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View Full Version : Did Kyle make a mistake in Jedi Outcast? *JEDI ACADEMY STORY SPOILERS*


Burrie
11-14-2003, 10:56 PM
I'd like to start a discussion about an important decision Kyle made in Jedi Outcast. Namely sparing Tavion's life and letting her go free on Cloud City. In your opinion, did he do the right thing here or not?

(the following paragraphs describe Tavion's actions throughout Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. If you don't want to read it all, then head towards the paragraph starting with 'Why did I give this detailed background/essay on her?' near the end of this post)

First a bit of background information on Tavion : [url=http://lucasarts.com/products/outcast/html/spin.html]The NRI report on 31th of January 2002[/link] speaks of a force-wielding female criminal near Lenico. I think that we can safely assume that this is Tavion. Presumably, she used her powers for several criminal gains but might've been nothing more than a thief. That is, until she met the Dark Jedi Desann. Becoming his lieutenant, Tavion must've enjoyed quite a lot of power for herself and probably learned a lot from the Jedi Outcast. Everything seemed to be going according to plan for Desann and Tavion until she faced off with a Kyle Katarn whom recently reacquired his Force Powers with the Valley of the Jedi and probably had revenge on his mind.

Kyle and Tavion were almost evenly matched, but in the end, she was finally beaten by Katarn. When she was on his knees, Kyle summoned up the Dark Side, grabbing Tavion in choke hold and held her over the cloud of Bespin. Pleading for her life, Tavion revealed that Kyle's partner, Jan Ors(whom was the very subject of Kyle's revenge), was still alive and told him where he could find her. When Kyle inquired why he should believe her, she uttered a single line.

"Because I am not brave enough to die..."

The following choice that Kyle made would have major and dire consequences for the galaxy and could've actually plunged it into total darkness, even more darkness that the Yuuzhan Vong invasion brought.

In an act of compassion, Kyle brought her back on a safe ledge. Telling her to get out of his sight(judging from his voice, I always felt that it was against Kyle's better judgement that he let her go), she quickly retreated and wasn't seen again in the rest of Kyle's campaign against the forces of Desann. Katarn went on to travel to the Lenico Belt, save Jan Ors, and play an important part in Desann's attack on Yavin IV, facing the Dark Jedi in a climatic battle in a Yavin temple and effectively killed him. When it came to Tavion, she was presumably gone and would never play a part in the Galaxy's history again.

Unfortunately, that was not the case.

Tavion went on to try and get what she could from the Imperial Remnant. She gathered what was left of Desann's Reborn and probably hooked up with several mercenary contacts from her past experience as a criminal. As the New Republic was slowly growing, gathering and teaching Jedi Knights to protect the government, Tavion was also preparing for her attack. She corrupted Alora to the Dark Side, making the twi'lek her personal apprentice, and would steal a very old Sith Scepter from a collector on Commenor. Somehow, Tavion must have learned of Marka Ragnos and would become obsessed with this powerful Sith Lord. Using the scepter, she managed to store Force Energy into it and empowered other beings with the power of the Force, essentially adding Dark Jedi to her ranks. In essence, she created a Dark Side cult named 'The Disciples of Ragnos'.

With a new army of Dark Jedi and using her old ties with the Imperial Remnant, Tavion was ready for her conquest of the New Republic and the Jedi that had shamed her. The first notable appearance of the cult was on Yavin IV as she was stealing scraps of the Force near an old Jedi Temple. By shooting down a transport carrying new Jedi students(including Jaden Korr and Rosh Penin), she effectively created a diversion that would allow Alora to acquire a copy of Skywalker's records, containing information to various locations with a strong connection to the Force.

In the months(years? Perhaps each tier in the game is a year?) that followed, Tavion's cult would terrorise the galaxy, trying to create chaos throughout New Republic space, as well as stealing Force Energy from various locations. Near the start of Tavion's campaign, the Republic lost one student, namely Rosh Penin. Without too much trouble, Tavion managed to corrupt him to the Dark Side. There were a few more encounters with the cult in the next weeks, the Disciples of Ragnos would continue to steal more Force energy into the scepter. A notable incident was on, where Tavion revealed herself to Kyle Katarn and his apprentice, Jaden Korr. If it wasn't for Jaden's quick thinking, Katarn and Korr would've been killed there.

As they got closer to their goal, the Disciples of Ragnos became more bold in their attacks. After various skirmishes, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker finally managed to uncover their plans to resurrect Marka Ragnos on Korriban. Taking as many Jedi Knights and students as he could, Skywalker went to Korriban. Meanwhile, Kyle and Jaden(now a Jedi Knight) would head to Taspir III to rescue Rosh. Jaden nearly slipped to the Dark Side here, but Kyle managed to stop his apprentice from slipping. Jaden would join and fight alongside the other Jedi Knights on Korriban as they came closed to Ragnos' tomb. During the fighting, lots of Jedi, both Light and Dark, lost their lives in the ensuing fights. Finally, the tomb was found and Jaden entered the temple alone. Here, the young Jedi Knight encountered Tavion whom was already stealing Force Energy near Ragnos' tomb which would probably give her enough power to resurrect the Sith Lord. In the duel that followed, Jaden Korr managed to beat Tavion. However, remembering her encounter with Kyle on Cloud City, Tavion uttered that she would not cower as she did before Katarn and in a desperate action, she jumped on Ragnos' statue and plunged the scepter into it.

Marka Ragnos' spirit, whom had been resting there for centuries, was awakened. Using the powers at his command, he effectively took over Tavion's body. He summoned the scepter to him and pulled a Sith Sword from it, challenging Jaden Korr to a duel to the death. In essence, Marka Ragnos, a powerful Sith Lord from the past whom had nearly destroyed the Old Republic, was reborn.

A hectic duel followed, but Jaden Korr proved to be a more capable melee fighter than Ragnos and bested him in battle. As the scepter lay on the ground, Korr realised that Ragnos got most of his power from it. Before Marka Ragnos could get to the scepter, Korr destroyed the ancient Sith artifact. With a scream, Ragnos left Tavion's body and escaped back to his statue, presumably to rest until he will rise again. The toll on Tavion's body had been too much for her and she had finally been defeated.


Why did I give this detailed background/essay on her? To point out that Tavion's actions should not be underestimated. Her cult brought a grief throughout the galaxy, and we can assume that she caused a lot of death after Cloud City. She personally corrupted two potential Jedi(Alora and Rosh Penin) to the Dark Side and used a scepter to infuse more beings with the Dark Side of the Force. She is responsible for the death of a collector on Commenor. Various Jedi Knights/Students were killed on Korriban. Who knows what these Jedi might've meant in the Yuuzhan Vong war? And I think that we can presume that there were more off-screen casualties. Surely Luke, Jaden and Kyle were not the only ones whom encountered the Cult.

Suffice to say, while Tavion's campaign against the Republic was not as bad as the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, it still caused a lot of death and grief for many inhabitants of the GFFA.

Now we get back to my original question : Did Kyle make the right decision by sparing Tavion's life on Cloud City, even though that act caused more destruction? Or should he have dropped her right there, effectively stopping her attacks from ever happening?

My personal stance on this is that Kyle should not have killed her. However, by letting her escape, he made a terrible error. The problem is, I am not entirely sure what he could have done. He might've handed her over to Cloud City's security but she could have easily escaped from the prison. Had he waited until she was in a safer prison, then Kyle would've never infiltrated the Doomgiver, and could not have prevented the Doomgiver from launching more Reborn in the attack on Yavin IV which might've actually led to the Reborn destroying the Jedi Academy.

This is a question that I've been wondering about for awhile, and I'd like to see what other people's thoughts are on this matter.

Samuel Dravis
11-14-2003, 11:11 PM
Why are you back? Still 4 days left until KotOR PC. :D

But he did make a mistake. He should have been a sith since DF2.

Burrie
11-14-2003, 11:19 PM
Why are you back? Still 4 days left until KotOR PC.

Well, the swknights.com forums are still off-limits, but I suppose that I could still post at the jediknight.net forums ;)

But he did make a mistake. He should have been a sith since DF2.
What exactly do you mean? Should Kyle have joined the Dark Side during the Valley of the Jedi incident? :confused:

Sithrandir
11-14-2003, 11:22 PM
Let's see.

Kill Tavion: One person dies.
Do not kill Tavion: She kills a whole bunch of people before finally dying anyway in a few years OR easily escapes from prison and does the above OR completely delays Kyle's mission and allows Desann to take over the Jedi Academy.

oooo, that's a hard one.

Astrotoy7
11-14-2003, 11:22 PM
I dont think Kyle had a choice, Raven didnt want to trouble themselves hugely by having to invent entirely new villains for JA...especially conisdering you dont actually even fight the "main bad guy" in JA......

Plus Tavion is a babe, as computer game characters go...

MTFBWYA

Sam Fisher
11-14-2003, 11:35 PM
I think he didn't make the choice, but his training did. You know, the whole Light Jedi trip. :)


And it was a good one! If he killed her, no JA!
:p

StormHammer
11-14-2003, 11:54 PM
He made the right choice in letting her live, but not in letting her go. In order to understand his motives a little more, then you really need to go back to his fight with Maw, and the terrible self-conflict he faced. He struck Maw down in anger - and this (partly) led to his struggle against the Dark Side. If he had simply killed Tavion, then that too would have been another Dark act of murder. She was already defeated and unable to resist him further - so to take her life then would have been a murderous (criminal) act.

So he was right to let her live.

However, he should not simply have let her go. That was his mistake. He should have taken her to the Jedi Academy and handed her over to Luke.

Remember in the EU novels that it is possible for a powerful Jedi to sever another Jedi's connection to the Force (if you buy into that sort of thing). Tavion might very well have escaped an ordinary prison - but could she have escaped a prison where her guards are other Jedi? Or if you buy into the 'severance from the Force' idea in the EU, she could have effectively been 'neutered' and no longer posed a threat.

Kyle allowed his concern for Jan to cloud his emotions, and so he made the wrong decision in letting Tavion go. So in a way, he is still ruled by emotion - and this is one of his character flaws.

Neverhoodian
11-14-2003, 11:59 PM
I believe Kyle did the right thing letting Tavion go in JO. Compassion is a virtue of a true Jedi, after all.

Besides, if Kyle had killed Tavion, he probably would have fallen to the Dark side. He would have been obsessed with revenge to find Desann, Jan's other "killer" and would have become a Dark Jedi/Sith Lord. He might have done what Dark side Jaden does and may have fought a one-man-war against both the Remnant and the New Republic because Luke probably would have confronted him about his anger and rage. The last few missions Kyle would be battling both Jedi and Reborn in order to get to Desann. After defeating Desann, Kyle might have gone back to the Valley of the Jedi, taken its power as the Dark side Kyle does in JK, (he would be able to stand the strain due to his relearned power of the Force) and quite possibly could have become a new Emperor, casting the galaxy into darkness and despair.

If you ask me, a mistake Kyle makes is not being observant enough in JA. Rosh's feelings about being "held back" were probably strong enough for Kyle to feel. He should've discussed the issue with Rosh. Another thing is that both Luke and Kyle should've kept a closer eye on Jaden. If you select predominately Dark side powers, all you get is a "bad boy/girl, you really should stop" slap on the wrist from Luke or Kyle. If Kyle was a bit more observant, he might have prevented some of Jaden's inner turmoil and maybe even could've stopped Jaden from choosing the Dark side. (that is, if you decide to choose the Dark side.)

Samuel Dravis
11-14-2003, 11:59 PM
What exactly do you mean? Should Kyle have joined the Dark Side during the Valley of the Jedi incident?
Of course. Kyle was meant to be a dark jedi.

Remember in the EU novels that it is possible for a powerful Jedi to sever another Jedi's connection to the Force.
It is not really 'severed', it just makes the other jedi not able to sense the force.

operagh0st
11-15-2003, 01:04 AM
Outisde of the Jedi Outcast storyline it's difficult to draw clear conclusions about the actions of Kyle Katarn, Tavion, and Jaden since, as we know; the player is in command of which way the story goes in DF2:JK and JK:JA.

If we can, for the sake of argument, assume things went as they should have in both cases, then:

1) Kyle sustained the Valley of the Jedi incident without turning to the Dark Side.

and

2) Jaden did not turn when he/she found Rosh on Taspir-3.

With Kyle having abandoned and subsequently re-embraced his connection to the Force, he was walking a delicate tightrope between the Light and the Dark. This was escalated all the more by his motivation for returning to the Valley of the Jedi; i.e. revenge.

Now, when Kyle meets Tavion on Bespin, it's certainly the roughest test of his character as both a Jedi and as a human being. If he had killed her, unarmed and helpless, his path to the Dark Side would have been assured (remember what Emperor Palpatine said to Luke at the Battle of Endor).

Palpatine: Take your Jedi weapon, I am unarmed... strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey toward the Dark Side will be complete!

When faced with that defining moment, just as Jaden was on Taspir-3, Kyle was forced to make a 'conscience-check' and found that, at heart, he was not the cold-blooded killer he had meant to become.

Still, one cannot discount the effect that Tavion's revelation had on Kyle. If she had not squealed and confessed that Jan was still alive, there may have been no hope of drawing Kyle back from his 'downward spiral'.

Luke: Sometimes even a small hope is enough to defeat the Dark Side.

(Now we fast-forward a few years, and Kyle is an instructor at the Academy, and he takes Jaden and Rosh as students)

I'm sure that Kyle could see that Rosh was heading in a bad direction; his impatience and arrogance made him an easy mark for his seduction by Tavion and the Dark Side of the Force.

Like Jaden, I'm sure Rosh would've recieved some stiff warnings from both Kyle and Luke based on how he chose to develop his powers. But as Kyle himself said:

Remember, abilities are not inherently good or evil. It's how you use them. Every Jedi is naturally stronger in different areas of the Force, and it will be up to you to decide what to focus on.

More importantly, I believe Kyle (above all people), understood that no amount of warning, lecture, or rhetoric would be enough to bring Rosh back 'down to earth' (so to speak). After all, Kyle himself recieved more that his share of warnings from Luke and Morgan.

Lecture is not a defining experience. It is not, as Aristotle would call it "empirical data" (no pun intended). Regardless of which direction Rosh and Jaden were heading in, his counsel would be mostly ineffective. Ultimately they would have to choose for themselves.

And, of course, despite his little detour, Rosh did come back around in the end.

Tavion's fate following Jedi Outcast had been of great interest to me. I recall in one SP mod I saw, that the author established that Tavion had turned and joined the Academy. And I think that could've been a fitting end to her character's struggle.

... but, as we know, the team at Raven had different plans for her.

As far as Kyle's disposition of her following their duel on Bespin, I don't think he could have handled it differently. Primarily because he was still in pursuit of both Jan and Desann, and simply didn't have the time to see her arrested and detained.

Furthermore, the concept of someone (perhaps Luke) stripping Tavion of her connection to the Force is pretty much impossible if you apply George Lucas's definition of midichlorians and the hereditary/genetic nature of a Jedi's connection to the Force; which seems to suggest that a person does not choose to speak to the Force... the Force chooses that person.

I know where the idea came from, though: the Tales of the Jedi comics by Kevin J. Anderson. As far as lending any creedence to that, I do remember Lucas saying in an interview that he doesn't follow (or even acknowledge) the ideas and events presented in the Comic Books from the EU. Ergo, it's just not Canonical in the lexicon of Star Wars mythology.

In conclusion, Kyle most definitely did NOT make a mistake by letting Tavion go. He remained true to himself, and resisted the Dark Side; regardless of what tragedy it might have prevented if Tavion had not been allowed to escape.

I say "might have prevented" because, as I said before, if you apply Lucas's concept of the Force, then it is the Force that chooses it's champions, and even if Tavion had been killed, another would've risen to take her place... all in the name of balance.

(plotwise speaking, though, better it was Tavion than some nameless Reborn that rose up through the ranks)

I gotta say, this is an excellent thread, and I'm glad it was started. It really got me thinking about the characters and events from these games, and adds some deeper meaning to it all. Thanks to Burrie for starting it.

The Count
11-15-2003, 10:43 AM
Tavion was created by LucasArts not Raven; Raven make the game, LA come up with the story.

Neverhoodian
11-15-2003, 04:56 PM
Wow, well said operagh0st. That was definately an insightful post to read. I agree with pretty much everything you said. (in retrospect, Kyle probably couldn't have stopped Rosh from joining the Dark side. Still, I've wondered why Kyle never really warns Rosh the way he warns Jaden at times. Maybe he does warn Rosh, but it's not shown in the game)

Syzerian
11-16-2003, 02:42 AM
wow
i agree with most of u on this one
rosh couldnt have been stopped from turning to the darkside since he was afraid of dying so he turned and thats what brought him back when he was afraid of jaden killing him

btw what is that thing that jaden does on vjun after the fight with rosh when he throws his saber into the air and breaks the ceiling, but what was the point in that? if it was to crush tavion he would have been crushed himself.
and then when kyle is holding up the rocks jaden grabs kyles saber and jumps around then kyle throws the rocks away, what was the point in that if he could have just throwen them away in the first place?

someone please prove me wrong:p

DarkLord60
11-16-2003, 04:06 AM
Kyle should have killed her he needs to join the sith! Sith rule!

Taran'atar
11-16-2003, 04:21 AM
btw what is that thing that jaden does on vjun after the fight with rosh when he throws his saber into the air and breaks the ceiling, but what was the point in that? if it was to crush tavion he would have been crushed himself.
and then when kyle is holding up the rocks jaden grabs kyles saber and jumps around then kyle throws the rocks away, what was the point in that if he could have just throwen them away in the first place?

Jaden brought the ceiling down on her and Kyle with her lightsaber, hoping to escape from Tavion. Kyle kept the debris off of them with the force, while Jaden used Kyles saber to cut a hole in the floor through which they escaped. Kyle didn't throw the debris away, he just let it drop after he and Jaden escaped to the level below.

That cutscene was badly "filmed". It took a few repeat watchings to figure out what they were doing.

DarkLord60
11-16-2003, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Taran'atar
Jaden brought the ceiling down on her and Kyle with her lightsaber, hoping to escape from Tavion. Kyle kept the debris off of them with the force, while Jaden used Kyles saber to cut a hole in the floor through which they escaped. Kyle didn't throw the debris away, he just let it drop after he and Jaden escaped to the level below.

That cutscene was badly "filmed". It took a few repeat watchings to figure out what they were doing.

Wow thats not what I saw I guess I will have to see that again.

operagh0st
11-16-2003, 08:03 PM
I agree the animation went a little quick to catch exactly what was going on. I've played that level a zillion times 'cause I love the fight with Rosh, Tweedle-Dee & Tweedle-Dum.

It is Tavion who pulls the saber out of Jaden's hand and wrecks the cieling, obviously her intention was to crush them both;

Kyle: Ragnos? What can a dead Sith Lord give you?

Tavion: Everything I've ever wanted...not that you'll be around to see it!

The roof comes crashing down on Kyle and Jaden, but Kyle suspends the rocks with the Force, and Jaden takes Kyle's lightsaber and cuts a hole in the floor for them to escape.

Tinny
11-16-2003, 08:40 PM
i think if Kyle had killed Tavion he would have been drawn to the dark side and who knows how much more harm than Tavion he would have done. sorry if this has already been posted above :(

Astrotoy7
11-16-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Remember in the EU novels that it is possible for a powerful Jedi to sever another Jedi's connection to the Force (if you buy into that sort of thing

...Or if you buy into the 'severance from the Force' idea in the EU, she could have effectively been 'neutered' and no longer posed a threat.

ok Stormie, i have probably blocked this out(the NJO has been arduous!),are you referring to the JA trilogy ???


there's quite alot of exposition here about what a computer game character did...... I dont think Kyle Katarn was intended as a literary figure.... :p He does have a beard though, and is up for adventure; He could slot into a Verne, or even Hemingway piece nicely.......


MTFBWYA

Burrie
11-17-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
ok Stormie, i have probably blocked this out(the NJO has been arduous!),are you referring to the JA trilogy ???
This technique was first seen(I think) in the Tales of the Jedi series where Nomi Sunrider breaks Ulic Qel-Droma's link with the Force. This same technique was also used in 'Crystal Star'(No bashers, no bashers!) where Hethrir kind of blocked the Force for Jacen and Jaina although this was more of a temporary solution. A more recent example would be 'Traitor' where Jacen was stripped of the Force by Vergere. And there was recently also a most interesting use...

<HUGE NEW JEDI ORDER 'UNIFYING FORCE' SPOILER. IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK, DON'T READ THIS SPOILER, I MEAN IT>

(note that I personally haven't read the book yet, I have only heard this and can't confirm it yet)

Apparantly, the Yuuzhan Vong were also stripped off the Force by their gods. Please note that there is no real definition of whom or what these 'gods' could've possibly been.

I know that some people may not like this relevation, but I'd kindly request that any discussion about this is kept out of this thread. This thread focuses solely on Kyle Katarn and his decision with Tavion, NOT the New Jedi Order series.

From what I've seen, this ability to block other people's connection to the Force is rare, extremely rare. When Nomi Sunrider used it, it was more out of an act of anger and revenge(kinda like how Kyle is suddenly able to use Force Grip 3 on Tavion even though he only can really use it a few levels later :p) . She personally didn't know how she did it afterwards, nor how to undo it. Hethrir's use was extremely limited. The only one known to use it without too much apparant effort is Vergere.

Now if this power had been more widely known, then it would've been the perfect solution for Tavion's situation. But I doubt that even Luke Skywalker knows how to apply it, let alone Kyle Katarn.

there's quite alot of exposition here about what a computer game character did...... I dont think Kyle Katarn was intended as a literary figure.... He does have a beard though, and is up for adventure; He could slot into a Verne, or even Hemingway piece nicely.......
Actually, that is one thing that I've always liked about Kyle. He has slowly grown from being 'just another video game character' from Dark Forces to a more 'accepted EU character' like Mara Jade. Kyle's the only character who has gotten a lot of development for a SW video game character. He started out as a mercenary, and ended up being one of the first Jedi Trainers at Luke's academy. Who would've thought that back in Dark Forces? :)

Plus, with having his own three novels(Soldier of the Empire, Rebel Agent and Jedi Knight), a large entry in the New Essential Guide to Characters and even a cameo appearance in the Unifying Force(that's not too big a spoiler, is it?), I think that we can safely say that Kyle is more rooted in the EU than any other EU video game persona.

I must say that I like where this thread is going, and I'd like to respond to some of the earlier posts when I have more time.

Erzengel
11-17-2003, 06:53 AM
Someone in this thread said that LucasArts makes the stories for the games. If that's so, then there is a way to disable the force in people, for it has been in another game. The ysalamiri, the creatures on Mrykr who negate the force in MotS (originally in Timothy Zahn's books). Lace these creatures throughout a prison to store Sith and you have a very effective way of bringing them down to the level where you can have New Republic guards guarding the prison. Problem with this is you put alot of strong sith in one very juicy target for other Sith...

If Kyle Kartarn had dropped Tavian, then we would never have known how much suffering she would have caused, therefore we would have seen it as a dark act, even though if we were to look into the future we would see that it was indeed the better path. As such, from the information available at the time, it was not a mistake.