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Master William
10-31-2003, 02:25 PM
I don't know what to say, really... I have experience from JO with the single saber, red stance.

In JA, it seems that I can kill anyone just like that with a red stance side swing. Just with one little hit. And no matter what they do, my forward heavy slash with red stance just kills them instantly, it's like we might as well throw away the others.

Same thing when I was facing an opponent with red stance, no matter how much I try, he just has to red stance side swing. You're all probably gonna say I suck at the game and that I shouldn't complain. Well, think again. I'm the one using single saber all the time, and I find myself killing people awfully often with just a side swing of the red stance.

Now, do you agree? Should they decrease the damage a bit or something? Also, when somebody is performing a kata/spinning saber(s), or similar, you can just forward heavy slash them. It's too easy to kill somebody now.

And too easy to kill somebody with the red stance. I think it should be decreased just a bit.

Crow_Nest
10-31-2003, 02:28 PM
No. Red stance is supposed to be like that. 1 slash can -90 sometimes.:cool:

acdcfanbill
10-31-2003, 02:28 PM
nope, if anything i think its underpowered a touch in one area, blocking :) I cant count the times i can get a clean torso swipe on somone with single red, only its blocked by their staff/dual and i take dmg.

there are a few, just a few tweaks needed to balance nf dueling.

SlapNut
10-31-2003, 02:39 PM
yep, for a boring wepon, it should do boring dammage. When i do that awsome swing the sabre around my back super fast move(hold mouse 1+back right+right), i want that to be way stronger cos it looks soo cool, ive been killed by one shot from a strong stancer, bloody enoying, while im doing awsome moves with my staff and not hurting him, logically, if u swing the sbre that slowly, it shouldnt hurt as much

Sivy
10-31-2003, 02:44 PM
i don't think its too strong.
with the red stance timing is everything.

SlapNut
10-31-2003, 02:49 PM
there is no timing, u dont know which way your opponent is gonna move next, unles he's running around u in a perfect circle whiucj never happens

BloodRiot
10-31-2003, 02:52 PM
Slapnut... dont mean to flame or anything... but that's about the dumbest post i've read lately.

Pretty moves dont automatically make them effective. And if you think beautyful acrobatics are logically the most effective.. damn man... then kung fu, karate, aikido ,etc are next to nothing compared to ballet and acrobatic dancing.

If i ever get mugged on the street i know now... I'll tango him to death.

Mind you that the single saber is not underpowered becasue of the sheer power of the red stance as base fighting style, the other stances are good but mostly as extras to be used at a given time... blue fast swipes for instance if u happen to know your opponent is near death.

Staff does about the same ammount of damage as the red stances sometimes and it's faster than red. And like it was said... with red stance timming is everything... you got good damage.. but you gotta learn how to use it first.

Tone down red stance and you got an underpowered single saber. and THEN you'll have tons of complaint and these would be valid ones.

SlapNut
10-31-2003, 03:12 PM
never, i want my acrobat twirly dancing moves all the way, they look awsome, if i get mugged in the street (even though there are no 'muggings' in perth) then i wouldnt slowly swimg my arm at him, i'd kick him in the head hard and fast.

BloodRiot
10-31-2003, 03:31 PM
ok i see we are reaching for extremes here and yes i started it.. so ok let's tone this down for a more gamewise reasonable explanation.

Single saber my all means is supposed to be weaker..1 blade vs 2 blades being dual or staff.

However this is a game so... single saber's disadavantage translates as the only moves that actually do some damage have to be timmed becasue they are slower... ok so it's not realistic..but neither is anything about this game... any slash, slow or fast, strong or light... means an instant deep cauterized cut through any part of the body.

Plz compare some facts about all three sabertypes.
Dual and Staff have unlimited chained moves... single does not.
Staff deals good damage and have the butterfly that most often kills in 1 good hit.
Duals have enourmous backslash damage and a quite effective defense. The dual saber twirls can even hit an opponent at the dualist's back.
Duals also have a butterfly even though i find it weaker.
Single has 2 dfa's but they are only usefull on very few occasions and otherwise leave u totally open for counterattack.
Granted single has 3 katas but poorly executed and u are open for counter and most often a sitting duck... i dont recommend Katas in a duel server. only in FFA.

Between the faster and practically equal slashes from a staff...vs the good defense and not so poor offense of the dual... i think a slow moving slash that requires good timming should be rewarding.

Staff is all about good looking moves and most of them are quite effective.. the only non effective move i happen to find is the backflip slash.

Single players have to be smart to win.

Also dont forget that ping plays a part here.
If you are a bit lagged, then maybe you aren't landing your staff hits as you think u are... maybe in fact.. to the server and lower pinged players you are just grazing them.

I only seldom kill with one red slash. I mostly it takes 3 slashes.

As I sometimes get hit by a butterfly and get killed instantly or i may just get grazed for 1 hp.

It all depends.

Bottom line is... i dont believe red stance is overpowered. Also think of it... if with that speed, red was weaker... why would anyone use it at all?

It's not about realism.. it's about gameplay and balance.

And i say it again.. take away red stance's power and u got an underpowered single saber... just as giving blue stance the current red damage rate would make it uber.

Cheers.

Prime
10-31-2003, 03:34 PM
Red stance is fine the way it is. No need to change it.

BloodRiot
10-31-2003, 03:36 PM
god dammit prime... i wish i could get down to the point in one sentence like you.

You are right.

Akshara
10-31-2003, 03:54 PM
Red stance is fine... with the saberstaff I have no problem taking out red stancers who come at me with that horizontal swing. It's all a matter of timing and anticipation. Frankly, my experience so far is that most (not all) of the single saberists I encounter who tend to only use red stance are fairly predictable in how they're going to attack.

You just need to find the right people to duel, MW...

:p

Rad Blackrose
10-31-2003, 05:23 PM
Right now, red stance is getting more noticed then the other two with the single saber because yellow and to a lesser extent, blue, are gimped.

While yellow and blue are sufficient to take on a single saber user, you have to have a very, very good concept of timing blows in order to use them against dual saber/dual bladed staff users.

Kurgan
10-31-2003, 05:28 PM
Single Fast stance has unlimited chain combos... so you're wrong in saying that Single Saber doesn't have unlimited chainable moves...

Single's katas are faster and leave you less open to attack than the Dual/Staff katas (note the slow windup for the staff Kata, and the many counters to dual saber barrier).

Sure you can't flop forward like a dying fish with singles, but you get the DFA, Yellow DFA and Lunge. Not bad... ; )

And all stances/types have instant kill possible moves. Or at least they do with saberdamagescale 2...


I find them all well balanced. The only stance I'm not very good with is Medium. However with practice I'm sure it will be just as useful to me as the others. Right now I use it primarily to confuse opponents who are used to me using Strong or Fast.

Master William
10-31-2003, 05:29 PM
Umm, if you read correctly, I AM the one killing people too easy... Red stance is no problem at all, just swing at them and they'll die easy for sure. I did find a way against red stancers though, today after I posted this thread.

With Dual sabers: Turn off one saber. When you run and slash, you slash in a weak and horizontal way. This can easily kill them while they are side swinging. I also found out before I made this thread that Yellow stance with the Staff (when you turn one blade off) or Single Saber is very effective against Red stancers (side swing with yellow stance)

You know what, never mind. You're all right, and look at me, I know alot of counters against it.

The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings don't mean strong blows. And it just breaks through anything, that's a bit irritating.

Rad Blackrose
10-31-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Single Fast stance has unlimited chain combos... so you're wrong in saying that Single Saber doesn't have unlimited chainable moves...

Single's katas are faster and leave you less open to attack than the Dual/Staff katas (note the slow windup for the staff Kata, and the many counters to dual saber barrier).

Sure you can't flop forward like a dying fish with singles, but you get the DFA, Yellow DFA and Lunge. Not bad... ; )

And all stances/types have instant kill possible moves. Or at least they do with saberdamagescale 2...

Only move viable out of the three are the lunge. Everyone has access to the roll stab, the fixed rotation on the undercut does not help, and DFA is practically useless, even with it's modified keypress.

I'm not going to comment on the unlimited chainable moves, because I didn't say anything about them earlier.

Akshara
10-31-2003, 06:00 PM
Sorry MW... misread your first post. It does kinda sound like you're saying you can kill anyone just like that with a red stance side swing. But I see what you meant...

And you're all right, too! [that's a little "misreading your post again" joke...]


;)

KaiaSowapit
10-31-2003, 06:03 PM
Okay, at the risk of opening up the floodgates of exploitation nirvana here's the real problem (as I see it) with the various styles & stances.

Saber Staff & Dual Sabers require no more than level one Saber Attack to be 100% effective.

That's right... while all you Single Saber fans have been throwing away 14 points to enable red stance, every Staff & Dual fan have had the opportunity to spend those 13 other points on whatever other Force Power(s) they please.

That means higher levels of Lightning, Drain, Rage, Absorb, etc. for Dual/Staff users... with absolutely NO loss of offensive power. Heck, with 13 extra points, that's Force Grip with 3 points to spare.

That my friends, IMHO is a HUGE imbalance; the three levels of the Force Power "Saber Attack" really ONLY apply to single saber users. (Of course on a server with Force Powers disabled, this is all moot.)

That said, personally I do think red stance is somewhat over-powered; more so for its block-defeating ability than anything else (especially when you factor in latency). I also think ALL sabers should be equal in damage, yet Staff/Dual saber users should be penalized with a higher drain on their Force pool when using specials/katas (it seems appropriate to me that staying focused on two blades should be more taxing on a Jedi/Sith's ability to concentrate).

I still fail to see the logic in a slowly moving blade being harder to block and doing more damage. Heck if that's the rule, an idle saber should be the most deadly of all.

SpaceButler13
10-31-2003, 06:04 PM
I think the damage is good, though a little more blocking ability would be nice so there'd be less hit and run.

Akshara
10-31-2003, 06:13 PM
Saber Staff & Dual Sabers require no more than level one Saber Attack to be 100% effective.
Hmm... he does have a point there.

But you know, I used to only put 1 level into saber offense with my staff (and the rest into full Sight), but noticed when I did that my attacks didn't seem to be as effective - at least I didn't play as well anyway. Could've just been my imagination, but it did seem to be noticeable to me... and not just during saber locks. I too had read on the forums here that staves didn't need Saber Offense points beyond level 1 except for saber locking, but started to doubt that in actual practice and went back to giving it all 3 levels just in case. Whether psychological or not, I do play better with it maxxed out.

Call me crazy...

eniaC
10-31-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Master William
The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings don't mean strong blows. And it just breaks through anything, that's a bit irritating.

Umm...since when does a slow two handed swing from a freakin beam of light (not a metal blade) not cut someone in half. Single saber is a two handed weapon(for the most part) your swings would cause a great more deal of damage than somebody flailing about with a saber in each hand or a staff with its awkwardness trying to take long hard swings is not feasable.
I'm pretty sure a solid beam of light would cut right through just about anything, If you want to be realistic that is.
ie: Qui-gonn Ep. 1 melts through a door with out quick fast swing, but cutting through flesh thats different right?


:r2d23:eniaC

AnArKey
10-31-2003, 06:39 PM
Single/red is already pretty weak at blocking. Most flailing dual/staff users will break right through and cause massive damage each and every time they come close. Been reduced from 100/100 to dead by nothing more that button mashing very often. You MUST keep your distance. The big red swings don't break through defenses all the time either, far from it. I'd say 50% of the time, maybe. I have counted 5 times in a row I have landed those big swings only to have them deflected for no damage. They aren't uber moves by any means. They just seem that way once you get real good with timing and can land them constantly against opponents that come running into them.

I don't even use the chains either. I just use one swing at a time. Why? To me, single is all about getting your hit in, then getting AWAY. If I'm using a chain move, I get hit in between swings constantly. More often, it just does me more harm than my opponent to try and chain.

Syzerian
10-31-2003, 06:52 PM
ive had to hit a stationary person 6+ times with the red stance and thats the big swing going right through their body
the only reason red is so strong is the game does damage every frame its in ur opponents body so 20 damage can be multiplied over and over in certain places just go in single player and turn the saber animmation down low and u can kill tavion in one hit with blue stance

eniaC
10-31-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Syzerian
ive had to hit a stationary person 6+ times with the red stance and thats the big swing going right through their body


As I have as well, seems a bit silly huh? (I'm not complaining by any means I love the game how it is don't get me wrong) I just think the statement of red stance doing too much damage is far far from the truth. [maybe it's just my fps(35-80 in MP) or maybe I just wish that my fav. style and stance were better (BS).

:r2d23:eniaC

babywax
10-31-2003, 07:40 PM
I've had a guy roll at me with duals, do a roll-stab, and I used red overhead on him. The entire swing hit him, on the side, from head to foot, and he didn't die. It is very rare against a skilled opponent to do a full connection hit like that, it should always kill, it's just stupid looking. My brother was watching and said "What was that?" when it didn't kill him. Pissed me off too because it was CTF.

Red is not overpowered.
The reason red breaks through defenses is because it is supposed to have more "power" behind it. Ever seen a cannon ball? It moves MUCH more slowly than a bullet, but it is MUCH more powerful, I.E. it has more power behind it.
The reason red does more damage is because it stays in the body longer, it's a big sword of plasma or whatever (whatever it is it has to be hot, it cauterizes the wounds). To prove this point, pass your hand through a candle, fast. No pain right? Now hold your hand in the candle for 10 seconds. Which hurt more?

Master William
10-31-2003, 08:00 PM
I don't know about you guys, but on the server I play on, one single red swing and anyone dies. By the way, I've been quite dizzy today, I didn't mean ''The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings don't mean strong blows.'' I meant ''The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings doesn't necessarily mean that it is a strong blow. Unrealistic. And people say JA is realistic. My opinion: sacrifice realism for gameplay.

Sam Fisher
10-31-2003, 10:48 PM
Strong is only powerful if you know how to use it.

I have become very adept at using it, and usually kill 15 people to 3-4 deaths. Sure staff/duel is flashy, but is it worh it?

Comm539
10-31-2003, 11:15 PM
The only problems I see are the almost random hit and block physics. The line isn't set in stone. For example, if you were to saber swing, you should be left open to attack. Although this should be the case, often counter swings are blocked for no reason or just 'miss'.
Other times, when you're not attacking, you should be safe from most swings (although not red down hacks or double swings etc.), however, sometimes you just take damage from shots that should have been blocked.
The physics basically need standardising. So you can say: If a happens, b should always happen. At the moment thats not the case.
This is a major reason why duelling can be lost or won almost randomly.


Obviously, I also think duel and staff should have combo limits. They have twice the firepower (2 sabers), no need for 14 points of force and unlimited combo's when compared to single sabers. This means that a player can simply 'hold down attack' whilst trying to bump into someone. Maybe you find this fun, i dunno...I don't.
This is where my opinion that duel and staff require much less timing, strategy (from swing slelection) and avoidance than single sabers (althoguh they naturally require some of the above, no where near as much).


Finally, Slapnut, your view has to be the most uninformed and ludicrous i've read so far. To say moves are 'unpredictable' is just plain stupid...you think duellers just win by 'luck'? And as for 'awesome swings' of fast styles...well i'm just gonna stop before i start insulting people again.

Luc Solar
10-31-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Master William
I don't know about you guys, but on the server I play on, one single red swing and anyone dies.

What's the saberdamagescale on that server? If it's set to 3, you'll surely kill anyone you hit with a red stance swing...

Jahs
11-01-2003, 01:32 PM
Well, personally I think that the easiest opponent I could get in a duel is a strong-stancer. They're just too predictable. I'd have a harder time against a worse player using fast stance. But maybe that's just me ;)

Comm539
11-01-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Jahs
Well, personally I think that the easiest opponent I could get in a duel is a strong-stancer. They're just too predictable. I'd have a harder time against a worse player using fast stance. But maybe that's just me ;)


Yes you're right, thats just you.

eniaC
11-01-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Jahs
Well, personally I think that the easiest opponent I could get in a duel is a strong-stancer. They're just too predictable. I'd have a harder time against a worse player using fast stance. But maybe that's just me ;) :eyeraise:

DarthCobra
11-03-2003, 01:35 AM
I can't even belive there's a thread discussing this.

NO THE RED STANCE ISNT TOO STRONG!
YES THE STAFF IS WAY TOO FN STRONG!

If we're gonna debate imbalances lets talk about the new sabers, an how much the single has been wrecked compared to jk2. We have a worthless red an yellow dfa now, the lunge has been overpowered to a one hit kill. The saber damage on that server must be 3 or something. I find it almost impossible to kill anyone with one red swing, where in jk2 most ppl died from 2 good hits. I can hit all 3 hits of a red combo an still have a person standing ... Taking 2-3 hits to finish the job.

DO WE THINK RED STANCE IS TOO STRONG!

what a crock..

Kurgan
11-03-2003, 02:54 AM
My comment about "you are wrong..." was directed at Blood Riot. He's the one who said that single saber didn't have unlimited chainable moves (though Comm539's comments lead me to believe he also thinks that Single lacked unlimited chainable combos).

In any case, sorry for any confusion there.

Do I think Red (Strong) stance is too strong? No. Do I think it's too weak? No.

The fact is, the Single Saber is a combination of the three stances, not just one of the three that you're forced to use exclusively (unless you want to be stuck with Fast, in which case you only gave yourself Saber Attack Level 1, which is your own fault!).

But some people act as if once you choose a stance you have to use that and only that forever. I swap stances all the time in battle to do the different moves or to confuse my opponent. I think that's what Raven intended for you to do anyway.

Also, there's the old "two handed back slash" that does extra damage move... that works for Strong and Medium Stance.

Haven't tried to see what the combination does for the other sabers yet...


I think the issue we're really getting at with all this is the endless debate started by the old school (ie: JK2) single saber purists fearing that Dual Sabers/Saberstaff "takes no skill" and will "own" their perfected styles they've been working on since JK2.

I don't think that needs to be a concern. Just learn the new moves and you'll be fine. But it would be advantageous to learn the other saber types too, so you know what to expect from opponents, because face it... they're available and people are going to use them, whether you want them to or not.

Others may disagree, that's fine, but Raven intended for us to use saberdamagescale 2 (outside of Duels, but there I prefer shorter duels anyway) and I find it's well balanced. I don't think Duals or Saberstaff are too strong or too weak either, but, as Goldilocks would say of the baby bear's pourriage... "just right." ; )

DarthCobra
11-03-2003, 03:19 AM
Well I wasnt acutally gonna debate the new sabers here either. I was just tryin to disagree on the RED STANCE being too strong.

The staff is far too strong.. Takes little skill to weild and is generally over spammed by EVERYONE! Now I'm not sayin that its not weilded by skilled players or skillfully. But it can kill at random from little bumps an short swings. I dont think the double sabers are as bad, but they do seems to kill ppl randomly often. In J0 1.02 there was a problem with the heavy saber that would cause it to do insane amounts of damage to others from simply gettin poked in the back without even a swing.. And swings killing entirely too easily. I think they've found this same problem with the staff, an partially with the doubles. All I can say is that i desperately hope this is fix'd, not because I cannot handle the new sabers or their moves, but because hardly anyone else can. While a good solution would be to teach everyone HOW TO STOP THIS CRAP! But well.. thats not gonna happen. So raven just needs to fix these new broken sabers a little, then we can all get serious about this game.

KaiaSowapit
11-03-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by DarthCobra
what a crock..
Wait a second... you assert that the lunge has been 'overpowered' to be a 'one-hit kill,' yet you 'find it almost impossible' to kill anyone with one red swing?

Sounds to me like you need to start using lunge more. ;)

Honestly, why not complain you don't like the shade of green they chose for Twi'leks while you're at it?

DarthCobra
11-03-2003, 05:01 AM
My complaint was that someone acutally had the nerv to start a thread about the red stance being too strong.

I've seen some pretty stupid threads. But this is one of the stupidest topics yet.

Kurgan
11-03-2003, 05:11 AM
Well the thing is, "spamming" is subjective. Theoretically you can't really spam any special move because you don't have unlimited mana (unless of course the server de facto gave that to you by setting the regen time to 0).

Just because people like to use Staff and Duals doesn't mean they are bad or should be nerfed or toned down.

Again, it sounds like another single saber JK2 purist wishing to go back to the "good old days" before the Darth Maul wannabe's took over. Sorry pal but you can't turn back the clock! (if that was an unfair criticism, I apologize).

Even back in the JK2 days people were desperate for mods that added dual sabers and the saberstaff, and don't tell me those were perfectly balanced!

The fact is the Staff DOES take skill to use. How many people have you seen jump around and miss every single one of their butterflies and katas? I've seen plenty. They're pathetically easy to kill. If you are dying from random swings, check your strategy.

I like saberdamagescale 2 because ALL swings have the potential to be deadly. The trick is to block and dodge better. And the moves are still useful because they require different timing, have different speeds, blocks/counters, etc. and use different amounts of mana (or none at all).

The most powerful move for the Dual Sabers, the "Saber Barrier" is one of the easiest moves to counter in the entire game. And both the Saberstaff and Dual sabers have twirls, which leave you far more open to attack for a longer period than any special move or kata the single sabers have. Those long drawn out animations are easy to predict and thus easy to counter if you know what you're doing. The single saber moves are usually quicker and leave less openings. They may not be as big on combos (except Fast stance), but they have other strengths and weaknesses.

I'm a veteran of the JK1/MotS days, when saber swings killed in 1-2 hits and nobody complained about it (well, very very few).

So in my mind, I think that's the way it SHOULD be, and Raven just happens to agree with me (at least in non-Duels), which is cool too.

DarthCobra
11-03-2003, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by DarthCobra
The staff is far too strong.. Takes little skill to weild and is generally over spammed by EVERYONE! Now I'm not sayin that its not weilded by skilled players or skillfully. But it can kill at random from little bumps an short swings.

Im not against 1-2 hit kills. But I am for balance. And Im gonna stick to my it takes little skill to weild the staff. And i hated them in jk2 mods also. I use the double an the staff often, but i prefer single as it has the most control. You guys always get so darn wordy in these threads, and im not one to try to be makin speeches. THE NEW SABERS ARE BROKE!! PERIOD!!! I DO NOT FEAR THEM! That doesnt change the fact that they need fix'n an this thread is about "is the red stance to FN strong".

And I am a jk2 vet but a "purist" i think not. Ill go play jk2 if i want jk2. This game is much more of a addon then a new game with most of jk2 intact. So the comparisons an wishing for gameplay to be the same should be expected. What I didnt expect. Was for them to add these new sabers so horribly unbalanced as to make the single the least used saber. And to have a thread here about whether or not the SINGLE RED STANCE IS TO STRONG!


END RANT!
I'm sorry i said anything at all as usal.

KaiaSowapit
11-03-2003, 10:07 AM
DarthCobra, it might help if you avoided blanket statements.
Originally posted by DarthCobra
THE NEW SABERS ARE BROKE!! PERIOD!!!
That's not a fact, it's an opinion (one clearly not shared by everyone), and typing it all in caps doesn't make your point of view more valid than those who disagree with you.
That doesnt change the fact that they need fix'n an this thread is about "is the red stance to FN strong".
Actually the thread is about whether or not people think red stance is too strong, though you are correct that complaining about the other saber types is off topic.
What I didnt expect. Was for them to add these new sabers so horribly unbalanced as to make the single the least used saber.
I'm assuming this was intended to be one contiguous sentence. Again I'm at a loss... you state that you're "not against 1-2 hit kills" but earlier you claimed that the lunge has been 'overpowered' to be a 'one-hit kill.' You also assert (complain) that the staff (and I presume dual sabers as well) require little skill to use. Are you implying that the lunge is difficult to perform?

You prefer the single saber "as it has the most control" - does that not imply the staff and dual sabers have less control? Funny, I would assume a style that has less control would be harder to use effectively - thus requiring more skill.

Frankly, between all the misspellings, sloppy punctuation, poor grammar and obvious hostility in your postings, it's hard to take you very seriously. Comments like, "this is one of the stupidest topics yet" is not only pointless, but needlessly offensive. You come across as an immature person, simply upset that Jedi Academy isn't exactly like Outcast.
raven just needs to fix these new broken sabers a little, then we can all get serious about this game
Maybe you need to get less serious about this game? Seriously, it's not worth working up a hissy fit over. :)

KaiaSowapit
11-03-2003, 10:35 AM
Erm... missed your comment earlier babywax regarding the cannonball analogy. My only retort... (um, never mind that a cannonball has about 500 times the mass of a bullet) just suppose you had a cannonball traveling at a bullet's velocity... you're not going to insist it should be less effective at breaking defenses than a slower moving (normal) cannonball?

Your candle analogy made more sense, though personally I wouldn't want a light saber stuck into my body for a split second any more than I would ten seconds. :)

BloodRiot
11-03-2003, 11:34 AM
Kurgan yes u are right...i stand corrected.

My point was the sabers in my pov are not perfect but the balance is not that bad either.

Either way it's old news and this thread is about singel saber red stance. I can't really say it's overpowered... it IS indeed a high damage stance but i've seen the same move cause from a 1 hit 100 dmg kill to just a 1 dmg graze.

I can understand the frustration with the vertical swing that connected through all the opponent's body as it's the move i've seen taking more damage in one strike... which only makes my previous point even more valid.

I dont know wether it's the saber collision configs or the high ping that causes such discrepancies. Either way... no one can claim the red stance is overpowered... and IF you want to bring other sabertypes into this topic, all others have high, AND I MEAN HIGH, damage output but usually at a higher refire rate.

One can also debate on why the slower strike means more damage, in the end, there is no realisitc explanation envolving physics that WILL actually explain the slow being stronger cuz imo, the only reason red is slower is to try to balance things.

The greatest advantage single saber has is the versility and the wide range of moves available to it, so keeping the red slower like it was in JO is just a way to make the single has it's cons.

If you wanted to go into physics on this one... sure put red damage on blue speed... makes sense right? but imagine gameplay balance... no so good right?

Staff deals good damage but has less moves and versility than single... so single has a slower swing for red stance to balance things out. <---- just an example explanation.

My conclusion: Red Stance NOT overpowered.

Master William
11-03-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by DarthCobra
My complaint was that someone acutally had the nerv to start a thread about the red stance being too strong.

I've seen some pretty stupid threads. But this is one of the stupidest topics yet.

Can you and your rude flames leave this thread? if you think it is stupid, why discuss?

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

tunafish
11-03-2003, 07:46 PM
I do not think red is too strong, nor do I think dual or staff are too strong. It honestly seems well balanced to me because there is not one game I have entered yet, where single, dual, or staff is the absolute dominant stance. When I first started playing JA I thought one particular style would be the one everyone used. Much to my suprise though, there is a nice variety of the stlyes on multiplayer. But red seems to be favored when it comes to single saber stances for more skilled players. Not that yellow or blue are ignored by any means.

Akshara
11-03-2003, 08:19 PM
Strong in this thread the Dark Side is...

Master William
11-03-2003, 08:43 PM
I'm just saying the red swings are a bit too powerful sometimes. But never mind, there are alot of counters that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

Darth Cobra, we get it, the thread sux0rz bla bla it is the worst you've seen, bla bla bla

If you haven't got any real comments (yep, all your posts so far are mostly off topic) then please leave.

Akshara
11-03-2003, 08:45 PM
What's really hilarious is there's a guy in a thread right next to this one who's asking why the Staff and Dual are so much more powerful than the Single. LOL.

Prime
11-03-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Master William
I'm just saying the red swings are a bit too powerful sometimes. And I'm saying it's not :)

Master William
11-03-2003, 09:46 PM
But I say it is :)

Your point being... ? :confused:

Sam Fisher
11-03-2003, 09:52 PM
Your point being... ?

That you both have a different point of view :D

IMO, strong has been weakened, however slightly, ao you cn't kill in one shot. Unless its a server where saber damage has been increased.

Dance Commander
11-03-2003, 09:54 PM
And the point is...who cares anymore?

Just wait til a patch is released. Once Raven has adjusted the sabers, all this will have been pointless.

Akshara
11-03-2003, 09:56 PM
Your point being... ?
Um... MW... the point being the topic of the thread? I mean you did ask a question to the community... and many think the Red Stance isn't too strong. So it appears that you are soliciting only those comments which agree with you...?

SaRGoNNaS
11-03-2003, 10:05 PM
Has anyone checked out bwn servers. We have worked settings out that balance the issues with staff and single...the dmg is a bit toned down..but still quite effective...red kills in 2-4 hits depending on how much is blocked (the blocking has been turned up..and butterfly can actually be blocked on the first attack..but its still a bad idea to stand and try to brunt a butterfly attk)

Basically..check out the BWN servers....the moves are actually pretty balanced across all the sabers. Tho u gotta get used to blocks...as sabers tend to block when another saber hits it.

but on the topic, red stance is pretty well balanced...if you miss yer dead...and if u try on bwn servers...the staff dmg is lessened....(even tho it shouldnt be but it helps single users out) cuz people always complain bout the staff side swings doing too much...now it takes more...double sabers still ahve the insane raven created defence but do less dmg so that u might be able to get enuf clips in with a staff or just plain break thru that crap with red swings.

red swings take long but go through defence...as it should for something u have to wait so bloodly long for. Also with bwn settings medium and fast stances tend to be more useful. I suggest all those who have complaints bout staff and duals as beeing n00b weapons check out bwn settings... u really have to work to win with those now. agh..im too tired to hold a coherent thought...but give it a try u might like it.

DarthCobra
11-03-2003, 10:43 PM
As if damage isnt too low on duel servers already.

BWN drops it to like .65 or .45 which makes duels insanly long.
If anything it should be turned up. When you compare say FFA saber challenges to duel server damage, I think you'll find it alot different. Turning it down is just stupid. Fix'n the overpowered new sabers by lowering overall damage is not a solution.

I'm gonna agree that this will all be pointless when the patch is released.

And there will be a patch...... I have foreseen it..

babywax
11-03-2003, 11:08 PM
Others may disagree, that's fine, but Raven intended for us to use saberdamagescale 2 (outside of Duels, but there I prefer shorter duels anyway) and I find it's well balanced. I don't think Duals or Saberstaff are too strong or too weak either, but, as Goldilocks would say of the baby bear's pourriage... "just right." ; )

If Raven intended for us to use saberdamagescale 2 then why didn't they just up the damage to be equal to that, or make the server default to that? I find that pretty silly ;)


Erm... missed your comment earlier babywax regarding the cannonball analogy. My only retort... (um, never mind that a cannonball has about 500 times the mass of a bullet) just suppose you had a cannonball traveling at a bullet's velocity... you're not going to insist it should be less effective at breaking defenses than a slower moving (normal) cannonball?

Your candle analogy made more sense, though personally I wouldn't want a light saber stuck into my body for a split second any more than I would ten seconds.

I was a little tired when I wrote the cannon ball analogy, so I didn't exactly word it correctly. If you were to make the cannon ball go the same speed, but use the same amount of gun powder, it would not have much force behind it, and it would stop when it hit something (although against humans it would probably still be equally effective, thanks to our friend inertia).


Let me put forward a new analogy: Light. It is generally thought of as a particle, now these particles stop when they hit anything you and I consider solid. Yet they travel at the maximum known speed limit in the universe. The reason they stop is because they have no force behind them. If you throw a pebble at someone with all your force, then it probably won't hurt them too badly, however, if you pick up a fairly large rock and use the same force, it will travel more slowly but if it hits them it will hurt them much more. This is because less force is converted to speed, and more into power.


I agree with cobra on a few things, I also do not mind 1-2 hit kills. The argument kaia put forward against him:

I'm assuming this was intended to be one contiguous sentence. Again I'm at a loss... you state that you're "not against 1-2 hit kills" but earlier you claimed that the lunge has been 'overpowered' to be a 'one-hit kill.' You also assert (complain) that the staff (and I presume dual sabers as well) require little skill to use. Are you implying that the lunge is difficult to perform?

The problem is that lunge is overpowered, COMPARED to other swings. We are speaking in relative terms here, lunge is much faster than a red swing yet it does like 2x the damage, so it is overpowered. Sure, it should do a little extra damage thanks to it being a special move, but not 2x. Maybe 1.5x or so, but right now lunge is overpowered. Butterfly, has no pause time after you complete the move, that is the main problem with it, it is very difficult to counter, try lunging against it at any point during the butterfly, you will get massacred. Try a 'duck twirly move' with duals or staff, you will get massacred.

I agree with kurgan however that the sabers are well balanced at 2x saber scale, so I hope that in the patch Raven will put things the way they themselves have said they intended the game to be played. Let duel servers lower saber damage, instead of FFA servers raise it. There are MANY more FFA servers than there are duel servers.

Kurgan
11-03-2003, 11:09 PM
Raven recommends 1 for duels, 2 for non duels. Frankly I think that's just about right, though I use 2 for duels as well as many of you know since I've said it so many times.

Frankly I think having super long duels is a bad idea, because it means longer for the people in line to wait. If both players are good the duel can last a loooong time even if the sabers are always 1 hit kills. It's called blocking and dodging...


PS: No more outbursts of flaming please. I deleted one comment already, just keep it civil, and realize that everybody has their opinion.


I agree with kurgan however that the sabers are well balanced at 2x saber scale, so I hope that in the patch Raven will put things the way they themselves have said they intended the game to be played. Let duel servers lower saber damage, instead of FFA servers raise it. There are MANY more FFA servers than there are duel servers.

Here's the problem with that. You're assuming that admins are too stupid to change the saberdamagescale cvar (maybe they are.. though I'd prefer to call them simply uninformed, not stupid). While many admins do seem to still be learning what commands work (note the high number of whines associated with people banning only Lightning and having zero force regen time + spamming moves) best, I don't think asking Raven to make the patch simply switch the default setting is really going to help.

The fact is, the admins who are changing their settings are getting whined at (interestingly enough nobody has ever whined at me that my settings are "off" although I have had people beg me to lower the gravity before, lol and just so you know I keep it at the default setting). If the patch makes saberdamagescale 2 the default they will just change it back to .064 or whatever they were using before.

So that would make no difference at all. The trouble is people who join those servers don't realize that things are changed and they assume that sabers either do random damage or they are "nerfed" because they don't understand that cvars are being used.

So the best way to solve this problem will simply be to train people to look at the cvar settings before they join and understand what they mean, and to inform admins what cvars tend to be more balanced and fun (though we can't force them to do it our way, only inform them so they can make better decisions).

Dethsaint
11-03-2003, 11:14 PM
I find the Red stance trés bon as it is now. From what I've seen a skilled saberist with Red stance can take both staff and dual down on a pretty much 1:1 basis if not at a better ratio.

As for the staff damage and dual damage it might be a bit high when combined with their better defence rating, but I still find the system pretty balanced if you I don't consider the random block and damage percentages in the equation.

And that is my opinion.

Better they fixed all the minor bugs instead like the "odd" saberlocks and other more annoying stuff instead of "whiner" issues.

Now you will all bow to me because I am right!

If not I'll continue to whine and troll and be immature until you comply... :rolleyes:

SpDTheadkeFor
11-04-2003, 01:23 AM
When i first played JKA on default NF duel settings it basically seemed that when you hit someone while using staff or duels, it would do little to no damage or an be an instant kill, with very little inbetween. This was probably due to those types of sabers attack parrying abilities combined with the randomness of Ghoul2.

If you play on the BWN servers, I would tend to say that the stances are fairly balanced. The reason for this is not so much because the damage is turned down, but because the Ghoul2 collision detection has been turned off. When Ghoul2 is turned on, it makes damage from duel and staff sabers much more random.

BWN also lowers the damage, but this infact doesnt make duels last longer, it makes them last just about the right time. The reason being swings, parries and damage are more predictable. A guy doesn't have to worry as much about getting killed with one hit because its less likely to happen and the results of the player and his oppents actions are much more predictable, so they fight more aggressivly instead of being defensive. And the more agressive the fights, the faster they go.

Hopefully most NF duel servers will adopt the BWN settings, because I doubt Raven will adjust them for a patch.

Prime
11-04-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by DarthCobra
And there will be a patch...... I have foreseen it.. The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is...

AxVegetA
11-04-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
PS: No more outbursts of flaming please. I deleted one comment already, just keep it civil, and realize that everybody has their opinion.


Did u deleted my post? i dont remember if i posted here or not :p

shukrallah
11-04-2003, 01:41 AM
Red stance is supposed to strong....
Its slow
It cant block good
The only thing left is attack, so they might as well boost it up


So yeah, its supposed to strong... it cant swing fast, cant block too good, its no good during a large battle against multiple opponents, so obviously, no defense, no speed, the only thing left is attack... so its bad in every other area, it might as well be high in attack.

If you get lots of kills with it, then be HAPPY! your winning! Normally you hear people crying "red stance is too strong, and i cant win" now i hear "red stance is too strong, i keep winning"

Learn to dodge better against people who spam it. Stop complaining about the game, its the way its supposed to be. If you want it different then learn to code, and change it yourself :)

KaiaSowapit
11-04-2003, 01:43 AM
If you were to make the cannon ball go the same speed, but use the same amount of gun powder, it would not have much force behind it, and it would stop when it hit something...
Assuming everything is equal (cannonball mass, air resistance, etc.), how would you make a cannonball go faster with the same amount of gun powder? Magic?

As for visible light, it is also considered a waveform; part of the electromagnetic spectrum. If I hit you with a burst of microwaves... well you get the idea. :)
If you throw a pebble at someone with all your force, then it probably won't hurt them too badly, however, if you pick up a fairly large rock and use the same force, it will travel more slowly but if it hits them it will hurt them much more.
This is because they differ in mass. Granted light sabers are pure fiction and derived from the imagination of George Lucas, yet I'm gonna go out on a limb here and presume they maintain the same mass no matter how hard/fast you swing them.

Let's try another example. Imagine I swing a baseball bat at you; let's say at or below 1 mph. Unless you had your eyes closed (or have the world's worst reflexes), you should be able to block/avoid it without much difficulty. Now imagine I take the same bat and swing it at you, say at 500 mph... I think it's safe to assume you'd have a much harder time blocking that swing. I also think it's safe to assume a bat swung at 500 mph would smart a bit more if it hit you.

But I'm just an amateur physicist at best. What do I know? ;)

If you want to argue that sabers behave the way they do in Outcast/Academy solely for the sake of game balance, I'd agree. But if you rather insist it's logical and relates to known, real-world laws of physics, I'd have to disagree. Nothing personal. :)
The problem is that lunge is overpowered, COMPARED to other swings. We are speaking in relative terms here, lunge is much faster than a red swing yet it does like 2x the damage, so it is overpowered.
If we're talking game balance, then there are other factors besides speed and damage to take into consideration. There's ease of use, force consumption, block-breaking ability (as well as blocking ability), and whether or not the player has any movement restrictions.

That said, I haven't personally played every saber type/stance in every conceivable situation or game environment. I can't say with any authority how well each and every swing is balanced as a whole.

What I can say, from personal observation, is there's at least one regular (returning guest/client) on my server who usually dominates (often by a factor of 2 to 1). His preference of saber is single; his favorite stance is red. Clearly he's doing something right. And I can tell you from personal experience he isn't relying on katas or Force powers to get there. Those who know him, also know he uses a joystick (rather than a mouse) and is legally blind. Go figure?

babywax
11-04-2003, 06:32 AM
He uses a joystick? He's legally blind? He must be REALLY good to still be able to play lol...

On your server (I've played there a couple times, you can see my post in that thread CortoCG made, about fun MP times or something like that) you can see I got 100 kills in 15 minutes. It's not that hard in raised saber damage (I always use single).



Leave it to me to try to explain physics to a physicist :p

I'm not explaining myself correctly, most of my analogies have been badly concieved... I think I've probably been proven wrong about 3 times too and I'm just not bright enough to see it hah

I think I'll concied that argument, you've proven me wrong. However, I still don't believe that speed equates to force/power, many things that go very fast do not have power behind them, and will stop upon hitting me. Although, things that go fast can have a lot of inertia involved, and can be very hard to stop, depending on their mass. Now, if this sword is a blade of energy, or light (which for some reason stops?) or plasma(contained by magnets, that for some reason don't have any affect on near by metal?), then it should have very little mass, and as such very little inertia. The force comes completely from the human behind it.

Now, I've seen people who can kick a soccer ball very fast with their leg, but the ball doesn't go fast or far. It depends on the force put behind it, how much of your weight and power you transfer to the ball. I have seen people who kick it much more slowly than most (no, not as slow as the ridiculously slow red swing) and can really smack it.
I have lost my train of thought, so I'll leave off where you did, let's just call it "balance." :)

Kurgan:

So that would make no difference at all. The trouble is people who join those servers don't realize that things are changed and they assume that sabers either do random damage or they are "nerfed" because they don't understand that cvars are being used.

I think it would make a very large difference. Due to their "uninformed state" (hehe) many admins don't change cvars, or hardly any besides gameplay, map etc...
So, the majority of servers would keep the default settings.

It matters a whole lot what the default settings are, when you get the game the default settings are what the game is set to. When you start a server, the game needs to be balanced right when you get into it, it shouldn't require you to change one console command.
I personally think the game is not balanced at saberdamagescale 1, I think staff does far too much damage on normal swings, and the butterfly is overpowered(it's better than the staff kata for crying out loud, for 25 less force power). As for dual sabers and single, well I think they fit very well together. Blue is a little under powered (except for lunge), and the DFAs are also horribly nerfed. I don't want them to be one hit kills, but right now they are almost impossible to hit with. Red DFA in my experience does less damage than a normal red slash, I've landed a red DFA on someone and done less than 30 damage (keeping the saber in them the whole time too).
But other than that I like the balance, although I do not have much experience with dual sabers.

KaiaSowapit
11-04-2003, 09:45 AM
My only real point was that (in my opinion) a saber should never "magically" pass through another saber - no matter what style or stance you're using. Whether I'm standing still or flailing about like a madman, if your saber collides with mine before touching any part of my person, your attack should be negated.

Whether the game's engine is sophisticated enough for that level of collision detection, or whether or not it would make for good/fun/balanced gameplay is another issue. It just bugs me. :P

Personally I'd rather all sabers/stances had equal damage/blocking - that their only differences were cosmetic (eye candy). Perhaps that would be the greatest thing; perhaps it would be boring as hell. At the very least, it would put an end to all these threads about such-and-such being "nerfed" or "imbalanced."

To put it another way, no one ever asks what stance you were using when you nail them with the concussion rifle. :)

*Sigh* - Kurgan is right... it is an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community.

Master William
11-04-2003, 11:34 AM
I have no problem with red stance, except for duels (where the saberdamagescale is changed) when you have a hard time hiding from all the side swings, I kept winning and winning with the single saber.

I want more blocking, because every side swing seems to hit pretty easy, even if you are not very close to it.

Forget it about red stance being too powerful, I want more blocking ;)

Akshara, I was saying ''Your point being... ?'' because I thought he had a point with the post (other than that he has his own opinion). But I guess that was his point with the post, it was his own opinion.

EDIT: Yes, KaiaSowapit, that's a better idea aswell, and you are totally right. It's annoying how the cores/sabers just go through each other like nothing, it should be like with the saber locks, now THOSE are interesting (I just love them in JA) ;)

Jaden007
11-04-2003, 12:47 PM
i think that the RED stance is perfect as they say "timing is everything" it does give alot of damage but you can die in saberlocks easier i wish you would stop complaining:rolleyes:

Master William
11-04-2003, 01:26 PM
If you read my posts, I am not complaining, I in fact don't care anymore seeing as I found alot of counters, I just thought that you could kill anyone too easy, especially in duels. Now I don't anymore ;)

Darth_Pnut
11-04-2003, 02:35 PM
If your winning from side swing alone I'm guessing the saber dam. is way up on your server, or your enemies are not very good. Either way, red stance is fine in unchanged servers. In other words, if I make a game right now, and enter no counsol commands and me and some people played, red stance would not be pwnage, or anything. It would be ballanced.

Also I've heard people saying lundge is unbalanced. Indeed, it is but that is to make up for blue's otherwise usless state. Other than quick strikes to finish off the enemy, blue is usless IMO. Even if you do use blue as a finisher if ends up killing me off more than killing my enemy off, so I might as well just stick with red.

Yellow is close to blue in effectiveness, for me anyway.

Also the staff and dual, randomness thing needs to be fixed. Is it realistic that I cut my enemy strait in half (red swing) but they don't die, well no. It's more unrealistic to have a person dancing about (staff butterfly) and barely touch me and I die......and I think this is a randomness bug, and it should be fixed...

Anyway, I'm out,
D_P

PS. this was all opinion

w00ki3
11-04-2003, 05:18 PM
Change your style whilst in a saber lock. I dont think you are more damaged with red stance in a lock anyway though.

If your winning by side swing alone, then indeed your fighting poor opponents.

The hit and block detection is way off anyway. Most hits should be blocked and most blocked should be hits. Its stupid playing a game with no defining rules. This is another reason why you may win/loose a lot.

Red stance is fine. Its the duel and staff that needs a limit to stop random spamming. (And due to terrible block detect red stance is normally blocked by the guy who is spamming duel sabers at your feet).

This is where the fix is needed.

Kurgan
11-04-2003, 07:47 PM
Did u deleted my post? i dont remember if i posted here or not

No, it was one of Cobra's that I deleted because it was just a flame.

The locational damage can be turned off, is that what's confusing people?

Kurgan
11-04-2003, 07:55 PM
I think it would make a very large difference. Due to their "uninformed state" (hehe) many admins don't change cvars, or hardly any besides gameplay, map etc...
So, the majority of servers would keep the default settings.

I don't think that's correct. IIRC, the last time I checked the majority of JA servers were using some kind of cvar. Now granted they might just be menu options ("no force" "sabers only" etc) but the fact is many many admins know how to change cvars.

They'll just notice the change and switch it back to how they want it. People joinining will be clueless but that's because a lot of them can't or choose not to host and so are less informed about what the commands are and what they do.


As far as the Butterfly being "more powerful" than the katas. They are for different situations!

The Kata is when you're surrounded and want to hit multiple attackers, or you have your opponent cornered (or you have suckered him into a stationary attack and you're about to counter attack). The butterfly flies forward, meaning you have to be heading towards your opponent, otherwise you're flying AWAY from him and won't hit him. Plus you might just fall off a cliff.

Likewise the DFA is not very useful at close range (You'll fly over his head most of the time), but more useful at a longer range, etc.


As I see it, the strength of Strong stance is not that it does lots of damage per se, but that it can knock away other stances (or even knock the saber out of your opponent's hand) and not be knocked away itself. The swings are also more "sweeping" so it's possible to hit more people at once if you timed it correctly (and sweep behind you, etc).


Next time you think you see "randomness" check and see where you hit/were hit (look for the scars) by the swings. Limb hits do very little damage. Even a hit that "cuts off your arm" only connected at your arm at the start of the swing, it may have passed through your head afterward.

The thing is, in JK2 1.04 they made it so that the very start and very end of swings do very little damage, so rather the midpoint was the intention for getting the kill. I don't know if it's the same exact way in JA, but that might be worth investigating. This was done to avoid the complaints of "barely nicking me and I died."


As for "spamming" if you're going to take away the unlimited chains for Dual and Saberstaff, then take away the unlimited chains for Fast single stance, because otherwise you're giving single saberists an unfair advantage.

SpDTheadkeFor
11-04-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
As for "spamming" if you're going to take away the unlimited chains for Dual and Saberstaff, then take away the unlimited chains for Fast single stance, because otherwise you're giving single saberists an unfair advantage.

Ah, um, that was very illogical reasoning. I'll try to explain below.

For Single Saber
- Blue (weakest, unlimited sweeps/spam-swings, fast as snott)
- Yellow (medium, limited to 4 to 5 sweeps/spam-swings, medium speed)
- Red (strongest, limited to 3 swings, no sweeps, slow as hell)

For Staff Saber
- Yellow Single Blade (weakest, limited to 4 to 5 sweeps/spam-swings, medium speed)
- Yellow Full Ignited Staff (strongest, unlimited sweeps/spam-swings, still about medium speed)

For Duel Sabers
- Blue Single Blade (weakest, unlimited sweeps/spam-swings, fast as snott)
- Yellow Both Sabers Ignited (strongest, unlimited sweeps/spam-swings, fast but not quite as fast as snot)

If people can't see the problems and inconsistancies with the information I've listed above then you deserver "1000 punches in the face" and need to look harder. If you've looked harder and still dont see it then read on.

For the single saber its pretty straight forward, you loose spamming ability and speed in exchange for more power and blocking ability. Pretty logical huh?

For the staff saber, well uhh....., you GAIN spamming ability (your speed loss is neglegable) in exchange for more power and blocking ability. Um, what the....:confused:

For the duel sabers, you KEEP spamming ablility (again your speed loss is neglegable) in exchange for more power and blocking ability. :( Are you starting to catch on to my point yet?

Raven apparently threw out all logic when designing these new saber types. Instead of sacrificing something in exchange for something else, you get more when you had less to begin with. If we carry the logic used in the design of the duel and staff over to single sabers, you should be able to swing almost as fast as the medium yellow stance only now with red, and you would have the ablility to spam it endlessly.

Kirgan, the reason your quote makes absolutly no sense is because you were compairing the "strong styles" of the duel and staff sabers to the weakest in blocking and power of all the stances(blue). For goodness sakes, think about that for a second. Blue spamming is almost usless agains duels and staffs and yellow's not much better.

If you follow logic, duels and staff strong styles should be limited to a maximum of 3 to 5 swings. When they have the ability to do as much damage as a single red swing, but have two to three times the speed and parrying ablility, don't you think sacraficing the ablility to endlessly spam is a fair trade when you compare it to the amount of speed and the entire loss of the ability to spam-sweep that the single saber red stance trades for power and blocking ability?

If people can't understand my reasoning, no comment......

Shakey Mac
11-05-2003, 01:55 AM
i think red stance has the perfect balance of power versus risk. a good red-stancer will time his/her moves to take full advantage of the stances capabilities, either by chaining a combo together when their opponent is open, or sticking and moving until their opponent makes a mistake. as for yellow and blue stance, i think those are used less because they are a bit less effective against staffers and dualers, due to high defensive capability on staves and duals.

having said that, i dont think any one saber type is over-powered in any way. the only thing i think is needed (key words: i, think) is a limit on the number of chained attacks a dualist or staffer can do. this would eliminate constant strafing as a viable means of winning and force people to actually use their heads a bit (once again i reiterate that this is my opinion). it might just be me, but seeing two people fight and watching them go side to side repeatedly while crouching just isnt very Star Warsy. never once have i seen a battle in any of the movies (or read one in a comic, book or fan fic) where the two combatants swing their sabers wildly across the Y axis.

so, im summary, red stance = fine. blue and yellow stances = mostly fine, tad bit underpowered. dual and staff sabers = fine except a limit on chained attacks is needed (say, 4-6).


edit: *looks up at SpDTheadkeFor's post*

yeah, i guess thats what i get for not reading the whole thread.

SpDTheadkeFor
11-05-2003, 02:48 AM
LOL ;) I like how you put it into fewer words. I'm like you, I really don't have a problem with duels or staffs other than the fact that they have unlimited chainablility for such powerful swings. If they limit the number of swings it will be a great improvement in the quality of gameplay. Other than that, for me the game is fine if the Ghoul2 hit detection system is disabled, which is the main reason the games annoying randomness. The only other thing I would really like to see ajusted is the ability for blutterflies to be autoblocked. Simply if you aren't swinging, you wont get hit. I believe that would cut down on a lot of the spamming.

BloodRiot
11-05-2003, 01:52 PM
I'm glad certain point are brought up i nthe forums.

I want to start a Duel/PowerDuel server and I'm trying to get a hold on what i want enabled and disabled on my server.

Since we're on the ghoul2 subject... how does it affect the game exactly... enabled and disabled?

Prime
11-05-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by BloodRiot
Since we're on the ghoul2 subject... how does it affect the game exactly... enabled and disabled? If it is anything like it was in JO, the ghoul2 stuff is what is used in SP to determine collision detection. It is much more accurate than MP collision detection, because it does not have to take into account things like lag and whatnot. The downside is that when used in MP it creates more lag. This is why it is off in MP by default, so all those little 56kers can still play the game. For big bandwidth players this shouldn't be too much of a problem. It certainly does improve collision detection (IIRC by using a more accurate collision box around the saber).

In short, ghoul2 cvar 1 is on and has more accurate detection and more lag. Ghoul2 cvar 0 is off and has less accruate detection and less lag.

If it is like JO, that is :)

BloodRiot
11-05-2003, 03:51 PM
I see.. thx Prime.

But people complain that ghoul2 cause too much randomness... that's what i dont quite follow.

So you got location damage and ghoul2.

With both of them on you should get more precise combat. Yet more lag.

So it's either the location damage that makes people wonder why that blow only took 1 hp while the other exact same took 100hp.
Or the increased lag causes gameplay to become choppy on the client.

SpDTheadkeFor
11-05-2003, 10:28 PM
The ghoul2 is more accurate. However, JO and JA multiplayer was designed in a way that more accurate hit detection hurts more than helps. The main reason for this is because JO and JA have sabers. In a first person shooter with only guns, the ghoul2 works great. You point the cross hairs of your gun at someone's head and you are going to blow it off.

Sabers are a much different story. In order to place a hit accurately (right where your cross hairs are pointing) You have to be a certain distance from your target. If your too close, you could be aiming at the guys head but your saber is going to pass through their chest. Seriously, though, go try it out. Get a friend to close down his saber and stand still, then take your saber (preferably a single blade) and aim at his head. Try to hit nail him in the face while you're stand still, and then try it while you strafe around him. Its not easy when your standing still, even harder when your moving! Its almost impossible to intentionally land a head shot when both you and your oppent are running around. Thats the first problem with the ghoul2's hit detection in JA. Very painful hits to the most sensitive area's of you're figures body tend to be more luck than actual skill, this is true for even experienced players. While they might have a better idea of where a swing is going to hit, there is no way to know for sure.

The second problem is JA has auto parrying when you attack(so did JO but Ghoul2 wasn't activated in MP). Basically, when you and your oppent are both swinging at eachother and your blades make contact, your saber will either automatically parry and hit your oppent or your swing will glance off and your oppent with get an auto parry on you. It isn't a garunteed hit, you do have to have your cross hairs close to your oppent, but it happens almost everytime, even if you can't see it. Parries are often so fast that you can't distinguish between them and the normal swings especially with the new staff and duel sabers, I mean blades are already going in every direction. Where this becomes a problem is if you and your oppent are attacking eachother and one of you gets an offensive auto parry where their saber passes through a sensitive region of your body, you are going to take massive amounts of damage if you are using Ghoul2 hit detection. The losers going to walk away wondering how they just got droped from 90 to 0 and the winners going to be wondering how the heck they managed to do it. And its basically the luck of the draw not nessisarly the best man wins.

I feel the randomness of the Ghoul2 lowers the skill level required to do well. In Jedi Outcast, you knew what amount of damage each stance and type of swing would deliver. It was consistant, which allowed people who were better to almost always beat those who weren't as good. In JA with the Ghoul2 activated, the better player will still probably win most of the time, but theres always a good chance some noob will get lucky and knock you off. For those of us who duel competitivley, that is not acceptable. When I beat someone, I want to know I beat them because I'm better than them, not because I lucked out because the game engine handed me the win with a lucky parry or swing. Thats why I don't like DFA's, because in my mind winning by predetermined moves taints the win. I like to be in control and the Ghoul2 hit detection give the game to much control. I like JA when the Ghoul2 is turned of but when its on, JA just pisses me off.

BucMan55
11-06-2003, 01:47 AM
The only problem i have with red stance is in SP mode when playing around fighting 2 or more opponents, you will prolly have half of your deaths result from one or more "counters" due to having 2 blades to cause more contact.....

Very frustrating not even seeing the NPC swing and all of a sudden your glancing blow got you killed. All because he happened to be in red stance and countered you......

Kurgan
11-06-2003, 06:56 AM
Kirgan, the reason your quote makes absolutly no sense is because you were compairing the "strong styles" of the duel and staff sabers to the weakest in blocking and power of all the stances(blue). For goodness sakes, think about that for a second. Blue spamming is almost usless agains duels and staffs and yellow's not much better.

On the contrary, it makes perfect sense.

Or am I only allowed to compare Strong to Dual and Saberstaff stances now? How silly. I have beaten both using Fast Stance alone, so that should qualify me to compare them all I want.

And if you're going to tell me "that doesn't count because those were obviously n00bs" well, I guess I have yet to play a "really good" player who makes everything but Strong spamming useless then... ; )

The fact is, if I don't NEED Strong to win with singles vs. Duals/Staff, that alone shows that the other two stances are NOT useless as claimed or that Strong is overpowered. And you can ask anybody how easy it is to beat Strong users with Fast. I do it all the time... and I'm not even that great of a JA saberist yet!


Ah, um, that was very illogical reasoning. I'll try to explain below.

(*snip stats*)

If people can't see the problems and inconsistancies with the information I've listed above then you deserver "1000 punches in the face" and need to look harder. If you've looked harder and still dont see it then read on.

While you've done an admirable job of trying to sum up the strengths of each saber type, this actually proves nothing. "Power" alone is irrelevant since a fast strike can get "past" a person's defenses and kill them. Thus the people who are arguing on topic are arguing that the Strong Stance is overpowered. The fact is a person can be killed while swinging because they are opening themselves up. Slow swings = longer time defenses are open. Sure if the Strong HITs you you're in big trouble, but if you can slip a slice in they're in big trouble.

And damage isn't a problem either if you use saberdamagescale 2.

Unlimited chainable moves may be helpful but repeating the same move over and over won't guarentee victory. Most of those moves will miss anyway and just make a predictable target to hit. The key is aiming and landing those moves, not, as some say "holding down the attack key and running forward like a crazy man." Some people actually insist that this is the "only way to win" and therefore JA "takes no skill at all" (Ignoring the fact that nothing prevented you from using this exact same strategy in JK2).

Strong stance is easy to beat if you know how. It has its benefits don't get me wrong.. it can "slap away" sabers sometimes, and it can do a lot of damage, but a lot of people miss again because they don't time well enough and so it doesn't help them.


For the single saber its pretty straight forward, you loose spamming ability and speed in exchange for more power and blocking ability. Pretty logical huh?

At first glance, but keep in mind all three stances have katas, rolling stabs and backslash/stabs that are virtually unaffected by those classes of speed/strength.


For the staff saber, well uhh....., you GAIN spamming ability (your speed loss is neglegable) in exchange for more power and blocking ability. Um, what the....

And you have consequently fewer moves and more opportunities to fall into a pattern, thus giving your opponent more opportunities to kill you. More moves = harder to find an opening. That's the strength of single saber. Now you're arguing that Single Saber = weak right? It's a myth, sorry.


For the duel sabers, you KEEP spamming ablility (again your speed loss is neglegable) in exchange for more power and blocking ability. Are you starting to catch on to my point yet?

And again, you lose the variety of moves you have with singles, and fall again into easy to predict patterns. See above.


Raven apparently threw out all logic when designing these new saber types.

Apparently they succeeded in fooling half the people into thinking that Duals or Staff (depends on whom you ask) were "uber" and the other half of thinking that single sabers were "uber."

Apparently the fact that they designed a well rounded combat system just escaped too many people who wanted to instantly pass judgement either in the form of "chastising newbies" (the anti duals/staff faction who think those types are unstoppable) and "forgetting to learn new things" (the people who insist that staff/duals are useless).

Compare the new moves with each saber type, I dare you. Dual Sabers has the pathetically easy to counter wide open, holding-a-sign-that-says-kill-me, Saber Barrier. It also has a slow, easy to miss with flying attack, and finally a "please-stab-me-in-the-back-while-I-can't-move" twirl. Likewise with the Staff you have some slow kicks, a twirl that leaves your back exposed for an extended period, a flipping attack with even more open spots (aka the "watch newbie fly off a cliff" move) and a Kata that starts off really slowly and is as predictable as Old Faithful.

Put that up against the Single Saber which has Katas that can be spun and leave almost zero openings (compared to their Dual/Staff counterparts anyway) and special moves that are QUICK and EASY to hit with (except perhaps the DFA, but that just takes skill... then again is the DFA any harder to hit with than the dashing forward saber spins of the other two saber types?).


Instead of sacrificing something in exchange for something else, you get more when you had less to begin with. If we carry the logic used in the design of the duel and staff over to single sabers, you should be able to swing almost as fast as the medium yellow stance only now with red, and you would have the ablility to spam it endlessly.

No. You're forgetting the sheer number of different moves you have with the single saber. Stop thinking of the Singles as three different sabers. Instead think of it as one weapon with a bunch of moves. Sure switching stances mid-combo isn't very realistic, but the fact is you have them at your disposal. The "nerfed" stances available to the Duals/Staff aren't that useful in MP I've found, except as a desperate attempt to fool an enemy who is on to all of your moves (though I suppose it could be useful for servers with Friendly Fire enabled, in order to not kill your teammates all the time).

If you're arguing that single sabers are weak, well this just helps my point, because all along I've been arguing that the saber types are well balanced.

If you are arguing that Duals/Staff > Single and the other half of the people are arguing the opposite, maybe you're both right after all. Nobody can agree that one saber style/type is supreme...

babywax
11-06-2003, 07:06 AM
I think they should have made all 3 stances available for duals and staff, it would have made more sense...

SpDTheadkeFor
11-06-2003, 08:54 AM
LOL, I'm not really saying any one saber is overpowered, I think they are all fairly balanced except for the fact that you can endlessly chain with staff and duel.

I'm a NF dueler, which might be why we never can see eye to eye. To me every stance whether it be in staff, duels, or single, with the exception of red single saber has the exact same basic moves, and even red has them, they're just really slow. For example, you move forward and strafe left at the same time, your saber swing will slash diagonally from top to bottom. If you move backwards and strafe left your swing will slash diagonally from bottom to top.

Anyway, thats what I think about as "moves." With each saber type and stance you can do the same moves, only the power, speed and blocking ablility differ. I don't consider "moves" to include katas or dfas, because where I fight, if you try a dfa or kata, you will regret it. To me those moves are useless and are never to be used. Butterflies, which I wouldn't have a problem with except for the fact that they are unblockable, blue lunge, and roll stab are the only "specials" I ever consider using, and even roll stab is pushing it.

Single saber may have more "specials" than the duel or staff, but my analysis about speed, power, blocking and spam ability is right on, at least from a NF duelers point of view.

Perhaps its because you use saberdamagescale 2 combined with the Ghoul2 hit detection that allowed you to beat a staff or duels weilder with blue. But any really, really good NF dueler who uses a single, would tell you blue stance is useless against staff or duels because of their defensive and parrying ablilities. If you go one on one, single vs. duel or staff, in a sweeping match the duels and staff will win every time, unless you get really friggin lucky, which I imagine is possible with saberdamagescale 2 and Ghoul2.

I really can't judge being I have never seen you play, but basing it on your comments alone (and I don't mean to be rude or cocky) I doubt you that good a 1 on 1 duels. I could be totally wrong too, but I would never know until I actually saw you play. I really don't play much now, more because of school :mad: but I would encourage you to go to a BWN server, preferably Masters or SDF, and fight some of the guys in those clans. Granted, the server settings are probably different then what you're used to, but I think that fighting guys who are as good them might help you see my side of the argument.

I still don't understand why you oppose limiting the number of chain/spam-moves to 5 or 6 with the duel or staff. It would really improve the gameplay not hurt it. I mean think about it, when you have a staff, and you use it with a single blade, the game limits your to 5 spam-swings max. But when you ignite the entire saber, you get unlimited swings with double the power and blocking with the same speed. That just doesn't make sense.

Master William
11-06-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by babywax
I think they should have made all 3 stances available for duals and staff, it would have made more sense...

Wouldn't the single saber be useless then?

babywax
11-06-2003, 12:57 PM
No, not if they made duals have horrible defense, and staff have horrible offense. They would be specialized, and single would be all around good.

Master William
11-06-2003, 01:12 PM
Well that would just screw everything up, each saber must be an all-around based weapon, not like ''If you want a good shield, pick Staff, if you want a good slayer, pick Dual Sabers'' etc.

babywax
11-06-2003, 01:24 PM
?? Why?

SpDTheadkeFor
11-06-2003, 03:25 PM
I'm going with William on this. Giving duels and staff 3 different stances would really jack up the balance. They are already as balanced as they can get, minus the tweaks I have mentioned above. Raven was wise in limiting the duels and staff to 2 stances each, I'm sure a lot of thought went into that decision.

Prime
11-06-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by BloodRiot
But people complain that ghoul2 cause too much randomness... that's what i dont quite follow. That may be due to the fact that lag probably causes more problems for Ghoul2, since it was not designed with lag issues in mind. My theory is that since the collision box with Ghoul2 is more precise for the saber (and perhaps the player model, I'm not sure), with lag the game is more likely to miss a collision between sabers, since there is a smaller window where the sabers will be in contact. So with significant enough lag, ghoul2 may end up making things worse. But with little to no lag, this gives the game enough time to check the collisions more often. In this case Ghoul2 is better, since this detection is more precise. To find out for one's self which is better, playing against bots would be a good indication, I think. IIRC, when I did this in JO, it was a big improvement (along with all the saber trace stuff).

My other theory is that many people complain that the system is completely random as soon as they lose or have poor pings :)

Originally posted by BloodRiot
So it's either the location damage that makes people wonder why that blow only took 1 hp while the other exact same took 100hp.
Or the increased lag causes gameplay to become choppy on the client. By JO 1.04, damage was partially determined by the amount of time the saber was in the collision box for the body. It also depended on at what point in the swing did the hit occur (hitting at the end of a swing does less damage, for example). So a nick doesn't do nearly the damage of a chop that goes from head to toe (which makes sense). Location damage takes this one step further, so that if it detects that you hit an arm, the damage is going to be less than if you hit the head. So it is not random, it depends on what you hit. If people really don't like this, the damage model can be set to the JO version with a cvar.

However, lag can make things look inconsistent. For example, if someone does a red top-down chop through an opponant's head and body, with no lag, the game detects that the saber is in the body's collision box for a long time, and thus does massive damage. With Ghoul2 on in this case, the damage is even more accurate, since the game can detect more accurately how long the saber was in the body. With lag, the game might not start detecting the hit until the saber passes through the waist and out, say for only %20 of the total swing. The game thinks that the saber was only touching the body for a short amount of time, and so calculates that the damage is only %20 of what it would be otherwise. So in the end the player might only receive 20 damage instead of 100. This makes the damage look random to some players. On servers I play on, I see a lot of players with 300 pings complaining that everything is too random, where as I find with my 40 ping that things are pretty good.

There really is no way around the lag issue, and players with poor connections are going to have problems. That is a fact of life. Now there is some randomness introduced on purpose by Raven, to try and cover up some of the issues introduced by lag. I believe that their philosophy is that the majority of players don't demand a completely unrandom system, and so try and make up for some of the lag issues that way.

It seems that a few around here don't like that philosophy :)

Originally posted by babywax
No, not if they made duals have horrible defense, and staff have horrible offense. They would be specialized, and single would be all around good. But then wouldn't single be the obvious choice? Duals would get killed all the time because of weak defense, and doubles wouldn't be able to kill anyone consistently. Duals would likely lose against single because it couldn't defend against a red chop, and doubles would lose because because it wouldn't be able to break through singles defense very often.

Personally, I think they are pretty well balanced as they are.

babywax
11-06-2003, 03:57 PM
Who says they couldn't break through the defense? Two slow red swings could ;)

With staff, the defense would make up for the lack of offense, and the same for duals.

Prime
11-06-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by babywax
With staff, the defense would make up for the lack of offense, and the same for duals. But how would the staffer defeat anyone? Duels would go on forever :) And how would dual defeat anyone, of their opponant has batter defense (by using single or staff), all the dualer can do is button mash and hope they get some hits in. There is no point playing a defensive game since, well, they have very little of that :)

babywax
11-06-2003, 04:44 PM
Duals wait for an opening, someone always attacks first ;)
If duals attack first against a staffer, then the staffer tries to get a hit in. If he does he does some damage, if he doesn't he gets hit. Same for single. And same for single vs staff. Staff would still be able to damage, it just wouldn't be as much as single/duals.

Prime
11-06-2003, 05:11 PM
I just don't see how this is an improvement over what we have now :)

babywax
11-06-2003, 05:13 PM
Well, I just think it would feel more rounded out... Maybe instead of making duals/staff offensively/defensively slanted, make them just overall well balanced, for blue/yellow/red stances. I just feel it would make the game seem more rounded... Maybe I'm wrong though.

KaiaSowapit
11-06-2003, 07:35 PM
I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but in general terms, wouldn't dual sabers or a saber staff be superior to a single saber simply by their very nature (assuming everything else was equal)?

I mean seriously... wasn't there a reason Obi Wan & Qui-Gon had "oh sh*t" expressions on their faces when Maul whipped out his staff? Why did Obi toss Anakin a second saber to fight Dooku? Wasn't it so he'd have an advantage?

Why do people choose single sabers anyway? Isn't it because it's more of a challenge or more "honorable"? Or is it that people are just hung up on trying to relive what they're used to from JK2?

SpDTheadkeFor
11-06-2003, 07:41 PM
Lag probably has some things to do with the randomness of the Ghoul2. However, I think the more acurate hit detection, at least for how JO and JA are designed, is a bad choice. The reason being there is no such thing as precision aiming in the game, unless your using guns. Its more keep your cross hairs on your target and swing, its proximity aiming if you will. Yes, you can aim at someones head, and every once in a while you might get a head shot, but thats usually not the case. Parries and blocking add to this random inacuracy of the swings as well. Ghoul2 hit detection would be great if my saber hit my target exactly where I am aiming and if I roughly new how my saber, or my oppents saber was going to parry, but thats not possible in JA or JO. Game play is too fast, parries are too unpredicable, and targeting is impresice.

So, maybe I should put it this way. The Ghoul2 hit detection is not random. If a saber passes through a certain part of your body, it accurately despenses the right amount of damage. The problem is that swings, parries, and blocking are random. Super accurate hit detection should be used for super accurate aiming. In the case of JA, you have super accurate hit detection, will rather less than super accurate aiming ability.

In JO, damage was much more predetermined. It really didn't matter as to where your blade passed through your oppents body because damage had more to do with your stance and at what point in time your swing connected. For example, if you hit someone with yellow, it would consistantly take around 30 hp, blue averaged 10 to 15, and red from 40 to 60. This provided at least a fairly reliable standard of swing damage. I guess you could say it gave more control to the player.

Its my feeling that the Ghoul2 removes some of the control a player used to have in JO. Because swings are fairly imprecise, it makes the player more dependent on the damage engine and less depended on their own skill to deliver damage. Basically, it provides too much "luck of the draw." In JO, I could enter a duel situation with pretty good idea of what was going to happen, but in JA, its too often a toss-up. JO's damage may have been unrealistic, but at least it was reliable.

I don't know, do you at least kinda see what I'm saying? :confused:

eniaC
11-06-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by KaiaSowapit
I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but in general terms, wouldn't dual sabers or a saber staff be superior to a single saber simply by their very nature (assuming everything else was equal)?

Seems pretty accurate to me.
Theoretically you'd think dual sabers would have better defense, imo, and a staff would easily throw an opponent off guard, imo,...theoretically.(I think single would be more precise...maybe...imo.)

eniaC (single saber user)

Kurgan
11-07-2003, 12:38 AM
Suffice to say, my arguments were based on HITS, not blocks.

I can hit somebody all day long and have them block every hit, but the only hit that counts is the one that is NOT blocked that kills them (again, unless it's a nick).

If it's simply "luck" that lets me win against Staff/Dual users using nothing but Fast or Medium, then in the words of the immortal Pee Wee Herman:

"I'm the luckiest boy in the world!"


Notice I never said I was the greatest dueler. I'd probably lose. But that's not the point. The point is I have a system that works, and in fact it's the one that Raven recommends. Now granted, they offered saberdamagescale 1 for duels because people were demanding longer fights. But a Lightsaber Challenge in the middle of a FFA is no less "challenging" than a 1 vs 1 duel on a duel server, unless you are wanting to bring in all other force powers, in which case emphasis on saber combat is diminished in favor of force combat. I don't win every time, I'm just saying the issue of a certain type being "over powered" simply isn't there.

If you're basing your argument on a few Dual/Staff users that seem unbeatable, I don't think that's valid. Otherwise we just have to find one single saber user who can beat them and then all you can do is chalk it up to skill/experience.

My example just shows that using the staff/duals is not a guarenteed win. In fact I do poorly with staff most of the time, simply because I have not used it that much. I prefer Duals or Single and do much better with them on average. I rarely ever use Strong and do poorly with it most of the time. Again, I chalk this up to experience and not a game imbalance.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ghoul2 the DEFAULT setting? So if I've learned to live with that kind of hit detection, why can't you?

I don't use increased blocking, I only use increased damage. This just gives me leverage in arguments where people say "well that move ONLY does 30 hp damage vs that other move that does 35 hp damage!"

bodstevens
11-07-2003, 12:55 AM
Umm no red is the best stance....

SpDTheadkeFor
11-07-2003, 06:32 AM
The saber types are balanced, I've been saying that for a while now, but you havent picked up on it.

Yes, Ghoul2 is default, and you can get used to it. But I still believe it lowers the control, skill and qualitly of play.

As far as beating people with blue, ya it can be done, but not with blue spam-sweep, at least not where I play.

Ah frick screw it, I'm done with this debate, its a waste of my time, I'm tired, I need to go to sleep. This is my last post, I wasting too much time on debates like this :( but I love to argue :D