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View Full Version : A 'Non Saber' Dark Forces 3 sequel would SUCK, Right ??


Astrotoy7
11-05-2003, 11:44 AM
There's been a bit of discussion about how use of the saber defines the JK series.

What if LA was smart/stupid enough to make a DARK FORCES 3 - which was non force/ no saber ! Would you play it ??? I would like to say that I'd probably check it out.....eventually, but c'mon man - NO SABER = NO FUN !

Although there will probably never be a DF3, there is Republic Commando.......personally, I cant say I am hugely anticipating it.....(not like I was with JA anyways)


MTFBWYA

Tesla
11-05-2003, 12:52 PM
Well if you think about it, and numbered these games as the Dark Forces series...

Dark Forces
Dark Forces II : Jedi Knight
Dark Forces III : Jedi Knight II : Jedi Outcast
Dark Forces IV : Jedi Knight : Jedi Academy

So really JK2 was DF3, and DF4 is JA. ;)

Personally, im looking forward to Republic Commando, once those lovely screenshots of it are released, im opening photoshop and making myself a wallpaper :p

If they did a new Dark Forces game, im afraid it would be time to drop Katarn and introduce a new characther, someone with no connections with the New Republic, Imperials, and the Force....But i doubt they will have a new DF game, it's been converted into the JK Series, so it wouldn't be a DF Sequel anyway. ;)

Well thats what i think. :D

Sivy
11-05-2003, 12:58 PM
dark forces has gone the way of the jedi and i don't think there's any coming back.
Republic Commando does look very good and i think it will satisfy the 'FPS/ no saber' fans.

Sam Fisher
11-05-2003, 01:57 PM
If there was another Dark Forces game (NF/no saber) I would check it out, but there's no telling if I would like it or not.

BTW, I also am looking forward to Repubulic Commando :D

BawBag™
11-05-2003, 02:42 PM
No sabers = No dueling in Mp = no bowing = no nonsense combat.

Thats a fantastic idea. :)

Prime
11-05-2003, 02:48 PM
I think that the Dark Forces series is about Kyle Katarn, and he has become a Jedi, so I don't want to see it revert to a guns-only game. I really enjoy the lightsaber combat introduced in the series, and would be disappointed if it was removed.

But that being said, I'd love to play another guns-only Star Wars FPS focusing on another character, especially if the timeframe was during the Rebellion.

Originally posted by BawBag?
No sabers = No dueling in Mp = no bowing = no nonsense combat.

Thats a fantastic idea. :) I like sabers, but when you put it that way... :D

BawBag™
11-05-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I like sabers, but when you put it that way... :D
I like the sabers too, but it's just the thought of another strumache. Possbly the reason JA MP has been boinged by me. :(

:cool:

cayqel
11-06-2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Tesla
Well if you think about it, and numbered these games as the Dark Forces series...

Dark Forces
Dark Forces II : Jedi Knight
Dark Forces III : Jedi Knight II : Jedi Outcast
Dark Forces IV : Jedi Knight : Jedi Academy

So really JK2 was DF3, and DF4 is JA. ;)

You didn't follow that through all the way. Using your formual the correct super long title for JKA would be: Dark Forces IV: Jedi Knight III: Jedi Outcast II: Jedi Academy.

Any way, I would be down with a guns only SW game. Like Prime said, if it took place during the Rebelion era that would be a bonus. Maybe even set before ANH, like chronicaling the beginings on the rebelion.

StormHammer
11-06-2003, 01:05 AM
As Prime has already said...the Dark Forces games were really about Kyle Katarn, and his exploits. I seriously doubt they would make a DF3, if for no other reason that not enough new gamers are even aware of the series. I remember some people getting Jedi Outcast, and asking why it was Jedi Knight 2...they'd never heard of the first one.

That's why I think it was a smart move to remove any 'sequel' numbers from the title of Jedi Academy. They could basically make as many Jedi Knight games as they like, all with different stories and characters if need be...and no prior knowledge of the other games in the series would be needed.

I can't see them making another Star Wars FPS until Republic Commando is finalised and released, anyway. RC will be a big test for Lucasarts, to see if they've got the formula right, and if they can get back the gritty development edge for the FPS genre, which they exhibited with the DF games.

txa1265
11-06-2003, 01:40 AM
As Stormhammer said, RepCom is the next cool thing for SW FPS.

I love sabers, love JKII and JA, but would also love a guns based non-Jedi SW game.

I'd also like to get to play some kind of rogue scoundrel character during the rebellion.

Mike

boinga1
11-06-2003, 02:44 AM
If done right, sure, it could be good. If made like the first two JO levels...heck no.

Kurgan
11-06-2003, 02:51 AM
Perhaps we'll see how popular a concept like that could be with UT2k3 mod "Troopers: Dawn of Destiny"?

Anyhow, will people bash Republic Commando for being "a Star Wars Unreal mod?"? (like some people were so quick to bash JA for being a "Star Wars Quake Mod" and a "JK2 expansion?"

After all, it won't have much to distinguish itself from other "Modern" FPS games, with no force or sabers... just the Star Wars liscense.

And just to throw this one in, since it's coming out in another 1-2 years, will people attack RC for not using the Doom3 or Half Life 2 engines?

We'll see....

Taran'atar
11-06-2003, 05:09 AM
If it's done well, sure. The no saber and no force sections of JK and JO were kinda bland though. Just generic first person shooters, with generic futuristic weapons, without even very impressive graphics. The sabers and force powers are what make those games (and JA) worth playing. Not to say that a guns only FPS without the force wouldn't work, but it'd have to be a lot more original and innovative than JO or JA.

Astrotoy7
11-06-2003, 07:35 AM
I might have got the wrong vibe, but my take on Republic Commando was that it is more in the vein of a 'Medal of Honor' type game, but since it is using the Unreal engine i guess this isnt so.....???

I dont know much about the whole FPS genre at all, but the idea of a SW game where all you do is sneak around waiting to snipe scum is just damn boring. I want saberstaff, I want forcelightning and grip, frying, choking and slicing stormies and rancors to the tune of j williams great score !! This is why I am PERFECTLY PLEASED WITH JA !!!

Since RC will give us no sabers - I'd rather play GALAXIES, and check out the moves capped of Calvin Ho from AotS(whoops - wrong thread :p) !!

**goes off to download lucasarts RC trailer to take a squizz**

MTFBWYA

Gabrobot
11-06-2003, 07:54 AM
Well, no one really knows just what Republic Commando will be like...the trailer on Lucasarts site is just a pre-rendered cut scene, and doesn't really show what actual in game gameplay will be like, entirely. Personally, I have a feeling Lucasarts was kind of exaggerating with their "brutally realistic Star Wars combat experience" description in the press release. I have a feeling (or at least hope this is the case) that it'll be more like another Dark Forces game set during the Clone Wars. From what I've seen, "realistic" games like Medal of Honor and Call of Duty have bland uninteresting and ugly environments. One of the things I love about Star Wars, is the huge exotic environments, so I really hope Republic Commando isn't really a realistic game like MoH or CoD.

Oh, and the only official release date I've seen, is summer 2004, not sometime in 2005.

Neverhoodian
11-06-2003, 03:48 PM
As much as I enjoy lightsaber combat, sometimes I get the urge to go cocky-mercenary on some stormies and I'll load up the Dark Forces JO demo or the Dash Rendar:Resurgence level. The thing is that both types of combat (Force-powered saber combat and no-Force guns) give me that "Star Wars" feel, but it's a different type of Star Wars feel. When I'm playing a DF-style Star Wars shooter, It gives me a rush to frantically strafe back and forth trying to dodge blaster bolts (can't deflect them if you have no saber) while blazing away with my blaster. I feel like an elite soldier using only his wits and his blaster (and a fair amount of luck) to outsmart his foes, like Dash Rendar and Han Solo.

When I play as a Jedi wielding a lightsaber, on the other hand, it's an entirely different feeling. I revel in the acrobatic stunts, the Force powers and flashy (yet effective) saber moves. In those instances, I feel like Luke Skywalker on Jabba's sail barge or Mace Windu in the arena, a bada** Jedi who uses the mystical power of the Force to take on the galaxy.

Both are undeniably a part of Star Wars and I like both experiences. Consequently, I wouldn't mind if there was another Star Wars game taken from a purely shooter perspective.

StormHammer
11-06-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Taran'atar
Not to say that a guns only FPS without the force wouldn't work, but it'd have to be a lot more original and innovative than JO or JA.

Let's not forget the original Dark Forces game. No lightsabers in sight there, either, but it was still a very good game.

I think the reason why Dark Forces was so good, was that they managed to capture some of the Star Wars feel in terms of the environments, most of the weapons were good, and the underlying plot was interesting and engaging. It also managed to tie in nicely with the movies, from the first level where you steal the Deathstar plans...to the rescue of Crix Madine, who featured in ROTJ. If they can tie in some events and characters from the Prequel movies into RepCom, then it could most assuredly feel like Star Wars.

I've never really thought of RepCom having the same style as MOH - although I don't have a problem at all with MOH's style of play. I don't think MOH's environments were drab...just realistic, which was what they were trying to portray.

Anyway...the 'look' of the environments would be academic for RepCom because it's based on fantasy, so they can pretty much do as they like. If they can emulate some of the level design exhibited in JK/MotS and DF, then I don't think they'll go far wrong. If they can emulate Deus Ex or NOLF2's Siberia levels, even better. Multiple paths, and a few options for tackling each obstacle would add greatly to the gameplay.

As for it feeling like an 'Unreal mod', I don't think that would be a very convincing argument either. I've played several games that used the Unreal engine (Clive Barker's Undying, Rune, Wheel Of Time, Deus Ex...) and they were all different in style and context. Some other games like Devastation do seem more like 'mods'...but Star Wars is a well-established universe with it's own style and appeal.

I think that what they really need to concentrate on is getting the player movement right, and the selection of weapons and their effects right. Because with an FPS, the focus is on guns, and you need a strong selection from which to choose, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, but also with a fair balance so that you don't simply rely on one or two...

Having played Unreal 2...I remember only having to use one or two weapons all the way through. You could manage with just the standard assault rifle for most enemies - and so there was no incentive to switch to the other weapons in the arsenal. I prefer it when there is a situation where each weapon has a use.

Elite Force 1 and 2 were somewhat let down by the similarity between many of the weapons. Most of them were 'blaster' type weapons, and although they may have had slightly different damage ratios and effects - they still felt quite similar.

So I think they need to come up with some more innovative and creative weapon designs for RepCom - and if that means some standard projectile weapons in the mix...then so be it.

As pointed out - without Force powers and lightsaber combat, the focus and emphasis has to shift back onto the guns. Personally, I would also like to see a melee weapon or two for close quarters. Like the Sand People have their Gaffi Stick - and there is talk of vibroblades in most of the novels. Adding in a few of these up close and personal kinds of weapons could redress some of the balance.

I've recently been playing Enemy Territory and SOF2 MP, and there is a good selection of weapons in those games, that have their advantages and disadvantages. Of course...those are more realistic type weapons - but if they can come up with some decent Star Wars equivalents, then RepCom could be a very good game indeed. As long as the blaster bolts are fast - like the movies - and there are opportunities to obtain different kinds of shielding, I don't see a problem.

The reason why JO's gun levels were not as enjoyable as they could have been is because the blaster bolts travelled so slowly - so it was harder to hit targets. You had to lead your targets and fire a few feet in front of them because the blaster bolts took so long to travel through the air. It was, frankly, ridiculous.

To my mind, a blaster should be more like the Shock Rifle in UT/UT2K3. Not with the combo, or secondary blast...but just the straightforward primary. It's an instant hit weapon - and that's how blasters should be in short to medium range.

Overall, though - I think RepCom can still feel appropriately like Star Wars if they can get the design details right. If the environments look like Star Wars environments, and the tech and potentially vehicles also fit the SW design, then it wil feel like Star Wars. They're bound to mix in the music from the Prequels, and the standard SW theme as well...

Basically, it doesn't have to have lightsabers and Force powers to stil feel unique and like Star Wars. It can still offer a different experience to other FPS games out there...

Astrotoy7
11-07-2003, 06:46 AM
Stormhammer said
Let's not forget the original Dark Forces game. No lightsabers in sight there, either, but it was still a very good game.

Great post Stormie, i've learnt alot about the fps 'genre' reading yours and KURGANs posts...

I dont know what others think, but I just cant handle playing DF anymore, be it on PC or the PSx version. It was great back THEN, but now, c'mon man !! There are great old games that still cut it, like the whole xw/tie series, even rebel assault2 is damn fun, but I cant say this for DF. JKI and MoTS is creeping towards being frustrating, I think this is mainly because I am so used to saber via the q3 engine - and now with JA, the katas and the beautiful animations, well theres just no going back for me.... If you were an fps guns type of person, I think it wouldnt be too perplexing at all to play those older games..... to each their own I guess....

MTFBWYA

Kurgan
11-07-2003, 07:08 AM
The saber combat in JK/MotS is very simplistic compared to JA. Essentially you use two swings (or 1; there are actually quite a few, but they simply aren't necessary to fight with in most situations in MP) and run at each other. It takes skill and timing, but it's definately not nearly as flashy or strategic (with all the combos and such).

However, the sheer SPEED of JK/MotS far outshines that of JA. And it has some well designed maps that are still fun to play even after all this time. But, some people won't play a game unless it pushes the limits of their current video card, so each to his own...