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mtropolis
10-27-2003, 02:52 PM
Why cant they just make a jedi game thats actually have realistic saber duels? Like in the movies? I realy love the Jedi Knight series, but i have never had the joy of playin a starwars game thats got good saber duels:( Cant anyone of you mod`s out there make a mod that is giving more life into the saber fights. In jedi knight2 and 3 the saberfights is chaos. and the more skilled enemies uses the force too mutch. To mutch lightning, push and pulls. The Jedi`s in the movies almost never uses those skills in a civilized saber duel... I cant imagine im the only 1 that want this... sorry for the bad english, not my strongest language.

Akshara
10-27-2003, 03:09 PM
What you want is to find a server with Saber Only (s/o) and No Force powers (nf), and possibly with the Saber Damage increased so a single hit is either a kill or dismemberment, just like in the movies. I can't give you specific places, since it is difficult to find ones that have all three combined all of the time - but they are out there. Maybe someone will be willing to post a list of Saber Only No Force servers with enhanced saber damage as well.

In the meantime... if you're only using the ingame browser, then you might appreciate visiting www.qtracker.com or www.udpsoft.com, the homes of two alternative server browsers: Qtracker and All Seeing Eye respectively. They will help you find more variation in your online experience, with ASE being the easiest to use out of the box.

IG-64
10-27-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
What you want is to find a server with Saber Only (s/o) and No Force powers (nf), and possibly with the Saber Damage increased so a single hit is either a kill or dismemberment, just like in the movies. I can't give you specific places, since it is difficult to find ones that have all three combined all of the time - but they are out there. Maybe someone will be willing to post a list of Saber Only No Force servers with enhanced saber damage as well.

In the meantime... if you're only using the ingame browser, then you might appreciate visiting www.qtracker.com or www.udpsoft.com, the homes of two alternative server browsers: Qtracker and All Seeing Eye respectively. They will help you find more variation in your online experience, with ASE being the easiest to use out of the box.

that doesn't help, i know what hes talking about, its like the sabers... don't connect... id want it to somehow be like a bunch of really fast saber locks or something so the sabers actually look like their fighting, also im not talking about MP, he may be though...

AJL
10-27-2003, 03:51 PM
In Jedi O/A saber combat propably the biggest problem is that
there isn't really ANY blocking... (usually if you just stand still
and let the opponent slash you... your own character doesn't
move a muscle... and in those rare cases when you do try to
block it doesn't make much difference because the attack will
most likely go right through your defence...)

So players must move a lot, ... keep distance to the opponent
and get closer only to make quick slash and then quickly pull
back again.. and usually those slashes hit nothing but air...

I quess it do work in some ways but it for sure doesn't have
anything to do with SW lightsaber combat or any fencing...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In SP things are a little bit better but not very good there
either...

+ Of cource in SW lightsaber combat those guys stop in to
some kind of "quick saber locks" every ~3 second... which
doesn't happen in the games at all...

IG-64
10-27-2003, 03:59 PM
in SP when your killing Stormtroopers, the saber very rarely goes through the stormtrooper, theres just a bunch of wild slashing then the stormtrooper falls, if you ask me, i think they should stop being so... erm... LAZY and drop the Q3 engine and make a similar, yet much better one, maybe one that somehow knows exacly where the saber is slicing and actually slices the model where the saber hits and adds better saber animations to calculate where and when the sabers connect, i know its possible, their just to lazy to do it :(

Quake 3 Engine

[EDIT] i made a new thread just for this comment...

Prime
10-27-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by ig64
if you ask me, i think they should stop being so... erm... LAZY and drop the Q3 engine and make a similar, yet much better one Believe me, as someone who makes a living in the software industry, laziness is the last thing involved in making these kinds of decisions.

Calling Raven lazy is simply ridiculous.

IG-64
10-27-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Believe me, as someone who makes a living in the software industry, laziness is the last thing involved in making these kinds of decisions.

Calling Raven lazy is simply ridiculous.

are you saying raven is poor?:D
[EDIT] let me put this another way: what is envolved in making these decisions? money? raven shouldn't be the poor. time? why rush it? take the time you need. as you can see, i just don't understand the software industry, or why they can't make better games...

Samuel Dravis
10-27-2003, 05:07 PM
Knights of the Old Republic is coming out for PC this year, and it has some pretty cool looking saber duels. Look at a few movies of it and you'll see what I mean.

Kurgan
10-27-2003, 06:19 PM
Depends on what you mean by "realistic."

And which movies? (Prequels or original trilogy?)

Seriously there is only so much you can do in an internet game to make melee battles cool looking fun AND balanced.

If you want more "realistic" melee battles, try Bushido Blade series on the PSX. ; )

WarteX
10-27-2003, 06:23 PM
So players must move a lot, ... keep distance to the opponent

I completely agree with you AJL.
Who the hell would fight like that in "real-life".
It looks stupid with 2 jedi circle-strafing around eachother trying to time an uber slow red stance slash. If your playing yellow vs yellow only, it looks abit better :).

To find players using yellow stance only is quite hard.

In an interview, Raven said that some of their employees were training martial arts. If that's true, Why the hell did they make the saber combat look so stupid. Lets not forget those uber slow red stance swings, just because you swing slower doesnt mean you're going to hit harder.

Even if I hate these flaws, I still like the game but it could have been so much better.

Samus
10-27-2003, 06:39 PM
I also think the saber battles look quite chaotic, but they're fun all the same. I'm really looking forward to KOTOR, though. Those saber battles look fantastic! (And the Xbox-version has been highly acclaimed.) Does anyone know when that will be in the stores for PC?

Samuel Dravis
10-27-2003, 07:12 PM
I think its mid-November...

Tsaya
10-27-2003, 07:29 PM
I do see your point mtropolis and would really love having such a game as well. But as much as we might want it, I don't think that it is possible. Not technically but rather physically:

Keep in mind what being a jedi is about: knowing the force, having a sense of things before they happen. The only reason why jedi fight the way they do is because they have a good guess where their opponents next strike may hit so they can parry it.
In the movies they simulate this by using a good and well trained choreography (the actors know indeed what the next move will be because they were told before the fight). In a game you can't simulate it. It would require you to do all the blocking and slashing yourself, determine the exact position of your saber at any given time.
Now despite the fact that this isn't technically possible yet (I'd sure love some kind of game controller that gives you this kind of control!) even if this was possible it wouldn't work: There is no choreography and you don't know where the enemy will hit next. So unless you are a real jedi (which I pretty much doubt :D ) you will have a hard time putting up a fight as the ones seen in the movies.

There is of course the possibility of having the computer do the moves for you as it is in KoTOR but that isn't the same - no real Action.

razorace
10-27-2003, 08:06 PM
The fact is that the current saber system wasn't designed to simulate the saber battles of the movies.

I'm going to be focused on fixing these issues (for the Open Jedi Project and Masters of the Force) once the SDK comes out. Give us time, we'll figure it out. :)

FK | unnamed
10-27-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by ig64
are you saying raven is poor?:D
[EDIT] let me put this another way: what is envolved in making these decisions? money? raven shouldn't be the poor. time? why rush it? take the time you need. as you can see, i just don't understand the software industry, or why they can't make better games...



You try to keep your overhead as low as possible by "cutting corners" and recycling what you can so as to lower your initial expenses.

In turn, your profit is a greater %.

Just because a game costs 49.99, don't think for a second that the 49.99 price is pure profit.

If anything, they get maybe 4.99 profit (if even that) out of each sale and the rest goes to compensate for the expenses (paying the development team, fees to Activision who spent money marketing and distributing the game, etc.).


Using an engine they have already purchased a license for as opposed to spending the time and money developing a new one is just a simple smart business decision.

Master William
10-27-2003, 09:17 PM
To make the sabers hit realistic, (the guy with the Jabba avatar is by the way completely is by the way 100% right) they could always make it so that saber locks last for a half second, so every time you hit a saber lock is triggered, but not just in the normal way, in all kinds of positions, and it should happen really fast so it looks like the sabers are hitting.

And by the way, the lightsaber is like air. I stood slashing at this guys lightsaber (not the hilt but the core) and it just went right through without any sparks.

MasterSidious
10-27-2003, 09:35 PM
Without any sparks? That's kinda unusual, or is it? I almost always get sparks :)

Bifford
10-27-2003, 10:01 PM
Is there a mod out there that increases saber and blaster damage, so that a single slash = death, as would a few shots from a blaster?

razorace
10-27-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Master William
To make the sabers hit realistic, (the guy with the Jabba avatar is by the way completely is by the way 100% right) they could always make it so that saber locks last for a half second, so every time you hit a saber lock is triggered, but not just in the normal way, in all kinds of positions, and it should happen really fast so it looks like the sabers are hitting.

I have an plan on how to impliment that concept.

Master William
10-27-2003, 10:49 PM
I know, it is in fact very easy. Just edit the saber locks times to like half a second each, make it so that every time you hit enemy with the saber it's a saberlock, and also alot of new animations...

The animation part is hardest, but what I'm saying is that Raven can actually do this quite easy... Atleast I would like to see a sample of it...

razorace
10-27-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Master William
I know, it is in fact very easy. Just edit the saber locks times to like half a second each, make it so that every time you hit enemy with the saber it's a saberlock, and also alot of new animations...

The animation part is hardest, but what I'm saying is that Raven can actually do this quite easy... Atleast I would like to see a sample of it...

It's much more complicated than that. You'd have to determine which saber lock animations to use and create a ton of new animations (which are not easy to do in the first place).

My method will involve using the current animations to allow dynamic locks in any attack move. Even my method requires a lot of work including a total rewrite of the animation system to allow more animation options. I've got as far as finishing a prototype of the animation system for JK2 but hit an engine limitation.

Prime
10-28-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by ig64
are you saying raven is poor?:D
[EDIT] let me put this another way: what is envolved in making these decisions? money? raven shouldn't be the poor. I'm saying that Raven doesn't have infinite funds, and I think you underestimate the costs of new engines and development time. In the case of JA, Lucasarts went to Raven and offered them a contract to build a game with a specified budget and timeframe. Raven decides to either take it and thus make money (and allow developers the fun of working on a Star Wars game), or pass and not make money. They take it the deal.

Originally posted by ig64
time? why rush it? Lucasarts likely specified a time, so Raven had to deal with that. Lucasarts probably specified a time for exactly the reason you are complaining about. Either they wait another 3 or 4 years for another game, or they make one now using existing technology. If they go with option 2, which they did, they can't wait forever, because who's going to want to play a Quake III game in 2 years? So there is pressure to get a game out sooner rather than later. Not only that, but more time means more money which does not necessarily mean an equivilant increase in sales.

Originally posted by ig64
take the time you need. But all the time they need isn't the way to go in a business sense. They need to make games to make money. Releasing one game every 5 years doesn't pay the bills. Employees have to put food on the table. The fact is that the longer it takes to make a game, the more it costs to produce. The greater the cost, the less likely they will be able to recover their investment. Extra time is not proportional to in increase in sales. Therefore there comes a point when the extra time and money invested isn't recovered. They have to draw the line somewhere.

Originally posted by ig64
as you can see, i just don't understand the software industry, or why they can't make better games... Ultimately because they don't have the money and resources available to be cutting edge on everything. The more cutting edge you go, the more risk is involved. Companies need to make a little profit, or else the company goes out of business, which means no games. This does not make them evil. But they aren't charities either. It is a business like any other.

But don't confuse wanting to make money with greed and not caring about the customer. Most developers at Raven lived out their dream working on a Star Wars game. They want to make a great game, and they want players to have fun. But they want to eat too :)

IG-64
10-28-2003, 12:45 AM
ONE game with ONE new engine that they can re-use

mtropolis
10-28-2003, 01:36 AM
good to see im not the only one. I peaked at the movies to KOTOR. Im gonna by it right away for my xbox. Those saberfights looks so sweet! And yes, why not make some of the saberfights partially computer generated? Like share the controll with the computer. I would have been cool. At least for me, since the coolest aspect for me personally, in starwars is the LightSabers. And the Jedi and sith`s. So the project one guy mentioned, open jedi something. It sounded great. Lookin forward to try that out :D And BTW? Why isnt characters like, Han solo, leia, Darth Vader, Darth Maul, dooku and all the other important figures in the starwars universe, included in the MP part of either Jedi Outcast or Academy? I know this is goin on after the old films, but they could still put those characters into the MP section. With new sounds, and not just the cheshire vader models three quotes from the movies.

SlapNut
10-28-2003, 12:16 PM
its a game, you dont phisically have the force or using hands on, so its a bit impossible for a game to make anything but *slash slash swing swing*, its the best they can do, have fun

IG-64
10-28-2003, 12:21 PM
i just wish that they had some sort of locking method that would lock the sabers together when they touch, that wouldn't be too hard right?

Prime
10-28-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by ig64
ONE game with ONE new engine that they can re-use I'm not sure what you mean by this...

Remirol Nacnud
10-28-2003, 04:52 PM
The thing is that the movement of both the character and the sabre are controlled by one thing, the mouse, with a change in position(left, right, forward, backward, up, down) with the key-pad.

We've only got two hands!
You could get some quite advanced fighting if both people were standing still in front of each other(using some specially designed engine)

And btw, does KOTOR use the Q3 engine?

Prime
10-28-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Remirol Nacnud
And btw, does KOTOR use the Q3 engine? KOTOR is the other end of the spectrum when it comes to saber combat. It is based entirely on programmed rules and the moves are scripted. All the player does is give commands for the character to execute. They have not control over where to swing and so on.

And thus it is more or less irrelavent to how JA does combat :)

Remirol Nacnud
10-28-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Prime
KOTOR is the other end of the spectrum when it comes to saber combat. It is based entirely on programmed rules and the moves are scripted. All the player does is give commands for the character to execute. They have not control over where to swing and so on.

And thus it is more or less irrelavent to how JA does combat :)
hhhhmmmmm, that's....uh......interesting.
And there's no demo, so I can't tell if I'll actually like that style.
hhhhhmmm, for that to be ANY good, there'd better be a lot of scripted moves.....

mtropolis
10-28-2003, 05:35 PM
they could try some sort of target locking. Like in the Zelda games for Nintendo n64. That would realy make it kinda easy to make those saberduels to seem very realistic. It worked very well i matrix, reloaded. Buffy the vampire slayer for xbox. So it can be done mutch better, no doubt. So that is a realy good challenge for you modding experts out there.

razorace
10-28-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by mtropolis
they could try some sort of target locking. Like in the Zelda games for Nintendo n64. That would realy make it kinda easy to make those saberduels to seem very realistic. It worked very well i matrix, reloaded. Buffy the vampire slayer for xbox. So it can be done mutch better, no doubt. So that is a realy good challenge for you modding experts out there. I'm planning on implimenting that for MotF.Originally posted by mtropolis
So the project one guy mentioned, open jedi something. It sounded great. Lookin forward to try that out :DMotF is the saber combat modification mod. OJP (Open Jedi Project) is the development platform mod I'm also working on. Some of the cooler parts of MotF will be in OJP but they probably won't be turned on by default.

I hope that makes sense. :)

mtropolis
10-28-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by razorace
I'm planning on implimenting that for MotF.MotF is the saber combat modification mod. OJP (Open Jedi Project) is the development platform mod I'm also working on. Some of the cooler parts of MotF will be in OJP but they probably won't be turned on by default.

I hope that makes sense. :)

Im realy looking forward to try that out! Both of them. I did try the motf for JA actually. Way better than the original setup. I realy loved the dodge function. Since a jedi realy should be able to sence a shot from behind. That was some good work. Keep it up!!!

JediLiberator
10-29-2003, 02:50 AM
What I think we need is the ability to choose when you block and when you attack. The problem with Jedi Knight is defense is automatic and poor because of it. The player should be making a consious choose to go offensive or defensive. The only problem with MOTF is it still depends of purely automatic defenses(like dodging). Sometimes this is bad because you could be in the middle of an attack and your character could go into a full dodge. Although blocking saber blades or blasters will never be fully controlled by the player(not with mouse and keyboard anyways) we should at least have control over weather you attacking or defending.

razorace
10-29-2003, 05:03 AM
Agreed, that's basically the first thing I'm going to do once the SDK comes out.

Kurgan
10-29-2003, 05:05 AM
If I'm not mistaken, KOTOR uses a modified Baldur's Gate 2 engine...

I'm looking forward to trying the PC version when it comes out. Hopefully they'll optimize the interface and take advantage of the superior power of modern PC's and not just do a straight console port.

cylonwwiiol
10-29-2003, 05:19 AM
The hack n slash pokemon saber has to go its goofy and i think made for 3 year olds.

Neverhoodian
10-29-2003, 03:06 PM
originally posted by Kurgan:
I'm looking forward to trying the PC version when it comes out. Hopefully they'll optimize the interface and take advantage of the superior power of modern PC's and not just do a straight console port.

I read in a preview of KOTOR that they're going to add more movies, items and locations in the PC version. I think the graphics may have been improved as well.

Dance Commander
10-30-2003, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by cylonwwiiol
The hack n slash pokemon saber has to go its goofy and i think made for 3 year olds.

Pokemon Jedi? Whatever will Lucasarts think of next. Thats Episode 7 taken care of.

Tsaya
10-30-2003, 08:32 PM
If I'm not mistaken, KOTOR uses a modified Baldur's Gate 2 engine...

I think it's the Neverwinter Nights Engine. Baldurs Gate 2 used the (improved) engine of Baldurs Gate 1 and was still in 2D. Either Way, fights will probably be managed by the computer, leaving you nothing but the choices of a fighting style and some special moves.
Not a bad concept for a RPG but nothing one could compare to a FPS like JA.

KaiaSowapit
10-31-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by JediLiberator
What I think we need is the ability to choose when you block and when you attack. The problem with Jedi Knight is defense is automatic and poor because of it.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree. If defense in multiplayer wasn't automatic, players with the lowest ping would dominate the game. IMHO, bandwidth already plays far too significant a role in online gaming, frequently more so than skill. I'm afraid what you're suggesting would radically unbalance the playing field even further. Though in theory I understand where you are coming from, in practice we need automatic defense, simply because of server latency.

As for "realistic" saber duels... I'm not entirely thrilled with the current system (and have thoughts on how it could potentially be improved), however for reasons such as Tsaya mentioned, it's incredibly unlikely we'll ever see something as authentic as the movies. There's only so much you can do with a mouse and keyboard. Adding more animations might make for nicer eye candy, but at the end of the day, someone still won't be satisfied.

Ultimate "realism" means Luke never dies and no one ever respawns. That doesn't sound like much of a game to me.

Master William
10-31-2003, 11:14 AM
We couldn't get any more obvious! We're talking about the sabers hitting, not THAT kind of stuff. :rolleyes: :p

KaiaSowapit
10-31-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Master William
We couldn't get any more obvious! We're talking about the sabers hitting, not THAT kind of stuff. :rolleyes: :p
Sabers could be hitting all the time, but if it's only for a fraction of a second and your ping sucks, you'd never know about it. Unless you're playing locally, on a LAN or Single Player, animation will always be a bit "twitchy" - that's the nature of online gaming.

Try to appreciate you're asking a lot from current technology. At least three computers (yours, the server and your opponent) have to detect, calculate and share data via the internet about some fairly sophisticated collision detection (not to mention everything else going on in the game world)... and all in damn-near REAL TIME.

Even if you ARE playing locally, if your hardware isn't up to snuff and you drop some frames you STILL might not see the eye candy you're hoping for.

Reread Tsaya's comments. He makes some very valid points. I too am disappointed that dueling is as chaotic as it is, but to some degree we just have to live with it.

IG-64
10-31-2003, 03:49 PM
i play sp and duals seem a little wild for me. if they just spent a little time on programming a locking system so the sabers would connect it would be greatly appreciated

Prime
10-31-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by IG-64
i play sp and duals seem a little wild for me. if they just spent a little time on programming a locking system so the sabers would connect it would be greatly appreciated If you want to see sabers connect more easily, you could always slow down the saber animations. There is a cvar to do it...

JediLiberator
10-31-2003, 08:52 PM
just to clarify my point about defense and attack ill say this. Im not saying you should control which way the saber moves to block a strike or a shot from a blaster. Basically Im saying have the second button on the mouse be the one you hold down when you want to block. Granted you may still end up needing some authomatic defense for blaster fire, but the problem I see is blocking enemy sabers is impossible. The way the game works forces you to go purely offensive with the saber, which isn't how swordplay works. And on another note, if the next game in JK series is sp and has a realistic way of letting you wield the lightsaber I'd be just fine with that.

Nemesis787
11-10-2003, 12:17 PM
I have been working very hard on getting a realistic saber server up. I currently admin the darkmatter public server and have set the server up with the following options:
Force=on jedi knight no lighning or mind trick
Wepaons= limited I got rid of spamming weapons and am considering getting rid of weapons alltogether
melee attacks are on and let you do throws etc. tricky to master though.

here are some sever settings
g_saberLockFactor 20
g_saberlocking 1
g_debugmelee 1
g_saberdamagescale 2

please stop by and offer feedback. any suggestions would be appreciated
server info www.planethaven.net/jediacademy

Samuel Dravis
11-10-2003, 04:10 PM
Basically Im saying have the second button on the mouse be the one you hold down when you want to block.
There was a command in JO where you could manually block. I think it was '+block' or something. See if it works in JA.

Astrotoy7
11-11-2003, 01:22 AM
Bah Humbug ! The more realistic anything becomes, the more boring it can potentially get ! I like the lightning speed of JA.

The moves in the films are choreographed, like Nick Gillard(fight co-ord)explains in one of the webdocs for TPM, "each move is a check" and that is the only possible move you could do to counter the opponents move. If you stuck to this rigidly when making a game, you'd end up with something turn-based for gods sake !!

But if all you need is more saberlocks to make you feel "real" then console it in man !

MTFBWYA

**dont forget to have realsiticcombat on, and dismember probabilities at max. (that makes things hard enough as it is!)

razorace
11-11-2003, 01:41 AM
Ok, can we now have a "learn the game. n00bs." post?

Kurgan
11-11-2003, 04:46 AM
learn the game. n00bs.

Falkentyne
11-11-2003, 05:20 AM
Now I'm not entirely sure about this,
But, isn't something like "Vsim" control necessary ?

For those who don't remember, I'm talking about " Die By the Sword"; remember, you could use joystick Vsim to control your sword.

You, of course, as mentioned above, also need the saber to be an -object-, and not just a bunch of pixels of air. Then once that's done, combined with some physics, such as the position of the enemy saber, which way you are swinging, the force required, which way he is parrying; will his parry be deflected in such a way that he is left in a VERY vulnerable position, allowing you to swing again, and him beinng off balance, and unable to get a clean block = sliced ! ?

Or will YOU be off balance because he parried you accurately, leaving YOU wide open?

THAT's saber combat.
Of course, Vsim control would pretty much prohibit the "Quake 3" running bunny strafing crap; you never saw them do that in the movies, did you? The most you ever saw was someone step forward a bit, advance and pressure the enemy, or step back, being forced to defend.

razorace
11-11-2003, 07:13 AM
I assume you're talking to me.

Well, sort of, Vsim is much too complicated (especially to do it correctly) than simple old me could do. The job needs full engine source code and a pro development team.

However, my system will hopefully get close or better to that sort of system. My system will operate on you controlling the move selection instead of the saber directly. This simplifies the controls and should put the focus on the combat instead of trying to get your saber to do what you want (the main problem with Vsim).

However, my system should have basically everything you described just without the direct blade control.

Akshara
11-11-2003, 07:47 AM
Well I've gotta say, the new patch might not have made JA a perfect saber combat simulator, but it sure makes the combat a whole lot more accurate. Very nice...

keshire
11-11-2003, 08:25 AM
I'm surprised this never came up.

http://moviebattles.jk2mods.com/home.htm

The movie battles mod for JK2 did all the things currently complained about in this thread other than vsim, and come on. How hard was that to control back before optical mice were around? It was near impossible. But was fun watching orcs hop around on one leg. ;)

They are planning their jk3 version now.

|DEM|Mosleg
11-11-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by IG-64
if you ask me, i think they should stop being so... erm... [B]LAZY and drop the Q3 engine and make a similar, yet much better one

The Q3A engine isn't the issue. It in fact is one of the best FPS engines ever developed of all time, if not the best. That's why it is continually being used even 4 years after the games initial release. The actual engine was probably written at least 5 years ago, and is still up to par in technology. Although the engine is getting quite old, and they should have written a new engine for JA, but by far is it the Q3A engine's fault.

It's the fact that the lightsaber fighting was implemented incorrectly. Anything can be done with the Q3A engine if you put your mind to it. Raven just simply implemented the saber fighting incorrectly. I guess they implemented it like they did since sabers were intended to be used in all gametypes and it would be a waste of time to have it where players would have to be standing still just to kill someone they come across with a saber. Duels however, should have the saber physics implemented how they should be. IE: No strafing around. When you see two people in a melee duel, you don't see them strafing across the arena like they're weilding a rocket launcher.

Kurgan
11-12-2003, 01:13 AM
Vsim was a nice idea, but frankly, I hated DBTS... the sword fighting system simply encouraged people to wiggle their mouse back and forth as fast as possible (which made them flail their blade around madly) to win a battle.

Sure I guess that's kinda cool, but it's sort of like winning a fight based on who button mashes the most (like winning a saber lock).

Sure you could use buttons to do predetermined moves, but that was inferior to the "waggle the mouse like a madman" approach, so, heh...


The better solution gameplay wise seems to be simply to give your characters lots of moves, combos, counters, etc like a good fighting game. It worked for the Bushido Blade series after all...

razorace
11-12-2003, 01:34 AM
I agree with Kurgan about Vsim but I think it's possible to "fix" that sort of system. The problem with it was that it simply didn't "feel" right in terms of mouse movement to sword movement. I beleive it's fixable with some tight mouse acceleration tweaking.

Iblis Reborn
11-13-2003, 10:34 PM
i think that what they have now is what they wanted the game to be

i like it the way it is and alot of the ideas being thrown around are to make it more RPG like

this game was never meant to be an RPG
its a FPS with a lightsaber and thats the way i likes it :D

Azymn
11-13-2003, 10:56 PM
"Realistic Saber Combat" system improvements are not RPG-esque.

Iblis Reborn
11-14-2003, 12:08 AM
some of the suggestions seemed to want to take away the control of the fighting just so that it looks like the movies...that sounds rpg like to me

and why slow down the fighting and the movement?
wouldnt it just make that annoying?
its suppost to be fast paced

how does making the sabers lock for a bit everytime they touch make it more realistic?

i agree that manual blocking might have made things more interesting but i have no problem with the way it is now

Gotaiken
11-14-2003, 04:19 AM
the fix probaly wouldnt be all that hard.

1.make it so that you can control the saber more accurately. shoudlnt be too hard, just give the saber physics, and the smartest thing to do (why the hell didnt they do this) is sort of have a built in aiming system, depending on how much saber offense you have.

ive played mp a lot, and ive been right next to a person and hit them with the crosshairs on them, and it didnt hit (for all the cynisists out there, i actually told someone to stand still to prove my point)

fighting should be more tactical and strategical, its just smarter for a lightsaber, aiming should be a factor to a point. for instance, there should be an autoaim in the works, but the closer the actual person aims the more of a chance the saber should hit, on top of the auto aim, something like that.

auto aim is neccesary, if your running fast you could easily not hit someone, or time your attack wrong when running

2.something needs to be implemented to take away the use of strafing

thats all for now

Tigjaw
12-17-2003, 07:46 PM
if only they added a block button, it would sort this problem out completely. i was veyr very disapointed with the saber fighting when i got used to the game and the only way to win a fight seemed to be to just keep jamming down the crouch button whilst smashing the command buttons and adding some directions in for extra 'confusement'.
but the art of a Jedi is that they arent just normal people running around crouching swaying a Saber around.
but i believe by adding a block button it would sort this problem out, also in the movies when a Jedi blocked an attack from a saber i cant remember seeing them getting damaged.
so in summary:
>Add block button
>remove damage whilst blocking
>use other combo keys on a keyboard or use a different button other than the Right trigger for the xbox for the attack combos, this will add control to the fighting, for example if you wanted to slice to the left click: "left directional button + one of the letter buttons"
what ya think?

JediCrow
12-17-2003, 09:17 PM
The problem is that it seems next to impossible to make a sword fighting system (and thats what we're REALLY talking about here) that gives the player as much control as you want in a game and also recreates the coolness of sword (and lightsaber) fights we see on film. To my knowledge, this has NEVER been done. It just seems that it's not possible. The more control you give the player, the less "realistic" the fight is going to be. Give people the freedom to run, jump and roll around, and that's what they are going to do, since you gave them that mobility and they don't want to be a sitting target. And conversely, the more "canned action" you put into your system, it makes the combat look cooler, but at the cost of the players feeling like they are really in control.

Agen
12-18-2003, 12:01 AM
if only they added a block button, it would sort this problem out completely
It's almost impossible for a block button to work fairly in mp, ping can and usually will become a bigger factor than skill, end of story.

Also, wasn't there floods of complaining about the constant blocking in jk2, I never had a problem with it but people didn't seem to happy about it. In jka with duals or staff just whacking a standing person straight on hurts em pretty bad.

I like the lightning speed of JA.
You gotta be joking, JKA is by far the slowest jk game yet. Chaotic - yes, fast - no frickin' way.

Also in jka, the hit detection is way off for no forseeable reason imo, in jk2 two singles (obviously) could fight each other and there's be no serious diddy ups but in this, if two singles duel the hit detection still messes up frequently.

Kurgan
12-18-2003, 02:39 AM
What is with the constant complaints about "speed" with JA?

As far as I can tell it feels just as "fast" (or slow) as JK2.

And in fact if you check the g_speed cvar in both games you'll see it's default at "250" in both SP and MP.

I can't tell any difference in the speed of the moves either.

So what are you talking about?


JK1 and MotS were of equal speed and almost double the speed of JK2/JA, but that's a different story. You can achieve this fairly closely in JK2/JA by setting g_speed to 400-500.


PS: If you want a little more "realism" and coolness in your JA duels, do this:

(edit your desktop shortcut to your dedicated server, here's what mine looks like in the target field):

C:\games\JediAcademy\GameData\jampDed.exe +net_port 29070 +dedicated 2 +exec server.cfg +seta d_saberSPStyleDamage 2 +seta bot_honorableduelacceptance 1



The command in bold makes it so that sabers do "idle damage" like in JK2. Only the idle damage is BETTER because in JK2 it did a "pulse" of 5 hp per pulse. Now it's a steady damage of 1 hp every 1/5 second. And if somebody puts a saber in the way of the idle saber, they "clash" together (not the same as a saber lock, but still pretty cool). It gives the battles a little more of a cinematic feel and a touch more realism.

Now before you get worried about a "scratch killing you" it only does a max of 5 hp per second and that's if it's held against their flesh. It is UNAFFECTED by saberdamagescale. So even if you crank saberdamagescale up to 999, the idle damage will still be only 5 hp per second.

The second command, for anyone interested makes it so that if you turn off your saber (or turn off one blade with Dual or Staff) a bot will turn off his/her saber near you (if they have saber out) and you can challenge them to a duel! A fun feature. ; )


PS: Thanks to RazorAce for helping me figure those out!

Prime
12-18-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
It's almost impossible for a block button to work fairly in mp, ping can and usually will become a bigger factor than skill, end of story. Not only that, but having a block button will just mean that players will just have a button to hold down all the time when they are not attacking. It will be the same as auto-blocking, as players will just holding it down when they aren't attacking. Isn't that more or less the same as it is now?

Personally, I don't want to be holding down a key for almost the entire time I'm playing.

Tigjaw
12-18-2003, 04:03 PM
maybe they should just remove the damage whilst blocking thing in the game then, because i do know what you mean about the holding the button down all the time.
but to be honest i cant find much skill to the game, it is just messy.
i think the only way to get realistic is to get as close as possible to taking 'turns' without the action being non-real-time.
i'm sure they can do this, look at the samurai games like kengo, the blocking and everything is fine and there is skill to it.

Prime
12-18-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Tigjaw
maybe they should just remove the damage whilst blocking thing in the game then They did this in JO for a time and everyone was up in arms because it was so hard to hit anybody...

razorace
12-18-2003, 09:06 PM
That's why I suggest directional manual blocking with a rechargable amount of autoblocking (Dodge).