.

The other 'idea' is to return you to that morality scale. So if you kill innocents (or allow too many to die when you could have prevented it), you turn to the Dark Side...if you protect them, you go to the Light Side. I find that preferable to simply picking whatever Force power I choose at a whim...or having the choice whether or not to kill one person, and decide my fate, when I've already slaughtered a few hundred. It simply doesn't make sense in the overall context of the game. You are supposed to be a student learning the ways of the force, and not setting out to massacre people on every planet you visit. That is the context, to my mind - but the gameplay itself didn't actually give you that choice.

As for earlier comments about Jedi Knight and Dark Forces...if you actually cast your mind back, the aim of each level was not to kill everything in sight. In Dark Forces, I can remember just running through some areas without killing the Stormies - and just avoiding their fire. The game didn't log how many kills you made in each level - unlike the other FPS games of the time. Immediately that emphasised the fact that you should be focusing on the mission at hand, rather than clearing every level.

In Jedi Knight, when you started to get your Force powers going - you could pull weapons out of the hands of your enemies, and leave them. You could also use 'Persuasion' (a much better blanket-effect power, when compared to Mind Trick) in the later levels to simply walk past them. Again, the emphasis of the game was not on killing everyone or everything. You could complete the level with half the enemies intact...as long as you achieved your objective for the level.

So forgive me while I disgree they were supposed to be slaughter-fests. :P

Master_Keralys
11-07-2003, 03:13 PM
Well said, Stormhammer. :D

I found it incredibly difficult to be a "Jedi" and to actually not just kill everyone in sight. As a side note, if you yank the guns out of a stormie's hands, and they pick up another one, they'll shoot you again.

Perhaps the next JK game (if there is one) will include these kinds of details. After all, it would be something to set the game apart and make it better; it would make a real difference in how people see the game. It would also help to develop the differences between the JK series and most other FPS games that Stormhammer was talking about.

Celluzion
11-08-2003, 08:39 PM
I didn't mind the lack of civilian NPCs, but I'm biased, because my computer is an ancient Pentium 2 with only a GeForce 2 Video Card.

Maybe, if I had a better computer, I would mind. But its just me.

Civilian NPCS, in my opinion, was best implemented in Deus Ex, and hopefully, Deus Ex 2(I heard they cut down on random side-missions though :mad: ) Where what you did affected the mission and how you complete the game. You had a choice what to say; say the wrong thing, they turn hostile, say the right thing, you butter them up.

I was also hoping that the Droid Recovery mission on Tatooine had less Saber-Swining-Jedi-On-Force-Steroids, and more talking. But then, since when have you ever had a choice what to say in the Jedi Knight series, every conversation is scripted. I specifically put Mind Trick on level 1 for that mission(Don't ask why, I just thought it was "Cool").

If anyone played the Star Wars Episode 1 game with crappy graphics, I liked the approach they took for mind tricking a person. What they did was give a few options for interacting, and the one highlighted in Purple(?) was a Mind Trick option. The Mos Espa mission there was one of my favourites, I was; subconsciously begging the Tatooine missions to be like that.

Coruscant was disappointing, when I saw on the Tier Selection: Coruscant; I was like, WHOA! The biggest city in the Galaxy, I HAVE to see this. I was; terribly disappointed. Sure, you could see the traffic; but was that enough? Corellia, there were no civilians, so who the hell was the one who sent the distress signal? Lots of things don't make sense.

On not killing everyone thing, of course you have to kill everyone, they're bad guys, shooting at you, or trying to smack you silly with a gaffi stick or a tusken rifle, are you going to stand there and say

"Oh wow, a Gaffi Stick, can I see it?"

And consequently be whacked by it. I'd kill the sod immediately.

The decision to the Dark\Light side might not be the best, but it still does make sense, it doesn't matter if you're devoted to being a Jedi, look at Anakin, he didn't play with Dark powers, but still turned to Vader.

When you're angry, you're consumed entirely(I know, I've been extremely angry before), and Jaden felt betrayed by Rosh to turn to the Dark Side(IF you chose the Dark Side)

If you want a game with lots of civilians, play Hitman 1 or 2, I'd recommend playing 1, because it doesn't have ridiculous physics, it uses the improved(so called) Glacier engine for Hitman 2, and the physics are whack for some of the guns. You can shoot a guy with a dual Hardballer (Fancy name for the Colt 1911 45. ACP) and the guy could fly like 30-40 feet away.

Hitman 1 had a great level on Budapest, where you'd have to sneak past metal detectors in a crowded hotel, full of civilians.
[End Rant]

Master_Keralys
11-10-2003, 07:16 PM
On not killing everyone thing, of course you have to kill everyone, they're bad guys

That's kind of our point. Everyone shouldn't be bad guys. If they weren't then you wouldn't have to kill everyone.

Your description of the Deus Ex system sounds about right for a Jedi to me.

I've come to the conclusion that you can explain Corellia by saying that the mercs killed everyone on board. But that still doesn't feel quite right.

Anakin had used dark side powers by the time he was twelve. If you disagree, go read Rogue Planet. He had also read about the Sith back on Tatooine in his childhood. And it took more than one event to turn him completely to the dark.

If Hitman can pull it off, why not JA?

Kryn Dreith
11-18-2003, 03:53 PM
I disagree completely. It's an FPS, the point should be to kill people. NOT just negotiate your way through everything. And stealth? Ha! Doesn't anyone remember the last time they had a stealth level in the JK series? It flat out sucked!!!

If we're going to change it so we can all be happy little Jedi, maybe we should just go jump around in skirts, too (no offense, ladies). We want to kill them, not be happy and nice. Seriously.

JediLiberator
11-18-2003, 10:55 PM
i don't know about adding diplomacy to the next Jedi knight game, but they should definetely bring back civilians and the old morality scale. If you want to be a jedi you should have to act like it. Of course, civilians and innocent bystanders should be in logical locations. If I see some women standing in the middle of a group of dark jedi for no reason that would be silly. Put the same woman in a tatoine market place with a few other civilians and it would make sense.

Kurgan
11-19-2003, 06:02 AM
Well guys, it's official, KOTOR PC is out (should be arriving in stores soon if it hasn't already) and SWG just got support for Jedi AND buildable cities AND ridable vehicles (with the Space Expansion coming soon with starfighter combat).

So the SW RPGers and "big world full of npc's dreamers" have more options now...

Master_Keralys
11-19-2003, 07:37 PM
I sense that Kurgan doesn't like civilians... I sense a powerful new Sith Lord in the making...

Kryn, the examples of other games with lots of civilians obviously defeats your point. Just because many FPS's have no civilians and thus no morality except death doesn't mean that none should have them. Quake has had that flaw from the beginning, but not all series have... Try reading the rest of the thread before you make ridiculous posts like that, 'kay?

Kurgan
11-19-2003, 08:25 PM
Muhahahah! Well I "like civilians" in the sense that I'd love to see more of them in-game for atmospheric purposes.

I just didn't know how well a Q3 engine based FPS could handle them and still be a fun FPS (rather than an RPG). ; )

manoman81
11-20-2003, 12:17 AM
I'm not a mapper/script writer, so I can't say what the game can handle in general. I will say that my computer can handle a few people running around if a fight breaks out. I do miss civilians in the game. Even JO had some people fighting with you on Bespin. If other Jedi can do the same in JA then I think that any computer that can run JA can stand to have a few other NPCs running around as well.

Iblis Reborn
11-20-2003, 12:40 AM
there are no NPC's cause Luke faxes them before you go to tell them to get the hell out of there cause theres jedi buisiness afoot
;)

yeah i would have liked more NPC's too but it was still good

and if you started killing all the innocent ppl you would pretty much have to go darkside before the choice is made

that would kinda mess up the story

Kryn Dreith
11-20-2003, 09:32 PM
Grr... and here I thought Kurgan was an ally... but no!!! I am alone in my view of civilians, it seems.

Except JK, all the DF series have been mostly without civilians. Why add them? They'd just get in the way, and be irritating. Atmosphere? Who cares? I certainly don't. And Kurgan's right... I don't think Q3 could handle it. Some game engines are built to be able to handle it. Regardless of how many NPC's you can theoretically handle, it'll slow down. Just setting "g_corpseremovaltime 0" slows down my computer. And those are dead people who aren't doing anything, so... it would probably be a strain on most PC's.

Chuahtemoc
11-20-2003, 10:13 PM
i spawn civilians just to kill them--like jawas, useless imperial officers are great to beat the heck out of! wookies, c3pos, and r2 units included! lol

RenegadeOfPhunk
11-21-2003, 12:18 AM
Are having civilans in an FPS a main priority? - In the big scheme of things, probably not.

Are having civilians in an FPS more work for the developers to do right? Yes - which is why I can understand the desision to not include any. (As a wise little green dude once said - Either do, or do not...)

Are having civilians in an FPS (specifically JKA) technically feasible? Undoubedly yes - taking into account specific scenes and areas which would benefit from them.

Does having civilans in an FPS suddenly make it an RPG? Hell no.

If you were to include civilians in an FPS, would you HAVE to try and match the kind of NPC-content of games like KOTOR ? SWG? Or course not...

Does having civilians in an FPS help the feeling of immersion? Even if they do little more than just roam around, and then run for cover when the saber ignites? Hell yes.

Is a sense of immersion important to an FPS game? (Especially a SW FPS?) HELL YES!!

If Raven had had more man power and/or time avaliable to put into JKA, and therefore been able to include well-coded NPC's in appropaite places, would JKA have been a better game for it? - I have no problem with confidently stating - YES!
Those who aren't into NPC's would just ignore them and carry on shooting regardless - i.e. it wouldn't ruin their enjoyment.

...but for those of us who enjoy the immersion factor while playing games like these, it would have been a very welcome improvement...

Kurgan
11-21-2003, 02:13 AM
So I guess to sum up:

It's up to the modders now!

T-Dogg
11-21-2003, 11:10 AM
IMO the absence of civilians wasn't the biggest flaw in the Coruscant level - you're spending most of the time on rooftops after all, like it was said. The few "public spaces" like landing platforms and that one street strip could use people though.

The biggest flaw is the boring walls! I'm talking about stuff like videoscreens playing commercials, neon ads, posters... stuff like that. Take any scene from the level and imagine some huge neon ads and vidoscreens pasted on the walls of the surrounding buildings, tell me it wouldn't look better. That would take some major re-texturing of the level though. I don't know hard that would be to do, but sure would make my day. Throw a few civies here and there and bob's your uncle.

Tito
11-21-2003, 03:25 PM
I also very much missed the civilians in the game... There weren't many: A few Jawas, some droids and a bartender!:(

If it's any consolation, the Reborn Ancient Jedi TC (http://raj.jediknight.net) will feature civilians on nearly all levels ('cause I care about civilians, so that's my way of improving the "reality" of the game)!:D

kmd
11-21-2003, 05:23 PM
cicvians rock, turn tot he dark side killing them is even more fun

Master_Keralys
11-21-2003, 06:50 PM
T-Dogg, you're sort of right. But why would you be only on rooftops on Coruscant? We should have been able to run through some of the buildings and wake up people who then proceeded to run away or be consoled by the sight of the lightsaber, as your actions would mandate.

RenegadeOfPhunk - thank you. That's about the perfect way of putting it.

I'd love to see the modding community put it it, Kurgan (which makes me salute you, Tito). I just didn't see it happening back on JK2 very much, and I don't foresee a lot of people doing it for JA. While I look forward to seeing those that do, for most people it'll just be too much work - which is sad, but unsurprising.

Isoparm
11-22-2003, 04:36 AM
"But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point."

sof2 - in between levels you could just walk around in and see and kind of interact with people

morrowind(lower player polycount, high enviorment/fx/shaders)

call of duty if you consider the fact that you always have a sqaud with you and you fight massive ammounts of troops


I think for raven it was more of a time constraint.

Dracofyre
11-22-2003, 05:21 AM
Deus Ex had tons of NPCs everywhere. It may be an older game, and not as visually nice as JKA, but it is still very much worth it.

Kurgan
11-22-2003, 08:33 AM
I concede. ; )

kmd
11-22-2003, 01:40 PM
deus ex 2 is commen out, so get that one

Lince
11-22-2003, 09:07 PM
RenegadeofPhunbk took the words from my mouth, that is how I would put it.
Having NPCs acting how they should and being where they should be adds a lot to the sense of immersion in the game, wich is something all Star Wars games need to have (just look when LucasArts is promoting some new SW game, it will ALWAYS say: "Immersive experience in the Star Wars universe with tons of characters, blah, blah, blah).
And come on, there's no way NPCs would ruin a gamer's experience, even if he does not care for NPCs.
As already stated before, the system could handle it easily.

As for SWG, well, when the game got out and the reviews and info surfaced, I must say I was really disappointed with that game. No way I'm paying that crapload of $ per month to have some disappointing experience. But that's just me, I understand that some people love the game and have fun with it, its just my own opinion.

Rad Blackrose
11-23-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Dracofyre
Deus Ex had tons of NPCs everywhere. It may be an older game, and not as visually nice as JKA, but it is still very much worth it.

Going off topic for a second: The Deus Ex 2 demo is out.

Master_Keralys
11-26-2003, 07:41 PM
I'd like to see some levels with civilian NPC's in them by the modders. I'd also like to see them include them if another JK game ever comes out - and there's feelings both ways on whether one should or not. It might be more work, but it would be better - if you don't work, you don't get the reward.

Unfortunately for me, I can't even get KOTOR or Galaxies - I don't meet the specs for the first, and I don't have broadband, which sucks with Galaxies, so...

Master_Keralys
12-04-2003, 10:21 PM
bumb! Twas a good discussion!