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Prime
11-05-2003, 03:07 PM
Well, which is it? So many conflicting complaints, so many threads devoted to them :)

Akshara
11-05-2003, 03:11 PM
What? There is something wrong with JA?

Master William
11-05-2003, 03:24 PM
Too similar to JO, I would have expected a new game experience. Instead, it felt like playing a modified JK2, which it is. And I don't see other problems than this (as all other whiners do, bohoo cvar this, hitbox that.)

Some people even say JA is dead. lol, talk about having no life

EDIT: Has anyone heard about another expansion pack yet? :p

txa1265
11-05-2003, 03:44 PM
There are two possible interpretations of the question (well, I see two in my mind worth exploring, but I know there are many more)

(1) What is fundamentally 'broken' about JA that makes is a 'meh' or 'crap' game?

My Answer: nothing.

(2) What is problematic about the game that keeps it from being worthy of a 100% rating?

My Answer: several things, such as:
- RPG-lite system lacking
- Not enough civilians
- Too many cutscenes, not enough exploration
- No control over dialogue, no reflection of your actions in the dialogue/cutscenes.
- Force path reduced to one choice. No morality scale
- Weapons loadout is useless
- Inventory management reminds me of NWN's magic bags. (carry it all - no worries!)
- The training level is meager and lacks the dramatic and majestic feel of Jedi Outcast.
- Aside from the training, you spend no time in the Academy.

Oh yeah, while I don't care much at all about MP, it goes without saying that the MP browser is broken.

Still my favorite game, though.

Mike

txa1265
11-05-2003, 03:58 PM
There is a third question nagging me ...

(3) What is it about these forums that makes it increasingly hard for me to be here after release of a JK game?

My answer: after JA, just as after JKII, the average age and maturity has seemed to drop, and the whininess and general doom and gloom (I was still finishing the SP for JKII when some were posting 'JO is dead' and 'Raven patch this OR ELSE' and so on ...)

I suspect that I will drift away more and more, as I did after JKII - not that I ever slowed in my enthusiasm for the game, or the amount I played it - I just got very much worn down coming here and listening to all of the unconstructive PM&G (p*$$ing, moaning and groaning).

BTW - I still love the game, and I apologize to all of those who do not fit that characterization, people I genuinely like such as Prime, StormHammer, Kurgan, Andy, leXX, Anakin, Katarn and so on ... and those like toms who I like to have a nice spirited debate with ...

Mike

Prime
11-05-2003, 05:02 PM
Good points. Allow me to retort :)

Originally posted by txa1265
- RPG-lite system lacking I wouldn't mind having a few more options in the character creation process, but overall I am happy with what is there. Since it is a FPS, I don't care as much about these elements as I do the action. For my RPG fix, I am really looking forward to KOTOR for PC.

Originally posted by txa1265
- Not enough civilians I agree completely. This is one main thing I miss from JK and MOTS. It would add so much to the atmosphere.

Originally posted by txa1265
- Too many cutscenes, not enough exploration I don't mind the cutscenes or number thereof. I would have liked the maps to feel a little less linear. But then again, there were a lot of complaints about people getting stuck with puzzles and such in JO, so I can see why Raven did this.

Originally posted by txa1265
- No control over dialogue, no reflection of your actions in the dialogue/cutscenes. I don't mind this at all really.

Originally posted by txa1265
- Force path reduced to one choice. No morality scale I agree that something like JK's morality scale would have been more "realistic". But without any NPCs, you can't really do that as much, since just about everyone you encounter is a bad guy. The only other thing to base it on is the force powers used.

Originally posted by txa1265
- Weapons loadout is useless
- Inventory management reminds me of NWN's magic bags. (carry it all - no worries!) I thought this was a cool idea that wasn't implemented very well. I liked having to select certain weapons for a mission. But I it seemed pointless since you likely would end up with all the weapons 30 second into a mission anyway, and had room to carry them all. I would much rather have to drop a weapon to pick up a new one if your slots were already filled.

One other minor issue with me was that since I usually end up using the saber and blaster just about all of the time, I didn't really like having to select a rifle and explosives before going on a mission.

Originally posted by txa1265
- The training level is meager and lacks the dramatic and majestic feel of Jedi Outcast. The JO one was more involved, but I'm happy it didn't take too long to do in JA. Get to the action! :D

Originally posted by txa1265
- Aside from the training, you spend no time in the Academy. True, apart from the cutscenes. It might have been kind of neat to have a "mission" available where you could practice lightsaber skills or whatever. Other than that, I'm just as happy to be out roaming the galaxy.

Originally posted by txa1265
Oh yeah, while I don't care much at all about MP, it goes without saying that the MP browser is broken. To me, this is the single most damaging issue in JA.

StormHammer
11-05-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by txa1265
I suspect that I will drift away more and more, as I did after JKII - not that I ever slowed in my enthusiasm for the game, or the amount I played it - I just got very much worn down coming here and listening to all of the unconstructive PM&G (p*$$ing, moaning and groaning).

BTW - I still love the game, and I apologize to all of those who do not fit that characterization, people I genuinely like such as Prime, StormHammer, Kurgan, Andy, leXX, Anakin, Katarn and so on ... and those like toms who I like to have a nice spirited debate with ...

Mike

Well...that's unfortunate, Mike, and I'm sorry these whiners are starting to get to you. :/ I hope you don't drift away too much, because you've always made intelligent posts, and argued your case very well. In a way, you could say you've brought 'balance to the posts'. Hehe. ;)

Anyway, I can understand your POV, and by all means take a break. You know where to find us when you want a reasoned debate. ;) And there's always Republic Commando to look forward to.


As for the original question at the top of the thread...I don't think JA's 'problem' is related to any of those in the poll. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't similar to JK2, IMHO. The only 'problem' I can see with the game is what I've stated before. It lacks some depth, and some of the tier missions are a bit weak. It could have used some extra spit and polish, because to me it feels a bit unfinished. It's still a good game, though - and MP is a blast.

txa1265
11-05-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Well...that's unfortunate, Mike, and I'm sorry these whiners are starting to get to you. :/ I hope you don't drift away too much, because you've always made intelligent posts, and argued your case very well. In a way, you could say you've brought 'balance to the posts'. Hehe. ;)

Anyway, I can understand your POV, and by all means take a break. You know where to find us when you want a reasoned debate. ;) And there's always Republic Commando to look forward to.
Oh, I'm not going anywhere :) I just have found myself involved less frequently in discussions - I think that I was really bothered when JKII came out, so I'm being smarter about it this time around, so I can still find cool stuff to talk about (like this).

i think that my self-imposed exile from when the game demo was released until I picked it up myself on Sept 17th really helped. All the piracy stuff was a drag.

And I am looking forward to the Clone Wars equivalent of MoH or CoD - being a cog in the machinery, battling it out with no special (i.e. Jedi) advantages. Dark. Gritty. Bring it on ;)

Mike

Mr.Biggl3sw0rth
11-05-2003, 05:28 PM
The trouble I found is JA is too like JO in so many ways that it feels and plays like an expansion.


However, JA took several aspect of JO out and imo has taken a lot of the challenge, variety and playability from the game.
They replaced many removed aspects with just a few new things. Its my opinion that this game in fact has less variety in terms of attacking and defending than JO did. And for a sequal, I think for that to happen is very poor. (Although not advertised as a sequel, the game followups after the end of the JO storyline, so therefore is a sequel).

They did however, manage to leave us with the same old bugs (some which were even present in JO). Good Job there.

ff s/o gametypes are now pointless and unplayable. You can continually drain back health faster than it can be taken. Also, there is no way to 'catch' someone anymore. If they want to run away from you, you won't ever be able to stop them.

I realise that most people play at a low level though, so won't recognise these problems, but there you go.

GJ Raven.

txa1265
11-05-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Good points. Allow me to retort :)

I'm going to retort your retorts ;) But instead of going point by point, I realized there is a theme to my original, so I'll just stick to that ...

RPG-Lite: In my opinion, Jedi Academy could have been the best FPS/RPG ever. Better than JK, better than DX. Best.
So what did it need to get there?
- Put you in control of dialogue.
- Allow you a 'home base' with exploration.
- Make *all* of your decisions matter to your Force alignment. That would have required a functional stealth capablity, with 'area effect' mind trick working correctly, so you could trick out a squad of troops and just sneak past. It isn't just killing civilians - whether you killed 87/87 and got all of your objectives versus killing 30/87 and still getting the job done should matter as well. It should also matter if you saber people or drain the life out of them - let's face it, a cruel torturous death is Dark Side.
- More in-game customization. I think that they should have stuck with different characters starting with different stances (skills) and each species having a specialization. Then allow you - maybe at the time when you get stances, you should be able to further specialize. By the end you could be a master of stealth, for instance, sneaking around and back-stabbing Reborn ...
- No 'single point' decision. Not that you can't redeem yourself, but by decision time you should either be Light, Neutral or Dark. If you are light it should be a shock to choose the dark path, likewise if you are dark and choose the way of lightness. The decision sequence in the game should only play out if you are neutral.

Look - I don't want JA to be KOTOR, and very little about the game would be changed by my suggestions. It would just make Jaden more *your* character.

Also - weapons and inventory. In SoFII you could choose to take basically nothing. I have played through using nothing but saber and DL-44. Most times I use the sniper once or twice, and the concussion once or twice, but last time through - and this time so far - I've beeen pure. Except that I have about 12 weapons and 3 explosives on my belt.

I would like to see the inventory system I saw in the Chrome demo (didn't like the demo muc ... not worth $50 to me). You manually search bodies, and have to choose to pick up that which will fit in your inventory. I'd like them to pitch the dedicated Shield and Weapon charge stations in exhange for a general 'energy' terminal, and make you decide what to charge, and then only have health and shield pickups on bodies ... but that is getting out there ...

Finally, I just have to say that the Yavin training in Jedi Outcast was a real catharsis to me - one of my favorite levels on any game ever. The mood, the music, getting the force powers ... perfect. Since JA has it at the beginning, you cannot expect the same feeling, but it could have been much more involved. A few more tasks, more difficult ... but then too many people probably complained about how hard it was to get the saber from the cage.

... on a tie-together note, I like the cutscene of Rosh releasing the saber-droid, but at the end of training, it would have been a perfect time for 'RPG-lite dialogue choice'. Neutral would have been teh dialogue as done, light could have been 'of course I forgive you, just remember we're stronger if we work together', and dark could have been 'I should have sliced you the first time you annoyed me on that transport ...' :D

Mike

Tyler_Durden
11-05-2003, 06:28 PM
For me it is the fact that this game just feels rushed. And a key feature that was in JO is not here either which radically changes the gameplay for me as well, yeah it is the first person perspective with the saber, and no /cg_fpls 1 doesn't apply here. I'm talking about SP exclusively as MP is an entity i don't care for. I have been very vocal about this as i really enjoyed it in JO but for some reason it seems the developer didn't take those of us who play in that style into consideration and made the game according to the way they themselves play and others who were vocal about third person as well. Now having played JO one would assume the feature would be in this game as well, however to my detriment it wasn't. Raven didn't say this feature was in the game either, i know, but then again i don't remember them saying it was in JO either. No it was just there and that's the way i liked it. After having played JO SP about ten times with mods and everything the game got better and better. I could actually see up close that saber hilt that i downloaded in detail. Whereas with this game you really can't see it that much as your body is in the way. A lot of people really like the third person view, i'm not one of them, i prefer to play that way. Other people play in third, and that's cool. I don't make it a point to go into other people's threads and say "why play in third, first is way better." Everybody has their own style of play and raven should have acknowledged this thing when they developed this game.

Other things i hate is the fact that this game runs like a snail on my system where other games that are far better in terms of graphics run like a dream. Everyone says a patch is ready, so where is it? I also hear a lot of talk that lucasarts is delaying the patch. Why would they want to lose money when they know their game isn't running smoothly? So the president quit, hell, they have a vice president who probably just got promoted. What's the problem?

The game engine also kind of sucks in my mind. I wanted to see more npc's and large, populated areas. But there's not a soul other than your enemies to be found. I really liked the baron's head level in JK where there were people running around getting out of the way when enemies shot at you and stuff. It was great and very immersive as well.

In the end this game was just ok. I didn't see a lot of improvement from JO other than the skins and the slightly higher res details here and there. Level design was a little better, but a lot of the levels just seemed like filler as if the team didn't have any really fresh ideas to throw into this game other than to feature a few faces from the movies.

For the next game i would like to see a better engine that can render more people without slowdown. A grander story which takes place along more worlds, most of which have never been seen or only mentioned. Also have the game be totally original in that it doesn't make any references to the movies or the eu, but just a self contained story that is undeniably star wars. And a patch here and there when necessary would be awesome.

babywax
11-06-2003, 02:35 AM
The biggest thing I think wrong with JA is that sabers just don't feel smooth like they did in JO. I don't feel like I'm continuing an attack, I feel like I attack, then I glitch then I attack. I don't know what is wrong with it though, it doesn't feel that way in SP but it feels like that almost the entire time in MP. Is this just me?

cheeto101
11-06-2003, 05:02 AM
The Lack of FMV, i miss seein an actual person representing kyle like in jk. Gave the story expression and character

anndddd

The Lack of cool jedi enemies, i mean, Desann=Giant Dinosaur with a sword??? Tavion= Chick with awful hair whos more whiney then hayden christiansen (or however his name is spelled)

Dear god, what happened to the good ol days when a bad ass blind jedi was killin your dad with his posse of 6 other dark jedi. It was just more cool.

Astrotoy7
11-06-2003, 06:42 AM
Prime posts a poll ! Gotta get a vote in !

I like the ways the numbers are panning. It will hopefully prove that the whiners are the louder minority, and NOT the reason Raven graced us with this fun game to begin with.....

I cant be bothered knitpickin, because the things I 'dont like' do not make the game any less fun on the whole, and for most instances can be tweaked via the console.


MTFBWYA

txa1265
11-06-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
Prime posts a poll ! Gotta get a vote in !

I like the ways the numbers are panning. It will hopefully prove that the whiners are the louder minority, and NOT the reason Raven graced us with this fun game to begin with.....

I cant be bothered knitpickin, because the things I 'dont like' do not make the game any less fun on the whole, and for most instances can be tweaked via the console.


MTFBWYA That is the way it *always* is - and not just with games. I have had major initiatives that management has spent hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars quashed due to the irrational whining of the vocal minority.

And I don't mind nitpicking the issues I have with the game - in fact, the more detailed the better. Sometimes it is just feelings, like that MoHAA just 'feels' tighter than RtCW, but most times it is specific and can be detailed and discussed rationally by reasonable people, and that is the fun of these forums for me.

Mike

Sam Fisher
11-06-2003, 11:28 AM
As William said, its just to similer to JO, the graphics, the gamepaly, the saber clipping.... But tis a very game anyway :)

Prime
11-06-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
but for some reason it seems the developer didn't take those of us who play in that style into consideration and made the game according to the way they themselves play and others who were vocal about third person as well. They did take it into consideration, but due the the fact that it would require a lot more work than it did in JO, they felt that the time and resources required were too great. They didn't do it to stick it to you :)

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
The game engine also kind of sucks in my mind. I wanted to see more npc's and large, populated areas. I would love to have more NPCs as well. However, this is not an issue with the engine.

Tyler_Durden
11-06-2003, 04:26 PM
Actually i do think it is an engine issue that prevents too many npc's form being on the screen. I've tested it with radiant, i've tried placing about 6 npc's in a map area, which is fairly open with architecture using detail brushes. Along with six other enemy npc's. The game slows down big time. I was trying to think of a way for the game to not render the npc's when you don't see them but once you trigger them on, they stay until you or the enemy kills them.

babywax
11-06-2003, 04:27 PM
Start a MP game, devmap to some map.
Type in the console "npc spawn luke"
then move a little, and type the same thing (in the console of course)
repeat a bunch of times. Does it lag?

txa1265
11-06-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I don't mind the cutscenes or number thereof. I would have liked the maps to feel a little less linear. But then again, there were a lot of complaints about people getting stuck with puzzles and such in JO, so I can see why Raven did this. OK, I thought of a specific instance where a cutscene was put in that was completely unnecessary and did nothing but take you out of the game.

In the Swoop level, when you actually go to meet the contact. Why did they need a cutscene to have you walk up to the contact, see him die and then run into the next door? You were on the ledge - simply have him come out - if you got close you would engage a dialogue, and then they script him getting whacked, then you have to run to the next door or die yourself ...


Mike

eniaC
11-06-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Akshara
What? There is something wrong with JA?
ditto

GreenSmoke
11-06-2003, 06:57 PM
id say the worst thing about JA is that when i really gotta poop (after oatmeal and milk) i cant play in bathroom which is a real big problem cuz sometimes i take really long poops (OMG!!) but maybe thats blessing in disguise cuz sometimes i even splatter explosive diarrhea everywhere and if it got on my disk id have to pirate another one

starstorm971
11-06-2003, 07:01 PM
There are only a few problems

1. Far too short, should have a few more missions, like the missions Kyle mentioned to Jaden when you choose the Light Side, and possibly a few missions if you chose the Dark Side as Kyle, searching for Jaden.

2. The Plot is similiar to Jedi Outcast: Taking the force and using it to empower their followers, Jedi Academy just added also to resurect Marka Ragnos.

Prime
11-06-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by txa1265
OK, I thought of a specific instance where a cutscene was put in that was completely unnecessary and did nothing but take you out of the game.

In the Swoop level, when you actually go to meet the contact. Why did they need a cutscene to have you walk up to the contact, see him die and then run into the next door? You were on the ledge - simply have him come out - if you got close you would engage a dialogue, and then they script him getting whacked, then you have to run to the next door or die yourself ...


Mike An interesting example, and I see what you are saying. So basically, you want the much of the information/action taken from cutscenes and added to the gameplay. That would be pretty cool.

txa1265
11-06-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Prime
An interesting example, and I see what you are saying. So basically, you want the much of the information/action taken from cutscenes and added to the gameplay. That would be pretty cool. Yes. I seem to keep referring back to Elite Force II, which has many cool features for such a mediocre game ...

When you are questioning a certain bad guy (a Ferengi) you can move yourself in a limited sense, and you choose what is said. JA would have done that with a cutscene. Both impart the same information, but while one is immersive, the othr is a disengaging movie.

Mike

JDKnite188
11-06-2003, 08:36 PM
Why are we talking about the problems of JA in comparision to JO?

majortom1969
11-06-2003, 10:48 PM
well im very pleased with JA
SIEGE SIEGE SIEGE
is the only thing i play now :D

Prime
11-07-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by JDKnite188
Why are we talking about the problems of JA in comparision to JO? To some extent. It is really just seeing how people feel about JA in general. I put the JO comparison in the poll because that seems to be where most of the opinions are arrived from.

AxVegetA
11-07-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Master William
Too similar to JO, I would have expected a new game experience. Instead, it felt like playing a modified JK2, which it is. And I don't see other problems than this (as all other whiners do, bohoo cvar this, hitbox that.)

I agree with every word u said william, this is sadly true, but still thats not a problem. I love the game, its well balanced and its fun as hell.
I hope the patch fixes all the bugs, the hit detection problems and enable gloat, flourish, bow, sit and meditate in every mode.

shukrallah
11-08-2003, 02:48 AM
OK, I thought of a specific instance where a cutscene was put in that was completely unnecessary and did nothing but take you out of the game.

spoiler:

In the Swoop level, when you actually go to meet the contact. Why did they need a cutscene to have you walk up to the contact, see him die and then run into the next door? You were on the ledge - simply have him come out - if you got close you would engage a dialogue, and then they script him getting whacked, then you have to run to the next door or die yourself ...



Yeah, but they want to make sure you see what they want you to see, and they dont want the player to interfere with the story line. Now, they could just "lock" the player, which is a pretty simple task, but you could still look away from what they want you to look at.

But yeah, that choose your gun thing is kinda of pointless... they should have just left it out, or made it better...


look at it this way, from what i have heard the patch is possibly coming out in the new year, thats about 1 1/2 months away... so they have plenty of time to add to the patch... more customisation, levels, bug fixes etc... (my poor 56k) :(

Novelle Tion
11-08-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by GreenSmoke
id say the worst thing about JA is that when i really gotta poop (after oatmeal and milk) i cant play in bathroom which is a real big problem cuz sometimes i take really long poops (OMG!!) but maybe thats blessing in disguise cuz sometimes i even splatter explosive diarrhea everywhere and if it got on my disk id have to pirate another one

To address the former problem mentioned you need more insoluble fiber in your diet to help push your food through your entire gastrointestinal tract. Wheat products are a good source of insoluble fiber.

Pie™
11-08-2003, 10:29 PM
too little have changed since JO, especially the graphics :(

also the sp part is WAY too short, even if you do all the missions... :mad:

Master William
11-09-2003, 01:24 AM
Thanks for agreeing with me... Sorry but...

id say the worst thing about JA is that when i really gotta poop (after oatmeal and milk) i cant play in bathroom which is a real big problem cuz sometimes i take really long poops (OMG!!) but maybe thats blessing in disguise cuz sometimes i even splatter explosive diarrhea everywhere and if it got on my disk id have to pirate another one

that post just made me laugh, really. LOL, I will have it in my signature.

And again,

LOL.

To address the former problem mentioned you need more insoluble fiber in your diet to help push your food through your entire gastrointestinal tract. Wheat products are a good source of insoluble fiber

MAN, this laughing never ends

*runs away laughing*

Akshara
11-09-2003, 01:35 AM
Ha! Just stopped in here to look at the Poll results... impressive... mOst impressive...

txa1265
11-09-2003, 02:12 AM
OK ... a new problem ...

I can't have access to it for a week. I'm traveling, and need to bring my basic business PC and my Mac. So unfortunately that means my Inspiron 5150 stays home ... no JA Sunday through Thursday ...

... on the good side, the PC *can* run JK (it is an ultra-lite Dell), and I have JO and Dark Forces on the Mac ... so my saber & SW fix can be satiated - but I think I'll be playing NWN most of my free time.)

Mike

Prime
11-10-2003, 06:27 PM
Interesting results that kind of confirmed what I suspected. It seems that Raven had an impossible task set before them. Some people wanted a game that was completely new with little connection to JO, and others wanted the gameplay to be almost exactly like JO. They weren't going to please both camps.

There was no way to win, so they had to try and please as many people as possible. And from the poll results, they seem to have done that to a large extent.

I'm not trying to say that there aren't issues with the game and that there are no flaws. I'm trying to show that Raven did a good job providing a fun game for the majority of players with the resources/time constraints that they had.

So, thanks for a fun game, Raven. Now fix that browser bug :)

Master_Keralys
11-10-2003, 07:06 PM
I love the gameplay changes. I am glad that it still feels like JO in some ways, but it would have been nice to have some bigger differences than just the lightsaber additions. I must agree with those who note that being able to take only three extra weapons but then get as many as you want after that was kind of strange...

I enjoyed the SP but some of the missions were just too short. Moreover, less linear environments would have been very nice. Not to complain, but when there's only one way to go, it doesn't feel like the real world. And if you couldn't figure out the puzzles in JO, you could get someone to help you... they weren't that hard, anyway.

The only big change besides what I've already said would be to see more of the customizability and RPG-ishness. It would be very nice to have more NPC's and have your actions determine your future instead of one moment in time. As far as that goes, Anakin had been involved with the dark side before he began his fall on Tatooine. He'd been involved since Rogue Planet, when he was twelve, and he'd heard about the Sith back on Tatooine at an even younger age.

DarthButt
11-10-2003, 09:24 PM
My only and biggest dissapointment in the game is that it lacks realism, for two reasons:

1. I don't recall anywhere in any of the movies where a dark Jedi could glow red and have red light shooting from him/her. And the force push/pull bubble (yes I know you can turn it off with a console command) is kinda corny. These things look just a little too cartoonish for me.

2. Weapons are not nearly powerful enough in SP. I find it amazing that a storm trooper can take a blast deflected by my lightsaber to his face (a black mark is even left on his face) and he is still running around shooting at me. Also, if I remember correctly, a lightsaber can cut through *anything* except another lightsaber blade, so I am dissapointed to see a bad guy taking a direct slice to the gut is still standing there shooting at me and I have to slice him one or two more times to kill him.

JO was more realistic in these aspects. Otherwise I love the game. The additions txa1265 suggested would be great as well.