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Comm539
10-25-2003, 02:17 PM
JA:
7191 players, 2526 of which bots.

In s/o games:
2303 players, 836 of which bots.

s/o ctf games
22 players, 0 of which bots.

JK2:
s/octf games
184 players, 10 of which bots.



After a month or two after release these are the stats for a saturday afternoon. S/o combat is dying. Clearly s/o ctf has 22 players...erm maybe its because of the obvious gameplay bugs in JA s/o ctf that every told you about on release. We want to play the new game, new graphics, new maps. The gamemode is already there. All we ask is that its fixed...or as you can see JA will die.

StormHammer
10-25-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
JA:
7191 players, 2526 of which bots.

In s/o games:
2303 players, 836 of which bots.

s/o ctf games
22 players, 0 of which bots.

JK2:
s/octf games
184 players, 10 of which bots.


After a month or two after release these are the stats for a saturday afternoon. S/o combat is dying. Clearly s/o ctf has 22 players...erm maybe its because of the obvious gameplay bugs in JA s/o ctf that every told you about on release. We want to play the new game, new graphics, new maps. The gamemode is already there. All we ask is that its fixed...or as you can see JA will die.

As you point out above...there are 2303 people playing in saber only games. JA as a whole is hardly going to die. The only thing that appears to be dying is your particular game mode - which may, in fact, not be the most popular game type anyway.

It's regrettable you can't get the enjoyment out of the game that you were expecting - but claiming JA will die because one game type is considered to be 'nerfed' is a sweeping statement that doesn't exactly stand up to close scrutiny.

Kurgan
10-25-2003, 02:39 PM
I admit there are bugs in the game that need to be fixed (namely the rocket bug, skins bug, a couple of map bugs, bad bot pathing and most of all the server display bug). But....


What gameplay bugs are in S/O CTF?


Or are you calling the lack of flip kicks a "bug"?

Just curious. Btw, as far as I could tell S/O CTF was never that big of a game mode. It had a "community" sure, but it was always a small one.

And think about it... S/O CTF is a subset of a subset of gameplay. Just because IT may be dying does not mean that JA itself is dying. That arrogantly assumes that this is the only way that people play or that its the most important game mode (which I'm sure many would disagree with).

That's 22 people vs. 4,643 people. Are you saying those 22 people define the whole community? Surely not...


I am confident that if/when (they better) a patch fixes the server bug, the online gaming community should explode (assuming LA/Raven informs enough people of the change so it can be spread by word of mouth to the people who gave up on the game due to "lack of servers"). To the majority of online players it will look like suddenly a ton of new servers sprang up... while to us more knowledgable fans, we'll see that a bug was simply fixed so that hundreds of servers get the exposure they deserved all along.

Comm539
10-25-2003, 02:48 PM
This has been stated many a time before, but i will repeat it, for you.

The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. It was also the last active community in JK2 in terms of comps and ladders, finishing 1 week after JA was released.

If you really think 2000 players is a lot for 1-2 months after release then your mistaken. 6 months after release, JK2 has in total 8000 online players (and that was 2 years ago when there were less internet connections).

22 players is sadly the JA s/o ctf community at the moment. As stated no clan has ported to JA due to obvious gameplay bugs in s/o ctf.

And Kurgan as you've read countless times before, the bug is not the kick, the bug is not being able to stop and fc who doesnt want to be stopped. Lets not have the same arguement again, as if i remeber correctly, you were unable to suggest any other feasable way to stop someone without reactivating kicks.

Comm539
10-25-2003, 02:50 PM
and omg if your gonna edit the title of my thread at least make it relavent. This has nothing to do with a lack of servers, its to do with the gameplay bug of not being able to stop an fc who doesnt want to be stopped.

Kurgan
10-25-2003, 03:00 PM
Hello... YOU titled this thread "dead" can't get anymore vague than that can you?

I was trying to help, sheesh.. tell me what you would like it titled then?

And the stuff about stopping a FC in S/O CTF wasn't even brought up until a couple of posts ago, your thread starter post was only about the lack of players/servers. You assume too much...

And Kurgan as you've read countless times before, the bug is not the kick, the bug is not being able to stop and fc who doesnt want to be stopped. Lets not have the same arguement again, as if i remeber correctly, you were unable to suggest any other feasable way to stop someone without reactivating kicks.

That's not a bug. A bug is a programming glitch. Leaving something out or removing something is not a "bug."

That's like saying the fact that the Stun Baton and Bryar Pistol are removed is a "bug" that needs to be fixed.

A general complaint about gameplay is just that, it's not a "bug fix request."

The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. It was also the last active community in JK2 in terms of comps and ladders, finishing 1 week after JA was released.

So in other words my suspicion was correct, you assume that the Sabers Only CTF community is the most important one, and since they are not as big in JA as they were in JK2, you declare the game is dying (simply because your group no longer dominates).

If I was wrong about the size of the sabers only ctf community I apologize. I didn't play JK2 continuosly, I probably played it for for half a year starting from its release. But I honestly had never even heard of, seen, or played on a Sabers Only CTF server until I heard about people complaining when JA came out.

I played a few games of Sabers Only CTF in JK1, but found them very slow and frustrating, so I pretty much gave up on the idea and never bothered with it for JK2.

Like others have said, it's sad that your game style of choice isn't more popular, but, oh well?

The modding tools are out now (except for the SDK), maybe that's a better route than asking for a patch (and what exactly would a patch do, besides adding Flip Kicks?).

I might as well declare that FFA is dead because the Bryar Pistol is gone, and therefore the entire game is doomed and demand that a patch add the Bryar pistol to the game, when it would be far easier for me to just release a mod that added the weapon in and be done with it, if that's all that's stopping me from enjoying the game.

StormHammer
10-25-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
If you really think 2000 players is a lot for 1-2 months after release then your mistaken. 6 months after release, JK2 has in total 8000 online players (and that was 2 years ago when there were less internet connections).

And as you are well aware, due to the flaw with the in-game server browser, many people simply cannot see servers to play on, and probably think the game has quite a small community. Until that is fixed, of course there will not be as many players online, unless they all realise they need to get a 3rd party server browser in the meantime.

And as for your claim that so/ctf was the biggest community in terms of JK2...then why aren't people still playing it, if (a) it was so good, and (b) JA is so bad? By your own statistics...184 players hardly constitutes a 'major' part of the community.

If the community was so strong and dedicated to that particular game type...then you have to ask yourself why they are not still playing it. This has nothing whatever to do with JA - because it is mind-numbingly easy for dedicated people to still continue playing that game-type in JO, the way they want, if they so wished.

So I think the change within the community must be more fundamental than the fact that JA came out and offered something different.

Essentially, what was the state of the community just before JA arrived? Are you saying the number of players suddenly dropped from many hundreds (or even thousands) to less than 200? Just like that? Forgive me if I find that incredibly hard to swallow.

Kurgan
10-25-2003, 03:06 PM
That's a good point SH... if S/O CTF was so perfect a gamemode in JK2, it should still be popular in that game.

All the mod tools for JK2 have been out for a long time, there's nothing stopping folks from making new maps to keep it fresh.

And if its ported to JA exactly as it was in JK2, how will that extend its popularity? All you're adding are a few subtle changes (like radar and voice commands, most of which wouldn't be relevant to S/O CTF anyway) and two new sabers.

JA can't be expected to save S/O CTF if that game mode was already dying in JK2.

Darth Kaan
10-25-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
This has been stated many a time before, but i will repeat it, for you.

The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. It was also the last active community in JK2 in terms of comps and ladders, finishing 1 week after JA was released.

If you really think 2000 players is a lot for 1-2 months after release then your mistaken. 6 months after release, JK2 has in total 8000 online players (and that was 2 years ago when there were less internet connections).

22 players is sadly the JA s/o ctf community at the moment. As stated no clan has ported to JA due to obvious gameplay bugs in s/o ctf.

And Kurgan as you've read countless times before, the bug is not the kick, the bug is not being able to stop and fc who doesnt want to be stopped. Lets not have the same arguement again, as if i remeber correctly, you were unable to suggest any other feasable way to stop someone without reactivating kicks.

Dude........

Up the saber damage scale, reduce the blocking and fix the problem your bitching about.

I play SO/CTF all the time with a group of 20 and we have no problem stopping most FC's. The key word being MOST, since Good FC's are hard to kill anyway, especially when they play smart in SO/CTF. It's the nature of the gametype, whether in JKO OR JA.

.:Silver:.
10-25-2003, 04:51 PM
I'm a big s/o ctf fan from JO. In JA it's not real easy to have much fun with it though. However, the two Chop Shop servers solve many of JA's s/o pitfalls by giving saberists the most deadly weapon. These servers still allow players to use guns, but have ramped up the damage scale on sabers so much that one clean hit will kill anyone. Those who are masters at guns will still be good, but those of us who were masters with the saber in JO can now hold our own. It's not s/o ctf, but it can be just as satisfying once you get familiarized to the new settings.

CaptainJackZ
10-25-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan:
All the mod tools for JK2 have been out for a long time, there's nothing stopping folks from making new maps to keep it fresh.
this is true kurg, but the problem is, people will not download custom maps to get into a server. I don't know why bu they just don't. Lots of s/o ctf servers had custom maps, but thy didn't last long at all. I sorta thought of JA as un upgrade of JO, but it doesn't reallyseem like this is the case. If raven release the sdk, JA s/o ctf will become strong again, but that seems to be becomming a bigger and bigger if...*sigh*

Comm539
10-25-2003, 09:19 PM
The stats i posted show JK2 s/o ctf is still popular...but ppl want to move on to the new game...new maps...better graphics...the posibilty of more players.

And the problem we have is a gameplay bug not a programming bug, a gameplay bug. Since there is no way to stop an fc, there is a flaw in the gameplay...hence the bug.

Reitterating, stopping some random fc is a doddle. Its when better fcs play. It was hard in JK2, but it is now impossible in JA. If you dont understand why, dont even bother replying to this post. I mean it. Go away. Comments like 'use guns' or 'i can do it' are pointless and unhelpful. If you have no knowledge of competetive play, dont comment.

Finally, we're not the most important community, i dont think any community is more or less important than the others. All we ask is that our gamemode (which the devs have added) is fixed...remeber a toggleable patch would mean no other gamemode is affected. Kappesh? Good Fight.

Prime
10-25-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. I have a hard time beleiving that. When I played JO, in my browser there were always tons more servers and players playing FFA and Duel gametypes. Looking in the All Seeing Eye for JA right now, I see 19 CTF servers, 10 of which are empty. There are several hundred FFA servers and over a hundred Duel servers. What are you basing your claim on?

eniaC
10-25-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
The stats i posted show JK2 s/o ctf is still popular...but ppl want to move on to the new game...new maps...better graphics...the posibilty of more players.

Then Why don't they do that, maybe there would be more s/o ctf servers.


http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2280&sound=297
http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2295&sound=297
http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2304&sound=297

eniaC

bodstevens
10-25-2003, 11:15 PM
I have played alot of s/o CTF.
Anyone who knows anything about s/o CTF JO, knows that:
FK, =X=, Div3rse, JW, and countless other s/o CTF players, are very good at the game.
I have yet to see or play any players who can beat on these players consistently.
They know about s/o FF period.
All because of one simple fact...
If you play alot of s/o CTF you learn to kill the flag carrier very, very fast and efficient.
I have seen that the best s/o CTF players are always good duelers.
Remember Idiot Savant anyone?
Kick was an opening for returning the flag not a Spam move.
The players would use team work (better than in siege imo..) to use team heal, energize and drain to help keep the FC alive and defend him as he ran from the other team to return the flag. All very fast and over and over it would go.
I like many others play the JK series to play with a lightsaber and force powers.
But thatís just my take on this game.
Please correct me but there are better gun games than the JK 2 3 ones.
Yes having force powers is cool with guns, but donít feel like melee fighting, just feels like other Q3 ,Half-life or UT games with power ups on.
Players are still playing counter strike still after 100 years....
Even the Q3 ,MOH, SOF's,BF1942's and UT games are better gun games than JK ones (except DF of course).
For example: the E 11 blaster rifle is horrible for to hit things for example and other guns are just splash damage guns and on and on.. The UT flak cannon is the Golan arms gun..

I and lots of people play JK for being able to do Jedi things like using a lightsaber and force powers (its sad I know) you may disagree and thatís cool.
Other games canít mod in light sabers because Lucas arts will shut them down.
But if I wanted to say, super speed around really fast hopping and jumping really high shooting plasmas / rockets type stuff, I can play other before mentioned gun games and get the power up's ect and have the same experience ( and more maps and players too).
But I want to play something different, s/o FF is new and is melee fighting up close really is fresh to me. To do this online against skilled players is really fun and no other game can do it with light sabers and Jedi skills.
I found that CTF is very sports like as both teams are trying to out score the other team, so no dueling or RPG stuff just play as a team or lose.
So if any of you get a chance I urge you to try JO s/o CTF on the little servers left, play for a bit. Then use an alternate method for finding a game (like ASE or lame spy) and then play JA s/o CTF and you all will understand what they are saying.
So far in JA the chop shopsí servers have the right idea but need an s/o one.

Cheers

:)

g//plaZma
10-25-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC}
Then Why don't they do that, maybe there would be more s/o ctf servers.


http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2280&sound=297
http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2295&sound=297
http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2304&sound=297

eniaC

Because if you've read the threads for the past few months, it's not possible to kill an FC in ff/so CTF if the FC knows what they're doing (in competition play, not the regular pub games where you just connect and play) resulting in a complete stalemate. Not such a fun thing.

eniaC
10-26-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Because if you've read the threads for the past few months, it's not possible to kill an FC in ff/so CTF if the FC knows what they're doing (in competition play, not the regular pub games where you just connect and play) resulting in a complete stalemate. Not such a fun thing.

Sorry, makes sense.
Excuse the naive questions but can't you just turn ff off, until the problem is fixed.
Don't know to much about tourney play so appologize in advance if this is a stupid request.

Origanally posted by Comm539-
"You people are so pathetic. Its a game. Its not a major issue you either think its a good or bad idea, not quote some canon trash (because btw sabers should be one hit killers!!!1111oneonetwotwo)"
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116056

hmmm?

eniaC

g//plaZma
10-26-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC}
Sorry, makes sense.
Excuse the naive questions but can't you just turn ff off, until the problem is fixed.
Don't know to much about tourney play so appologize in advance if this is a stupid request.

Hey, it's cool.

Actually, turning force off until the problem is fixed would make the gametype dreadfully boring, and make it just like every other FPS's CTF, minus the guns.

Force just added a whole new element to the gametype and made it worthwhile to play. Subtract the force and you just got a saber and a guy with your flag running and strafejumping as fast as he can along cliffs and other things he could have potentially gotten force pushed/pulled/kicked off of if force was on. But instead, you gotta chase him with a lightsaber and hardly any tactical teamwork other than everyone on your team chasing the FC in a giant mob, hoping to hit him by chance.

.:Silver:.
10-26-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by bodstevens
Remember Idiot Savant anyone?


All too well. Every time we played on the same server we would have to play opposite of each other. Otherwise, the teams would be too lopsided.

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-26-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by bodstevens

So far in JA the chop shopsí servers have the right idea but need an s/o one.

Cheers

:)

Well the s/o ff CTF crowd are a very elite and competitive group of players, with their own clans, servers, TWL, etc. It's like the golfers on the PGA or LPGA tour compared the vast majority of golfers who play for fun and relaxation, so I don't think there would be enough demand for me to justify making one of my servers a s/o ff CTF-only public server.

I see my role differently. Everyone has to start somewhere. The current competitive CTF players were not born with flags on their backs. Before you can have experienced, skilled, competitve, hard-core CTF players, you have to have beginner CTF players. There are a lot of online players who think online FPS gaming = deathmatch\FFA. Maybe some try or specialize in dueling, but many have never tried or even heard of CTF, and would never imagine joining an all-CTF server.

One of the hallmark features of all Chop Shop servers (even the JK2 Instagib server) is changing gametypes during the map rotation. Currently both JA servers have a rotation of 5 FFA maps, then 5 CTF maps, then 1 Team FFA map (to ease the transition from CTF to FFA). What happens is the FFA players suddenly find themselves in the first of 5 consecutive CTF maps. Most of them stick around and play their first-ever CTF games (I can tell they've never played before because a lot of them ask "I have the flag, what do I do with it?" "Where do I take this flag?" "I took the flag to our base, where do I plant it?"). Of course, as we all know, CTF is a lot of fun at any level of expertise, so a lot (not all) of former deathmatch\FFA only players discover a new love. Some of them will become the TWL CTF players of the future.

That being said, I was planning on making one of the servers all-CTF after the browser patch comes out. It would be easy enough for me to have a rotation alternating 5 full-weapon CTF maps with 5 saber-only CTF maps. The other server would remain FFA-CTF-TFFA to introduce (seduce?) new players to CTF. The CTF server would let the beginning and intermediate CTF players gain experience in a less-competitve environment than TWL, and introduce the full-weapon CTF players to the subtleties of saber-only CTF. We'll see how it goes. Just consider Chop Shop to be part of the "farm" leagues for the "big leagues" of TWL.

Akshara
10-26-2003, 06:12 AM
I'm from the original EF:Voyager CTF community, so I've had prior experience with competitive CTF play. JK2 s/o CTF never really worked for me, mainly because it seemed unbalanced and too difficult for average players - as if it were really meant to have the other weapons or something.

With JA, I've played several s/o CTF games online (I actually think one of them was on Chop Shop?), and it's actually a whole lot more enjoyable. Seemed very competitive, and with a good team using some defensive strategy we were able to get our flag back and stop the FC with no problem. New people seemed to get into it more, and the scores were really close.

But instead, you gotta chase him with a lightsaber and hardly any tactical teamwork other than everyone on your team chasing the FC in a giant mob, hoping to hit him by chance.

Hmmm... I guess I don't get the problem... why can't the team who's flag is stolen simply have midfielders who cut off the FC? Or have one or more members on defense who's job is to Force Pull/Push the FC until someone catches them? And why would any experienced team allow everyone to chase the FC like a giant mob, when two or three can cover it? I've personally chased down or cutoff and returned the flag several times, or pulled him into a group of teamates - it wasn't really that difficult, and simply required that I ration my force pool... the FC's gonna run out of force at some point as well, you know. Do the league servers bump up the force regen time or something?

It's just going to require learning a little different strategy at first, but it's totally possible for a good team to catch the FC. I'm a little surprised that league players, who have advanced experience is this arena, would actually be complaining about this. You'd think they would enjoy a little challenge after two years of playing the same thing over and over again.

Wanna talk about messing up CTF? The devs of Elite Force 2 (Ritual) actually released a CTF mode based on total score, not flag captures. So the team with the most kills won, regardless of whether you captured 6 flags and they only had 1. It was ridiculous.... point being, it could be a whole lot worse.

Out of the box, I'm enjoying JA's s/o CTF much more than I did with JO. Great fun....

CaptainJackZ
10-26-2003, 11:47 AM
So, an average player can't be good at playing jk2? Then what they do is become not an average player. We all started just like you, know idea what we were doing. We've all come a long way from there, but it takes time and practice. You can't expect to be good at a game the minute you take it out of the box, so why would u think this would be the case with s/o ctf in jk2? Sure you can do it in JA, but there really is no skill or teamwork required in JA. If you have the staff and ur returning, consider your job done. It can do more damage than anything else, even though it's one of the fastest moves. Consider this and tell me if it makes sense to you, someone with staff slashes me once, and I'm dead. I try that with the much slower, whch should be stronger, strong style, and it barely does any damage at all. That's just stupid. It really does take no skill to play JA when ur doing saber only. Even rage dfa's do absoloutely nothing now. I reallly do not enjoy playing this game. I'll probably stick with jk2 until raven release a path, or at least the sdk soo good modders can improve the game.

g//plaZma
10-26-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Akshara
Hmmm... I guess I don't get the problem... why can't the team who's flag is stolen simply have midfielders who cut off the FC? Or have one or more members on defense who's job is to Force Pull/Push the FC until someone catches them? And why would any experienced team allow everyone to chase the FC like a giant mob, when two or three can cover it? I've personally chased down or cutoff and returned the flag several times, or pulled him into a group of teamates - it wasn't really that difficult, and simply required that I ration my force pool... the FC's gonna run out of force at some point as well, you know. Do the league servers bump up the force regen time or something?

Because in competition play, the FC will almost always have an energizer or two or maybe a healer, with absorb and speed on, making it impossible to kill/pull/push the FC off of a ledge (which in JK2 was made possible by kicks) and BTW, with the untactical comment about it, I was talking about NF CTF. And no, force regen stays at default (200) on league/ladder games.

It's just going to require learning a little different strategy at first, but it's totally possible for a good team to catch the FC. I'm a little surprised that league players, who have advanced experience is this arena, would actually be complaining about this. You'd think they would enjoy a little challenge after two years of playing the same thing over and over again.

Yes, a good team may be able to catch up to the FC but how about two evenly or closely matched teams? Stalemate.

Kurgan
10-26-2003, 02:00 PM
I assume you guys are using g_saberdamagescale 2 right?

I guess another possible solution would simply to disable team heal or team energize (or both) until a better solution is found.

I suggested CTY and Amidala suggested upping the game speed, but it seems nobody wanted to go for that.

Blankie
10-26-2003, 03:12 PM
The best solution would be just keep playing JO. I was thinking about it and aside from 2 new saber styles and the nerfs the S/O CTF community is complaining about... nothing will change.

Same force powers (except the grip nerf they want removed)

Same saber attacks (except specials costing force which they want removed and katas that won't hit a flag runner anyways)

No Kick (which they want re-added)

New maps (which they hate, -elevators, spawns, health, etc... you could port the maps anyways I think)

I guess my question is... why does the S/O CTF community WANT to play JA?

For the record, I hope kick will be re-added but based on raven's past patching experience... I won't hold my breath.

Blank

Blankie
10-26-2003, 04:31 PM
well let's just pretend that never happened then :)

Who would of thought the giant "DELETE POST?" at the top of the screen meant... delete post.

Blank

Comm539
10-26-2003, 04:31 PM
Origanally posted by Comm539-
"You people are so pathetic. Its a game. Its not a major issue you either think its a good or bad idea, not quote some canon trash (because btw sabers should be one hit killers!!!1111oneonetwotwo)"
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthre...threadid=116056

hmmm?



well this affects the entire game...the game stalemates. Its not an arguement over whether anikan should block lightening with level 3 defence and what button he should press it with. Or one of your other 'crucial' arguements over the devastating bug that means a dead body moves when you lightening it. As i said, you people are so pathetic.

JA= new maps, better graphics, wider community (for recruting), competitions.
JA has everything already coded for our gamemode to work perfectly again...all that we ask is that theres a toggleable command to turn the features on.

noide
10-26-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by .:Silver:.
I'm a big s/o ctf fan from JO. In JA it's not real easy to have much fun with it though. However, the two Chop Shop servers solve many of JA's s/o pitfalls by giving saberists the most deadly weapon. These servers still allow players to use guns, but have ramped up the damage scale on sabers so much that one clean hit will kill anyone. Those who are masters at guns will still be good, but those of us who were masters with the saber in JO can now hold our own. It's not s/o ctf, but it can be just as satisfying once you get familiarized to the new settings.

i played at chop shop the other day and it was packed with people who just had staff saber running slashing randomly and when they actually scratched something and kill them theyd go like "owned" and **** like that. i mean people think that upping the dmg scale is going to help but it just means that there is no skill or tactics involved in returning the flag just pulling and slashing the fc like an idiot and he dies cuz a scratch does i dunno 200 dmg.

g//plaZma
10-26-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by noide
i played at chop shop the other day and it was packed with people who just had staff saber running slashing randomly and when they actually scratched something and kill them theyd go like "owned" and **** like that. i mean people think that upping the dmg scale is going to help but it just means that there is no skill or tactics involved in returning the flag just pulling and slashing the fc like an idiot and he dies cuz a scratch does i dunno 200 dmg.

Well, ChopShop is an instagib pub server and teamwork was always just a far-off dream in pubs. It's a great server when you want to play some quick games and stuff. Upping the damage scale can make pub games more fun but will make competition matches a lot less interesting.

Akshara
10-26-2003, 05:28 PM
The other night at around 4am on Chop Shop we had an awesome team based game, where the team leader was directing everyone into squads, everyone played their individual part and stuck with it, and it was a total blast. The other team simply couldn't get our flag... and when they did, we always got it back very quickly. It was exciting, tense, challenging, strategic, and an amazing good time. Several of our team were new to the game and totally fell in love with it right then. Reminded me of great team based CTF from the EF:Voyager days.

You guys seriously need to play more. There's some really great stuff happening online... seems like everyone's too busy complaining to notice though. If you guys gave this game a serious chance with an open mind, you might actually enjoy it a little bit. However, regardless of the supposed gameplay differences, I'm enjoying JA MP a whole lot more than I ever did JO, and that's all that matters to me. I'm not striving to become a JA master... simply wanting to have a high enjoyment to money spent ratio. So far, I've definitely gotten my money's worth.

JA rocks! Thank you Raven!!!!!

Now back to our regularly scheduled bitchfest...

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-26-2003, 05:53 PM
g//plaZma and Akshara have it exactly right, noide. As I mentioned in my post above, I don't intend my servers to be for advanced TWL CTF players. I'm trying to enlarge the community as a whole and CTF in particular by introducing new players to CTF and getting them excited about it. Let's face it, if a newbie (in the original non-pejoritive usage) tries CTF for the first time and doesn't have fun, he's going to say "CTF sucks!" and never wan't to play it again. But if I make it easier for them to get kills and contribute to their team, they will be more likely to think "CTF roXXors!" and play more. Then someday they might grow up to be good tactical and strategic CTF players.

And sometimes it's just fun to blow off some steam and "go noob style" as some old pros say when they come to my servers, and just enjoy slashing and killing and capping for the fun of it. It's also great when a really good competitive CTF player comes and shows the beginners how it's done, strafe-jumping and all (even just using team chat binds instead of regular chat to give instructions, for God's sake). So just change your name so none of your TWL friends will know you are there, "go noob style", and have fun!

eniaC
10-26-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
As i said, you people are so pathetic.


http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=1709&sound=298
http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=1713&sound=298
http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=3910&sound=298
;)

eniaC


*edited* I see your point about no s/o ctf regardless of force or not there where only 3 server's when I checked, one in the U.K., one in Portugal, and one in the U.S. that was half full of bots w/ no players.
Could see where that could suck not being able to play s/o ff ctf even if you wanted to due to lack of servers if thats your main attraction to MP.

Comm539
10-26-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
The other night at around 4am on Chop Shop we had an awesome team based game, where the team leader was directing everyone into squads, everyone played their individual part and stuck with it, and it was a total blast. The other team simply couldn't get our flag... and when they did, we always got it back very quickly. It was exciting, tense, challenging, strategic, and an amazing good time. Several of our team were new to the game and totally fell in love with it right then. Reminded me of great team based CTF from the EF:Voyager days.

You guys seriously need to play more. There's some really great stuff happening online... seems like everyone's too busy complaining to notice though. If you guys gave this game a serious chance with an open mind, you might actually enjoy it a little bit. However, regardless of the supposed gameplay differences, I'm enjoying JA MP a whole lot more than I ever did JO, and that's all that matters to me. I'm not striving to become a JA master... simply wanting to have a high enjoyment to money spent ratio. So far, I've definitely gotten my money's worth.

JA rocks! Thank you Raven!!!!!

Now back to our regularly scheduled bitchfest...


Congrats you understand that its fun. As you said, you were on a pub server with noobs. Although you might find that fun, after the first 2 games i just get bored of running behind some guy who lightenings people for a living, spamming blue style. Thats not fun. Thats not skillful. Really, its you who needs to see an organised game. Then you may see how the game stales every time...thats not fun.

Akshara
10-26-2003, 09:38 PM
Not a single veteran or experienced player is even playing it.
I understand... but I've seen this kind of thing happen in so many online communities over the years. A large following happens and a group becomes really experienced... then a new version comes out with different gameplay and everything goes out the window. Inevitably and understandably those who are good at the earlier version hate the new one and call it "unplayable." The old community can't and doesn't migrate over, and the game is declared "dead."

Meanwhile, a whole new group of people show up having never really played the original and nothing to compare the game to. They simply learn how to play it from scratch, and develop strategies and techniques based on the gameplay style. Over time several get really good and an entire community based around these players begins to develop. New veterans and experienced players start to take pride in their accomplishment and how far the community has come.

Then a new version comes out that changes the gameplay, and these veterans can't migrate to the new techniques and call the game "unplayable." And so it begins again...

And on and on and on and on.... it never ends. I've seen it happen too many times to be able to take it seriously. Raven might patch up a few things, but in general you all are just gonna have to learn to deal with and develop new techniques, or simply not play the game. A new community will arise around this game whether you're a part of it or not... it's the simple truth.

Really, its you who needs to see an organised game. Then you may see how the game stales every time...thats not fun.

I actually would like to. And I am sorry that this has ruined your ability to have fun with it... truly. Another game will come along that inspires you, just as this one will for somebody as yet undiscovered. It's just like the cycle of the seasons...

There's nothing new under the sun.

FK | unnamed
10-26-2003, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Well the s/o ff CTF crowd are a very elite and competitive group of players, with their own clans, servers, TWL, etc. It's like the golfers on the PGA or LPGA tour compared the vast majority of golfers who play for fun and relaxation, so I don't think there would be enough demand for me to justify making one of my servers a s/o ff CTF-only public server.

I see my role differently. Everyone has to start somewhere. The current competitive CTF players were not born with flags on their backs. Before you can have experienced, skilled, competitve, hard-core CTF players, you have to have beginner CTF players. There are a lot of online players who think online FPS gaming = deathmatch\FFA. Maybe some try or specialize in dueling, but many have never tried or even heard of CTF, and would never imagine joining an all-CTF server.

One of the hallmark features of all Chop Shop servers (even the JK2 Instagib server) is changing gametypes during the map rotation. Currently both JA servers have a rotation of 5 FFA maps, then 5 CTF maps, then 1 Team FFA map (to ease the transition from CTF to FFA). What happens is the FFA players suddenly find themselves in the first of 5 consecutive CTF maps. Most of them stick around and play their first-ever CTF games (I can tell they've never played before because a lot of them ask "I have the flag, what do I do with it?" "Where do I take this flag?" "I took the flag to our base, where do I plant it?"). Of course, as we all know, CTF is a lot of fun at any level of expertise, so a lot (not all) of former deathmatch\FFA only players discover a new love. Some of them will become the TWL CTF players of the future.

That being said, I was planning on making one of the servers all-CTF after the browser patch comes out. It would be easy enough for me to have a rotation alternating 5 full-weapon CTF maps with 5 saber-only CTF maps. The other server would remain FFA-CTF-TFFA to introduce (seduce?) new players to CTF. The CTF server would let the beginning and intermediate CTF players gain experience in a less-competitve environment than TWL, and introduce the full-weapon CTF players to the subtleties of saber-only CTF. We'll see how it goes. Just consider Chop Shop to be part of the "farm" leagues for the "big leagues" of TWL.

Look at it like this; let's drop the CTF aspect for a second and just look at the state of competitive gaming in Academy compared to Outcast.

(This is not directed at you, itís just a general statement.)

Full Force saber only was THE single most popular game type(s) across the globe in European and American leagues and ladders since the day Jedi Outcast was released until the very day Jedi Academy came out.

No other game type, No Force dueling, Full weapon CTF, etc. was ever able to compete with the sheer size and activity of the Full Force saber only community.

Long after many Full weapon CTF leagues bit the dust, long after many of the NF duel elites hung it up, the FF/SO players were going strong as ever.

Even as recent as a month or so before Academy was released, there was a large corporate sponsored tournament involving almost every competitive FF/SO CTF clan in Jedi Outcast.


Keep in mind this was just a few months ago, back when this game had been "dead" for over 1/2 a year.

This company tried to get this tourney going with members of the full weapon CTF communit first, but they could not even find two full teams who still played the game.


And let's take a look at THE single most popular competitive game type ever in Jedi Outcast.

Full Force dueling.

No other ladder or league ever even came close to the sheer size and activity that competitive Full Force dueling had.

Going all the way back to the days of 1.02 and a guy named Artifex, this game type is where people looked when they wanted to know "who's the best?"


Now?


Not a single veteran FF/SO duel player is playing Jedi Academy on these leagues (other than rumor and his clan).

Say what you want about the overall community, but as far as the competitive community goes, the FF/SO players (duel, CTF) made up about 70% of the global competitive community in Outcast, and with not a single returning veteran, the life span of the JA competitive community is not looking good.


TWL has already made a last ditch plea to players to get more active or else the plug may be pulled.

Now keep in mind, this is only a *single month after the game was launched...

Competitive gaming in Academy, sadly, is going to die a very pre mature death. Many of the Full Weapon CTF veterans have decided to leave already and the competitive NF duel scene is no where nearly as active as it was in Outcast.

Now this brings us back to the same situation we all faced in Outcast, problem is, when about 70% of the competitive community from Outcast has chosen not to play Academy, good luck finding people to keep these leagues and ladders open.

Siege sure as hell is not going to be the solution, they can't even get more than 7 clans signed up for the ladder, and itís not even unlocked yet due to the lack of participation.

And the sad thing is, we WANT to play FF/SO competitively.

And the ironic thing is, our % of overall ratio of the competitive community would be even greater this time because many clans who did not compete on ladders in Outcast are willing to sign up this time around.

But we simply can not play FF/SO on a competitive level in it's current incarnation.

There have been too many changes and nerfs that basically have made games become total stale mates, not just in CTF but in duels as well.

And while I know many of you like to offer up the "use g_saberDamageScale 2" tip, there are far more problems than just saber damage.

We could take the scale all the way up to 57, but many people fail to grasp one thing:

The one thing we will never sacrifice or make compromises on is precision.

Jacking up the saber damage to insanely high levels and making the game a match of "bump and kill" defeats the very purpose of skilled competitive gaming.

Hell, why not just enable rocket launchers in NF duels if people are having issues with a stance being much weaker than others.


Competitive gaming at itís core is not just about the win, itís about developing your level of skill to a point where you have no equal.

And while we do play to win at all costs, we also *practice and play to prove to people that there is simply no better player/clan out there.


Reducing it to a game of ďflail randomly + touch players = kill every thingĒ is exactly what jacked saber scales do.

boinga1
10-26-2003, 09:50 PM
Umm...just because many people from JO don't play JA DOESN'T mean that there are no people, totally new to the Dark Forces Saga, who are playing.

Believe all you want, but JA is not going to die anytime soon. The features (dual sabers, saber staffs, and yes, L33T S4B3R M0V3S) are everything a Star Wars Geek could probably ever want.

g//plaZma
10-26-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by boinga1
Umm...just because many people from JO don't play JA DOESN'T mean that there are no people, totally new to the Dark Forces Saga, who are playing.

Believe all you want, but JA is not going to die anytime soon. The features (dual sabers, saber staffs, and yes, L33T S4B3R M0V3S) are everything a Star Wars Geek could probably ever want.

A StarWars geek but not a gamer. I myself wasn't very much into StarWars (liked the movies but nothing more) and I still played JO because it was fun and I've been following the series since DF. If watching the pretty saber moves is the only thing that attracts people, there won't be much people playing because of the greatness of the game, but for the sabers and their StarWars "experience." Hell, it should have been called a Saber Sim instead of a First Person Shooter if that's all that's keeping people playing. And if that's all that's keeping people playing, there won't be much more competition in JA, hence the death of it.

GreenSmoke
10-26-2003, 11:07 PM
that made no cents

cheeto101
10-27-2003, 12:08 AM
yeah, well once again, this all stems back to who raven designed the game for..............The majority of people who buy their games. Who just happen to be casual gamers. I mean, do you see hundreds of thousands of people in competative leagues??? Nope. Maybe a thousand. That means that the other 90+% of people are playin casually.

Hennnceeeee, they designed a game thats easy to pick up, and gives everyone a chance to win right from the get go. Granted this ruins trult competative gaming, but it keeps the casual people happy for a year or so, which is when raven/lucasarts makes all its money on the game.

Fact is, that after this time frame, it dont matter too much to raven or lucas whether this game is still alive cause theyve made all their money. And if you think casual gamers are gonna bail cause competative leagues are gone, your nuts.

So really, unless raven changes their ctf system in a patch, your gonna have to use mods and cvars to make JA a good enviornment for competative ctf.

FK | unnamed
10-27-2003, 01:50 AM
I would be happy to use mods to get our level of high skilled game play back on track, to be honest, I have no use for "public servers" other than "laming rampages" I do every now and then.

problem is, we need the mp SDK for mod making....

.:Silver:.
10-27-2003, 02:32 AM
When I first entered the Chops Shops, I too thought it would be a noob fest of mindless swinging. This is true, if you're not very good. Strategy for veteran gamers is still utilized in a high damage scale atmosphere. You just have to adjust your strategy to the fact that the other guy is a legitimate threat. I left the ladders of twl on JO because most of the teams just weren't that good. Now, I am challenged to become a better player. After one map rotation of ctf on a high damage server, I've never lost a match when competing on a different "normal damage" server. So, you want to get good? Play in an arena where constant threat is always around the next corner.

noide
10-27-2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by .:Silver:.
I left the ladders of twl on JO because most of the teams just weren't that good.

whooo are you and what clan were u in. are u glince. i dont remember glince being in any twl teams..

oh and i played in chop shop today with a guy named silver and he didnt do much.

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-27-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed

Full Force saber only was THE single most popular game type(s) across the globe in European and American leagues and ladders since the day Jedi Outcast was released until the very day Jedi Academy came out.

No other game type, No Force dueling, Full weapon CTF, etc. was ever able to compete with the sheer size and activity of the Full Force saber only community.

Long after many Full weapon CTF leagues bit the dust, long after many of the NF duel elites hung it up, the FF/SO players were going strong as ever.

Even as recent as a month or so before Academy was released, there was a large corporate sponsored tournament involving almost every competitive FF/SO CTF clan in Jedi Outcast.

This company tried to get this tourney going with members of the full weapon CTF communit first, but they could not even find two full teams who still played the game.

Competitive gaming in Academy, sadly, is going to die a very pre mature death. Many of the Full Weapon CTF veterans have decided to leave already and the competitive NF duel scene is no where nearly as active as it was in Outcast.



So, it seems you are saying in JKII the full-weapon CTF activity died because the serious competitive CTF players greatly preferred FF/SO CTF. If FF/SO in JA is no longer as appealing, do you think the players who still like CTF with lightsabers and Force powers will switch over to FF/full-weapon CTF? It would still have the lightsabers and Force powers that other gun-only games lack. I'm just curious as someone who does not have the time\interest\dedication\talent to devote to that activity, but is interested nonetheless.

Comm539
10-27-2003, 08:09 AM
Sorry to break it to you, but JA/JK2 aren't the best gun games out there. Sabers are different...no other game has them. Thats why i want to play s/o. JA has the code for s/o ff games to work, just not the commands to turn them on. Why should we change if all we need is a command (or the sdk).
And what about ff duelling? Give everyone a couple of guns and that should sort it out eh?

Once again, you cant suggest a solution other than what we've asked for, so you think :"oh play another gamemode". I seriously think some people here are just plain retarded. If you have nothing relevant to say, **** off somewhere else. Good Fight.

FK | unnamed
10-27-2003, 08:16 AM
Nah Amidala from Chop Shop was just curious, she's cool, she just wanted to know if players would switch over.

To be honest though, I've seen maybe 4 vet ff/so players move into guns but all of them quit after two weeks it seems.




I'm not sure why ff/so was more popular than full weapon games on leagues, but I assume the main reason was guns were better than sabers when full weapons were enabled so most people who played only to win, used guns as their primary weapon in JO 1.04 when playing in full weapon servers/matches.

The thing is, the guns in JK2/JA are really poor when compared to other games like quake 3, so for the serious gunner, jk2 could not compete with games like quake 3/ut 2003.

ff/so was (for most of us who played a lot of first person shooters) a nice diversion (the different game type being not focused on point and click shooting) but it also was able to be played at a serious competitive level due to how complex it was.

Amidala from Chop Shop
10-27-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Comm539
Sorry to break it to you, but JA/JK2 aren't the best gun games out there. Sabers are different...no other game has them. Thats why i want to play s/o. JA has the code for s/o ff games to work, just not the commands to turn them on. Why should we change if all we need is a command (or the sdk).
And what about ff duelling? Give everyone a couple of guns and that should sort it out eh?

Once again, you cant suggest a solution other than what we've asked for, so you think :"oh play another gamemode". I seriously think some people here are just plain retarded. If you have nothing relevant to say, **** off somewhere else. Good Fight.

Um, as you can see from my use of the quote, my question was directed at FK | unnamed. I was wondering about what he thought the future direction of the game was going to be in regards to CTF. I wasn't trying to offer solutions. What you are asking for may never happen. I am interested in FK | unnamed's opinions, not yours.

FK | unnamed
10-27-2003, 08:30 AM
To be honest, I would rather play quake 3 or ut2003 if I want to gun, but I really do think guns are more fun in JA than JO.

The main thing I hated about JO gunning was the maps.

The small hallways, tight corners, low roofs, it just made for crappy gunning when you considered that the most effective weapons in the game were all alt-fire splash/lob shots.


The first thing I said when I played the JA CTF maps was "these feel like quake 3 maps" and sure enough, the people who made the maps for JA were none other than the three wave team who made the immensely popular three wave CTF mod for quake 3.

I really like the flow full weapon gun CTF has on maps like that yavin hill top and the coruscant streets maps, especially if you get in a 5v5 or 6v6 match.

But even though I do think the pace of game is much better now, it's still not enough to pull me away from other FPS games that do the gunning thing much better.

.:Silver:.
10-27-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by noide
oh and i played in chop shop today with a guy named silver and he didnt do much.

I was there. Out of a rotation of 10 ctf maps (after ffa), my team won 9 games. Either you just showed up as I left or someone was using a similar name when I wasn't around.

cheeto101
10-27-2003, 03:49 PM
hmm although sabers are the main draw of the JK series, guns did play a signifigant role in star wars and i mean, who doesnt wanna pull a jango fett (or boba) and go all commando with the blasters. So IMHO i think that yeah, guns should play an intrecate roll in any non saber only game. I mean, we want as many people to play JA as possible, so why not have cool guns as well as cool sabers? 2 good options are better then one. Non-saber only game modes really get the shaft in my opinion. I have fun with them alot.

MasterSidious
10-28-2003, 01:11 AM
Everyone here has prolly played instagib one time or other right. I propose this:

instead of instagib (one hit kill guns only with unlimited ammo), lets make a concusion rifle with regular dmg and unlimited ammo, I don't have the game yet but this is a really cool mod idea, anyoen fell what I'm saying?

noide
10-28-2003, 01:18 AM
i find gunning in JA to be slow and boring. if i wanted to gun i would just play Q3, which i do. (which is 1000x better in the gunning aspect than JA/JO could ever be). in my opinion JO was good for gunning with the fast speeds and momentum you could build. but i find JA to be slow paced in guns and s/o where as you could go literally super speeds in q3 while strafe jumping and just blow past full maps while gunning down noobs with the rocket launcher. even with rage/speed it doesnt feel to be the same.
just my opinion

MasterSidious
10-28-2003, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by noide
i find gunning in JA to be slow and boring. if i wanted to gun i would just play Q3, which i do. (which is 1000x better in the gunning aspect than JA/JO could ever be). in my opinion JO was good for gunning with the fast speeds and momentum you could build. but i find JA to be slow paced in guns and s/o where as you could go literally super speeds in q3 while strafe jumping and just blow past full maps while gunning down noobs with the rocket launcher. even with rage/speed it doesnt feel to be the same.
just my opinion

Need i say more to this than hell no, and I'll elave it at that unless you bitch in which case you're asking for serious bitching, no offense but have U ever really used speed and rage with guns before (holy **..)! rofflmao IT OWNS, BEST GAME PLAY for guns I rate it atleast 8/10!

SpecialForces
10-28-2003, 02:42 AM
I love chop shop to death, lol
I play on the instagib and ctf/ffa/cty/hc/jm/ server
Chop shop has the best servers I have ever played on.
HArdly or no rules are great (not that i lame).

Yes i agree with FK fallen quake3 would be better if you like guns but i think ja/jo can deffinently have as good or even better gameplay. oh yea i hate quake 3 it gets old SOO fast. forcepowers and sabers OWN. and so do the guns

PS: why is it so hard to get the FK to email me back so I can try to join there clan!?!?!?! lol oh well im not good enoughf anymore anyway....
Amidala you should make a chop shop clan...... nah not enoughf time

Rumor
10-28-2003, 03:43 AM
dont worry about the returned emails. you wont get in.

i know this because i know everything.

and the little fact that fk and shockwave merged and they said no more recruiting...and the fact i've never heard of yo uand you EMAILED to get into the clan you aren't the caliber to get in. hell i'm not the caliber to get in.

noide
10-28-2003, 04:07 AM
q3 is a fast paced huge momentum based game. ja is a slow ass game compared to q3. play a scrim in q3 then go to ja and its like slow mo

Kurgan
10-28-2003, 07:10 PM
Bah, I disagree with all of you who say JK2/JA guns sucks.

I don't care if you prefer Q3 or UT, I played them a lot and enjoyed them (UT moreso than Q3), but I enjoy the Force powers in JK2/JA much better (UT's DM_Morpheus being one exception).

Force Speed and Rage make JA pretty fast paced (of course nothing beats MotS and JK1 for speed... those were the fastest FPS games ever). Too slow? Up your game speed then. ; )

They give you a "sixth sense" and added complexity.. you really feel like you're playing in a 3d world, not just running around on a flat plane with the occasional rocket jump or super slow pad bounce.

Feel free to disagree, but IMNSHO Full Force+Guns is just as "unique" and fun as Full Force+Saber. Each to his own...

SpecialForces
10-28-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
dont worry about the returned emails. you wont get in.

i know this because i know everything.

and the little fact that fk and shockwave merged and they said no more recruiting...and the fact i've never heard of yo uand you EMAILED to get into the clan you aren't the caliber to get in. hell i'm not the caliber to get in.
Yea I tried to get in at least 6 months ago :)
then i moved on to chop shop

FK | unnamed
10-28-2003, 08:05 PM
err...

Just one thing, fallen and myself are two different people in case their was some confusion.

As for getting in, we are invite only but there have been try outs done in the past.

atm we do not play JA at all (almost every competitive jk2 ff/so clan has left as well) but once the sdk is released that will change.

I plan on doing the 1v1 ladder thing again as do a few other members of our clan.

As for CTF and Teamffa... hard to say, many of our CTF players are die hard Unreal Tournament fans and being that the game is just about to be released, they may not even bother with JA CTF even if a mod does make the game playable on competitive levels.


Chances are it's going to be a case of "too little too late" because I simply do not see the MP SDK being released anytime soon and by the time it is, the majority of us will simply have grown tired of waiting around.

lllKyNeSlll
10-28-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Bah, I disagree with all of you who say JK2/JA guns sucks.

I don't care if you prefer Q3 or UT, I played them a lot and enjoyed them (UT moreso than Q3), but I enjoy the Force powers in JK2/JA much better (UT's DM_Morpheus being one exception).

Force Speed and Rage make JA pretty fast paced (of course nothing beats MotS and JK1 for speed... those were the fastest FPS games ever). Too slow? Up your game speed then. ; )

They give you a "sixth sense" and added complexity.. you really feel like you're playing in a 3d world, not just running around on a flat plane with the occasional rocket jump or super slow pad bounce.

Feel free to disagree, but IMNSHO Full Force+Guns is just as "unique" and fun as Full Force+Saber. Each to his own...

Very true, jk1 was by far the fastest game of all time, with jerk strafe running and force speed. Jk3 gunning is better than jk2 but i say jk1 was better. jk2 and 3 guns just simply don't damage enough. The rockets also are slow moving projectiles. Also, most of the maps just simply were not designed well for gunning in jk3. jk2 had some pretty good maps. Conc needs to do more damage, be more widely available (as in like more maps). As of now, it does way too little damage for the amount of ammo it consumes. And the lack of hit boxes is also bad. I like the movement in jk3 better than jk2, u move much faster, and strafe jumping u can go much faster. If only concussion rifle only took 8 ammo, or did something like 50 damage for direct and 40 for splash (slightly more than repeater). The ctf maps could have more ammo. In general jk3 gunning is still better than jk2 just because of the movements and the new run up wall thing for ctf. Also, even though ammo and armor placement is weaker, I like the look of the maps better. Jk2 with force speed alone is about the speed of q3 (this is witout strafe jumping). jk3 with speed is and a proper strafe jump can get pretty fast. The main problem is lack of ammo, bacta, armor, and the 100 limit armor thing.

Kurgan
10-28-2003, 11:24 PM
You know you can play all the JK2 CTF maps in JA (though the elevators need fixing... the guy who ported them and released them on pcgamemods.com didn't have the proper mapping tools at the time).

And they also prove that Bacta, Stationary Shields, Sentries, etc even Ysalamari are all still in the game. You just put them in your map and they're usable again.

So make your CTF map how you want it, make it optimized for S/O CTF, put in all the stuff you want. Put in a Mutant Rancor and swoops if you want. Whatever...

Heck, you could even just edit the maps that came with JA to change the item placement to your liking. But I'd suggest new maps altogether...

Comm539
10-29-2003, 09:33 AM
ut2k4 will own :) Hopefully it won't be dumbed down to accommodate noobs (people asked for no strafing):)

And they also prove that Bacta, Stationary Shields, Sentries, etc even Ysalamari are all still in the game.

And you still think JA isnt JK2 code copied over. Lol.

Prime
10-29-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
And you still think JA isnt JK2 code copied over. Lol. Does it matter one way or the other?

Comm539
10-30-2003, 02:26 PM
Well ya. Its a new SP, with a few new moves, maps and styles thrown in (most of which were preliminarily coded for jk2). Sounds like an expansion to me.

Anyway, this is the basis of my arguement.
They add a kata/butterfly/roll stab etc. Most of the professional community says they're almost useless moves for the fanboys. But thats fine. They realise there are other audiences that need to be accommodated. They don't start crying about kata's being one kill moves and how they should be removed.

What I dont understand is why features have been removed. Why dont you people want to add extra dimensions of strategy and make the game more diverse? This is why I believe your noobs. You're happy that the sequel has removed features simply because you couldn't cope (counter) them the first time of trying.

Let me ask you, if someone dfa's you, do you just stand there are let them hit? Wtf do you stand there and let someone kick you then. Besides my belief that some of you are plain kin' stupid, its not a hard concept.
Fine some features have been added. Great. But basically, you're happy that many levels of intricity have been removed. Ask yourself why you're happy the games been dumbed down. Don't reply with the bullsh*t of 'unavoidable' attacks, because none were. Some were tricky to avoid, admittedly new players couldn't do everything right away, but it could be done. This is where a competetive community thrives. This is not JA atm.

As Kurgan pointed out, some of the code is clearly copied. Why not reinsert the levels of intricity with the option to turn them on or off?

Vanor
10-30-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
But basically, you're happy that many levels of intricity have been removed. Ask yourself why you're happy the games been dumbed down.

Maybe because they don't want to play a game that requires the amount of time some people put into it, to enjoy playing it online.

I mean if the only way you can hop into a server and stand a decent chance at ending up somewhere in the middle, is by spending hours a day training, that might not be something most people want.

What the competive players seem to forget, is they are a very small minnority of the total player base. Most of them, yourself included seem to imply that the only opinions that should count, are the ones of comptitive players.

Something that makes the most people happy, is the best bussiness decision to make.

However options are always a good thing. So leaving the ablity to do some things in the game, that could be turned on or off, would of been a better choice all around.

Akshara
10-30-2003, 08:01 PM
Comm539...

You make an excellent point in that post. It's also the most thoughtful and clear I've heard you be to date. Your opinions are a lot easier to accept and understand when they are expressed without all the condescending insults. Sorry... just being honest.

Maybe because they don't want to play a game that requires the amount of time some people put into it, to enjoy playing it online.

I mean if the only way you can hop into a server and stand a decent chance at ending up somewhere in the middle, is by spending hours a day training, that might not be something most people want.
Vanor... I agree with this wholeheartedly. And it really gets to the heart of the matter. I'm of the firm belief that this is what LucasArts wants Jedi Academy to be - a game that anybody can play and enjoy, without having to be a pro or clan member who practices two or more times a week to simply have a chance.

We're at an interesting time now, where there are a lot of fathers and sons from both Star Wars generations; and this game is a marvelous opportunity for them to engage in something together that's both fun and cool. And though I understand and appreciate the JO community, it is not very welcoming toward those who do not practice the game often and play regularly.

JA as it stands offers a little bit for everybody... it's not pure noobishness, nor is it striclty competitive and skill based. Yet both approaches are accomodated to a certain degree... and that is an amazing achievement.

However, I can completely understand and agree with Comm539's request for a togglable feature which allows for a more competitive gameplay approach if the leagues want it. It would be really great of LucasArts to develop a "specialized" aspect of the game for those wanting a little more substance to it.

In general, there's nothing wrong with league play or having elite players. But there's a tendency in most games of this nature for those players to "take over" the servers and make it a lot less fun for everybody else. Now I'm not talking about not being able to avoid the DFA, or simply being an idiot online... I mean going into a server for an hour or two once or twice a week and having fun, without it being extremely difficult to just make a fair score.

Some people like this to be a challenge, like team sports; but others see this has a fun stress reliever... they shouldn't be more stressed after playing than they were when they started. That's what happened for me with JO toward the end there - it wasn't that I couldn't compete, it was that it wasn't much fun doing so. More often than not I would log off with either a headache, or be so mad that I wanted to kick something. Which is why my copy ended up on the shelf at Electronics Boutique.

It's my sincere hope that whatever changes are made to JA if any do not change it's level of fun and enjoyment online for those who cannot put the time in to be one of the "elite."

What I think would be a smart move is to release an expansion pack to JO which brings some of the advances made in JA to it, yet keeps it within the current 1.04 arena and maintains it's edginess. I know many see JA as supposed to be that... but it's not. And that's the problem. JA is a seperate game targeted toward a little younger and less edgy audience than JO was... and it's obvious.

I mean nobody has officially said that JA is an actual sequel to JO; nor have they said that JO is on the way out. On the contrary, it appears to me that the JO community is as strong as ever.

boinga1
10-30-2003, 08:23 PM
The fact is that certain moves were "dumbed down"/removed because they were VERY easy to spam OR were actually more powerful than intended. I mean, take kick ofr example. In JO, you could run around with saber off, no weapon out, and OWN a s/o server. That's not realistic. If I hold a deadly weapon in front of you, and you come and try to kick me...you're going to die. In real life. In JO, the guy with the weapon would die and the guy hwho kicked could go on. Raven actually added a MORE REALISTIC kick into JA.

(Anyways, JA is certainly full of many "noobs". All that really means is easy kills, to my way of thinking.)

The only thing that seems to have been "removed" is kick. What other "levels of intricity" have been removed?

Prime
10-30-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
Well ya. Its a new SP, with a few new moves, maps and styles thrown in (most of which were preliminarily coded for jk2). Sounds like an expansion to me. I don't think it is, but we are basing what we consider a new game and expansions on different things. Yes it is very similar (SP at least) to JO. But I think that is okay, because I really liked JO. Whether it uses the same code or not or is an expansion or not doesn't matter to me at all. If it matters to you, I can't help that. :)

Originally posted by Comm539
Anyway, this is the basis of my arguement.
They add a kata/butterfly/roll stab etc. Most of the professional community says they're almost useless moves for the fanboys. But thats fine. They realise there are other audiences that need to be accommodated. They don't start crying about kata's being one kill moves and how they should be removed. Nor am I.

Originally posted by Comm539
What I dont understand is why features have been removed. Why dont you people want to add extra dimensions of strategy and make the game more diverse? Why are you assigning all these opinions to me that I haven't stated here? I never said I don't want extra dimensions of strategy. That would be just fine with me. I'd be happy with that too.

Originally posted by Comm539
This is why I believe your noobs. You're happy that the sequel has removed features simply because you couldn't cope (counter) them the first time of trying. Incorrect, for me at least. Since you have never seen me play, I don't know how you can say what I can and can't counter. The fact is that the vast majority of moves in JO I could counter. Regardless, that is not the reason why I am happy. I am happy with MP because I like just going on a server and playing around with other people. I play JA, and I have fun for the amount of time I am playing. I would also have fun with a game that had a high learning curve and complex strategies. I don't care either way. My view is that the game is what it is, and I have fun with it. I don't demand that it be super-competative friendly, and I don't demand that it be super easy. I don't try to shoehorn the game into something it isn't. I am happy with whatever form the game takes, as long as it is playable for me. If that form changes with a patch, I am fine with that as well. The game will be fun for me regardless.

Originally posted by Comm539
Let me ask you, if someone dfa's you, do you just stand there are let them hit? Wtf do you stand there and let someone kick you then. Besides my belief that some of you are plain kin' stupid, its not a hard concept. No. Of course not. Why do you think that this is what I do? Whether you think I am "plain kin' stupid" or not I can't control, but I can tell you that I don't just stand there and get kicked or DFAed. Can you tone down the insults though? How have I personally screwed you out of having fun?

For the kick thing, for the record I am perfectly happy to have them as a cvar, though I would like it to have a more kick-like animation. Other than that, I'll adapt to whatever form it comes in, if it comes at all.

Originally posted by Comm539
Fine some features have been added. Great. But basically, you're happy that many levels of intricity have been removed. I am happy with the game whether it has intricities or not. If they are there, great. If they aren't great. I just play the game by whatever rules and strageties are there. I was successful in JO, an I seem to be in JA. The strategies were different in all the JO patches and JA, and I adapted.

Believe me, I don't sit around thinking, "Yes! We've finally screwed competative players!" If competative players are happy with JA, super. If they aren't, I'm sorry to hear that, but it won't affect my enjoyment of the game.

Originally posted by Comm539
Ask yourself why you're happy the games been dumbed down. Don't reply with the bullsh*t of 'unavoidable' attacks, because none were. Some were tricky to avoid, admittedly new players couldn't do everything right away, but it could be done. This is where a competetive community thrives. This is not JA atm. I am not happy because the game has been dumbed down. I am happy because I have fun when I go online and play. If the game took longer to get good at, I'd be happy with that to, and I'd spend the time getting to the point where I could be effective.

And I don't believe that there are unavoidable attacks. From what I saw in JO, everything had a counter. I had a blast with JO as well.

Originally posted by Comm539
As Kurgan pointed out, some of the code is clearly copied. Why not reinsert the levels of intricity with the option to turn them on or off? Fine with me. I will adapt either way. My only concern is that if they are put back in part and parcel that there might be some new imbalances because of the differences in JA. As long as those issues are addressed, excellent.

I'm not sure why you are so upset at me for liking the game. I have not tried to screw you or anyone else out of anything, and frankly I don't see how I could if I wanted to. I'm sorry I am not a diehard competative player than demands the game be difficult. I'm just not that person. But I don't believe that I am completely devoid of any skill either. :)

Vanor
10-30-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
It's my sincere hope that whatever changes are made to JA if any do not change it's level of fun and enjoyment online for those who cannot put the time in to be one of the "elite."

I have come to the conculsion that many of the "compitive" players, feel that unless you can dedicate as much time to the game as they do, you have no right to enjoy it.

Again I'm all for more options, that makes the game enjoyable to the largest number of people.

But dispite what he says, I get the feeling that Comm539's real point is, that unless you can dedicate as much time to something as a compitive player, then you are a noob who doesn't have a valid opinion.

This is why I believe your noobs. You're happy that the sequel has removed features simply because you couldn't cope (counter) them the first time of trying.
That doesn't imply anything it comes right out says it. That unless you are of his skill level, your opinion doesn't count for anything.

I think having a compitive comunity is a good thing, but one is hardly needed for a game to surive or even thrive. I've played a ton of online games, many with out such a thing, and they all surived and thrived for some time.

As the first generation of computer gamers, such as people my age grow up and have less and less time for games. Game companies will realize this and make games that are "dumbed down" to acomadate the growing market.

Because to Lucas Arts, the compitivie comunity means nothing, what matters is how many copies they sell. As by defention the compitive players are a minorty, where it matters most, the bottom line, they're opinions cary much less weight then the larger audence of casual players.

eniaC
10-30-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I am not happy because the game has been dumbed down. I am happy because I have fun when I go online and play. If the game took longer to get good at, I'd be happy with that to, and I'd spend the time getting to the point where I could be effective.

And I don't believe that there are unavoidable attacks. From what I saw in JO, everything had a counter. I had a blast with JO as well.

I'm not sure why you are so upset at me for liking the game. I have not tried to screw you or anyone else out of anything, and frankly I don't see how I could if I wanted to. I'm sorry I am not a diehard competative player than demands the game be difficult. I'm just not that person. But I don't believe that I am completely devoid of any skill either. :)

*****
:thmbup1: :thmbup1: :thmbup1: :thmbup1: :thmbup1: :cheers:

Comm539
10-30-2003, 09:45 PM
You enjoy the game. Great. I enjoy playing competetive games. Toggleable features means we can both play the ways we like.

And for the last time, it has nothing to do with skill. Anyone who doesnt want features such as pt, ptk, k, gk, groundkill, rage dfa, rolling etc etc. doesn't want more levels of intrincity added to the game.
I can't be any clearer.
For whatever reasons, basically you dont want them in the game, therefore dont want extra levels of strategy. On the most part its because people aren't good enough to deal with things, normally because they dont want to practice stuff. Fine. But falicies such as:

In JO, you could run around with saber off, no weapon out, and OWN a s/o server.

Are just plain stupid.
I'm sorry, but if someone kick whoring can 'own a server' then i'm afraid he's just a better player (or your a worse player). Kicking is an extra level of strategy. You have to learn when, where and how to do it and learn to counter it. On NO occasion would a kick spammer simply 'own' anyone.
My point is simply that players are happy features are removed because they couldn't cope/deal with them. What about dfa? People who spammed them could own a server?...No. You learn to dodge them and not let them hit you. Same thing with kicks, just that they'd take more practice to dodge. They're just an extra dimension to gameplay.

I accept that not everyone wants to play competetively and practice stuff. But there are those who do.
As for being a minority, personally I think its about equal, but it matters not. Why can't you agree that having a patch to toggle features on and off will make everyone happy?
Aswell as being toggled on and off, you said we're a 'minority', therefore it couldn't possibly interfer with however you want to play the game. You get to keep the 'fun' JA and the competetive community can play a game with a wider range of features.

Comm539
10-30-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Vanor
Because to Lucas Arts, the compitivie comunity means nothing, what matters is how many copies they sell. As by defention the compitive players are a minorty, where it matters most, the bottom line, they're opinions cary much less weight then the larger audence of casual players.

I know and like most things these days, people are just out to earn a few extra dollars. But you'll never get anything if you don't try. (ie. toggleable features).

eniaC
10-30-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Comm539
You enjoy the game. Great. I enjoy playing competetive games. Toggleable features means we can both play the ways we like.

Why can't you agree that having a patch to toggle features on and off will make everyone happy?

You get to keep the 'fun' JA and the competetive community can play a game with a wider range of features.

sorry... I do agree and would something I would greatly support.
:)



Originally posted by Comm539
And for the last time, it has nothing to do with skill. Anyone who doesnt want features such as pt, ptk, k, gk, groundkill, rage dfa, rolling etc etc. doesn't want more levels of intrincity added to the game.

I also agree w/ this, I enjoy more intrincity in any game along w/ more features. (I personally think red dfa should be as hard to time as in JO).

Excelleny and very valid points.


:r2d23:eniaC

Prime
10-31-2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Comm539
And for the last time, it has nothing to do with skill. Anyone who doesnt want features such as pt, ptk, k, gk, groundkill, rage dfa, rolling etc etc. doesn't want more levels of intrincity added to the game. Actually, many people don't want those things because they deviate fairly radically (especially things like pull-throw, grip-kick, and so on) from the way the game was originally intended to be played. Ultimately, a lot of people don't like these things because they are "un-Star Wars", and "take away" from the more traditional (for lack of a better term) lightsaber fighting.

I happen to agree with that to some extent, and I want the game to remind me of the movies I love. But I realize that this is a game, and thus there are different priorities, and that many players just want a game, Star Wars-like or not. I want a game that is fun, first and formost. I don't see why pull-kick, etc. are the only way to add complexity to the game. Surely there are ways to add complexity that also appeals to Star Wars fans.

But having options is fine as far as I'm concerned.

FK | unnamed
10-31-2003, 04:24 AM
in episode 2 obi-wan did 2 jump kicks on jango in their fight scene... and he only had a single saber.

:eek:



I think I must have missed the scene with all of the Kata's though.

;)

Doctor Shaft
10-31-2003, 04:32 AM
The core problem with the Dark Forces games is the fact that no one in this community has the same visions of "star wars fighting".

No one would accept a game just chock full of Quake 3/UT guns... heck, people didn't accept UT2003 because it had UT guns in it, well not everyone at least.

The competitive players don't want to play guns because it's not fast like Quake... and in the end, we'd probably feel betrayed or something if they were.

The casual gamer just wants to have a good time.

The competitive player wants a game of precision.

Then we get into arguments over what constitutes precision, blah blah blah.

this game just has too many elements for the community to ever solidify on. Raven may have failed in the eyes of many, but as I think about it more and more.... what could Raven have done for us, really? Please don't answer with "Bug Fixes!!"... that's an obvious, easy answer. But besides that, what could they have really done. We have so many small camps of people who advocate different kinds of gaming via Dark Forces, it's ridiculous.

Ever since "The Split", or when the ominous 1.03 patch came out, everyone finally revealed their true colors about what the game should be about, and no one could agree on anything. To this day, everything stands as is. No one agrees, cvars abound, no one plays the same game. Too bad I guess.

On the other hand, I've given up trying to argue one way or the other. This community definitely doesn't have ONE direction.

The competitive players wanted to maintain the status quo. they enjoy the game of precision. Of course, their idea of precision is being able to use a whole slew of techniques at precise, yet incredibly rapid speeds and times. Grip/Kick, Pull throw, drain... all of it combination to kill. The n00b who cannot, or does not want to, play a game of mouse/keyboard coordination plus timing game, will never win in this world.

then there are other gamers who appreciate the super high damage, bump and die style gaming. I confess, I'm all for this type of play. Of course, it gets argued over and over again by the "true pros" the bump and grind is the evil of all gaming and should be left to die. On the other hand, I am of the proponent that enjoys a game where even the smallest of creatures can prove deadly, even by accident. To me, it resembles a healthier slice of life... it's true in reality that even the weakest, if given the right tools, can be dangerous. It's a different kind of stradegy, one that doesn't appreciate mistakes or error. True, it may not be the "precision" that everyone enjoys, but the precision is there. Instead of having to master insane combos... you must become the master of simply predicting the moves of your opponents... even the most insignificant ones. That's assuming, of course, that you're playing people that actually pay attention to what their doing, rather than just holding down fire key. But even then, you have to figure out how to consistenly take out even the wild and crazies. It's different, but certainly not skilless.

In the end, there is probably no point in continuing the discussion. We're clear on what everyone wants. I want Promod, tourney players want 1.04 JA style, and others want some other crazy stuff with wiffle bats. I hate wiffle bats, I prefer near insta to instagib play.

Hopefully the SDK comes out soon. I'm certain that a simple "patch" will never satisfy anyone. We just can't along... unfortunately. What will come will come.

eniaC
10-31-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
The casual gamer just wants to have a good time.

The competitive player wants a game of precision.



I want both, the more challenging to me is always better or I lose interest to soon, yet I'm a huge Star Wars fan and love playing the game for fun.

eniaC

Prime
10-31-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
in episode 2 obi-wan did 2 jump kicks on jango in their fight scene... and he only had a single saber.

:eek:

I think I must have missed the scene with all of the Kata's though.

;) True. All I am saying is that the reason people don't like those things isn't necessarily that because they can't defend against them.

"Fanboys" want the most effective attacks to be from the lightsaber swings (disregarding guns for the moment). Rightly or wrongly, I think you'll agree that katas (quick saber strikes) are closer to what are seen in the movies than pull-throw and grip-kick. But again, that was not my original point.

But damn your air-tight logic! :D

Doctor Shaft
10-31-2003, 03:00 PM
I want the same kind of thing too EniaC, though probably not in the same particular flavor as others.

I have played another game called Starfleet Command II (oh no, it's our arch-enemy!! $t4r Tr3k!!!11oneoneone).

In this real time stradegy, well not really an "RTS", but anyway, in this game, matches between two skilled people can last up to 30 minutes. the average is more like 15 or 20, but if the odds go a little awry for you, matches can take a long time. I've had three on three matches that went on for well over an hour and a half, just managing ship power, maintaining speed, and keeping the right shield arcs in line.

However, while matches 'last forever', the fact of the matter is, if you start to bump and grind, or decide to just kind of rush in and hang around your opponent, your death will come to you in about 5 minutes. For this game, 5 minutes is pretty much instant death.

I like to play JO/JA the same way. I want skills and precision to be there, but I also want that feeling where once someone REALLY drops the ball, I don't need to fancy combo the crap out of em, it's just ended... done. It allows EVERYONE to play in a sense as well... as opposed to the ambidextrously, dedicated, gifted players. But who cares. I'll go to chop shop, everyone else will go to their selective place. All we can ask is for Raven to give everyone the means to go their separate ways. SDK, cvars for kick, and a bug fix. that is a lot to ask of course, but you know, they probably will only need ONE patch for that anyway.

Oh, and after looking at your avatar more carefully EniaC, and just looking at it saying "I know i've seen that somewhere"... yeah, rinoa's hand is hard to distinguish in such a small picture. Good game, not the best, but good.

Cheers.

Kurgan
10-31-2003, 04:36 PM
And you still think JA isnt JK2 code copied over. Lol.

Red herring. I never said JA was entirely new code with nothing from JK2.

What do you mean by "code copied over"? Are you saying there's no Quake3TA code in JA either? Obviously there is, nobody's disputing that.

Anyway, this is the basis of my arguement.
They add a kata/butterfly/roll stab etc. Most of the professional community says they're almost useless moves for the fanboys. But thats fine. They realise there are other audiences that need to be accommodated. They don't start crying about kata's being one kill moves and how they should be removed.

Why did they add Katas? I'll tell you why... because they wanted to appease the people who WHINED because their bug exploitable spinning moves (the spinning backstab/slash and the spinning DFA) were removed!

If you recall in JK2 before the patches you had "stuck in place spinning" high damage moves! Lol, so if anything the katas are a return to that type of gameplay, not a departure from it. If "only n00bs" use katas, then "only n00bs" used spinning backstab and spinning DFA. It's the same thing, only this time they gave you PROPER ways to do spinning moves!

Actually I've seen plenty of (self-proclaimed) experts from the "professional" community of JK2 whining and complaining about JA. They want things changed back to the way they were in JK2.

I'm not naming names here, and some are worse than others, but these guys have been the most vocale in attacking the new things in JA.

They have a similar attitude as you, they are calling JA an "expansion" of JK2 and treating it like a patch. Thus they are angry that features were "removed" and things "changed."

Just because it uses the same engine doesn't mean its an expansion. It's not been marketed as one, despite what you keep saying. It doesn't require the original game to run either.

Are you going to call Elite Force an expansion of Quake3? They use the same engine and the same code base! Whoa!

Or is Soldier of Fortune 2 an expansion of JK2? It uses the same code base, was even made by the same team! Oh no!

Through my sarcasm you can see where I'm going here...

JA is not JK2 1.05, so once you stop expecting it to be, perhaps you'll be less angry.

But instead you go off about how people who like the changes must be "n00bs" and the game must be "n00b friendly" (because obviously intelligent proffessional players must want the game to be just like JK2).

They removed Flip Kicks and that makes the game less complex? Oh boy they removed one move and added dozens more... so you think that all the katas, the two new saber types, and all the tweaks mean nothing because Flip Kicks are gone and that changes your playing style?

And if you whip out the Sabers Only CTF thing again, sorry man, if that was the most popular game type in JK2 that only the best people played, it's not in JA, you'll either have to change your playing style or go back to JK2 (or make a mod). Again, that's like crying that JK2 isn't the same as JK1. Sure a lot of us professional JK1 players were sad when JK2 made changes to the gameplay, but we sucked it up and learned the new game. I advise the same thing here. Or else you're just going to spend the next 3 years (or however long it takes to make the new JK game with the latest Unreal tech or Doom3 engine) whining and complaining how the game sucks and is dying because it didn't cater to your needs like JK2 did.

As Mike Gummelt himself pointed out, most PC game sequels use the same engine as their predecessors. Heck, look at the Unreal series... they've been using different builds of the same engine since almost the beginning!

The main exception is Id Software, who developes a new FPS engine every 2.34 years and liscenses it out to all the companies (for a handsome fee of course) who can't afford to make a new engine for every game from scratch.

Raven can't win. Half the people want a new engine and a totally new revolutionary game that's a quantum leap over JK2. The other half want everything the same (It sounds like you WANT an expansion that's just a skin and map pack with no changes in gameplay at all). Maybe if they had the manpower time and money they'd release two games to please everyone, but they couldn't and they didn't. Oh well...

eniaC
10-31-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Cheers.


Cheers.:cheers: Good Game.

:r2d23:eniaC



*edited*
Originally posted by Kurgan
Maybe if they had the manpower time and money they'd release two games to please everyone, but they couldn't and they didn't. Oh well... :thmbup1: :)

Kurgan
10-31-2003, 05:10 PM
Some people act like JA is just about saber dueling.

That's just as narrow minded as saying that JK2 is all about Sabers Only CTF.

Or if I said JA was all about Siege, it would be equally unfair.

We're talking about a subset of gameplay here, not the whole. Obviously there's more to the game than just one gametype or a variation on a gametype.

Obviously the developers put the time into creating a variety of gametypes and options, after they made the Single Player campaign (which took the bulk of their time and resources).

I bet you plenty of people bought the game, played through the SP campaign a few times and then put it down. Not everybody has a fast internet connection or is online gaming savy enough to be able to host a server or join games (despite the bugs).

For these "newbies" if it's not in a direct link to the MSN Gaming Zone or Gamespy Arcade they just don't play MP.

I too want MP to be the best it can be, but it's out of my hands, I'm just doing what I've done for rest of the games in the series, which is to take the good with the bad and learn what I can with what I'm given and ADAPT. If you don't agree, be my guest and make your mods that do it how you think it "ought to be" or go play JK2 or whatever game you think is so much better.

Comm539, you're being a total troll.

Do you honestly believe that insulting the majority of JA players will get you a patch that will turn JA into JK2 1.05?

So if we don't care about the loss of flip kicks and don't demand it be brought back, we must be n00bs who sucked at JK2?

Or we must be stupid, or we must be little kids.... oh wonderful.

And this will convince LA to let Raven make a patch that drastically changes gameplay back to the way it was in JK2, how?

Maybe I should just close this thread, it's clear your only intention is to continually insult people because they don't agree with you.

After all, this thread started with your erroneous claim that JA was "dying" because there were way more JK2 players than JA players and it was all because of "bugs" (which later turned out to be the tired well-worn 'Competative Play is Ruined Forever Because Flip Kicks are Gone' argument). And how many threads have we already had with this same argument from "angry competative JK2 players"? I'm sorry you're unhappy, but why beat a dead horse?

Raven has already gotten sent plenty of emails I'm sure from folks like you, and they're the people who have the power to make the changes, not us (though of course we all known that LA is holding the reins in the end).

Maybe you should go over to the RavenSoftware forums and see if your trolling convinces anymore people than it does here...