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View Full Version : Is there anybody happy with changes to DFAs?


RigoR_MortiS
10-30-2003, 03:39 PM
The yellow and heavy DFAs. Most of you will agree that they are practically useless, or I am such an idiot that cannot see their uber uses. Yellow DFA, or flip was an actually useful move in JO, being pivotable made it require some skill to utilize efficiently. Well, ARE there anybody who can understand the motive behind the design desicion to screw the flip?!? Beats me.
Heavy DFA was very powerful, but made SO FFA's a DFA fest, so I can understand that change. But making it a completely idiotic move with no use? That's a bit extreme I think..
Don't go "This is a new Game, New Rules Apply!", we know where that line of thought will go thank you very much..

ps: If you know of any use of DFAs, please enlighten us..

Darth_Misery
10-30-2003, 04:00 PM
I don't really have a beef with the yellow/red DFA change in JA. They do require a hefty dose of precision timing to pull off effectively and they're not as easy to use overall as they were in JK2.

However, they do have their uses. I use the yellow DFA primarily as a counter for Staff/Dual butterfly or for Staff/Dual crouching specials. The Staff/Dual crouching specials (the "chopper" in Dual; the "twirler" in Staff) cause the player to remain motionless. Position yourself and execute the yellow DFA. The strike to the head from the yellow DFA will either kill them outright or knock their health down so low that any additional glancing strike will kill them.

Yellow DFA is also an excellent counter for an incoming butterfly. Timing is extremely critical (I think the 3rd hop). Execute the yellow DFA in the face of an oncoming butterfly. Generally, your swing will hit the oncoming opponent square in the head. Again, instant kill or near-lethal damage.

The yellow DFA for me is more difficult to use in a big brawl. But, if you have a cluster of players around you, it can be fun to swipe the heads of several players at once. It doesn't seem as lethal in this situation due to the unpredictable motions of the opponents. Also, it does leave you wide open on the landing.

My best suggestion is to use it as a special move counter. It's much more successful as a valid move in that respect.


The red DFA is really hard to use but, if you're good with movement prediction, you can really make it sing. It's like playing a game of darts with a moving bullseye. If you can plan the timing right by accurately predicting the movement of your intended victim, you can "meet" them at an intersection point and inflict some serious pain. It's not easy by any means but you can make it work. I don't recommend using it like the yellow DFA due to the positioning of the landing. It's real easy to get chopped to death by red DFA-ing katas or specials.


The DFA's in JA are by no means useless. They just take more timing, patience and focus to pull off successfully.

See you online!

Prime
10-30-2003, 04:17 PM
I don't think it is fair to say they are useless. At least, I find myself using them from time to time, and they seem to be affective. I don't use them as much as some other moves though.

The thing is, DFA was the be all end all move in JO, and personally I'm kind of glad it isn't anymore, if only because it was spammed so much. Frankly, I'm happy either way...

Blankie
10-30-2003, 04:27 PM
"My best suggestion is to use it as a special move counter. It's much more successful as a valid move in that respect."

Or just do what everyone else does and use the light lunge. No tricky timing, just as good damage, and ten billion times easier to connect.

If you're going for style points... by all means.

Blank

RigoR_MortiS
10-30-2003, 04:28 PM
Thanks Darth_Misery! will go try them! I don't have problems with timing red DFA or landing it (thanks to air rocket practise in Q3 :)), I merely stated out it is not worthy taking the risk anymore, because the damage is pesky.

Prime
10-30-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Blankie
Or just do what everyone else does and use the light lunge. No tricky timing, just as good damage, and ten billion times easier to connect. I find this a far more useful strategy. Plus you aren't leaving yourself nearly as open defensively.

RigoR_MortiS
10-30-2003, 04:34 PM
Yes, Lunge. A perfect counter, but yellow DFA is the point of discussion here. For a stylish counter, I will give it a try :)

Sam Fisher
10-30-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by RigoR_MortiS
or I am such an idiot that cannot see their uber uses.

Ahem.....



The changes with the DFAs were a nice change, because in JO, the only move was the red DFA, now, for you spammers out there, its harder. Live with it.


:)

Comm539
10-30-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by SamFisher
Ahem.....



The changes with the DFAs were a nice change, because in JO, the only move was the red DFA, now, for you spammers out there, its harder. Live with it.


:)

I dispair at some people. You've spoken like a true noob. Gj.

Duels: Never
ctf: Essential for ragers
ffa: spammed

It was spammed in one game mode, it is needed in others (with nf otherwise rage is useless).

ps. Learn to dodge a dfa.

Luc Solar
10-30-2003, 05:15 PM
I think it's safe to say that a move is useless if it is more risky and requires a whole lot more skill to execute than other more damaging easy-to-do low risk moves.

I think they pulled a "Raven" and nerfed the DFA to hell. Something a little less powerful than the 1.04 DFA would have been great.

Oh well...someone is always unhappy when stuff changes.

Comm539
10-30-2003, 06:13 PM
The arguement for DFA to use force is that it stops people whoring. K. Lets just whore roll stab then. No pun intended but 'Thats So Raven' (*throws up after cheesy american shows*)

Syzerian
10-31-2003, 06:16 AM
yes dfas r useless red dfa should at least do more damage and yellow dfa ur guy jumps too high so u can never hit unless ur opponent jumps

KaiaSowapit
10-31-2003, 08:21 AM
I dunno what you're talking about... I've had my ass handed to me more times than I care to remember by people using single saber, red stance in Academy. Its block-defeating capability is still formidable.

In my experience:
dual sabers = easiest for a newcomer to use & achieve success with
staff = a little trickier than duals, requiring a bit more skill to use effectively, yet still easier than singles
single saber = most challenging style to use, yet in the hands of a skilled player, often very effective
As with any online game, your mileage will vary with latency.

RigoR_MortiS
10-31-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by KaiaSowapit
I dunno what you're talking about... I've had my ass handed to me more times than I care to remember by people using single saber, red stance in Academy. Its block-defeating capability is still formidable.

In my experience:
dual sabers = easiest for a newcomer to use & achieve success with
staff = a little trickier than duals, requiring a bit more skill to use effectively, yet still easier than singles
single saber = most challenging style to use, yet in the hands of a skilled player, often very effective
As with any online game, your mileage will vary with latency.

err, you are right. But we are not bashing single saber, only DFAs of medium and heavy stance.:jawa

Master William
10-31-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Comm539
I dispair at some people. You've spoken like a true noob. Gj.

Duels: Never
ctf: Essential for ragers
ffa: spammed

It was spammed in one game mode, it is needed in others (with nf otherwise rage is useless).

ps. Learn to dodge a dfa.

I always use lunges and DFAs in Duels. Not the Red DFA/lunge (what's the difference?) though.

Yellow DFA got me alot of kills in JO, but in JA you have to use it in another way I guess...

KaiaSowapit
10-31-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by RigoR_MortiS
err, you are right. But we are not bashing single saber, only DFAs of medium and heavy stance.:jawa
Um, if I'm right then exactly what are you "bashing?"

In my experience whilst playing Academy, DFAs are not only virtually unblockable, but frequently one-hit kills.

What's left to complain about - that they are trickier to perform than in Outcast? Honestly, it doesn't seem to be an issue for the people I've been playing with - frequently 1st place on my server goes to a single saber user (and it ain't all katas or Force Powers). Clearly they're doing something right. Perhaps you simply need more practice?

RigoR_MortiS
10-31-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by KaiaSowapit
Um, if I'm right then exactly what are you "bashing?"

In my experience whilst playing Academy, DFAs are not only virtually unblockable, but frequently one-hit kills.

What's left to complain about - that they are trickier to perform than in Outcast? Honestly, it doesn't seem to be an issue for the people I've been playing with - frequently 1st place on my server goes to a single saber user (and it ain't all katas or Force Powers). Clearly they're doing something right. Perhaps you simply need more practice?

I merely pointed out that in your first post, you didn't mention a single thing about DFAs of single saber, which is the topic here. You were right about your observations about single saber and other sabers. And I love single saber, that's why I want to learn the uses for new DFAs. Clearly red stance DFA has little damage, which makes taking the risk of executing that move a silly thing IMHO. The "No use" definition by Luc Solar makes sense here..

ps: I am a NF SO duelist.. so balance in saberstyles and saber types are of utmost importance to me..

tunafish
10-31-2003, 12:27 PM
I never have a problem hitting with the red DFA, if anything it's easier to do in JA than it was in JO. The problem is the fact that when I blatantly slice someone right through the middle of their forehead and they walk away. I don't see why they don't up the damage on it back to what it was, since there are plenty of other moves and counters to spam in JA than there is in JO.

Prime
10-31-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
I think it's safe to say that a move is useless if it is more risky and requires a whole lot more skill to execute than other more damaging easy-to-do low risk moves. But I thought a lot of players wanted the game to require more skill? So why aren't they happy with DFA? :D

SlapNut
10-31-2003, 01:42 PM
ill read it and reply when u can translate dfa for me

BloodRiot
10-31-2003, 02:13 PM
*sigh*

DFA = Death From Above

Yellow DFA = Yellow Stance overhead flip slash

Red DFA = Forward leap with vertical downwards slash. AKA most spammed move in JO.

Luc Solar
10-31-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Prime
But I thought a lot of players wanted the game to require more skill? So why aren't they happy with DFA? :D

LOL! Yes...but it doesn't really work if they make one move really hard to pull off but leave 17 other easy-to-do moves in the game. ;)

What I wanted was deadly sabers and strong but manual blocking which is affected by the saber style used to block and by the attack the opponent makes.

Oh well.. didn't get it. Tough luck. :(

KaiaSowapit
10-31-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
LOL! Yes...but it doesn't really work if they make one move really hard to pull off but leave 17 other easy-to-do moves in the game. ;)
You do appreciate that most of the "17 other easy-to-do moves in the game" have their own limitations? Many require the attacker to remain stationary for example. Furthermore, most can easily be blocked, so long as you're not trying to attack simultaneously. Red DFA is one of the few exceptions; it can't be blocked. You don't think a move that can't be blocked shouldn't require an exceptional amount of skill???
What I wanted was deadly sabers and strong but manual blocking which is affected by the saber style used to block and by the attack the opponent makes.
You CAN have deadly sabers... it's just a matter of cranking up the cvar g_saberDamageScale (even Raven suggests a higher number than the default 1 for gametypes such as FFA).

Manual blocking? Consider this scenario:

You join a server with a ping between 150 to 200. I join the same server and have a ping at or below 50. Guess what? By the time you click your "manual block" button, my saber has already decapitated you. Your best bet at survival would be to hold down your manual block key the entire time you're wandering around the map.

Does that honestly sound like an improvement?

Manual blocking is fine and dandy if there's ZERO lag or packet loss between all clients. Short of LAN parties, when do you expect that to happen?

Prime
10-31-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
LOL! Yes...but it doesn't really work if they make one move really hard to pull off but leave 17 other easy-to-do moves in the game. ;)True. I jsut couldn't resist :D

Originally posted by Luc Solar
[BWhat I wanted was deadly sabers [/B] I wouldn't mind that either. I wish more servers had the damage scale increased...

Dethsaint
10-31-2003, 05:15 PM
I find the Red DFA useful for tearing up Kata spammers. At the very end of a Kata your opponent can't move and timed correctly timing you'll hit him smack down the middle of his skull - The only thing that really disappoints me is the fact it hardly does any damage... Or so it seems. :confused:

eniaC
10-31-2003, 06:48 PM
Umm...didn't DFA's require more timing in JO but without the loss of force. What's the argument here the force drainage or the skill reqiured to pull off the move or the point that they never land a hit?

I Find yellow harder to land but easier to execute in JA, and red is far for more easy to execute in JA and does less damage. I believe the added force reqiured to pull these off were a great addition to the game but I wish they had left the dif. lvl to pull it off were it was at.

And yes I find yellow DFA practically useless, thats why I keep using it, to find a use for it. : )

:r2d23: eniaC

FK | unnamed
10-31-2003, 07:06 PM
bind Z "+forward;wait 2;+moveup;wait 2;+attack"



There, the red DFA (works well for both actually) now requires zero timing to execute, thank me later.



;)



As for the red DFA damage?

Worthless.

In duel mode it can take up to 3 head on red DFA's to kill a guy with no shields.

Considering other moves like the roll+stab can do up to 70, why bother with a 30 damage move that leaves you open longer?

Luc Solar
10-31-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by KaiaSowapit
You do appreciate that most of the "17 other easy-to-do moves in the game" have their own limitations? Many require the attacker to remain stationary for example. Furthermore, most can easily be blocked, so long as you're not trying to attack simultaneously. Red DFA is one of the few exceptions; it can't be blocked. You don't think a move that can't be blocked shouldn't require an exceptional amount of skill???

Ehm..no.. What I meant to say was: why use the red DFA when you can do more damage using other moves that require less skill and that won't leave you open for counter attacks?

"You CAN have deadly sabers... it's just a matter of cranking up the cvar g_saberDamageScale (even Raven suggests a higher number than the default 1 for gametypes such as FFA)."

Yeah....so why isn't saberdamagescale2 the default in FFA then? Because Raven really hopes that saberdamagescale2 would be used more even though they must realize that 99% of servers will run saberdamagescale1? Confusing stupidity.

Manual blocking? Consider this scenario:
You join a server with a ping between 150 to 200. I join the same server and have a ping at or below 50. Guess what? By the time you click your "manual block" button, my saber has already decapitated you. Your best bet at survival would be to hold down your manual block key the entire time you're wandering around the map.Does that honestly sound like an improvement?
Manual blocking is fine and dandy if there's ZERO lag or packet loss between all clients. Short of LAN parties, when do you expect that to happen?

I never said I wanted manual blocking as in "press a button to block." No, I hate that idea.

What I hoped for was blocking-by-aiming, not pressing the block-button.

EDIT: I'm way too drunk to type. Sry. :(

DarthCobra
11-03-2003, 12:50 AM
They broke both the dfa's badly.

Now I'll admit they can kill, an can be effective at times..

But for the most part they are broke. The red dfa does about 20 damage unless used during an attack/kata (often fatal if used on a kata) while the yellow dfa is completely broke as far as im concerned. When testing damage on the attacks when ja was first released, we found it almost impossible to TRY to get hit by the attack. I'd say any damage this one does now is 75% luck. I do think the red dfa was overpowered in jk2 but then again it was easy enough to avoid an counter making it just fine to me. But it gets to the point where your performing the move leaves you more open to damage than possible damage you can do to someone makes it kinda pointless. I generally just save my force for lunges an dont use these moves at all.

Dance Commander
11-03-2003, 01:09 AM
You'd think it was simple.... The harder to perform/hit a move, the more damage.

Rolling stab is stupidly easy, and shouldn't really do much damage. Maybe blocking should be increased to make fights last longer and require more skill.

And there should be a hanicap for people who keep shouting "lamer" or "n00b". I just don't like them very much.

Instead of "n00b" try, "Your crap!"
Instead of "Lamer" try, "dont be a gimp u ass monkey!"

Im sure you could bind them to some key.

DarthCobra
11-03-2003, 01:49 AM
I just wish everyone would say it like it is...

instead of "n00b" say.. god your good....
instead of "hack" say... You must practice alot....
instead of "lamer" say nothing at all.. an quit freakin chatting or draw your saber an fight honor idiot.

Kurgan
11-03-2003, 03:37 AM
Yeah....so why isn't saberdamagescale2 the default in FFA then? Because Raven really hopes that saberdamagescale2 would be used more even though they must realize that 99% of servers will run saberdamagescale1? Confusing stupidity.

In my talk with Mike he didn't give a very straight answer (maybe out of his area of expertise anyway) but basically said that the damage changes are "invisible" (independent of the cvars) in Duel vs. other game modes for more damage.

Typing in saberdamagescale # overrides whatever automatic settings there are.

Apparently the "increased damage" for sabers in non-Duels may be lower then 2 (which is 2x normal saber damage).

My point was, I use saberdamagescale 2 in all game modes.. because I think it makes it more balanced, in duels and elsewhere. For non Duels I don't want to wait around dueling somebody when I'm supposed to be going for the flag or the next objective, I want to be able to get a quick kill and move on. In Duels I hate waiting forever while two people nick each other with nerf bats (it takes forever as it is with all the bowing and crap anyway).

They didn't make 2 default across the board because most people apparently wanted longer duels. But then they also had people who wanted quicker kills with them in CTF, etc. Chalk it up to a last minute fix perhaps or wrangling with LA.

In any case, as I tested it... with saberdamagescale 2 the DFA is a one hit kill move (shields or no shields), unless you just nick their arm or something. The yellow DFA is also a potential one hit kill move in the same fashion. Ditto with the Lunge. Now of the three, the Lunge is the easiest to land, but not every situation is ideal for it obviously (since you have to be fairly close to use it effectively).

The DFA's only real strength is that it moves forward and is unblockable, but once you get the damage out of the way it becomes useful again. What they obviously didn't intend was to make it so powerful and useful that it would be the only move a person would use the entire fight (for example in JK2 1.02).

The only thing about making moves "hard to do" is that people can always make scripts to bind them, so what's the point really?

The "stronger" moves are riskier, either in terms of using up mana or leaving you open to counter attack, etc. That seems to have been their design philosophy this time around. Of course people can always set forceregen time to 0 and mess up that system pretty well... ; p


As far as complaining about the saber damage, people did the same thing with 1.04. With the default settings (that "99% of servers will use" by the same logic) the sabers were MUCH weaker than in 1.02. However they just told people to use the cvar to change it to 2 and that was the fix. Apparently enough people chose to avail themselves of it that it wasn't such a problem. The vast majority of JK2 players aren't dueling, they're playing FFA or CTF. Or are they just twirling nerf bats around?

I hope not...