PDA

View Full Version : Why I think JA could/couldn't have been an expansion pak for Jedi Outcast.


Master William
10-15-2003, 05:59 PM
Firstly, I have seen people thinking it is an expansion (my friends, and some people on the net, kind of stupid ;)) and I actually can agree.

Why I think it is more an expansion than a whole game:

- Same looks on Force Power points, on the Menu, on the loading screen (when loading old maps, you could confuse it with JK2 goddamnit!)

- ''Honor'' codes, and ''honor'' code haters, and, idiots. Same in JK2, I think JK2 had a bit more idiots though.

- Same Force moves, nothing new but Sense, which is just Seeing but a 1% remixed. Wow :rolleyes:
Personally I want more Force Powers. I want to be able to throw objects like boxes and stuff on people or walls, like Darth Maul did in Episode I when fighting Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn.

- Same weapons as before, same effect. Nothing changed basically. Only one new weapon. I am not counting the blaster, it is just a reskinner Bryar pistol with slower shooting speed...

Why I think it is a whole game more than an expansion:

- New possibilites in MP - npc spawning rancors, vehicles, spaceships, well, everything.

- Dual sabers and Staff, new, obviously the idea came from all the JK2 mods.
The butterfly animation for Staff is just disappointing, though.
I mean, wasn't it in some JK2 mod like JediPlus? Ripping is mean.

- You can choose your own hilt, nice. Yet again an idea they got from JK2 mods.

- New maps and skins - why they didn't put in the old maps is a question to me, they DID include all of the old models/skins, but they seemed to have jumped across the maps.

Well, not much.

Please, do type the reasons why you see it as an expansion/full game.

I don't know what to say anymore... Maybe to Raven: Try in patches to fix alot of bugs, but gameplay as well! Gameplay comes in bugs.

Annoying bug = No fun gameplay = Patch needed

Get it? Also... Try making new loading screens or SOMETHING, feels like I'm sitting and playing JK2. I want to remove the JK2 look of it, if it REALLY IS a full game, why don't you make us feel like it actually WAS one?

I've said mine... William

shukrallah
10-15-2003, 06:39 PM
- Dual sabers and Staff, new, obviously the idea came from all the JK2 mods.
The butterfly animation for Staff is just disappointing, though.
I mean, wasn't it in some JK2 mod like JediPlus? Ripping is mean.


No, the staff was in jk2, they just didnt use it to its proper potential. And the butterfly, and many other anims are in jk2, but were just simply not used.


- ''Honor'' codes, and ''honor'' code haters, and, idiots. Same in JK2, I think JK2 had a bit more idiots though.

Even if it wasnt based off the jk2 system, those people would still have bought it, and i bet you they will buy the next jk game.

Kengo
10-15-2003, 06:42 PM
I heard it called a "spin-off" and that sounds about right for me, neither a sequel nor an add-on (in their truest sense).

Prime
10-15-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Master William
- ''Honor'' codes, and ''honor'' code haters, and, idiots. Same in JK2, I think JK2 had a bit more idiots though. I don't see what this has to do with whether people see JA as an expansion or not. People are going to do what they want in any game. Nothing Raven can do about this.

Originally posted by Master William
- New possibilites in MP - npc spawning rancors, vehicles, spaceships, well, everything. And Seige and Power Duel modes, customizable characters, new moves, and so on.

Originally posted by Master William
- Dual sabers and Staff, new, obviously the idea came from all the JK2 mods.
The butterfly animation for Staff is just disappointing, though.
I mean, wasn't it in some JK2 mod like JediPlus? Ripping is mean. :rolleyes:
Remember, development of JA began very soon after JO was released, before a lot of these mods came out. These ideas were on the drawing board before a lot of mods existed. Besides the fact that the code is completely different, do you really think mods came up with the idea of the saber staff and duel sabers? Of course not. Hell, Raven put the destroyer into JO. All mods did was make it available without cheats. To a large extent, mods simply took animations already in the code and make them usable. Of all the mods out there, very few actually added anything unique (Promod is one that did).

Originally posted by Master William
- You can choose your own hilt, nice. Yet again an idea they got from JK2 mods. Oh yeah, no one every had the idea of selectable hilts before mods came out...

Originally posted by Master William
Please, do type the reasons why you see it as an expansion/full game. Personally, I see it as a standalone product because it does not require any previous product to play. Others' opinions may vary. Does it really matter? People had more than enough opportunity to find out what JA was like before they bought the game. If they felt it wasn't worth the money, all the power to them.

Originally posted by Master William
Annoying bug = No fun gameplay = Patch needed Annoying bug != No fun gameplay != Patch needed necessarily. Every game has bugs, and some people find them more annoying than others. So does that mean there are no games with fun gameply?

Originally posted by Master William
Get it? Also... Try making new loading screens or SOMETHING, feels like I'm sitting and playing JK2. I want to remove the JK2 look of it, if it REALLY IS a full game, why don't you make us feel like it actually WAS one? Uh, the loading screens are different. Surely you knew the game was going to be a lot like JO before it came out? If not, why not?

Kurgan
10-15-2003, 07:18 PM
Honestly the only reason JA "could" have been an expansion for JK2 is because it uses the "same" engine.

That's the #1 reason. If it had used a new engine but was still exactly how it was people would have called it a sequel and not an expansion.

It's true, we all remember MotS, we remember how it was an expansion, and it was marketed as one back when "Expansions" for FPS games usually entailed 2 new enemies/weapons and a set of new SP missions. MotS went above and beyond the call of duty.

MotS also was big on rancors and featured a "female character" prominently (the game was early on marketed with the Twi-Lek female, until they got the Ben Affleck character going).

Of course many forget that MotS came out 4 months after JK1. Whereas JA followed up JK2 over a year later.

As far as Raven's games go, this is definately a sequel. Remember their "expansion" for Elite Force? It was a multi-level "Walkthrough" of Voyager (quite cool actually, but more of a fanboy thing than an actual set of new missions) plus a handfull of MP maps. Otherwise it was little more than a glorified patch.

JA updates the engine while adding a ton of new content. Sure, there are some places where it feels like they didn't finish and I wish they'd have had more time to polish it, but it still is a sequel.


Of course the terms are somewhat fuzzy these days.

Rune had an expansion released called Halls of Valhalla (which was a set of Multiplayer only maps that were sold as a stand alone product that didn't require the original game to play it).

As Mike Gummelt (I believe it was) pointed out, most PC sequels these days, including many successful ones, use the "same" engine as their predecessors. The reason for this is because developing new engines or getting used to new engines to make viable new games on can take years (not to mention its more expensive to do it that way).

Etc.

I guess if its sold as one, it is, if not, then it isn't?

Master William
10-15-2003, 07:22 PM
I didn't think it would be the same engine. Why? Because when they announced the game, all I read was ''New smashing game engine will be used, not the previous Quake III engine'' or similar.

And, ok. I see the animation belonged to the game from the beginning. I guess I forgot to add alot of things, but I have been corrected by the guy who posted before Kurgan (sorry :p)

I meant that how people SEE it, not how they think it really is... Sorry about that, hehe... I see it as a whole game, but it doesn't really feel like a whole game. It will in time though.

Kurgan
10-16-2003, 02:10 AM
I don't think I ever read that it was going to be a new engine.

Everything I ever heard as the game was being made was "heavily modified Quake III Team Arena engine."

Which, as most of us knew, was the same way that JK2's engine was described before it came out. All the previews I read also said it used the same engine "though modified."

StormHammer
10-16-2003, 05:11 AM
I see it as a full game, and a sequel. There is simply far too much content for it to be considered anything else.

And as for 'appearance'...I don't see any problem with having the same interface for a game, if it's good enough. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

A case in point - I really liked the UWindows interface that was developed for Unreal Tournament. It was very detailed, and very easy to use. Then they changed it all for Unreal Tournament 2003, and not only was some of the functionality lost, but it actually takes slightly longer to set up options, etc. Basically, they Quake-ified it, and that was a bad move, in my view.

So that comes down to player preference, and nothing more.

As for the engine...I too never read or saw anything at any stage of the development that might indicate it was a different engine. I knew right from the start that it would be a 'modified' JK2 engine, which in turn was a modified Q3A engine.

The only possible part of the game that might have an 'expansion feel' to it are some of the tiered missions. Some of them are mind-numbingly simple, small and very short (like the Blenjeel merchant ship level). The individual missions have been my main critique of the game, and I've already said many times before they could have used a great deal more depth, had a few levels per mission, and made it all a bit more compelling. In some respects, I would have to argue that some of the MotS levels were a damned site longer and more enjoyable than some of the single-level missions in JA.

But that doesn't change the fact that I've always viewed JA as a full game.

Chewy289
10-16-2003, 09:53 AM
I heard it was the Q3 engine looong ago, I think you're mistaken.

Let's just hope JK4 uses the Doom 3/HL2 engine. :D

WadeV1589
10-16-2003, 10:08 AM
As for the engine...I too never read or saw anything at any stage of the development that might indicate it was a different engine. I knew right from the start that it would be a 'modified' JK2 engine, which in turn was a modified Q3A engine.JK2 was a modified EF engine (Elite Force), if you look at the source code they still have EF stuff in there, most noticeable borg stuff :rolleyes: And then EF came from Q3TA, unless the first JK was Quake3, I've got the CD (came with JK2) but I've never played it...

The Count
10-16-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
JK2 was a modified EF engine (Elite Force), if you look at the source code they still have EF stuff in there, most noticeable borg stuff :rolleyes: And then EF came from Q3TA, unless the first JK was Quake3, I've got the CD (came with JK2) but I've never played it...

JK3 not JK4, I don't remember JK3 coming out! :rolleyes:

StormHammer
10-16-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
JK2 was a modified EF engine (Elite Force), if you look at the source code they still have EF stuff in there, most noticeable borg stuff :rolleyes: And then EF came from Q3TA, unless the first JK was Quake3, I've got the CD (came with JK2) but I've never played it...

Yeah, my bad. I realised after I posted about the EF stuff, so yeah. It's a mod of a mod of a mod, so to speak.

As for JK, that used it's own in-house engine developed by Lucasarts. Can't remember the name of it off-hand - but Kurgan is sure to be around to tell us. ;) :p

Sabre9
10-16-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Yeah, my bad. I realised after I posted about the EF stuff, so yeah. It's a mod of a mod of a mod, so to speak.

As for JK, that used it's own in-house engine developed by Lucasarts. Can't remember the name of it off-hand - but Kurgan is sure to be around to tell us. ;) :p

It was, I believe, the 'Sith' engine...