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Marker0077
11-04-2003, 11:57 PM
I think player model scaling should be added but NOT like it was with JediPlus. Here's my thoughts on this...

Smaller models have 2 advantages...
#1) There is not as much player model for the opponent to hit.

#2) The smaller model is more open to hit the lower portion (legs) of the opponents player model where there is not as much defense. The opponent could crouch but that would slow down the players movement speed.

With that in mind, I think that the smaller the player model, the more damage their damage should be increased with the mid & lower sections of the player moel but NOT the head.

There are 2 advantages with smaller scaled models but with the new JK3 code, the damage isn't as much in the legs as it is in the mid section or head.

Now there are some other ways of trying to balance this out, like scaling the movement speed but I DO NOT think the saber damage should be scaled at all.

I am suggesting that something else be scaled with the model scaling as 1 CVar & not 2 because people tend to just use 1 & not the other, regardless of whether or not it balances out which is ridiculous IMO.

Where are all of you with this?

razorace
11-05-2003, 12:45 AM
Personally, I like the idea of hitpoint scaling where your hitpoints are directly related to the volume of your bounding box. If the standard size is 1x1x1 and your model is .5 x .5 x .5 your hitpoints would be 12.5% of normal. Meaning that Yoda would have far less hitpoints than Kyle.

Marker0077
11-05-2003, 07:09 AM
What I was thinking was if the CVar is set to 0, it's off, if it's set to 1 then the it scales the model & how much damage you take, & if it is set to 2 then it scales the player model & the movements speed.

If you are a smaller model, you should take more damage. It doesn't matter if you look at it from a realistic aspect or a gameplay aspect, it just fits the bill. Realistically, a saber blade would appear larger to you if you were a smaller person. Gameplay-wise, smaller models already have an advantage with not having as much area to hit in the player model.

Now as far as whether or not the head damage should be increased, I vote no just because the persons head is already going to be in an easier place for you to hit. If you stand sweep in blue, you can take the person out relitively quick. I don't want the smaller scaling to have too much of a disadvantage, it has to have its advantages too to even it out.

Well, that's my 2 cents folks.

razorace
11-05-2003, 08:30 AM
I disagree with damage scaling, it would feel wierd and disorientating to the players.

I think you have a point with the speed scaling, but we'd have to be sure that the view points scales with the player. Otherwise, smaller players would feel slow.

Marker0077
11-06-2003, 12:08 AM
Well there needs to be something to go with the player model scaling to balance gameplay out. The player model damage intake & the player model movement speed was the only 2 things I could think of to balance it out.

You could also do the S curve thing that Lee had done with Duelers. It scales the swinging speed, which I personally did not like, I mean, it wasn't a drastic change in swing speed but there was some difference. Anyways, just throwing ideas out there.

The bottom line is there MUST be some form of balancing out gameplay. You just simply can not make a model smaller without giving some sort of disadvantage, otherwise everyone in the room is going to be Yoda/Jawa & that's going to be totally lame.

razorace
11-06-2003, 02:18 AM
I agree. A player model scaling system will NOT be put in JKA without some sort of gameplay balance.

Azymn
11-10-2003, 10:01 PM
Bigger == faster.
Bigger == easier target.

razorace
11-10-2003, 11:23 PM
Well, we have to be careful, I'm not sure we want to make movement speed scaling a part of things. You could have issues with people taking bigger characters just to get a slight speed boost over the default size.

Azymn
11-10-2003, 11:41 PM
Well, that's the whole idea behind balancing - if you give penalties/bonuses for being a different size you have to consider that people might just choose the largest/smallest model for that reason. I didn't quantify my scaling, which also needs to be taken into account: especially where speed is concerned, it's not a 1:1 ratio.
The actual formula i'd suggest (which i used before) is something like this:

if(modelscale>=1.0)
speed = (modelscale+3)*0.25;
else
speed = (modelscale+2)*0.33;

Then, a model which is 50% taller (which should perhaps be a limit on scale) is only 12% faster. This is a significant advantage in speed, but you pay for it with an unproportional hitbox volume increase as well. The penalties associated with smaller characters are slightly greater due to the large advantage gained from such small hit boxes.
I've tinkered around with lots of model scaling penalties, and this is one i favor.

razorace
11-11-2003, 12:15 AM
Well, I'm not sure a simple speed balance will cut it. Remember that your jump ability vertical speed isn't affect by your movement speed. There's a risk of smaller players bunny hopping like crazy without any real penality. I think we also probably need a direct 1:1 hitpoint scaler.

Azymn
11-11-2003, 12:24 AM
This is just one of the balances I favor. Indeed it will require more - I used 4 different scaling modifiers previously.

razorace
11-11-2003, 12:38 AM
four?

Azymn
11-11-2003, 08:09 AM
- Damage dealt (Strength bonus)
- Damage received (Defense bonus)
- Speed
- Knockback

In retrospect, sabers should do the same damage regardless of the strength/size of the person, so i'd nix the first one off the list. But yeah, these are a few means by which scaling can affect gameplay.

Regardless of which ones you choose to use, the bonuses/penalties for scaling should be slight, just noticeable.

NickR
12-01-2003, 08:19 PM
I agree that we shouldn't alter the damage of the saber but we should alter the length and radius of both hilt and blade. I did this with my model scaling code for JO and it made yoda play and look better. It's a simple adjustment. That could be the balance. The scale of the model effects the scale of the saber. You may be smaller and harder to hit but you'll have to get closer to hit an opponent.

razorace
12-01-2003, 09:05 PM
That's a good idea and I think that should go in there, but that won't be enough to balance for gun play. I still think a hitpoint scaler is needed.

Marker0077
12-01-2003, 09:24 PM
You guys also have to keep something in mind, smaller models are also a bit more likely to get hit in the head. Ever notice how you kill people in 1 lunge if they are crouching or their head is low? The same concept will apply (at least I would think) with smaller scaled models.

A bonus on the other hand (at least with red stance) is you have better defense & offense when swinging right, like you would crouching.

Hopefully it will balance out. We need some beta's to really go from here.

NickR
12-04-2003, 12:40 AM
Easy headshots for smaller models is certainly a disadvantage as is the length and radius of the saber. The advantage is run faster and jump higher (relatively) and harder to hit. We just need to balance the guns.

Marker0077
12-04-2003, 03:58 PM
Balanced Areas:

Attack Speed:
This was implimented in Duelers for JK2 & is one of the few concepts that was originally by Lee. I thought this was a terrible idea at first but after using it for awhile, I realized I was wrong & this is a good way to help balance things out; Especially with any damage scaling.

This is not a huge difference in speed (much like the movement speed should be set up) but in a nutshell, smaller models may not inflict as much damage, however, they can swing a little faster.

Movement Speed:
If you are bigger you can take larger steps & would be faster, so the bigger you are, the faster you can run.

This should not be a large scale, maybe 1/4th. Any more than that might be too much of a disadvantage because first of all, since you are a larger model the head might be a tougher area to hit & secondly, running too fast is just too much of an advantage. You'd never need to use force jump to get away from your opponents, you could simply run from them - know what I mean?

Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps it should be scaled by 15%. It's something we're going to have to play with. What we could really use is a beta test server.

Damage Intake (NOT saber damage):
Same concept from JediMod in JK2 just dealt with in a different area. Originally, the amount of damage your saber inflicts is scaled by your model size but with this, it's judged not by the saber but by the actual model. I'm personally not a fan of messing with damages but it is an area to consider, so please consider it; Especially with the attack speed scaling.

If you are a smaller person, certain things would appear larger to you than it would a person of normal height. This same concept applies to damage being dealt.

In all reality, I think smaller scaled models having their heads in a more hitable area will make up for this area all on it's own.

Knockback:
NO-$&#*ing way!

Scaling the knockback is so ridiculous. In JK2, people would punt the Yoda/Ugnaught model like it was a football. Granted, it is harder to kick a smaller scaled model but still, watching smaller models go flying about the room, while funny, is very uncool while trying to play a game.

Radius & Length:
This can be used as a possible replacement for damage scaling. It's a pretty self-explanitory area, smaller models have smaller blades & hilts (don't forget to scale the hilts), larger have larger.

My Opinion:
I think we should scale the raduis & length, & movement speed for sure & we should play around with the damage & attack speed a bit.

Wudan
12-06-2003, 12:46 PM
Well, I was just going to scale movement speed and health for my mod.

Health should be less, because it should take less to kill a smaller scaled player. Rather than mess around with too much math and whatnot, I was going to 'categorize' players based on how large of a target they present, in to 3 or 4 distince sizing groups.

razorace
12-06-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Wudan
Well, I was just going to scale movement speed and health for my mod.

And what mod are you working on? I noticed that your name isn't on the AOTCTC team list anymore.