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raziel2003
11-16-2003, 02:00 AM
Hey all, i just thought i'd jot down a few things, and see what u guy's thought about what changes u'd like made in JA.

First, i think the Yellow DFA (Butterfly, Overhead Swipe) was made to be as it was in JK2, because lets face it, its damn near useless now.

And then, theres the Saberstaff and Dual sabers, they are totally n00b weapons. A person needs zero skill to use these! Single saber people have two options, A) Get better with the single saber, or B) Die trying.

The Roll. Again, now i know i may sound like im ranting about it, but the damn roll needs to be put back as it was, it sucks to be trying to roll and failing, its caused many a'deaths in countless duels.

The sabers power. Its too damned high (i know it can be changed and customized by server owners) but damn man, 2 hits with red style (on FULL health) can kill you easily, this i frikkin hate. I prefer longer, more tactical duels, not BOOM dead!

And last, (Flame me if you wish, but) I miss the kicks, side kicks, and forward kicks. You can kick with staff, so why not with the others?!

Anyway, just thought i'd post a few of my opinions on the JA fighting style, what did raven do? descide to make it a n00b friendly game and put us regulars/pro's on the shelf? come on man, give me a break. I really enjoyed JK2, i had to learn, train, and improove my skill before i could own people, now n00bs join and can kill the most seasoned of JK pro's. I think that sucks!

Raz

DarkLord_44
11-16-2003, 02:13 AM
I agree on the ydfa, the staff and double blades being too easy to kill with, and the rolls.

Pnut_Man
11-16-2003, 03:20 AM
I normally don't rant about saberstaff and dual sabers (even though they are cheap) because they can be beaten and sometimes are quite easy to dispose of with a single saber.

But speaking of the staff and dual being 'n00b friendly'...
I had two friends over the house on Friday and they decided to give JA a spin. I turned on ASE and joined some random FFA server for them to play on. It was full force FFA, with some 1st place guy named 'fifty' who would say: 'OWNED' whenever he got a kill.

Anyway, my friend Chris wanted to use the legendary lightstaff (and was doing horribly, i mean he couldn't pull off any combos, he was repeatidly hitting attack doing single strikes). Three guys with dual sabers charged at him and I watched in amusement and horror as Chris killed each and every one of them while laughing histerically as he ran around having no idea what he was doing. As the laughing subdued, the other friend, Chuck, said he'd try the Dual sabers. Chris and I watched as a similiar fate fell upon Chuck and I just stood there saying: 'n00b friendly......'

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 03:33 AM
I've found that single saber owns any other in the hands of a skilled player. Two sabers can take down a staff user easily, and staff is just a general weapon, not that great unless you know how to use it.

I personally think that complaining about the game being 'noob-friendly' is more than a little lame. If you don't like playing against 'noobs', then start your own server with saber damage toned down and play with some friends.

DarkLord60
11-16-2003, 05:19 AM
I think the double bladed one is just there for fun and eye candy. And I absolutley hat duel sabers cause theres no challenge in then its just click mouse button and hack ppl up. Which you can't even do that without turning on cheats.

Jawa8578
11-16-2003, 02:04 PM
So you all admit this game is noob friendly...finally.
Put a combo limit on staff and duel sabers to stop noob firendly button mash moves. Admittedly, it is easy to kill these button mashers, but when you're fighting and some guy (or two or three) runs behind you and starts mashing duel sabers and thinks he 'pwns' then I fail to see the point of the game.
But whatever I'm not bothered about them let the noobs keep them and think they own, raven should just fix the gameplay flaws that mean full force duelling is pointless (as anyone can drain back health far quicker than it can now be inflicted) aswell as an fc being unstoppable in ctf (as no kick = no way to stop someone).

shukrallah
11-16-2003, 02:31 PM
so, your saying the 2 handed saber is to strong? Think about it, who would you expect to win, a guy with 2 blades, or a guy with one?

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 03:11 PM
'Fix' the gameplay?

I'm sorry, but isn't that what they did in the patch? Obviously, Raven did not see fit to 'fix' it. Therefore they must have meant for it to be that way.
some guy (or two or three) runs behind you and starts mashing duel sabers and thinks he 'pwns' then I fail to see the point of the game. Then play on a duel server, and just pull a kata when the
'button-masher' gets close. The patch fixed the katas where they are actually useful now. Unless you hadn't noticed.
And let's not get into the JO kick thing.

Jawa8578
11-16-2003, 03:58 PM
As kurgan and others are keen to tell people, the patch made no gameplay changes. That doesn't mean raven wanted the game to be like this...JK2 had 3 patches.

And remeber this is a game, its not canon.

Who would you expect to win 2 sabers or 1

erm if your gonna be like that like 'teh movies' then sabers should all be one hit killers. This is a game, not the film so it should be balanced.

And as for the gameplay issues which make ff s/o duelling and ctf impossible to play, I doubt raven wanted that to happen.

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
I personally think that complaining about the game being 'noob-friendly' is more than a little lame. If you don't like playing against 'noobs', then start your own server with saber damage toned down and play with some friends.

First off, i play on my clans server most of the time. We kept (most of) the default settings because too many changes causes less people wanting to play. I only complain about the "n00b friendly"ness because it took me a long time to train with a single saber on jk2 to gain the skills i have now, without that training, on jk2, i would have been a sucky player, a n00b with no skill.

What i dont like, is people who come on the server, who have little more than a week's worth of playing, and owning my ass. That pisses me off because their attitude towards the game suddenly goes from "wow, im a n00b and need to train" to "wow, im a n00b and kicking ass, so all these guys must be n00bs also!"

To be perfectly honest with you, the community of jk2 was far better because u spent time with people more skilled than yourself, learning from them, getting tips from people better than yourself, on JA, this doesnt happen. The community is rampent with people who think they are better than you because they use the cheap way to win. All i ask for is the sabers to be more balenced, so that skill is needed to win with hard training as it was with jk2.

I just hope that the next patch sorts somthing out with this, because i find myself only duelling people with one saber because i dont like to fight people with no skill. A challenge is somthing a person with a single saber give you, if they are better than you. A pointless duel is some n00b with dual sabers/staff who thinks hes better than you. I enjoyed the equality with jk2, this game is biast towards n00bs, and thats all i have to say on that matter.

Raz

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 05:22 PM
This is a game, not the film so it should be balanced.
If anything, single is the most powerful.

And as for the gameplay issues which make ff s/o duelling and ctf impossible to play
Perhaps for the way of playing that you're used to. The objective is to get the other team's flag, not kill their flag carrier. Go back to JO if you can't handle change.

Tell me, are you just continuing complaining for fun, or do you actually believe this?

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 05:25 PM
Well, im complaining in the hopes that raven realises that most of us arnt enjoying our gaming experience on JA as much as JO.

If no one complains, then no changes are made.

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
If anything, single is the most powerful.

I bet your an avid FFA player who runs in and does a red overhead swing arnt you? Thats cheaper than the using the n00b sabers.

atx250
11-16-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
If anything, single is the most powerful.

I dunno about others, but i get instakilled much more against a double or staff user. Tho it could be i just suck against those sabers i dunno.


atx250

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 05:41 PM
Just wanna point out another thing, its not winning that bothers me, i dont care if i lose a dual. But i want to enjoy my duels. Being killed in three hits pisses me off, like i said before, i prefer longer, more tactical duels, with presision swings that require timing and accuracy, not just running in all guns blazing.

And to that note, i would like to add, not ALL staff players and dual saber users are n00bs, im just saying the majority use it because its easier to win with.

Coraith
11-16-2003, 05:45 PM
My pet hate is when the Saber goes right through someone without a scratch......I mean WTF???!!!....it's a LIGHT SABER, anyone touching a Light Saber would be burnt to some degree....I still can't believe this was overlooked by Raven, not only in the Original release but overlooked in the patch too.

Come on guys this is just not on, I can't be waisting my money on second rate games,

What I can't get my head around is that jk2 1.04 was almost perfect.........I would think JA would be at the very least the same if not an improvement......what have I paid for here??

I want my Saber to burn peps when it touches flesh, thats it!, not bothered about stuff we can fix when the code is out.......if ever

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 05:58 PM
I bet your an avid FFA player who runs in and does a red overhead swing arnt you? Thats cheaper than the using the n00b sabers. Actually, I use dual sabers. They look the coolest. And I don't play FFA much; Siege and Duel are my favorites. The tactic you mention is legal in FFAs, although I generally let my opponent see me before they die. :)
My pet hate is when the Saber goes right through someone without a scratch......I mean WTF???!!!....it's a LIGHT SABER, anyone touching a Light Saber would be burnt to some degree....I still can't believe this was overlooked by Raven, not only in the Original release but overlooked in the patch too.
I believe that's called lag.

Also Raziel, note that there is a Edit button at the bottom of your posts. Use it instead of multiple posts.

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
Actually, I use dual sabers. They look the coolest. And I don't play FFA much; Siege and Duel are my favorites. The tactic you mention is legal in FFAs, although I generally let my opponent see me before they die. :)

Well i just hope that you have skill with those sabers, like i said, the majority dont

I believe that's called lag.

Actually, this happens on a number of occasions on servers with very low pings, and it happens to almost everybody.


Also Raziel, note that there is a Edit button at the bottom of your posts. Use it instead of multiple posts.

I would prefer it that you do not patronise me. I may have a low postcount on here, but this does not mean that i know not how to use a forum.


Look, im not expecting everyone to agree with me, but i sure as hell know that a lot of people do agree with me on these issues. I hope raven see's this and makes the nessesscary changes to bring enjoyment back into Jedi Acedemy, as we all know, its what the game was released for isnt it? to be enjoyed by n00bs and skilled JK players?

Raz

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by raziel2003
Well i just hope that you have skill with those sabers, like i said, the majority don't.I like to think that I do. :D

Actually, this happens on a number of occasions on servers with very low pings, and it happens to almost everybody.This happens very infrequently on my LAN, which led me to post that.

I would prefer it that you do not patronise me. I may have a low postcount on here, but this does not mean that i know not how to use a forum. I didn't mean to sound patronizing; sorry.

To be enjoyed by n00bs and skilled JK players?Undoubtably.

Coraith
11-16-2003, 06:50 PM
Samuel, plz stop this nonsence,

Off course I know the difference between LAG and a BUG, it was fine in JK2......my con hasn't changed, the servers I play on are in the same area......its the game trust an old player of JK games.

I think it was you who said "Tell me, are you just continuing complaining for fun, or do you actually believe this?" Aimed at Raz here,

Well I have a question for you, do you really believe what you're saying or are you just arguing for arguements sake?, because these bugs are real, like it or not, and unless you work for Raven why would you champion their corner when these bugs are so obvious?,
I believe some of the Raven employees read these boards, can they or will they comment?

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 06:55 PM
Coraith, lets just hope they DO read and realise what changes need to be made.

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 07:09 PM
Off course I know the difference between LAG and a BUG, it was fine in JK2......my con hasn't changed, the servers I play on are in the same area......its the game trust an old player of JK games.I didn't say you didn't know the difference. I stated that I didn't experience the 'bug' as often on my LAN.
Well I have a question for you, do you really believe what you're saying or are you just arguing for arguements sake?If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't have posted it. I'm not 'championing' Raven's cause. It just seems to me that some of the 'bugs' you are talking about can be easily overcome or ignored. I'm not saying that some of these aren't bad ideas (better YDFA, tightening the net code), but they apparently aren't a priority with Raven.I believe some of the Raven employees read these boards, can they or will they comment? They are sometimes here. Not very often though, and I doubt you will see a response from them.

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 09:09 PM
lets just hope raven does to JA what they did with JO 1.04! Make it better. Well, we can only wait and hope.

Coraith
11-16-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by raziel2003
lets just hope raven does to JA what they did with JO 1.04! Make it better. Well, we can only wait and hope.

Agreed.

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 09:30 PM
Either that or Raven will be in some serious trouble. :D

Jawa8578
11-16-2003, 09:39 PM
Samuel Dravis: From your posts, you're obviously a ****. No disrespect, but you haven't a clue about this game, or its technicalities.

Perhaps for the way of playing that you're used to. The objective is to get the other team's flag, not kill their flag carrier. Go back to JO if you can't handle change.

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG. Dont even speak of a game mode you obviously stand clueless about. I really think you're quite stupid. You get the other teams flag...then what...you have to kill their carrier you oaf. There no longer ANY WAY to stop someone...watch ya gonna do OMG OMG OMG Fine I think some things arer worse, but I at least think every gamemode raven put in the game should at least be playable. As theres no way to stop an fc (thats flag carrier for you), theres no way to kill him, meaning no way to win. OMG OMG OMG get away from here until you have the tiniest clue about ctf.


I believe that's called lag.


OMG OMG OMG You've embarassed yourself enough. Its a universal, well known bug. Again, either you're bordering on moronic or you simply have no clue regarding the technicalities of the gameplay.

Actually, I use dual sabers. They look the coolest.

Uhm speaks for itself. Maybe we can team up an do teh kool movie stuff cuz we wud b 1337 wif kool doolin stuff.



Raziel: You're right. If I had the time and effort I would say exactly what you said. And fyi samuel dravis, several raven employees visit these boards infrequently...you think I like hanging around people like you? Go learn the game and then, maybe then, what you say may be influential.

cheeto101
11-16-2003, 09:41 PM
Once again, everyone is complainin about the staff and duals. Yeesh, i just came from 3 diff servers where in one there was no duals or staffs, because everyone was gettin owned by singles using them them. And the other two had single saber users at the top of both. Single isnt harder to get kills with, Assss loonnggg as your using heavy or the blue lunge. Yellow is pretty useless. Id like to see the yellow and blue stances get an overhaul so they can compete with the other stances and sabers.

FK | unnamed
11-16-2003, 09:42 PM
Look, the bottom line is Jedi Outcast was a damn difficult game to "master".

And when I say master, I really mean it.

To hang with the Crème de la crème in that game, you had to work your ass off and earn it.

There was also the lack of a "great equalizer" for newer/less skilled players in 1.04, which I admit caused a lot of problems.


In 1.02 you had the DFA, 1.03 the BS, but in 1.04 there was no move newer/less skilled players could rely on for instant gratification so in turn, it made the distance between the skilled and not skilled very, very obvious.

Go mash buttons in Jedi Outcast, you look like an imbecile and you accomplish nothing.


Now, go mash buttons in Jedi Academy.... you get instant gratification because it "looks cool" and you can actually score kills.


I'm not saying this is a bad thing, because I honestly do like the fact that "newbie’s" can score some kills now and not be totally shut out like they did in JK2.

That only led to frustration, which brought about all the "lamer/spammer/whore" nonsense.


But the problem a lot of these guys are having with this game is not due to the fact that newer players can now survive; it's the fact that those who do like to invest time "perfecting their game" are feeling short changed because there is no pay off.

Any gamer who has invested a serious amount of time in a game wants to see results from all of his dedication.

The problem we have with Academy, is there are simply too many random factors (hit detection involving Ghoul 2 being the most obvious) and not enough "meat on the bones".

What I meant by that last comment was, there is really nothing to "discover" or "develop" in Academy beyond the obvious.

In Outcast, combos were constantly being developed by good players because the game mechanics were for the most part, unrestricted.

But in Academy, you have so many nerfs and restrictions, not to mention the elimination of certain things that game play has been simplified to the point of "what you see is ALL that you get".

I mean really, what is there to master in Academy?

What difficult combos are there to practice?


Nadda.

Coraith
11-16-2003, 09:55 PM
OMG that post was so on the button, exellent Nadda. I couldn't agree more.

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by cheeto101
Yellow is pretty useless.

As with JO, this IS and will probably always be, my main stance. Its not useless, i find that (to me) its more useful than any of the blue swings (apart from blue lunge) and more gratifying to win with than usign red stance.

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 10:25 PM
Jawa, you obviously want to flame. The other people on this thread were at least being reasonable with their arguments.

BTW, you can kill the flag carrier. It's just harder than you're apparently used to.

KaiaSowapit
11-16-2003, 11:02 PM
Skilled single saber users on my server win matches consistently - at least one person I know in particular often wins by a ratio of two to one. On the rare occasion a talented single saber user doesn't win a match, it's usually because the server is filled with many inexperienced players who keep carelessly running into each other's saber "barrier" katas. Raven can't code out user stupidity.

No disrespect intended, but I'd suggest if you're constantly losing to staff and dual saber players, you simply aren't quite as skilled as you believe (or they're more talented than you're giving them credit for). For better or worse, Academy is a new game; you'll have to adapt some new techniques to succeed.
Originally posted by Jawa8578
Samuel Dravis: From your posts, you're obviously a ****.

...I really think you're quite stupid.

Again, either you're bordering on moronic or you simply have no clue regarding the technicalities of the gameplay.
Previously posted by Jawa8578 in another thread
...if you can't win an arguement, you evidentally resort to flaming.
Aren't we the diplomat? Jawa8578, just how many times must you be banned from these forums before you learn to conduct yourself in a relatively civil manner (or simply not return)?

Since you're such an authority, technical expert, and claim this "bug" was present in JK2 as well, why don't you point out a few specific problem lines from the Outcast code? Impress us with your infinite knowledge. Do something constructive instead of childish "OMG" rants or implying anyone who disagrees with you is a moron. Perhaps a generous modder will fix it for you once the SDK is released.

Samuel Dravis
11-16-2003, 11:21 PM
Thanks for putting it so well, Kaia. I actually know one guy (Sam Fisher aka Rahl)that routinely has a score of 10 wins to 0 losses, and he uses single saber, red stance. I don't do too well against him. :)

FYI, the Open Jedi Project is going to make the sabers have better collisions etc. Go to our forum (link in sig) for more info.

raziel2003
11-16-2003, 11:35 PM
as i said before winning isnt what bothers me. I either win, or i lose. But it is the enjoymeny of the duel itself that i want. Having somone use red swings constantly, such as the extremly overpowered overhead swing (not the dfa) makes a duel boring, and tedious. I prefer longer duels, with more skill involved and less button bashing or use of the same swing over..and over.. and over.. and over..

KaiaSowapit
11-17-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by raziel2003
...it is the enjoymeny of the duel itself that i want. Having somone use red swings constantly, such as the extremly overpowered overhead swing (not the dfa) makes a duel boring, and tedious. I prefer longer duels, with more skill involved and less button bashing or use of the same swing over..and over.. and over.. and over..
As posted on many other threads, the cvar g_saberDamageScale can be evoked to alter the amount of damage sabers inflict. Though personally I find prolonged duels with glorified whiffle bats excruciatingly boring, you could talk to the administrator of your favorite server and ask him/her to lower the current setting.

As for the skill and tendency of human opponents to use the same technique repeatedly, that my friend is the very nature of multiplayer gaming. It is what it is - to the best of my knowledge, there's nothing Raven can do about that.

CapNColostomy
11-17-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
so, your saying the 2 handed saber is to strong? Think about it, who would you expect to win, a guy with 2 blades, or a guy with one?

Dooku handed Anakin his ass. And I think single saber is stouter than staff or dual. Not too stout, mind you. Just stouter. Just my two cents.

Imperial_thug
11-17-2003, 03:15 AM
I totally agree with every single thing raziel2003 has said. The sad part is that I doubt Raven will ever make those changes to the game, the best we can hope for is that they'll release the SDK/source code so it can be modded that way. We could call it "the return of fun" mod. lol

JediLiberator
11-17-2003, 04:39 AM
As with JO, JA is going to have to undergo a little evolution(through its patches) before things settle down. The one sad truth everybodies gonna have to face is you will NEVER find a game that realistically simulates lighsaber duels, or even sword fights. At least not while we're still using mouse and keyboard. As for the recent increase in amatuers who actually get some kills I say good for them. I bet after the 1.04 patch was out and everyone got good at JO starting out in the game and trying to get kills in multiplayer must have been incredibly hard. Even bot practice can only go so far to prepare you to face veteran opponents who've mastered all three stances. Now at least the new players won't be insanely frustrated and stop playing.

JediLiberator
11-17-2003, 04:39 AM
As with JO, JA is going to have to undergo a little evolution(through its patches) before things settle down. The one sad truth everybodies gonna have to face is you will NEVER find a game that realistically simulates lighsaber duels, or even sword fights. At least not while we're still using mouse and keyboard. As for the recent increase in amatuers who actually get some kills I say good for them. I bet after the 1.04 patch was out and everyone got good at JO starting out in the game and trying to get kills in multiplayer must have been incredibly hard. Even bot practice can only go so far to prepare you to face veteran opponents who've mastered all three stances. Now at least the new players won't be insanely frustrated and stop playing.

shukrallah
11-18-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Dooku handed Anakin his ass. And I think single saber is stouter than staff or dual. Not too stout, mind you. Just stouter. Just my two cents.

yeah, he also took out obi, and stood his ground against yoda... dooku was a master, anakin was a padawan.