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Marker0077
11-05-2003, 12:22 AM
This is the place to list all the stuff that should go into basic...

* Grappling hook

* Each emote on it's own command

* Make it so you can play at least 12 taunts, preferrably 20 (yes I can sometimes come up with these many taunts for JK) & also add a command so you can play each individual taunt

* Add extra stances as an option & make it so that you can set enable or disable the extra stances for each individual saber type.

*** Add a CVar for showing the winners health points at the end of duels & make it optional so that it may be broadcasted to just the person that lost or to the entire server.

** RGB colored scale for lightsabers

* A CVar that makes it so that the map doesn't change until duels are over but doesn't allow any new duels to begin.

* Add a better MotD system.

* Sabers do not auto-ignite.

* New force ranks that allows all force points to be filled (this was originally my idea BTW).

* CVar that allows you to use light & dark side force points (this would obviously need more force ranks).

* Add a CVar to move chat text to the top of screen (client-side).

* Add a CVar so that alive players can not read dead players text & possibly vice versa. This would include not showing name changes as well.

Okay, that's about it for now. DO NOT LIST ADMIN STUFF HERE or any other incredibly complicated changes that would require a ton of coding. I am starting an admin commands thread, post that stuff there.

Samuel Dravis
11-05-2003, 04:10 AM
Those last few sound a lot like Forcemod. But that's ok with me. :)

*Default allow spectator chat to duelers to yes
*If cheats are enabled, have levels to cheats. Full, No God and no give health/armor/all (modify this to not give armor and hp?), Allow spawns only. This would make it fun to spawn rancors etc, but not have people just using god or other cheats to win.

razorace
11-05-2003, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
*If cheats are enabled, have levels to cheats. Full, No God and no give health/armor/all (modify this to not give armor and hp?), Allow spawns only. This would make it fun to spawn rancors etc, but not have people just using god or other cheats to win.

Or maybe make it an admin command?

Samuel Dravis
11-05-2003, 04:35 AM
It would be mostly for when the admin leaves the server, but people still want to have wampa duels. The admin could just turn it on when he leaves.

razorace
11-05-2003, 04:39 AM
I've added those ideas to the suggestions list.

Marker0077
11-05-2003, 07:22 AM
You don't want to add spawn of npcs, it lags out servers bad when you spawn enough. Also, you don't want any commands that give any 1 person something & not everyone else, that's going to put this mod into the same boat that JA mod for JK2 was/is in. Example, if you have a comand that gives full ammo, have it give everyone full ammo - not just one person, etc; etc. Anything other than that is flat out cheating.

** Make a CVar that allows 2 people to duel in power duel if there are only 2 players connected to the server

I had another idea but I forgot it :-/

razorace
11-05-2003, 08:33 AM
Hmmm, that's a interesting point. In reality, we need a Co-Op mode that handles all this. I'd suggest something with an option to respawn baddies or not.

In addition, I think power duel needs a work over, the current system of having seperate power teams and single fighters seems odd to me. I'd have it set up to do some sort of tourny thing for team selection.

But then, those are more major modifications.

Marker0077
11-06-2003, 12:24 AM
I have had a few more ideas, some of which would be a major add but I didn't want to start a whole new thread on this because I don't think it is going to have a whole lot of conversation on it. Anyways...

* Yellow DFA: I see why Raven change the YDFA but I think it was a bad change. Last night I tried YDFA'ing this AFK'er & literally could not do it. Even when you do actually get a hit, it doesn't do that much damage.

I think Raven changed YDFA because being able to move left/right while in mid-air just is not realistic, so I was thinking that maybe it should use force mana while moving left/right in a YDFA.

This would obviously be a CVar between this & the original but obviously most people would want to go with this.

* 2v2 Player Mode: Self-Explanitory, a 2v2 gametype would rock like a mountain.

* JK2 Animations: I was thinking how lame it is without the left to left-forward yellow combo in JK3; So, I was thinking that perhaps we should have a CVar to put back some of the old animations into JK3.

We could also just make a new single saber type. Make the damage settings & animations like they were in JK2 but obviously you would not get any of the new moves as well.

Samuel Dravis
11-06-2003, 01:12 AM
As for power duel, if only two people are on the server, they need to be allowed to duel. However, it should use the regular duel rules if it's 1 vs 1 (equal hp, etc).

As for a new JK2 saber stance, I'm for it, but it needs to be optional for the server.

razorace
11-06-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Marker0077
Stuff

I honestly don't see the point of reduxing JK2. If you want to play JK2, go play JK2. :D

Samuel Dravis
11-06-2003, 04:08 AM
:evil1: WE MUST HAVE DISRUPTION MODE AS A CVAR! :evil1:

Well, that would be cool. Concussion Rifle Disruption. :)

Another thing is to allow players to pick out of more models in siege mode. A 3-4 model selection sounds good. They select their class, then their playermodel. Also, there are people that want the custom playermodel in Siege. You'd probably have to integrate that Aayla Secura skin in there to have enough models for that though.

Marker0077
11-06-2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by razorace
I honestly don't see the point of reduxing JK2. If you want to play JK2, go play JK2. :D The point is to get some of those old animations back. I don't think some of them should have been removed, mainly the left to left-forward combo in yellow. That was hella useful.Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
Well, that would be cool. Concussion Rifle Disruption. :)

Another thing is to allow players to pick out of more models in siege mode. A 3-4 model selection sounds good. They select their class, then their playermodel. Also, there are people that want the custom playermodel in Siege. You'd probably have to integrate that Aayla Secura skin in there to have enough models for that though. Fellas, I'd like to point something out to you. Go in your game browser, do a full update for JK3 & look at how many Siege servers there are. There's next to none so I wouldn't go out of your way for something that 99 out of 100 people will never use. As for firearm weapons, same concept except a few more servers use firearm weapons, most don't though.

This is JK, people don't give a damn about weapons or Siege. People come here to use force powers & lightsaber duel. I plan on changing that a bit if I can get Jedi Action going but that remains to be seen. I know the mod would do enormously well but it takes a team of developers & it would appear no one shares the same opinion I do as far as how well the mod would do goes. Too bad.

razorace
11-06-2003, 10:09 AM
That's not a fair test. The ingame browser is broken and you'll notice that the siege servers are always full.

Samuel Dravis
11-06-2003, 12:08 PM
That's because Siege is really fun...

Marker0077
11-06-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by razorace
That's not a fair test. The ingame browser is broken and you'll notice that the siege servers are always full. Who uses the in-game browser? The thing is crap. Anyways, I show no games for Siege in GS3D & 2 with the in-game browser, neither one are close to being full. The point is, there are next to no Siege servers. While the gametype itself is cool, the weapons are crap, which is why no one plays it.

You guys can pursue it all you like, all I'm saying is no one plays it & it seems like a waste of time to me. You need a mod like Jedi Action to give the weapons *some* purpose. If you can't take the sabers away completely & use just the firearm weapons & have fun that way - it'll never change.

Samuel Dravis
11-07-2003, 12:17 AM
With ASE I get around 50 siege servers at a time...That's filtering out the passworded ones. The reason that half of them are empty is that:

1) The game's browser does not work. A lot of newbies have no idea that it is broken, until they see something about it somewhere. Also, the JA community has a lot of little kids that wouldn't know how to get/aren't able to obtain ASE or another program.

2) People don't join a server with no one else on it. That makes some of them stay empty for a long time.

Marker0077
11-07-2003, 02:25 AM
alright, this was a mistake on my part. I set up GS3D incorrectly. FYI, I downloaded ASE & did an update & it showed 20 servers, then I updated it with GS3D & it showed 31 servers.

Sam Fisher
11-07-2003, 10:43 PM
Can we please get a "Back" button in the Mission Select screen?
Thanks.

Its a pain in the ass having no back button...:)


BTW, I like the mod :D

Marker0077
11-07-2003, 11:59 PM
Well I think we might have to have an OJP_SP & an OJP_MP mod folders, one obviously for SP & the other for MP, solely because we are discovering that some changes we make for MP would not work out to well in SP (we want to keep this one a little more private for the time being to not make MP playing any worse, Razor knows what I am talking about) & there are probably some changes made in SP that might not do so well in MP as well.

SP mods can run in custom folders just like MP mods can, oddly enough no one sets their SP mods up like that.

As far as this "back button" goes, why don't you just save your game at the beginning of each mission?

Samuel Dravis
11-08-2003, 12:09 AM
You know, the point of this mod is to provide improvements to the game. I think that it's a valid idea. I'll go check it out.

Marker0077
11-08-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
You know, the point of this mod is to provide improvements to the game.Ya I got that but I just do not see the point in providing a feature that pretty much exists already. No there is no actual "back" button but if there was it would function in 1 of 2 ways, #1 it auto-saves the last mission & just goes back to it or #2 you just have it load the map. Obviously #1 is the best but you can already save it & have it do the exact same thing - so what's the point?

When I played SP, I saved all the time. I recommend everyone else do the same.

Samuel Dravis
11-08-2003, 02:39 AM
Well, it doesn't seem too hard to implement. And not everyone is as wise as you are, Marker. :)

razorace
11-08-2003, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Marker0077
Well I think we might have to have an OJP_SP & an OJP_MP mod folders, one obviously for SP & the other for MP, solely because we are discovering that some changes we make for MP would not work out to well in SP (we want to keep this one a little more private for the time being to not make MP playing any worse, Razor knows what I am talking about) & there are probably some changes made in SP that might not do so well in MP as well.

SP mods can run in custom folders just like MP mods can, oddly enough no one sets their SP mods up like that.

Well, we might have to do that at some point but I think we need to cross that road once we get there.

Emon
11-08-2003, 02:57 AM
Whoa, some of that doesn't belong in basic. Basic shouldn't change gameplay other than balance stuff, enhanced is for anything else.

Grappling hook, I think, should never be there. In any distribution. It's fun to fool around with, but you could never play with it seriously, unless you added rope physics...

And, for the love of god, no more emotes in FFA other than a few taunts... please!

Adding new stances I think should be enhanced, but that's debatble.

razorace
11-08-2003, 03:37 AM
Sorry, you are correct. I wasn't paying attention to the Thread Name. I'll rename the thread to just "Various Minor Additions" since this is basically what the thread is about.

Marker0077
11-08-2003, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by Emon
And, for the love of god, no more emotes in FFA other than a few taunts... please!Actually what I was suggesting is just make a command for each one of the existing emotes, especially considering they don't work in FFA at all (as far as I know, I don't usually play FFA).

Now that you bring it up though, I don't see what's wrong with more emotes, it adds fun factor & that's the #1 thing that any game is about - fun.

Emon
11-08-2003, 07:56 PM
Because people abuse them. You get idiots who use sit in the middle of the battlefield and try to chat with their friends. Emotes geared towards "RPGing" need to be strictly prohibited.

Marker0077
11-08-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Emon
Because people abuse them. You get idiots who use sit in the middle of the battlefield and try to chat with their friends. Emotes geared towards "RPGing" need to be strictly prohibited. People do that in general, not adding more emotes &/or making the existing emotes more available is NOT going to stop or slow that down in ANY way, shape, or form.

If you get someone messing around, you tell them to stop chatting/doing emotes because the next time, you are going to attack them. If this is something that happens often - bind a key to say that, but DO NOT let some lamers ruin it for the rest of us.

I think you should look at the big picture, not just the bad corner of it. The only reason why I brought it up is because I want to be able to access the taunt emote from JK2 all the time, it's quick & is something I can use at a relatively close distance. The flipping the saber emote is pretty cool too.

Again, not all of us sit there & chat & do emotes all the time during a duel, you need to deal with those people individually, not restrict the entire community of some fun factor.

Samuel Dravis
11-09-2003, 12:04 AM
There is a quick and easy way to get rid of annoying people using emotes too much (
they should be warned about it first): /kick <playername>


If they have a problem with it, there is a lot of other servers out there....

Marker0077
11-09-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
There is a quick and easy way to get rid of annoying people using emotes too much (
they should be warned about it first): /kick <playername>


If they have a problem with it, there is a lot of other servers out there.... I think he was referring to being on other peoples servers.

It doesn't matter, if they are chatty or abusing emotes, warn them to play because the next time you will attack them. When they die from chatting or abusing emotes enough times, they'll eventually stop; Or they'll die but either way though - problem solved.

Samuel Dravis
11-09-2003, 03:26 AM
I think he was referring to being on other peoples servers.
In that case, then you are right. They will die. :)

Emon
11-09-2003, 03:22 PM
You don't get it, do you? First of all, most admins don't monitor their servers that often. If people abuse them, and get kicked, they'll just come back later. You can ban, but most people don't even know it exists or know how to use it.

Hell, it has nothing to do with that at all. You're acting as if all the RPG crap is on the player side, and admins are against it. That's so wrong. If we added emotes, there are going to be servers that ALLOW it and are DEDICATED to it. RPGing is one of the things that lead to the downfall of JO, in my opinion, because idiots just sat around, chatted, etc. And that pisses off the people that actually want to play the game, so then they leave.

Just look around on the JA discussion. Mostly everyone will go raging on about how RPG sucks. There's no way we're adding something that might help in "RPGing" on servers.

New taunts aren't the same, those are fine, and they don't mess up gameplay. Taunts are in UT, and no one has a problem with those. But anything like sitting is not getting in this mod. Ever.

Chairwalker
11-09-2003, 04:25 PM
Im not sure if it has been mentioned before, but being able to select the custom player colors in an RGB fashion would be cool.

Emon
11-09-2003, 06:31 PM
Yeah, I should be able to do that just with menu modifications.

razorace
11-09-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Chairwalker
Im not sure if it has been mentioned before, but being able to select the custom player colors in an RGB fashion would be cool.

Agreed. I think Emon is working on that.

Originally posted by Emon
Stuff about emots.

I'm going to have to disagree. I don't have a problem with RPG emotes as long as they don't have some sort of abuse involved (like no damage or something).

If someone codes it and submits it, that's fine with me. If it's a big deal for you, we could add a RPG emotes disable cvar and ask people to have some sort of [RPG] tag in the server name.

razorace
11-09-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Emon
Yeah, I should be able to do that just with menu modifications.

Speaking of which, where is tht RGB color data stored in MP? It's different than what's used in SP.

Emon
11-09-2003, 07:49 PM
...Are you aware of the volume of people that hate RPG playing? We'd get no support from the community if we put it in.

It's an FPS, we shouldn't be adding RPG aspects to the game. It's really going to mess everything up. People are going to abuse it anyway. If you can sit, people will start sitting and chatting, and then they'll get mad if someone kills them, and then those people will get mad at them for RPG playing, and then they'll stop playing the mod, and if every mod starts to have it because they're based off OJP, they'll stop playing JA entirely. That's exactly what happened in JO.

RenegadeOfPhunk
11-09-2003, 10:10 PM
I agree with Emon here. I just don't think extra emotes are worth having if it even has a chance of starting off the crazy crap that went on in JO.

...I think we have to be a bit responsible -and have the for-sight to nip problems in the bud, rather than relying on both players and admins to act and play within acceptable bounds.


If we add RPG-like emotes, it will have a good chance of encouraging RPG-like gameplay. This is ineviatable as far as I'm concerned...

I'm not against a couple of extra taunts - but that's a different story. (I don't see how 'sitting' - for example - helps to enrich combat!!)

razorace
11-10-2003, 02:06 AM
Well, I disagree since harmless RPG emotes are a fairly desired feature. People bugged me about it all the time for MotF.

However, I'm perfectly willing to go with the majority on this.

Emon
11-10-2003, 04:14 AM
That was then, this is now. A lot of people hate RPG and admin mods now.

Besides, it's just not worth the risk. I'd be all for a true, full blown RPG mod, one that doesn't interfere with regular games (JK had one, it was pretty slick, with a new level), but mixing RPG bloat into an FPS is just asking for trouble somewhere along the line.

razorace
11-10-2003, 04:52 AM
Yeah, but a lot of those individuals just spend all day whining on forums. :)

Samuel Dravis
11-10-2003, 06:29 PM
I noticed today that a person was using the saber off + roll stab exploit on the [SIN] server. That thing is hateful, and needs to be fixed badly. I know that the patch will most likely have a fix for this, but just wanted to post it in case it doesn't.

razorace
11-10-2003, 08:40 PM
Please explain the exploit.

Azymn
11-10-2003, 09:17 PM
Ace, it's that one ASk showed us awhile back in IRC - roll and stab w/ saber off creates blade from old deactivation point to new tip.

Samuel Dravis
11-10-2003, 09:30 PM
Yeah, that's the one.

razorace
11-10-2003, 09:33 PM
Oh, ok. I thought it was only a visual problem. Does it apply to hit detection as well?

Azymn
11-10-2003, 09:52 PM
Indeed.

Marker0077
11-11-2003, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by razorace
If someone codes it and submits it, that's fine with me. If it's a big deal for you, we could add a RPG emotes disable cvar and ask people to have some sort of [RPG] tag in the server name. Just make a server CVar for it & the game will show the "RPG" rule as being set to 0 or 1. He can filter out those servers at that point, but I agree with you on this. There is no real problem there.Originally posted by Emon
...Are you aware of the volume of people that hate RPG playing? We'd get no support from the community if we put it in.Dude, no offense, but you need to get a grip. It's not going to destroy the game FFS. Raven added the meditate emote to JK3, I haven't heard 1 complaint from anyone about any of the new emotes, aside from you.

You want a good example? Look at JediPlus, no offense to Jason but his mod sucked bad but people loved it. It was the #1 server & client side mod FFS - how ridiculous is that?

People like emotes, it adds fun factor to the game. Yes, it is gh3y to sit there & do nothing but chat & do emotes but as long as you WARN people that they need to stop because next time you are going to attack them - it's fine.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
I'm not against a couple of extra taunts - but that's a different story. (I don't see how 'sitting' - for example - helps to enrich combat!!) Sometimes in FFA you just want to take a break. You sitting somewhere is an obvious sign that you are not playing at that moment; Or, if you go AFK for a bit, it does the same there as well.Originally posted by razorace
However, I'm perfectly willing to go with the majority on this. If you really want to go with the majority on this, take up a poll in the general forums. I guarantee people will want this stuff in there.

You don't have to be a coder to have an opinion or good ideas, granted people in general don't have good ideas but they are out there. I suggest you guys take polls in public places & get your feedback there.Originally posted by Emon
A lot of people hate RPG and admin mods now.Who? Who has ever said that? There have been a bunch of people who hated Jedi Academy mod because of all the abusive admin commands but I have never heard anyone complaining about excessive usage of emotes - never, & I've been here since day 1.

I will agree with you guys on the freeze emote, it does leave room for admin abuse, but if you guys code ONLY what you want & not what the community wants, I don't see anyone wanting to use this on their server.

razorace
11-11-2003, 06:24 AM
While we appreciate feedback from the general public, we don't do our decisions based on public polls.

Let's face it, the general public aren't modders and 99% have no real clue of what's possible, reasonable, or what they really want. Heck, 75% of the modders don't either.

As such, you can't really catter to them since you can't learn what they really want by talking to them. If you just did what "the community" wants, you'd spend all your time doing crappy clan reskins, adding abusive admin functions, and constantly nerfing/twinking damage settings.

I've also found that modders are basically 100% intereste based. They don't do what you ask unless they're really interested in whatever they're doing. As such, giving out assignments just does not work.

Finally, OJP is primarily for developers. They come first since they are the ones that contribute and support OJP. Sure, public/server support is great and all, but it has little relivence to the success of the project.

Marker0077
11-11-2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by razorace
As such, you can't really catter to them since you can't learn what they really want by talking to them.That is sooo not true. Yes, most of the ideas are bad, however, the good ones are in there. Personally I think you just don't want to deal with the hassle of public polls (dealing with n00bs & whatnot) & I have to admit, it is a bit of a struggle, but is well worth it IMO.

razorace
11-11-2003, 06:38 AM
I never stated that there aren't good ideas to be found, just that a far majority of it is just chaff.

A simple public poll is not going to show the wishes of the wise 1% of the population.

Samuel Dravis
11-11-2003, 11:30 PM
A simple public poll is not going to show the wishes of the wise 1% of the population.
Well, it would actually be .0025% of the population, according to your earlier posts. :D

I agree with Razorace in that it will generate a lot of replies, many of which would be just too much effort for the gain. Perhaps just a general poll, like "What portion of the game needs to be fixed/improved?". A few options would be: saber combat, force powers, etc. It would show us where most people had a gripe, and let us concentrate on that. Razorace, you don't have to read replies to it if you don't want to. Let Marker do it. :)

razorace
11-11-2003, 11:51 PM
You can do polling all you want. It's just not going to really effect the submissions.

Marker0077
11-27-2003, 04:11 PM
You know when you play FFA or Duel modes & the name always comes up red only? Well why not make it so that in non-team based modes (aside from Power Duel), the names come up colored just like they are viewed pretty much everywhere else (I am referring to when you have a person in your crosshair & their name appears).

In team based modes, the red team names should obviously be in red & the blue team names should obviously be in blue.

This was something that one of the Duelers users asked to be added into Duelers & I believe it was but still, this is a good idea for Basic.

GothiX
11-27-2003, 04:50 PM
I don't think that's such a good idea, unless it can be toggled client-side. I mean, it's awful to look at people running around like this.

See what I mean?

WhiteShdw
11-27-2003, 07:08 PM
Ok, now that the SDK is out, how about some kind of MP NPC fix.

I've been hosting some co-op games for the last 3 days for some friends of mine and while the maps arent' designed for it, I was surprised that it worked at all. I'm thinking that if you build a map specifically for co-op(meaning that you include simple scripts that work in MP)it has a lot of potential as a game type.

The only problem(besides things like complex scripts not working) I've encountered are the NPC's. Stormtroopers usually work ok, but saberusers are hyperactive. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I'm thinking that it has to do with the saberanimation in MP being a lot faster. If you could include a cvar like the SP cvar g_saberanimspeed (is that right?) that might fix some things.

Maybe i'm wrong about the saberanimation speed, but in general it would be cool to have some improved NPC's in MP. I'm thinking co-op could even make a simple ladder map pretty fun.

razorace
11-27-2003, 08:42 PM
Agreed, however until someone makes a Co-Op map specifically for MP, I can't really test what needs to be done.

WhiteShdw
11-27-2003, 08:55 PM
well, just spawning a couple of NPC's in a duel map should give you an indication of the current state of the AI.

If you want to test it some more I suggest just booting up Hoth2 in mp. That works reasonably well until you hit a closed door that can't be opened because the script isn't triggered properly.

Also T3_rift works reasonably well until you get to the same door problem. This one should indicate the bug's in the Reborn NPC's quite well.

So basically a good co-op map, or at least a fully functional co-op map would be a map withouth closed doors, filled with non scripted NPC's.

Marker0077
11-27-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by gothicX
I don't think that's such a good idea, unless it can be toggled client-side. I mean, it's awful to look at people running around like this.

See what I mean? It's no different then looking at the scoreboard & seeing their names. You can see them just fine & it looks better. Like I said before, this was done with Duelers for JK2.

GothiX
11-28-2003, 06:40 AM
I there are 5 or so people running around with those colors, in an FFA, and I'd see those during comabt, it'd be awfully distracting.

Kurgan
12-01-2003, 04:12 PM
Now I don't know about Gamespy3d since I've never used it (I didn't know the difference between it and GSA or GS until I read your rant in the other thread), but:

There are ALWAYS Siege servers. It's the third most popular gametype (behind FFA and Duel).

MOST servers are playing with All Weapons and SOME force powers disabled.

This is how it's been in ASE for almost 2 months, and how it is in the fixed in-game server browser.

This isn't JK2 my friend. In JK2 it's all sabers only force/NF dueling or "honor" crap in FFA. This isn't JK2, this is JA, different animal.

JK2 has more game modes, but they are all pretty low except for FFA & Duel (with CTF going up and down). Again, different community.

Besides, if you say nix support for Siege players or gun players, you're just trying to shoe-horn JA into a JK2 clone community.

What's the point in that? No offense, but sounds like you're one of those "Jedi only" purists. Sorry, but Raven didn't make for you and nobody else!

razorace
12-01-2003, 05:49 PM
Uuuhh. Who are you talking to?

WhiteShdw
12-01-2003, 05:58 PM
I think he got his windows mixed up or something. It looks like he's replying to another thread.

Anyway, since he brought up Siege..... How about adding some gun tweaking support. I'll say this right now, I don't like the guns in JA.
I've been playing some CS for a while now, and after playing some Siege games with JA guns, I can't say i enjoy it. If someone could increase the accuracy and projectile speed of some of the guns I would probably enjoy it a lot more. In CS or RTCW a normal person isn't just able to dodge incoming fire that easily and I don't think anyone in JA should be either, except maybe Jedi(but personally I think they should just use their lightsaber to protect themselves like in the movies).

razorace
12-01-2003, 07:09 PM
I say go for it. It's time consuming so I probably won't be doing it any time soon but it would make a great addition to the project.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-01-2003, 07:58 PM
WhiteShdw,

I think you will be interested in Movie Battles II - my OJP-based mod project for JKA. Amongst other things, I will be adjusting the Siege gametype to play in a more CS-esque type manner.

Also, I'm going to be altering the classes avaliable - adding a lot of SW specific ones like Droideka, Gungan, Sandpeople, Wookies etc. as well as the current MB I classes - Mandalorian, Hero, Soldier and of course Jedi.

The website is being worked on now, I'll post a link when it is ready...

WhiteShdw
12-01-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
WhiteShdw,

I think you will be interested in Movie Battles II - my OJP-based mod project for JKA. Amongst other things, I will be adjusting the Siege gametype to play in a more CS-esque type manner.

The website is being worked on now, I'll post a link when it is ready...

Cool. I'll keep an eye out for it.

Marker0077
12-01-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by gothicX
I there are 5 or so people running around with those colors, in an FFA, and I'd see those during comabt, it'd be awfully distracting. Do you think red only names are distracting too? I don't mean to be sarcastic I'm just saying, I've never heard anyone say that before.

Anyways, there is a CVar built in JK2 to make the player ID come up in the center of the screen or at the bottom left I think, I'm sure it was passed down to JK3 as well.

Either way though, I've used it, it's certainly not anymore distracting than where the new on-screen text is printed in JK3. If you can deal with that, colored names is nothing.

Maybe we could just have a client side CVar for enabling/disabling it. We'll see.Originally posted by Kurgan
Now I don't know about Gamespy3d since I've never used it (I didn't know the difference between it and GSA or GS until I read your rant in the other thread), This is just an FYI...

I did some testing to see if GS3D had more servers than ASE & at the time they did but I recently did it again & the ASE server list totally blew the GS3D list out of the water.

The problem is GS3D can do tons more stuff, the main thing is the custom filters. You can make a filter for any specific type of server you like all varying upon the CVars each server has showing (i.e. g_forcePowerDisable, # of players, g_gametype, etc; etc.).

My solution is to take the server list from ASE & import it to GS3D which works out wonderfully, especially considering there are some servers in GS3D that are not in ASE.Originally posted by Kurgan
There are ALWAYS Siege servers. It's the third most popular gametype (behind FFA and Duel).

MOST servers are playing with All Weapons and SOME force powers disabled.

This is how it's been in ASE for almost 2 months, and how it is in the fixed in-game server browser.Yes but Siege has problems, at least with me anyways. Maybe it's because I'm a Win98 user, I don't know but when I mess around in the UI menus too much my computer locks up. So I lose interest in Siege pretty fast but I love the Swoop bikes.

Anyways, I didn't see that before because of the restricted server list I was getting from GS only. Now I get it from all the ASE sources & GS too.Originally posted by Kurgan
This isn't JK2 my friend. In JK2 it's all sabers only force/NF dueling or "honor" crap in FFA. This isn't JK2, this is JA, different animal.Not really. I can see where you are going with the "different animal" as far as Siege is concerned, that's a big improvement, but most people still just play FFA & Duel. I myself play Duel & it's not such a big change that I would consider it a "different animal". All they really did was make JK3 like JediMod with better duals & staff. To each their own opinion I suppose.Originally posted by Kurgan
JK2 has more game modes, but they are all pretty low except for FFA & Duel (with CTF going up and down). Again, different community.Actually I think Holocron & Jedi Master & all those game modes are still in JK3, they just don't make them accessable via the main menu probably because no one played it.Originally posted by Kurgan
Besides, if you say nix support for Siege players or gun players, you're just trying to shoe-horn JA into a JK2 clone communitySorry, you lost me here.

I'm guessing "nix" is Unix/Linux & if that's the case, why would you not make your mod "nix" compatable? They are a much better server OS to use, which is why people use it in the first place.Originally posted by Kurgan
What's the point in that? No offense, but sounds like you're one of those "Jedi only" purists. Sorry, but Raven didn't make for you and nobody else!Ummm, what's the point in what? Name coloring? It adds fun factor.

How did you get "Jedi only" purists out of that? FFA is the leading gametype & even though I don't play it, this is something that would improve it a little.Originally posted by razorace
Uuuhh. Who are you talking to? He was clearly talking to me at first but the last 2 paragraphs lost me a bit. Good to know I'm not the only one. :-)Originally posted by WhiteShdw
I'll say this right now, I don't like the guns in JA.
I've been playing some CS for a while now, and after playing some Siege games with JA guns, I can't say i enjoy it.This is the #1 concept for the "Action Jedi Outcast" mod I had in mind. The problem is a mod of this caliber will take a team of coders & I don't plan on pursuing this until at least CM is released.

Games like CS, Urban Terror, etc; etc. all originated from Action Quake 2 & you can call me old fashioned but I must say I prefer the original to this day & I plan on shaping AJK around AQ2.

CS is way cool but it's not worth dealing with all the cheaters; Besides, the HL code for firearm attacking is crap. It doesn't do firearm rounds individually, it does them in groups meaning damage isn't taken on a player until whomever is firing either misses or stops firing.

Example:
You can have person 1 with 1 health & person 2 with 100 health. They both start shooting at the same time. Person 2 hits person 1 first & they both unload a full clip which is enough to take off 100 health but since person 1 stopped firing (or missed a round) first, person 1 wins = gh3y.

The saber code in JK is similar to this as well. 2 people can not do damage to each other at the exact same time meaning if 2 people lunge at the same time, the person who lunges secondly would win because the first persons saber would only do damage until the second persons saber started making contact; Which is why you never see any draw duels. This is also gh3y.

Anyways, getting back on topic, I don't want to leave all the details about AJK here (just due to post size) but some of the cool features will be you can kick firearm weapons out of peoples hands with the standard double jump kick, there will be various items & weapons, each one has their own unique advantages & disadvantages, etc; etc.

The way I see it, if you can't take the force powers & lightsabers away & have yourself a game worth playing with just the weapons alone - you're doing it wrong. If I can make this happen then the Jedi vs. Merc mode should be fabulous, especially on these new JK3 maps where you can throw vehicles into the mix.

WhiteShdw
12-01-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
The way I see it, if you can't take the force powers & lightsabers away & have yourself a game worth playing with just the weapons alone - you're doing it wrong. If I can make this happen then the Jedi vs. Merc mode should be fabulous, especially on these new JK3 maps where you can throw vehicles into the mix.

You pretty much sum up my feelings right here. So far I've only been playing JK2 and JA for the sabercombat. If it had some improved weapons(no more of those standard Quake style weapons) and weapon physics, I and I'm sure plenty of other people would enjoy it a lot more. That would also help the other game types. I'm sure Siege would be the most populair gametype if it could compete with games like CS or RTCW. Adding sabercombat would just be icing on the cake then.

razorace
12-01-2003, 10:23 PM
The saber code in JK is similar to this as well. 2 people can not do damage to each other at the exact same time meaning if 2 people lunge at the same time, the person who lunges secondly would win because the first persons saber would only do damage until the second persons saber started making contact; Which is why you never see any draw duels. This is also gh3y.

That's not 100% correct. Yes, one saber will hit first, but that's the nature of most computer programming, the game engine can only do one thing at a time.

However, these scans are done many times per second for each saber, so as long as the hits aren't lethal, they will both take damage.

When the saber hits are lethal, whoever does their saber attack scan first will do the damage and instantly kill their opponent. This prevents them from doing their attack scan and kill the other player. There's a way to fix this (make the sabers do damage for a few seconds after death), but I imagine this sort of thing was so rare that Raven just ignored it.

Marker0077
12-01-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by WhiteShdw
I'm sure Siege would be the most populair gametype if it could compete with games like CS or RTCW.It wouldn't compete with CS. Last I checked RTCW can't even compete with CS which is a shame.

CS is a league all on it's own. Lucasarts would have to do some advertising in order to make something of that caliber become reality. Actually, they would have to implement it into the base game. Most people don't play mods, they check the game out via a demo, maybe play it in a store, not to mention to the fact of all the people who don't even know about mods, etc; etc.

It would definitely improve the Siege aspect & would get more people interested. Personally I think I am not the only person that Siege crashes on which is another big drawback to the gametype.

Even if you did get Siege with these weapons & not crashing, I still think FFA would & will always be the reigning champ of gametypes. It's that way with MoH so I would imagine it would be no different here. Although, I think Siege is much better than the MoH OBJ gametype.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
Adding sabercombat would just be icing on the cake then.I see it reversed tbh. SW to me has always been & will always be about using the lightsaber.Originally posted by razorace
However, these scans are done many times per second for each saber, so as long as the hits aren't lethal, they will both take damage.That hasn't been my experience playing online. There's been plenty of times where someone hits someone else & it's plain as day that they were hitting the person & because the opponent started hitting them second the first opponents damage stopped but like you said, it can only do 1 thing at a time which is perhaps what I am thinking of. Either way, this should be fixed.

Another thing that is gh3y is when you hit a person, it's plain as day you hit the person, & it doesn't count it. This is more common among the high pingers & I am thinking that perhaps when this happens to low pingers it's due to packetloss or a lag spike etc; etc. Is there anyway to resolve that?Originally posted by razorace
There's a way to fix this (make the sabers do damage for a few seconds after death), but I imagine this sort of thing was so rare that Raven just ignored it. it sounds like it's more than just that though. It's not just on death, it's also when you're alive & 2 people are attacking at the same time.

If it can be fixed that would be fabulous.

razorace
12-02-2003, 12:08 AM
Most of the hit detection "issues" are the result of:

1) Lag
2) non-Kyle player models
3) Too low of a sv_fps setting

razorace
12-02-2003, 12:09 AM
There are somethings that I can try to see if it will improve the hit detection but it will take a while to impliment.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-02-2003, 07:36 AM
Actually, they would have to implement it into the base game. Most people don't play mods,


Ermm - last time I checked, CS started out as JUST a mod.

Personally, I think most JKII / JKA mods are too involved with just jazzing up existing gameplay, rather than trying to make a totally new type of game...

....in fact, anybody trying to do anything too 'different' is told by a good section of the current playerbase 'you can't change that!' - and then they go and download the next admin mod that let's them /amsit - calling it the greatest mod that ever existed!! lol

...I'd say that's the No.1 reason why you don't see mods like CS (or DoD, or NS). Just plain lack of desire amongst JK modders to make a game like that in the first place - an attitute that is perpetuated by the playerbase itself...

WhiteShdw
12-02-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Marker0077
It wouldn't compete with CS. Last I checked RTCW can't even compete with CS which is a shame.


I know. I think RTCW and/or DoD(Half Life WWII mod) are at least as fun and perhaps more fun than CS. You can tell that Siege mode was fashioned after RTCW's objective mode. The only difference is that with RTCW you have much better weapons and maps.

JA Siege mode just uses weapons from the SP game, which is crap. They should have things like weapon classes as pistols, rifles and sniper weapons. And it should have more than one weapons per class. For pistols you could have the standard pistol, the bryar gun, the Han Solo pistol(that one is different than the standard right?) and perhaps the dual Jango pistols, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. For rifles you can have the battledroid rifle, Clonetrooper rifle, standard stormtrooper rifle et.. . CS has this, so does RTCW.

This whole idea of using all the weapons that the Sp game has, is old fashioned I think. MP is much faster and more competitive and the weapons should reflect that.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-02-2003, 10:22 AM
And it should have more than one weapons per class. For pistols you could have the standard pistol, the bryar gun, the Han Solo pistol(that one is different than the standard right?) and perhaps the dual Jango pistols, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. For rifles you can have the battledroid rifle, Clonetrooper rifle, standard stormtrooper rifle et.. . CS has this, so does RTCW.


I totally agree.
...this are the kind of weapons I will be including in MB II - not just the SP game weapons. In fact I will be removing most of the SP copies...

keshire
12-02-2003, 10:28 AM
Is there any type of gravity gun in the Star Wars universe? Hell, if Half-Life 2 has it why can't we? ;)

have it act like the rancor/wampa attacks. It sends out the player's r_hand tag (which is what grabs the enemy) and slams them around a little ala grip.

of course this isn't a minor addition

Marker0077
12-04-2003, 04:46 PM
Before I get into the replies, 2 new ideas to add.

#1) Make a second bow emote of the existing one but it goes twice as fast. The current one takes too long but I don't want to remove the original.

#2) Make all emotes available all the time, meaning you can do any of the dual emotes from single etc; etc. Especially the original JK2 taunt because I don't know about the rest of you but that's what I use most of the time. It's a nice fast emote that you can use in the middle of a duel.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Ermm - last time I checked, CS started out as JUST a mod.Exactly, *started out*. CS didn't get as big as it is today until it went retail, which would be the exact same concept as implementing it into the base game.

Day of Defeat went retail also but when was the last time you heard of a mod going retail? Aside from Sierra, no company puts mods out there retail so I wouldn't hold your breath on Lucasarts doing what Sierra does, especially considering that they would get more money from this to write their own code.

For the most part, they care more about the single player than they do the multiplayer. Don't get me wrong, they care about the multiplayer but not as much as single because single is where the majority of their money comes in with this game (& probably all or most others as well).Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Personally, I think most JKII / JKA mods are too involved with just jazzing up existing gameplay, rather than trying to make a totally new type of game...

....in fact, anybody trying to do anything too 'different' is told by a good section of the current playerbase 'you can't change that!' - and then they go and download the next admin mod that let's them /amsit - calling it the greatest mod that ever existed!! lolPeople get used to something & they like it that way. I still play Action Quake 2 to this very day.

It's not that you change something, you have to make it known so when people start playing your mod, they know WTF they are doing & when something happens they know why. If you leave them in the dark, they'll lose interest *real* fast but even if you did make a nice manual that tells everyone everything, you think most people RTFM?

People, for the most part, are just plain lazy. You have to create eye candy & invent new ways to keep them interested, otherwise they won't be.

As for the admin mods, all they are doing is pretty much staying with the base game (back to the "most people don't play mods" thing) & adding a few new features to it. With admin mods, no one has to download anything; Hell, lots of people don't even know they are playing a mod'ed server to begin with.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...I'd say that's the No.1 reason why you don't see mods like CS (or DoD, or NS). Just plain lack of desire amongst JK modders to make a game like that in the first place - an attitute that is perpetuated by the playerbase itself...That's not it for the most part IMO. If that was the case, everyone would be playing Duelers for JK2. It's easily the best client & server side mod for JK2, if the main thing you are after is the dueling experience, which most people are.

You have to know how to pimp off your mod & keep people interested. One of the big reasons why OmniMod got so big is because Jason did an update pretty much every week, so it was always in the new files list. Now of course it's annoying to deal with all the new versions when it's time to play, however publicity-wise, it was a smart thing to do because when you came on to whatever website, it said "new version of OmniMod" right there, as it did with all new files.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
You can tell that Siege mode was fashioned after RTCW's objective mode.MoH (Medal of Honor) came out before RTCW did & it uses an OBJ gametype, but that's not important.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
JA Siege mode just uses weapons from the SP game, which is crap.The existing firearms are crap, yet again, back to the "Action Jedi Knight" mod.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
And it should have more than one weapons per class.Not really, it should have a primary & a secondary. Some classes should have a third firearm but that's about it.

Siege crashes for me most of the time when I am in the GUI menus, so I don't have that much experience with the gametype until I figure out what all the commands are for console.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
For rifles you can have the battledroid rifle, Clonetrooper rifle, standard stormtrooper rifle et.. . CS has this, so does RTCW.RTCW is a class based game, CS is based on choosing your weapons on startup - that's different.

I think I know what you are referring to, useful weapons. This goes back to "Action Jedi Knight" mod which I'm not sure if I posted in this thread but I know I've posted in this forum about a few times.

In a nutshell, each weapon has it's own unique & distinct advantages & disadvantages. There's some other cool stuff like being able to kick firearm weapons out of peoples hands, there's items, which like the weapons, have there own unique advantages & disadvantages, etc; etc.

Unfortunately, a mod of this caliber will take a team of coders & is not something I plan on pursuing until after CM is on the shelves. I'm too wrapped up in CM to be getting into that right now & TBH, I spend to much time on the forums as is.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
This whole idea of using all the weapons that the Sp game has, is old fashioned I think. MP is much faster and more competitive and the weapons should reflect that.There's nothing wrong with using the weapons from SP if they each had there own unique & distinct advantages & disadvantages but they don't so it's lame.

WhiteShdw
12-04-2003, 06:17 PM
MoH (Medal of Honor) came out before RTCW did & it uses an OBJ gametype, but that's not important.

I'm sure it does, but I've never played it. And I don't think I know anyone who has. I think RTCW is more popular and therefore think they used it for inspiration.

Not really, it should have a primary & a secondary. Some classes should have a third firearm but that's about it.

I agree with that, but what I'm talking about is being able to select the weapon for a class. Being able to choose which pistol or which rifle you want to use. CS has this and the last time i played RTCW(which was a long time ago) every class could choose their secondary weapon as well. Medics and LT's could choose from 3 different SMG's and I think soldiers could even choose a flamethrower or minigun.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-04-2003, 06:34 PM
Exactly, *started out*. CS didn't get as big as it is today until it went retail, which would be the exact same concept as implementing it into the base game.


CS went 'retail' because it became big enough to justify it - off it's own steam. CS was one of the most played (in fact, I'm fairly certain it was the most played) online game BEFORE it went to retail...

CS was sucsessful because IT WAS AND IS A GOOD GAME! It always amazes me how many people forget that small point! lol
(whether it's personally to your taste is a different argument)
...forget the kiddy whiners (the JK2 / JKA community can't exactly look down on it in that department!), and forget the cheats (I'll admit that IS a problem that you could argue falls down to the creators of the mod, but the game itself can be viewed seperately)

...the fact is that Counter-Strike did not pimp itself to death to get where it did..

...if got there because it is a well designed, well executed game and (at the time) the gameplay was fairly unique.



That's not it for the most part IMO. If that was the case, everyone would be playing Duelers for JK2.


How can you compare HL -> CS and JKII -> Duelers?!!
HL and CS were essentially two wholly different games! Duelers is an 'enhancement' of JKII gameplay. I'm sure it's a very good, very worthwhile enhancment, but it's not a NEW GAME!
..this is exactly my point. Practically no JKII modders are interested in taking the basic building blocks of JKII and making a brand new game out of it -they are mostly far to busy making 'enhancement' mods for the already existing gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally knocking enhancement mods. They serve a useful purpose for the existing JKII playerbase, and you can get good ones as well as bad ones...
...I'm simply answering the question of 'Why are there no CS-level type mods for JKII'. Enhancement mods will never be packaged up as a new game - because they are not really new games. THey are enhancements of the existing game.

In short, if you want to make a JKII mod at THAT kind of level, the first thing you have to do is actually aim to do it. i.e. NOT make yet another enhancement mod...


One of the big reasons why OmniMod got so big


...this also indicates that we are talking about totally different scales. The reason OmniMod was - what - big? Big in what sense? Yes- it was a relatively big 'enhancement' mod for existing JKII players. But it does not even compare to 'CS' big.

..if you think the answer to making a CS-like mod for JKII is to make bigger and better Omni-mod's - well - all I can say is

a. good luck to you ;)
b. You may as well try and get to the moon by making a really BIG ladder!

razorace
12-04-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
#2) Make all emotes available all the time, meaning you can do any of the dual emotes from single etc; etc. Especially the original JK2 taunt because I don't know about the rest of you but that's what I use most of the time. It's a nice fast emote that you can use in the middle of a duel.

Already done. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119138)

Marker0077
12-05-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
CS went 'retail' because it became big enough to justify it - off it's own steam. CS was one of the most played (in fact, I'm fairly certain it was the most played) online game BEFORE it went to retail...CS didn't go real real big until it went retail. It was easily the best mod for HL & there were alot of players, but you didn't find the tens of thousands of CS servers you do today until it went retail. It had at least a thousand players, maybe even a couple of thousand players before it went retail but it is literally in the tens of thousands range today. That's due to retail distribution mainly; Not that all of those copies are retail, but the retail box on the shelves alone is a killer way to pimp the mod off.

You also have to realize that the Half-Life player base in the first year totally blows the JK player base out of the water to this very day. Back then there were at least a few thousand people playing online (HL & all its mods). There's almost 1,500 people playing JK (that's JK2 & JK3 put together) today.

Besides, not to take away from the mod or anything but it's not exactly saying much considering most people didn't play the valve (i.e. base) game that much. There were people playing it but people enjoyed Action Half-Life (which totally sucks now) when it first came out more than they did the valve game. Playing the base game, with most games, is like drinking hard liquer straight up; You could but it's awful. Most people add other ingredients to it to make it better, just like people do with mods. Personally I just see JK as a glorified Quake mod which is why no one really makes a TC out of it, but that's a different topic.

Realistically, there were no other good mods with Half-Life so naturally they all went to CS (again, I'm not taking away from the mod, it's good & I was a big CS player for quite some time). There were some that were okay, but not real good. Not until DoD came around (which I still hate the sniping aspect of, the coming out of scoped view while strafing crap).

The only reason why I don't play to this day is due to the cheaters. It's just not worth the effort.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
CS was sucsessful because IT WAS AND IS A GOOD GAME! It always amazes me how many people forget that small point! lolWell of course the mod is good, that goes without saying & is totally beside the point. The question of whether or not it was good wasn't even an issue.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...the fact is that Counter-Strike did not pimp itself to death to get where it did..I wouldn't say it "pimped itself to death" but it certainly did a bit of advertising in quite a few places, especially when they came out with the first couple of versions.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...if got there because it is a well designed, well executed game and (at the time) the gameplay was fairly unique.You believe what you want. You can't expect people to play what they don't know about - that's what pimpin it off is all about.

You also have to realize you are comparing this to a TC, which is one of the highest forms of eye candy.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
How can you compare HL -> CS and JKII -> Duelers?!!
HL and CS were essentially two wholly different games! Duelers is an 'enhancement' of JKII gameplay. I'm sure it's a very good, very worthwhile enhancment, but it's not a NEW GAME!You totally missed the point there. The point was you can put a good mod together, if you don't pimp it off & do everything else you can to keep people interested in the project, they're not going to stick around.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
..this is exactly my point. Practically no JKII modders are interested in taking the basic building blocks of JKII and making a new game out of it -they are mostly far to busy making 'enhancement' mods for the already existing gameplay.I'll agree with you there. Originally AJK (Action Jedi Knight) was going to use real guns & not these SW weapons but no coder could see past that. So I am ditching that for the main game & was planning on creating a conversion mod to make that happen; This way, people can see/hear it how they like. The only real problem with that is with laser fire, you won't bleed. You would with real gunfire (in which case there is a bandage button which leaves you unarmed for a few seconds to stop the bleeding).Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...this also indicates that we are talking about totally different scales. The reason OmniMod was - what - big? Big in what sense? Yes- it was a relatively big 'enhancement' mod for existing JKII players. But it does not even compare to 'CS' big.OmniMod was big in the sense that it was the #1 client & server-side mod for JK2 (i.e. most used). Duelers & OmniMod are both JediMod based but Duelers doesn't have half the bugs OmniMod does, it doesn't have the abusive admin commands, it has a non-interferance code (when in a private duel you can only see, hear, & touch the opponent just like the two of you were the only ones in the room but you can still read everyone elses text), it has a totally new duel mode code which allows multiple duels at the same time that pairs up the better players with the better players, worse with the worse, etc; etc. I mean Duelers just totally blows OmniMod out of the water; Yet OmniMod remained #1 for the time it was around (until Jason messed up & pissed off Asty & got it removed from JK2Files.com). That *should* tell you something.

Pimpin' ain't easy but somebody gotta do it. ;-)Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
..if you think the answer to making a CS-like mod for JKII is to make bigger and better Omni-mod's - well - all I can say is

a. good luck to you
b. You may as well try and get to the moon by making a really BIG ladder!Making a CS-like mod was never something I was even thinking about, not even originally with AJK; Well, maybe halfway there with AJK but everyone is too scared or whatever to go out of the Star Wars theme. So I have to adjust with that.

Ya, you totally missed what I was saying there. All I was saying was that OmniMod was #1 for JK2 in the time frame it was around; Of course then again, there really was no other game in town until Duelers came around. Since Lee doesn't know anything about PR or pimpin' it off, I don't see it doing any better in JK3 than it did in JK2 which is a damn shame. Lee lacks business ethics & has some other flaws but the man is a good coder & made a good mod - I can't take that from him. That's the main reason why I am going to bite my lip & help pimp it off for him. I'm not exactly happy about it TBH but it is the proffessional thing to do IMO, so that's what I am doing.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-05-2003, 02:14 PM
but you didn't find the tens of thousands of CS servers you do today until it went retail. It had at least a thousand players, maybe even a couple of thousand players before it went retail but it is literally in the tens of thousands range today.


Well, of course it got EVEN bigger once it went retail. I'm not questioning that. I'm just stating that it did very very well without being a retail game. And I noticed you haven't disupted the fact that CS - even when it was a 'non-retail' mod was just as popular - if not more popular - than many / any 'retail' base games at that time.

Bottom line - CS did not find it's sucsess WHEN it went retail. It found it's sucess before then, and then the fact it went retail just took it from there to where it is today - stupidly popular...!


I wouldn't say it "pimped itself to death" but it certainly did a bit of advertising in quite a few places, especially when they came out with the first couple of versions.

The point was you can put a good mod together, if you don't pimp it off & do everything else you can to keep people interested in the project, they're not going to stick around.


I would say CS's efforts in these 'pimping' areas were - average.
NS, as a counter-example - as far as I'm concerned - pimped itself far more than CS ever did. (Again, I mean BEFORE it went retail) When I first started playing CS, there wasn't even an official webiste! (That I was aware of).
I just downloaded it from some file server, and then I had to pick up the rules from drips and drabs from other players.

NS on the other hand had a very well put together official website, forums and proper progress updates before the first version was released...

Yes, you have to pimp your mod to a certain extent. Of course this is true. Your right, no one can play a mod they don't know about.

But this idea that the most popular mods got where they were mainly because of their PR is not very accurate to the truth I'm afraid. A good game does NOT have to pimp itself 'to death' to survive. It just needs average amount of 'pimp' ( ;) ), and then the quality of the game will speak for itself...


You totally missed the point there.


Nope, I haven't. The question is why are there no CS-level type JKII mods out there. Your answer is 'pimp more'. Sorry, but that's just in-correct. It's not even actually about the 'quality' of the mod either - although this is obviously a factor. ...it's also about what the mod aims to do in the first place. It's about the mods concept.

You could have pimped Duelers till your tounge fell out of your head - and it still would never, and COULD never, have reached the levels of something like CS or NS. THis is obvious. Duelers 'enhanced' JKII gameplay. It was not a new game.

CS and NS are NEW games built on the HL engine. This means that games like CS and NS appeal to people BEYOND the 'base-game' community. People who didn't give a toss about base play re-install the game just so they can play the mod (I know I did that for CS, and eventually NS).

Enhancement mods - on the other hand - don't do that. They only appeal to the CURRENT player-base, who want to play they game with some 'improvements', or in a slightly different way.

So - I haven't missed any points. My point is the ACTUAL reason why there are no JKII mods at the level of things like CS.

You point is 'pimping can help your mod'. This is true, of a CS-level mods or any other mod, but your point doesn't get to the heart of the issue. It's a side issue - at best.


Making a CS-like mod was never something I was even thinking about, not even originally with AJK;


OK - well - this is totally my point. You have to 'aim' to make that kind of mod in the first place. 'Pimping' it is also worthwhile, but the concept has to know where it wants to go in the first place...

THis is, personally, what I am trying to do with Movie Battles II (TBH, this is only a working title. THe name will almost certainly change nearer release time).

Now, will I succeed?! Heh, probably not! But I think JKA is owed at least an attempt by SOMEBODY. And since no-one else is voluentering, I'm stepping up to the plate ;)

..plus, I'm having a blast working on it anyway. So it's worth trying in any case...

Marker0077
12-05-2003, 10:17 PM
I just want to state this before you start doing any replies. I didn't want this to lead to a side rant, all I was doing was trying to inform everyone of some helpful ideas, not debate the legitimacy of them. If you don't agree with anything then fine, you're more than entitled to your opinion & you can do what you like but I don't want to continue with this debate after this post because it's totally off-topic & it's now beginning to change the topic of the thread so I want to end it. It's somewhat rude to everyone else to continue pursuing it, therefore, this is my last reply on this topic.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Well, of course it got EVEN bigger once it went retail. I'm not questioning that. I'm just stating that it did very very well without being a retail game.The mod is great, no doubt about that but when it comes to the amount of players using the mod it's an unfair comparison. #1 a real TC is one of the highest forms of eye candy, so that's 1 thing to keep people interested & #2 Half-Life has a much higher player base than most games.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
And I noticed you haven't disupted the fact that CS - even when it was a 'non-retail' mod was just as popular - if not more popular - than many / any 'retail' base games at that time.I only compared it to the JK player base, which is VERY low compared to most games.

Believe it or not, JK2 or JK3's player base (not both, 1 or the other) alone is not much higher than the Quake 2 player base. MoH is has somewhat died out & has around 8 times the player base of JK2, JK3, or Quake 2 today.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
I would say CS's efforts in these 'pimping' areas were - average.
NS, as a counter-example - as far as I'm concerned - pimped itself far more than CS ever did.Well I don't know about that. I do know you heard about CS on all HL sites, that's a hell of alot of pimping if you ask me. As for how much NS pimped itself off, I don't even know what NS is, what is it?Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
But this idea that the most popular mods got where they were mainly because of their PR is not very accurate to the truth I'm afraid. A good game does NOT have to pimp itself 'to death' to survive. It just needs average amount of 'pimp', and then the quality of the game will speak for itself...First of all, I didn't say you need good PR for the mod to make it. All I said was Lee didn't have good PR but now that I think about it, it's not as bad as I accidently made it seem in that post. Everything else I said still stands though.

Secondly, I also never said "most mods got to where they are" or anything like that. I talked about OmniMod & Duelers a bit but not other JK mods & as for HL mods, I only talked about CS for the most part because for most of the time it was the only at least decent mod for HL.

Anyways, when I was talking about needing to pimp it off, I was referring to JK mods, not HL. It's not anywhere near the same thing for a few reasons (player base, most HL mods are real TC's, etc; etc.). You can't make a mod with even half the caliber of CS without a team of coders, design artists, & other developers & no one in the SW scene is interested in going out of the SW theme. Sad but true. So I have no intention in pursuing something I already know is not going to happen, at least not until everyone else is interested in doing so because it won't happen without the team.

In all reality with AJK, you don't need to make a TC out of it until after all the code is implimented. The visual part of the TC should not be too tough considering most of these weapons are already made for JK & the code implimentation is pretty minor stuff. I would imagine it would be the same for MB or any other mod for that matter but I don't know (no offense but nor am I asking).Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Nope, I haven't. The question is why are there no CS-level type JKII mods out there. Your answer is 'pimp more'. Sorry, but that's just in-correct.That statement right proves exactly what I said the first time. You totally missed the point. The whole "why there are no CS-level" was your interpretation of what I said, not what I actually said. Again, the "pimp more" is aimed towards JK modding, not so much HL because most HL mods are TCs & that right there is eye candy & a ho that pimps itself off wrapped up in one. Most TCs out of JK & MoH are that way (i.e. Quake, Half-Life, etc; etc.). Of course, more pimpin never hurts.

With JK mods, you do need to pimp it off. OmniMod was the posterchild of that concept in JK2. Actually now that I think about it, Duelers didn't do much pimpin at all out of forums so maybe it's not as crucial as I may be making it seem with the whole Duelers & OmniMod comparison thing but any way you look at it, the more pimping off you do the better you are off.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
This is true, of a CS-level mods or any other mod, but your point doesn't get to the heart of the issue. It's a side issue - at best.Actually the "heart of the issue" here is various minor additions for OJP, not why there is no CS level mods for JK. All I was doing, like you said, making some side issues.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
OK - well - this is totally my point. You have to 'aim' to make that kind of mod in the first place.I've already talked with most of the coders & quite a few other developers as well. No one wants to do a real TC - NO ONE. Well, Chosen One is game if he has the time but he wants there to be more staff, Lee has no interest whatsoever in doing this (even when we were on good terms), Razorace may consider doing this at a later time as long as it stays in the SW theme but his existing projects are a higher priority for him, etc; etc. They all want to stay in the SW theme pretty much, so if anything like that is ever going to happen, we have to roll with what everyone else wants for the time being. Then maybe after the main stuff is already implemented, we'll pursue a second generation TC or something, I dunno. Only time will tell.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
THis is, personally, what I am trying to do with Movie Battles II (TBH, this is only a working title. THe name will almost certainly change nearer release time).

Now, will I succeed?! Heh, probably not! But I think JKA is owed at least an attempt by SOMEBODY. And since no-one else is voluentering, I'm stepping up to the plate

..plus, I'm having a blast working on it anyway. So it's worth trying in any case...While I applaud your efforts, the reality of the matter is you can't make a real TC all by yourself & last I checked, MB was still in the SW theme as well so until it goes out of it, it's not a real TC in my book. You can make new gametypes or change existing ones (same concept really, 1 is more going back to default-able than the other) & whatnot but that's exactly what it will be, a new gametype, not a TC. Saying "I'm making a Star Wars movie mod out of a Star Wars game" is not a TC to me man. Saying "I'm making a Kill Bill mod out of a Star Wars game" is making a TC to me. New sounds, new weapons, new maps, etc; etc = THAT's a TC.

While the AotC TC is a real TC, it's still in the SW theme so I don't really consider it one. Technically it is but really it's not. It's like saying chess is a sport, technically yes it is a sport but really it's not. Football, basketball, hockey, etc; etc. = that's a real sport. Same concept.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-05-2003, 11:24 PM
It's somewhat rude to everyone else to continue pursuing it, therefore, this is my last reply on this topic.

Conceeded and agreed.
I have a lot more to say, but I'll agree to end it here.

babywax
12-05-2003, 11:27 PM
Sorry, I haven't read the 3 pages of long posts, so if anything has been suggested before just ignore it.

Maybe you guys could bolt the saber onto the player's waist when they have it off? That would be pretty cool, although it would probably require a new animation.

I don't know if this would be considered too much of a gameplay change for the basic release, but maybe give having your saber off a reason, I was thinking increased force pool regeneration? Right now there is no real reason to turn it off, except for the 'honor' code.

Marker0077
12-06-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Conceeded and agreed.
I have a lot more to say, but I'll agree to end it here. My contact information is in my signature, I'd be more than willing to debate any of this with you but all I was trying to do was express my opinion, not start a debate. If this is something you'd like to discuss further again, my contact info is in my sig & I use ICQ & MSN the majority of the time I am online.Originally posted by babywax
Maybe you guys could bolt the saber onto the player's waist when they have it off? That would be pretty cool, although it would probably require a new animation.I think Razorace already had that in mind but what will actually happen we have yet to see.Originally posted by babywax
I don't know if this would be considered too much of a gameplay change for the basic release, but maybe give having your saber off a reason, I was thinking increased force pool regeneration? Right now there is no real reason to turn it off, except for the 'honor' code.When you have your saber hilted you can run a bit faster; Which is funny to me because I came up with this exact concept already about a year & 1/2 ago when I was modding MoH.

Anyways, Razorace also has a hand to hand combat thing happening with this also, so there's another reason why people would have their saber off.

razorace
12-06-2003, 02:46 AM
Well, I checked the animations and using the current animations should look fine. I'll try messing with it when I get to it.

WhiteShdw
12-06-2003, 10:57 AM
Wouldn't you need like a model tag for the place where you want the saber to be? Or is it possible with the existing setup?

Also, could this be possible with dual sabers style? The way the saberhilt now stays in the left hand looks a bit weird when using only one of the 2 sabers.

Marker0077
12-06-2003, 08:03 PM
Razor, if you do need tags on the player models belts for the "hilts on belt" thing, let me know. I might be getting into the modelling aspect of this sometime in the near future.

razorace
12-07-2003, 01:55 AM
I'd hate to do that unless we have to. Doing so would make the normal player models not work with the system.

Marker0077
12-11-2003, 12:21 AM
not really, we could create a default point for the tag & have it use that. Basically compare all the Ravensoft models & figure what's the best way of going about doing that, or perhaps there's even an existing tag in all models we could roll with.

Worst case scenario, it could show no hilt upon models with no tag which would look a little worse but there is no real disadvantage so I don't see why not.

keshire
12-11-2003, 04:18 AM
These are the tags you'd be interested in.

bolt_hip_l (left)
bolt_hip_r (right)
bolt_hip_bl (back left)
bolt_hip_br
bolt_hip_fl (front Left)
bolt_hip_fr

Six sides of the model at the hip.

If they aren't found and I hope it wouldn't come to that, default back to the original.

Is there a way to offset the model from the bolt?

razorace
12-11-2003, 07:33 AM
Not that I know of...

Well, I suppose you could create "animations" for the sabers that would move them off the origin by a set amount...But that would require every saber to have the same animation set.

keshire
12-11-2003, 07:39 AM
maybe Setup a statement like how the saber throw works?

bolt the saber(s) to a hip bolt.
(during saber off and non ignited "collected" sabers)

move the pos and apos by a certain amount?

would something like that work?

razorace
12-11-2003, 09:07 AM
Well, if you're doing that, you haven't really bolted it to the model. Instead, you've just created a new entity that has to be updated. This wouldn't look right since the saber would lag noticably.

keshire
12-11-2003, 09:08 AM
Ah. Yes your right. I remember that when starting to edit the stick to walls. Don't know what I was thinking.

keshire
12-11-2003, 11:12 AM
If the distance isn't much, will the lag be noticeable?

Plus this should give the advantage of making the coding of pull being useable on them easier correct?

Once you get them to that point it gives them all the properties of a thrown saber. They can be knocked off the belt with a well placed hit. As long as you specify they are "off" you can keep them differentiated correct? Set up a que too.

If in rhand, bolt to hip_r or lhand, then to br, bl, l, fl, and finally fr.

I'm getting ahead of myself though.

razorace
12-11-2003, 07:41 PM
Well, no it wouldn't look right because player models are very unpredictable in terms of movement and because the server fps is very low.

However, you could probably have a flag for the entity that would make it automatically update positioning client side but I think that would be too much effort.