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rii
12-14-2003, 06:50 AM
XAeon.org (http://www.xaeon.org) is hosting a petition to LucasArts.
This petition is regarding the mixed reviews and controversy over the entire multiplayer facet of primarily JedI Academy, but also Star Wars games in general.
The proposal is this : Make a game that is multiplayer only (like Unreal Tournament) that really focuses on eliminating all the glitchiness and utilizes as much of the Star Wars universe as possible (especially since its the only series that includes light sabers) and isn't just reliant on a specific episode or game title (like academy).
All the resources and time spent on creating single player aspects (though sp is fun, don't get me wrong) could be spent on a far better MP title, perhaps including vehicles, stronger weapons/combos/movements, better MP level design, etc.
If LucasArts made a game that was all about multiplayer, and really smoothed out and perfected the dueling aspect especially, its obvious that Star Wars fans and the gaming public as a whole would love it.
Please sign the petition, no registration @ XAeon.org (http://www.xaeon.org) is necessary, no strings attatched.
Please follow this link to see further details on the petition, and sign it!

LucasArts Petition (http://www.xaeon.org/portal/)

Burrie
12-14-2003, 08:31 AM
I might be wrong, but aren't you basically asking for Star Wars:Battlefront (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/starwarsbattlefront/news_6084869.html)?

Kurgan
12-14-2003, 08:35 AM
Not saying this isn't a good idea by any means, and please sign the petition if you agree with it, but....



The proposal is this : Make a game that is multiplayer only (like Unreal Tournament) that really focuses on eliminating all the glitchiness and utilizes as much of the Star Wars universe as possible (especially since its the only series that includes light sabers) and isn't just reliant on a specific episode or game title (like academy).

Star Wars Galaxies?


All the resources and time spent on creating single player aspects (though sp is fun, don't get me wrong) could be spent on a far better MP title, perhaps including vehicles, stronger weapons/combos/movements, better MP level design, etc.

Galaxies again?


If LucasArts made a game that was all about multiplayer, and really smoothed out and perfected the dueling aspect especially, its obvious that Star Wars fans and the gaming public as a whole would love it.

Galaxies has Jedi dueling, though we honestly don't know how "good" it is (it's probably not as mechanically cool as JA's, but that's just a guess).


Good luck!


Update: After looking at the site a little more in depth it seems all they're asking for is a JA style FPS that is "better" and they think that ignoring SP altogether will make this happen. I guess I can't argue with that, although everybody knows its hit or miss making a game.

I'm sure LA/Raven didn't SET OUT to make a game that people would hate with JK2 or JA.

The Count
12-14-2003, 08:43 AM
One way to ressurect the Jedi Knight Series other than having a new dark jedi teaming up with the remnant again is to make a Jedi Knight game along the lines of X Wing Vs. TIE Fighter.

Zappa_0
12-14-2003, 01:10 PM
Sounds like a good idea, but I think everything you are wanting is gonna be in Battlefront. But I will still sign it.

Kurgan
12-14-2003, 09:32 PM
Making the game from the point of view of a Dark Jedi would be a nice way to do it, but then that would entail a Single Player campaign.

As it is, the game is already like XvT in that you can be a Bad Guy or a Good Guy and you can have teams divided into Empire/Rebels or DarkSide/LightSide.

Syzerian
12-14-2003, 10:16 PM
wow this is gonna be great ive told people on other forums to sign it

SpaceButler13
12-14-2003, 10:44 PM
Even if Lucas Arts was interested in and there was a significant market for the 1337 among us, the difference between JA and JO, which seems to be the main beef held against JA, how would that be large enough to even be able to market effectively? "Jedi Universe! It's Jedi Academy but like Jedi Outcast without the spinning backstab!!!" I don't understand what this petition would be. There hav been so many reactions to and against JO and JA that with such subjectivity they could rerelease JA but without the single-player and call it an answer to that petition. They could also remove everything anyone thinks of as an exploit by using only one swing too..... I guess this is getting muddled but oh well.....

JediLiberator
12-14-2003, 11:25 PM
In my opinion this petition is silly. The thing that defines the best lucasarts games is the single player storylines they created, which added to the continuity of the Star Wars Universe. This is especially true of the JK series. Multiplayer is and always should be a secondary thing. Now, Im not saying things like glitching hit detection and the static combos are acceptable, but that's an issue that affects SP and MP. Plus, its something that never should have happened. JA was lucasarts way of getting more money out of gamers and now that they have that cash why would they listen to people complain about the product?

SpecialForces
12-14-2003, 11:45 PM
why do people say JK3 is ****?

Syzerian
12-15-2003, 04:59 AM
they say its **** because its new and hasnt had a chance to be patched propally and still has glitches
people also keep complaining about the sabers and this is ment to be fixed in the next patch
because of all this complaining i just play siege and duel cuz u cant play the other game modes without people whining about lamerz and sabers (exceptions to meat grinder and chop shop;) )

cheeto101
12-15-2003, 05:12 AM
cause theyre smokin da cheeba?? lol, i dunno, everyones entitled to their own opinion.

Personally, id be happy with a more intuitive and realistic saber system, better graphics (lol, not so important, but hey, while your makin a game, might as well make it look pretty too), some good ol classic Swars soundtrack and a story line like JK.

I mean, Id be extatic if they took JK, revamped it with new engine and added in a sweet cinematic-esq saber system.

Prime
12-15-2003, 05:14 PM
Of course Lucasarts will never see/ignore any sort of petition like this, but have fun :)

Rad Blackrose
12-15-2003, 06:12 PM
this is ment to be fixed in the next patch

Unless Raven is engaged in some anti-LA stealth action, I doubt we will see another patch.

SpecialForces
12-15-2003, 06:17 PM
A "JK3 Tester" said there will be two more patches.
Im not sure if she really was a tester but it really seemed like it to me.

Agen
12-15-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by SpecialForces
why do people say JK3 is ****?
Anyone that would say the game is good is playing the game and not here. :p

Master William
12-15-2003, 07:20 PM
No offense but I have never heard of a worse petition in my life. This petition is so worthless IMO.

AxVegetA
12-15-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by JediLiberator
Multiplayer is and always should be a secondary thing.
Wrong.
In JO, after u beat SP 2 or 3 times u get sick of it. After that, all that maters is MP. Exactly the same for JA.

JA IS MP.

I always wanted JA to be a fully MP game, and i really think SP is a waste of time.
And galaxies is way diferent than JA, thats an rpg.

I guess ill sign in if this helps to make a really good Jedi Knight MP game for next year.

razorace
12-15-2003, 08:25 PM
According to all the marketing reports/stats that I've heard, a majority of gamers only play single player in most mp/sp games.

Prime
12-15-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Unless Raven is engaged in some anti-LA stealth action, I doubt we will see another patch. I'll believe there will be another patch when I see it.

Originally posted by SpecialForces
A "JK3 Tester" said there will be two more patches. You've been "punked".

Originally posted by razorace
According to all the marketing reports/stats that I've heard, a majority of gamers only play single player in most mp/sp games.I've read this too. I guess if most gamers really played MP instead of SP, we would see a hell of a lot more MP-only games, since that would be where the market was. But since SP games still seem to dominate the shelves, that is probably a pretty good sign that SP is still king. I mean, KOTOR is a huge seller and potential game of the year, and it doesn't have an MP component at all.

JediLiberator
12-15-2003, 10:53 PM
JO sp didn't end once you beat the raven made campaign. There's still plenty of player made mods and sp maps so the JO sp game could go on a helluva a long time after you beat the original campaign. This brings an originality to the game mp can't. In mp you fight in the same basic pattern to defeat enemies. There's no story, no mission, no long term foe you have to beat, just killing people who might as well be nameless bots for all the significance they have to you. This is more true now with JA than it was with JO. Besides, if all you care about is MP combat then wait for next star wars game, which focuses on mp military style combat. No saber fighting, but at least you'll get an mp that you don't have to pay monthly for (hopefully). Personally I'd rather wait for the next game in the X-wing series or JK series to come out( or maybe a sequal to KOTOR). Those games are a helluva lot more original that just running, gunning, and sabering some people the same way over and over again. Just my two cents on the whole deal for today.

rii
12-16-2003, 07:09 AM
This is going to be long.
I will do my best to not only share my personal opinion, but also the opinions that support / deny my opinion. I'm not forming this post to gripe about anything at all, or attempt to remove credit from where it is due in any way. I am going to cover the gameplay of JK2/JKA and point out strengths as well as weaknesses, not to form a review - but to hopefully convey understanding as to what the LA Petition was started for.

I may appear to digress or rant to some degree, but please bare with me, the closing of my post will tie together everything that I mention.

I bought Jedi Outcast for the SP experience, because up until that time, my personal fav MP experience was on the original Unreal Tournament. I didn't personally expect much from the MP experience in JO because (not just being based on Q3A) of the expected limitations regarding the storyline, and how this would trickle down to MP. I was an avid fan of the original Dark Forces game, and DF2, the original Jedi Knight. After plunking around in MP in JO I remembered the character selection screeen in DF2:JK...
it included the Mandalorian, and various other characters NOT in the storyline of JK. JK2 only had models/characters present in the storyline. This ushers in the topic of homegrown mods/models/skins/etc, but let's not digress from the subject at hand.

The point is simple : JK2 MP was JK2 ONLY... not Star Wars. JA did a much better job of attempting to incorperate your staple components of SW such as Vader's palace on Korriban (if you can't have Vader, you gotta improvise - good move).

Granted, I appreciate the Kyle character far better than even Luke, but in MP - you are sharing the world of this game with thousands of people at any given time - you are NOT reenacting scenes from the SP experience. These thousands of people (until homegrown modding boomed) signified their individualism by changing the colors of their names, because every other opponent they came across shared the same skin that they did (there were maybe a max of 5 skins that were cool to every1)... I never saw so many clans form in such a short amount of time, and watched the modding community really band together to pull something very STAR WARS from the whole mess JK2 was in the beginning. Point : Fans were forced to a degree to appease themselves.

---A side note---
Before I continue, a valid point to not only SW games, but SW in general... what is the single most crucial component of a Star Wars title, be it a movie, a book, or a video game? You can take a flight sim, reskin/render new models and call them CORTs, XWings, and Ties, and make a few fresh maps and call it "Star Wars"... but is it really? You can take a few models from UT and call them "Jedi," but are they? The answer is simple : NO. Would any of George Lucas's SW movies be as elegant and just cool as **** without the light saber - honestly?
SW ships / characters are unique to a degree, but parallel many independent epic stories. However, those independent epics don't include lightsabers. Jedi (at the risk of committing blasphome to hardcore SW fans) are just equal opportunity Bene Gesserit a'la DUNE (Dune was PUBLISHED in the 60's for those in denial - and btw the vader/luke struggle was also patterned after the Barron Harkonnen and the Atreides offspring, also the sand worm and the sarlakk pit, spice mining, the messiah being raised on a desert planet, the essence of self-control and elegant combat in a sci-fi realm - mmmhmm all in DUNE first). The Dune remarks aren't offered to offend fans or deface SW, just to illustrate one major difference between the 2 - yep, the flashy burny stick.
----back to MP gaming---

LucasArts / Raven DID listen to the fans. Patches adjusted the MP experience (primarily in duel) to fit the needs and overall funfactor for the MP community as a whole. Despite the initial disgust at v1.04 of JO MP, it was a very stable and elegant system that achieved the greatest hopes of those who stuck with JK2 since its release, growth, and evolution.
The one component of Jedi Outcast MP that separated it from all other MP FPS games was the lightsaber, specifically Duel. Force is an essence of Star Wars, but in a gamer's world, force is nothing but a power up - an extra option - a rose that would still smell as sweet if it was called "adrenaline"(UT2k3) .

The major difference between JK2 MP/SP : SPEED.

JK2 SP was a scripted form of entertainment, regardless of your freedom... in order to progress you had to adhere to "mission objectives," and be limited by the openness or intentional lack thereof in the scripts of each level. As such, there are multiple ups/downs in balls to the wall action, that were fairly evenly matched with attempts at making the game a little more cerebral, and have good ole Kyle solve a few problems. As most games progress, there's your standard issue power ups before and after a major incursion... and with the natural predictability of certain aspects, you have a moment or 2 to go braindead... so what do game developers do (as they should)? They bless Kyle with newfound acrobatic skills a'la Darth Maul and young ObiWan... these moves like the yellow-stanced DFA and focused deaths were bullet-timed for a moment longer than MP to give you something to gawk at... but as most things that end up becoming repetitive... the extra time for the animation becomes a feeling of hinderence... perhaps for some an excuse for getting stomped by those 5 Reborn while the game made you watch Kyle twirl like a ballerina.
JK2 MP was unscripted, live, fast, and unpredictable... at times utter chaos, at others a cerebral challenge with equally witted and talented opponents. The extra animations of SP were slimmed down dramatically, not just for frames, or laggers, but because speed is the name of the game when you're acting against someone who won't think the same as you. Any multiplayer experience is more random and chaotic than a scripted sequence of events being played out all by the same AI. When dueling against an obviously skilled and disciplined thinker, one could liken the combat and challenge to that of a game of chess. For every move you make, you may own the match from the start, or inevitably suffer the consequences of a careless maneuver. The combat system was tuned enough in 1.04 to really leave it to the player, not his/her linespeed or system spec. I personally witnessed several skilled competitors rule my own server, and destroy me even with my connection advantage because of their patience, and adaptation, as my skills were somewhat plateaued by smugness and understanding of exploiting the errors that people may make... but other opponents that also understood those implications, who showed far greater patience and determination inevitably won, regardless of their pings, or their score on the leaderboard. A saying I once heard in a server was that "the best man wins the duel, the luckiest of the best men wins the match." The one opponent who could identify and exploit the leader with 9 out of 10 may or may or may not actually ever get to fight him, and his opportunity to shine might never come.

I personally bought JKA in the hopes that it would take the foundation that was laid by JK2, and expand on it. Extra weapons, extra moves, yippee... what good are these weapons and moves if they're not tuned? Unfortunately, where JK2 MP was tuned for speed and user self-dependence... JKA MP Combat is not. In attempts to reduce the clipping and collision errors, they maintained the "slow and steady" pace of SP. The speed of execution of moves is paced the same as SP, and this keeps the seemingly stronger new weapons under a certain control, but can anyone admit that fighting with the single saber in JKA is even remotely comparable to fighting with SS in JK2 MP? The yellow DFA in JKA is numbed, making it executable without targeting the enemy, which is suicide for the player who may accidentally execute it, and just something else that unrefined players constantly repeat in hopes of a lucky strike. The katas and new secondary attacks of the multi-saberists are welcome additions to the dueling aspect, but are unfortunately dumbed down for the sake of what? Some opinions state that its to control the potential for getting lost, or some players taking the speed increase that JK2 MP had and using it as another excuse not to refine their fight, and just hack away - a very good and valid point. But do half of the saberists online not do that anyway? Especially in JKA MP, where on any given server you have at least one person trying to figure out how to coordinate themselves with the new saber / kata additions?

JK2 by its end had a refined combat system. It forced its players to refine their technique, which enriched the enjoyment of veterans and inspired newcomers to refine their skill and fight with such elegant prowess as the vets... is that not what Jedi are - elegantly powerful? Not unlike the game of chess, an elegant battle of the most powerful tool of humanity - its own mind.

Most gamers of JK2/JKA SP (and even a few in MP) found that the best weapon to use throughout most of the game was the lightsaber... why? Because its automated blocks for blasters coupled with a splash of force push pretty much rendered any kind of attack imposed useless unless it was an attack via lightsaber... Since they added an acrobatic touch in JK2, and dove much deeper into the acrobatics of Phantom Menace in JKA, why not have the saber blocks the same too? Of course this would make the games a bit more difficult, but there were many instances where ObiWan swung at energy bolts with his saber like he was batting for a homerun... Defensively, according to skill level, the light saber acted as just another shield... and Raven knew it, why else would your shield max out @ 50 instead of 100 unless you got a super boost? Logically, to try and balance the added difficulty, why not let you have some freedom with your defense, and amp the shield output a little bit? And if some players aren't able to grasp the basics of such a defense, wouldn't that be what you have a "padawan" skill level for? Let it be automated in that case. Even with heavy repeating weapons, or attacks from multiple sides, why not be able to hold the saber in a defensive stance like a "bunting" stance where you could control the angle and incline of the saber, but not swing at it? Understandably, a "defend" key would be another key to add to the maelstrom, but for most folks using a 3 button wheelmouse, you have primary attack, secondary, most scroll the wheel to change weapons, and the 3rd button (the wheel), is perhaps a "use" key, or bow, or taunt, or something that wouldn't suffer terribly from being transferred to one out of over 100 convenient keys on the keyboard.
As far as taunt goes, if i have time to be an ***hole I have time to properly defend myself.

And where's a useful administration scheme and server hosting kit that comes with the game? I personally (as alot are also - and others could care less) am sick and tired of getting games without adequate hosting solutions included. Why not have a "server generator" utility like the homegrown "jedi runner" app made by the guys @ gamerunners.com? Why do I have to go around my posterior to get to my elbow just to set up a customized and fully functional server that I CAN ADMIN AS I SEE FIT?

Galaxies is a StarWars equivalent of Ultima, and you pay to essentially role-play, the same as Ultima... there's really no "I'd like to ram my saber through a guy's chest for fifteen minutes" option.
I checked.

People have mentioned BattleFront, and I'm sure it will be a good title. However, there is a designated type of play that its catering to, which is your MOHAA, and CS style of gameplay. Unless LA pulls a rabbit out of their hind quarters to make it much more than a good run of team deathmatch or seige, I'll stick to the professionals... Anyone gamer and fan of SW would love to be in the great battles of the movies, but how limited will they be because of that very fact - that they're totally reliant on the scriptage and "mission perameters" of the specific battle at hand?
I don't recall many SnowTroopers carrying sabers and weilding the force. I don't recall any Jedi carrying around a concussion rifle on their backs...

For the proposed MP title: team based - why not have the legions of Xizor (for non-movie SW story lovers) vs the Empire? Why not the outer rim gangsters warring with each other? There ARE Rebel footsoldiers, where have they been in ANY Star Wars game?
As for space battles - the hugest battles of the original trilogy... how true can BattleFront honestly be to those (if at all) if its to be a ground-assault type of FPS?
Unfortunately, early word on BattleFront doesn't convey any such type of opportunity... hopefully this will change.

A huge amount of respect I have for the vehicle implementing modding public out there. THEY made a semi-flight sim out of JA... THEY made a racing game out of JA... it goes to prove the kind of very cool and very expandable resources LucasArts could have tapped in producing JA. Perhaps letting a singleplayer experience take a break on another title and letting MP flourish is precisely what it would take to break the mold of most FPS in general, and tip the balance of that "people that buy games for SP over MP" demographic.

For those non-movie story lovers, this is a perfect opportunity to answer any kinds of what ifs, without waiting for George Lucas to make a movie about it. A sort of choose your own adventure in MP land.

To some up the point of this post: A scripted SP game is great, and deserves all the credit due for that particular type of gameplay. A random and non-linear MP game is great, when you have all the essentials to making it great. Those essentials don't necessarily rely on scripts but more on diversity, accomodating the individuals who work independently or as a team to make the magic of the actual MP experience.
StarWars is a virtually endless abyss of creative and enjoyable content. The key in to unlock the door is the lightsaber. Behind the door is the realm of Star Wars as a whole... not just JK2 or JKA.
Who cares if I want a 65 yr old Ben Kenobi to fight "Jabba's Slave" Princess Leia in a duel? If I play as an Imperial officer against a Rodian in JK2/JKA, is it really that different?
When it boils down to it, the fans decide on whether or not a game is going to be fun, with the undying world of modding, and self expression in the world, the fans WILL have fun... a simple request to LucasArts is in order just to play THEIR parts and not make it so hard on us. I gladly pay, I'd gladly like to open a game I just dropped 50 bucks on and not have to wait to enjoy it because my comrades and I have to coordinate our efforts over weeks and months to make it useful.

Ardent
12-16-2003, 04:25 PM
Battlefront will be the salvation of Star Wars as a video game brand name. Plus it'll be the most kickass FPS since Planetside. ^_^ (and it'll be free once you buy the box!)

Side
12-16-2003, 04:27 PM
that way too long..................like a one wise once said

''too long,didnt read''

Syzerian
12-16-2003, 09:59 PM
i heard that raven was going to bring out a patch at new years bringing down the staffs average damage per second and broken animation problems

razorace
12-16-2003, 11:31 PM
Source?

Kurgan
12-17-2003, 04:31 AM
Btw, I loaded up JK2 again to see if the charge of "game speed being slower" for JA was correct.

JA and JK2 both use g_speed "250" for both SP & MP.

I also didn't see any discernable difference in the speed of the special moves (JK2 1.04 MP vs. JA 1.01 MP), but I guess I'd need a side by side video comparision to be absolutely positive.


I'd like to know the source too, RA.

Has somebody looked at the "source code" from the JA SDK and knows what changes it contains? If there's going to be another official patch, surely that would give us some clue...

Personally I don't see the point in lowering Staff damage myself, it's already just fine, though I play with increased damage for all sabers, and the Staff doesn't dominate... and it's not useless either. ; )

SpaceButler13
12-17-2003, 05:33 AM
Here's the basic problem: You think that because you liked JK2 you take your personal view of that game and believe that other people share that, and that you are then entitled to have that pandered to for the rest of your life. I'm sorry. This is a different game. They don't owe you your own ideal jedi game. They owe us a working product for our fifty dollars, which they FINALLY @(#*&@()#* delivered with that blasted patch. If you don't like the game, it's too bad, but that's life.

Kurgan
12-17-2003, 06:54 AM
On a related note I was playing around with g_speed in JA to try to aproximate the speed from MotS, which I fired up for comparison.

I haven't got it exact, but 500 seems about right, or somewhere in that range.

In MotS (like JK1), walk speed felt more like JK2/JA's run speed, and run speed felt almost twice as fast (after a split second start). While JK2/JA's Force Speed does 2x, 4x, and 8x running (?), the highest level of MotS speed (level 4) seemded to double both running and walking speed (making Speed walking the same as normal running an normal running 2x faster).

So doubling the overall speed feels closer to what you had in the old games.

Though, things like blaster shots, rate of fire, turning speed, etc aren't necessarily all balanced to that (though the speed of saber swings feels about the same), so leave that to a mod that wants to tweak the game to JK1/MotS level speeds.

But JK2 = JA in terms of speed. Graphically JK2 feels more plain and unpolished in terms of graphics compared to JA, even though so much is the same in the two games. And there are fewer moves (except for a few lingering exploits and the much lamented flip kicks of course).

Both SP games (JA and JK2) both have a more bouncy, floating, "loose" feeling compared to their MP counterparts.

My suggestion to people not happy with JA... get into editing, and mod it to the point where you like it, then release it and get all your friends to use the mod.

Until the next game that is...

razorace
12-17-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Has somebody looked at the "source code" from the JA SDK and knows what changes it contains? If there's going to be another official patch, surely that would give us some clue...

Changes from JK2? lots There's a lot that is the same but a lot that is different as well. :)

Astrotoy7
12-17-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by rii
This is going to be long........

boy oh boy ! Thats a fair effort for your 3rd post Rii !
In my 3rd post, I said something along the lines of "This game is cool because it has tauntauns !"

As for the petition..................Zzzzzzzzz. Couldnt care less. I hate Battlefield even more....I would really love to see a flight sim in the SW universe, along the lines of the XW/Tie series...... Rebel Strike is fun, but I wouldnt really call it a flight sim, more an arcade game.....

MTFBWYA

**Goes back to playing KOTOR, THE GREATEST SW GAME OF ALL TIME**

Side
12-17-2003, 01:08 PM
cant ya flight in SWG?
some guy told me he could

Rad Blackrose
12-17-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Side
cant ya flight in SWG?
some guy told me he could

Yanked at the last minute due to SOE's incompetance.

It's probably going to be in the first expansion...

acdcfanbill
12-17-2003, 11:33 PM
If i wanna fly, i'll play a game like freespace, wing commander, or xwing ;) besides the flying in swg will prob suck you'll fly around and then the computer will roll die and see if u hit the other guy or not :(

SpecialForces
12-18-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by AxVegetA
Wrong.
In JO, after u beat SP 2 or 3 times u get sick of it. After that, all that maters is MP. Exactly the same for JA.

JA IS MP.

I always wanted JA to be a fully MP game, and i really think SP is a waste of time.
And galaxies is way diferent than JA, thats an rpg.

I guess ill sign in if this helps to make a really good Jedi Knight MP game for next year.


OMG, no offence but that would SUCK
I have to go places all the time!
SP is important, its an away from home game :)
MP is an at home thing, that I play the most :)

Kurgan
12-18-2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Changes from JK2? lots There's a lot that is the same but a lot that is different as well. :)

Heh, no. I meant changes (if any) from JA 1.01 in the current JA SDK.

Prime
12-18-2003, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Yanked at the last minute due to SOE's incompetance.

It's probably going to be in the first expansion... So doesn't that make it about a year late?

Rad Blackrose
12-18-2003, 03:36 AM
Depends on if and when. If in terms of if they have the technology to pull it off, when in terms of how long it's going to take to get to a stable, playable state.

I'd give it two, maybe three years. But then again, it could turn out like Horizons... *grumble*

Kurgan
12-18-2003, 05:44 AM
I read on the official site that vehicles support in SWG had already been added.

However that must not have included space based vehicles (ie: starfighters) since you guys are saying that "expansion" hasn't been released yet.


Three of the things they said would be out of box that weren't now finally been added:

Drivable/ridable vehicles
Buildable cities (you can incorporate buildings into cities over time)
Jedi (force sensitive classes are being discovered by players to train into Jedi/Sith)

Though again this is second hand info since I don't play the game, I'm just going by what I've read on the sites.

Prime
12-18-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan

Though again this is second hand info since I don't play the game, I'm just going by what I've read on the sites. WHich is what I'm going on to, since I have no interest in playing Galaxies...

Marker0077
12-20-2003, 07:35 AM
I'm not even reading this thing, I read quite a bit of this post on GamingForums so I'll just post what I posted there here.Originally posted by rii
The proposal is this : Make a game that is multiplayer only (like Unreal Tournament)... That will not ever happen & I do not blame them.

Single player is their money maker. It sells tens of thousands of copies where the actual online community playing isn't even over 1 thousand. If you put the JK2 & JK3 actually online population count together, it doesn't go over 1,500. I get that information directly from the Ravensoft & GameSpy master servers (combined count). Hell, there's alot of games out there that have a higher online population count with their mods than with this retail game (I'm not referring to Counter-Strike, that is retail in my book).

You need to keep in mind that these guys do not have the luxery of just doing whatever they want, they have a deadline to meet & they got done what they could within that timeline. Be happy with what you've got, it could have been alot worse.

They make the MP source code available to us so that we may fix MP on our own. If something coded is good enough & the population seems to like it, they'll probably code it or something similar in the next retail release of the series.Originally posted by rii
Despite the initial disgust at v1.04 of JO MP...Hav no clue WTF you are on about there. Everyone I knew then & know now, as well as myself, loved that release from the get go. Mainly because it eliminated the backattack whoring.Originally posted by rii
The major difference between JK2 MP/SP : SPEEDThis is where I stopped reading. I realize you said that it will all make sense in the end but TBH, I doubt it & even if it would, I don't care. You are obviously not a developer & do not appreciate what you have, otherwise this petition would not be here in the first place.

If you think your views are this significant & could change the game for the greater good, I recommend that you concentrate your efforts in learning how to mod & not make more threads like this one. If your mod is that good & you pimp it off enough, it will get the download count. Making a mod that gets atleast a decent download count is not hard at all as long as you know what you are doing & you pimp it off enough.

Kurgan
12-20-2003, 02:42 PM
Yeah, the only retail pc games that have many THOUSANDS of players are basically MMORPG's and Battlenet.

Tagster
12-21-2003, 11:00 PM
Can you really sign a petition that makes someone think or work harder? I didn't know that. There needs to be about 10,000 people to sign that...

Tagster
12-21-2003, 11:01 PM
Double post edit. I was lagging that day.

SpaceButler13
12-22-2003, 06:59 AM
Disgust at 1.04 eh? I got JO before 1.04 and that patch is what made me pick it up and try multiplayer again. I wasn't a noob and had played plenty of games before. The spinning backstab and the pull-bug, (which, with the new mechanics from JK, I did't realize was a bug for a while much to my frustration, yeah, so I'm slow...), made playing so frustrating I gave up and replayed sp and then played other things. Now I actually mosly play duel now, and I'm pretty decent. Just for the record, a lot of good players liked 1.04 and I'm sick of hearing that stupid whining.

Alegis
12-22-2003, 07:26 AM
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comes from another planet
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Aargh the whole SP/MP thing, I 've always seen MP as a secondary thing that uses elements from the SP. Yes that's right, elements from the SP..Models, textures etc.. You got a single player and you just add a MP to it by staying in the same theme (kinda difficult IMO to not have 'theme') The reason there was SP is because some years ago not everyone had internet and all that. And MP fun is depending on the community, amount of players, what kind of players..so normally you can't guarantee fun with it

rii
12-24-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by SpaceButler13
Disgust at 1.04 eh? I got JO before 1.04 and that patch is what made me pick it up and try multiplayer again. I wasn't a noob and had played plenty of games before. The spinning backstab and the pull-bug, (which, with the new mechanics from JK, I did't realize was a bug for a while much to my frustration, yeah, so I'm slow...), made playing so frustrating I gave up and replayed sp and then played other things. Now I actually mosly play duel now, and I'm pretty decent. Just for the record, a lot of good players liked 1.04 and I'm sick of hearing that stupid whining.

Alright, for those who obviously DID NOT read the post, or not even half-ass skimmed it... "the initial disgust" w/ 1.04 JK2 was the public opinion at the dramatic changes that were made from 1.03 to 1.04.... here's a DIRECT G**D*** quote from the post:

"Despite the initial disgust at v1.04 of JO MP, it was a very stable and elegant system that achieved the greatest hopes of those who stuck with JK2 since its release, growth, and evolution."

Let me break this down for those who can't read, won't read, and those who argue just for the sake of being obstinate:
At first, public opinion of jk2 1.04 was a little less than open-armed acceptance... but the veterans, those who played for challenge as opposed to whoring... really respected and appreciated those changes.... AKA : LOVED 1.04, after getting to know and understand it.

As a reminder, the main driving force behind this petition's beginning was to get a public response about the things they dislike and the things they like about the current titles, and work together to help formulate an all-around balanced and well designed MP Star Wars game... I can tell most of the people that have replied or posted in this thread haven't even read the details of the petition mission... the petition isn't what matters, what matters are the constructive criticisms, and the productive/creative ideas to get the word out there that LA is on the right track, but they're not there yet.

For those that refer to the petition or thread as a whining session or a SW game bashing moment, its not that at all... the positives and strong suits of their current titles are mentioned just as often as the weaknesses and inconsistencies those strong points coexist with.

A petition is a formal public claim, that provides sources to fortify that claim (signatures in this case). A petition at its best is just a formal organization of people's interests and concerns regarding a common topic/goal. Just because a petition is released, that doesn't mean anyone is bound to care about it... things of a contrary nature are subpoenas and warrants... a petition is humble.

I agree that SP is the cash cow for just about ANY game... but that doesn't necessarily have to be the rule from now to the end of time... an amazing experience is all it takes to open minds.

As for the "speed" issue:
I went back and reread the statement regarding speed to derive where "gamespeed" was the issue... I don't recall nor do I see gamespeed scripting being involved in any form in the statement.

To clarify an already very simple statement:
"JK2 MP was unscripted, live, fast, and unpredictable... at times utter chaos, at others a cerebral challenge with equally witted and talented opponents. The extra animations of SP were slimmed down dramatically,".... I don't see "gamespeed".. hmm.

That quote is direct from the massive post from before that everyone is complaining about, that apparently none of them read to begin with... this indicates that the animations were slimmed in JK2mp, not that the gamespeed was amped... as supported by the following quote about JKAmp:

"Unfortunately, where JK2 MP was tuned for speed and user self-dependence... JKA MP Combat is not. In attempts to reduce the clipping and collision errors, they maintained the "slow and steady" pace of SP. The speed of execution of moves is paced the same as SP, and this keeps the seemingly stronger new weapons under a certain control, but can anyone admit that fighting with the single saber in JKA is even remotely comparable to fighting with SS in JK2 MP?".... a slight mix of fact and opinion...

And here's a perfect example of the animation differences of SP vs MP in either JK2 or JKA... where the Yellow DFA in both SP games is graceful, the animation of the move is much heavier and slower to retain the elegance... but in JK2MP 1.04 there is a VERY noticable trimming of the extra frames used to animate the DFA (which in turn speeds up the move, and allows you to keep moving and not slow down the fight, all without changing "gamespeed")... in JKA there is absolutely no change from SP to MP, but in JKA a HUGE difference from JK2:

"The yellow DFA in JKA is numbed, making it executable without targeting the enemy," again... FACT. JK2 required you to target your opponent, AND be within range. JKA does NOT.

I used unedited quotes from that initial post that have the same meaning, and still portray precisely the same message...

I just don't see the whole argument with the speed thing above all else.... it's not opinion, its fact... a fact that is extremely evident to those who open their eyes and minds.

Marker0077
12-24-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by rii
Let me break this down for those who can't read, won't read, and those who argue just for the sake of being obstinate:First off, calm down killer. No ones attacking you & even if they were, don't reduce yourself to their level. Lets try & keep things civilized (not implying you were being uncivil) please.

Now perhaps how you are saying something you might be meaning it one way but SpaceButler13 was obviously taking it another & TBH, so was I. That's just how it sounded to us. Just a bit of miscommunication there, nothing to get riled up over. I realize his somewhat rude post is probably what you are upset about but keep in mind, most of the people in here are in the 14 to 26 year old range.Originally posted by rii
As a reminder, the main driving force behind this petition's beginning was to get a public response about the things they dislike and the things they like about the current titles, and work together to help formulate an all-around balanced and well designed MP Star Wars game... Ya but you're going about it all the wrong way. You're doing a petition. If you want to discuss improvement ideas that's one thing, you're telling them to make changes like make the game MP only which is absolutely insane. SP is what makes them their money, there's no way in hell that's going to happen.

Contructive critisism is starting a thread, getting feedback from the community, maybe even voting on some options, then take those concepts & suggestions & whatnot & send it to Raven but in all reality, even that isn't going to really make them make changes.

Look at JK3. It's basically a souped up JK2 with JediMod & some other various improvements. If you want Raven to make some changes, mod the game & get people into it. That'll get their attention. It appearently did with JK2.Originally posted by rii
A petition is a formal public claim, that provides sources to fortify that claim (signatures in this case).There are no signatures with those types of petitions & with the way those petitions are setup, there is no way to verify that the same person didn't sign a few times or more. Even if there was though, I doubt it would make a difference.Originally posted by rii
I agree that SP is the cash cow for just about ANY game... but that doesn't necessarily have to be the rule from now to the end of time...Sure it does, SP will always be the cash cow at least until internet with consoles become more common place.

People will always need a PC/console to play the game. They don't need an internet connection to play & forcing them into a "MP only" game is a big turn off for alot of people. It's less flexibility any way you look at it. That's not smart IMO.

Most people don't even know how to use the internet like we do, so they use console system on the net to simplify things & that works for them.Originally posted by rii
The extra animations of SP were slimmed down dramaticallyActually there is about 3,000 to 5,000 more animation frames in JK3 than in JK2 with the actual player models that we use as ourself. I'm not sure which animations you are referring to.

Anyways, this is where I stopped reading. I've been up all night looking into a variety of development stuff like creating new player animations, bettering the weapon models, etc; etc. so I apologize if a bit of what I've posted doesn't make sense.

The bottom line here is I understand that you think there are certain things that can be improved, which you are right but guess what - there's *always* going to be room for improvement, there's *always* going to be a problem. Some of what you are saying we don't agree with, some of it we do, but you went off & made this petition & expect people to sign it without communicating with the public first. I would think some of what is said here has changed your opinion on a matter or two, what are you going to do now, change the terms of the petition?

The petition is just the wrong way of going about it IMO. There are more fun & effective ways to improve the game. If you really want to make some of this a reality I suggest you go to the OJP forums & submit ideas & if they are good, one of us will mod it.

wingzro
12-25-2003, 12:02 AM
skimming through this petition idea, some parts I agree while others I don't. MP is fun however, like stated before, depends on who just happens to be online. you might end up playing with a bunch of jack asses, which has happened to me a few times when playing MP games. I can't always just phone up my buddies and tell them to get online to play a little MP. MP is fun yes, but a game really shouldn't be ALL MP, that just puts me down on a game. if a game were totally kick ass with beautiful graphics, spectacular gameplay, awesome sound, etc. and were only available for MP I would probably still try it out, but I probably wouldn't play as much. MP is repetitive at times; go online, find a server, customize your junk, run around, shoot/slash, kill, die, next, etc. I don't know about you, but I like to play games with a story/plotline; which SP can provide.

Prime
12-25-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by rii
I agree that SP is the cash cow for just about ANY game... but that doesn't necessarily have to be the rule from now to the end of time... an amazing experience is all it takes to open minds. True, but so far that amazing experience has been to be called "gey lamerz" by "l33t d00ds". Indeed technology will advance to deliver greater and greater online experiences, but ultimately the MP experience relies on other players to create the immersion (some care more about this than others). It is impossible for all players to play in a way that everyone else wants. Expectations and views differ, and thus there will always be players who break the immersion of other players. This will always be the case.

Not only will technology continue to improve online experiences, but it will for singleplayer experiences as well. Worlds will become more and more convincing, and more importantly AI and NPCs will be ever more convincing. At some point, singleplayer opponants and allies will be indistinguishable (or at least very close to it) from real people. This will create worlds that are much more immersive than online games can ever be.

That is why I suspect that SP games will remain the cashcow for a long time to come.

That being said, it by no means limits the potential success of MP games.

Emon
12-25-2003, 01:36 AM
I agree with the above. MP won't be able to do what SP can, unless you manage to build a holodeck of sorts.