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View Full Version : semi rant about MP...sort of.


I am the Boo
11-11-2003, 07:20 PM
I played JO multi for a month or two before I went on to other things, and picked up JA on release, and have been playing it constantly...the main reason being the Chop Shop servers. Fast force regen and 1 hit saber kills make the game seem a lot more like the epic jedi battles I want when I play. *note* I am NOT bashing any servers or players, I am just stating my opinion on gameplay elements.

Well, I logged into a regular ctf server and was sorely dissapointed in what I saw. So I logged into another and it was the same thing. God knows I'm probably going to piss off some of the "good" players with what I'm about to say, but this is how I feel and I wanted to express it.

These were standard servers running ctf, no mods to force or saber, and it was nothing but a rocket fest. People running around with strafe jumps, rocketing eachother. I couldn't help but think how completely unstarwarsy (new word yall, it'll be on the SAT I promise!) the whole thing felt. The force was just jump and speed, with the rare use of absorb and pull. How could THIS type of play be considered a battle of Jedi? Call me naive, but I expect a game about JEDI, to have JEDI type battles.

Last time I checked, Yoda didn't pull out a launcher and let a salvo go at Dooku in their fight, and Windu didn't drop his saber to strafe jump past a battle droid and drop a TD on it's head. I really doubt that the emperor thought "HAH, I bet if if I blast that whiney farm boy with this repeater's secondary pulse a time or two, he'll give in" Now I'm not knocking guns, because I use them a lot, and they SHOULD be in the game, but they should NEVER be a better alternative than the force wielding saber user. I mean for god's sake, the only jedi you see USE a gun was Luke in Empire and that's cause he SUCKED at being a Jedi!

I'm sorry, but this style of gameplay is simply Turbo-Quake. Why on earth would that EVER be considered good gameplay for a game about Jedi?? I expect a battle of flying leaps, flips, rolls, flashing sabers, and powers being used to give advantage, or to take away advantage....sure guns are there too, but why would they EVER take a higher slot in the chain than a lightsaber?!

Someone tell me why, please! We're all star wars fans, at least to some degree...am I just nuts, or can anyone see what I'm saying?

Who was right, Han Solo: "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. "

Or Vader: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. "

eniaC
11-11-2003, 07:57 PM
There are more than just jedi's in the SW universe.
ie: mercs. bounty hunters, smugglers, scoundrels, and scruffy nerf herders. ; )

Kurgan
11-11-2003, 09:09 PM
Don't forget Kyle Katarn.

The fact is, the series is BUILT on Kyle, and he is a guy who was great with guns and then found out he had the Force. ; )

Combine the two and you have what we have now.

A gun slinger like Han Solo or Dash Rendar might be pretty impressive, but nothing compared to a Jedi in combat. Now give a Jedi the marksmanship and gun skills and he's going to be greater than any non-force sensitive gunner. Logical, no?

Kyle represents a new breed of warrior from a time when the galaxy is facing greater and greater threats and with fewer Jedi to do it. They can't always rely on formality and tradition with "sabers only" and walking around in their flowing robes and meditating all the time. It might not have the same mystique as the prequels, but it's not meant to.

Rember that was back in the days when Jedi were basically just glorified policemen and diplomats. They didn't have to fight wars and pull mercenary duty.

Your individual playing style might be sabers+force = l337, but don't knock the Force Gunners, because that's how the series has been since JK1.

You can always play on a sabers only server if you want "Jedi battles."

In fact, the style of gameplay you seem to be wanting (Jedi beat gunners) is more akin to "Jedi Master" in JK2 than anything in JA. Too bad that mode isn't available in JA, but maybe somebody will port it?

shukrallah
11-11-2003, 11:26 PM
well, im sure its in JA, just not available. Raven knew Jedi Master and Holocron and capture the ysalamari had/has 0 servers... well maybe 2-3. I think they didnt want to bother wasting there time making maps for it, just for them to be wasted. I doubt many people would play that for JA either... so they just removed the options from the menu, not the actuall code. Theres probably a code to get this activated (g_gametype...???)

and scruffy nerf herders. ; )

Anyone hear the really sweet star wars gangsta rap :D


uncle owen, i know im on probation, i cleaned the droids can i go to tochi station? I gatta lay away on my power converters, but now your treating me like a scruffy nerf herder

lol... i love that rap... only rap i listed to.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-11-2003, 11:32 PM
Thank you for your kind words, I am the Boo:)

Instead of Jedimaster, what he is describing is more like the little-known and little-used Jedi vs. Merc option. I know KaiaSowapit is running it on his server.

Would there be any interest in Jedi vs. Merc CTF? By setting

g_jediVmerc "1"
g_gametype "8"

you would have CTF games where players in addition to choosing teams had to choose to be either Jedi or Mercenaries:

JEDI: has a lightsaber and can use the Force (only light or dark as usual) but can't use any other weapons (i.e. guns or explosives).

MERCS: no lightsaber or Force powers, but spawns with several weapons and ammo, and can use any weapon or explosive she picks up. (JK2 Dueler's Mod also allowed you to give jetpacks and grappling hooks to Mercs).

Theoretically you could have teams composed of Light Jedi, Dark Jedi, and Mercenaries. Mercenaries wouldn't have Force but could still strafe jump for speed. Turn up the saber damage and force regeneration a little (probably less than Chop Shop or else the Jedi would have too much advantage) for balance, and you could have truly incredible almost Siege-like CTF games, with the multiple roles and capabilities of the three types of players. Maybe the FF S/O crowd would still turn their noses up at it, but it could form the basis of a fun non-TWL league.

Kurgan
11-11-2003, 11:54 PM
I haven't tried it in 1.01, but when I tried Jedi Vs. Merc (I had the same idea as you Amidala) in JA 1.0 it was frought with problems.

First off, no matter what team I joined, I had a non team skin. As a result my own teammates would attack me sometimes as well as the enemy.

: (

So apparenly there's some bugs with it in JA, again this may have been fixed in the patch I don't know.

The other thing about Jedi Vs. Merc is that the Mercs simply are very very weak. No Force, and only blaster type weapons to start with. The Jedi thus have a HUGE advantage over them for the most part. Having player classes like this works better in Siege because the Jedi aren't usually "uber" and have distinct disadvantages built in for balance sake.

For example the fact that the Merc's have no defense against grip or lightning (they just have to hope they can take out the Jedi from long range, who of course has powers like speed and jump). All of his weapons can be taken away except for his pistol (and fists, or in the case of JK2 the stun baton) leaving him practically defensless.

I think there is a reason Jedi Vs. Merc is "unsupported" and "hidden." That's not to say you can't enjoy it, but I see those as fatal flaws. You'd be better off making a mod to create your own classes or tweak the existing ones (sort of like ProMod did).

I am the Boo
11-11-2003, 11:56 PM
Thanks for the replies.

While I do agree that Kyle is the basis for the series, and he does bring a completely new...or incredibly old school depending on your galactic perspective, syle to the mix, the series itself is not dedicated just to Kyle. It's dedicated to Jedi Knights.

While Kyle is a character in each episode, he isn't always the main character, especially in this last game, which is dedicated entirely to a fledgling knight, Jaden, and let's not forget Mara in MOTS.

I can accept that the few jedi have to step up to the plate and go no holds barred for the galaxy...it makes sense that they have to do what they have to do. I guess I'm just too much of a SW nerd :D

As for the Jedi Vs Mercs that Ami mentioned....I would LOVE to give that a try! If I knew anything about making mods or level designing, I'd jump into it hardcore to make a ctf version too....unfortunately I screwed up the "even reject 3d artistwannabenewbies can make this" level creation walkthrough lol

shukrallah
11-12-2003, 12:05 AM
Even if you did make a level, it wouldnt matter, the level its self is just something to walk on... it doesnt nessessarily control the players weapons... or what you want. If you need help with map making, id recommend this tutorial: http://richdiesal.jedioutcastmaps.com/tutorials/

i know its for jk2, but its almost exactly the same! And its almost impossible to screw up the first 6 tutorials... they are very easy to understand. Its how i started mapping. Now then, id recommend going to the JA mapping forum for more advanced questions on mapping... that is, if you even want to map.

I am the Boo
11-12-2003, 12:11 AM
thanks luke, I'll be sure to check that out! I recently ran smack into LOADS of spare time and have been wanting to learn something fun as a spare time sponge :D

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-12-2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I haven't tried it in 1.01, but when I tried Jedi Vs. Merc (I had the same idea as you Amidala) in JA 1.0 it was frought with problems.

First off, no matter what team I joined, I had a non team skin. As a result my own teammates would attack me sometimes as well as the enemy.

: (

So apparenly there's some bugs with it in JA, again this may have been fixed in the patch I don't know.

The other thing about Jedi Vs. Merc is that the Mercs simply are very very weak. No Force, and only blaster type weapons to start with. The Jedi thus have a HUGE advantage over them for the most part. Having player classes like this works better in Siege because the Jedi aren't usually "uber" and have distinct disadvantages built in for balance sake.

For example the fact that the Merc's have no defense against grip or lightning (they just have to hope they can take out the Jedi from long range, who of course has powers like speed and jump). All of his weapons can be taken away except for his pistol (and fists, or in the case of JK2 the stun baton) leaving him practically defensless.

I think there is a reason Jedi Vs. Merc is "unsupported" and "hidden." That's not to say you can't enjoy it, but I see those as fatal flaws. You'd be better off making a mod to create your own classes or tweak the existing ones (sort of like ProMod did).

All great observations. So it sounds for balance sake Dark Jedi are out, you could still have Light Jedi vs. Mercs. Wise choices with g_forcepowerdisable, g_saberdamagescale, and g_forceregentime for balance would be crucial. So disable all Dark Powers, Pull, maybe Mind Trick, maybe Saber Defense. Saber damage and Force regeneration set at default. g_debugmelee 1 so Mercs can punch, kick, and grapple. I think a good strafe-jumping rocketeer could hold his own against Light Jedi like that.

Samuel Dravis
11-12-2003, 12:18 AM
Look here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117165) for more info on hidden MP gametypes.

Kurgan
11-12-2003, 09:25 AM
Yeah I tried those, but sadly none of them worked except g_gametype 5 ("GT_SINGLE_PLAYER "single player ffa") which made a guy I was playing with and myself invincible while we were dueling... heh, that was pretty silly.

I'm sure with the SDK and some map tweaking it could be done.

The fact is that Jedi Master only requires placement of a saber and Holocron just placing the holocrons around. Both modes just used the default FFA maps in JK2. CTY would just replace the two flags in a CTF map.

Perhaps as a start somebody could work to convert the JK2 Jedi Master/Holocron and CTY maps...?

JedivsMerc could also use some major tweaking. Don't try it on Siege.. it totally messes things up! (imagine Chewie with a saber but no force powers)

I wouldn't mind seeing those. Interesting thread over there btw...

KaiaSowapit
11-12-2003, 09:56 AM
Thanks for the nod Amidala. :)

Yeah I guess I'm a Star Wars nerd too (well definitely a nerd at least), as seeing Jedi swap from lightsabers to rocket launchers has always irked me. I've been a fan of Merc vs. Jedi mode ever since stumbling on to it; if nothing else I prefer spawning with my saber enabled by default rather than the lowly Bryar.

Kurgan raises some good points though regarding the current imbalance between Jedi & Mercs. [sigh] I miss ForceMod; it had a wonderful server option to amp up blaster damage radically, putting Mercs on even footing AND giving Jedi a real incentive to invest in Saber Defense. Rest assured as soon as the SDK is released, I will be petitioning the modding community to restore a similar functionality to JA. (Instagib rocks! :D)

Till then, Amidala made some good suggestions, though personally I'm always hesitant to use weapon/force disable because it appears in the browser as if ALL weapons/force powers have been disabled. :( Another option is to lower the server's Force Mastery setting (g_maxforcerank) so that Light/Dark Jedi have to economize which powers they choose... just be prepared for an onslaught of whiney Jedi complaining they can't max everything out. ;)

theguyincorner
11-13-2003, 04:22 PM
Ami pointed me to this thread, I don't typicaly come here I mean after all i had to make this username... But I fully agree with Boo it's so annoying to here people say that Chop Shop is a "newbie-server" simply because sabers actualy do something. I'm just happy to see some people have the same opinion as me :D

hope to see you guys on chop shop soon (I think i have seen you boo... if you play under BooBoo or something similer)

oh btw I am RED-5 if ya see me

Lathain Valtiel
11-13-2003, 04:27 PM
Ah yes, deadly gunners on Kaia's server were so dangerous it wasn't funny. (Ignore HSoldier, that was overkill.) However Kaia, I also think that the gunners on your server now are subpar. I haven't seen one who can shoot and kill me past my block with a charged Blastech while in midair. Trust me, lately you've been getting the bad gunners. Great Mercs would likely wipe the floor with us.