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Lord Sokar
10-22-2003, 05:08 PM
The purpose of this open letter is to voice my disgust with the practices and lack of support shown primarily by Raven Software as well as Lucasarts. Today, I regretfully have cancelled my hosting service, taken my server down and will never again support a community for a game that has been released by your company. This is why.

In 2002, I bought Jedi Outcast the day it came out. After completing the single-player game twice, I jumped online and fell in love with the first online game I’ve ever really ‘got into’ outside of Counter-Strike. It was a truly unique experience being able to do battle using a lightsaber. I practiced often (too often) and became quite good at the game.

My first negative experience with Raven’s ineptness game came when you had the audacity to RADICALLY alter the game play with the first JO patch (1.03). As a saber-only player, I was shocked that EVERYTHING was changed with that patch rendering everything I had spent a full month on practically useless. I remember discussions from Raven representatives (back when they would even comment publicly) at the time about how the yellow stance ‘never was meant to be this way’, so it was changed to the way it was ‘suppose to be all alone’. Some moves which were good for a humiliating 20 damage point kill were now worth 100 points (the blue-stance backstab) giving birth to a whole new set of even more nonsensical ‘exploits’ in the game.

It is not my intention to dwell on game play shortcomings of your game, it simply serves as an example of Raven not understanding what makes a good online game. You do NOT radically alter the play of a game that has already been out a month.

As a server owner/administrator, the problems were much, much deeper than the average ‘player’ understood. For example, 1.02 as well as 1.03 servers (both Linux and NT) were extremely unstable and crashed at the sight of a stiff breeze. But the problems were even deeper. Performing an RCON STATUS command would list approximately 3 lines before it would just stop dead it’s tracks making administering the server practically impossible. I hear that this finally got fixed with 1.04, but my frustration level had reached a point where I quit the game entirely, so I’m not sure.

When I first heard that Jedi Academy was to be released, I was ecstatic that a second chance for a great online game had come up, but I had my reservations because you guys (Raven) were still at the helm. I had no idea just how concerned I should have been before plunking down over $100 to make everything happen.

After being kicked and banned from several servers filled with RP’ers, I decided to take the plunge and support the community once again by renting a server and tweaking it to perfection over a few days. Now, I regret that decision.

For the past month that I have owned my server, it has NOT been listed in your master list for a grand total of 4 or 5 days. Here is a simple equation you should learn:

Server not listed in masterlist = NO PLAYERS

To further add insult to injury, the ONLY official comment from Raven regarding this nonsense has been for people to ‘use GameSpy or ASE’. That is absolutely unacceptable. That’s like Microsoft telling people who have bought a non-functioning copy of Word to use Wordpad instead. It’s laughable. The final straw broke when my server re-appeared in the list on Sunday, October 19th and then promptly disappeared again after the master list went down the VERY NEXT DAY.

The following is a letter from my service provide who shall remain anonymous:

Yes, it's a common thing right now.

As near as I can tell, Raven has instituted some new functionality which prevents people who are playing stolen/leaked versions of the game from being able to see the Master List or run servers online. As a result, it affects all the honest people, server to a point.

Here's hoping that Raven can get their act together and get servers to appear more promptly!

So, is this true? I think we deserve an answer. If your efforts to curtail illegal copies have caused the master list to filter out legitimate copies of the game (keep in mind my server was professionally hosted by a legitimate company using legitimate copies) you should ALL be ashamed.

Look around the Internet sometime. Go to what I consider true gaming companies and read about how they handle online servers. Check out Valve. I never thought that anything could top the botched first release of Steam, but you have managed to make the release of Steam appear to be a well planned rollout. Look at Microsoft’s rollout of the first patch for Halo. The server was released the day before the new client patch. Look at how Unreal Tournament 2003 has been a relatively smooth experience and ask yourself why you can’t accomplish the same task.

You have proven yourselves to be woefully inept at supporting an online gaming community. If you think that your latest game merits being purchased on the strength of its single-player game alone, you are incredibly misguided. The plot was pathetic and the movement was seriously hosed. No longer did my character in the game run where he/she was going, they ‘floated’ there instead. I didn’t know that moving 15 feet per step was a Jedi ability.

I will go out of my way to encourage people to not purchase this game given your horrible track record at supporting online games. This has taken any desire I had to get good at this game, support the community and even try to get involved in ladder competitions. It’s just not worth it any more due to the non-stop bungles you guys seem to be capable of.

In closing, I sincerely hope that any future Jedi Knight titles are awarded to a company more capable than Raven Software. You have proven time and again that you are not up to the challenge of supporting an online gaming community. Unlike most game producers, you have yet to understand that long term viability of this product is dependant on supporting the people who pay money to operate servers to attract players, and you do not deserve our support.

Sincerely.

WadeV1589
10-22-2003, 05:20 PM
Well that was new...

In their defense, I believe, or I have read in places, it is LucasArts who are to blame for Jedi Academy's problems in more than the master server area. I remember reading comments like they restricted Raven in many areas and rushed them in others. Whether that is true or not is not for me to say, it's only what I've heard.

Also I've played Elite Force, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, at no point have I seen their support of the community to ever be poor. They may make mistakes as you so rightly pointed out, but they do try. Head over to www.map-center.com and look at Raven (the guy) who works for Raven (the company) helping modders out more than he is required to.

Raven Software are a very mod loving community, they do seem smaller than other companies though...but that may just be me. And they are working from the land of cheeeeeeeese :p

I think maybe your "letter" needs to be toned down somewhat. It may make valid points but in the end it comes down to you saying you hate Raven's attitude towards the community and will try and stop people buying their stuff which won't go down well with anyone.

I await to either be agreed with or flamed.

Kurgan
10-22-2003, 05:26 PM
My question is... have you sent this letter to anyone at Raven, or are you just posting it here as a "cathersis"?

Because there's no shortage of "complaint threads" already on here because of the lack of an official patch.

Just curious...

Lord Sokar
10-22-2003, 05:31 PM
Wade,

No need for flames, even if we disagree! Yes, my letter is angry, because I have been ripped off and poor service from ANY company brings out the worst in me every time.

The most baffling part of all this is, like you said, we've 'read comments' or 'heard rumors' about this that and the other. Raven NOR Lucasarts respects us enough to even acknowledge what the hell is going on or when or how it can be rectified. And that is the most unacceptable part of all this.

I can only speak to my experience with Raven with the JK series, and it has been a dismal experience to say the least. I'm happy someone from Raven has been helping people with models somewhere else, but without working servers, it's all a moot point.

Kurgan,

I meant to say in the first post that this has been posted to Raven's forums as well as being emailed directly to Lucasarts and Raven.

I'm also not going to 'wait around' for a patch considering the mess Raven made of JO with 1.03. My expectations is... it's only going to go downhill from here.

pat3001
10-22-2003, 05:32 PM
not to be insulting or anything, but it is kinda weird that at the end of your letter (which i did not entirely read) you drop an advertisement for your server. i thought you said you hated them and your server was done...or maybe i am just playing devil's advocate....

Lord Sokar
10-22-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by SpecialForces
um they made the patches to fix stuff, like back stab so my guess is that you were a backstab whore....EWWWW
Get over it, this is stupid.

How typical.

Perhaps a refresher course in reading comprehension is in order here. If you will read my post again, you will see that I gave up when 1.03 was released. I didn't play it enough to bother with the backstab mess.

pat,

I haven't bothered with editing my profile yet to remove it because I am most likely done now. Don't read too much into it.

Prime
10-22-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
They may make mistakes as you so rightly pointed out, but they do try. Head over to www.map-center.com and look at Raven (the guy) who works for Raven (the company) helping modders out more than he is required to.

Raven Software are a very mod loving community... This is true. They are very helpful to the modding community, and often answer questions and give suggestions on how to do different things. Devs have also posted here about how players can alter gameplay to there various tastes.

They have not spoken about patches and things of that sort because the are legally obligated not to. They are also very limited with what they can do without the permission of Lucasarts.

Pedro The Hutt
10-22-2003, 06:06 PM
About the server problem, why are you bashing Raven into the ground already , while it's common knowledge that at this point they are working on a patch that should adress several problems.

But erm.. man, that's the most bitter post I've read on this forum ever. Lighten up my friend ^.^ The Force is with us in digital format!

Rad Blackrose
10-22-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt
About the server problem, why are you bashing Raven into the ground already , while it's common knowledge that at this point they are working on a patch that should adress several problems.

But erm.. man, that's the most bitter post I've read on this forum ever. Lighten up my friend ^.^ The Force is with us in digital format!

Actually, they're still waiting on a go ahead from LucasArts in order to release the server fix, but LucasArts is holding back.

Then why the hell did you not like the update!
Your just bitching.......

Why the hell are you even talking? Please proceed to remove your foot from your mouth and come back when you have even a decent chance of commenting rather then blindly (and pathetically, might I add) chew someone out.

um they made the patches to fix stuff, like back stab so my guess is that you were a backstab whore....EWWWW
Get over it, this is stupid.

Another statement from he who be sucking on toejam. RTFP, then proceed to the first grade to begin the brutal process of learning reading comprehension.

This is true. They are very helpful to the modding community, and often answer questions and give suggestions on how to do different things. Devs have also posted here about how players can alter gameplay to there various tastes.

Raven has only been helpful in terms of modeling, skinning, and mapping. However, they're limited in even those fields by everyone's "best friend," LucasArts.

There could be mods that surpass the origonal game by far, but LucasArts is scared ****less to allow Raven to release source code. Even as JKII was dying, LucasArts sat on their hands, and it was a deathblow.

Now, for the general statement.

Sokar, I feel for you. Hell, I feel for all of the server admins that are nailed by this bug (samurai wannabes or not), and the people who are stuck with the

parsepacketentities

problem who have bought a LEGIT copy of the game (it has happened to a few friends of mine, I have seen it with my own eyes). It sickens me that these problems came shipped out of the door, due to either Raven's ****ty quality control or LucasArts just wanting another product for the Benjamins (I believe the latter would be more feasible).

It's not just the server administrators that are banged up right now, but it is the most noticable. Good letter, my friend.

Rad Blackrose
10-22-2003, 06:25 PM
There happens to be a species that defines your characteristics, SpecialForces.

It's not homo sapien either.

It's trollus VNBoardis.

I'll leave the rest for you to figure out, since you have no clue.

razorace
10-22-2003, 07:24 PM
This is true. They are very helpful to the modding community, and often answer questions and give suggestions on how to do different things. Devs have also posted here about how players can alter gameplay to there various tastes.

Well, that's true. Some of the Raven staff is very helpful by answering questions. However, that needs to be supplimented by a patch for the major issues and a SDK release to be honest about their statement of better mod support.

Beyond that, everything is opinion. It would be great if we had some official documentation on stuff, but we can figure it out...eventually.

millinghordesma
10-22-2003, 07:50 PM
you shouldn't have to 'figure out' how to make a game you've bought actually work. that's what the alphas are for. it would seem raven (or someone up there in the heirarchy) didn't catch that part, though...

FK | unnamed
10-22-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Prime


They have not spoken about patches and things of that sort because the are legally obligated not to. They are also very limited with what they can do without the permission of Lucasarts.

He’s right.


Lucas Arts is one of, if not THE single most out of touch major software company around these days.

They have become little more than license holders over the last few years.

Virtually all of their games are done by third parties, and those few that were done in-house have been... less than stellar to say the least.


Having all of their games done by third party developers is great... but they (LA) are so fanatically anal about the licensing issues of the star wars property, that it takes 4 months and a board room of 400 lawyers just to decide on the shade of red that will be used for light sabers in the game.


Raven did make some mistakes here and there with game play changes, but they are human, we all screw up.

id software has some of, if not the best involvement with their players/customers in the gaming industry, but they too have put out some crappy patches and made mistakes.

The difference was, players knew id would always fix what they messed up, so players just rode it out for a month or so then here came a better patch.


The problem is, even if they (Raven) do realize they dropped the ball, they are not legally allowed to go back and fix it until LA legal says they can.

I have no doubt that if this series was 100% Raven/Activision and LA legal gave them total freedom (in regards to patches and community support) we would have ten times the quality of product.

Look at SoF 2, no lack of developer support there.

Why?

No licensed property holders standing in the way of getting things done.

Master William
10-22-2003, 08:03 PM
Hehe, I see I was mentioned ;)

Well, I got JK2 exactly after 1.04 was released, so I have no clue what you are talking about. It felt great for me. (Greater than JA.)

They should let all this JA developing to people who are more experienced. This is just silly.

This game has probably been the number one source of irritation in the world.

Why?

''omg lam0r im gonna hax ur comp lolol and btw ur banned''

Server Disconnected: Kicked
/reconnect
Connecting
reconnect:213.67.245.145:27900

Awaiting gamestate...

Banned. :rolleyes:

Do you see the point? All this useless whining, banning, all.
All these annoying idiots who make no sense in their behaviour (not at the forums, the game - JA).

I mean, some days ago I got vote kicked for absolutely nothing, by some person who couldn't tolerate me fighting back when she/he attacked me.

As you all know, people just like to see other people getting kicked/banned, without caring in any way. They think it is funny.

I have found a great game called UT2003 (will be getting UT2004 with vehicles ;)), with many great mods.

I will still stick with JA of course, but what we need is a better community, the amount if idiots online is just irritating...

Lord Sokar
10-22-2003, 08:37 PM
William?

Did you accidently post in the wrong thread or something? This thread is about servers not being listed. Not how great you are and how much you get baned.

Kurgan
10-22-2003, 09:01 PM
Lucas Arts is one of, if not THE single most out of touch major software company around these days.

They have become little more than license holders over the last few years.

....

I have no doubt that if this series was 100% Raven/Activision and LA legal gave them total freedom (in regards to patches and community support) we would have ten times the quality of product.

Look at SoF 2, no lack of developer support there.

Why?

No licensed property holders standing in the way of getting things done.

I'm going to have to agree with you there and say I think you hit the nail on the head.

The problem isn't Raven, it's LA, and yes, LA needs to listen more to fans. That's the curse of having a company like them sitting on a liscense that makes changing the game so difficult, even with needed bug fixes.

Now, some individuals in this thread JUST COULDN'T HELP flaming each other, and you people (you know who you are) need to stop acting like trolls and feeding troll behavior in your fellow board members.

Now, I'm not going to close this discussion because I know it's full of legitimate beefs people are having. Why pay to run a server when 95% of the people who own the game can't even see it?

That's a major problem and it needs to be remedied as soon as possible.

Having an exploit like the Rocket Bug or a bugged skin is one thing, but not allowing most people to play multiplayer (unless they use unsupported third party programs that they may or may not know where to get or how to use) is unaccceptable.

So yes, now that I know you have sent this to both Raven and LA, I'm glad you did, they need to get those complaints so they know what's up. And while your letter was angry, it was civilized enough and understandable enough that they should see where you are coming from.

The question is, will they listen?

Master William
10-22-2003, 09:05 PM
I'm simply proving how JA is being ruined and destroyed by stupid people. But heck go ahead and delete the post, was just trying to say what I think

Emon
10-22-2003, 09:20 PM
I don't think Raven or LEC is going to listen to what is essentially, "Get sum reel skilz b4 making a game noobs, you should be ashamed"

Rad Blackrose
10-22-2003, 10:42 PM
The question is, will they listen?

Raven will probably toss it into the "We're pissed off list" that's probably a mile high and happens to be right next to the disc containing the next patch, meanwhile Smith in Accounting at LEC is rolling on the floor almost dead with laughter.

Five bucks on it, guaranteed.

EDIT: William, it was a compliment, not a mention. Trust me.

WadeV1589
10-22-2003, 11:22 PM
The thing I don't get about LEC is how they read posts like this, see their customers are pissed and then dismiss them...lets face it, some LEC employees are going to be reading threads like this and seeing the masses of threads all about them being tight with their licenses...but they just ignore it. At what point did LEC start to almost totally ignore their customers? I just cannot get my head around a company that can dismiss masses of complaints about legitimate bugs until "that point"

By "that point" I mean when they say "OK, release a patch" but then that's it...takes them months to get it into their head again before anything else can be released. It's a shame really.

eniaC
10-22-2003, 11:22 PM
but the fact is I really don't think the "involved parties" really give a hoot about MP, due to the fact that most of their paychecks are payed by children asking mommy and daddy for a Star Wars game for the holidays, guess whats right around the corner, and you guys think it's going to get better. Hah. Like it was stated before it either takes them to long due to commitees and lawyers, and seems like the said parties have bit off more than they can chew. How many games have they released in last few months with KOTOR(PC) and the cloney FPS around the corner.
No comment on Galaxies:rolleyes: shouldn't have to.

Sorry for the rambling, mighty fine letter Lord Sokar, I agree with you 100 percent.
Customer Sastisfaction is very important I belive,if you wish to keep a product selling and keep the customers you have and keep them happy.
Most companies with superior costomer service/sastisfaction arethe one that thrive for years(except most don't have the Star wars name to sell it.


eniaC

P.S. Sokar, I tried to find your server the first couple weeks after you had told me about it, very rarely popped up and when it did is was primarily empty, you have made a very valid point and I hope they listen, Good Luck.

FK | unnamed
10-23-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
The thing I don't get about LEC is how they read posts like this, see their customers are pissed and then dismiss them...lets face it, some LEC employees are going to be reading threads like this and seeing the masses of threads all about them being tight with their licenses...but they just ignore it. At what point did LEC start to almost totally ignore their customers? I just cannot get my head around a company that can dismiss masses of complaints about legitimate bugs until "that point"


The "why" is real simple:

It's the same reason George Lucas could put N*sync in AotC, and the same reason if he put Carrot Top in Episode 3 it would not affect his box office take:


He has a captive audience.


I'm not trying to insult anyone but when it comes to sci-fi stuff like Star Wars and Star Trek, people are so rabidly addicted to it that no matter what is put out, it's going to sell and sell big.


How many of you bought this game and many other star wars games in the last few years *just because they were star wars games?

I know I probably never would have given this game a second look if I were not a fan.

The only reason I even picked it up was because of the SW stuff, now granted after I played it the fun game play is what kept me around but the initial purchase was all because of the name attached to it.



I can guarantee you right now this conversation has taken place at Lucas Arts at least twice over the last year:

LEC guy #1 "People are pissed about the game we just put out"

LEC guy #2 "So what, you really think that if we put out Jedi Knight 3/4 next year they wouldn't buy it!"

/insert laughter

IG-64
10-23-2003, 01:37 AM
note to mr. "anonymous": don't flame SP, its fine, i like it, get over it. just because they "jump around" every 200 years doesn't mean it sucks, please.

and to both of you, if you don't like the game, don't scream to the world about it. stop playing and leave it to yourselves.

and, raven, i would like to complement you on the replay value of SP, not including what the cheats do to add some fun ;) great job :thumbsup:

Rad Blackrose
10-23-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by ig64
note to mr. "anonymous": don't flame SP, its fine, i like it, get over it. just because they "jump around" every 200 years doesn't mean it sucks, please.

and to both of you, if you don't like the game, don't scream to the world about it. stop playing and leave it to yourselves.

and, raven, i would like to complement you on the replay value of SP, not including what the cheats do to add some fun ;) great job :thumbsup:

Funny, no one is targetting SP. This is all MP problems. Not a single problem has been addressed in either MP or SP, granted, but MP is hurting a lot worse then SP right now.

Wrong post to reply to, perhaps?

Lord Sokar
10-23-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC}
P.S. Sokar, I tried to find your server the first couple weeks after you had told me about it, very rarely popped up and when it did is was primarily empty, you have made a very valid point and I hope they listen, Good Luck.

Hey Caine, thanks for the support dude.

My provider has convinced me to hang on a few more days while they increase the frequency of heartbeats to the masterlist servers as a last ditch effort. I'm going to see what happens.

And has anyone seen Amidala lately?

Oh. And an FYI. This thread's brother over at ravensoft.com:

Raven Software Forum - Open letter thread (http://forums.ravensoft.com/ib/ikonboard.pl?;act=ST;f=21;t=25768)

IG-64
10-23-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Funny, no one is targetting SP. This is all MP problems. Not a single problem has been addressed in either MP or SP, granted, but MP is hurting a lot worse then SP right now.

Wrong post to reply to, perhaps?

i was tlking about mr. "anonymous" (the 2nd letter)

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-23-2003, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Lord Sokar

My provider has convinced me to hang on a few more days while they increase the frequency of heartbeats to the masterlist servers as a last ditch effort. I'm going to see what happens.

And has anyone seen Amidala lately?


http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1353421#post1353421
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1353409#post1353409
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1353259#post1353259
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1353253#post1353253
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1353216#post1353216
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1353212#post1353212
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1353184#post1353184
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1352993#post1352993
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1352984#post1352984
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1352950#post1352950
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1352795#post1352795
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1352465#post1352465
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1352429#post1352429

And those are just the posts I made today, LOL. No wonder I still haven't played JA single player yet, too busy trolling the forums.

I wish increasing the heartbeat frequency made a difference, but I don't think it will. I've tried sending heartbeats manually every second to see if it would make my servers appear in the ingame browser (I can tell when it is showing because the server quickly fills up and stays full), but that didn't seem to have any effect. I felt like I was a castaway on an island, yelling at a distant ship or high-flying plane, trying to get noticed but remaining invisible.

I am so glad you decided to hang in there a little longer. I have your server in my Favorites 3 folder in the All Seeing Eye, and I've watched the activity there daily. Yes, it is damn depressing when it is empty, but I could always tell when it was showing in the ingame browser because it filled up and stayed full. I felt very happy for you, knowing how frustrated you've been by this sad situation.

There will be a patch (someday) and then your server will be busy all the time, just like it is when it is listed. When that happens, I think you will find that the fun you will have being "the admin" is worth $37 a month. And I know you will be a good admin, because I can tell you care about the quality of the experience that you provide to your players.

eniaC
10-23-2003, 03:16 AM
Don't think I really made it clear in my previous post to keep at it and eventually they will have to listen, keep trying, like Amidala said it's worth it in the long run.

eniaC

Akshara
10-23-2003, 04:51 AM
I feel for you Sokar, and everyone else having server listing problems. But Raven is one of the best game developers out there, and they are definitely in touch with what MP gaming is all about - they kinda set the standard that other Q3 based games are measured against. Hang in there... they will release a patch.

The silence thing happened over in the EF2 community as well, which was developed by Ritual this time, not Raven. Paramount put the lid on it, and Ritual couldn't discuss it... took almost three months for them to be able to even discuss the patch, let alone release it. And man the community really laid into Ritual in a mean way... every single post was read by the devs, and it really seemed to hurt that they legally couldn't reply to them at all.

No software dev team wants to see their game not work right. I'm sure that the Raven devs aren't too happy about the server situation either... no servers means nobody playing the game they spent the last couple years of their lives working on.

Btw... Ritual really messed up the EF2 MP game - they even made CTF based on number of frags, not flag captures. It's still a good game in it's own right, but definitely not a sequel to EF in both playability and style. So don't be too quick to wish for another dev for the series, because it could very easily be a whole lot worse. Raven knows what they're doing, and we shouldn't take them for granted.

I'll try to stop by your server sometime. It shows up in both Qtracker and All Seeing Eye, which are actually more like having a bad version of Notepad and Microsoft recommending using Word instead.

;-)

------

Raven, thanks for a great game! ChangKhan rules...

UltimateQuake lives!!!

bodstevens
10-23-2003, 05:00 AM
BUMP
me too
unhappy with mp

LA is to restictive and not listening to fans
raven is cool SOF was their own baby and it was fine
But LA is holding a tight leash
that LA president left so fast he must have been forced to play some of his own games and got bummed out
LOL

but its sad to have a unique game like this ruined by poor support from LA (not raven)
what game can you play online with force and sabers?
(dont say diakatana lol)

peace

eniaC
10-23-2003, 05:34 AM
"No software dev team wants to see their game not work right. I'm sure that the Raven devs aren't too happy about the server situation either... no servers means nobody playing the game they spent the last couple years of their lives working on."-Akshara

A very good point indeed, and they should be proud of there work, I'm very pleased with the game aside from no servers to play on and other reason I won't bring up, after all it's being argued on every topic in this forum and we don't need to bring it up here, lol.

Dev's, the game is beautiful, SP and MP. We all know it's not there fault anyhow. They probrally have to ask LA's permission just to take a leak.

eniaC

razorace
10-23-2003, 05:42 AM
Agreed, the game is great. It's just mared by some serious bugs and a lack of polish (probably from the lack of time).

Master William
10-23-2003, 08:38 AM
I did take it as a compliment, Rad, and I am pretty sure it is one. After seeing your edited message I will believe it is a compliment even more ;)

What I want in Jedi Academy is a buddy list. Anyone agree? The ''Find Player'' option is not good, I spoke to a friend in the phone, he said his name exactly, and I typed it in the Search field. ''No players found''

It has never worked for me, and a buddy list would be fun, chatting to people you know, and perhaps a public chatroom of sorts... So far I am too lazy to come up with cons.

EDIT: I'm not saying a buddy list and a public chatroom would solve it all, but it could be fun. I suppose by this way, you'd have to make an account... Sounds fun too ;)

HaruGlory89
10-23-2003, 10:26 AM
My, all this talk about LEC being screwed up, yeah, LEC is knda like that these days, eh? Reminds me of another company going by the name of ATARI

Prime
10-23-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Master William
What I want in Jedi Academy is a buddy list. Anyone agree? The ''Find Player'' option is not good, I spoke to a friend in the phone, he said his name exactly, and I typed it in the Search field. ''No players found'' Maybe that happened because of the server list bug?

ManaMana
10-23-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Maybe that happened because of the server list bug?

Probarbly...

Neverhoodian
10-24-2003, 03:01 AM
Okay, I'm going to go way out on a limb here, I'm usually not this scathing, but I'm getting tired of the nitpicking about the game. Bear with me, I just want to get something off my chest...

First, move your optical sensors (otherwise known as "eyes") AWAY from the computer screen.

"WHOA! WHAT'S THAT?!" you ask.

That, my friend, is what people call "Real Life," it's the hottest game out there...

It is the absolute final word in graphics and gameplay immersion. Move your typing instruments (also known as "hands") and reach out and touch/move something. Pretty neat, huh? It's the ultimate in interactive gameplay.

What's even better, it has the best Multiplayer gameplay around. There's ALWAYS something new happening and...well don't take my word for it! See for yourself! Go places! Meet people! Talk to them! Have some fun out there! "Real Life" is a game that EVERYONE can enjoy!

Okay, there's my rant. I apologize in advance if I offended anyone, (this is mainly directed towards the first post) but even George Lucas said once to "get a life."

eniaC
10-24-2003, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Neverhoodian
Okay, I'm going to go way out on a limb here, I'm usually not this scathing, but I'm getting tired of the nitpicking about the game. Bear with me, I just want to get something off my chest...

First, move your optical sensors (otherwise known as "eyes") AWAY from the computer screen.

"WHOA! WHAT'S THAT?!" you ask.

That, my friend, is what people call "Real Life," it's the hottest game out there...

It is the absolute final word in graphics and gameplay immersion. Move your typing instruments (also known as "hands") and reach out and touch/move something. Pretty neat, huh? It's the ultimate in interactive gameplay.

What's even better, it has the best Multiplayer gameplay around. There's ALWAYS something new happening and...well don't take my word for it! See for yourself! Go places! Meet people! Talk to them! Have some fun out there! "Real Life" is a game that EVERYONE can enjoy!

Okay, there's my rant. I apologize in advance if I offended anyone, (this is mainly directed towards the first post) but even George Lucas said once to "get a life."


What the H*LL...does this have to do with Sokar's letter about spending "real time and money" on "real servers" for "real people" on "real computers", should have takne your own advice before ya opened your trap. Go post in the threads about lamers and the honor code and quit posting nonsense in an honest person's attempt to deal with problems in the "REAL WORLD".
My reality is far differant from yours I'm sure, so who the h*ll are you to tell me what I can and can't dislike or nitpick about something I spent my "REAL MONEY" on.
Did you even read Master Sokar's letter?

;)


:sithm:
eniaC

shock1Darth Rosh's {R^S} Server |24.26.141.235|shock1

STTCT
10-24-2003, 05:05 AM
Never, what does that have to do with the video game and if real life was so important to you - what the heck are you doing reading this thread.

I agree - the game needs some attention and at least something from Raven that says "Hey, we are working on it!"

Oh well, soon enough time will tell.

Lord Sokar
10-24-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Neverhoodian
Okay, I'm going to go way out on a limb here, I'm usually not this scathing, but I'm getting tired of the nitpicking about the game. Bear with me, I just want to get something off my chest...


Thank you for contributing this bizzare, out-of-place, nonsensical post.

Had you not enlightened me to the fact that things other than video games exist in this world, I might have never left this computer. Bless you, kind soul.

Have you noticed your post count is higher than most of the people in this thread including mine? Who needs to get out?

Okay, I'm going to go way out on a limb here, I'm usually not this scathing, but I'm wondering if your post was an attempt at humor. If so, you are not a funny person and should be laughed at and not with.

megafu
10-24-2003, 06:10 AM
i heard Raven was doing Quake IV.... set for a mid 2004 release. I hope they spend more time on that than JA, it's already dead.

ManaMana
10-24-2003, 11:33 AM
Erh... Not really...

Neverhoodian
10-24-2003, 01:54 PM
Well, looks like my earlier post ruffled some feathers. Maybe I can explain what I meant for those who may have misunderstood.

What the post's bottom line is that you can't sweat the small stuff. I have no problem discussing issues in this forum (I've complained before) but it seems to me as if some members are blowing the issue out of proportion. It's only a computer game, after all. There's no such thing as a perfect computer game and there never will be. Gaming companies releasing patches is a privelage, not a right, so don't expect them to. If you don't like the game, no one's stopping you from doing something else. (hence the "Real Life" message in my previous post) Computers are a form to escape reality, not create another one.

Again, I have no problem with discussing game problems as it provides feedback, but isolating a few minor issues and running with it and saying the entire game is bad seems to me to be a bit too nit-picky.

I hope that clears things up. I may have been heavy on the sarcasm, but what I've just written above was the intended message. I did write a disclaimer and apologized in advance, but maybe I didn't elaborate enough. Consequently, I will also apologize now for the upheaval. Evidently, there's been some misunderstandings and hurt feelings here. I will not go back on my word, but I will try to make my intention known without trying to be malicious or cruel.

Prime
10-24-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Neverhoodian
First, move your optical sensors (otherwise known as "eyes") AWAY from the computer screen.

"WHOA! WHAT'S THAT?!" you ask.

That, my friend, is what people call "Real Life," it's the hottest game out there...

It is the absolute final word in graphics and gameplay immersion. Move your typing instruments (also known as "hands") and reach out and touch/move something. Pretty neat, huh? It's the ultimate in interactive gameplay.

What's even better, it has the best Multiplayer gameplay around. There's ALWAYS something new happening and...well don't take my word for it! See for yourself! Go places! Meet people! Talk to them! Have some fun out there! "Real Life" is a game that EVERYONE can enjoy! Nah.

Originally posted by STTCT
I agree - the game needs some attention and at least something from Raven that says "Hey, we are working on it!"They likely haven't said this due to legal reasons...

SlapNut
10-24-2003, 02:30 PM
oi raves' mate, dont change a thing, top job

GEEZus
10-24-2003, 03:16 PM
This is most likely the sad simple truth.
Raven would like to put out a patch, but they would also like to get paid and not break the law while releasing a patch.
Lucas Arts would like to release a patch... when game sales go down and the game needs some publicity to boost them.
I think everyone remembers the length of time it took from going 1.03 to 1.04... Raven even responded to plenty of e-mails saying they couldn't release another patch. Eventually a new patch was released and the news about it was whored out on every gaming site to give the game more publicity thus helping it's sales.
You've gotta look at it from a business point of view =\

eniaC
10-24-2003, 04:11 PM
Ofcourse I wasn't as mad as I may have seemed, but the fact is Lord Sokar probrally put some serious time and thought into this letter. It's an honest complaint, the guy pays a monthly fee to keep a server running so people like you and me can play, and it doesn't show on the Master server list. Thats something that shouldn't have to be patched because it shouldn't have been there in the first place(you would expect a faulty part on a new car to be replaced, would you not?, not a very good comparison I know, but you get the point right?). If you've read my previous posts, I belive the Dev's did a wonderful job and I think the main complaint is with LAE.
Raven, like people have stated time and time again, can't do a thing most likely without LAE's permission first. So they are probrally more frustrated about the nitpicking than you.
;)

I appologize, lets keep this civil, but Master Sokar is dealing with the reality of his problems, and he's not the only one spending money and time on public server's that do show on the in game browser. The reality of someone spending money on a product that is faulty and expecting them to just set it aside and move onto something else without trying to remedy the situation first, is just plain out silly. If we all did that the games would never improve because no one would be playing them and giving feedback on what they think(this goes for all games).

I love the JK series, my all time fav, and I would like to see the series thrive for many more years. But. There are companies like Square/Enix creaping there way online and a whole slew of new games around the corner, it would be a shame to see this game thrown in the closet to collect dust.


:sithm:
eniaC


P.S. The reason I took such offense to your post was the fact that in my situation I can't afford to just throw my money about,
buying new things when I'm not sastisfied with what I have.(being a student and having a family, you know reality)

shock1Darth Rosh's {R^S} Server |24.26.141.235|shock1

Dance Commander
10-24-2003, 10:13 PM
Personally, i could be totally wrong and i imagine that some people will say i am, but i doubt Lucasarts are that bothered.

JK3 could haved sucked ass, but people would still buy it in the buckets, i know i would have. However, when everyone gets sick of all the problems they give up and then go onto the next thing, Knights of the Old republic.

Once they get their money, thats it. Patches are a courtesy.

Many games do change radically with updates. Was i CS v1.5 that slowed the game down to a snails pace (good point tho, JK3 would be better if it was slower rather than random mouse clicking).

Games will always have bugs and unfinished bits to fit shipping dates/holidays etc, look at the recent Indiana Jones Game. That was released early, but buggy, to beat Tomb raider (which was also rushed thus many humourous bugs).

There's nothing you can do which will stop this, unless everyone stopped playing JK3 online, which i doubt very much will happen.

:jawa :evanpiel: <---what the hell is this?

Tyler_Durden
10-24-2003, 10:33 PM
I would like to see proof that it is in fact Lucasarts that is somehow delaying the release of the patch. Just because the president resigns doesn't mean company decisions cannot be made by the vice-president. There's more here than meets the eye....

To me this game just doesn't seem complete, like it was in fact rushed to the stores. A lot of bugs in SP, MP is pretty much DOA and just the fact that it feels unpolished. Add to that there's no first person lightsaber and the game is a hack n' slash fest.

I would like to see what another company can do with this series. Maybe someone like monolith or valve who won't put the game out until it is absolutely ready for release. I gotta say i really enjoyed tron 2.0 and it's a hell of a lot more graphic intensive than JA. i also get a SMOOTH 60+ frames a second. Plus monolith has put out a patch that pretty much fixes the bugs that are in the game.

Vestril
10-24-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
I would like to see proof that it is in fact Lucasarts that is somehow delaying the release of the patch. Just because the president resigns doesn't mean company decisions cannot be made by the vice-president. There's more here than meets the eye....

I don't know much about the other stuff from your post...but I can comment on this part :D. First off, unless there is a disgruntled LA employee, I doubt you'll get concrete evidence that it's Lucas Arts who are holding up a patch (and keep in mind that doesn't have to be a malicious thing, I don't envision LA execs scheming at ways to screw us poor little gamers...)

Secondly, as other people have said, the proof (albeit circumstantial) seems to lay in the fact that other Raven games are quality and generally well supported. I personally feel it was a well made game, I really enjoyed it (ran out of time now that midterms are upon me) and am sad to hear about these kinds of bugs :(. Sadly, Lucas Arts games seem to be declining... time to get out Tie Fighter and Sam & Max!! :D

Darth Kaan
10-25-2003, 01:07 AM
Sokar,

I can feel your pain man. We have 20 people in our order and none of us can get a server to consistantly show in the list (if at all). That makes it awfully hard to enjoy playing the game together.

Anyway, what a shame so many server ops are having this problem after spending their time and money to set servers up that no one can enjoy.

What a bummer.

Akshara
10-25-2003, 01:16 AM
Why not try Qtracker? It's free and is a good interim solution if you want to find servers. I just now ran a ping and 289 servers showed up. Ever since I got it, there hasn't been a problem finding servers regardless of the time of day.

http://www.qtracker.com/

Lord Sokar
10-25-2003, 01:31 AM
^ This has little to do with finding servers. It has more to do with hosting a server and it staying empty 24/7 because if it isn't in the in-game browser, it WILL be empty.

The game needs a patch overall, but I always found that the net code was pretty descent. The graphics optimization left much to be desired. I have a 3ghz, 2mb RAM, ATI Radeon Pro 9700 video card and force power animations KILLED my computer. That shouldn't happen. JK:JO ran much, much more smoothly.

The SP game just seems trashed in oh so many ways. You can start with the movement there. I want a character that runs on the ground, not floats over it. It looked terrible. I walked EVERYWHERE.

Just an update on the server. After two days of increased heartbeats, the server remains unlisted.

If it doesn't happen before the end of this weekend, I'm pulling the plug. At that point, I guess I gotta decide if I'm going to play at all any more (which sucks if I don't, such a bummer) or if I try to put a server back up after the patch, if there IS a patch.

But there is one thing I will promise myself. I will not go through another JK:JO 1.03 patch again. If they screw the game play, then there's just no more point, even if the server list is fixed.

Akshara
10-25-2003, 01:48 AM
I'm aware of the topic... read every post including your initial letter. Simply trying to help make a bad situation better. If we got the word out about ASE and QT more clearly across the community, then the ingame browser wouldn't be such an issue. I looked for your server the other night in both, but it wasn't back up yet I guess.

But if I can be totally honest, it sounds like you're pretty bitter with the whole thing anyway - which is understandable. Maybe it would be best if you just let it go regardless, at least for a little while. Unless a miracle occurs, the patch isn't going to be out by the end of the weekend.

My advice is if you really want to host a JA server, try to help us find a community based solution. And you have to ask the question honestly, a lot of people are using ASE and QT but still don't come to my server: why?

On the other hand, if your don't really want to host a JA server in your heart right now, then it's ok to walk away and put your resources into something else. You can still come back as a player anytime, without all the stress involved.

I'm simply trying to assist with you finding clarity with it all, not giving you a hard time in the slightest. Hope you can read it that way. Trust your feelings...

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-25-2003, 01:55 AM
Akshara,

People do come to his server when it is listed in the ingame browser. I've watched it every day in ASE. I could always tell when it was listed because it suddenly filled up and stayed full. Unfortunately, >90% of the kids who buy the game don't come to these forums to learn about ASE or Qtracker, they rely on the ingame browser and have no idea it is crippled.


Lord Sokar,

If you don't want to waste more money while waiting for The Patch, I totally understand. Don't renew your lease, and start up again after The Patch is released. Just don't go away forever though. We need more good admins to counter all the sucky 13-year-old admins out there.

Take care!

Lord Sokar
10-25-2003, 04:38 AM
^ Awwww! Where did the avatar of the hottie go? Who was that anyway?

I'll probably not invest any more time in the game until after a patch comes out (if it comes out). See what the situation is then and maybe try again. I guess it all depends.

But it really seems like the community is fading FAST. That's really a shame. Such a potentially cool game wasted.

razorace
10-25-2003, 06:13 PM
Do we have any evidence that the community is fading quickly or is it just personal obversations?

Master William
10-25-2003, 06:56 PM
Sokar, do as you want, but you are really just picky, the bugs aren't that big of a deal. It seems to me you expect a perfectly fine game - which no game is.

eniaC
10-25-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Do we have any evidence that the community is fading quickly or is it just personal obversations?

*insert Phil Hartman's voice*
I think people are basing it on the fact that servers that used to be full constantly or atleast when the showed on the master list, are not getting the traffic they had and some aren't getting any at all.
I use ASE mostly so really I can't say if there is an overall decline in the amount of usage, but I used the in game browser just to see how many servers came up. This was during the peek time for the west coast(US), and I counted around a hundred and fifty or so people playing and only about 30 or 40 servers.
Now what this tells me is that only 150 people were using the in game browser possibly less due to GS, ASE, and QT, maybe I'm wrong.
It's just seems that during those hours more people would have been online playing.(wish I had counted how many were using the ASE and such, could have made a proper comparison, sorry)

On another note: most of the servers that do show are Clan servers or Ranking duel servers, I don't think to many new players want to hop on servers when the see a group of cronies with the same clan tag or sit in spectator mode as they watch 1 guy own an entire duel server.

*edited*-There are actually qiute a few people online using ASE right now, but honestly never see that many online, again maybe it's just me
;)

Just My thoughts,
eniaC

P.S. Thinks it's just personal observations :compcry: :guitar2

Lord Sokar
10-25-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Master William
Sokar, do as you want, but you are really just picky, the bugs aren't that big of a deal. It seems to me you expect a perfectly fine game - which no game is.

Wow. William. Are you suffering from ADD or something? This is the second time in the same thread...

This is NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU APPEAR TO THINK IT IS. The BUG in question is costing the people who put up servers for YOU to play on lots of wasted money.

And you think that's.... PICKY?!

Matariel
10-26-2003, 05:58 AM
i dunno what youre talking about with the SP animations thing, ive never heard of anything like that happening, and you also say that youve got a kickass computer, yet it chunks up during force animations? A little voice in my head is saying that it isnt the games' fault somehow...
Ive seen many many many people complain about 'buggy' games when they screw around with their computer so much that it makes it unstable and runs games incorrectly.

As for the server thing, the browser thing is well known, but i dont even use the server browser, i use ASE, like many other people do, and people in the 'community' also knew about the problem, so they'd use a third party browser if they wanted to play online. That said, i RARELY play any games online (i think that people who play CS and JA online are a bit...sad, and you can't join a server without at least one arsehole who ruins it for everyone)

And before anyone screams 'n00b' or something like that, ive been playing jk2 since the day it came out, and JA since the day it came out, just not online..i prefer the more social 'lan' to trashtalk my opponents :)

Akshara
10-26-2003, 06:53 AM
People do come to his server when it is listed in the ingame browser. I've watched it every day in ASE.

That's cool. But why don't more of the people who come here or that use QT and ASE? I've yet to use the ingame browser even one time personally - didn't even bother with it. Most of the people who seriously played JK2, or any other Q3 based game in the last several years, are aware that there are server browser alternatives out there.

So here's a question for everybody...

Why not simply add the following text the server's welcome page...

"Please visit www.qtracker.com or www.udpsoft.com to get an alternate server browser, and see the other 300 servers you're missing!"

Then everybody sees it, whether they arrive from the ingame browser or not, and the word spreads. It's worth trying anyway, until the situation is resolved.

Akshara
10-26-2003, 07:28 AM
On another note: most of the servers that do show are Clan servers or Ranking duel servers, I don't think to many new players want to hop on servers when the see a group of cronies with the same clan tag or sit in spectator mode as they watch 1 guy own an entire duel server.

To all server admins...

Now this hits the nail on the head. Rarely do I visit servers that have some strange capital initials in funky color shemes or cryptic anagrams simply because there's a high probability that either a) the people are not going to be very friendly, b) I'll interupt somebody practicing, or c) everybody's on a team and trying to either recruit you, demean you as a noob, or own you.

And as an OT aside... I also avoid servers where the player listing has more than two or three clan members, or stupid names like "buttslime[>>USUQ<<]" and "[JOTPRNQT]^4s^5U^3xx^5O^4r^00s." When I find a server that the majority of names are either legible, classy, or have no initials around them, I'll probably join. I'm much more likely to have a good time with M'uadib and Darth Chrysalis than with ButtcrAckeRzzz and [LOL]FuQurMama.

One can only imagine what it must be like for a completely new player unfamiliar with Clans and the MP experience. It's probably why "Fairy Forest" always seems so full - though it is actually a clan server, it has a welcoming feel in the name itself. Same with "Chop Shop."

And Ranking Duel servers... sheesh. No wonder there's so many pseudo-FFA duel servers. I don't even bother with a Duel server that allows more than 8 total players at a time, simply because it's a drag. In my opinion, 6 players is the optimum setting for having fun on a duel server... yet some are set for like 16.

One other thing I tend to avoid are servers with several bots on them until someone shows up... sorry Kurgan. I'd rather show up to an empty server and wait for someone else to join, than play 3 to 5 bots. If you're concerned that it won't show up in the server list if they filter ones without players, then add only one or two which disappear when the first two players arrive.

Lord Sokar...

If you want to know the reason why I never even considered visiting your server until you posted here... it was because the name seemed to me at first glance like it belonged to a pretentious clan, which turned me off. Now I don't know you at all, and that's not a slant against you personally - it's the simple truth. I mean it is called
"<System Lords> | OC-3"
in red, yellow, and blue... looks like a clan server to me.

So try changing the name to something a little more welcoming, like simply "System Lords" with no colors, and see what happens. It couldn't hurt to try...

Lord Sokar
10-26-2003, 05:42 PM
Akshara,

The game MOTD isn't going to help if you never see it. Raven/LEC insisting that people use third party utilities instead of fixing the problem isn't cool

The server name (and mine) are references to Stargate SG-1. I like it that way. I shouldn't have to change it.

Why do you not like clans so much? I admit some of them are idiots, but I was planning on starting a clan to do competitions when that gets sorted out (if ever). I enjoy taking on 2-3 people at a time to decide if they're good enough to join, tryout is fun (at least for me). Now doesn't look like I'm going to get the chance.

Sure there are some lame clans... look at BS. I remember in JO there was a =TW= clan that irritated the hell out of me (I assumed it meant 'Tiny Wankers').

Master William
10-26-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Lord Sokar
Wow. William. Are you suffering from ADD or something? This is the second time in the same thread...

This is NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU APPEAR TO THINK IT IS. The BUG in question is costing the people who put up servers for YOU to play on lots of wasted money.

And you think that's.... PICKY?!

You need chill pills ASAP

Akshara
10-26-2003, 06:04 PM
Lord Sokar...

The game MOTD isn't going to help if you never see it.
That's very true, but if they only see it once then they'll know where to go. I always have a harder time writing down an IP address quickly than a http address. There's been several times I found a server that I liked, but didn't write down the IP before joining it. Fortunately QT helped me find it again later.

The server name (and mine) are references to Stargate SG-1. I like it that way. I shouldn't have to change it.
You're absolutely right. I was simply sharing a point of view that I feel gets overlooked by those who've been in the community for a long time. Most new people are turned off by clan names, or servers that appear as if they need to know something to play. And remember, it's generally the new people that are unaware of server browser alternatives. It was only a suggestion to encourage attendance.

Why do you not like clans so much?
Oh for lots of reasons... but mostly because they generally remind me of high school clicks or the local shriners clubs. But being completely honest... it would be a lot of fun to be a part of a regular team for online competition. But to find a clan that isn't a clan, and a team with a good attitude in general... well haven't found it yet. I'd rather be on a team who's main goal is to have fun and be challenged, rather than own everybody else no matter what and take themselves too seriously. That appears to be rare.

Kurgan
10-26-2003, 07:56 PM
One other thing I tend to avoid are servers with several bots on them until someone shows up... sorry Kurgan. I'd rather show up to an empty server and wait for someone else to join, than play 3 to 5 bots. If you're concerned that it won't show up in the server list if they filter ones without players, then add only one or two which disappear when the first two players arrive.

See this is what I don't understand. Why would you rather sit in spectator mode or run around in an empty level than play with a few bots?

My server is setup so that bots are kicked as new players join and I usually boot them anyway when I get a few people.

Yes, people tend to avoid servers that have no players, and they also avoid servers with only bots. So in the end, 90% of people join two or three servers and those lag to death and the majority of good servers get ignored. People's behavior makes little sense...

Just think of bots as a warmup. But at least you're putting your money where your mouth is and avoiding servers rather than joining them and instantly leaving when you don't see 6 human players there.

Hell, I've even been in my server either by myself or dueling somebody and a person will join then instantly leave (even if I say hello to them, etc). What's the point of that? Are their expectations SO SKY HIGH that they can't be bothered to join unless the server is completely full?


Sigh...

Comm539
10-26-2003, 09:25 PM
yes kurgan, lets all connect to the net, join a server and play against...bots. I bet we couldnt do that without joining a server. No. Wow wee arent we daredevils.
Why I dont play against bots:
a) No match...maybe they are for some people *looks around*
b) No match
c) No match
d) Whats the point...you beat a computer...good job. I like to beat people =P

That about sums it up

eniaC
10-27-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
yes kurgan, lets all connect to the net, join a server and play against...bots. I bet we couldnt do that without joining a server. No. Wow wee arent we daredevils.
Why I dont play against bots:
a) No match...maybe they are for some people *looks around*
b) No match
c) No match
d) Whats the point...you beat a computer...good job. I like to beat people =P

That about sums it up


I don't know...that Mon Mothma bot is pretty sneaky;)

I personally have my ASE to not show empty servers, and when I run a server(duel) I put in one cultist in just so it won't show in the empties. Usually by the time I noticed one or more people have joined they leave before I can kick the bot (don't know the command for autokick, really haven't looked)
So in the end bots can be good or bad, I like to warm up with them "before" I go online but will very rarely join a MP server with bots, unless it's siege because once a human player joins a siege server it fills up pretty quick.(wish there were more of them)

But honestly I've been beat by the Cultist, Chis, Chewbacca, and Mon Mothma a few times and I wouldn't say I suck.(you can though, won't bother me).

On another note, I don't think those bots appreciate the flaming, give em a break.

:r2d2:eniaC

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-27-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC}


I personally have my ASE to not show empty servers, and when I run a server(duel) I put in one cultist in just so it won't show in the empties. Usually by the time I noticed one or more people have joined they leave before I can kick the bot (don't know the command for autokick, really haven't looked)



The command is /set bot_minplayers x where x is the minimum number of players (humans + bots) you want on your server. As humans come and go, the server will add or kick bots until the number of humans is equal to or greater than x. So if bot_minplayers is 2, if there are no humans the server will have two bots on the server. When the first human joins, the server will kick one bot to keep the total at 2 (1 human + 1 bot). When a second human joins the last bot will be kicked. If the number of humans drops below 2, the server will add bots back to keep the total at 2.

eniaC
10-27-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
The command is /set bot_minplayers x where x is the minimum number of players (humans + bots) you want on your server. As humans come and go, the server will add or kick bots until the number of humans is equal to or greater than x. So if bot_minplayers is 2, if there are no humans the server will have two bots on the server. When the first human joins, the server will kick one bot to keep the total at 2 (1 human + 1 bot). When a second human joins the last bot will be kicked. If the number of humans drops below 2, the server will add bots back to keep the total at 2.

Thank you.

:r2d22:eniaC

bodstevens
10-27-2003, 11:44 PM
Bravo
FK Unnamed..

"It's the same reason George Lucas could put N*sync in AotC, and the same reason if he put Carrot Top in Episode 3 "

bump bump

lol

shudder Carrot Top uggg

I played rouge Squadron 2 for my GC it rocked it was great.
Then,
I just got last week preordered and all, Rebel Strike, I mean rubble struck, i mean bad 3rd person action, i mean rouge squadron 3. And this game shows more of LAE not listening to the fans and lack of game play know how. How about this, play testing this crap... remember the obi wan for x box (Shudder) that game was going to be our Jedi knight game, aren't we lucky it got canned for PC..I was one of the poor souls who bought an xbox and played this rubbish game..
LucasArts used to put out great games (TIE Fighter X wing, Sam n Max, Full Throttle, Outlaws, JK/MotS, rouge squad 2, Grim ect), but now they just crank out poo poo, no testing or quality control.
I wonder did the prez leave cuz he prob felt ashamed to work for them with all the bad games...
I remember his speach a few years ago "i will make quality games the path to go down for lucas arts with our rich heritige of bla bla bla.."
I ve sent nice emails and get no responce from lucas arts.
Im a little sick of the attitude that "it's a bunch of star wars freaks so just ignore them..."
I won't buy any more LA games.
Oh yeah and Raven should have been able to test the games more (if LA would let them) i mean come on test test test..It would be better and you would sell more games....
(and that lame bonus disk with rouge squad 3 is lame you unlock that arcade stuff in the game so the disk is useless)

SpaceButler13
10-28-2003, 01:54 AM
Will it get fixed? I'm seriously beginning to doubt it. Head on over to the raven forums, www.ravensoft.com, currently with three wonderful threads of exemplary english.

Akshara
10-28-2003, 02:07 AM
SpecialForces...

This game is awesome, so don't buy into all this negative stuff. I played JK2 from the weekend it was released, and I love JA. To me, it's much more enjoyable than JK2 in both SP and MP. Personally I don't really care about the TWL and Clan expectations or necessities. If you simply want to have a great time playing a Lightsaber Jedi game, then you can't go wrong.

My advice is to get the game, play SP, go to Kurgan's Strategic Academy website and study up, download All Seeing Eye for your server browser, and join in on MP asap - and then delete all of your bookmarks that lead to any of the JA forums... it's difficult to keep a good attitude when reading so much complaining, flaming, and all around obnoxiousness. But it's not representative of what's really happening online... most everyone is enjoying themselves.

IMHO... This game is a 9/10, and the best Raven production to date hands down.

----

ps. Besides the server browser issue and a few technical bugs, the game doesn't need fixing. It's fine the way it is.

SpecialForces
10-28-2003, 02:23 AM
Thanks your exactly right.:D :D :D
And you make me feel allot better about JA :D :D :D :D

edit: BTW i think ill stop reading this forum, beffore the major flaming starts.

Thanks again:D

SpaceButler13
10-28-2003, 02:25 AM
Balance issues I could care less about, but Akshara, those are major bugs at the very least.

Merch
10-28-2003, 02:29 AM
Most Of The People Who Say The Game is great dont host servers, are'nt competitive in leagues or ladders and are in it for their own enjoyment, I personally think the game is fun, the bugs are'nt overly bad, but being in a clan myself, I was immiedietly turned off by the CTF and TFFA aspects of JA, hosting a server not on the master list is'nt cool for our clan (WoV) because many of our members connect via IP and sit idle waiting for people which is hopeless cause the server isnt on the master list, Its just dissapointing to see a game that hooked so many people in JKII turn off those same people it had managed to hook and look for new people.

Akshara
10-28-2003, 03:18 AM
BTW i think ill stop reading this forum, beffore the major flaming starts.
I'm starting to feel the exact same way...

Akshara, those are major bugs at the very least.
I have never said that the real bugs aren't serious and shouldn't be fixed... I'm simply sure that they will be because I know Raven's track record. All of my suggestions have simply been an attempt to make the current bad situation better instead of simply sitting around waiting for a fix. There's options that server admins could take to get their server more visible and get the word out, but very few want to put in the effort to do them and would rather simply throw stones at Raven until it's fixed.

When I checked earlier, there were 1280 players online. While that's not CS standards, it's pretty darn good for a Monday night with a broken ingame browser. The point is people are finding a way to play, and there might be a few other reasons besides the ingame browser problem as to why a specific server isn't getting enough traffic.

hosting a server not on the master list is'nt cool for our clan (WoV) because many of our members connect via IP and sit idle waiting for people which is hopeless cause the server isnt on the master list
I understand that this makes it difficult for the clan/league guys... But why keep waiting when your clan members could simply get Qtracker and use QtUplink to start games. I know it's not perfect, but it works - is much more advanced than the ingame browser - and will get you guys online today. Then this whole situation in your Clan's case becomes a non-issue.

Besides the clan/league problems, here's the two things I don't get...

1) Most of the people using the ingame browser are newbies unfamiliar with the Q3 experience, or who haven't seriously played a previous Raven game. Anyone who has knows there are browser alternatives out there, and would find one. Meanwhile, the biggest "other" complaint around here is with having to deal with newbies who spam Katas, butterlfys, and basically make the game unenjoyable... so which is it? Are the newbies welcome and wanted or not?

2) In all prior Raven releases, even with the working ingame server browser, most players use Gamespy, All Seeing Eye, Qtracker, or Pathfinder anyway because of the enhanced features and Buddy finding system. Gamespy is probably the most popular server browser buddy/chat system in the world. Are you seriously telling me that 80% of the people who played EF:Voy and JK2 used the ingame browser only?

I've heard all the comments that everybody's server fills up when it's available in the ingame browser... but isn't it entirely possible that it's not because it's available that people visit, but because the others no longer are? Why are you so sure that when the ingame browser works properly that of the 600+ servers available yours will be constantly full now that there's another 599 servers in the list, hmmm? Maybe this situation is an opportunity to fine tune your server to attract people before the competition really begins.

I know the ingame browser is a serious problem. It just seems like people are fixating on it a little bit more than is necessary. It's hard for me to believe that once the ingame browser works, all of the server attendance problems will simply disappear. Seems just a little too convenient a solution to me. And it still doesn't answer the question why those who are using Gamespy, ASE, and QT aren't visiting your server either.

Its just dissapointing to see a game that hooked so many people in JKII turn off those same people it had managed to hook and look for new people.
And here we get to a little more honest level of discussion... ever consider that LA might not want the current JK2 community to take over JA? Whether one likes to admit it or not, the whole Clan/League thing really scares off new people. I mean they did release it as a new game, and not simply as an expansion or upgrade to JO. Maybe there was a reason for that. It does seem like it's being targeted to a much younger audience than JO was; and parents in general are cautious of their kids joining some online "Clan" because it's somewhat ganglike or cultish. That's a whole lot more important to the LucasArts board of directors than having Red DFA un-nerfed for league play.

So maybe... just maybe... they'd like for the whole Clan/League thing to quietly disappear from this game. It's worth considering, and not quite as far fetched as one might believe...

Think about it long enough, and it makes sense.

Merch
10-28-2003, 03:29 AM
wow, i dont even know what to say, theres so many people that want change, and I dont understand why that hasnt been accomplished, I dont understand why LA would try and hold back Raven from making the game great, I mean if the game was great, more people would buy it wouldnt they?

Akshara
10-28-2003, 03:36 AM
It depends on the target audience. While the Clans/Leagues are a loyal audience, they're a relatively small one in the entire sales demographic. They can keep a game alive, but they also require a lot of maintenance. That patch debacle with JO took a lot of manpower and resources that somebody had to pay for. I wouldn't be surprised at all if LA would like for that to not happen here.

Honestly, JA doesn't seem as if it's being targetted toward the JO veteran community at all. It feels like they're trying to start a totally new series targetted at a much younger audience. Beyond the server fix and basics bugs, I'd be surprised if they change much of the gameplay basics to better suit competitive play. Just my feeling though. In the end it will depend on whether LA deems it an expense worth investing in or not.

Rumor
10-28-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by SpecialForces

PS: Another ps...... FK fallen I mean Fk unnamed, you allways won with kicking all the time in JO what do you use in JA?????

they don't play it (well uj goes around with td's and detpacks in saber only games...)

Akshara
10-28-2003, 04:01 AM
they don't play it

Yeah... I've begun to notice that many of the compaints are from people who either a) don't play JA very much if at all, b) have only played MP a few times and given up, or c) don't even own a copy of the game. Of course there are a lot who do play it all the time, but I've come across posts from many on this forum who have admitted one of the above...

:rolleyes:

SpaceButler13
10-28-2003, 04:11 AM
I own the game and play it a good bit. I like the game a lot. Still, with all the bugs it's like $50 expired meat. I am becoming very angry. I think that marvelous track-record has just been broken my friend.

Akshara
10-28-2003, 04:29 AM
Are you hosting your own server? Otherwise, which bugs are you referring to? I own the same game and rarely come across any player bugs, either in SP or MP, even with an ATI graphics card... why is my copy so different?

I'm not being sarcastic... I really would like to hear what bugs are making you so angry that you can't enjoy the game.

Astrotoy7
10-28-2003, 11:32 AM
KURGAN said it right at the start, this is nothing more than catharsicism.....

To all you kids, that means "whining in a grown up way"....this is how you deal with frustration when you get older....

:violin:


MTFBWYA

*resumes reading NJO : TFP, still in waiting for KOTOR*

Comm539
10-28-2003, 12:52 PM
For what its worth, i agree with sokar.

And for the record, here's my prediction:

A lot of new or just bad players start to play JA, find its hella lot easier than JO (due to almost random saber physics) and think "hey i ownz at this game." No doubt many will join clans, will practice and eventually will get better. Then they'll realise what JO competetive players have been saying all along. There are gaping chasms filled with flaws that mean to play this game on a higher, competetive level is impossible.
As a result, there can be no competetive level.

No competetive level = no clans to run servers and an entire community of casual 'noobs'.

no clans to run servers and an entire community of casual 'noobs' = dead game

Unless Raven supports the community with a patch to solve competetive play, ASWELL AS the SDK, i believe the above will come true (as it has for countless other games).

btw I am infallible. Gf.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
My question is... have you sent this letter to anyone at Raven, or are you just posting it here as a "cathersis"?

Because there's no shortage of "complaint threads" already on here because of the lack of an official patch.

Just curious...

I have been bitch'n on Raven's forums for over a month now!

And only recently did they indicate that the problem is that they are not authorized to release a patch until Lucas gives the okay and that they do have a patch ready to fix this problem.. I think they finally got tired of all the complaints.

So now I have moved over here to start bitch'n to LEC to release the patch.

I figure if both lucas and raven get tired of the complaints they will get their thumbs out their ***** and release a patch already!

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by WadeV1589
Well that was new...

....I think maybe your "letter" needs to be toned down somewhat. It may make valid points but in the end it comes down to you saying you hate Raven's attitude towards the community and will try and stop people buying their stuff which won't go down well with anyone.



Hehe.. flamed.. Hell I would have made it nastier. I spent hundreds on updating my jk2 server so I could handle more players in JA. However, its all been wasted as I should have waited on the hardware until the game actually worked. If it every will work.. at this point I have my doubts. Why allow such a serious flaw for this long unless your purposly trying to harm the jedi community. After all the community needs servers.. the people who are hosting these servers are not happy.. they stop hosting them.... pretty simple equation

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Well, that's true. Some of the Raven staff is very helpful by answering questions. However, that needs to be supplimented by a patch for the major issues and a SDK release to be honest about their statement of better mod support.

Beyond that, everything is opinion. It would be great if we had some official documentation on stuff, but we can figure it out...eventually.

I totally agree with you. Raven is at fault, IMHO, as they should have seen this in the testing phase. WHen you add any kind of filtering in the sever list you should test to make sure that it works. Obviously they didnt even test it. A simple frig'n test.

But now that its released I am not sure where the hold is with this frig'n bug fix. Obvsiously it probably has been fixed by Raven.. and obvsiously raven shoudl think that this is a serious enough bug to release it right away. So now if its true that LEC is holding up on the patch, then they are both to blame. But Raven should never have released a game with such a stupid flaw. Just one frig'n test would have shown that they had this glitch.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
...
Now, I'm not going to close this discussion because I know it's full of legitimate beefs people are having. Why pay to run a server when 95% of the people who own the game can't even see it?

That's a major problem and it needs to be remedied as soon as possible.

Having an exploit like the Rocket Bug or a bugged skin is one thing, but not allowing most people to play multiplayer (unless they use unsupported third party programs that they may or may not know where to get or how to use) is unaccceptable.
...


Wowza! I am so glad you totally understand. I too could care less about any game type bugs which they seemed to roll out patches for jk2 just fine. But when JA got released with the serious server list flaw and now no support at all on it. It is totally baffeling me. I completely do not understand why they do not get it like you do.

Its kind of a simple equation. You keep the server admins happy first.. then the gammers.. Cause the server admins are the ones who spend the big bucks to host these games. Piss them off? Where you going to play?

Doesn't anyone from Lucas read these forums? I have emailed them via their little stupid support thing and got zippo response on this issue. Also did lost of rants on Raven's boards and it seems odd that both are so tight lipped right now. My only guess is that someone who is in charge wants this game to die.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC}
but the fact is I really don't think the "involved parties" really give a hoot about MP, due to the fact that most of their paychecks are payed by children asking mommy and daddy for a Star Wars game for the holidays, guess whats right around the corner, and you guys think it's going to get better....
...
Most companies with superior costomer service/sastisfaction arethe one that thrive for years(except most don't have the Star wars name to sell it.
...


That is a great point that I wish LA/LEC would understand. Hell T2 was release what 2 years ago? And its still more popular than JA is and it was relased 2 months ago. Granted T2 was geared around MP.

But LA has a winner in MP if they would just learn from other MP communities. Hell I still see T2 on sale in the shelves of game stores.

It's simple.. Encourage the MP community and you will sell even more copies. They should have realized this this from the disappointing sales and reviews they got with the SP version of JK2 on XBox. Oiy.. what dump arses...

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
...
How many of you bought this game and many other star wars games in the last few years *just because they were star wars games?
...

Well our clan is based around JK1. However, when I started I was playing Tribes. I only like GOOD MP FPS games that offer good strats and fun play. Also a good community.

Obviously you have to look over the noobs in this community because of the SW factor.. but yes I bought JK2 soley because our clan wanted to get back to our roots.

Boy.. it was fun for a while. A bit bumpy through the patches but all in all it was worth the money.

JA is totally worthless to me right now because we can't draw in any public players in our server so you see only the same players you played with in JK2. Its pretty sad.

I can tell you this I have never bought a previous SW game even though I love SW. I just thought I'd really get into SW FPS. But man have they messed up.

Now.. when they release JK4 or their next SW FPS I will not buy it at 2am on release date and zoom up to my hosting company to install the server. Next time I will sit and see how big the community is before I spend money on another SW FPS. I KNOW I am not the only one either.

So really they only can rely on what you say and hope they get the fanatical fans. But they have alienated a bunch of FPS gammers who even like SW but won't invest in this pile of crap again. So they will definetly lose money. After all I know they have seen a big hit in the sales compaired to JK2. Maybe that is why they are pulling the plug on the game?

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
... Add to that there's no first person lightsaber ...


Try "\cg_fps 1" in console.
Yeah.. thats right.. First Person Sabers.. Why thell play in that? I have no idea. I play 3rd person with sabers and guns.. much much better!

And to all of you who said the patch is a priv not a right.

Your right.. but this game has been sold BROKEN. Yes they can still sell it the way it is but the MP community will never get off the ground. Like I said in previous post the MP community is only like 20% of what it was when JK2 was released.

Geeze.. I wonder If I and the other server admins have grounds for a class action suite after spending money for the past 2 months on a server that isn't being listed. I spent the money on hosting it and buying a copy of JA. I want my money back! (look over license agreement) Damn license agreements! OH well.. I guess I'll just have to not buy their software anymore.

Rumor
10-28-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
Yeah... I've begun to notice that many of the compaints are from people who either a) don't play JA very much if at all, b) have only played MP a few times and given up, or c) don't even own a copy of the game. Of course there are a lot who do play it all the time, but I've come across posts from many on this forum who have admitted one of the above...

:rolleyes:

oh they played the game all right. they have put in more hours than you trying to find solutions to problems that we have with the game. fallen does not because he didn't want to waste $50 on a game that several of his clanmates went out and bought, then nearly threw away.

Tyler_Durden
10-28-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by BF_Hoby
Try "\cg_fps 1" in console.
Yeah.. thats right.. First Person Sabers.. Why thell play in that? I have no idea. I play 3rd person with sabers and guns.. much much better!

And to all of you who said the patch is a priv not a right.

Your right.. but this game has been sold BROKEN. Yes they can still sell it the way it is but the MP community will never get off the ground. Like I said in previous post the MP community is only like 20% of what it was when JK2 was released.

Geeze.. I wonder If I and the other server admins have grounds for a class action suite after spending money for the past 2 months on a server that isn't being listed. I spent the money on hosting it and buying a copy of JA. I want my money back! (look over license agreement) Damn license agreements! OH well.. I guess I'll just have to not buy their software anymore.


I meant for SP. I don't like MP. Although i have played very little JK2 MP i have kicked some ass in first person believe it or not. But this is all pretty moot. The game kind of seems a mediocrity like i said when the demo was released and i think another company with some balls and a better development team needs to take over this series and complete the thing with a minimum of bugs and maximum playability (yeah first person sabers, DAMMIT). The work done on this game and the work done to improve it is unacceptable. I'll probably get flamed as usual for my response but i don't give a sh*t.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 06:01 PM
Yeah.. but my beef is about the serverlist not game play.. I think the gameplay is fine.. If they change it I just adapt.. I dont mind the gameplay at all. I just think that if you have a serious MP bug that should be address immediately.

Example:

Linux 1.0 ded server had a serious MP flaw where using lightning would kill people instantly. They fixed that in just a few days and released a patch.

Why are they not treating the MP server list with the same urgency???? It just does not make sense!

Did Raven release that patch to the linux server without LA permission? If they get permission then why can't they do the same for the server list?

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 06:07 PM
And here is another thing that does not make sense to me but is based on forum rumors.

If its true that the master server list is not showing correctly because they wanted to filter out the bootleg'd copy of JA, then that is just plain sad!

Instead of that they should have just put in the same copy protection they used in JK2. Using CD Keys. Seems to be a good industry standard. I know that this is built into the q3 engine.. They just opted to not use it and build a custom filter in the server list.

I could be wrong, but if two people with the same game and same cd key can not play on the same server right? That would help on warez!..

With no CD key the warez guys just need to take out their old boot leg copy and make a copy of the real retail release. There is no way to filter out those warez versions!

So if it is true that Raven thought up this fitler thing then its was just a really bad idea.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Do we have any evidence that the community is fading quickly or is it just personal obversations?

Dont have the evidence that you want but when jk2 came out the twl gaming community had about 50 teams in ctf 5 man. Now they have a ja 4man ctf ladder. This time there is less than 20. When they dropped the ladder with jk2 there was only like 15 teams. So they are very very thursty for some JA clans to join up but seems that the community is easily much smaller than it was when JK2 was released.

I blame this on 2 main things:

1) Lots of jk2 players felt that JA is nothing more than just a new expansion pack for JK2. (BF42 added more stuff in just 1 of their 2 expansion packs they released ).

2) The master server issue turned a lot of players away from the game.

Right now most of the 20 clans on the twl ladder are actually not active. Our team was able to forfeit win all the way up to almost rung #1. That is pretty sad.. That couldnt happen when JK2 was released. This game is much more dead than JK2 was. I just hope that the patch can put some life into it. THat is why I am here to bitch so that hopefully they will release the patch asap.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Master William
Sokar, do as you want, but you are really just picky, the bugs aren't that big of a deal. It seems to me you expect a perfectly fine game - which no game is.

No.. the is the first game that I have seen that has a MP component that the ingame server list does not work. This is not something that is little or minor. This is about the worst thing you can do to a MP game. Luckily some people do have the brains to go out and get a 3rd party program to find some servers but this is no way little.

I have a feeling you have no idea what it takes to host a server and put it behind some bandwidth and then see it not being used at all.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
That's cool. But why don't more of the people who come here or that use QT and ASE? I've yet to use the ingame browser even one time personally - didn't even bother with it. Most of the people who seriously played JK2, or any other Q3 based game in the last several years, are aware that there are server browser alternatives out there.

So here's a question for everybody...

Why not simply add the following text the server's welcome page...

"Please visit www.qtracker.com or www.udpsoft.com to get an alternate server browser, and see the other 300 servers you're missing!"

Then everybody sees it, whether they arrive from the ingame browser or not, and the word spreads. It's worth trying anyway, until the situation is resolved.

Because this does not solve the problem very well. It still means your server wont be listed 95% of the time. If it is and people join who use the in-game browswer.. they will likely just ignore that message. More experienced players will understand and use it. It's kinda hard to explain the whole situation in 1 line of text.


BTW I never used a 3rd party program with JK2. I just use the in-game browser.. I hate nag ware and I hate banner ware. And again this is supposed to come with the program right? I mean do I really need this crap? Damn program is asking me register it now and I'm almost out of my trial period. YOu think I am going to pay for this browser program just to play JA ?? ?? I am not one of these pimple faced kids who has 15 different games on their computer. I play only 2 games. Right now JA and HALO. I dont need to be shelling out more cash for something I shouldn't need.

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Akshara

...
Now this hits the nail on the head. Rarely do I visit servers that have some strange capital initials in funky color shemes or cryptic anagrams simply because there's a high probability that either a) the people are not going to be very friendly, b) I'll interupt somebody practicing, or c) everybody's on a team and trying to either recruit you, demean you as a noob, or own you.

...

This is probably the biggiest misconseption in any gaming community!!

First, yes, you will find lots of bad clan servers so if you do find one then just dont go there again.

But usually they do not degrade people unless the people start complaining about their rear's getting shot off.

Second, its on clans servers that I got better. Obvsiously you have not yet learned that. It's like chess. You can play people who aren't really good at it all day. You will win some and lose some. But it is enivetable that you will never get much better.

If you find a good attitude clan server and not bitch about what they do, then in a month if you pay attention and learn from what they do you will see that you become about 300% better player than you are now.

Now that I am a good player and when someone comes on my server and start bitching about strafe jumping or rocket whoring I get a bit upset because to me that's insulting to come on my server and tell me I can't use whatever weapons I want to use.

Anyways.. Just wanted you to be aware of that.

FK | unnamed
10-28-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by BF_Hoby
And here is another thing that does not make sense to me but is based on forum rumors.

If its true that the master server list is not showing correctly because they wanted to filter out the bootleg'd copy of JA, then that is just plain sad!

Instead of that they should have just put in the same copy protection they used in JK2. Using CD Keys. Seems to be a good industry standard. I know that this is built into the q3 engine.. They just opted to not use it and build a custom filter in the server list.

I could be wrong, but if two people with the same game and same cd key can not play on the same server right? That would help on warez!..

With no CD key the warez guys just need to take out their old boot leg copy and make a copy of the real retail release. There is no way to filter out those warez versions!

So if it is true that Raven thought up this fitler thing then its was just a really bad idea.


It was not raven, it was LA/LEC.

Raven has used CD keys in all of their FPS's going back to SoF 1.

They understand (as do most devs) that the quake 3 engine key server system is pretty much impossible to crack.

Oh sure you can "key gen" a key but one of two things is going to happen:

The master server will decline the key because it is not valid the second it attempts to authenticate upon first contact.

Or

The master server will accept the key if by chance you do "gen" a legit key, however, that key will be declined if it appears online from two sources.


This is why you can't "give a copy of your key" to a friend and both play online in games like SoF 2, Quake 3 etc.



Raven more than knows the importance in the quake 3 key server authentication system in cutting down piracy, but look at LA games for a second.

Have any LA games ever used a key server system?

Nope.


The decision on not using key servers in their games has to be similar to the way a retail business will "write off" product loss due to shoplifting.

I think LA genuinely believes that their "hard core star wars fan sales" will be high enough that it will offset the loss in revenue that the "hardcore FPS warez people" will inflict.


Remember Raven was *contracted to build this game.
Once it was done, their interest in it was over.

Even if it never sold a single copy, they still got paid.

Granted, any smart dev will want his product to be well received, good reviews will translate into future contracts, but in the end, the sales/future of the product (the game and the community) was really not their concern.

It’s no different than a carpenter being contracted to build something, once it’s done, he does not care what happens to it.

And ultimately, the decision to spend the extra money on the key server system was LA’s.

Once again it just goes to show just how far out of touch LA is with the current online gaming world.

For about the last 5 years those who make the decisions at LA/LEC have really been “locked away in their ivory towers” and totally oblivious the things (both good and bad) that have been going on in the world of online gaming.

Kurgan
10-28-2003, 07:28 PM
Most Of The People Who Say The Game is great dont host servers, are'nt competitive in leagues or ladders and are in it for their own enjoyment, I personally think the game is fun, the bugs are'nt overly bad, but being in a clan myself, I was immiedietly turned off by the CTF and TFFA aspects of JA, hosting a server not on the master list is'nt cool for our clan (WoV) because many of our members connect via IP and sit idle waiting for people which is hopeless cause the server isnt on the master list, Its just dissapointing to see a game that hooked so many people in JKII turn off those same people it had managed to hook and look for new people.

Isn't this just as unfair as saying (for exmaple)"Most Of The People Who Say The Game sucks or needs a patch are just sore 'cause they suck at JA compared to JK2 and they don't want to re-learn the new game and are mad 'cause they get beaten by 'n00bs' and they want everything to be the same as 1.04. They just want to be thought of as elite and since they aren't and can't learn new things they whine." ?

That's not what I think, but that seems like the perfect kind of same logic response one could make, the way some people talk...

Anyway, sorry about that.

Here's my 2 cents...

I play a lot, I'm good at the game (not GREAT, but then who is?), I host all the time, I'm not in a clan (oh I can see the flames now.... since I'm not in a clan that automatically means I suck and my opinion doesn't count [/sarcasm]), and I give thought to stuff, and I don't whine.

The game is great.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it. ; )



Yes, bugs suck and need to be fixed, but what you're doing is saying that anybody who enjoys the game is a "n00b" while you (the elite, the clanners who were "big" in JK2) are the ones who decide for the rest of us what is best.

Despite the bugs, JA is a great game, and you can't stomp on my subjective opinion with your subjective opinion, now can you?

BF_Hoby
10-28-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
....
truth. I mean it is called
"<System Lords> | OC-3"
in red, yellow, and blue... looks like a clan server to me.

So try changing the name to something a little more welcoming, like simply "System Lords" with no colors, and see what happens. It couldn't hurt to try...

LOL.. maybe right now it would but when the ingame browser works it doesnt matter.

Keep the colors.. I had a JK2 server with our clan's webpage as the name and it had colors. That did not stop it from being a very popular server.

BTW OC-3 tells those that know what it means that its got good bandwidth. I hate join'n a server and then when it fills up everyone starts lagging.. oiy!..

Kurgan
10-28-2003, 07:38 PM
Btw, JK2 didn't use a CD key (thank LA for that one, I'm guessing because they wanted to make it "easier" for people to play the game on the Zone... deal with MSN).

As to why JA didn't use a CD key, I guess (due to the above, although there's no JA zone support) they went with the copy protection scheme again (which wasn't so hot).

I would have loved if they had used a Q3 style cd key system, and Raven has used this in the past for their games (SOF2 for example) but they didn't and you can blame LA.

They definately dropped the ball on that one...

Dance Commander
10-28-2003, 10:03 PM
For your $50, or £35 over here, your paying for a JO mission pack. It uses the same engine, skins, textures, voices (so no searching for new actors) and weapons. All you get, is new levels, a few new skins, and a new lightsaber.

If they were serious, they'd have pulled out all the stops, and possibly waited a year or so for the HL2 engine, which is already being used by Vampires 2.

JO was a big leap from JK, and so it seemed great, which it was.

JA is almost identical to JO, so whats the point?


Lord Sokar , maybe you should write to a few games journalists. Tell them your story and see if LA or Raven have a problem with that?


Just imagine, Jedi Knight 4 using the HL2 engine....omg...

eniaC
10-29-2003, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Dance Commander
If they were serious, they'd have pulled out all the stops, and possibly waited a year or so for the HL2 engine, which is already being used by Vampires 2.


I believe HL2 and Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines have been delayed more now anyhow due to some legal issue or pirating, not sure really.

Besides I'm not sure how many people knew that the HL2 engine was being developed, when this game went into production anyhow.

And it's not really fair to compair JA with something that hasn't been released, and not much is even known about how it runs or works. I have a feeling that JAII will be out before the release of this anyhoo.

eniaC

Akshara
10-29-2003, 10:13 AM
So now I have moved over here to start bitch'n to LEC to release the patch.
14 posts on one page with 7 in a row is definitely a good start... maybe that will get their attention. [/sarcasm]

Second, its on clans servers that I got better. Obvsiously you have not yet learned that. <snip> BTW OC-3 tells those that know what it means that its got good bandwidth.
Thank you so much for confirming my original point... no condescension there at all.

:roleyess:

It's simple.. Encourage the MP community and you will sell even more copies.
As I mentioned earlier (which got totally ignored, lol), I'm of the opinion that LA simply doesn't want this game to get taken over in the first two months by the clans/leagues/veterans of JO, and actually wants it to be accessible to and enjoyable by non-"veteran" noobs and newbies. That's why it wasn't simply an expansion to JO - it isn't one.

A lot of new or just bad players start to play JA, find its hella lot easier than JO (due to almost random saber physics) and think "hey i ownz at this game."
Man... this continual condescending crap that comes from the JO "veteran" community is exactly what I'm talking about, and is why I feel the whole Clan/League thing is a real pita. They take over all the forums and repeatedly put down and disrespect anybody not in a clan or who just loves to play the game for fun.

I for one simply lOVe the fact that someone can work extremely hard offline practicing their technique and combat strategy, then go online and hold the top positions on several servers repeatedly over and over again, only to then have the accomplishment degraded by a bunch of condescending clanboys who don't even play because they think the game's for idiots and noobish unskilled hacks who should simply commit suicide (seen that actually posted here).

Despite popular belief on these forums, there's a whole lot of us (possibly everyone who bought the game that's not in a clan) who would be completely happy if all the condescending 1337 wOOt veteran fanboys simply left this one alone and stuck to spam kicking the heck out of each other in JO instead.

There... rant over.

I dont need to be shelling out more cash for something I shouldn't need.
Qtracker is no-ad no-nag freeware, always has been. So was Pathfinder for JK2 and EF:Voy.

But usually they do not degrade people unless the people start complaining about their rear's getting shot off.

Recently I visited a couple of clan servers where everyone ignored me and wouldn't even simply say hello; and I've been ganged up on by clans several times, where I simply had to leave. I rarely if ever complain about a single thing ingame, or about a person's technique/approach, or about losing to anybody - no matter how cheap or lame their tactics are. Yet my experience online and on the forums with clans/veterans/twl's has been a continual stream of "you obviously aren't a real player," "go back to noob school," "maybe you should learn how to really play, little girl," and on and on.

Yet whenever I actually stomp on one of their butts in a game or beat them to a fair duel, do they ever say "Good Fight" or "Well done" and show me a little respect... heck NO - Never. It's usually "lucky b*tch" or something like that. So be in your little clan and believe in your self important magnimonious sanctity all you want and enjoy your delusions of grandeur.


Yes, bugs suck and need to be fixed, but what you're doing is saying that anybody who enjoys the game is a "n00b" while you (the elite, the clanners who were "big" in JK2) are the ones who decide for the rest of us what is best.
Amen to that... there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to just play the game and have some fun; and besides the server browser and some minor tech bugs, JA is just fine the way it is. And I hope the game stays that way.



:lsduel:

Dance Commander
10-29-2003, 01:07 PM
And it's not really fair to compair JA with something that hasn't been released, and not much is even known about how it runs or works. I have a feeling that JAII will be out before the release of this anyhoo

I wasn't really comparing them, more suggesteing that they took an easy option. And if it isn't broken, why fix it? If they didn't know about HL2, they sure know that they're working on Quake 4. Give it a year, and that engine should be up and running, and it would have to be amazing to contend with Doom 3 and HL2 plus a ton of other new games which will come out.

Maybe JK4 could use that.

Would it be JK4? I dunno. In my eyes it should be Dark Forces 5. Kyle Katarn, is a skinny Geotge Lucas! it's amazing!



On another note, does anyone else agree that the MP game is too fast and random? It seems that they're taking the light saber fights from Epidode 1&2 as the basis for them, rather than the fights in 4,5 and 6. They were so much better, but Darth vader would look a twat if he was jumping up and down and flying around doing twirls and spinny s**t.

BF_Hoby
10-29-2003, 01:29 PM
First your a hypocrit for flamming clansmen and then getting upset that they flame you. Too funny. My comments about that was to just point out that your more apt to get better quicker if you play people who are better than you. This does not just apply to JA, this applies to any game you play. If you just sit there and flame on the better players of course they will flame back. Duh. I have not yet seen a clansmens flame on a noob in a server. It is always the noob bitching about something that they do not like in the game that was used against them. And btw you do not have to be a clansmen to play on a clan server and get good. Of course you will get asked to join clans but that is expected after all clans do a thing called recruiting and when they see a good play without a tag they will try to recruit if their team is in recruit mode.

Second every game will always have noobs and leet. Get over it already. I am sure LA and Raven are well aware of this and they did not nurf anything that is usually the biggiest complaint that noobs give which is self kill and rocket whoring.

And lastly you are getting way off topic here with the flames.

The topic is server admins are PO'd because they are spending money on a game and hosting it that does not return the satisfaction of spending the money on hosting the game.

This is bad. Get it? That is why I am here to complain. If you think that we dont have a good beef on this tell us why. I'd love to knock you around some more.

Akshara
10-29-2003, 02:04 PM
The topic is server admins are PO'd because they are spending money on a game and hosting it that does not return the satisfaction of spending the money on hosting the game. Actually, it's an Open Letter to LucasArts and Raven , and I've been trying to offer suggestions and point out possiblities that could either help those admins attract more people, or figure out why the situation is possibly happening. Same thing over at Raven Forums. I've also tried to do it in a respectful and relatively civil manner, except for losing my cool in that last post. Et toi?

I see you edited out the "couldn't stay on topic to save your life" part. Actually, I've taken discussions from this thread and moved them into more appropriate arenas a couple of times now, as Kurgan can attest to with his questions about bots on his server.

My contribution to this open letter is to offer helpful suggestions and opinions, and to say that this game is really great, worth the money, and that I trust they will get a patch out as soon as they can.

First your a hypocrit for flamming clansmen and then getting upset that they flame you. I wasn't flaming anybody earlier in this thread. I'd suggested that one could make their server more welcoming to new people by not making it look so Clan-like, because new people are often shy and hesitant to go into them - which is true. And then I was asked why I don't like Clans, and shared my honest to god personal experience. You can see that as flaming if you want, I guess...

In the majority of my posts both here and on the Raven forums, I've simply been making suggestions to try and HELP you people make a bad situation better. But I guess one has to really want help to receive it gracefully. You're welcome anyway...

With that last post I'd simply lost my patience, and I apologize. After all the stuff I've had to wade through around here and at Raven forums, it's amazing it took so long.

If you just sit there and flame on the better players of course they will flame back. I guess that's a matter of opinion... just because they might be the "better" players of JO doesn't mean that it's necessarily true over here. This is the Jedi Academy forum, isn't it? From what I've read so far, most of them find JA unplayable and think it needs to be fixed. Most of those "awesome" JO techniques don't mean squat anymore... which is why so many are crying foul and calling for this noob game to be patched. [/sarcasm]

And I've been getting what I guess you would consider "flamed" by these boys across the forum way before I began saying anything here.

I have not yet seen a clansmens flame on a noob in a server. Well I have... many, many times over the years. Saw it happen to a guy just the other night. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it never happens.

This is bad. Get it? That is why I am here to complain. If you think that we dont have a good beef on this tell us why. Got it. Anybody who doesn't by now is either an idiot or blind. And as I've posted for the umpteenth time, I completely understand why you're so upset and wish that the situation could get resolved asap. I just don't feel that repeated complaints and reiterations makes one bit of difference to Raven or LucasArts, and that the only people who are getting the brunt of your's and everyone else's anger are the people in this community who actually like the game and are trying to not focus on the negative. I mean no employees of Raven or LA get directly slammed around here - it tends to be directed toward those who make positive comments about the game.

Coming into this thread and making a post stating how upset you are is completely understandable, and I wouldn't have said a single thing... but 14 in a row? C'mon...

Like Kurgan said (and I don't mean this toward you personally)...

Yes, bugs suck and need to be fixed, but what you're doing is saying that anybody who enjoys the game is a "n00b" while you (the elite, the clanners who were "big" in JK2) are the ones who decide for the rest of us what is best. And I think he's the one who decides what's on and off topic around here...

I'd love to knock you around some more. Yeah... you do seem to be enjoying doing that. I'm still not sure what exactly I did to you over on Ravenforums to merit such anger, other than suggest that throwing a little compassion and understanding Raven's way might help to heal this situation better than throwing stones will. But hey, whatever floats your boat... I'd be happy to duel this out online, but I sold my copy of JO a long time ago.

:p

Prime
10-29-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Dance Commander
For your $50, or £35 over here, your paying for a JO mission pack. It uses the same engine, skins, textures, voices (so no searching for new actors) and weapons. All you get, is new levels, a few new skins, and a new lightsaber. I'm perfectly happy paying $50 for what JA provides. And to be fair, the engine has been modified from JO, there a lot more models and skins for all the different characters, many new moves and saber styles, more or less just as many new levels as there was in JO, new MP game types (with Seige being drastically different), customizable character, selectable sabers, and so on. You can consider it a mission pack if you want, but that is one hell of an expansion. But in the end it doesn't matter. JA has what I wanted, and I am willing to pay the price for it.

As for the same voice actors, isn't that what we want? Consistency for characters between titles is pretty nice, don't you think? Are there any of the voices that are bad? IMO, no. Luke and Kyle sound great, for example.

Originally posted by Dance Commander
If they were serious, they'd have pulled out all the stops, and possibly waited a year or so for the HL2 engine, which is already being used by Vampires 2. If they are waiting for the HL2 engine, you would probably be waiting another three or four years. Since HL2 won't be out before the end of this years or early next year, the engine probably won't be available to other developers until mid-year 2004. Then it can take up to another year for a development house to license and learn all the capabilities. That is just to get to the starting point of making a game. Then it takes another two or three years to develop the game itself. So waiting for the nextgen engine might give us a game 5 or 6 years after JO. You might be happy with two games a decade, but I'm not.

Originally posted by Dance Commander
JA is almost identical to JO, so whats the point? The point is that JO was very popular, and players loved a lot of the features it provided, like the lightsaber combat. There were complaints about the puzzles and things of that sort, however. So Raven took a lot of the feedback into consideration, and created a new game that kept the elements that people enjoyed, and tried to add some new stuff that people wanted.

I for one am very happy with what JA provides. I do not require a new engine and revolutionary graphics every time. I just require a game to be fun for me. I loved JO, and JA gives me a lot of those things and new stuff I find appealing.

You may not. But there was certainly plenty of indication that this was the case. It has been known since the beginning that the engine was only a modified version of the JO one, and that the lightsaber combat was an just an enhanced version. So I don't really feel sorry for people who bought the game and are upset it isn't a completely different game. It is their own fault for not checking if the game was for them.

People are perfectly entitled to want to wait for a game with a nextgen engine. But getting upset if there is a game released in the meantime is silly. Plenty of us are happy with these games. If others think it is too expensive and/or don't want to play it, don't buy it. It is as simple as that.

Originally posted by Dance Commander
Just imagine, Jedi Knight 4 using the HL2 engine....omg... I can't wait for something like that. But that doesn't mean I am not happy with JA in the meantime.

Originally posted by Akshara
14 posts on one page with 7 in a row is definitely a good start... maybe that will get their attention. It is pretty safe to assume that no one from Lucasarts ever comes here to read posts. Certainly no one with any power. If you are looking for change in the way Lucasarts does things, posting on an internet forum is not the way to do it.

Akshara
10-29-2003, 02:33 PM
It is pretty safe to assume that no one from Lucasarts ever comes here to read posts. Certainly no one with any power. If you are looking for change in the way Lucasarts does things, posting on an internet forum is not the way to do it. Hear, hear... (I was being sarcastic to him). The only ones who have to deal with the brunt of everyone's anger here are those of us who actually visit the forums and read these things - the well intentioned players who like the game. I sure hope this thread get's closed soon...

:beam2:

Tie Pilot
10-29-2003, 03:01 PM
If you can remember the idea Master william posted wayyyy back on the 1st page about some sort of public chatroom attached to the in game browser and a buddy list, well i think this is a greeeeeat idea as it will probably help decrease the amount of rpers and virtual chatrooms we get in these games.

Kudos to ya Master William

Oh and Rad how does someone go about joining the anti saberist code???

eniaC
10-29-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by BF_Hoby
I have not yet seen a clansmens flame on a noob in a server. It is always the noob bitching about something that they do not like in the game that was used against them.


What a Freakin load of bull****, I've had more clanny's whine about being chat killed, saberdown killed, or just plain mad because they got beat in front of there "buddies".

Just last night in FFA (*edit* House Of Fun Server *end edit*) , we were all just cuttin each other up (bloddy carnage), and some clan member comes in the havoc for a few seconds then runs off, so I chase him down (like I always do). Anyway he tried running off , I forced pull, He lowered his saber, I threw mine in his face. As soon as his carcas hits the ground I see his chat bubble come up and say "LAMER".
On Kurgan's server once same thing happened guys taunts, fights, runs, lowers saber, So I take My time and snipe his a** between the eyes, this clanny called me a newbie, LMAO.

In all honesty there are prob. 5 or 6 clans that don't whine about getting owned and laming (you know who you are, no need to flame me). While the other 333 clans are RP'ing whether or not they can get it up (there saber that is).

I've seen a much larger amount of people not in clans that would have owned half the clan servers out there.

Just because you can kiss a** enough to get in a clan, doesn't make you any better, makes you look like a herd of sheep being led to the slaughter. (w/ the exception of the ladders and clans that actually compete and contribute to the MP communities and keep it going(instead of useless rants flaming folks because of what moves they use, GROW THW F*** UP), to those who do tourney and such I say KUDOS and THUMBS UP.



:r2d23:eniaC

Rumor
10-29-2003, 04:56 PM
hoby was referring to non-newbie clans.

eniaC
10-29-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
hoby was referring to non-newbie clans.


So am I, for the most part.

Rumor
10-29-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by eniaC
So am I, for the most part.

witch ones?

/edit: if you say sin i'll shoot you :P

eniaC
10-29-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
witch ones?

I've seen a few not to name any names, Including partly my own clan ;) , I'm really not looking for an argument especially with f/< , I've seen the site and the forum, I am quite aware that you guys are far from n00bs or teeny boppers, and like I said I think it's great your improving the MP comm, didn't want to mention any names though, whether it be good or bad.

I won't take your flamebait ;p

btw: I played JO, not fanatically and I really don't know the n00b clans from the Vetrans, I came primarily from RTCW servers and even will all the time logged on PEEP's Low Refresh and Happy Penguin, still couldn't keep of half the clans.


and yes |SiN| are ****ing ***'s, I wasn't refering to them though.

I'll try to list a few (don't mean anydisrespect to involded parties)-

{DC} , Jedi , {CT}, there's a couple more, but in all honestly only played once or twice in the last week, things change.
But the fact about complaing when you get beat calling people lucky, I only 12 hp to start w/, newbie luck, qiut spamming, learn a new move is getting REAL F****** OLD, hence the comment grow the f*** up, which wasn't even directed towards Hoby though it may have seemed, and I appologize to him.
The fact is, this is what I've seen, so in turn it becomes my reality.

One more note, I have yet to find a server in JA (besides +/<aotics, which is always empty), where I can find one of the clannys w/ these high and mighty 5/<I|_ |_5i complaining about s*** in this forum actually playing the game, you guys sure do talk alot of s*** though.


:r2d23:eniaC



P.S. sure 5 or 6 clans may have been an exageration, but I thought most people would catch that.

FK | unnamed
10-29-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
Yeah... I've begun to notice that many of the compaints are from people who either a) don't play JA very much if at all, b) have only played MP a few times and given up, or c) don't even own a copy of the game. Of course there are a lot who do play it all the time, but I've come across posts from many on this forum who have admitted one of the above...

:rolleyes:

Just noticed this one, yeah I do not play it much but it has nothing to do with "being unable to adapt".


The game, despite the nerfs, at it's very core is still JK2.

I have no trouble at all not only beating people in JA, but flat out dominating them to the point of frustration where they would do the usual /callvote kick nonsense.


The reason I choose not to play it much is quite simple, there is absolutely no serious competition out there in JA.

The ladders and leagues for my chosen game type (ff/so duel) have no veteran or experienced players occupying the ladders I played on in JK2 and the only people on them now fall into two categories:

Gunners who are just goofing around on the ladder.

or

Newbies that have no clue what they are doing.


In both cases, not to be mean, but it's not what I would call a serious level of competition.

Ladders aside, public servers are just plain sad as far as skill goes.

I go in and just massacre people who stand around twirling their katas all over the place, with strafe jumping and long range push/pull throws.

Considering I've logged in maybe 10 hours of play time since the day I've bought the game, being able to do that pretty much is a dead give away that there are not many people beyond the newbie button mashers playing ff/so in JA at the moment, so why bother?

Rad Blackrose
10-29-2003, 07:18 PM
gg double post Rumor. :p

Anyways, it's been a while since I've bothered to browse through this topic, with all the contradictory/assinine statements being made on contrary to the origonal content (hint: it involved a bug that is taking money from administrator's wallets, and instead of being able to provide a service, it's a currency sink).

I know the minute that I start flaming, this thread will close. And to be rather straight-forward for a moment, a few people in this thread deserve the bashing for completely taking the argument, adulterating it to their own whims, and then flying like the wind.

Combined with the collective cluelessness of people in the practice that is licensing procedure (especially when it comes to LEC, the most anal retentive company EVER... I don't know if it's as bad as Paramount/Star Trek, though), every single negative thread that has started with a "Raven is..." is no doubt going to see a smiting if not by me, but by someone else sooner or later.

While I do agree that the release was a bit premature, I still blame LEC because they had the final say in every aspect. It's a shame we can't get the details out of people like Kenn, because once again it's the bastardized licensing procedure.

This looks to be on the same caliber as the FF/SO community vs everyone else telling them to STFU when they have no clue about the game dynamic.

If you don't have a clue, please feel free to not comment.

Tie Pilot: Search for an old thread in Strategy Shack by
ArtifeX named The Anti-Saberist Code. That will get you started.

And yes, if I hear SiN and non-newbie clan in the same sentence, prepare to be laughed at. Seriously.

eniaC
10-29-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
gg double post Rumor. :p

Anyways, it's been a while since I've bothered to browse through this topic, with all the contradictory/assinine statements being made on contrary to the origonal content (hint: it involved a bug that is taking money from administrator's wallets, and instead of being able to provide a service, it's a currency sink).

I know the minute that I start flaming, this thread will close. And to be rather straight-forward for a moment, a few people in this thread deserve the bashing for completely taking the argument, adulterating it to their own whims, and then flying like the wind.

Combined with the collective cluelessness of people in the practice that is licensing procedure (especially when it comes to LEC, the most anal retentive company EVER... I don't know if it's as bad as Paramount/Star Trek, though), every single negative thread that has started with a "Raven is..." is no doubt going to see a smiting if not by me, but by someone else sooner or later.

While I do agree that the release was a bit premature, I still blame LEC because they had the final say in every aspect. It's a shame we can't get the details out of people like Kenn, because once again it's the bastardized licensing procedure.

This looks to be on the same caliber as the FF/SO community vs everyone else telling them to STFU when they have no clue about the game dynamic.

If you don't have a clue, please feel free to not comment.

Tie Pilot: Search for an old thread in Strategy Shack by
ArtifeX named The Anti-Saberist Code. That will get you started.

And yes, if I hear SiN and non-newbie clan in the same sentence, prepare to be laughed at. Seriously.


Why don't you enlighten us all, oh mighty one. Would love to hear your theory. Honestly I wish I knew more about the issue regarding ff s/o bug, and can't get that demo file of plaZma's to work in "the appropriate thread".

btw: I don't give a flying f*** about your Anti-Saberist Code, either you search it out and post a link, explain it for my n00b'ish a**, or STFU and continue not to browse this topic.


Good Point on gettin back to the topic of the thread, your post had a whole lot to do with it, huh?

"I am a proud man anyway...covered now by three days"
"True hunting is over. No herds to follow. Without game, men prey on each other. The family weakens by the bite we swallow..." -Farrell

eniaC

Rumor
10-29-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by eniaC
Why don't you enlighten us all, oh mighty one. Would love to hear your theory. Honestly I wish I knew more about the issue regarding ff s/o bug, and can't get that demo file of plaZma's to work in "the appropriate thread".

btw: I don't give a flying f*** about your Anti-Saberist Code, either you search it out and post a link, explain it for my n00b'ish a**, or STFU and continue not to browse this topic.


Good Point on gettin back to the topic of the thread, your post had a whole lot to do with it, huh?

"I am a proud man anyway...covered now by three days"
"True hunting is over. No herds to follow. Without game, men prey on each other. The family weakens by the bite we swallow..." -Farrell

eniaC

learn to read retard. he said that for Tie Pilot. are you tie pilot?

gj jackass.

Rad Blackrose
10-29-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
learn to read retard. he said that for Tie Pilot. are you tie pilot?

gj jackass.

Extenstion: Please proceed to pull your head out of your own ass before you decide to even emit a whisper from your over-zealous, pathetic mouth.

You're a free AOL cd looking to be chucked against a brick wall, pal.

Rumor
10-29-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by eniaC
I've seen a few not to name any names, Including partly my own clan ;) , I'm really not looking for an argument especially with f/< , I've seen the site and the forum, I am quite aware that you guys are far from n00bs or teeny boppers, and like I said I think it's great your improving the MP comm, didn't want to mention any names though, whether it be good or bad.

I won't take your flamebait ;p

btw: I played JO, not fanatically and I really don't know the n00b clans from the Vetrans, I came primarily from RTCW servers and even will all the time logged on PEEP's Low Refresh and Happy Penguin, still couldn't keep of half the clans.


and yes |SiN| are ****ing ***'s, I wasn't refering to them though.

I'll try to list a few (don't mean anydisrespect to involded parties)-

{DC} , Jedi , {CT}, there's a couple more, but in all honestly only played once or twice in the last week, things change.
But the fact about complaing when you get beat calling people lucky, I only 12 hp to start w/, newbie luck, qiut spamming, learn a new move is getting REAL F****** OLD, hence the comment grow the f*** up, which wasn't even directed towards Hoby though it may have seemed, and I appologize to him.
The fact is, this is what I've seen, so in turn it becomes my reality.

One more note, I have yet to find a server in JA (besides +/<aotics, which is always empty), where I can find one of the clannys w/ these high and mighty 5/<I|_ |_5i complaining about s*** in this forum actually playing the game, you guys sure do talk alot of s*** though.


:r2d23:eniaC



P.S. sure 5 or 6 clans may have been an exageration, but I thought most people would catch that.

i did say non-newbie clan, right? the only non newbie clans you mentioned would be mine and f/<.

we talk **** when we get it.

FK | unnamed
10-29-2003, 08:28 PM
:fire11: :monkbomb:

are there any good clans even playing ja?

I know aP and +/< play and I know =X= had a server (but I never saw any of them on) but looking at the ASE master list, as far as ff/so goes....

I just see the admin mod newbie clans from JK2 and some new clans I have never heard of.

I don't think there are any "elite" clans or players in this game to be honest.

eniaC
10-29-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
learn to read retard. he said that for Tie Pilot. are you tie pilot?

gj jackass.

Your right, I can type but can't read. As far as being retarded, yes I have extreme case of wanting to mop the floor with your a**, but I know that with my lack of game skill, that would be just retarted and I would never stand a chance against +/<aotics, right?

You guys made that clear on my very first few posts

quote "we talk s*** when we get it"

as do I,
eniaC

eniaC
10-29-2003, 08:49 PM
By no means did I ever say I was elite or could beat any of you in the game. There once was a time when I thought you guys might be a challenge, after doing my research I found this to be true.

btfw: I played JO since the release, and wouldn't say I suck, yeah I had trouble w/ the red overhead swing jump dash thingy(excuuuuuuuse me for not knowing what it's called in advanced) and wasn't elite, but I could hold my own. (and yes I found that JO with no patch was the best, so what) I didn't have the game on my HD anymore, oooh I'm a sell out n00b w/ no skillz.

I appologize for not measuring up to your people's standards of being elite, and I'm sorry there's no challenge for you, or servers w/ the gametype you all prefer.


eniaC

Rad Blackrose
10-29-2003, 08:52 PM
Do you enjoy burying yourself with your own posts?

Master William, meet eniaC.

eniaC
10-29-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
learn to read retard. he said that for Tie Pilot. are you tie pilot?

gj jackass.


Learn to read retard I qouted Blackrose, not you

eniaC
10-29-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Do you enjoy burying yourself with your own posts?

Master William, meet eniaC.

Very much so...picked most of it up from you.


*edited* I guess only the Elite can post sarcasm and useless trash, I just want to be elite so bad...won't you be my friend. :( Why don't you back to RavenForums and flame there, honestly(no sarcasm involved) you were doing a bang up job, and the you might actually accomplish something, what you think you'll hurt my feelings w/ your flames.

Yeah I really give a hoot what any of you ameoba think.
It's just ammusing is all.

Rumor
10-29-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by eniaC
Learn to read retard I qouted Blackrose, not you

i see no disclaimer saying i cant point out your idiocy.

Rumor
10-29-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by eniaC
Your right, I can type but can't read. As far as being retarded, yes I have extreme case of wanting to mop the floor with your a**, but I know that with my lack of game skill, that would be just retarted and I would never stand a chance against +/<aotics, right?

You guys made that clear on my very first few posts

quote "we talk s*** when we get it"

as do I,
eniaC

no, you wouldn't.

we don't start the **** talking, but we will cut down any argument that is bull****.

Rumor
10-29-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by eniaC
Very much so...picked most of it up from you.


*edited* I guess only the Elite can post sarcasm and useless trash, I just want to be elite so bad...won't you be my friend. :(

we don't post useless trash thanks pal.

gj on the flames tho. i suggest you do it on clan boards that way the thread wont be locked. you'll see that you lack skill in flaming as well.

now chill.

www.kaoticz.com/forums/index.php

^ flame all you like there. posts wont be edited or any other sinclans bs tricks.

razorace
10-29-2003, 09:05 PM
Ok, children, that's enough. You're ruining a perfectly good thread. Please take your fights to PM.

eniaC
10-29-2003, 09:13 PM
You know....f*** you all...this will be my last thread on this jacked up forum, so you won't have to listen to my lame flaming, OMG OPEN YOUR F****** EYES, every freakin flaming post I've read sounds like a 3rd grader wrote it (w/ exception of Unnamed)

Good Game, I'm out.
Peace

FK | unnamed
10-29-2003, 09:23 PM
sorry if what I said seemed rude, I was not trying to look down on anyone, I was just saying for me, the competition is what kept me going for so long in JK2 and I'm just not seeing it at the moment. At least not on the level it was before.

Rumor
10-29-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by eniaC
You know....f*** you all...this will be my last thread on this jacked up forum, so you won't have to listen to my lame flaming, OMG OPEN YOUR F****** EYES, every freakin flaming post I've read sounds like a 3rd grader wrote it (w/ exception of Unnamed)

Good Game, I'm out.
Peace

...never said to leave just said to quit flaming so the thread doesn't get locked. also said you could flame us all you liked on our boards. like uj said we don't look down upon anyone, but when someone makes a fool of themselves we'll call them on it.

Lord Sokar
10-29-2003, 09:36 PM
So, my thread has gone to crap. What does 75% of this have to do with servers not being listed?

Clans don't impact the problem.

Nerfed weapons don't impact the problem.

'Laming' doesn't impact the problem.

Colored server names don't impact the problem.

Anyway...

Just an update. Tomorrow is D-Day for my server. Host claims that practically all their servers are being listed now, except mine of course.

So, this is it. It's been going on so long that I've pretty much lost all interest in the game.

Rad Blackrose
10-29-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Lord Sokar
So, my thread has gone to crap. What does 75% of this have to do with servers not being listed?

Clans don't impact the problem.

Nerfed weapons don't impact the problem.

'Laming' doesn't impact the problem.

Colored server names don't impact the problem.

Anyway...

Just an update. Tomorrow is D-Day for my server. Host claims that practically all their servers are being listed now, except mine of course.

So, this is it. It's been going on so long that I've pretty much lost all interest in the game.

Good luck bro, you and your provider tried, they failed to help.

At least you tried.

Dance Commander
10-29-2003, 10:46 PM
If they are waiting for the HL2 engine, you would probably be waiting another three or four years. Since HL2 won't be out before the end of this years or early next year, the engine probably won't be available to other developers until mid-year 2004. Then it can take up to another year for a development house to license and learn all the capabilities. That is just to get to the starting point of making a game. Then it takes another two or three years to develop the game itself. So waiting for the nextgen engine might give us a game 5 or 6 years after JO. You might be happy with two games a decade, but I'm not.

If games developers were really that slow, then we wouldnt have had many of the games we do now. ST: Elite Force came out not long after Q3. As i mentioned, Vampires 2:the masquradiedjdasdadssd (f**k the spelling) already uses the HL2 engine. Rune quickly followed UT. It doesn't take that long really, not dismissing the hard work put in by the developers.

As for how long we'd have to wait, feels like only yesterday JO came out. its quite often more popular on MP than JA still. That seems like a balls up on their end, releasing a game when the prequel hasn't died off.

As for the same voice actors, isn't that what we want? Consistency for characters between titles is pretty nice, don't you think? Are there any of the voices that are bad? IMO, no. Luke and Kyle sound great, for example.

Come on, they're dragging the same characters in a rich universe though it all again... at least a new bad guy. If they're gonna charge £35/$50 for it, then maybe they can take a bite out of Epic's apple: If you own UT2003, you get a discount of UT2004. the changes between them, mirror the changes between JO and JA, and they're only a single year apart.

How often do you see a sequal to a game being so similar, only slightly worse?

Sokar! Tell Games Journies!! They can do wonders with the power of pressure/bad advertising!

Rumor
10-29-2003, 11:12 PM
considering the number of extra maps that ut2k4 has (like 40 some) i wouldn't mind paying for it. thats like 2 whole games worth. lot easier than downloading the new content cause that would take me weeks.

Tyler_Durden
10-30-2003, 05:16 PM
I think the sequel to this game should be Star Wars Jedi Academy 2: Electric Boogaloo with Hulk Hogan as the baddie.

If you only knew the power of the dark side, BROTHER!!

Akshara
10-30-2003, 05:53 PM
Well I tried to refrain from posting so as not to bump this thread, but since it's up here again...

So, my thread has gone to crap. What does 75% of this have to do with servers not being listed?

Clans don't impact the problem.

Nerfed weapons don't impact the problem.

'Laming' doesn't impact the problem.

Colored server names don't impact the problem.

Sokar, I'm sorry this got so far off track. My original intention was simply to offer suggestions that might help server admins gain more traffic while this ridiculous situation continues, which was somewhat related to the server admin topic early on. However, it did digress and go off into some really strange directions (like this entire page???). However, my apologies... it truly wasn't my intention for the discussion to stray so far off topic. I even tried moving discussions elsewhere, but to no effect...

Anyway...

Just an update. Tomorrow is D-Day for my server. Host claims that practically all their servers are being listed now, except mine of course.

So, this is it. It's been going on so long that I've pretty much lost all interest in the game.

I'm really sorry it turned out this way for you, and hope you find peace with it all. I know it's not much consulation, but something else will come along to take it's place. Maybe it just wasn't meant to be, or where your energy is supposed to be going right now. I like to think that when one door closes, another one opens... and usually one which suits us better. Good luck.

Mex
10-30-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
I think the sequel to this game should be Star Wars Jedi Academy 2: Electric Boogaloo with Hulk Hogan as the baddie.

If you only knew the power of the dark side, BROTHER!!

:lol: Thats hilarious! Hahaha.. This guy should work at Raven Software, he makes up better plots than George Lucas! :lol:

As for this thread, they are making a patch. And it will fix these bugs. The end.

Gabrobot
10-30-2003, 06:24 PM
I would like to point some things out. Compare Elite Force with Jedi Academy...would you rather have an Elite Force with great graphics, or Jedi Academy with passable Unreal 2 level graphics? Jedi Academy has many more features than what Elite Force had...much larger environments as well. Since Raven has worked with the Quake III engine so long, they can do a lot more with it then they could when they made Elite Force. If they moved to a new engine, they'd have to work with it longer then they did with Elite Force, to get what is in Jedi Academy.

Also, while I'm at it, I should tell you what technology is behind Jedi Academy. Jedi Academy uses a modified version of the Quake III Team Arena engine...all its modifications are Raven made. Its technology comes from Elite Force, Jedi Knight II, Soldier of Fortune II, and there's much new technology that Raven created for Jedi Academy.

I would now like to point out some games...these are examples of what can happen if a developer tries making it's own engine. Obi-Wan and Trespasser come to mind. Obi-Wan was going to be a sort of sequel to Jedi Knight...it was going to have great graphics and amazing physics, huge worlds, complex game dynamics, great new multiplayer modes. Look at what it turned out to be...a mediocre Xbox game with graphics that could barely compete with games released at the same time as it...is this really what you want Jedi Academy to be? Now let's look at Trespasser...a game that was going to have huge environments, incredibly smart Dinosaurs, amazing physics, very complex and realistic game dynamics, amazing animation that would use special blending technology (does this sound familiar? *cough*Half Life 2*cough*), Amazing graphics with huge polygon counts...oh, and this came out in 1998. Yes, it did have great graphics at the time...but it still sucked. Because of its poor ability at using hardware acceleration, no one could run the game at acceptable speeds, even on the lowest detail level, unless they had the absolute top of the line hardware. Even then the gameplay was terrible, and the game quickly died and manufacture of copies of the game ceased very quickly, after it got scores as low as 35%. Is this really what you want Jedi Academy to be?

Now give these points some deep serious thought and see if it would really have paid off for Jedi Academy to be on a different engine.

Tyler_Durden
10-30-2003, 06:43 PM
It depends on the developer. But then again Lucasarts is not known for it's groundbreaking games or graphics, except a few gems here and there for which the developers deserve a lot of credit. I think that a company like monolith could do great things with this series. I daresay they could do better than raven. I really enjoyed tron 2.0 and the most underrated fps ever, no one lives forever 2. Plus the fact that they developed and produced tron in about 3 years along with a new engine, i think that's pretty damn good and it shows in the game as well. Other developers like Volition and Id making these games would be awesome as well. I think Raven did excellent with JK2, they did alright with JA and i think it showed that it was just alright. The gameplay is great and all, the graphics are ok too, but it seems as if the spirit was lost somewhere. I would really like to see someone like warren spector do a JK game, Deus ex is a great example of how to fuse role playing, action, and first person shooting into one game.

Gabrobot
10-30-2003, 07:02 PM
Well, first off many of the people who worked on Obi-Wan, worked on Jedi Knight and it's expansion, Mysteries of the Sith, and it still sucked. I think Lucasarts realized that they should go with an existing engine for the real sequel to Jedi Knight and they decided to get the developer who knew the most about that engine who could also make a great game worthy of Jedi Knight. I think they made a good choice.

Now, in my opinion, Jedi Knight II didn't live up to my expectations...particularly in editing, but also as a sequel to Jedi Knight. it was a good game, but it seemed Raven had to rush it a bit and cut some corners (hard coding many things like the vehicles), and that was because of all the stuff they had to do to convert the Soldier of Fortune Quake III modified engine into the Jedi Knight II one. With Jedi Academy, they could just start with the Jedi Knight II engine, and add and modify stuff from there, and so Raven could concentrate more on the game itself. Jedi Academy is what I wanted Jedi Knight II to be...I knew when I was standing on a cliff on Tatooine, that Raven had finally captured the great feel of the Jedi Knight levels that was lacking in Jedi Knight II. The editing stuff is more than I had hoped for, and I'm sure there are many things which will be uncovered as more tools are released.

[Edit:

Oh, and I played the demo for No One Lives Forever 2, and really didn't like the level design at all...I couldn't even jump into the creek! Whenever a developer resorts to invisible barriers to prevent you from going somewhere like into a creek, it completely ruins the experience. The levels I played in NOLF 2 felt very small and restricted...the exact opposite of what I loved about the levels in Jedi Knight. Jedi Knight II at least still had a certain amount of largeness that Jedi Knight had.

/Edit]

majin_buu.pt
10-30-2003, 07:11 PM
i dunno how are happening on the other countrys but the elite clans of portugal and america of ctf so/ff aren't playing jka. actually many people are coming back 2 jk2 after playing jka. why? because the game it isn't competitive and so we don't like it. most people are waiting for Xmod 2 2 play a good game. i am not playing jka at all and i am back 2 jk2.

L3onheart
10-30-2003, 09:07 PM
Look, it's majin_buu.pt, the biggest gayest portuguese player :D

Comm539
10-30-2003, 09:26 PM
uhm the only nag about using Q3 engine again that i've heard is that they could have designed it for the newer engines (and not try and create its own engine).
I don't think D3 or HL2 will have poor engines (which JA could have been made for).

razorace
10-30-2003, 10:30 PM
I don't see the point. Changing engines doesn't change the game at all. It's how you use the engine that counts.

Besides, Raven has always been a iD engine company.

Gabrobot
10-31-2003, 12:08 AM
Yes, yes...I was refering to an earlier comment by someone about how quickly Elite Force came out after Quake III, and Rune after Unreal Tournament, and I was pointing out that Jedi Academy would not have been the same game if it had come out so soon after one of the new engines like Doom 3 or the Source engine...it would take much longer since the developer would have to get to know that engine in order to take full advantage of it and get as much out of it as Raven did in Jedi Academy.

Astrotoy7
10-31-2003, 11:28 AM
So, my thread has gone to crap. What does 75% of this have to do with servers not being listed?

You said it man !

The last few posts are quakin on about the q3 engine as well, i hope theyve noticed the othe thread dedicated to that debate :(

MTFBWYA