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Khier
11-23-2003, 08:14 AM
Oh...my...****ing...god. Wow, I just got this game yesterday, and I've been called lamer about 234 times, ok that's a slight exaggeration. But still, I was just on this duel server, and I didn't bow to any of my opponents, I never do anymore, but at least I wait and let them do their thing. So then I've done a couple duels and this one guy starts telling me to bow. Just like that he said, "bow". Of course I'm thinking what the ****? So I ask him why I have to do. He starts going on about the same honor **** that people have been fighting since JK2 and I tried reasoning with him. Then everyone else in the server caught attention of "teh eeevil no-b0wing j00 havez noe honourzzz dickhead" (me :rolleyes: ) and thus began the relentless jeering and utterly pissy behaviour. I told them it's just a game, I spent my money on it too, and who cares about 3 dimensional digital star wars characters bowing in a computer game anyways. I tried everything but nothing fricking worked, there is absolutely no getting through to these fricking people. It was gratifying to wipe the floor with that guy's ass after his spiel of name-calling, and the next 3 three guys' asses before leaving out of frustration. They're all a bunch of freaking nazis! Honour nazis! GAAH!! Goddamn I need to take a visit to the Chop Shop or something...

Sorry but I just totally needed to rave and rant, it pissed me off that I can't step into a server without having to be so damned cautious of everything I do in order not to be banned/kicked. Do what you want with this thread because I'm done now.

Lucasforums needs a rant forum methinks.

Kurgan
11-23-2003, 08:24 AM
See, the thing is, most of those "h0n0rz d00dZ" don't even realize you really CAN bow in JA (ie: the "Bow" taunt in Duel). Most of them are still rapidly tapping the "crouch" key like monkeys before a fight.


And the ones that really get me are still the guys who stand around with their sabers off waiting in line to fight one on one in a FFA.

Somebody once pointed out how great it is this way because a ton of people can all duel at once in the time it takes for 2 people to duel in "Duel" mode (ie: because you have to wait in line).

Of course the trouble is there's no "mod" to allow more than one saber challenge to occur at a time in JA yet. Duel just gives the server a lot more control over the "honor" aspect of dueling, yet some people still don't use it for some reason.

I guess they consider a laggier version (since you have to load all those player models and the glowy auras around the combatants) of Duel that requires both players to gather health/armor first to be "more honorable." And its not like you can't limit force in Duel, you can to a far greater degree than in a saber challenge (which is still just limiting you to jump and saber throw... of course both allow saber specials/katas and acrobatics).


My advice: Find another server. There are more and more "non honor" (Ie: ASC, Anti-Saberist Code, anything goes, no rules, etc) type of servers.

Join my server or Chop Shop or a dozen others. We aren't big on "honor" or "anti-laming."

I assume you're using the patch, if so you can see hundreds of servers in the in-game browser to choose from.

Join a Siege or CTF server and you won't have as many problems either (since "honor" in those gametypes makes no sense and is nearly impossible to enforce).

Duel is the gametype I've played the least in JA, simply because I prefer not to wait in line or deal with the "honor" BS. Plus if the server is laggy, duels are just not much fun (as Stormhammer pointed out).


My conviction is that "voting enabled," "admin mods" and the "honor code" (or whatever they call it), are the three biggest problems with the JK2 community, and this is also true of the JA community.

However, since the SDK isn't out yet, the problems associated with admin mods haven't surfaced yet (as Amidala is sure to point out, yes, there are benefits to admin mods... I'm simply speaking of their widespread abuse in JK2), and many people, having been fed up with the crap in JK2 are making sure they don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

Good luck....

TK-8252
11-23-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
"admin mods" ... biggest problems ... the problems associated with admin mods haven't surfaced yet I have actually read that the author of Jedi Academy mod is taking out almost all of the admin powers, so hopefully there won't be much, if any admin abuse. All he's leaving are the core powers: /amsleep, /amkick, /amkickban, /amsilence, /amrename. Now the abusive admins cant use /ampunish, /amslap, /ambunny, /amempower to humiliate players. :)

Kurgan
11-23-2003, 08:52 AM
Well, that's good news, although "sleep" is just as bad as the others as far as potential for abuse to humiliate. : (


My further advice to the author?

DON'T RELEASE YOUR SOURCE CODE!


You'll just end up with a slew of copy-cat programs that have the abusive commands added (which will then be abused and overused, causing people to hate the game).

Sure, smart coders will figure out how to do the stuff on their own, but there's no reason to make it easy for the "I just want to be a jerk admin" folks to get their power-trip fix.

TK-8252
11-23-2003, 08:57 AM
Most abusive admins didn't use /amsleep, because /amsleep is just not quite as abusive as other ones. Unlike /ampunish, you can still chat. In JKII, the admins at JK3Files were NOT ALLOWED to use /ampunish, /ambunny, or /amempower! And other players were not allowed to interfere or chat with sleepers.

But /amsleep is a neccesary power for admins on saber down= peace servers. Right now it is impossible to get a lamer's attention with rcon. :mad:

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-23-2003, 08:58 AM
One of the automated messages on my servers:

Remember when Qui-gon, Obi-wan, and Maul all bowed to each other before before fighting? Or Obi-wan and Vader? Or Luke and Vader? Hmmmm, neither do I.

The closest thing to "bowing" in the canon is Dooku doing that kind of "en garde" saber-salute to Yoda, his former master, but he didn't bow, and neither did Yoda. Same thing with Dooku vs. Ob-wan and Anakin. Real Jedi and Sith don't bow, because as another one of my automated messages reminds:

"You are unwise to lower your defenses". Hmmmm, where have I heard that before?

Bowing is yet another made-up silly ritual by the honor weenies, or as yet another one of my automated messages asks:

Who made up all these "honor" rules anyway, George Lucas, or a bunch of whiny teenage boys?

TK-8252
11-23-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
One of the automated messages on my servers:

Remember when Qui-gon, Obi-wan, and Maul all bowed to each other before before fighting? Or Obi-wan and Vader? Or Luke and Vader? Hmmmm, neither do I.

The closest thing to "bowing" in the canon is Dooku doing that kind of "en garde" saber-salute to Yoda, his former master, but he didn't bow, and neither did Yoda. Same thing with Dooku vs. Ob-wan and Anakin. Real Jedi don't bow, because as another one of my automated messages reminds:

"You are unwise to lower your defenses". Hmmmm, where have I heard that before?

Bowing is yet another made-up silly ritual by the honor weenies, or as yet another one of my automated messages asks:

Who made up all these "honor" rules anyway, George Lucas, or a bunch of whiny teenage boys? The way I see it, the "honor" codes were created for people to show respect. You only see honor codes in saber only servers, because weapon servers just get far to intense for people to bow, etc. Although I don't need someone to bow to me, because if they respect or disrespect me, I don't care.

But... Most people when they duel are not trying to role-play Star Wars. If they WERE role-playing, they would do what they did in the movies, which is just attack. If everyone role-played the whole time, there would be no saber down= peace rules, I mean, Darth Vader isn't going to wait for Luke to finish his comlink message with Han Solo in their duel on the Death Star.

Khier
11-23-2003, 09:08 AM
Ok I just added the two chop shop servers, Kurgan's server, and Kaiasawopit's server. I'm sure there is more that would be of interest to me, like some of the competitive clan servers.

This is off topic but I saw a thread somewhere with a bunch of demos of competitive guys beating up honour guys. I didn't have JA at the time so I couldn't view them......

TK-8252
11-23-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Khier Serakk
a bunch of demos of competitive guys beating up honour guys. Why is there so much hatred between the honor folks and the competitive players? Just because they prefer different styles of playing I guess... That's a pretty immature thing to fight about. Let people play how they want on their own servers.

Rad Blackrose
11-23-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Why is there so much hatred between the honor folks and the competitive players? Just because they prefer different styles of playing I guess... That's a pretty immature thing to fight about. Let people play how they want on their own servers.

In the competitive scene, it's anarchy: no rules, just fun (copyright Outback, yadda yadda). If we sat around the blue flag with one guy holding the gi-tar and the rest holding hands while singing coumbyah, what would that accomplish for us in CTF, besides the fact that it looks like one disoriented circle-jerk.

Think about it for a second, what game modes are attracting the competitive scene? FFA? There's a Team FFA, but not as many TFFA servers as FFA servers. Plus, there's the occasion where one wants to rise as an individual, or plays by himself because random teammates don't understand high end strategy.

Duel? Play against top FF/SO duelers. While you're staring at the ground and holding whatever you bound +movedown to, he will probably have PTed you a few times, if not something worse (I don't know, just the thought of the lack of kicking is enough to make me steer clear of JA's FF/SO due to drain game, flame away with your utter lack of knowledge on kicking and FF/SO if it stirs you).

CTF? Yes, the honor fanbois even took the staple of the competitive community and threw their honor codes and admin mods in there. FFS, the objective is to capture the flag, not sit there while I throw a few det packs under you, do a quick indian dance around you, detonate, watch you fly, and do another dance around your corpse.

What happens when they cross the boundaries and start whining on OUR servers? We get pissed. It's what happened in JO, that's why we crossed and started slaying. It is what led to the Code Wars, it's what led to the post-competitive fanboi bashfest, and I will goddamn guarantee it will happen in JA if they keep it up.

idontlikegeorge
11-23-2003, 09:43 AM
The problem is, most honor players, think honor rules apply on ALL SERVERS - which is why you always hear "lamer" "omg j00 l4/\/\3r!!!!1111"

Incidentally, I hate "leet speek" more than I hate airbags, hippies, vegans, and alot of other ****.

Then, you'll have the competitive player who thinks he's the **** 'cause he can cause trouble with the hapless morons on the "honor" servers, and that gets their panties in a knot (no offense to any lady players - I'd bet any girl playing this plays to play, not to go around in tutus and bow and frolic like... something) ...

Anyway...

"The way I see it, the "honor" codes were created for people to show respect. You only see honor codes in saber only servers, because weapon servers just get far to intense for people to bow, etc."

For one, doing a stupid ritual bow, and using a keybind that says "GGNF!!!!1" isn't honor. Silence (ala not running off with unintelligible insults), with an occasion compliment for constant showing of superior skill. Not after every god damn duel.

When there actually was a good duel, I feel it's cheapened when the duellers do some keybind script saying "GGNF" after EVERY duel - good or blantantly not.

It feels like fake respect to eachother. And I'd prefer honest disrespect to false respect. :p

Astrotoy7
11-23-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Khier Serakk
Oh...my...****ing...god. Wow, I just got this game yesterday...

Played SP yet Khier ? You wont have these problems then, I assure you !

nonetheless, hope you feel better after the rant. I have played MP online a scant few times, so cannot share your pain... :violin:

MTFBWYA

ManaMana
11-23-2003, 10:09 AM
Kupo, Astrotoy... How fun is it to play SP?

I mean, there are no spamming, no whiners, no honours... Boring...

PLAY SP!!!

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-23-2003, 10:17 AM
Something for everyone:

First, Vanor gives some an interesting historical perspective on the origins of "saber down = peace" here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1337070#post1337070

Khier Serakk, the demos you want are here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115588

And TK, to understand the animosity, search the forums for "honor", "laming", "saberist code", or just start here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114280&perpage=40&highlight=define%20laming&pagenumber=1

I don't want to speak for others but the problem is the "honor" crowd has this opinion:
Personally I think that killing someone who is unarmed is unfair, all games have rules, all sports, why? so that everyone has a fair shot at winning.He is right, games and sports have rules. These are made by governing bodies, published in a rule book, and universally recognized as official. But players are not allowed to make-up additional silly rules and try to pretend as if they are real. Can you imagine someone on a football field saying "you didn't bow before tackling me, f**king noob!"? The point "honor" players fail to realize is their sacred "Saber Code of Conduct" is totally made-up, unofficial, and not universally recognized yet people who have been brainwashed, intimidated, or misled into following it go to other servers and whine whine whine when someone "kills" them in a way not to their liking.

I have my official Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy(tm) game manual in my hands, and it says nothing about "saber off = peace", don't attack players who are chatting, bow before duels, etc. On the contrary, here is what it says about "Free For All"
Best summed up as every person for him or herself, players score points by eliminating other players, and no one can be considered an ally. Weapons and equipment are acquired in the field, unless otherwise otherwise specified on the server. Some options include whether to allow Force powers or not and the maximum Force level available.Period.

Don't "chatkill" or you're an honorless noob? Again, what does my official Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy(tm) manual say about chatting?Clicking chat will allows (sic) contestants to customize the in-game chat commands. Generally, players won't have time to sit back and type out conversations to each other in a fast-paced multiplayer game. However, there are times when it's necessary to talk to some or all of the players on the server. The default keys are as follows: (etc.)Period.

If server operators want to make up silly rules that are not in the official manual, not consistent with the "Jedi" ethics they think they emulating as documented in the Star Wars canon, and are totally alien to every other First Person Shooter game all the way back to DOOM, that is their business, but they should realize and admit that their sacred "Code" is as arbitrary and non-universal as making everyone use yellow lightsabers, or having to twirl like a ballerina three times in a clockwise direction before capturing the flag. And please spare us the smug condescension about how "honorable" and "fair" and "skillful" "honor" players are, while the rest of us are a bunch of clueless "lamers".

PG|Prometheus
11-23-2003, 11:11 AM
Actually, this competetive players vs Honour guys is rubbish. I've specced loads of matches between competetive guys and on the whole, they both bow (out of respect, not because theres some 12 year old admin with his finger on /amkick).
If they want to bow, fine. I think its cool that the JK series is one of the few games ever that respects the other player. Then again, I don't really care whether people do or not, but you're argueing over a one second crouch at the begginning of a match...

Raven just made bowing 'official' in the honour guys eyes by adding the animations, so thats probably why things are more pronounced now. I never use the animation, it leaves you open if the guy decideds to attack, but if he bows, i'll crouch bow.

At the end of the day, who cares. Sure they might shout abuse at you, but who cares. Beat the guy and shut them up, because at the end of the day, the winner wins.

Coraith
11-23-2003, 12:14 PM
It has already been said but just to back up the argument, "Bowing" is a sign of respect for the REAL Player behind the controls, not to the model or the 3d representation of a SW character.

I have respect for all people, no matter what, so I give them a chance to be ready before I attack. The best way to show this is to Bow, weather that be using the Bow emote on Duels servers or crouching and learning the mouse forward on FFA servers (you can't use the bow emote on FFA).

That’s all it is, respect for YOU the person. If I am dueling someone who doesn’t Bow, then I don't get pissy about it I just get on with the game. But I do expect players to wait while I Bow, this in itself shows respect for me as an individual and that’s enough for me.

What is wrong with players wanting to make a gesture of respect for their opponent? this isn't a MMORG, I am not "playing a character", I am in game as myself playing a FPS for kicks. If it was on a LAN setup I would wish everyone Good Luck and I would shake hands with my opponents at the end and the beginning. Why because I believe in showing respect for other people.

In RL sport you will hear a buzzer or a gun shot or some other type of sound that will signal everyone is ready and a fair contest can get underway. I see Bowing in much the same way.

I like to conduct myself with so called "honor", this is a personal choice on my part and I don't expect anyone else to behave in the same way and I wouldn't call anyone "Lame" or "Noob" because they don't Bow.

On the other hand if I was "Bowing" and someone took advantage of that and attacked me I wouldn't Duel that person again. I am showing them respect I would expect them not to take advantage of my good nature.

After the last few days of reading and posting here I have made a point of not calling anyone "Lame" or "Noob" as I hadn't realized how many people hate it. But I still believe in respect for your opponent (the real player behind the computer) so I avoid players who have none.

My two cents,

Kurgan
11-23-2003, 12:22 PM
Ah, the truth finally comes out.... admin mods are needed to enforce honor codes!

Now I've heard everything. ; )

Why is there so much hatred between the honor folks and the competitive players? Just because they prefer different styles of playing I guess... That's a pretty immature thing to fight about. Let people play how they want on their own servers.

The reason why there is so much hatred towards "honor folks" is because there is an apparently pervasive movement among them on public servers that harass "non honor" players.

Example:

Group of people join public server.

Somebody gets killed while typing or with their saber down, and they yell "LAMER!" "No Honor!" "Saber Off = PEACE" etc.

Group of people gang up on the "offender" and/or vote-kick them from the server, while heaping on verbal abuse.

Player(s) who were kicked for "not being honorable" (enough) get angry.

Often the cries of "Lamer!" etc aren't even logical, but put out as excuses for poor gaming skills or because they're being stupid (ie: typing in the middle of a battle, or walking around with their saber down looking for a duel and not paying attention to what's going on around them).


So, in short, it's because "honor" people try to enforce their belief system on those who are unwilling in public servers. They use "mob rule" to shove their playing style down other people's throats.


--------------------------------

Why do "honor people" hate competative players? Because competative players refuse to obey the made up honor codes of the honor people. And they get a kick out of making fun of the honor people for their (real or imagined) silly behavior.


Not all "honor folks" consider themselves "Role Players" but many do. Some people actually walk around and "talk" as if they are playing a LARP or pencil and paper RPG while they play on a JA/JK2 server. They are on one extreme end of the spectrum.

On the other are the people who simply believe that "saber off = peace" and "no laming" are good rules to live by and hope other people follow them as well.
==========================


Another problem with the whole "honor" thing is that many admins (who believe in the honor codes) EXPECT people to know them, without making it clear what these codes are.

How is somebody who just got the game or who hasn't played online much supposed to know what these made up codes are and how they work?

So they join a server and kill somebody, then all of a sudden they find themselves AMSleeped or kick or cussed at because they were "laming."

LAMING? What's that? They say as they are cussed at and kicked....

It's enough to make somebody not want to play the game. Or else they give in to mob rule and become another "honor n00b" and abuse others based on this perceived "code."




The "honor code" probably started out innocently enough (maybe somebody at one time did have more fun playing this way), but it's grown into a monster and people take it far too seriously (not to mention abuse it to cover their lack of skills or to "punish" players who are too good for them), that's why I am so against it. It ruins the fun of many many players. The honor folks want everyone to follow their code. The competative players just want to be able to play competatively (ie: the way the game was designed, not how some random players decided it SHOULD be played).

Believe in your honor code if you want, but don't try to enforce it on anybody, UNLESS you're the admin! And "honor" admins have the responsibility to inform every player that joins their server what the rules are, not just lash out at them because they're not psychic (like a real Jedi).
===================


My thoughts are that I'd rather "have fun" playing the game playing the game without having to stop using weapons and powers that are allowed on the server just because somebody else doesn't like them or constantly start and stop and wonder "is that person really ready to fight or are they about to start chatting or turn off their saber in which case I have to drop everything and wait for them to be ready...??"


Honor folk need to turn their world view around.

Instead of assuming that everyone needs to follow their "honor code," they need to assume that the world at large is going to play the game without rules, and thus they can't (and shouldn't try to) force people to abide by their rules, period, unless they're the admin.

And IF they're the admins, they need to let people known (perferably not in an ***hole fashion) what those rules and expectations are.

SlapNut
11-23-2003, 12:32 PM
Khier Serakk: Good on ya mate!
;) lol

Kurgan
11-23-2003, 12:48 PM
As for showing respect... let's face it, it's OPTIONAL.


Saying "good game" is just as meaningful as "bowing" before a duel.

But requiring people to "show respect" is silly. What if you genuinely have no respect for your opponent?

What if you're just playing to have fun and honestly don't care what the other person says?


Some folks will retort with an "F U" if you tell them good game or something. It makes them mad.

Also, we all know that chatting does (at least in a small way) lag the server, so perhaps the less we do of it, the better for all....


I always thought that "respect is earned." After all, it's not like these are your parents you're playing against. They're not your priest or your rabbi. They're not your "elders" (how would you even know?). So what gives them the right to expect or demand "respect" from you? Nothing!

If you beat me in a close match or something or did something incredible I might give you a compliment. But you shouldn't demand one, when you haven't done anything to cause me to respect you. Why do you suddenly assume I owe you something?

In sports you don't see the players constantly complimenting the other team before and after every single point (sure you have some things like bowing before a match in Karate or Kendo or the salute before a fencing match, but that's actually a RULE and part of the sport, most sports don't have such rules). You might see the two teams (or two coaches) shaking hands after the game or right before, but that's different. This gaming "Sport" has no rule that you have to show respect before each match.

The manual suggests that players refrain from "excessive profanity" in playing, but that's it!

If you wish to show me respect for no reason, that's fine and your perrogative, but don't bash me because I don't choose to do the same.

It's just a "tradition" but it's not a tradition shared by all.

For example, many Jews keep "Kosher" (avoiding eating certain foods and only eating foods prepared according to dietary rituals and regulations). To them, this is a deeply meaningful and healthful practice, part of their religion.

But does this mean they should expect the majority of other people (who are not Jewish) to obey Kosher rules?

No.

Rather, they should be allowed to keep Kosher if they wish, since it has meaning for them.

In the same way, if the "honor folks" wish to practice honor, among like minded individuals, fine. But they also have to respect (no pun intended) the right of those who don't believe in it, to practice their "non honor" gameplay style.


To make another religious analogy (since the honor code seems to have near "religious" significance to some of the honor folk), it would be like if a group of Christians went around to neighborhoods on Sunday and took all the people who were not in Church and threw them in prison, because they were not following the same "code." Would that be fair?

(And another thing, if they were doing this, wouldn't that imply that the Christians were breaking their own rule by not being in Church on Sunday? Likewise I think some of the honor folk disrespecting the "non honor folks" are acting quite WITHOUT HONOR by persecuting their fellow player...).

Just some illustrations that I hope make the point clearer...

Coraith
11-23-2003, 12:59 PM
I expected more from you Kurgan you're obviously intelligent, I quite clearly stated I do NOT expect players to show me respect, I just ask that if I show them respect they don't take advantage of it and attack me while Bowing, I never mentioned GF after a duel.

Showing respect comes in all walks of life. If I don't show the appropriate respect in life I will never get what I want. If I walked into a shop and said "give me what I want now" I would get nothing, on the other hand if I asked "can I have this" I will get what I want. This is a form of respect for someone I don't know.

The world is built on it and if we all showed distain for people instead of respect then it would be a very different world.
Are you saying that because it’s a game and because I will never meet these players in RL that I should change me life style and show distain for said players?

I choose to show respect, I do not ask that anyone else should do the same.

Online gaming is sadly lacking in the simple respect we all show each other every day in RL. Why would this be a bad thing for the game?

CapNColostomy
11-23-2003, 01:14 PM
You know, I read alot of replies here where somebody says something like "way to go Kurgan!" or something along those lines. And I always think to myself, "gee, that guy really likes kissing moderator ass." Well...how should I put this next part? Get your ass off my mouth? No, that would never do. Maybe something more along the lines of WAY TO GO KURGAN! Between yours and Amidala's remarks on the whole homo-eroticism of the honor code horse poo thing, I had a very nice read. DOWN WITH FACIST HONOR QUIM!

Originally posted by Coraith


Online gaming is sadly lacking in the simple respect we all show each other every day in RL. Why would this be a bad thing for the game?

Dear sir. I am in no way am saying you're a quim. But the above statement caught my attention just after my hitting reply, so I thought I'd fire up a quick edit. I show people respect in real life almost constantly in "RL" on a daily basis, if your idea of showing respect is not throwing thermal detonators at them whilst they sit down for a chat with me. Other means of my showing respect based on your ideas include, but are not limited to: I do not impale anyone with a laser sword if they don't have one handy in "RL". It's always been a fantasy of mine though, so I do it in a video game. But I have to draw the line at bowing. I do not bow, and have never bowed to anyone "everyday in RL." And I'm gonna go the extra mile and say I never will. No offense man, it's just not relevant at all to mention how you treat people in "RL" when discussing a game. Just my humble opinion.

SlapNut
11-23-2003, 01:42 PM
who cares, if you think that chat killing is bad, then dont get all angry and swear at them and make them feel bad, because it doesnt do anything to you, it just gives them an extra kill, if they beat u becaus of it, ignor it and think in your head "I win this round, he cheated" and its all good, its better to have 2 happy people than 2 angry people. Do whgat ever you can to have fun, and getting angry at people itsnt what i call fun, if it is for you, then your just as bad a lamer as the chat killer who is making some people angry too. Have fun, i hope all SlapNuts fans will have fun in the future.

(does anyone know the cheat for changing the camera angle?)

griff38
11-23-2003, 01:59 PM
You know funny thing about honor and respect is, you get neither if you DEMAND it.

They have to be earned.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-23-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Coraith
It has already been said but just to back up the argument, "Bowing" is a sign of respect for the REAL Player behind the controls, not to the model or the 3d representation of a SW character.

I have respect for all people, ...Do you respect those who don't believe in or follow your "Saberist Code of Conduct"? Your past posts ("I expected more from you Kurgan you're obviously intelligent...") suggest otherwise.

...no matter what, so I give them a chance to be ready before I attack. The best way to show this is to Bow,...
That's your opinion, and the opinion of others who think as you do. But that's all it is, opinion. Can you possibly allow that others think it is a useless waste of time? Their opinion is just as valid as yours.

weather that be using the Bow emote on Duels servers or crouching and learning the mouse forward on FFA servers (you can't use the bow emote on FFA).

That’s all it is, respect for YOU the person. If I am dueling someone who doesn’t Bow, then I don't get pissy about it I just get on with the game.Good for you! But as Khier Serakk described in his post, your approach is rare. 13-year-old "Jedi" get very abusive and profane when they aren't shown the proper "respect".

But I do expect players to wait while I Bow, this in itself shows respect for me as an individual and that’s enough for me.Fair enough.

What is wrong with players wanting to make a gesture of respect for their opponent? this isn't a MMORG, I am not "playing a character", I am in game as myself playing a FPS for kicks. If it was on a LAN setup I would wish everyone Good Luck and I would shake hands with my opponents at the end and the beginning. Why because I believe in showing respect for other people.There is nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't become an expectation and demand. But that's exactly what it has become on those oppressive "honor" servers. If someone doesn't follow that queer little ritual (and I chose that word carefully for it's "dual" meaning [and I was tempted to use a homonym as a pun just then, not bad for an unwashed, unfair, unskilled, dishonorable lamer]) the whining, profanity, and abuse soon follow from those oh-so-honorable "Jedi".

In RL sport you will hear a buzzer or a gun shot or some other type of sound that will signal everyone is ready and a fair contest can get underway.Again, those are official parts of that sport, probably with official specifications as to the type of gun or buzzer. I see Bowing in much the same way.Again, just your opinion and that of others who believe as you do. It has no official weight. Please do not become abusive if we don't agree (not you personally, I'm speaking to your cohorts).

I like to conduct myself with so called "honor", this is a personal choice on my part and I don't expect anyone else to behave in the same way and I wouldn't call anyone "Lame" or "Noob" because they don't Bow.Or at least you've stopped calling people lame and noob, as you yourself describe below. Thank you.

On the other hand if I was "Bowing" and someone took advantage of that and attacked me I wouldn't Duel that person again. I am showing them respect I would expect them not to take advantage of my good nature.Or perhaps just drop the friggin' bowing and get on with the fight!

After the last few days of reading and posting here I have made a point of not calling anyone "Lame" or "Noob" as I hadn't realized how many people hate it.Again, thank you for stopping that obnoxious, dishonorable, and disrespectful behavior. But don't you see how doing that in the past was incongruous with your earlier statement? (quoted below)"I have respect for all people, no matter what"Can you understand why many of us consider so-called "honor" players (and I'm not necessarily referring to you specifically) to be silly, pompous, pretentious, abuse-prone, hypocritical twits?

But I still believe in respect for your opponent (the real player behind the computer) so I avoid players who have none.

My two cents, Perhaps then you'll be avoiding most "honor" players in the future.

PG|Prometheus
11-23-2003, 05:16 PM
hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

Master William
11-23-2003, 05:27 PM
My friend got the game 2-3 days ago. As soon as he played, some 45-year old guy started calling my friend a lamer.

My friend was 'lamed' by the the guy who was calling him lamer before he 'lamed' him, still the guy started whining.

Great way to welcome players, my friend prefers playing SP now. This is already worse than the goddamn Counter-Strike game. JA/JK2 receive the awards for containing the worst idiots ever.

Counter-Strike, eat your heart out.

Imperial_thug
11-23-2003, 05:30 PM
Most ppl will see the problem with this "saber down = peace" garbage when they are dueling some jackoff and he suddenly drops his saber because he is low on health. I've seen this happen many times, so what do you do in that situation? I know I would just finish him, duels are to the death. So you kill him, it's inevitable that "omg you lamed me" will follow, and if that person happens to be an admin prepare to be put to sleep.

CapNColostomy
11-23-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

Pffft! That's the whole problem, slick! You can't simply not play with the "honour guys". They're worse than the clap. And I'm not entirely convinced they're "guys" either. They're every freakin' where. And they assume that everyone takes it from behind, just because they like to. No matter what the server rules say, facist honor quim are gonna be there telling you how they think it oughta be, and slinging their "lamer" arrows.

Much to my ammusement, new threads completly trashing them, crop up here on a daily basis. If they had any concept of the meaning of the word "honor", they'd know griping, pissing, moaning, bitching, etc, about someone not playing "I'll bend over if you do" is not honorable. Given the anonimity of the internet, one might even conclude that it's cowardly.

Pedro The Hutt
11-23-2003, 05:58 PM
That's why I stick to just a few select servers where I know that most of the people are nice XD

But I don't see a point in turning off your saber when you're near death o.o sure you might not get struck IF your opponent keeps to the rules, but what would help, let alone bring you closer to victory in the end? >.> Mah well.

SpaceButler13
11-23-2003, 06:48 PM
Yes, I bow, and yes, I use crouch, actually because I don't really care for bowing and it's quicker, but I'd really rather not kill someone who's possibly just had a cat step on his keyboard or something. It's just not fun. I also say gf as sort of a "no, I'm not going to call you a lamer" or whatever. The nusto honor kids really irk me, esp. on ffa servers and I've posted before about obnoxious things they've done, but bowing and whatnot doesn't make you one of them, at least not in the duel game-type. The opposite sort of people who butterfly into someone trying to bow then with "hahahahahah!111111 j00 m0r0n!!!111" is pretty damned obnoxious too, often because the other person just wants to have a fun duel with someone not afk.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-23-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

I'm not uptight about it, my post was long because most of it was quotes. And if the "honor" players did as you suggest, stayed on their own servers and did their own thing, I couldn't care less.

But for the hundreth time *sigh*, I'll repeat it again: the problem is they don't stay on their own Bizarro servers, bowing, chatting, apologizing for the wrong type of kill ("Sorry, I didn't see your chat bubble"), and anxiously looking over their shoulders for some power-crazed 13-year-old admin who might "punish" them. They invade other servers (like mine) and wrongly assume their "honor code" is universal and an official part of the game. They whine, curse, and try to browbeat and intimidate others to their misguided way of thinking.

My servers have a clean, pure, simple "all kills are legal, don't whine when you die" policy, clearly stated in the MOTDs (different for each map) and automated server messages. Despite that, these "honor" players descend like locusts and try to impose their made-up "rules" and "Codes" on my server. Here is a small sample of actual transcipts of the nonsense I have to deal with:saber down = no attack!!!
ffs if your sword is down donyt attack!!!
saber down is peace u muppet
sabre down=peace
do ANY of you idiots understand that you are NOT supposed to attack people that are typeing or have no gun or saber armed
saberdown you dickhead
how about this... WHEN F***ING SABRE IS DOWN DON'T F***ING ATTACK THEM
is that going through you f***ing brains (wow, such language from a "man of honor")
noone in this game seems to have the intelligence to grasp that very simple concept :\
*sighs* this game is full of the lamest honorless f***s ive ever had the missfortune to play with
sabre down or guns down= peace
anyone who killes me when i have my sabre down or guns down or chat ill kick them (Interesting, this "honor" player is a liar since he doesn't have the power to kick anyone)
this is your server sniper dude?
yes (another lie from the "honor" player)
do i have to remind everyone... NO LAMING OR ELSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (more empty threats)
my saber is down f***ing moron
what's with jerkoff a**hole f***sticks killing people when they're obviously a talking caption over their head?
Darth_Revan: DUstin, laming is not cool, it's for noob bitches that didle childeren, so stop
any rules or is sab down killing OK?
no saber down killing or chat killing (another "honor" player imposing HIS rules on MY server)
fatpants we all agreed on no saber off kills or chat kills (no, no one agreed, you just tried to make up some rules and make others follow them)

That is why this is a problem. If they just stayed on their purely "honor" code servers and stopped trying to spread their "religion" to other servers, we could just avoid those "honor" servers and everyone would be happy. But they won't.

FK | unnamed
11-23-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

You’re missing the point man.

I'm all for personal choice as well.

If a guy wants to run around and pretend he's darth Spock, hey more power to him.

But that goes both ways.
If I want to connect to a server and start slashing and shooting things, should I not have that option as well?

Where the frustration lies is those people who plopped down 49.99 for a game and just want to actually "play" it are finding it that task becoming increasingly more difficult.

Jedi Outcast became so absurdly infested with this "honor" bull**** that it got to the point in the latter 6 months of the games life, where finding ANY server that let you just connect and play without going through some ridiculous role playing rituals, or that did not "admin punish" you for violating some asinine "codes of honor" became impossible.

And the argument "find another server" is not a valid argument either, here is why:

If this was restricted to specific servers yes, "find another place to play" would be a valid point, but the fact is these 'honor" people infest and enforce this crap on PUBLIC servers with no established rules.

I don't know how many times I've seen a pack of these tools gang up and vote people off public servers just because those said players were... playing... on a public server no less.

Hell, I ran 3 separate servers in Outcast and on the few occasions where I screwed up and left voting on, these retards would try and vote us off our own server for "laming", even after they had been warned to stfu about the honor bull**** and just play.

The sad fact is, if you go to a server and encounter a pack of these idiots, simply "leaving and finding another server to play on" will bring you into a server with even more of them.


/edit

she beat me to it, but same thing she said ^

TK-8252
11-23-2003, 07:15 PM
I agree with what you are all saying. MOST honor players are really not very honorable when it comes with dealing with the non-honorable players. I feel that these players have ruined the way people look at honor players. I just hope you guys know that not ALL honor players are ass****s. There are SOME good ones. Take the JK3Files server (oh I just love advertising it)...

-It does have the saber down= peace rule.
-It does have the no chat killing rule.
-THESE RULES DO NOT APPLY IN DUELS.
-Bowing is not required.
-If you are in the way of the FFA with your saber down or chatting, and you are killed, it's YOUR fault, not the killer's fault.
-Offensive, abusive, profane, vulgar, etc. language is not allowed.
-There is no voting.
-Admins must have visual evidence of rule breaking before even warning someone. In Jedi Outcast, that meant /amsleep.
-In Jedi Outcast, admins were not allowed to use /ampunish.
-If someone was put to sleep, other players were not allowed to chat or interfere with their conversation with the admin. So a group of players couldn't stand over a player and yell OMG J00 MOTHER****ING N00B!!1! BAN THE ASS****!!!!!!!11
-If someone continually falsely accuses someone of laming, the whiner would be kicked.

As you can see, a lamer would not be abused under these rules.

PG|Prometheus
11-23-2003, 07:21 PM
What I mean is, theres nothing that can be done. You make it sound like these people are a majority. I know they're not, but don't make it sound like it is, because as many people pointed out in competetive vs casual arguements, the minority loses.

Raven added animations for these honour guys, yet another pointer defining which players the game is aimed at.
I don't play ffa, but I don't see the point in chatkilling a guy...I play to kill people that fight and to spend a few seconds slashing into a guy stood still doesnt attract me. Then again, in ctf, or if someone backs out of a duel when they lose, many a time I've chatkilled them or 'got them with their saber down' (omg blasphomous).

At the end of the day, if these guys are a majority, then theres not much you can do. If they're a minority, find another server. And if they invade your server, use their em powers back at them and kickban them.

FK | unnamed
11-23-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
I agree with what you are all saying. MOST honor players are really not very honorable when it comes with dealing with the non-honorable players. I feel that these players have ruined the way people look at honor players. I just hope you guys know that not ALL honor players are ass****s. There are SOME good ones. Take the JK3Files server (oh I just love advertising it)...

-It does have the saber down= peace rule.
-It does have the no chat killing rule.
-THESE RULES DO NOT APPLY IN DUELS.
-Bowing is not required.
-If you are in the way of the FFA with your saber down or chatting, and you are killed, it's YOUR fault, not the killer's fault.
-Offensive, abusive, profane, vulgar, etc. language is not allowed.
-There is no voting.
-Admins must have visual evidence of rule breaking before even warning someone. In Jedi Outcast, that meant /amsleep.
-In Jedi Outcast, admins were not allowed to use /ampunish.
-If someone was put to sleep, other players were not allowed to chat or interfere with their conversation with the admin. So a group of players couldn't stand over a player and yell OMG J00 MOTHER****ING N00B!!1! BAN THE ASS****!!!!!!!11
-If someone continually falsely accuses someone of laming, the whiner would be kicked.

As you can see, a lamer would not be abused under these rules.

jk2files.com was the biggest whiny ass, no talent noob infested server in the history of that game.

I will say a couple of the guys who had rcon there were decent people (Atlas and Shroom Duck come to mind) but the rest were just crappy players and nerds on a mission of holy galactic geek vengeance.

I've been to the jk3files.com server a few times and I admit it's not as bad as before, but one thing is missing that could (and chances are will) change that:

An admin mod

The used to give admin to anyone of the regular newbie’s who played there (scratch "play", I meant to say stood around there) and groveled, sucked up and stroked their nerd egos.

If that has changed, great, but I really doubt it.

FK | unnamed
11-23-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
What I mean is, theres nothing that can be done. You make it sound like these people are a majority. I know they're not, but don't make it sound like it is, because as many people pointed out in competetive vs casual arguements, the minority loses.


At the end of the day, if these guys are a majority, then theres not much you can do. If they're a minority, find another server. And if they invade your server, use their em powers back at them and kickban them.

They are the majority, without a doubt.

In Outcast, the number of servers I was banned from, from my first ban, to may last, was close to one thousand.

No joke, no exaggeration.

Granted a lot of those were multiple bans on the same servers, but still, being banned from over 500 separate individual servers in less than a year is just insane for any online game.

I mean Jesus man, people who try to wall hack and aimbot on punkbuster servers in other games like RTCW or Quake 3, don't even get ban figures that high.

And the sad thing is, off all those bans, I would say maybe 3 tops did not revolve around the honor/lamer crap.

And almost every single one of those bans involved an admin mod.

Admin mods were no different than client side hacks; they gave newbie’s the means to survive in a game they sucked at.

Can't kill that player who owns you?

/empower

Still can't kill him?

/amsleep


He keeps /reconnecting and killing you before you can put him back to sleep?

/kickban

I would say about 60% of this community has this "whaaa mommy" mentality for some damn reason, and mark my word, when and if these admin mods ever do surface, the all mighty noob avenger command of /kickban is going to make "fun and frantic paced game play” for the casual gamer tougher to find than Dinosaurs in South Central Los Angles.

PG|Prometheus
11-23-2003, 07:50 PM
Come on man, I join servers and after 5 minutes press /disco bind before they can scream "S4B3r D0Wn = P34c3?!!?". If they do the honour stuff, or have the admin that enforces it, I just don't play there.
I found a few ffa servers in JK2 where you do what you want. And duel, well it wasn't really a problem to find a server, but if there wasn't many on, I'd just put up with crouching before I killed them (or them me :P). But theres quite a few good competetive players who do bow...obviously don't cry about you not returning it, but not everyone fits under the same umberella :P

eniaC
11-23-2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Khier Serakk
This is off topic but I saw a thread somewhere with a bunch of demos of competitive guys beating up honour guys. I didn't have JA at the time so I couldn't view them......


http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=115588

Coraith
11-23-2003, 08:11 PM
My last post here so I am going to spell it out for the people who have me mixed up with someone else,

I believe in showing respect for my opponent, that’s all there is to it.

I DO NOT think everyone else should do this,

I DO NOT think that someone who doesn't show respect should be called lame or noob,

I DO NOT expect other players to behave like me,

I DO NOT want or have any wish to try and "convert" players to my way of thinking,

I DO NOT think I am right and you are all wrong,

Now for the DO's,

I DO think this is a personal opinion of mine,

I DO think that if someone shows you respect you should at least have the stones to wait till they are finished bowing and not attack them; if you’re good you need no advantage,

I DO think this "ideal" is more then evident in RL,
For example,
I went Kickboxing this afternoon, after a bit of a warm up me and a local lad who I don't know personally decided to have a spar, before we started trying to knock each other out we "touched gloves", why?, because neither of us wanted an "unfair" advantage over the other.
During the match I clocked the poor lad in the nadds by mistake, now after an apology we again "touched gloves" and continued.

I use this example to show that I have respect for an opponent, regardless of the fact that it has been "earned" or not.

I DO think this is a good thing for the game, any game, and the servers I play on it works fine and everyone comes away feeling like they have had a fair round of duels with like minded players.

I DO think that the most skilled players I have ever had the joy to duel have come from the same type of servers I play on, and all the best players I have fought have never needed an advantage of any kind to beat me including hitting me while I bow or any other type of advantage.

Now that is how I feel, this is my opinion, I couldn't give two flying F**Ks about weather or not anyone here thinks the same, I respect your right to play as you wish, I ask that you respect mine.

/END

Dracofyre
11-23-2003, 08:39 PM
Ahh yes, those honor loving smacktards of the JK MP universe. It is because of these guys, who love to bunch into groups and apparantly just talk to each other, that I am CONVICED that is why the saberstaff has a 360 degree hitting kata.

It is because of these "honor" freaks that JKO MP collapsed and the forum community died. It is also because of these guys that I still proudly bear my ASC tag, and will do all I can to make these honor morons cry and whine. If I get banned from the server, so much the better.

The minute you join the server you are a combatant. Saber off does NOT equal peace. Saber off DOES equal, you are a moron, here's a saber through your head. Same thing for in game chatting.

If you bow to me, I will DFA you. No questions asked. I see you lower your saber and do that crap and you will get a saber through your head.

When I join a server, I come to kill, and if you're within saber reach, then you are a target.

Coraith
11-23-2003, 08:50 PM
I know I said I wasn't going to post on this again but I have to say this.

To all the normal, intelligent people here, look at the above post by Dracofyre, would any sane, fun loving person prefer to compete against someone like me who will respect you as a person or with him/her who will show you no respect as a person unless you think as he/she does?

I must leave here, I find no like minded people, this may well show that I and my kind are in fact a dieing bred in RL, I hope this isn't the case or we have a hard road in front of us as a species.
Good bye all and happy gaming,

Peace Out!

Master William
11-23-2003, 09:08 PM
STOP THIS! A new thread everyday about this rises! And everyone gets upset, flame eachother, saying ''cry more'', etc.

You make long posts, and it's the same thing every time. We understand.

Kurgan, I beg you to lock threads like this INSTANTLY, as they are just repetitive and full of flames.

There is nothing you can do about the honor thing, end of story.

Try to survive.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-23-2003, 09:32 PM
For the record, I think it is just as bad for someone to go a server with clearly stated "honor" rules (saber down = peace, no chatkilling, etc.) and deliberately disobey those rules as it is for an "honor" player to try an impose his "code" on a server where those "rules" don't apply.

AxVegetA
11-23-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Khier Serakk
They're all a bunch of freaking nazis! Honour nazis! GAAH!!

WTF? what is the connection bettween nazis and honor noobs?
:snear:

Coraith
11-23-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
For the record, I think it is just as bad for someone to go a server with clearly stated "honor" rules (saber down = peace, no chatkilling, etc.) and deliberately disobey those rules as it is for an "honor" player to try an impose his "code" on a server where those "rules" don't apply.

<------Man this dude just won't leave :D

For the record I agree with that statment completely, and I already knew that of you Amidala, that why I like ya ;)

I don't want to leave these boards but I don't want to be lumped in with the "Honor Noobs", I just think the Honor Code is a good idea that has obviously been exploted.

TK-8252
11-23-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
jk2files.com was the biggest whiny ass, no talent noob infested server in the history of that game.

I will say a couple of the guys who had rcon there were decent people (Atlas and Shroom Duck come to mind) but the rest were just crappy players and nerds on a mission of holy galactic geek vengeance.

I've been to the jk3files.com server a few times and I admit it's not as bad as before, but one thing is missing that could (and chances are will) change that:

An admin mod

The used to give admin to anyone of the regular newbie’s who played there (scratch "play", I meant to say stood around there) and groveled, sucked up and stroked their nerd egos.

If that has changed, great, but I really doubt it. Yes, but those days have pasted. A lot of people there have grown up, and HolyWarrior was removed from power! Yay! Atlas has been brought back as an admin, that's good. I've been told by many regulars that I'm their favorite admin there. But... An admin with questionable techniques was hired, which could contribute to the nonsense. :(

But for those competitive players, like you unnamed, it's just not your place.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-23-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Coraith
<------Man this dude just won't leave :D

For the record I agree with that statment completely, and I already knew that of you Amidala, that why I like ya ;)

I don't want to leave these boards but I don't want to be lumped in with the "Honor Noobs", I just think the Honor Code is a good idea that has obviously been exploted.

The feeling is mutual:amidala:

I hope you didn't take anything I said personally, and if you did I apologize.

You just very clearly articulated "the other side", and therefore were a perfect foil for my counterarguments.

Please don't feel you have to leave the forum, the "honor" debate is just one small part of what goes on here (just check out the goofy stuff in Yoda's Swamp). I don't think anyone here thinks you are the type of player who goes to a public server, "honor" code-following or not, and screams profanities at people for so-called "laming". No one has a problem with you playing on or running a server that has "honor" rules. Hopefully, if "newbies" come to your server, someone will explain to them that while those rules are followed there, they are not universal and it is always best to find out the rules of any new server they join without making assumptions.

I think this debate is healthier than people invading each other's servers and causing grief, no matter who is doing it or how.

Prisoner 655321
11-24-2003, 12:02 AM
I see a few solutions to this animosity between the "honor people" and everyone else.

-Play single player

-Play solo against bots

-LAN parties with people of similar interests (to bow or not to bow)

-Private/password servers

-or, do what I do:
Get really sh*thoused with my wife and a couple friends, LAN up and make a server, and beat the living crap out of each other.

We started doing this when UT came out, and it's always fun. Sometimes people from outside find our games, and we let them play how they want if they aren't being *$$holes. If they are, we all get sniper rifles (in most games) or lightsabers and commence target practice. In these games, I have never called anyone a "lamer" or a "noob." I didn't even know these terms until I looked at this forum. If I called my wife a "noob," she would laugh and ask what it was. The only equivalent of "chat killing" is killing someone while they went to the kitchen for another drink. Hell, instead of some "saber down=peace" crap, we just announce our hidey-hole, and ask that we aren't targeted for decapitation.

Sorry if this got long, but it just seems like everyone is way too angry over a game.

Coraith
11-24-2003, 12:09 AM
Well I guess we agree to disagree, I will take this opportunity to thank Amidala for making me feel more welcome.....that’s right.......I’m gonna stay :p
All I can say is let’s bring on the fun weather that be Honor Code or not.

BTW, no need for apologies, your arguments have made me think about my stance on this, that in itself is a feat with me :p

Coraith
11-24-2003, 12:19 AM
oh and to Master William, this is nothing to worry about, it's (for the most part) a sensible discussion between intelligent people about "honor", no need to lock it we are(for the most part) not flaming or trying to start a flame war so chill dude :cool:

Chuahtemoc
11-24-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan

And the ones that really get me are still the guys who stand around with their sabers off waiting in line to fight one on one in a FFA.

oh man i have so much fun going into those servers and just massively thermal detonating crowds of these retards. what bloody fun! and then i get screamed at and called "Stup!d @nti-hon0rz n00bie! what t3h fuk is yu0r pr0bl3m???" that stuff is hilarious :D

FK | unnamed
11-24-2003, 01:49 AM
There is nothing wrong with showing people respect and common courtesy, but people take it too far.


I'm not going to go into some server and start making racial slurs at players because that's not something I would do to people IRL.

But getting mad at the people who do not bow/lame is kind of silly, I mean it really has nothing at all to do with the way two human beings would show each other respect and common courtesy.

It's just a silly little role playing ritual some people do in a video game.

Rad Blackrose
11-24-2003, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Master William
STOP THIS! A new thread everyday about this rises! And everyone gets upset, flame eachother, saying ''cry more'', etc.

You make long posts, and it's the same thing every time. We understand.

Kurgan, I beg you to lock threads like this INSTANTLY, as they are just repetitive and full of flames.

There is nothing you can do about the honor thing, end of story.

Try to survive.

I have driven William insane!

*throws on Mr. Burns voice* Excellent...

Coraith
11-24-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
There is nothing wrong with showing people respect and common courtesy, but people take it too far.


I'm not going to go into some server and start making racial slurs at players because that's not something I would do to people IRL.

But getting mad at the people who do not bow/lame is kind of silly, I mean it really has nothing at all to do with the way two human beings would show each other respect and common courtesy.

It's just a silly little role playing ritual some people do in a video game.

*Refrains from repeating himself*

MMP
11-24-2003, 02:49 AM
I play mostly Siege, and it is refreshingly free of most whining, except on Korriban (I'm guilty here as well, those detpacks can be SO frustrating; I suck at that map :p ).

Butt_Whisper
11-24-2003, 03:40 AM
Kurgan and Amidala, those are the best posts I have read on this subject. I still do not understand why people have "duel" servers listed as FFA; i mean I have been in servers where their rules were exactly like a true duel server. Everyone had to wait, and it was 1 v.s.1: you violated this rule, you were kicked immediately. Consequently, I killed 3 peeps standing around and left. I still hold to idea that FFA means Free For All, if you play FFA, you are there to fight and die; honor does not apply.

TK-8252
11-24-2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Butt_Whisper
if you play FFA, you are there to fight and die; honor does not apply. Just because it's an FFA doesn't mean that a server can't customize the way their game is played. If they want to stand around waiting for a chance to duel in an FFA, fine! It's what they like to do, it's what the server encourages. There is no gamemode for "honorable FFA" or "peaceful FFA" so FFA is all there is that allows players to be free in the map.

CapNColostomy
11-24-2003, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Just because it's an FFA doesn't mean that a server can't customize the way their game is played. If they want to stand around waiting for a chance to duel in an FFA, fine! It's what they like to do, it's what the server encourages. There is no gamemode for "honorable FFA" or "peaceful FFA" so FFA is all there is that allows players to be free in the map.

Far be it for me to tell someone what to do with their server, bandwidth, game style of choice, etc...But I know if I went to an orgy where sex was prohibited, I'd be mad as hell. What's the use of playing a FREE FOR ALL, if it isn't indeed FREE FOR ALL?!?!

TK-8252
11-24-2003, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Far be it for me to tell someone what to do with their server, bandwidth, game style of choice, etc...But I know if I went to an orgy where sex was prohibited, I'd be mad as hell. What's the use of playing a FREE FOR ALL, if it isn't indeed FREE FOR ALL?!?! Err... Well, if you don't like how that orgy operated, go to a different one.

The server host can set whatever rule(s) they want. They pay for or host the server so that they can play how they want. Just like with your... example.

eniaC
11-24-2003, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by Coraith
All I can say is let’s bring on the fun weather that be Honor Code or not.
yeah...that sounds nice...



Some of us were either made to feel real to stupid by the "elite/competitive" players because we liked to play with a regular group of people like they do, but we all didn't do it on ladders because we don't have the "skillz" or wtf'ever.

Most of these thick headed neanderthals can't appreciate the fact that some of us like to duel in ffa w/ out distractions,
those who have actually tried it know what I mean.

...and yet I go to servers with no rules posted and "lame", and get called cheater/lamer/newbie, I was even accused of using an aimbot, do they even have one for JA.

I've even played on servers were it clearly stated no rules and got the same d*** bull s***.

Yeah, that "honors" stuff is f***** stupid. I know, I suppose I'm hypocrate, oh well.

To any of you who ask for examples of these things happening to me, f*** you, do your own research.


Coraith,
Your not completely alone in this argument, but I am actually more of an "anti-honor" person now. Although I went on the <|Fear|> server a while back and enjoyed a ffa duel(yeah, just one, don't like lines) and a few true ffa's, they do both there.
I've also said that I wouldn't post anymore on this forum due to the over all hatred I recieved for mho's, so your not the only Hypocrate here, cheers mate.

Master William,
Don't mean to be a d***, but maybe if you didn't post stupid crap like that, some of these threads wouldn't get closed due to flames/spam wtf'ever (present party included ofcourse) and some people might actually get to post a reply in there own thread without it being closed because some arrogant a**holes come in and say the same s*** every time getting the thread closed once again.


end rant ::throws computer out front window into the street::
*bas____s*

Rad Blackrose
11-24-2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by Coraith
*Refrains from repeating himself*

*refrains from commencing in the det pack ritual*

Chuahtemoc
11-24-2003, 08:08 PM
she means she's a girl lol

Shakey Mac
11-24-2003, 08:24 PM
UNLESS you're the admin! And "honor" admins have the responsibility to inform every player that joins their server what the rules are, not just lash out at them because they're not psychic (like a real Jedi).



kurgan said it best right there.

plus i believe that, when in rome, you do as the romans do.

so if i go to kaias server, i just kill. saber on, saber off, dont matter to me (actually, because of a neat little trick kaia has, im more apt to kill saber offs before saber ons).

im more likely to adhere to "honor" on a dedicated duel server, but thats only if someone acts that way to me first. should they bow, ill bow back. if they dont....eh, no big. its just a game after all. and thats something i think too many people forget....its just a freaking game.

Master William
11-24-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
I have driven William insane!

*throws on Mr. Burns voice* Excellent...

*turns on Homer Simpson voice* WAAAH!

*runs away*

Khier
11-24-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by AxVegetA

WTF? what is the connection bettween nazis and honor noobs?
:snear:

It's an analogy.

Butt_Whisper
11-25-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Just because it's an FFA doesn't mean that a server can't customize the way their game is played. If they want to stand around waiting for a chance to duel in an FFA, fine! It's what they like to do, it's what the server encourages.

You have to wait in a duel server too. So why not host a "duel server"? In the end, the people who pay for the server make the rules, I agree: at least some servers are now listing the "code" as a rule to follow before entering the game. The servers I was referencing, were public servers, and the other players were trying to make everyone else conform to the "code" and attempting to turn the FFA servers into duel servers, which they did not own

TK-8252
11-25-2003, 02:48 AM
Those who try to push honor codes on others in REAL, TRUE FFA servers have some strange thought in their mind that their honor code is universal of something. *shrugs*

Anyway, just ignore the honor preaching weenies. Oh, and kill them a lot while they're whining.

But if a server DOES have an honor code, I feel that players should respect that. I think that most servers dont host a duel server because they want other people to be able to move around freely while waiting, instead of being in spectator.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-25-2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
They are the majority, without a doubt.

I think I know how they became the majority.

(the following is fiction, although some real player and server names were used)

This is the story of a kid we'll call Anakin, after his favorite Star Wars movie character. Anakin got a Star Wars Jedi Knight game for his 13th birthday. It was the first action first-person-shooter game he had ever owned. Kewl, Force powers, guns and lightsaber! Anakin played Single-player and got to be a Jedi, just like the movies! Kewl! He had great fun defeating Stormtroopers, Cultists, and other bad guys. Sometimes the bad guys were standing around chatting, sometimes they were looking the other way, that was great! Just made them easier to kill! He loved firing a salvo of rockets into them or Mind Tricking them and slashing them with his mighty lightsaber. They went down with a death cry, but other than getting killed from time to time, nothing unpleasant happened to young Anakin. Certainly he never got punished, or called a noob or lamer, or got kicked out of his own game. He learned to fight aggressively and well, taking advantage of opportunities those foolish bad guys gave him.

After playing through the Single-player game 10 times at Jedi Master difficulty, Anakin saw the Multiplayer button and checked it out. At first he used Create Server or Solo Game and played against bots. Awesome! He had great battles against bots, and learned the joy of Free for All battle, the chaos, the mayhem, the kill or be killed excitement. He tried the Duel and even Power Duel mode against Jedi Master skill bots. He used his downloaded Darth Maul skin and saber staff, and defeated Luke Skywalker and Kyle Katarn, two against one! He was even better than the real Darth Maul! Wow, this game is awesome! he thought. He beat the bots hundreds of times, and not once did they complain or call him a name for killing them the "wrong" way. Anakin liked dueling, but FFA was his favorite.

Finally, bots became too easy to beat and Anakin saw that there are real humans he could play against on the Internet. He was nervous but excited, his first online game! He had studied his official Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy(tm) game manual, the one that came with his game, to make sure he understood the rules correctly. He read in the manual that human opponents are more unpredictable than bots. He hoped they wouldn't be too hard to beat. Wow, what if he came in last, or even worse, didn't score even one kill. That would be soooo embarassing! He looked through the server list and saw one called True Honor Jedi server. Kewl, other honorable Jedi, just like him! And it was running Free for All, his favorite game type!

Nervous and excited, Anakin joined the game. He saw some players in a group, standing around watching some other players having a lightsaber battle. They were distracted, and some of them had funny brown balloons above their heads. A perfect opportunity for an ambush, just like in Single-player! He grabbed a nearby rocket launcher and fired off some rockets into the group, then charged in and finished off the survivors with his mighty lightsaber. Awesome! Free for All with humans was even more fun than with bots!

The next thing he knew, his screen filled up with chat. "lamer!" "lamer!" "admin, Anakin lamed me!" What's a lamer? Anakin wondered. The server had an admin mod, and the next thing Anakin knew he was several feet up in the air, as if Darth Vader himself was choking him. Then he was knocked randomly around the map as if an invisible giant hand was slapping him around. Then he was down on the ground, unable to move, as if someone had paralyzed him.
"you stupid f***ing lamer, don't do that again!" someone named Admin Palpatine chastised.
"who, me? do what? what did I do?" Anakin implored, still helpless on the ground.
"f***ing noob, don't you know saber down = peace!" the admin yelled.
"what? what's a noob?" asked Anakin, scared and bewildered. This had never happened when he played against bots!
"don't kill people who are unarmed or chatting, noob!" berated the admin.
"isn't this FFA? why are they unarmed and chatting?" Anakin asked innocently.
"this isn't FFA, didn't you see the people dueling?"
"yes, but I thought this was FFA, the loading screen said Free For All, defeat your enemies to score points, so that's what I did" said Anakin, now completely confused.
"well this isn't FFA, are you blind? we are having honorable duels here" said the admin.
"sorry, I didn't know" said Anakin, afraid and eager to fit in with the honorable Jedi.

At last Anakin's character was able to get up and move. "i'll let it go this time noob, since you r new. but if it happens again i'll ban u and you'll never get into the True Honor Jedi Server again" grumbled the admin. "sorry" said a chastened Anakin, "I promise it won't happen again". "it better not" said Admin Palpatine. "remember, lamers and chatkillers have no honor".

Anakin put away his lightsaber and retreated to a quiet corner, watching the other players duel, stand, chat, sit, and twirl some distance away. *note to self, just because it says free for all, doesn't mean it is. never attack unarmed or chatting players. saber down = peace. lamers have no honor* he repeated to himself. Online gaming sure is different from Single-player or playing against bots, he thought. Why didn't they explain these important rules in his official Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy(tm) game manual?, he wondered. He felt like such an idiot.

Eager to please and fit in, Anakin quickly adopted the new Rules someone had carelessly left out of his official game manual. He made it a point to quickly bring every saber-down kill or chatkill to the attention of an admin so the "lamer" could be dealt with. He instantly yelled "stupid noob!" or "lamer!" whenever some newbie killed him while he strolled around or chatted with his saber off. When dueling, he demanded "bow moron, you honorless noob!" if some less-experienced player didn't make their character squat in front of him before dueling.

In time, he forgot about all the fun he had had in Single-player and against bots, the excitement of mad, unrestricted combat, the thrill of wiping out a room full of bad guys. Hanging out, dueling, and chatting with other honorable Jedi made him feel cool, not like those dorky noobs who would show up and lame people. Admin Palpatine was pleased. "I'm glad you finally learned about honor, Anakin" he praised, as they sat Indian-style and watched a helpless lamer choke and rise into the air as he was ampunished. Anakin swelled with pride.

One evening, True Honor Jedi Server was full, and although Anakin waited as long as his 13-year-old patience would allow (2 minutes), he couldn't get in. Hmmm, maybe I'll try another server he thought. He sorted the FFA servers by number of players, and saw "Chop Shop INCREASED SABER DAMAGE FFA-CTF" server had a lot of players. "Hmm, what does CTF mean?" he wondered. "Oh well, at least it says FFA, so I should be able to get some honorable duels there". He joined the server, turned off his lightsaber, and strolled towards some players engaged in a lightsaber battle so he could challenge someone to a duel. He was shocked as he watched his character get vaporized by a well-placed sniper shot. "lamer!" he typed, but nothing happened. Puzzled, he clicked his mouse and was instantly reborn with 125 health, 25 shields, and a lightsaber in his hands, which he again turned off. He pressed "Y" and put up his chat balloon, but before he could type "who is admin?", Davin Kabak dropped a detpack in front of him and promptly blew him up. "lamer! chatkiller!" he typed, but again he was ignored. No one was chatting much, they seemed to be too busy fighting. Now he was getting mad. He respawned yet again, and saw a Twilek female named jen. He approached her and repeatedly pressed his "K" key to challenge her to a duel. But no matter how many times he pressed his "K" key, nothing happened. Instead, jen gripped him, jumped into the air, backflipped, and flung Anakin into a lake of molten lava. "laaaaaamerrrrrrrr!!" he typed as he plummetted into the lava and slipped beneath the surface.

This was ridiculuous! He had been lamed three times in the past minute and no one had been ampunished! "stupid noobs, don't you know saber down = peace?" Anakin whined. Of course, Anakin didn't know that some of the players he was calling noobs were veteran FPS gamers who had started with the original DOOM back in 1993, back when Anakin and Admin Palpatine were still having issues with potty training. "not on this server" answered ]eVe[The Pink Panther, the player who had sniped Anakin. "didn't you read the server messages? all kills are legal here, don't whine when you die". "you're all a bunch of honorless lamers!" Anakin snivelled. "yeah, we're all a bunch of lamers, now stfu and fight" said jen. "where's the admin, I'll get all you lamers banned!" Anakin demanded. "admins not here, and even if she was she wouldn't care" Davin Kabak answered. "now quit whining or leave".

Anakin respawned and tried to fight, but his once-formidable FFA skills had withered away from too much standing around and chatting on the True Honor Jedi server. He found himself repeatedly decapitated, cut in half, and thrown to his doom. Finally, the game mercifully came to an end when {JE}RED-5{C} hit the fraglimit with 100 kills. His worst nightmare realized, not only did Anakin come in last, he didn't score even one kill. His killtracker was quiet the whole game. Anakin got in one last "LAMERS!" before he disconnected.

His pride wounded, he went back to the safety of his "peaceful FFA" True Honor Jedi server, which was no longer full. "wassup Anakin" greeted Admin Palpatine. "i've just been to hell" reported Anakin. "?" asked Palpatine. "this server called Chop Shop" moaned Anakin. "i've heard of them" said Admin Palpatine. "nothing there but lamers and chatkillers". "i HATE lamers" said Anakin, "we should all go back over there and teach those noobs some honor". "yeah, but I need your help controlling the lamers here", said Palpatine. Palpatine turned towards Anakin. "we've decided to make you an admin. you'll be able to teach noob lamers and chatkillers about true honor. come with me, my young apprentice" commanded Palpatine.

Anakin, his 13-year-old hands trembling and sweaty with excitement, made his character slowly bow before Palpatine. "yes, my master" Anakin answered.

And with that, Anakin's journey towards the Dark Side was complete.

theguyincorner
11-25-2003, 04:49 AM
That was by far the best story I have ever read in my entire life! I felt his pain, triumph, and his fall. It's funny because it's true that's how most 'Honourable Players' are born. I don't care if I go onto a clan server and people are hanging out and dueling and stuff, it can be fun. What bothers me is the constant abuse that was around in JK2, you breathe wrong and your under a vicious attack by some admins. I am by no means saying that all honour players are lying hypocritical kids... but many are. If you keep your rules on your server (after all it is a 'server' which means you have every right to do whatever you want on there, because it belongs to you) brining them to servers you have no power over is rediculous. On Chop Shop I try to explain that there is no laming on this server, as many other frequent players there do, but when they keep whining and stuff it gets a tad frustrating. Even on the JE server -which amidala is so gracious to let us use even though we crash it everytime we get on with cheats lol- while we were using the ol' cheat commands and npc spawns on KOTR flight school. some guy from a clan came and had all these messages bound to diffrent keys... like "don't shoot this ship blah blhalkaabsldkfjlksd" and soforth. we explained "uhh no there are no rules do what you want" and he went on... later while on the matrix reloaded map he started telling people what they could and couldnt do then started threatening to ban. Around this time he got kicked but he came back later and shaped up... a little. All this to say when you come to a new server ask if there are laming rules or not don't just assume everyone follows the unwritten code of conduct.

and as for admin mod for jk2 and once it comes out for jk3 don't abuse it please for everyones sake. I understand how having control over people can be a tempting thing but a lot of people take it too far. When I was made admin (actualy moderator is a better word) on the jk2 chop shop server I had already lost the novelty of this kind of stuff from when I used to run a team fortress classic server (the best game ever made btw) so I used the powers probobly only like 15 times throughout that period. Probobly the most useful command was amsleep and ampsay cuz you can get someones attention that way. kicking someone means they will just come back and a temporary ban usualy confuses people because the word ban denotes permanancy, it's better just to straighten them out :D

I don't think there needs to be a huge war between people who prefer honour and those who don't because it's just that a preferance. Just make sure you know where you are when you are trying to make others adhere to rules that don't necissarily apply.

Lightsaberboy
11-25-2003, 05:13 AM
i smell a pulitzer Amidala! it almost made me cry.....


i actually used to be one of those saber down chatters in jk2 back in the day the first month many a year ago, cause every server i went to was like that, so i thought that was how it was, but when i went to a gun server, i was confused for the first minute, then said "whoa, this is a heck of a lot more fun than sitting around doin nuttin!" and started blowing people away.

ahh..good times...

FK | unnamed
11-25-2003, 05:42 AM
Heh cute story Amidala, but to be honest it's not just this series that gets this treatment.

Granted I will say the JK2/JA crowds seem to push it to insanely extreme levels at times, but it's like this in pretty much all online gaming now in one way shape or form.


I'm sure some of you may have heard the term "The Continuing Pussification of America" from comedians or in various social commentaries.

Online gaming is no different, for the last few years it has been slowly transforming from "the lawless wild west where anything goes" to a more happy, family friendly, sanitized, politically correct world.

I mean in pretty much every online game I could go out and play right now, there is some type of admin mod system that will cancel all of my credit cards and have me audited by the I.R.S if I dare to call someone a prick in a chat room.

Not to mention the people in charge of things are usually 13 year old neo Nazi/ dragon ball Z fanatics who’s highlight of the day is IP banning people who say the F word in a video game.

Every game I play has some type of non-stop pissing, moaning and whining in it these days it seems.
In RTCW: ET it’s spawn killing, in JK it’s laming, so on… so on…

And not to get off on some type of social commentary type of rant, but look around at the real world for a second, the days of the beer drinking, red meat eating, chain smoking John Wayne’s of this world are long gone.

You know, the type of people who didn't cry/bitch/sue every time they didn't get their way.

We now have latte sipping, sandal wearing, tree hugging pansies who dial 911 on their cell phones in fear of their life when another driver shoots them the finger on the highway… so why expect people to behave any different in their off time in recreational games?


You know as messed up as this sounds, I really miss the days in games where if I said:

"**** you" to a player...

I got a "**** you too!" back instend of "ADDDDMIIINNNNN!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU HEAR WHAT HE SAID TO MEEEEEE!!!???"


:mad:

oh well.
:(

eniaC
11-25-2003, 07:16 AM
wow:eyes3:

*edit* regarding the story, excellent.

CapNColostomy
11-25-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
Heh cute story Amidala, but to be honest it's not just this series that gets this treatment.

Granted I will say the JK2/JA crowds seem to push it to insanely extreme levels at times, but it's like this in pretty much all online gaming now in one way shape or form.


I'm sure some of you may have heard the term "The Continuing Pussification of America" from comedians or in various social commentaries.

Online gaming is no different, for the last few years it has been slowly transforming from "the lawless wild west where anything goes" to a more happy, family friendly, sanitized, politically correct world.

I mean in pretty much every online game I could go out and play right now, there is some type of admin mod system that will cancel all of my credit cards and have me audited by the I.R.S if I dare to call someone a prick in a chat room.

Not to mention the people in charge of things are usually 13 year old neo Nazi/ dragon ball Z fanatics who’s highlight of the day is IP banning people who say the F word in a video game.

Every game I play has some type of non-stop pissing, moaning and whining in it these days it seems.
In RTCW: ET it’s spawn killing, in JK it’s laming, so on… so on…

And not to get off on some type of social commentary type of rant, but look around at the real world for a second, the days of the beer drinking, red meat eating, chain smoking John Wayne’s of this world are long gone.

You know, the type of people who didn't cry/bitch/sue every time they didn't get their way.

We now have latte sipping, sandal wearing, tree hugging pansies who dial 911 on their cell phones in fear of their life when another driver shoots them the finger on the highway… so why expect people to behave any different in their off time in recreational games?


You know as messed up as this sounds, I really miss the days in games where if I said:

"**** you" to a player...

I got a "**** you too!" back instend of "ADDDDMIIINNNNN!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU HEAR WHAT HE SAID TO MEEEEEE!!!???"


:mad:

oh well.
:(

Agreed. Although some games are worse about the whining than others. I like 'em and all but JO and JA are by far worse than any others I've played.

STTCT
11-25-2003, 10:14 AM
Sometimes you feel like kickin some jedi - ass balls out - and other times you just feel like pretending your in medieval times. Either way - its all about fun.

Damn the people who scream Noob etc... It is as annoying as hell.

The honor system is a little freakish to me. Because for my first MP game I happened upon one of these types of "honor games". Here I thought I could just go chopping away - but then found out about all the other rules - and I was greatly dissapointed.

Its all in how you like to play I guess.

Astrotoy7
11-25-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
I'm sure some of you may have heard the term "The Continuing Pussification of America" from comedians or in various social commentaries.

Not to mention the people in charge of things are usually 13 year old neo Nazi/ dragon ball Z fanatics who’s highlight of the day is IP banning people who say the F word in a video game.

And not to get off on some type of social commentary type of rant, but look around at the real world for a second, the days of the beer drinking, red meat eating, chain smoking John Wayne’s of this world are long gone.

:violin:

You know, the type of people who didn't cry/bitch/sue every time they didn't get their way.


We now have latte sipping, sandal wearing, tree hugging pansies who dial 911 on their cell phones in fear of their life when another driver shoots them the finger on the highway… so why expect people to behave any different in their off time in recreational games?

:violin:

You know as messed up as this sounds, I really miss the days in games where if I said:

"**** you" to a player...

I got a "**** you too!" back instend of "ADDDDMIIINNNNN!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU HEAR WHAT HE SAID TO MEEEEEE!!!???"

oh well.


Unnamed, you've made me glad I dont live in US, but I still think you are drawing a rather large bow, alot of generalisations there.

..and John Wayne was a draft dodger, right ? Yep, real tough guy

Too bad George W hasnt heard of the "Pussification" theory, otherwise..... This is a **computer game** forum so I'll stop that rant NOW :( oh well

Poor 13 year olds cop it on this forum, the perennial scapegoats. If it wasnt for their parents $$$ we most likely wouldnt have a game to play.... The game doesn't have a "T" rating for nothing, its the target demographic, plain and simple.

Amidala, your story was fun to read but I think once again, if I was a 'younger player' reading these threads, it would be very discouraging to venture into the world of MP....

Rather than conjuring cliched, generalistic stories, or moaning like an old fart about how things used to be in the "good ole days", we should be setting some type of example, or at least creating an environment which encourages younger players to play, and to learn to abide by the rules that have been established. This applies to a server, and in a broader sense to real life experiences, at least to the extent of communication and respect for others. Hostility begets a hostile demeanour IMHO.

PEACE & GOOD WILL to ALL 13-15 year old gamers !
[Special shout out to Mana....KUPO!!!]

MTFBWYA

*Resumes waiting for local release of KOTOR PC*
*Resumes reading NJO : TUF*

PG|Prometheus
11-25-2003, 03:02 PM
Just because a 13 year old orthodox honour guy, member of The Worldwide Church of Crouch Bowing is an admin, it doesn't mean its his server. Most servers are funded by people with jobs and I doubt any parent would pay over around $90 for what they see as a pointless computer game. Theres few people of the older generation that don't think playing mp games is a pointless waste of time (let alone money), and when you see arguements like this, I believe it does nothing more than solidify their arguement.

Agreed the honour guys shouldn't enforce their codes everywhere they go. However, just because a guy bows at you, it doesn't mean he's a total retard hell bent on gauging your eyes out untill you bow back. I believe the custom of bowing occupies the majority, although only a smaller circle make up this hardcore honour council. For the mosty part, I usually bow before a duel. I couldn't care less what the other guy/girl does.

My point is, its not the honour things that create the problem, they make the game more 'family friendly' (I would say British, but not wishing to add racial slurs :P).
The real problem is the crowd of honour junkies that get off on bowing. Therefore, the solution isnt to condemn the honour stuff entirely, but to just focus your disatisfaction on the group that tyranically enforces it.

Luc Solar
11-25-2003, 03:32 PM
Amidala, that was one beautiful story..and so true, so very true.

It should be a sticky. :)

Kurgan
11-25-2003, 03:45 PM
At the end of the day, the winner is the person/team with the most frags/captures/objectives completed, not who played at being the "most honorable."

If people want to stay in last place while they tap the crouch and taunt keys, that's fine with me.

I don't believe that all the "honor" players are young kids, but it should be pointed out that many are, because of the simple fact that they are more susceptable to the "peer pressure" of the honor d00dz and their evangelization efforts.

Additionally, there's a logical reason they are more susceptable and that's that they are new to the gaming community and don't realize that in the past, this sort of thing simply didn't exist. They just assume that it's how the world works. So it's not really their fault, they're just misinformed (dare I say "brainwashed") by the cultish attitudes of some of the "honor elite" folk.

I knew a few players who are very young and they play by my "no rules" philosophy and don't whine on my server.

The thing is, some people consider the "honor" stuff "more fun."

The trouble is, that they don't realize to others (like myself) the honor thing is "less fun." If they can respect that, then the whole controversy is solved.

Btw, good story!

Neverhoodian
11-25-2003, 03:50 PM
Lol, good story, Amidala!

This is how I handle the "honor" thing.

If it's FFA, I spectate for a handful of seconds or so. (that's usually all the time I need to see if it's an "honor" server or a "fighting" server. After all, if everyone's just standing around with saber off, it's a good bet it's an "honor" server) If it's a "fighting" server I throw the "honor" codes out the window and participate in a frantic no-hands-barred slash-fest. If it's an "honor" server, I'll walk around with saber down and will chat and occassionally politely chastise individuals who have no life beyond computer games.

As far as Duels and Power Duels are concerned, I always wait to see if my opponent(s) bows first before I bow. If not, then I don't worry about it and commence fighting. (I will say "good game" when it's done, after all)

For CTF and Siege, it's all about teamwork, and how can you help your team if you're just sitting around doing nothing? I play to win in those servers regardless. (though I will leave individuals alone who are standing in an obscure corner with the chatbox on.)

Basically, I'm willing to go along with the "honor" code if need be, but I'm by no means a stickler for it. I merely adapt to the different servers and have fun in both "honor" and "fighting" servers.

CapNColostomy
11-25-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
I'm sure some of you may have heard the term "The Continuing Pussification of America" from comedians or in various social commentaries.

To go off topic a minute, wasn't that George Carlin?

Chuahtemoc
11-25-2003, 07:13 PM
i've never heard that before, but it's happening to ppl who can't play in jedi academy. damn women! jk lol

but who is george carlin anyway?

TK-8252
11-25-2003, 08:42 PM
Amidala, that was a good (and sadly true) story. It really shows how screwed up some people can get.

(Once again advertising my server) If someone is clearly new to the game, often we tell the person that these rules do not apply in all servers. These are individual server rules. But I know that not all admins are as nice as those at JK3Files. :(

Kurgan
11-25-2003, 10:58 PM
George Carlin is a stand-up comedien, famed for his sarcasm and grouchiness.

Chuahtemoc
11-25-2003, 11:02 PM
ahhhh

feels enlightened

i knew i heard that name somewhere.

Master William
11-26-2003, 12:07 AM
Indeed, Amidala, very nice story there.

I actually prefer a bit of both. Sometimes, I just connect to the ''honor'' servers, and watch people duel, or I simply talk to people, but I still fight.

Sometimes though, I also prefer just playing the game as it is supposed to be played. I just connect to any server, hack and slash people, and watch my score rise.

I get tired of the same thing easily (I'm like that) so this is why I tend to switch between these two 'life-styles' (just kidding ;)).
I used to be like that, though. I whined my ass off when I played JK2.

Butt_Whisper
11-26-2003, 01:22 AM
George Carlin is funny as hell; I have seen him live, and was rolling the wole time. Yes, I do believe it was Carlin's last HBO special.

boinga1
11-26-2003, 02:44 AM
Touching, touching story Amidala. The great tragedy of our time. I almost shed a tear wgen I read:

Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Anakin respawned and tried to fight, but his once-formidable FFA skills had withered away from too much standing around and chatting on the True Honor Jedi server.

:(

Personally, I don't see how any adolescent boy could enjoy bowing and walking around. I mean, most kids like Star Wars because it's KEWL. Most kids who buy Star Wars games buy them because they hope the game will be KEWL like the movies. Well, last I checked, Yoda didn't do a KEWL bow to Dooku, and Maul didn't use his KEWL taunts on Qui-gon. Yoda used KEWL moves on Dooku, and Maul KEWLy owned Qui-gon's butt (no offence).

So, I'm like, what in the freaking heck?

Rumor
11-26-2003, 07:30 AM
*sobs* that was beautiful amidala *cries*

lol j/k but it was a damn good story and touching ;)

Astrotoy7
11-26-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
...... is a stand-up comedien, famed for his sarcasm and grouchiness.

LOL

Are you sure you're not describing Unnamed there, K ?! :p

jus kiddin......

I keep getting that Carlin guy mixed up with Jeff Foxworthy, the guy who's made a mint doin that "you might be a redneck.." stuff IIRC (Im not from the US so Im not fully in the know about american comedians)

eg. "If you get pissed off when you enter a server called TRUE HONOUR JEDI and want to teach them all a lesson 'cause theyre all bowin and dont do things the way you think is right, then you might be a redneck...."

MTFWBYA

atx250
11-26-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
MTFWBYA

May The Force With Be You Always???

:D :D :D



atx250

Astrotoy7
11-26-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by atx250
May The Force With Be You Always???

:D :D :D

atx250

yep

I know its a bit geeky, but I like to add it to signify I'm more of a SW fan than a hardcore FPS gamer :p

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-26-2003, 03:08 PM
Thanks to all of you who took the time to read my literary masterpiece and liked it:amidala:

As you might guess, Anakin's story came from my own experiences, but with one crucial difference.

Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast was the first online game I ever played. I came to it later than most, around November 2002. Like Anakin, I loved SP, and played my saved games over and over to practice fighting Tavion and Reborn. Later I moved on to playing against bots, and had countless fun bot battles.

Around January-February 2003, I finally got up the nerve to go online. Fortunately, unlike poor Anakin, the Force was with me. By shear dumb luck, two of the first servers I happened to go to were the oE server Cardassia Prime (later the Obsidian Empire) and HuntingWabbits.com. These were (and are) two great, classic, pure, true Free for All servers. They were Full Force, Full Weapon, no "honor code" servers populated by pretty good players. I guess I was attracted to them because people were really playing the game the way the Makers intended it to be played, and the way I had played against bots: no-holds-barred combat. Of course, being a newbie, I was completely outclassed, but I was in awe of the good players I encountered there. I would go to spectator and follow the leaders to try and learn their secrets. I remember wondering "how does oE|EidolonJM move so fast doing that hopping maneuver?" (strafe jumping).

With Cardassia Prime and HuntingWabbits.com serving as my "frame of referrence", I eventually checked out some other servers. I would sort servers by ping and then go to the "Free for All" servers with the most players, expecting to see more great combat and players, as I had experienced at my two fav servers. I was generally appalled by what I saw. Often I would go to supposedly-busy "Free for All" servers and find a bunch of people sitting or standing around, not doing much. Some people would try to get some action going, but would suddenly disappear (get kicked). I think I even got kicked, but I didn't know what had happened.

Other times I would go to other servers and find people trying to play. I remember going to a server and watching from spectator, as I usually did when I went to a new server. Someone was trying to play, but he suddenly collapsed as if paralyzed, and some other player with a double-bladed lightsaber was standing over him lecturing him about something. I also saw some people who looked like they were being choked as they were being yelled at. There seemed to be as many of these "police officers" as there were players. People seemed very timid and inhibited, as if they were terrified of doing something wrong and being punished for it. It was a vision of online hell. I never left spectator and I never went back to those places.

As much as I loved gunning on Cardassia and HuntingWabbits, I was disappointed with the lightsabers. Of course, coming late to the game I had only known the 1.04 patch with its nerfed-to-near-useless lightsabers. The lightsabers seemed only good for defense, and that didn't seem right to me. I discovered how to increase lightsaber damage, and that was way more fun and "realistic" for me, but I couldn't find any servers set up like that. Even though I had zero knowledge or experience running a server (remember, JKII:JO was my first online game), in March 2003 I decided to run a server from my home and called it Chop Shop. It was like my two fav servers in spirit and attitude, but with stronger lightsabers. It was then that I discovered I was better at running servers than I was at playing on them. (It was a real thrill when some of the players I had seen on Cardassia and HuntingWabbits started coming to my servers). But that's another story, and this post is already long enough. I will always be grateful there were servers like Cardassia Prime and HuntingWabbits where the spirit of true Free for All was kept alive in an otherwise bleak, oppressive, depressing server galaxy. Otherwise, I might have ended up as Anakin did in my story *shudders*

Novelle Tion
11-26-2003, 10:54 PM
The rational, mature players make up a minority in a gaming community?

Who'd have thunk it?

If you can't join a random server and expect a good game, what is this world coming to? <------ Sarcasm

Played any other popular online FPSes lately? Or in the past few years? Cheating, spawn-camping, homophobia, insults, and all other exploits and general nastiness capable of happening will happen online, especially in FPSes; this comes standard with the demographic and/or anonymous nature of the internet.

Although the internet is globalizing the things we do as never before, your problem here is still textbook sociology 101. You aren't going to change anything by moaning on a message board and expecting things to change 'just because they should.' Some of you here should know better than that.

Why do you do this to yourselves? It seems almost masochistic at times. Inquisitive minds want to know.

Cal-Gon Gin
11-26-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Novelle Tion


Why do you do this to yourselves? It seems almost masochistic at times. Inquisitive minds want to know.

Because when it works, it is some of the most fun I've had.

I've been playing online since Quake, at all levels. I put in my dues as a newb on a 33.6K modem in Quakeworld FFA. There were some servers that were furious, all out fragging fun. Quite a comraderie was born with the folks who frequented those servers too, and I still know many of those folks, almost 5 years later.

But man, is there some poor behaviour, and whiney kids, out there. I'm playing JA as a female character, and I had no idea how much abuse gets lashed out (especially if you beat folks). My respect for the women out there who play as females has grown tremendously.

I'm playing duel almost exclusively these days, and the new things folks think of to yell at me is astounding. The latest one was how the "silly b*tch should stop running around". Um, should I just STAND THERE AND LET YOU HIT ME? *shakes head* Unbelievable.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-27-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Novelle Tion
You aren't going to change anything by moaning on a message board and expecting things to change 'just because they should.' Some of you here should know better than that.

Why do you do this to yourselves? It seems almost masochistic at times. Inquisitive minds want to know.

Ever hear about the theory that a butterfly flapping its wings in the Indonesian jungle can set off a chain of events that changes the weather in Indiana? No? How about the old saying: for the want of a nail, the shoe was lost. For the want of a shoe the horse was lost. For the want of a horse, a rider was lost. For the want of a rider the battle was lost. And because the battle was lost, the war was lost.

Look what happened when a piece of foam insulation hit the wing of the space shuttle Columbia. Sometimes small things can have large effects.

The postings here by Luc Solar, FK | unnamed, Rad Blackrose, Rumor, Kurgan, Prime, and many others, and even the opposing viewpoints of Coraith, Master William, TK8252MJL and others have had a profound effect on the way I look at the game and the way I run my servers. And because literally hundreds if not thousands of players from all over the world have spent time playing on my servers during the past eight months, the postings on this forum have affected the way many, many people have played and enjoyed these games.

Not bad for a lot of "moaning".

Minds can be changed. If they're open, that is:amidala:

Rad Blackrose
11-27-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Novelle Tion
The rational, mature players make up a minority in a gaming community?

Who'd have thunk it?

If you can't join a random server and expect a good game, what is this world coming to? <------ Sarcasm

Played any other popular online FPSes lately? Or in the past few years? Cheating, spawn-camping, homophobia, insults, and all other exploits and general nastiness capable of happening will happen online, especially in FPSes; this comes standard with the demographic and/or anonymous nature of the internet.

Although the internet is globalizing the things we do as never before, your problem here is still textbook sociology 101. You aren't going to change anything by moaning on a message board and expecting things to change 'just because they should.' Some of you here should know better than that.

Why do you do this to yourselves? It seems almost masochistic at times. Inquisitive minds want to know.

I think I'm going to print this, frame it, then put the caption "Worthless Reply of the Year" underneath it.

Massive forum carnage. This and more at 10 o'clock.

TK-8252
11-27-2003, 04:47 AM
I thought I'd contribute a story of my own...

This is a story about how some of you competetive players can be as bad as the honor players. The name of the player will not be revielded.

So this guy came in the JK3Files Server, and started playing the traditional style FFA, where you just attack everyone. I was the only admin in at the time. I started getting complaints of the player laming and chat killing. So I had to check it out. To my suprise, there he was... Laming me! So I showed my rule binds to him. Then some other player started to attack him and lured him away from me. So he has now seen the rules, so I expect him to obey them. I started to hear more complaints against him. I told him:

"we dont like to be attacked if our saber is turned off"

"Saber turned off = dont attack us! this is NOT a traditional FFA!"

He then responded by saying:

"Well I like to attack you and I dont acre about your gay code"

I put up my language rule bind. 'Gay' is not allowed there.

He then said:

"So I DONT CAYA"

"I DO WHAT I WANT"

So he has no respect for the rules or the people in it. So I used good ol' rcon.

The entire server cheered his kick.

Guys, please, respect the server rules.

Novelle Tion
11-27-2003, 05:47 AM
Ever hear about the theory that a butterfly flapping its wings in the Indonesian jungle can set off a chain of events that changes the weather in Indiana? No? How about the old saying: for the want of a nail, the shoe was lost. For the want of a shoe the horse was lost. For the want of a horse, a rider was lost. For the want of a rider the battle was lost. And because the battle was lost, the war was lost.

Look what happened when a piece of foam insulation hit the wing of the space shuttle Columbia. Sometimes small things can have large effects.

I've most certainly heard of this. Anyone that wants a better example of this kind of thinking need only watch Run Lola Run, it's evidenced quite poignantly there as the movie's main theme. That's not very useful in this argument, though, because the long list of simulatenous, interwoven factors that produce a given situation are much, much too complex to be precisely charted in cases like these.

Okay, Yes, :rolleyes: I'll admit that a small something you or anyone else here does, could, when combined with a mesh of a mind-boggling number of other things, produce a dramatic change in the community. This would be impossible to calculate and prove, however, without an extreme amount of over simplication simplified (read: erroneously) to prove your point. It would likely be pure happenstance. If I have to, I'll demonstrate this.

The postings here by Luc Solar, FK | unnamed, Rad Blackrose, Rumor, Kurgan, Prime, and many others, and even the opposing viewpoints of Coraith, Master William, TK8252MJL and others have had a profound effect on the way I look at the game and the way I run my servers. And because literally hundreds if not thousands of players from all over the world have spent time playing on my servers during the past eight months, the postings on this forum have affected the way many, many people have played and enjoyed these games.

Not bad for a lot of "moaning".

But not very good, either, at least per the the problem being dicussed here. I would say you dramatically overstate your own importance. The main issue here is the composition of the community at large, which, at least as identified by many of these people, features a majority of bow-obsessed assclowns. Either your efforts are precise and/or massive enough to be linked in a seriess of events to reduction of these players in the overall community or they aren't.

Or to put it another way: Do or do not. There is no try. Reapeted messageboard moaning definitely falls in the later category.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-27-2003, 05:50 AM
I'm not sure you can call that rude person a "competitive" player unless you know for a fact that they participate in organized ladder competition. He was clearly in the category of "a-hole" however. It's not fair to call a random a-hole a "competitive" player (although I suspect that most competitive players will concede that a few of their fellow competitive players are in fact also a-holes).

In my opinion, however, someone who says "saber down = peace" or "lamer" is by definition a follower of an "honor code" of some type and is instantly recognizable as such.

You did your job well TK, exactly as your duty required of you.

Isn't it annoying when people try to impose their way of thinking on your server? Now you know how I feel when people come to my server and starting cursing about "laming" and "saber down = peace, f***tard".

I found it interesting to compare your server's rules and the number of admins necessary to enforce them vs. my server's:

JK3Files Server Rules

Please read these rules very carefully. You will be held responsible for knowing them. The rules for the server are:

DO NOT ATTACK SABER DOWN OR CHATTING PLAYERS
DO NOT USE INTERACTIVE FORCE IF YOUR SABER IS DOWN
DO NOT USE OFFENSIVE OR ABUSIVE LANGUAGE

Explanations of these rules and additional rules are below.

ADMINS
Admins have the right to determine whether or not you have broken the rules. An admin's decision is final, regardless of whether you think the decision is stupid or not...You may be given a warning if you break the rules. Failure to comply will result in your being kicked, and possibly banned.

If you feel it necessary to question the judgement of an admin, do so via email to one or both of the head admins. If you harass an admin on the server regarding a decision he/she made, your disagreement with a particular rule, or if you cause any interference with an admin doing their job, expect to be kicked from the server.

Head Admins:
AmosMagee
ShroomDuck

Current Admins:
Atlas
Chrono
DarkOne
Jem
LadyNikita
Plague
RasinHeck
Ravage
Stealth
Tek
TK8252

LAMING
Laming will not be tolerated on the JK3Files server. Do not attack anyone with his or her saber down, period. Attacks include saber and force (and kicking when applicable). Any attack with a saber, including saber throw, is considered laming. Using force on an unarmed player is also not allowed. Yes, even drain and push and pull are considered attacks. If you attack anyone whose saber is down with your saber or with force, you will be kicked.

Do not use "sabering down" as a means of defense. By this, we mean, you are not to attack someone and then immediately drop your saber so you cannot be attacked back. If it appears you are doing this intentionally, you will be kicked.

Your saber MUST be up before using force. The reason for this rule is because if someone, without their saber on, grips someone else and throws them off a cliff, no one can legitimately attack that person because their saber is down. If you continually attack with your saber off, you will be kicked from the server.

Also, we do not allow "revenge laming". As noble as you may think it is, we will remove you from the server if you "lame lamers".

LANGUAGE/ATTITUDE
No offensive language. By offensive, we mean the really, really bad words in excess. Offensive language includes anything derogatory; whether it’s sexually derogatory or just plain mean. Words that refer to sexual preference used inappropriately will not be tolerated. Most words that you hear on television are acceptable. What is more important is whether those words are used in a confrontational manner. For example, “life’s a b*tch,” can be tolerated, while “you b*tch” cannot. Though we are flexible with some name-calling if the tone is obviously light and no offense was intended. F**k and s**t are NEVER tolerated under any circumstances, nor are ANY form of racial epithets, whether pointing to any race’s superiority or inferiority. Taunts may be mean-spirited, to a degree. If it’s too offensive, you will be asked to not use those particular taunts. Anything you say to make someone else uncomfortable will be met with a request to stop. If you do not stop, you will be kicked.

SCRIPTS
No scripts. If we suspect you are using scripts, (or any other cheats for that matter), you will be asked not to. If you continue to use them, you will be kicked or banned.

DUEL INTERFERENCE
No interfering with duels. This means, stay out of the way of duelists and do not try to distract someone while they are dueling. If you are in the way of a duel, expect to be forcibly moved by an admin. If you are interfering with a duel, you will be kicked from the server.

KILL TRACKERS
Kill Trackers (KT) are useful for some people for many reasons. However, the constant kill tracker messages in a crowded server playing an FFA can be a bit much. So we have decided to not allow KT messages on the server anymore. Please be sure that that feature on your KT is turned off. If you do use a KT and are asked to disable the messages and do not, you will be kicked. If you continue to ignore our request, you will be banned.

BANNED MODELS
Some models or skins have been banned from our server either because they're partially invisible or they have an inconsistant hitbox and/or damage model compared to the other models, giving the user an unfair advantage. Those models/skins not allowed on the JK3Files server include:

Half invisible Luke & Kyle
Jawa


Now here's my admin roster:

Admin Amidala (nowhere to be found most of the time)

and my rules:

LAMING
All kills are legal, don't whine when you die.
No suicide during Team FFA.

LANGUAGE/ATTITUDE
No racist or extremely abusive language, as judged by the admin.

KILL TRACKERS
No killtracker or other forms of spam (chat bind abuse). Killtrackers can be used in silent mode.

Notice the difference in complexity and the number of admins necessary for enforcement. Does all that complexity provide a commensurate improvement of the game playing experience? Oh well, at least we agree about those twin scourges, racism and killtrackers.

SlapNut
11-27-2003, 05:57 AM
ACS:"Do not attack anyone with his or her saber down, period."

what if people r ryining the game fir you by runing around with their sabre down being idiots, if they do it too long then kill tghem to ghet them angry thus they start attacking you, then you start having fun, so the word 'period' shouldnt be aplicable in that sentance, cos there is exeptions.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-27-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Novelle Tion
I would say you dramatically overstate your own importance.

Perhaps. But every little bit helps!
And you sir, underestimate the true power of "moaning":amidala:

The main issue here is the composition of the community at large, which, at least as identified by many of these people, features a majority of bow-obsessed assclowns. Either your efforts are precise and/or massive enough to be linked in a seriess of events to reduction of these players in the overall community or they aren't.

Or to put it another way: Do or do not. There is no try. Reapeted messageboard moaning definitely falls in the later category.

So in other words, if you aren't 100% successful, any improvement in the situation is meaningless? And any effort to effect change is worthless "moaning" if it isn't immediately and massively successful? I'm glad I don't think that way, or I'd never be able to cope with the multiple failures that often precede success, or with the glacial but steady pace of human progress.

I say the glass is half-full. You say it's half-empty, which to you is the same as totally empty, since it isn't full.

I'd still rather fight the good fight, because the emails I receive and the spontaneous unsolicited comments that I read in my servers' logs tell me I am "doing" (making a difference).

My response to defeatists and sideline-sitters:

Originally posted by Theodore Roosevelt
"In the battle of life, it is not the critic who counts; nor the one who points out how the strong person stumbled, or where the doer of a deed could have done better.

The credit belongs to the person who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; who does actually strive to do deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotion, spends oneself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at worst, if he or she fails, at least fails while daring greatly.

Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those timid spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."

Rumor
11-27-2003, 07:18 AM
wow amidala you just ****ing owned him...

Rumor
11-27-2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
I thought I'd contribute a story of my own...

This is a story about how some of you competetive players can be as bad as the honor players. The name of the player will not be revielded.

So this guy came in the JK3Files Server, and started playing the traditional style FFA, where you just attack everyone. I was the only admin in at the time. I started getting complaints of the player laming and chat killing. So I had to check it out. To my suprise, there he was... Laming me! So I showed my rule binds to him. Then some other player started to attack him and lured him away from me. So he has now seen the rules, so I expect him to obey them. I started to hear more complaints against him. I told him:

"we dont like to be attacked if our saber is turned off"

"Saber turned off = dont attack us! this is NOT a traditional FFA!"

He then responded by saying:

"Well I like to attack you and I dont acre about your gay code"

I put up my language rule bind. 'Gay' is not allowed there.

He then said:

"So I DONT CAYA"

"I DO WHAT I WANT"

So he has no respect for the rules or the people in it. So I used good ol' rcon.

The entire server cheered his kick.

Guys, please, respect the server rules.

wasn't a competitive player, thanks.

1. oldschool competitive saber only clans never play this game unless it is for a match. there are a total of two of those. these are the clans that would go around ****ing with honor nubs after they had started invading every server.

2. competitive gun clans only play on guns servers. there are 20 some of these clans.

Astrotoy7
11-27-2003, 07:44 AM
***Wiping tears from his eyes, Astrotoy7 backs away from the shining prize that is online MP happiness***'

It is interesting to read all viewpoints, but the more I read, the sadder I get :( such consternation over what, a computer game..... :violin:

BTW, no one 'owns' anyone anymore, massa

Has anyone played the SP co-op mod yet ? I think we should pair an "honor dood" with a FFA Rambo, or anti-saberist, and let them use their respective strengths and weaknesses to vanquish foes !!

*takes off rose colored glasses* :p

MTFBWYA

Novelle Tion
11-27-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
[B]Perhaps. But every little bit helps!
And you sir, underestimate the true power of "moaning":amidala:

:confused: Do I? You mentioned earlier that one of these Raven Star Wars Quakes (I forget which) was your first online gaming experience. Is this also your first heavy involvement in a relatively large online gaming community? I'll tell you what. If you are still around in 3 years and the community of whatever ****pile LEC dumps on on us next is largely united in maturity and harmony, I'll concede 'defeat.' So knock yourself out.

So in other words, if you aren't 100% successful, any improvement in the situation is meaningless?

No. Your words not mine. Meaningless to little Timmy who gets brief reprieve from his abusive dad by playing a quick game in a friendly, stable server environment? Certainly not. Meaningless in the context of the larger task at hand? Yes.

My response to defeatists and sideline-sitters:

Originally posted by Theodore Roosevelt
"In the battle of life, it is not the critic who counts; nor the one who points out how the strong person stumbled, or where the doer of a deed could have done better.

The credit belongs to the person who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; who does actually strive to do deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotion, spends oneself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at worst, if he or she fails, at least fails while daring greatly.

Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those timid spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."

Two problems with applying this dramatic quote to your, erm, efforts:

1) I'm sure Teddy didn't have attempts to reform the online behavior of snot-nosed fanboy brats who already have the luxury of sitting around playing computer games on relatively expensive pieces of machinery in mind when he said a "worthy cause"

and

2) running a handful of well-maintained servers and bitching on internet message boards is far from "daring greatly"-part of my original point. If you are indeed serious about changing the face of the JA community as much as you can it's going to take more than determination and the hope that your small efforts will trigger wide-spread reform- it's going to take some serious ingenuity and vision. I think my time in the trenches allows me the ability to offer such advice.

TK-8252
11-27-2003, 04:17 PM
Well I just called him "competetive" because he likes to actually fight. So what would have been the proper way to describe him?

Amidala is right. People who try to push their style of playing or rules on another server are just annoying. If people would use their brain, they'd learn which servers encourage their style of playing or with their rules and STAY THERE! Either that or just change how you play when you go to a different server with different rules (or no rules).

Rumor
11-27-2003, 06:00 PM
competitive players ladder. people who just fight are just regular joes playing the game like they should be.

i said oldschool competitive clans because right now the saber only ladders are populated by mostly honor nubs. there are only four clans on there that i can think of playing it seriously that aren't going to bitch and disconnect mid match. those being SL (hi dc ;)) NewReb (very nice guys they deserve every win they get, and moreso) ap, and of course my clan :)

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-27-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Novelle Tion
I'll concede 'defeat.' So knock yourself out.

I have no interest in "defeating" you. You said:

"Why do you do this to yourselves? It seems almost masochistic at times. Inquisitive minds want to know."

I am merely doing my best to answer your question. We find it to be useful, and in our opinion our "moaning" is having a positive effect. That we are not successful enough to suit you will not stop us from trying to improve things as we see it. If these threads annoy you so much, simply avoid them in the future. Who is forcing you to read and respond to them?

No. Your words not mine. Meaningless to little Timmy who gets brief reprieve from his abusive dad by playing a quick game in a friendly, stable server environment? Certainly not. Meaningless in the context of the larger task at hand? Yes.

This is an excerpt from an email I received this morning:

"I want to be the first to tell you how gratefull and appreciative I am for your philosphy and your servers,..."

I receive many such emails. Yes, this is not success with "the larger task at hand", but a win is a win. Change is often incremental, rarely sweeping and massive.

And the "philosophy" this player appreciates was molded to a large extent by my fellow "moaners" on this forum.

Two problems with applying this dramatic quote to your, erm, efforts:

1) I'm sure Teddy didn't have attempts to reform the online behavior of snot-nosed fanboy brats who already have the luxury of sitting around playing computer games on relatively expensive pieces of machinery in mind when he said a "worthy cause"

and

2) running a handful of well-maintained servers and bitching on internet message boards is far from "daring greatly"-part of my original point. If you are indeed serious about changing the face of the JA community as much as you can it's going to take more than determination and the hope that your small efforts will trigger wide-spread reform- it's going to take some serious ingenuity and vision. I think my time in the trenches allows me the ability to offer such advice.

Wow, such bitterness and contempt towards your fellow gamers. I admit some of them really annoy me, but I don't hate them as you seem to. Maybe you've been "in the trenches" too long.

I'm sorry my choice of quotes, as apparently everything else I do, is inadequate in your eyes. I promise I'll do better next time. As for "daring greatly", as Einstein might say, it's all relative. My point with the quote is that some of us are at least trying (and in my opinion having some success) to improve the situation. Tell me, other than sitting on the sidelines and mocking our efforts, what are you doing to effect the sweeping, global improvements you require as proof of success?

Which is the bigger waste of time, "moaning" on a forum, or writing posts criticizing "moaning" on forums?

As you formulate your response, I will let you have the last word, because this is already becoming repetitive. When people come to my servers and bitch about things, my regulars have a ready reply: "Don't like it? Then leave". Then they continue on enjoying themselves. I offer the same advice: if these threads annoy you so much, skip them. As I pointed out, no one is forcing you to read them, much less respond to them. We will continue on without you.

Oh, and BTW, Happy Thanksgiving!:amidala:

Novelle Tion
11-27-2003, 07:13 PM
Feh. You cant doubt my motives or hazard guesses as to my intentions all you want. I offered my two cents, take it or leave it. Welcome to the internet. Good luck and enjoy.

eniaC
11-27-2003, 07:57 PM
Well I think Amidala is doing a bang up job, I applaud her.
Usually when I check Amidala's ctf/ffa server is at the top 5 of the list when you search by # of players and ping, to me that makes a good server. The atmoshpere is great there, it's diverse, know what I mean.
Beside's it's is the only server run by a female, therefore my favorite.

"I'd still rather fight the good fight," - Amidala.
and that you are mi-lady, don't stop, your doing a great job and it shows. (btw: Are you single? j/k ;))
How many other folks have that popular of servers' in JA and JO, or spend that much time and money to keep servers running for people to play on when they don't even play that much, thats dedication and just plain out coolness, imho.

The simple fact, (that appears to me), is that she is doing this for other people to enjoy the game and that's sweet, good job.


eniaC


*edit* btw: Happy Thanksgiving all

Kurgan
11-28-2003, 04:45 AM
Happy Thanksgiving!


PS: Jawas are people too! Support Jawa Rights!

Lathain Valtiel
11-28-2003, 04:50 AM
I support the rights of Jawas!

...Their right to have my saber cutting their heads off! Hehehe.

Kurgan
11-28-2003, 04:55 AM
(*cute witto sad Jawa voice*)


Wrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrwwwwwwwwwww!!! http://www.lucasforums.com/images/smilies/frown.gifhttp://www.lucasforums.com/images/smilies/jawa.gif

Lathain Valtiel
11-28-2003, 04:58 AM
*CHOPS UP JAWA*

Darth Rythe
11-28-2003, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Dracofyre
Ahh yes, those honor loving smacktards of the JK MP universe. It is because of these guys, who love to bunch into groups and apparantly just talk to each other, that I am CONVICED that is why the saberstaff has a 360 degree hitting kata.

It is because of these "honor" freaks that JKO MP collapsed and the forum community died. It is also because of these guys that I still proudly bear my ASC tag, and will do all I can to make these honor morons cry and whine. If I get banned from the server, so much the better.

The minute you join the server you are a combatant. Saber off does NOT equal peace. Saber off DOES equal, you are a moron, here's a saber through your head. Same thing for in game chatting.

If you bow to me, I will DFA you. No questions asked. I see you lower your saber and do that crap and you will get a saber through your head.

When I join a server, I come to kill, and if you're within saber reach, then you are a target.


I can agree to that statement, It's a game get inthere and go for gold, instead of crouching infront of the other person expecting them to do the same.

Cal-Gon Gin
11-28-2003, 06:13 AM
Just got done playing TDM on Chop Shop Amidala. Heaping good fun--well done!

(has it really been two hours??? and not one single comment about being lame!)

I got a screenshot of an ENTIRE clan standing around chatting on a server. Chatting about how lame I was when I force pulled someone into a Vjun void. The loudest was, ironically, the biggest violator of his own rules--grip push into voids with his sabre down. Hows that for honor!

Feh, I thanked those who WOULD fight and left. All you can do.

Prisoner 655321
11-28-2003, 06:48 AM
So, gripping someone and then pushing them into the void, with saber off (the one doing the gripping), constitutes a huge breach of honor? That's what I thought. Because this has been done to me, I now agree with Dracofyre. If you are in an FFA server, and killing is going on, you might as well keep your saber up. I have no mercy on fools who stop mid-fight and saber down to go get armor and health, or think that keeping their saber off will get them one free hit with the blue lunge. D*mn that.
:uzi1:

Astrotoy7
11-28-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
(*cute witto sad Jawa voice*)


Wrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrwwwwwwwwwww!!! http://www.lucasforums.com/images/smilies/frown.gifhttp://www.lucasforums.com/images/smilies/jawa.gif

good effort at trying to lighten up this thread K

Too much testosterone in here though.....

**goes off to blast his pecs and quads, then play JA MP** :p

MTFBWYA

Darth Kaan
11-28-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
George Carlin is a stand-up comedien, famed for his sarcasm and grouchiness.

Yeah but man was he funny. :-)

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-28-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
good effort at trying to lighten up this thread K

Too much testosterone in here though.....

**goes off to blast his pecs and quads, then play JA MP** :p

MTFBWYA

Um, excuse me?

**goes off to shave her legs again**

:amidala:

Astrotoy7
11-28-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Um, excuse me?

**goes off to shave her legs again**

:amidala:

yes, testosterone makes the hair on your legs grow.

I'm sorry Amidala, I really didnt think you were a lady, I just thought you were perhaps an effeminate bloke or a big fan of Natalie Portman's character..... eg. in days of old my handle name was JadesDestiny...after Mara jade, my fave character in the SW universe.

Really, how do you put up with these *boys* You must have the patience of a saint, and the tolerance of a martyr.....

MTFBWYA

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-28-2003, 01:27 PM
You'd be suprised. Two of my JK2 subadmins also are female (I admit, maybe a little affirmative action there to make a point, but both are better-than-average players) and there are several female regulars on my servers (hiya jen, Sinna, and Laney :) ).

There are going to be more females in this game simply because it's Star Wars (at least that's what attracted me to it). Except for No One Lives Forever (have 1 and 2, but have no time to play), I have no interest in other action games.

Astrotoy7
11-28-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
You'd be suprised. Two of my JK2 subadmins also are female.

.......I have no interest in other action games.

Yes, I am surprised , but that is just damn cool.....

Me neither, re 'action games', apart from elite force 1/2 occasionally(SP) I prefer sports games on consoles with friends(much more social), or RPGs... I am a Final Fantasy devotee.... dont mind Neverwinter, cant wait for KOTORs local release...

wow, Amidala, we have temporarily diffused the caged heat that was the 'rant' thread.....

:cool:


MTFWBYA

Luc Solar
11-28-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
wow amidala you just ****ing owned him...

I'm starting to get impatient. :( Could someone please tell me who gets to marry amidala? I mean, many of us have proposed during the last months, but...? I haven't got any answer yet, what about you guys? Rad? Is amidala already taken? What's going on? :confused:

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-28-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
I'm starting to get impatient. :( Could someone please tell me who gets to marry amidala? I mean, many of us have proposed during the last months, but...? I haven't got any answer yet, what about you guys? Rad? Is amidala already taken? What's going on? :confused:

OK, here is what I look like the next morning with no makeup and after all that alcohol you drank has worn off. Are those offers still open boys? *bats eyelashes*

Lathain Valtiel
11-28-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
I'm starting to get impatient. :( Could someone please tell me who gets to marry amidala? I mean, many of us have proposed during the last months, but...? I haven't got any answer yet, what about you guys? Rad? Is amidala already taken? What's going on? :confused:

My question exactly. I'm surprised she hasn't gotten marriage proposals by PM en masse.

Astrotoy7
11-29-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
I'm starting to get impatient. :( Could someone please tell me who gets to marry amidala? I mean, many of us have proposed during the last months, but...? I haven't got any answer yet, what about you guys? Rad? Is amidala already taken? What's going on? :confused:

I'd prefer to marry Amidala's sister, check AOTC deleted scenes....

As for Chop Shop's Amidala, stop botherin her with the teen romance talk will ya, and let her get back to Chop Shopping :cool:

Amidala, do you feel like you are in the cyber equivalent of a construction yard or boyz locker room....? :p

Saw your link to Troops ..... Troops was a great fanfilm, my fave was Knightquest though, then Pink 5(hilarious!!) :D

MTFBWYA

Master William
11-29-2003, 02:34 PM
Online women turn you on. How sad. For all I know, Amidala from Chop Shop could be a man. I have honestly never seen a female know so much about a game, so it's gotta be a man.

To you other guys - you're the kind of guys who follow people with a Jan Ors model in JO, right? ;)

Please Amidala, no offense. I just find it very patethic and sad when people see a female online, and they have to keep acting like horny asses who never seen a female in their life.

Poor girls that play SWG, they probably get followed without noticing. Altough, it does bring positive points...

//stratosph34r
11-29-2003, 04:17 PM
^dude is right.

there is nothing sadder than a geek that is pussywhipped ONLINE, that's just taking it to a whole new sad level.

hehe MOST girl gamers are ugly as butt if they aren't pretending to be girls in the first place...
either that or they are messed up in the head a little and want attention from horny fanbois. you will have keep learning this sad lesson!

:jawa

Luc Solar
11-29-2003, 04:48 PM
Bah! :mad:

...you're just jealous 'cuz U know she'll pik me. :cool:

If u pick me Amidala I swear I'll have my dad drive us to teh Star Warz III behind teh scenes-thingy!! :cool: :cool: :cool:

Rad Blackrose
11-29-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Master William
Online women turn you on. How sad. For all I know, Amidala from Chop Shop could be a man. I have honestly never seen a female know so much about a game, so it's gotta be a man.

To you other guys - you're the kind of guys who follow people with a Jan Ors model in JO, right? ;)

Please Amidala, no offense. I just find it very patethic and sad when people see a female online, and they have to keep acting like horny asses who never seen a female in their life.

Poor girls that play SWG, they probably get followed without noticing. Altough, it does bring positive points...

Sorry, the flamethrower is out of juice. Been too busy using it on Tazoon.com posters, otherwise I would have lit up a certain troll hanging in the X-Mod post by now.

You can stop the flamebaiting right now.

FLaM-DraG
11-29-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Master William
Online women turn you on. How sad. For all I know, Amidala from Chop Shop could be a man. I have honestly never seen a female know so much about a game, so it's gotta be a man.

To you other guys - you're the kind of guys who follow people with a Jan Ors model in JO, right? ;)

Please Amidala, no offense. I just find it very patethic and sad when people see a female online, and they have to keep acting like horny asses who never seen a female in their life.

Poor girls that play SWG, they probably get followed without noticing. Altough, it does bring positive points...

That's so true. That's the way it has been and always will be... But the funny thing is to pretend your a girl on a game and see how much better your score is! :D Though, don't let it go too far, that's just gross.

But anyway, I've always ranted about that stuff whenever a girl came into the game, especially JK2 or JK3.. I never saw that kind of **** in my life, but a girl comes in and suddenly the "DIE YOU NEWB!" and "DUEL ME PUSSY!" turns into cheap flirting and flaunting with the 'girl' in the game. Although I can't say it's a nice relief to turn off the Hate-meter for a little while, but it's just sad that it takes a girl in the game to do that.

:(

P.S.
Girls online can't do anything for you, but girls in person can do lots for you! :p

Cal-Gon Gin
11-29-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by FLaM-DraG
But anyway, I've always ranted about that stuff whenever a girl came into the game, especially JK2 or JK3.. I never saw that kind of **** in my life, but a girl comes in and suddenly the "DIE YOU NEWB!" and "DUEL ME PUSSY!" turns into cheap flirting and flaunting with the 'girl' in the game. Although I can't say it's a nice relief to turn off the Hate-meter for a little while, but it's just sad that it takes a girl in the game to do that.


I disagree. I have never received more nasty comments hurled my way in 6 years of online gaming than when I play with a female name and character in JA.

Not to say there isn't the flirting too, which makes my day :amidala:

Luc Solar
11-29-2003, 07:22 PM
Ok. The first one to post a link to the "CS - Attention Whore" -clip gets a hug from Amidala! :D

TK-8252
11-29-2003, 07:49 PM
Okay... This thread is SERIOUSLY off-topic. I feel like I'm at my clan [LC] forums, and I thought that here I could escape from the weirdness.

/me trys to get us on-topic

Master William
11-29-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Sorry, the flamethrower is out of juice. Been too busy using it on Tazoon.com posters, otherwise I would have lit up a certain troll hanging in the X-Mod post by now.

You can stop the flamebaiting right now.

No, you're the opportunity flamer, I wasn't aiming for a flame. I am telling you the truth, and revealing my thoughts. You don't need to flame every persons post, and my post wasn't intended to be a flamebait (which it turned out to become anyway) so this is a note to all you other people who were gonna flame me.

Rumor
11-29-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
OK, here is what I look like the next morning with no makeup and after all that alcohol you drank has worn off. Are those offers still open boys? *bats eyelashes*

^^

//stratosph34r
11-29-2003, 09:45 PM
Girls online can't do anything for you, but girls in person can do lots for you!

amen. if you want girls online just look up porn. no bull****.

People shouldn't reveal their gender while gaming
teh females that do just want attention. i mean, why does anyone really need to know otherwise? personally and that's just me i think attn whoring girls deserve 2 b harrased, same with anyone who goes out of their way to get special attn

not PC so sue me

Chuahtemoc
11-29-2003, 10:07 PM
people who get turned on by online women are lame, as far as i'm concerned.

anyway, let's return to the topic at hand. what was it again?:D

theguyincorner
11-29-2003, 10:17 PM
About online women: I doubt they all just do it to get attention as some of you have said. I don't think its sad or pathetic to see women online, infact that makes no sense... you say they must be ugly or pathetic or want attention to be on an online game. what does that say about you or everyone else who plays an online game? One of the members of my clan actualy met his wife in a gaming forum and they are one happy couple with two computers lol. and about online women not doing anything for you. if your just interested in using women then get some cash and visit your local brothal.

Anyway, back on topic... Like I said before when you join a server just ask what the rules are or watch to see what everyone else is doing before you start saying "no laming" or "hey this is ffa why is no one fighting!!!" There are people maintaining and often paying for the server you are playing on. they set the rules not you. you have the privlage to play there it's not your god given right. so just respect the other players and above all the people who run the servers.

If it's not your style of server move on and find another.

Chuahtemoc
11-29-2003, 10:29 PM
You're talking about ffa where people stand around to chat or duel like monkeys or just pretty much screw around. Ya, those suck. Wanna know why? because they can all get together on AIM or something and chat. most people (i wont count out the occasional oddity) play online mp videogames for fun, for the live fighting type of thing. then there are people who enjoy the social side of sitting and chatting and throwing feces at eachother online.

personally, i don't see the point, but the majority of online gamers probably fall into the first category. Now, i'm not bashing or flaming the second category, but honestly, there are so many other places you can sit and talk that it kind of irritates me to see people wasting server bandwidth and memory to sit and chat. that's my end of the stick, raw,... and cold... and sometimes beefy lol

KaiaSowapit
11-29-2003, 10:29 PM
A little self-indulgence (quoting myself from another post, on another forum, from a galaxy far far away)...
Originally posted by KaiaSowaPit
Some of us don't want, need or care for superfluous exercises in pomp and circumstance to demonstrate "respect" for one another.

Personally, I respect everyone equally until they go out of their way to prove themselves unworthy. Usually it's how they conduct themselves using the game's chat function (profanity and/or needlessly insulting or abusive comments). Sometimes it's simply the way they choose to identify themselves (as in "Hitler' or "KKK" - actual names people have used on my server I fully suspect with the intention of having racist/bigoted impact). It's never how they actually play the game.

I can't begrudge someone for attacking me while my "saber is down" or "chat window is up" - if I put myself in some kind of vulnerable position, it was a conscious and voluntary decision. I'm not so self-centered/egotistical to insist that everyone on the server has to curb their playing style just to cater to my personal choices.
I've also said the following before, but I think it bears repeating. This is my philosophy:

Anyone who purchased this game, I assume to be a fan of both Star Wars and combat-oriented action.

Anyone who joins an online server, I assume is there to play.

Anyone who whines, complains, or insults other people excessively, I assume to be a poor-sport and immature.

I didn't pay $49.95 for a 3D, Quake-driven MP bitch engine.

BTW, totally off-topic, but WTF is up with the Jawa model bans??? Was not this issue resolved already? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112253)

Last but not least...
Originally posted by Master William
I have honestly never seen a female know so much about a game, so it's gotta be a man.
That's arguably the most ignorant post I've seen you contribute Master William.

I don't know with any certainty Amidala's gender... but I'll say this much... it's rare to see threads from a male poster with as much attention to spelling/grammar/punctuation.

I'm constantly amazed some of you chuckleheads can even spell Star Wars right. ;)

Chuahtemoc
11-29-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by KaiaSowapit


Originally posted by Master William
I have honestly never seen a female know so much about a game, so it's gotta be a man.

That's arguably the most ignorant post I've seen you contribute Master William.

I don't know with any certainty Amidala's gender... but I'll say this much... it's rare to see threads from a male poster with as much attention to spelling/grammar/punctuation.

I'm constantly amazed some of you chuckleheads can even spell Star Wars right. ;)

I agree with Kaiasowpit... Master will, not only was that ignorant, but you're being incredibly sexist and stupid as hell by putting yourself into an imaginary world where there are no videogamejunkie women. there are plenty of girls that enjoy videogames, but no, they AREN't (or probably aren't, i guess) going to enjoy sitting and playing nba liver 2004 or Madden nfl 2004 with you. perhaps with someone else, but not you, will {jk lol} but seriously Women's interest in videogames are underated. the last sof2clan i was in had 12 people. SIX of them were girls. (A couple of the guys acted like girls, too, but, hey :p)

Rumor
11-29-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
amen. if you want girls online just look up porn. no bull****.

People shouldn't reveal their gender while gaming
teh females that do just want attention. i mean, why does anyone really need to know otherwise? personally and that's just me i think attn whoring girls deserve 2 b harrased, same with anyone who goes out of their way to get special attn

not PC so sue me

you are obviously new to online gaming or you are very stupid.

people use gender/nationality/personality, etc as frames of reference.

its all part of communication and the whole "clan mentality"

the more you get to know someone the better you perform as a team.


as for pussywhipped clans take a look at SiN. they had one girl pussywhip the entire leadership and it was hilarious.

she is 16 or so and she says that she cannot hear cusswords because she gets in trouble (lol what 16 year old gets in trouble for cusswords) so whenever someone said a cussword they were banned and kicked out of the clan lol.

she was a super mod o ntheir forums and would delete any thread with them.

it was funny as hell.

Master William
11-29-2003, 11:37 PM
Sorry if it came out wrong, but it's not everyday you see females knowing so much about a game? Just for what I know, females tend to go out alot, and they don't have time to learn this. I won't judge by sex, but it's a bit rare with female players, and even more rare with smart ones that know so much about a game. I'm quite convinced Amidala is a female, but I won't go PM her, sending her messages like ''Oh my sweet princess, will you marry me? My beautiful woman, come closer!'' or something.

As for the 'chuckleheads', you're a senior member in the club, Kaia ;) (joking)

Many guys do rename to 'Daisy' or 'Sexy Jenny' in games, and they do get attention, with their female models in game.
The guys protect them like their life, and will turn into slaves for that person.

About SiN, I know them very well, and they do tend to give in to the girls. A girl member there (probably the one you mentioned, Rumor) kept running around being followed by all SiN members. They agreed with her on all points in every conversation, and gave her permission to be admin, along with other things.

Gah, how stupid. All I have to say is: Nice with a female that is smart enough to play a game, instead of the ones with the name 'Jenny' who run around asking me if I like cheerleading (it did happen once ;)).

BTW, you should see SWG. Most female characters you see there are actually guys. They do it for the items, many retards like those that become slave to girls, tend to give the female characters alot of items, just to suck up to them.

It's not like they're gonna meet up, anyway?

eniaC
11-29-2003, 11:55 PM
It's obvious she is a female, men aren't that clever or smart.

*edit* I'm more into the Dominatrix type though, what happened to Akshara?j/k

Cal-Gon Gin
11-30-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Master William
Sorry if it came out wrong, but it's not everyday you see females knowing so much about a game? Just for what I know, females tend to go out alot, and they don't have time to learn this.

Nonesense. Almost all of the people who help users get their on-line games going on Gamespy Arcade are women (Love2Play, Angel, Cobby). The tone of this thread (and comments I see on servers) might explain why most keep their genders to themselves, which is a shame.

//stratosph34r
11-30-2003, 12:53 AM
it ain't no shame. It's bloody disruptive. just look at this thread. What was it about again? thety should keep it to themselves. if I knew that it caused this kind of commotion, let's say in a parallel universe where guys are the minority in gaming, i won't go around advertising that i have a cock and balls. it's just attn whoring, plain and simple.

frame of reference? yeah, frame of disruption more like. yeah, i know i'm adding more fuel to da fire but something needed to be said.

eniaC
11-30-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Chuahtemoc
people who get turned on by online women are lame, as far as i'm concerned.

anyway, let's return to the topic at hand. what was it again?:D

Yeah...thats the problem with todays society, too much emphasis on looks and the physical appearance.
I like my Women to have some brains unlike most of you neanderthals.

You people are so pathetic with your stereotypes of women it makes me sick.
I can almost garantee my wife would kick all your a**es, and I'm not talking about a game.

You should all be ashamed.
_________________________________
"hehe MOST girl gamers are ugly as butt if they aren't pretending to be girls in the first place...
either that or they are messed up in the head a little and want attention from horny fanbois. you will have keep learning this sad lesson!" - //stratosph34r

And most men are online all the time because they can't get any women, due to lack of brains and looks.
__________________________________

but I suppose all you idiotic f*ckheads want your women barefoot and pregnant, go f*ck yourself with your own hand, cause thats all your gettin tonite.


I will stand by this flame even if it gets me banned.


Cheers to all the women who put up with this crap, I feel bad for them. You have my support all the way no matter what you look like.

eniaC

//stratosph34r
11-30-2003, 01:02 AM
but I suppose all you idiotic f*ckheads want your women barefoot and pregnant, go f*ck yourself with your own hand, cause thats all your gettin tonite.

No, i just don't want them pussywhipping the gaming scene. yeah, horny fanbois are idiots but the ladies aren't helping by turning a spotlight on themselves.

and yeah, most gaming chicks i've seen have been ugly. you say all the guys are too, but we ain't going' around flashing our ****ing pictures!

eniaC
11-30-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
No, i just don't want them pussywhipping the gaming scene.

Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about and have never even played on the Chop Shop servers, GG dumbf*ck.

//stratosph34r
11-30-2003, 01:14 AM
why should i give a **** about a chop sop suey or whatever the **** you are talking about. please enlighten me.

Cal-Gon Gin
11-30-2003, 01:28 AM
Oh I get it. You want the online gaming scene to be a segregated, boys-only sort of thing. I bet you'd also like it if business were boys-only too. Where do you draw the line anyway?

You, sir, are sexist and misogynist. Grow up.

(Sorry for continuing this thread's hijack.):evanpiel:

g//plaZma
11-30-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Cal-Gon Gin
Oh I get it. You want the online gaming scene to be a segregated, boys-only sort of thing. I bet you'd also like it if business were boys-only too. Where do you draw the line anyway?

You, sir, are sexist and misogynist. Grow up.

(Sorry for continuing this thread's hijack.):evanpiel:

Next thing you know, he'll want it to be segregated based on religion, race and nationality.

//stratosph34r
11-30-2003, 01:39 AM
anyways, segregation um hell no. that goes too far.

don't ask don't tell, like the US military, would be good. then we can go back to kicking ass.

:jawa

fk | screed
11-30-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
I have actually read that the author of Jedi Academy mod is taking out almost all of the admin powers, so hopefully there won't be much, if any admin abuse. All he's leaving are the core powers: /amsleep, /amkick, /amkickban, /amsilence, /amrename. Now the abusive admins cant use /ampunish, /amslap, /ambunny, /amempower to humiliate players. :)

I always found it funny as hell to beat the crap out of a player that is /amempowered than the whole server laughs at him than he kicks us all, happened to me yesterday.........

Master William
11-30-2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Cal-Gon Gin
Oh I get it. You want the online gaming scene to be a segregated, boys-only sort of thing. I bet you'd also like it if business were boys-only too. Where do you draw the line anyway?

You, sir, are sexist and misogynist. Grow up.

(Sorry for continuing this thread's hijack.):evanpiel:

If you were referring to me, NO. Don't put words in my mouth, thank you.

EDIT: This discussion should end here, I started it (and all the other guys with their PM proposals) and it turned out to become a sort of flamefest... Just quote what you wanna quote, and after that, stop discussing.

Neverhoodian
11-30-2003, 02:51 AM
I agree with Master William on this one. Unless things are put back on topic, this thread should be closed.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-30-2003, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by Master William
I have honestly never seen a female know so much about a game, so it's gotta be a man.


Sorry, I was busy today, or I would have responded sooner. I will accept your complement about knowing so much about the game and not whine about the sexism because I hate whiners and whining.

I know it's unusual for females to be into gaming, but it's not that unusual. And like I said before, JK2 was my first online game, and honestly, I knew nothing about servers when I started in March. But when something catches my interest, I get obsessed with it and want to learn everything I can about it. I was the same way about birds, and computers, and bicycles, and other interests of mine. When I started running a server, I read a lot of stuff online and Jedi Runner taught me a lot. Of course, the best teacher was running my servers and having to figure out how to make them do what I wanted them to do. I made lots of mistakes at first, and I'm still learning things all the time.

Just so you know I'm not a freak, ever hear of Stevie Case?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevie_Case_(Killcreek)
http://formen.ign.com/news/29352.html

She beat John Romero at his own game:amidala:

Rumor
11-30-2003, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Master William
Sorry if it came out wrong, but it's not everyday you see females knowing so much about a game? Just for what I know, females tend to go out alot, and they don't have time to learn this. I won't judge by sex, but it's a bit rare with female players, and even more rare with smart ones that know so much about a game. I'm quite convinced Amidala is a female, but I won't go PM her, sending her messages like ''Oh my sweet princess, will you marry me? My beautiful woman, come closer!'' or something.

As for the 'chuckleheads', you're a senior member in the club, Kaia ;) (joking)

Many guys do rename to 'Daisy' or 'Sexy Jenny' in games, and they do get attention, with their female models in game.
The guys protect them like their life, and will turn into slaves for that person.

About SiN, I know them very well, and they do tend to give in to the girls. A girl member there (probably the one you mentioned, Rumor) kept running around being followed by all SiN members. They agreed with her on all points in every conversation, and gave her permission to be admin, along with other things.

Gah, how stupid. All I have to say is: Nice with a female that is smart enough to play a game, instead of the ones with the name 'Jenny' who run around asking me if I like cheerleading (it did happen once ;)).

BTW, you should see SWG. Most female characters you see there are actually guys. They do it for the items, many retards like those that become slave to girls, tend to give the female characters alot of items, just to suck up to them.

It's not like they're gonna meet up, anyway?

which one

Rumor
11-30-2003, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
No, i just don't want them pussywhipping the gaming scene. yeah, horny fanbois are idiots but the ladies aren't helping by turning a spotlight on themselves.

and yeah, most gaming chicks i've seen have been ugly. you say all the guys are too, but we ain't going' around flashing our ****ing pictures!

if stevie chase heard you she would kick your ass from here to uhm...well we'll not go there.


please go join the other dendrophiliacs in the hall.

g//plaZma
11-30-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Sorry, I was busy today, or I would have responded sooner. I will accept your complement about knowing so much about the game and not whine about the sexism because I hate whiners and whining.

I know it's unusual for females to be into gaming, but it's not that unusual. And like I said before, JK2 was my first online game, and honestly, I knew nothing about servers when I started in March. But when something catches my interest, I get obsessed with it and want to learn everything I can about it. I was the same way about birds, and computers, and bicycles, and other interests of mine. When I started running a server, I read a lot of stuff online and Jedi Runner taught me a lot. Of course, the best teacher was running my servers and having to figure out how to make them do what I wanted them to do. I've made lots of mistakes at first, and I'm still learning things all the time.

Just so you know I'm not a freak, ever hear of Stevie Case?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevie_Case_(Killcreek)
http://formen.ign.com/news/29352.html

She beat John Romero at his own game:amidala:

Yup. Stevie Case plays Quake, right?

eniaC
11-30-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
why should i give a **** about a chop sop suey or whatever the **** you are talking about. please enlighten me.

enlightened yet?
Did ya even read the thread from the beginning?

KaiaSowapit
11-30-2003, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Just so you know I'm not a freak, ever hear of Stevie Case?

She beat John Romero at his own game:amidala:
oh yeah... but... gaming chicks are ugly...

Oh wait...

http://www.gamespy.com/legacy/interviews/womengaming5/killcreek.jpg

What's that?! She's done a pictorial for Playboy?!!! She's attractive, smart AND into gaming???!

Crap, there goes that theory! ;)

Welcome to the 21st century, pinheads.

//stratosph34r
11-30-2003, 04:40 AM
most of 'em are. that's what i originally said and i'm sticking to that. one moderately attractive chick with fake boobs that beat romero just because he wanted pussy and took a dive doesn't matter much. There goes your theory about my theory, whipping boy.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Sorry, I was busy today, or I would have responded sooner. I will accept your complement about knowing so much about the game and not whine about the sexism because I hate whiners and whining.

I know it's unusual for females to be into gaming, but it's not that unusual. And like I said before, JK2 was my first online game, and honestly, I knew nothing about servers when I started in March. But when something catches my interest, I get obsessed with it and want to learn everything I can about it. I was the same way about birds, and computers, and bicycles, and other interests of mine. When I started running a server, I read a lot of stuff online and Jedi Runner taught me a lot. Of course, the best teacher was running my servers and having to figure out how to make them do what I wanted them to do. I've made lots of mistakes at first, and I'm still learning things all the time.

Just so you know I'm not a freak, ever hear of Stevie Case?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevie_Case_(Killcreek)
http://formen.ign.com/news/29352.html

She beat John Romero at his own game

Yap yap yap. See what stupid fanbois encourage? Only a girl would feel comfortable yapping about herself like someone is supposed to give a ****. Really? WHaT iZ UR FAv0rite ColouR while you are at it? TELL ME MORE

Stupid ass mother****ing fanbois, encouraging this ****.

//stratosph34r
11-30-2003, 04:42 AM
Okay you caught me, I am jealous of the attention they get just because of their sex in gaming. :o

Uttini!
:jawa

eniaC
11-30-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
Uttini!
:jawa

E Chu Ta:c3po:

Khier
11-30-2003, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
Yap yap yap. See what stupid fanbois encourage? Only a girl would feel comfortable yapping about herself like someone is supposed to give a ****. Really? WHaT iZ UR FAv0rite ColouR while you are at it? TELL ME MORE

Stupid ass mother****ing fanbois, encouraging this ****.

I've seen a lot of guys that seem to feel comfortable yapping about themselves in servers. In fact, they all seem to be attracted to those same ****ing servers that clutter up the browser as a 3d interactive chat line.

Amidala from Chop Shop
11-30-2003, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
Yap yap yap. See what stupid fanbois encourage? Only a girl would feel comfortable yapping about herself like someone is supposed to give a ****. Really? WHaT iZ UR FAv0rite ColouR while you are at it? TELL ME MORE

Whew, thank goodness I edited that post, it was going to be longer :amidala:

My favorite color? Hmmm, let me see.....um, pink?, no wait......ummm.....mauve? no that's not it......hmmmm....well, teal is pretty......

Rumor
11-30-2003, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
most of 'em are. that's what i originally said and i'm sticking to that. one moderately attractive chick with fake boobs that beat romero just because he wanted pussy and took a dive doesn't matter much. There goes your theory about my theory, whipping boy.



Yap yap yap. See what stupid fanbois encourage? Only a girl would feel comfortable yapping about herself like someone is supposed to give a ****. Really? WHaT iZ UR FAv0rite ColouR while you are at it? TELL ME MORE

Stupid ass mother****ing fanbois, encouraging this ****.


blah blah blah stupid mother****er there are tons and tons and tons of MEN and BOYS out there who are doing interviews because of their gaming.

EVER HEAR OF JOHNATHAN WENDEL OR THRESH?

HOW ABOUT SK.SWE IN CS?

theguyincorner
11-30-2003, 06:48 AM
Wow, some people are rediculous. Gender is part of who you are no one should have to hide it because there are rabid hormone machines stalking around these games (well maybe they should for there own sake lol), but making these broad sweeping generalazations like "All girls just say they are girls to get attention" or "online girls are ugly!" is just stupid. Apparently you obtained pictures of the majority of girls that play online games which i find amazing! plus if you really just care about looks entirely you are going to end up with a stupid girl who falls for you shallow personality and ends up cheating on you in the end... but hey she was hot!!

What about people saying that girls just say they are women to get attention? I've seen these a lot of times before and it's true guys do suck up to them more. I got into a bit of a scrap with a girl on chop shop (I'm sure you read this Ami) and I ended up with about 5 other guys who werent even there when the argument started 2 maps ago now all dogging me. -oh and for future refrence don't get into fights with girls in a game cuz everyone will gang up on you lol- BUUUUUT not ALL girls are like that infact im sure the majority aren't. Probobly most girls play with non-gender defining names just to avoid the kind of people that the internet brings out (there's a girl in my clan who used to play under a male name for the longest time).

so in concluuusion if you are male - please respect the girls who play, by not being sexist and not humping their leg like a pre-neuterd puppy. and if you are female - don't use your gender to get ahead in anything, using people is terrible.

EDIT: Ohh by the way just wanted to say I used to know sk.swe in counter strike he would come into the server I always played on and get kicked for "cheating" (yes there are abusive, stupid admins in CS too).

KaiaSowapit
11-30-2003, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by //stratosph34r
hehe MOST girl gamers are ugly as butt...
I'm sure if your girlfriend played video games, she'd be the one exception, right? Oh what's that? Don't have a girlfriend?

Color me surprised.

Some of us don't make presumptions (or frankly give a hoot) about the gender of our online opponents. If you or the crowd you hang out with has this sort of childish pre-occupation, that's YOUR cross to bear.

FYI, tossing around expressions like "pussywhipped" or "stupid ass mother****ing fanbois" not only is inappropriate to these forums, but also solidifies the notion that you're nothing more than an immature cretin, trying desperately to sound "tough." Rather than insulting anyone here, you're just giving us an opportunity to laugh at your expense.

Thanks for the chuckle. :D

TK-8252
11-30-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by theguyincorner
Anyway, back on topic... Like I said before when you join a server just ask what the rules are or watch to see what everyone else is doing before you start saying "no laming" or "hey this is ffa why is no one fighting!!!" There are people maintaining and often paying for the server you are playing on. they set the rules not you. you have the privlage to play there it's not your god given right. so just respect the other players and above all the people who run the servers.

If it's not your style of server move on and find another. Amen. If everyone played this way there would be no confusion, but I guess that simply asking what the rules are when you join is just to difficult a task for some people.

Guys, if you continue this disturbing flame war about women in video games this thread will be closed, and we were having a good discussion before this woman thing got in somehow...

Astrotoy7
11-30-2003, 08:03 AM
Oh Dear :rolleyes:

I'm sorry Amidala, I should've stayed on topic... !!! It was one of my posts that bought up this whole gender thing ......

Posted by Astrotoy7......

I'm sorry Amidala, I really didnt think you were a lady, I just thought you were perhaps an effeminate bloke or a big fan of Natalie Portman's character..... eg. in days of old my handle name was JadesDestiny...after Mara jade, my fave character in the SW universe.

Really, how do you put up with these *boys* You must have the patience of a saint, and the tolerance of a martyr.....

Can someone start moaning about bowing or laming again.... if not, I can see this thread being closed...

some of you guys really need to grow up... quit with the sexist remarks.....

MTFBWYA

eniaC
11-30-2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by theguyincorner
and if you are female - don't use your gender to get ahead in anything, using people is terrible.



Why not, the male speices has being doing it for how long now? ;)
you are right though, using people sucks, and two wrongs don't make a right, pardon the cliche.


Atrotoy7,
Don't blame yourself for the stupidity of somepeople, we all know it was in good fun until the cavemen strolled in.


eniaC

Rumor
11-30-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by theguyincorner

EDIT: Ohh by the way just wanted to say I used to know sk.swe in counter strike he would come into the server I always played on and get kicked for "cheating" (yes there are abusive, stupid admins in CS too).

SK.swe is a clan

shroet kommando - sweden

Astrotoy7
11-30-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by eniaC


Astrotoy7,
Don't blame yourself for the stupidity of somepeople, we all know it was in good fun until the cavemen strolled in......

eniaC

Stupidity is the key word eniaC. Some of the things said by others above are just plain sad....

I think this thread has done its dash....

MTFBWYA

Master William
11-30-2003, 11:40 AM
Kaia, I don't know who the heck that girl is, so you better explain yourself. No offense intended Amidala, it just annoys me when guys must turn into slaves for online girls (happens not only in games, happens in every chat).

/me tries to end the discussion ;)

KaiaSowapit
11-30-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Master William
Kaia, I don't know who the heck that girl is, so you better explain yourself.
:rolleyes:
If you're referring to this:
http://www.gamespy.com/legacy/interviews/womengaming5/killcreek.jpg (http://www.gamespy.com/legacy/interviews/womengaming5_a.shtm)
it's Stevie Case - otherwise known as "Killcreek" - and if you had bothered to go to either of the sites Amidala referenced for you Master William, you'd know that already.

BTW, goading people to respond and then following up with your own opinion on the subject is not an effective method to ending a discussion.

Master William
11-30-2003, 03:06 PM
A very interesting person, Killercreek is. Still, I will always hate it how many girls online will form ''slaves'' to them. I am out of this topic, not caring what anyone is gonna post about me anymore.

Adios.

Luc Solar
11-30-2003, 05:10 PM
LOL! What has happened to this thread??! :eek:

About this whole "slave" thing -> only little teenage boys could possibly do something that stupid.
No need to worry about that, 'cause if they're not being the "slave" of some old hairy guy using the Jan Ors skin, then they'll be doing something else that's equally retarded.

And if someone didn't understand that the previous proposals etc. were just JOKES then I really have to go >> :disaprove

(psst, amidala, did you get the flowers I sent? :) )

TK-8252
11-30-2003, 07:38 PM
/me unsubscribes to this thread

eniaC
11-30-2003, 10:20 PM
I'll be their slave then:naughty:

:vamp1:

Cal-Gon Gin
12-01-2003, 12:43 AM
She's no Killcreek (and I'm no Hugh Grant), but you can't call Kornelia unattractive OR unskilled. She's been owning me since QW...

http://www.caligirl.net/cg/album/pictures/g_kornelia-99.jpg

By the way, the whole honor thing has been much less of a problem since I started playing on th CHop SHop!

Heya Red-5, gg's!

Brit N'y

Astrotoy7
12-01-2003, 09:50 AM
Can someone start a "FEMALE GAMERS ROCK!" thread.....

Maybe you should do it MASTER WILLIAM, to atone for your sins : D

MTFBWYA