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Frozted_MM's
11-30-2003, 06:54 AM
I'm kinda on the line of this I like it in some ways realism, eye candy, seeing jedi use there abilities in the game and on the other side of it like will it be to overpowering and give jedi to much power.

In swgb the only thing jedi could do was convert even mechanical units and air which should be removed. Plus what kinds of power would be in there all the force ones giving a jedi like 7 powers or a limited amount maybe you choose what he knows.....

Should jedi powers be controlled by you or can he use them as a basic attack on his own while coming under attack....

Stealth should be brought down to a 30 second window instead of stealth all the time except it can't work on mechanical units giving Confed and TF a nice little jedi bonus.

Would force push,pull kill units or just knock them down so the jedi can come in to finish the job with his saber.

Would it be based on a ranking system the more times you use the jedi the more experience he gets in battle the better he becomes like in CnC promos.

Tell me what you think :)

Admiral Vostok
11-30-2003, 07:42 AM
We discussed this at length before, but since it was in the Sniper thread that we discussed it this seems like a better place to do so.

I'm all for expansion of force powers, especially the related eye candy. However I think they need to be carefully balanced in terms of power: I don't want the gameplay turning into that of Warcraft 3 where it was a case of who can click their powers the fastest. Also overpowering is bad in terms of realism: in the Battle of Geonosis, you couldn't see Jedi performing powers all over the place, with flashes here and bodies flying over there. Jedi performed powers, sure, but in a large scale conflict the eye candy shouldn't be so overwhelming it really stands out.

Having said I don't want it to turn into WC3, I do like their system of setting special abilities to be auto-cast, and I think a similar system would be good for Force powers. You can either click as you need, or set to auto-cast so the Jedi performs it when necessary, similar to special attacks in AoM.

I like the limited stealth idea - and when it comes to stealth there should be some kind of eye candy, like transparent Jedi, unlike what was in SWGB1 - though making droids immune poses balance issues. I suppose Jedi could be better vs droids, since they don't have the issues about taking lives, but I still don't see how it could adequately be balanced. Then again if your fighting the Trade Fed or Confederacy perhaps you could chose not to research stealth, since it has no effect...?

I think Force Puch/Pull should knock units down, enabling the Jedi to run up and slash them. Killing would be too boring. Plus it makes for good eye candy.

I think an experience system would be a good way to do things, and we discussed things like Jedi in the presence of Jedi Masters gain experience faster because they are learning. I don't think promotions should necessarily be automatic, though, because Padawans, Knights and Masters all serve different purposes and you don't necessarily want to get rid of Padawans. Once they accumulate enough experience perhaps a little icon is shown over their head, meaning they are ready to be promoted. You sort of act like the Jedi Council, approving their promotion when the time is right.

lukeiamyourdad
11-30-2003, 04:17 PM
Of course there should be a limited amount of Force power a jedi can do. Give them a force meter of something like that.

It all comes down to should we click or should it be automatic. There's actually a problem with this. Everyone wants more then one force power, but having to click to use them in a middle of a battle might add some unwanted micro and turn it in WC3.

Also, no one wants the force powers to be as destructive as any of the WC3 spells so basically, having to click to use them is pretty much useless since the benefits doesn't help that much and the additionnal micro, again, might be your downfall.

I think each Jedi/Sith/Dark Jedi unit should have a different skill.
Like a Jedi Padawan should have push while a Sith Apprentice/Dark Jedi Apprentice should have pull.
Same thing with Jedi Knight/Sith Knight/Dark Jedi Knight. The exception would be the Masters which could have more then one power(perhaps 2 + stealth which makes a total of 3).

Admiral Vostok
11-30-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Everyone wants more then one force power, but having to click to use them in a middle of a battle might add some unwanted micro and turn it in WC3.

Hmm, that is quite true, I hadn't thought of it that way. I may have to review my Force power plan with this in mind...

Darth Windu
12-01-2003, 04:18 AM
Well, here is my take on Jedi Force powers.
First of all, i want the game to be of a fairly large scale, and that means big armies clashing. This then, presents the need for Force powers to be automatic, or there can be a system for force power use like in 'Star Trek Armada 2' for special weapon use. It goes as such-
1. Red alert - unit will use all special energy
2. Yellow alert - unit will use up to 50% of special energy
3. Green alert - unit will not use special energy

Also, in terms of force powers, the only ones i think are really necessary are-
1. Force speed
2. Force push
3. Force defend? (deflecting blaster fire)

Admiral Vostok
12-01-2003, 06:01 AM
Hmm, that alert system isn't bad, though perhaps we could tie it into the Stance system like I want to do with movement. So Jedi on Aggressive Stance use all their Force Power, Jedi on Defensive use 50%, Jedi on Stand Ground use all and Jedi on No Stance use none. Or maybe other combinations...

As for Force powers, what about Lightning for Sith? In big scale battles I agree those are all you'd use. Perhaps then other powers could be used, but not automated, so you could sneak Jedi Masters in behind enemy lines. Battle Powers (Push, Choke, Lightning, Defend) might be automated, whilst Support Powers (Convert, Mind Trick, Heal) would be activatable. I think this could work.

Darth Windu
12-02-2003, 02:38 AM
Well, okay all you'd have to do is give Force Push to Jedi, and Force Lightning to Sith as their ranged attack.

Looks like we're getting some good ideas here, although i personally detest the use of 'convert' (and have in every game that has used it). To me, especially in SWGB, the thought of a Jedi 'converting' a droid seemed more than a little stupid...

lukeiamyourdad
12-02-2003, 08:34 PM
Push for Jedi and Lightning for Sith? Balance problems!!!

Converting should be removed(although converting did save my ass more then once). It's totally unrealistic.

Sithmaster_821
12-03-2003, 01:06 AM
Hmm....My only suggestion is that if you feel that force powers are necessary (i don't) then it would be best if the micro-intensive method of Blizzard games should be avoided, mainly because it is designed for smal-scale games, which SWGB2 would not be classified as.

Darth Windu
12-03-2003, 05:46 AM
luke - force push and force lightning would have the same effect, so no balance issues there. Remember that Obi Wan killed 3 security droids, and Qui Gon killed two security droids with force push alone.

Frozted_MM's
12-03-2003, 10:51 AM
*Draws a line between game play and realism for the 500th time*

In realism a Jedi could take out about 20 Tf droids if he plays it out right. But what you guys want is total realism which cannot be given 100%. Force powers should be limited (alot) or removed. I really wouldn't mind just sabers in battle thats what I'm going by since I haven't heard 1 good idea that could work if they had force powers.

Admiral Vostok
12-04-2003, 01:51 AM
That would be too boring, Frozted. It is a game, games are supposed to be fun. Using Force powers is fun. It's as simple as that. If balanced and not over-emphasised like WC3 I don't see a problem.

lukeiamyourdad
12-04-2003, 01:56 AM
Hey if AoM can have "abilities", force powers should be there too.

Sithmaster_821
12-05-2003, 01:33 AM
I'd go along with force powers a la AoM's MUs. But aside from that, I'd agree with Frosted.

Admiral Vostok
12-05-2003, 02:08 AM
What do people think of my Force power design? I don't mean to promote my design on two different threads, but it is relevant. I totally agree that Force powers should operate much like the special abilities in AoM, so how do you think my design compares to this? What should I change, if anything? Keep in mind the Master's powers require more micro because they are quite rare, but if people think this would disrupt the game too much they could be changed.

The link is here (http://vostok.150m.com/UnitClasses.html#JediSith).

lukeiamyourdad
12-06-2003, 12:03 AM
Hmmm...it's ok except for the Sith master's turning ability. I thought we wanted to get rid of converting other units. Besides, doesn't it kinda overpowers the sith over the Jedi?

Darth Windu
12-06-2003, 04:40 AM
Personally, i think it's too complicated. The way i see it, and the way it is in my template, is this-

- Jedi Padawan/Sith Apprentice automatically upgrade into Knights when they have enough experience
- Jedi Master is a Republic unique unit (to represent the order)
- Force powers should be-
1. Force defend - blocks and reflects some blaster fire (both)
2. Force Heal - all injured units can be healed slowly (Jedi)
3. Force Absorb - life taken from enemy units and added to Sith unit (Sith)
4. Force Push/Lightning - range attack used occasionally, can instantly kill some infantry units (Jedi - Push, Sith - Lightning)

Admiral Vostok
12-07-2003, 02:23 AM
Windu - how would these work? Activatable or auto-cast?

Luke's Dad - I shall try to think up something better than convert. What's another Sith power I could use?

I'd like to add here that while most are opposed to converting because of the issues that arise with droids that in some parts of EU there are Jedis that can control droids... yet more evidence for the un-Star-Warsy-ness of EU.

lukeiamyourdad
12-07-2003, 02:32 AM
Perhaps choke would be better although lightning and choke are pretty similar...

I'll think about it.

Admiral Vostok
12-07-2003, 02:51 AM
I have Choke already as the Sith Knight's equivalent to Jedi Knight's Push.

lukeiamyourdad
12-07-2003, 02:58 AM
I see...

Maybe you could keep the Sith master with one force power only...

Darth Windu
12-07-2003, 03:24 AM
Vostok - well it depends on the template that the powers would be in. For a smaller scale template like yours, i would like a mix of controlable and auto powers, whereas for my template, which favours large, flowing battles, i would want all Jedi/Sith powers to be auto.

Frozted_MM's
12-07-2003, 05:14 AM
Force powers may be fun but will they work.

Maybe it could work like WC3 hero thing but in a smaller scale.

Jedi Level 1- Jedi Learner
Jedi Level 2- Jedi Padawan
Jedi Level 3- Jedi Defender
Jedi Level 4- Jedi Knight
Jedi Level 5- Jedi Guardian
Jedi Level 6- Jedi Peace Keeper
Jedi Level 7- Jedi Instructor
Jedi Level 8- Jedi Leader
Jedi Level 9- Jedi Master
Jedi Level 10- Uber Jedi

Dark Jedi Level 1- Dark Jedi Beginner
Dark Jedi Level 2- Dark Jedi Apprentice
Dark Jedi Level 3- Dark Jedi Follower
Dark Jedi Level 4- Dark Jedi Knight
Dark Jedi Level 5- Dark Jedi Corruptor
Dark Jedi Level 6- Dark Jedi Manipulator
Dark Jedi Level 7- Dark Jedi Sorcerer
Dark Jedi Level 8- Sith Apprentice
Dark Jedi Level 9- Sith Knight
Dark Jedi Level 10- Sith Master

And each gets up to 4 powers of 3 levels that they master. It could work but they are by no means immortal like the WC3 heroes once they dead they dead.

Admiral Vostok
12-07-2003, 08:14 AM
With that many powers and such it becomes a clickfest like WC3. The problem with Warcraft 3 wasn't that the Heroes could be brought back to life, the problem was they just owned the battlefield with their special powers. Jedi shouldn't be like at all.

Frozted_MM's
12-07-2003, 08:48 AM
Thats why I said smaller scale!!!!