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razorace
12-18-2003, 04:52 AM
Ok, getting started on stuff, this is what I got done right now:

- Teammates' Sabers now collide with each other even if friendly fire damage is turned off.

- Teammate NPC blades now collide with other teammate blades.

Yeah, it's not much but I'm just studying things at the moment.

The biggie I've found so far that there's no currently set up left or right block positions/animations! We have Top Left, Top, Top Right, Bottom Right, and Bottom Left but no pure left/right blocks! Ack!

razorace
12-22-2003, 09:53 AM
New Features:

- saberthrow is now binded to button12 (+button12 for binding purposes) and/or selectable thru the force menu. Either will still operate the kicks with the saber staff.

- Turning off g_saberBladeFaces will result in poor viewlocking on saber impacts so don't do that.

- changed d_saberSPStyleDamage to 0 for the default. It was causing problems with viewlocking with idle saber damage.

- Viewlocking!

- Manual Blocking. Hold down secondary fire and use your movement keys to set a direction. The current controls are inverted (backwards for upper positions, forwards for lower) The availible positions are Lower Left, Lower Right, Upper Right,Upper Left, Top.

- Hilt bash should in theory work now.

In addition, there's now a new branch (SaberSys) specifically for the saber system I'm working on. This is so people can play with/test the system before we put it in the game proper.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-22-2003, 10:30 AM
...sounding great Razor :)
...I'm looking forward to checking this stuff out...

razorace
12-23-2003, 10:28 AM
Just a minor update today. I'm hooked on Splinter Cell. :)

- Fixed issue with the double/dual saber animation spazing while standing still and holding block position. It was due to the block animation trying to restart each time the block position was refreshed. Since this is no longer the case, blocking will now take up less bandwidth. Yeah!

razorace
12-23-2003, 10:39 AM
Also, from actual game play testing I'm finding that manual blocking is still pretty tricky even with slowed down saber animations. I'm thinking that we're going to have to offset this by giving blocking some nice advantages. Maybe have parries occur automatically (with some random factor) when manual blocking is used?

Darth Sun
12-23-2003, 03:58 PM
I know I'm not part of the team (just been following all of this quietly) so I begin by apologising if I offend anyone with my following words, it's not my intention.

Manual saber blocking, with or without slowed down saber animations will become a problem and a big gambling routine if the player trying to block has a ping higher than 100/150.

The system you're developing, while very interesting, is really only useful in a LAN or low ping (read: under 50/100) envirognment.

Slowing down is "ok" since it can give a chance to better block the incoming attacks, but high pingers will still have to predict, which instantly breaks the system.

I consider this manual blocking a bit like "dodges" in fighting games nowadays; you need reflexes since these dodges are (most of the time) performed at the last few ticks of the opposing attack animation right before it connects with your character.

What I'm trying to say is, slowing down the animations could potentially become redundant since it won't acomplish that much in a high ping situation and might make things a bit more frustrating for low pingers who would like things to be a bit faster than they will/might eventually be.

Player reflexes and prediction of the incoming attack would be the way things should be done in my opinion; it would reward those with good reflexes/prediction ability much like in fighting games nowadays while giving others some room for improvement.

Note that in this solution I'm not even mentioning ping since the animation slowdown wouldn't fix things anyway, leaving the speed the way it is should be better (IMO).

Another thing to note is that the Staff Kata doesn't like to be slowed down, it causes a "bump" in the animation process.

Just my two cents on the subject.
I once again apologise if I offended anyone.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-23-2003, 04:31 PM
I don't take offense, and thanks for your input. I understand your viewpoint, but I disagree.

Concerning the lag issue, I'll quote what I posted in the brainstorming thread:


The other main arguments I hear against a block button are:

"It will make saber combat more lag dependant"
I dont' see this as that valid an argument. Any feature which adds more twitch-skill based gameplay to a game will make the game more lag dependant - that's inevitable and unavoidable.
If you see this as a real problem, then you will undoubedly want to start making guns auto-aim to fight lag too...


If you want to play a game which is unaffected by lag, then play Online Chess. Otherwise, lag is simply something that has to be endured. But I really don't think you should start limiting your game design because of it.

Of course lag has to be taken into account and efforts should be made to cater for it. But things are moving on. Average pings for the average online gamer are getting lower and lower as each year passes. The games have to start moving on too...

Darth Sun
12-23-2003, 06:28 PM
Good point, but maybe I wasn't clear about what I was against.

I'm not against the block button, I'm all for it; what I said was, I'm against the animation slowdown to compensate for the lag when using the block feature, that's the "no no" in my point of view.

Keeping the speed the way it is while adding the block button will reward those who start adapting to their opponent style, considering slowing the attacks down won't really help much in the long run when it comes to lag prevention for the exact same reasons you mentioned.
It would be a crutch, not a solution in my opinion.

I apologise if I wasn't clear before.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-23-2003, 06:39 PM
Ahh - k.
Sorry, I did misunderstand you - I apologise.

But I don't think the anim slowdowns were meant to combat lag, I think it was simply because - for example - blue attacks would simply be too quick to manually defend - unless you had literally super-human reflexes.
...so therefore, assuming we want the defender to at least have a half-decent chance of defending these attacks, the attacks have to be slowed down a bit. i.e. no attacks of blue speed, and possibly even slowing down yellow-type attacks a tad.
...I haven't had a chance to look at Razor's stuff yet - but I believe this is what he has done / is planning to do.

But anyway, this doesn't have anything to do with lag. This problem would still exist on a super-fast LAN...

Darth Sun
12-23-2003, 07:42 PM
Good points.

I'll have to find a compiler and compile what Razor put in the repository regarding his Saber System so I can test it myself and further comment on it.

Although, if the block button is the sort of "keep it pressed and all incoming attacks are autoblocked" would make some of those points null since you could easilly block everything no matter how fast it comes at you, even a simple command could bind the block button to a toggle to spare people's fingers.

But I'm going ahead of myself, I'll first try to compile it and test it before I further comment about this.

Again, I apologise for anything and thanks for the replies.
I really want OJP to work out as much as you all do.

razorace
12-23-2003, 09:24 PM
Why add a button to autoblock if there's no advantage to selectively autoblock in the first place? All you would be doing is just holding the button down all the time. That's not exactly an increase in the dynamics of the gameplay.

As for lag issues, I don't think it's much of a problem because the game becomes unplayable at about 150 ping anyway.

Darth Sun
12-24-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Why add a button to autoblock if there's no advantage to selectively autoblock in the first place? All you would be doing is just holding the button down all the time. That's not exactly an increase in the dynamics of the gameplay.


That's exactly what I said if you read carefully.
I'll rephrase: I said there's no point in slowing it down if the block button can work like an autoblock; then I proceeded to say it was a mere guess since I don't know how the block button is implemented and had to try it out first to be sure, it was a mere hypothesis.

I apologise if you felt insulted by what I said, it wasn't my intention.

razorace
12-24-2003, 02:06 AM
Nah, not insulted. :)

And if you look above, it's NOT a simple "hold for manual block" button. It's a directional block. You use the button to set and hold a blocking position instead of just activating a manual block.

Darth Sun
12-24-2003, 02:14 AM
Oh, right, I missed that. o_O
I apologise, my mistake.

*slaps own forehead for that*

razorace
12-24-2003, 11:13 AM
- Fixed the animation timer code so that saber animation speeds other than 1.0 work correctly.

- Added Movement locking.

It's shaping up nicely now. You can just feel the potential starting to show. :)

razorace
12-25-2003, 12:15 AM
- Sabers now bounces off players (and other damageable objects) when the saber does non-lethal damage. Layman translation: NO MORE GROSS SABER PASSTHRU.

razorace
12-26-2003, 11:23 AM
Has anyone actually tried the system or am I just wasting time by having the saber system be a seperate branch on the Enhanced distro?

If noone actually wants to check it out on the repository, things would be better served if I just merged everything into the Enhanced branch and then allowed people to betatest with the Enhanced releases.

Anyway, I'm to the point where I'm starting to need to make some serious design issues. The primary issue is how we should handle damage calculations and how the saber should act in saber on saber combat. (when should damage occur, when should knockbacks and dropped sabers happen, etc).

keshire
12-26-2003, 11:58 AM
I'm making all my changes using it. Since my stuff is so directly tied to yours.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-26-2003, 01:49 PM
I've tried the new saber system. It's definetly worth keeping it in a seperate branch - for now...

It's looking good so far. The first thing I'm gonna do though is slow down movement while holding down block. Not only does it look a bit silly imo atm, it's also very difficult to actually try and use or appreciate this cool new blocking system while both Jedi are still constantly running around like madmen.

If your worried about saber v guns balance because of this change - I know how to get round these kinds of issues. I've learnt a lot from working on MB about how to handle this..

Anyway, don't worry - I won't submit anything to the repository just yet. Instead I'll send you the occasional .pk3 demo and see what you think of my changes...

razorace
12-26-2003, 08:43 PM
I don't think that's a good idea. Slowing down defender while he is blocking is only going to cause him to get overrun/trapped by an attacker.

However, I agree that the this constant running is a problem. I have some ideas on how to balance it:

1. Cause running characters to take full attack damage from an idle saber (by adding his velocity to damage calculations?) Running onto someone's sword/saber is very bad. This is also how I think the melee combat can be balanced.

2. Cause running to vastly increase your chances of getting knocked off balance (knockdowns or knockback parries).

3. Increase the walk speed to more of a combat walk and majorly slow down the backward run speeds and the pure run strafe speeds.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-26-2003, 11:25 PM
I don't think that's a good idea. Slowing down defender while he is blocking is only going to cause him to get overrun/trapped by an attacker.


I don't know where you are coming from with this at all. I think you are creating a problem where there is none..

Slowing down movement while blocking will not cause the defender to be overrun or trapped . What it WILL do is make your blocking system useful and useable - since you will actually be able to see where the strike is coming from and where to block it...

NickR
12-27-2003, 12:58 AM
I think we should make walking on by default. And possibly make running a stamina issue (You've all talked about stamina). We should also lower the strafe speed.

BTW, sorry for not being around, I've been working and I've had no chance to do any coding. I've talked to the freepository guy and the reason I can get access to our CVS via TortoiseCVS is because he disable remote access (or something like that). He might have a solution but he hasn't emailed me in a while. I still intend to add my work to your Enhanced version of OJP when I get that chance.

razorace
12-27-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
I don't know where you are coming from with this at all. I think you are creating a problem where there is none..

Slowing down movement while blocking will not cause the defender to be overrun or trapped . What it WILL do is make your blocking system useful and useable - since you will actually be able to see where the strike is coming from and where to block it...

And how so? If the defender even moves slightly slower than the attacker, the attacker will be able to have a clear advantage at footwork manveoring and the attacks will still come at the exact same speed. Are you sure you don't mean making the attacker move slower?

I still intend to add my work to your Enhanced version of OJP when I get that chance.

That's great. :) I was a bit worried when you suddenly disappeared. Have you talked to TCK yet about the RGB saber stuff?

NickR
12-27-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Have you talked to TCK yet about the RGB saber stuff?

Not yet. Like I said I've been horribly busy.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-29-2003, 10:49 PM
And how so? If the defender even moves slightly slower than the attacker, the attacker will be able to have a clear advantage at footwork manveoring and the attacks will still come at the exact same speed. Are you sure you don't mean making the attacker move slower?


Ok, I guess I am making an assumption here.
I'm assuming that the plan is that when not holding the block button, you will not actively block incoming saber attacks (regardless of whether your saber happens to be in the right place or not. (This is easiely rationalised - if your not braced to block an attack, you saber is relatively easiely knocked aside...).

If this isn't the plan, then sure, you'd be correct in the attacker having too much of an advantage.
...but, if the attacker hasn't got a proper blocking ability, then constantly running around taking random swipes will leave you dead VERY quickly -regardless of difference in speed.
i.e. both players will need to make appropiate use of block. One may go on the attack more than the other, but not blocking at all will almost certainly lead to a quick decapitation...

..and anyway, you've said yourself that you want to encourage to not run during duels. So basically, you expect the player to use the walk button AND the block button at the same time (or if the player does not run by default, they'll have to hold down the walk / run button to run anywhere..), when there is actually no need to have to use two different buttons. The block button can do both, ending up with a simpler, more consise system...

keshire
12-30-2003, 09:17 AM
Some thoughts.

seven directional blocking:

I think this may be a bit much. In the heat of battle I have problems choosing which way is the best block. Having just left/right would narrow it down a lot bit. Then have the code choose which one to use from there. Up/down/diagonal. And slowing down the transition from direction to direction would give it a better feel.

I see you slowed down swings.

The slow down is disproportionate. Evening them out would be better. Also, crouch+forward attack, jump+forward attack, and specials are unchanged. I'm sure you'll get around to it but I thought I'd point it out. ;) Also it may be a bit too slow. Even on blue.

BloodRiot
12-30-2003, 09:42 AM
Excuse me... but i think both of are are missing a very important point... attaking should keep you from running as well.

You see jedi running and attacking? Sure you see, if it's a quick side swiipe to quickly finish off non saber users like the battle droids, but on a duel they will run up, indeed make a slash as they approach but then everything is just a bit of leg work and not running.

If the attacker is allowed to run and the defender isn't.. then you got an almost stationary target with a hammering oppoenent straf running around in and out of it.

On the other hand if both are allowed to run, then things wont be much diferent that they are now.

That said, you code boys do as your hearts tell you to. ;)

Cheers all.

BloodRiot
12-30-2003, 09:42 AM
Double posted...sorry.

keshire
12-30-2003, 09:46 AM
I think that was a given. :)

Run and strafing need to be limited in some way. Like a sprint button or stamina. ;)

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-30-2003, 12:12 PM
If the attacker is allowed to run and the defender isn't.. then you got an almost stationary target with a hammering oppoenent straf running around in and out of it.


If you've played Movie Battles recently, you'd know this isn't the case. With blocking ability significantly enhanced over any blocking ability you have when running, straf running around in and out isn't an effective tactic - at all - period. You quickly die.
To have a decent chance, BOTH players need to block, and attack each-other from close range, trying to find a gap in the others defenses. With directional blocking, this gameplay dynamic will be enhanced all the more.

I don't need to discuss this in a theoretical manner - I know this is the case.

...but in anycase, Razor is free to do as he likes for the OJP system, and I'll be modifying it somewhat for MB...

keshire
12-30-2003, 12:27 PM
Yes but you also incorporated a sprint button did you not?

One where you have to rest an equal amount of time once let go.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-30-2003, 12:38 PM
Well, before I talk about sprint, it's worth saying that I'm not sure whether I will be including the sprint button into MB II anymore. I'm thinking about it at the moment.

But anyway, yes - the sprint button allows you to defend and run (slower than normal run btw) for a few seconds, then you have to rest. In MBII, this would mean you can't attack, only defend.

...so it's a viable tactic if you want to use it, but it has serious drawbacks - it gives your enemy several seconds of time where he knows you can't counter-attack OR run anywhere (even if he let's go of block), and they REALLY CAN pound on you without fear of getting hurt themsevles.

As I say though, might not be in anwyay.

razorace
12-30-2003, 04:46 PM
I don't really think an additional run button is nessicary. I think it would be easier on players to just use run as if it is sprint.

Assuming that you can automatically deflect bolts at lesser rate while running and that you can Dodge the undeflected ones, you should be able to run down gunners without too many problems.

RenegadeOfPhunk
12-30-2003, 05:07 PM
Yeap - I think I agree...
I'm leaning more and more towards not including the sprint button into MB II

BloodRiot
12-30-2003, 05:14 PM
I also agree... also with Stamina... normal run WILL work as a bit of a sprint as well.

Gotaiken
02-27-2004, 01:58 AM
maybe its just my game or is the sabers going at like the slowest speed imaginable, it takes about 3-5 seconds for a swing to finish, please make the block auto block, i understand that there will be less skill involved for that happening, but slowing down the sabers to a minute crawl isnt the answer, maybe its just me, but if the sabers are supposed to attack for 5 seconds then please change, otherwise tell me what i must do to fix the problem.

keshire
02-27-2004, 04:23 AM
Adjust g_saberanimspeed

1 is the game's default but I'd adjust it .75

I think razor has it set to .25 for testing purposes.

razorace
02-27-2004, 05:36 AM
Well, I originally set it to .25 because I figured that novices would need that sort of speed to be comfortable doing manual blocking. However, it turns out that it's pretty easy to manually block with .5 so I have changed the default to .5 for the next beta release.

Gotaiken
02-28-2004, 02:12 PM
i think that directional blocking should be changed to some degree, sometimes its somewhat difficult to actually determine which attack your opponent is using all the time. the block button should auto block and doing the right direction with the block should grant you a parry. blcoking aganst duals and staffs will be a little tricky otherwise. id also like to test the system with another person, if anyone is up for it tell me.

keshire
02-28-2004, 02:27 PM
yep, left/right and up should do fine. the diagonals need to go.

But then I'd definately put in the feint attack you were talking about to even it back up on the side of skill versus arcade.

razorace
02-28-2004, 06:45 PM
I basically agree but unfortunately, those are the only parry/block animations we have. If we ever get to the point of creating new animations, there's a LOT of stuff that could be done to enhance the saber system.

There's already an autoblock system set up, it just doesn't work very well yet. I think I need to increase the number of situations where it works. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to come up with a thought process on how exactly I'll get the autoblocking to drain points from the dodge system.

In addition, how much should it cost in terms of dodge? I think it should definitely cost less than the body dodges since you have to be not attacking to autoblock.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure that autoblocking should be automatic as long as you're not attacking or doing something special. it's much easier that way and then we don't have to have seperate autoblock and manual block buttons.

Master_Keralys
03-03-2004, 08:46 PM
Are you planning on doing a one-or-the-other kind of thing with the auto-parries when the button is down and actual manual blocking, or are you planning on doing a combination of the system? Personally, I like manual blocking better than the system with the v.b4 where it's pretty much a "hold-down-the-button and you'll be fine" deal. I know it doesn't get the parry bonus after one second, but it doesn't seem to matter very much.

Having to manually block (a) looked cooler, (b) was actually more skill-requiring, and (c) was actually more fun to play with. How are you planning on breaking it up? Don't get me wrong, I'll like it either way, but I think it takes a lot less skill with the almost automatic system of blocking in the parries...

Also, are there further things that are coming as far as the "bouncing off instead of gross passthru" code, b/c unless it's only my and Soruss' PC's, we're still having that problem (at least I think it's him).

BloodRiot
03-05-2004, 04:32 PM
in my opinion, Autoblocking should only work when idle or walking/running. It should consume less dodge yes.

It should work on all types of weapons (ranged and saber) in all situations. i'd limit it's effectiveness to make people not rely on it fully. Like Idle = 90% defense while there is enough dodge points, Walking = 75% and running =50% for instance.

I'd definetly keep it as a safeguard NOT as an active autobloking defense that can last quite a while.

razorace
03-05-2004, 08:50 PM
The problem with the automatic autoblock was that it screwed up your ability to attack effectively.

Also, I'm trying to make blocking skill based, not just some random chance.

Master_Keralys
03-05-2004, 09:03 PM
The problem with the automatic autoblock was that it screwed up your ability to attack effectively.

Also, I'm trying to make blocking skill based, not just some random chance.

Maybe some way to reduce the autoblock probability is all I can think of. I personally think the parry working as an autoblock button requires considerably less skill than the manual blocking did. What if you made is so that the autoparry was only enabled for projectile weapons that you couldn't manually block in time?

Another question for you: what are you planning on doing with the specials/katas?

My suggestion would be to leave them exactly as they are except for two points. First, (and this really clears up the second one) make the probability of dropped sabers with them way higher, just as it would be in real life doing that kind of move. Second, get rid of the view locking. Since there's a higher probability of dropping it, it balances this out and makes it worthwhile to use.

razorace
03-06-2004, 04:28 AM
Maybe some way to reduce the autoblock probability is all I can think of. I personally think the parry working as an autoblock button requires considerably less skill than the manual blocking did. What if you made is so that the autoparry was only enabled for projectile weapons that you couldn't manually block in time?

Well, the main problem is that almost everyone that has play tested the mod wants to play with the saber animation speed up near normal base jka speed. At anything remotely that fast, manual blocking becomes too difficult.

Another question for you: what are you planning on doing with the specials/katas?

So far, I've removed the katas (will possibly re-add them later) and will replace their button combo (primary + secondary) with a counter attack system.

The idea being that you can parry an opponent into a knockaway and then use a counter attack on them to either knock them off their feet or knock them away so you can engage another target.

Master_Keralys
03-06-2004, 05:56 PM
Ah. Okay. See, personally, I found that having it at about .75 worked well even with the manual blocking, but there's not much way at full speed to use it, obviously. That's too bad; I think it required a great deal more skill and ability; certainly one had to modify one's tactics more from JA base...

I like the counterattack idea; I look forward to getting to play with that at some point in the future. I'll be interested to see what you do with the katas if and when you put them back in.

BloodRiot
03-09-2004, 09:28 AM
Well... after talking to razor i've been meaning to do some testing of my own. I just didn't find the time (or enough hard disk space to re-install JA for that matter).

But I will, and I'll probably be more helpful after that. I could dish out several opinions...but they would all be conjecture and theories, while most of you already have the feel of what OJP is really like right now.

One thing is for certain tho, If manual blocking can be done with some practice but not requiring an elite powergammer to be able to manage in a fight... then autoblocking should be kept to a minimum... since it seems likely that it will only serve to drag a fight and cause more trouble than it's porbably worth.

The only real doubt I have is how does one block blaster fire? This is probably the only type of autoblocking I find worthy of implementing.

I've been a lil out of the community so plz bear with me if i'm way behind on the subject.

Cheers

razorace
04-08-2004, 07:41 AM
Ok, well, I just came up with an idea that might make manual blocking more managable.

What if we made the manual blocking based on simple up/down left right quadrants? Basically instead of having to handle the 8+ quadrants of the current system, you'd have to worry about 4 positions. From there, the autoblock system would pick the correct quadrant from the availible quadrants.

If you do it correctly, you'll parry the attack. If not, you'll take a fatigue or dodge hit and simply block the attack.

It's skill based and not totally impossible to do ingame or code wise.

Noxrepere
04-08-2004, 08:34 AM
That sounds great!:)

It sounds like it could be a good balance of manual blocking and automatic without making it overly complicated, difficult, and unnatural. I'd definately try it out.

You mention the 4 quadrants for blocking. Does this include blocking on the sides and the back with the new animations keshire is making or are you just starting off with blocking in the front for simplicities sake to see how it plays out? (Just Curious)

Is this only for saber combat blocking? (That's my recommendation since I think it would be too difficult and too much of a hassle to have to block lasers manually in the quadrants. Predicting where they'll be and blocking a succession of lasers would be hard...)

keshire
04-08-2004, 09:12 AM
I'm thinking that goes without saying. We don't REALLY have "the force". So we can't be expected to block like it. :)

BloodRiot
04-08-2004, 09:18 AM
Razor.. you might have something going there.

I support that partial manual / partial auto blocking deal.

razorace
04-08-2004, 09:38 AM
It sounds like we might be onto something when we get 3 votes of support within about an hour of me posting it in a month dead thread. :)

7th, yeah, it would include every block grid in whatever direction you press. Well, the best way to think of this is like a rubik cube surrounding the player. With this system, by pressing a direction (left/right/up/down), the player would automatically move to block any attack coming in at any of those blocks on that face of the cube.

And, yes, this would only apply to saber combat, blaster blocking will have to be handled differently.

Oh, yeah, to be fair, Keshire thinks he might have thought of this first and I had just forgotten about it.

BloodRiot
04-08-2004, 09:42 AM
So basically if you defend upwards, you'd be covering the whole 9 top cubes... if you defend left... you'd cover all the left side cubes... and so forth.

One question tho.... you'll get 2 blind spots for defense... the forward center cube and the rear center cube.

What do you plan for those?

By the way.. about the back/rear blocking... i'm not sure what u have in mind for that... but why not make force sight interact with defense on that one? like you have to use at least one point fo force sight to actually being able to back block, and the more points you spend on sight... the more efficiently you back block... something. This would be without force costs or neglegible force costs compared to the fatigue or dodge meter drain you'd get for "being hit" from behind.

razorace
04-08-2004, 09:52 AM
Well, we're talking about it online right now. Aren't you on MSN messenger?

As for the blindspots they are a problem. The only solution that I can think of is to continuely doing transitional block moves in the hope that something connects.

However, it shouldn't really be a problem since all almost all the attacks come from side angles anyway.

As for back blocking, I think the easiest solution is to just make it more expensive to do (if you screw up). I'd rather not make it so where are force power requirements since that would mean that so people would just be totally open to attacks from behind.

Gotaiken
04-08-2004, 10:21 AM
i told razor about this before, but how about using some of the attack animations as blocking animations, you could cover more area, and you'd have a more precise blocking system.

razorace
04-08-2004, 06:04 PM
attack animations have the blade reaching out from the body. I don't think they would make very good block animations. However, if we make dedicated block transition animations, it would probably work.

JediLiberator
04-08-2004, 07:25 PM
would it be possible to "match" a blocking animation to each saber stroke of the same style? I.E. If your opponent makes an attack in yellow you make the "matching" defensive parry to block the blade so it hits about mid blade? Or is that too much animations work to be feasible?

razorace
04-08-2004, 09:16 PM
Well, there's two problems with that idea.

1. It would require a lot of animation work.
2. the player positions are not set in stone. There's zillion different possible positions for both the defender and attacker(s). Assuming for just one position would result in the blocks either looking weird or just not blocking.

Actually this is the system used by KotOR, but unfortunately, it just won't work unless you lock the player position. Which is somewhere I don't think we should go.

Master_Keralys
04-09-2004, 04:27 PM
Perfect!! This is exactly the kind of idea I've been waiting for. I wish I'd been on when this was originally posted, because it would have been 4 within an hour. That sounds like the best idea I've heard in ages for the saber combat system. And even at ridiculously high combat speeds it should still work.

Maybe with the blaster blocking it could be auto, but you'd get a deflection in direction of attacker bonus if you did manage to do manual blocks (I think this has been suggested before somewhere).

babywax
04-12-2004, 11:12 PM
For blaster blocking, maybe you could keep it manual if you added a "force sight" to blaster shots that shows where each bullet will go, so when you shoot you see a little line show up, which shows you the trajectory of the blaster shot.

ithriendusat
04-12-2004, 11:27 PM
I do not know if this is possible, but you could make manual blocking like in Jedi Power Battles where if you hold down the block button, it'll block most of them, and then if you time it right you can deflect a few back at the person who shot them. not sure how good this would be since most people shooting at jedi are on the move.

Lei Hng Wei
04-12-2004, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by ithriendusat
if you hold down the block button

This was already mentioned and is open to abuse. Why bother clicking when you can bind it to the capslock key.

Frank1212
04-15-2004, 09:15 PM
I've played OJP basic and enhanced and one thing that sorta bugs me is the crouch dodge when you get hit by a lightsaber. Is there anyway to incorporate a sniper dodge animation instead?

razorace
04-15-2004, 09:48 PM
It already does. It's just that solid hits cause you to go into a Dodge Roll. You can improve the chances of the normal dodgeing to occur by boosting the g_saberDmgDelay_Wound cvar value.

Frank1212
04-17-2004, 03:46 PM
Ah, I see. Just that I never see a sniper dodge happen.

Rad Blackrose
04-17-2004, 08:54 PM
Origonally, I was one of those people who were against manual blocking in JKII/JA...

Then I became a Soul Calibur II junkie and started messing around with the enhanced mod. Thanks for changing my viewpoints. ;)

Anyways, as far as blaster blocking is concerned, I agree with the angle Keralys is going: enable auto blocking, but if a person decides to use the autoblocking:

1.) the accuracy of deflection back to the origonal shooter should be less than what would occur if you used a manual block.

-To elaborate further, if a crosshair is on a gunner (I failed to mention, a person should be able to focus where his deflected gun fire should go through his crosshair. It would be highly unbalanced to have it just return to where it came from), and that gunner is firing AT the jedi, a manual block would have a much higher chance to return the weapons load directly to the crosshair's position rather than an auto block.

2.) Enable auto block of weapons fire for all modes of movement, but let there be higher chances for blocking the more stationary you are.

- If a person is standing still, technically he should have enough focus to block say... 90% of incoming fire (I'm making up random figures, don't quote me exactly). But as a person begins to speed up, his focus is lost in his movements, and thus his % to block lowers.

So thus, in auto block:

Stationary > Walking > Running

And just to reply to some things...

For blaster blocking, maybe you could keep it manual if you added a "force sight" to blaster shots that shows where each bullet will go, so when you shoot you see a little line show up, which shows you the trajectory of the blaster shot.

As interesting as that would sound, and it might encourage people to put points in FS (it should only work with force sight, by the way), I don't see how it would help at a long or short range situation.

razorace
04-18-2004, 04:20 AM
Sounds good, but how would we handle the manual blocking of saber bolts? I'm not sure people will be able to react fast enough to do it.

babywax
04-18-2004, 07:15 PM
Maybe slow down bolts just a little bit?
Maybe you could have any direction of manual blocking block bolts, but if you do it in a certain direction you're gauranteed to return fire to the sender.

razorace
04-18-2004, 07:23 PM
It's hard enough to hit people with the bolt speeds as is. Slowing them down would make things impossible for gunners.

babywax
04-18-2004, 07:56 PM
Good point.

Maybe you could have any direction of manual blocking block bolts, but if you do it in a certain direction you're gauranteed to return fire to the sender.

Would that work?

razorace
04-18-2004, 09:14 PM
I'm not exactly sure what is meant by that?

Lei Hng Wei
04-18-2004, 11:28 PM
Why not just bind thereisnospoon to a key and block in bullet-time slow-mo, without wasting Force on Speed?

Oh, did someone want a serious answer? :rolleyes:

Rad Blackrose
04-19-2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Sounds good, but how would we handle the manual blocking of saber bolts? I'm not sure people will be able to react fast enough to do it.

The way I'm thinking is some weapons are going to be easier to block than others. For example, I'll take the extremes: the Bryar and the Imperial Repeater. The bryar is a singe shot, and you can anticipate a charged shot rather easily. The imperial repeater is probably the fastest ROF weapon in the game, able to put out ammunition very fast.

A gunner in close range should be just as much a viable threat as a saberist. If a gunner is holding a repeater, he's going to be churning repeater bolts as fast as he can in a low distance situation. That saberist (should he choose to use manual block) shouldn't have enough reaction time to block ALL those bolts, and should be able to take some damage in that close distance provided the gunner's accuracy is true.

As for the bryar, it's a single shot charged pistol... Saberists would have an easier time on these targets than AOE/Automatic gunners, depending on range. If a saberist is at the same distance as he was against the repeater, it comes down to if the saberist can deflect the shot just right.

One of the biggest problems I had in 1.02/1.03 of JKII was the fact that practically all bullets, including the repeater, were deflected/blocked. Thus the heavy dependance on AOE weapons, such as the Repeater's secondary fire. Personally, I think all modes of fire should be viable, and the person just has to pick a weapon of preference. Of course, now this is just crossing over to other weapons. Sorry :o

razorace
04-19-2004, 06:53 PM
Uh, I meant the actual manual blocking, not the chances of it happening. Anyway, I agree for the most part, but I think it should be related to how often you're blocking instead of the particular weapon used, except for maybe bolt speed.

Personally, I think it would be better to just remove the non-blaster weapons, or make them so expensive that only super mercs have them.

MOTL Robinton
04-23-2004, 12:59 AM
Hi everyone. I've been following the progress of the mod for over a month now and I have to say, its amazing. However, and please forgive me if this has all been said and explained before, I have a few questions about how to use the new saber systems.

1. I don't seem to be hitting anyone or anything and I can in no way kill any NPC or BOT. When swinging, my saber "bounces" off from the direction I was swinging. There is also no bounce effect other than my saber moving in a different direction than I wanted it to. By bounce effect, i mean an actual spark or lighting effect. If this was not to be included yet, then ok. If not, I seem to have a problem.

2. Is there a way to manually dodge? If so, then how? And I seem to get the sense there are different types of dodges. If so, when do they occur? Are they more random than they are reactive to elements in the combat?

Basically, I'm just wondering what are the core cvars I need to be looking at in terms of modifying the actual gameplay. The saber combat portion I mean. I haven't tried everything yet, but i figured if I post here, I might find out faster.

I am in no way upset or frustrated with the system at all. Even if its not working properly on my system for whatever reason, the intent and new features are there and are very well done.

Thanks for your time.

razorace
04-23-2004, 02:07 AM
I beleive most of that stuff is covered in the ojp_sabersys.txt.

The saber bouncing is an effect to prevent saber passthru unless the saber actually killed the player.

MOTL Robinton
04-23-2004, 05:59 PM
Thanks. I ran through the cvar list and found everything I needed there and its working %100 perfect now. Really amazing.

Just one more quick question. I'm having trouble getting saber throw to work at all. I know it is supposed to be included in the force menu but i can't see to find it or know exactly what its called so i can bind it. In the documentation is says "+button12" but i'm not really sure what button that would be. I know how to bind stuff, just looking for what to call it or how to go about binding it properly.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

-Robinton

MOTL Robinton
04-23-2004, 06:52 PM
nevermind, I got it. Thanks anways. :D

Lei Hng Wei
04-23-2004, 09:00 PM
Uh, mind telling us? I can't get it to work either. :(

lazoras
04-25-2004, 08:39 PM
i dont want this mod turned into a noob fest kinda thing. for example the katas and butterflies. i dont think very many people know how frustrating it is to be a really good saberist and lose a duel because your aponnent did nothing but butterflies or katas.

also these extra saber styles i heard about. alot of people didnt like JediMod back in JO because it had the purple and pink saber styles wich were jokes really. the moves were so uneralistic.

i think it would be better to add to the game but preserve the heart of the game (the saber).
ive been playing since the day JO came out. and the JA saber handling really annoys me. there are so many things that i try to do but are impossible because of JA's source code where as in JO it was almost limitless. i say almost because i could never jump narshada in one jump :( always took 2.

and i dont think manual saber blocking is a good way to go because what is keeping a person from just blocking? and i know from experience it is easier yet more boring to play defensive when fighting. and its extreemly annoying for the oposing player. manual blocking is like said above. dodging. i dodge all the time, and find that it is hard enough to make my yellow style connect when peeps are just standing there (especialy staff and dual).
one thing i do think would be cool is do have staff be able to use the front, back or both blades. and make yellow style staff be able to do a power move like dual's blue style can do lunge.

wrong spot for this but can you make a male twelik that can customize skin color (lots of peeps i see running around as female tweliks just so they can change their skin color)

oh yeah. here is another idea.
can you make it so when a person reaches 0 hp they fall to the ground like they are dead but must be finished off. if they arent finished off they lay there for a while maybe 5-10 seconds and then start to get up slowly (as if dieing) and they have like 30 seconds to get some hp or their hp slowly regains like healing themselves 1 hp per minute or something (cant use force while laying down) that way there if you just want to defend yourself or put someone in their place you can without killing them.

lazoras
04-25-2004, 08:45 PM
oh yeah. plz keep in mind that this mod is intended to be the unofficial patch for JA.

lazoras
04-25-2004, 09:39 PM
ok i just tested teh enhanced beta and i must say im rather disapointed. i would rather use JA moves 1.8 right now.

swinging the saber shouldnt take force. and the auto dodging thing...that annoys me because a hit should be a hit. plus it takes forever to kill 1 person not to mention if they run away it is impossible because their dodging force thing regens. plus they can manauly dodge by moving around the old fashioned way and the saber swings are just unrealisticaly slow my friend and i are old school JO players. neither of us took any damage and we dueld for 30 mintues straight. the extra two saber styles were a pain because i couldnt switch the style i wanted fast enough. plus weapons (guns) have a huge advantage over the saber now. i dont think i would want to play a game that takes 30 mins to kill someone. keep the traditional stuff but add to the game. a painting can be ruined with a single stroke too much.

razorace
04-25-2004, 09:43 PM
You don't have to remind me what the project is about. I created the project.

Anyway, the knockout idea. I remember thinking about that for a while but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort or work out. Causing people to be disabled without being able to do anything for a long period of time would probably frustrate players. It might be an interesting idea for an NPC or team gametypes thou.

If you don't want gameplay modifications, just use OJP Basic or stick to admin mods.

lazoras
04-26-2004, 06:40 AM
im sry for saying that, but i was kinda excited about the mod but when i tested it i didnt like it as much after playing a couple hours. if you want this mod to be popular enough so that it replaces JA moves and almost everyone who plays JA has your mod than im in the right spot but if your just going for changing JA than im sry for bothering you guys.

like i said. i suggested wall hanging to JA when it was being made. when i heard of your wall hanging i was very interested. is there anyway you can add some emotes and some admin powers and things to the basic one?...kinda like a mix of JA moves accept with all the fixes and what not. i know its possible and i know it would be a big hit. but i dont know if anyone really wants to do it. (most modders arent very good at the game but love to change it) as an experienced player but not a modder i thaught i could bring another aspect to your mod.

sry for bothering you,

Samuel Dravis
04-26-2004, 07:05 AM
As far as I know, there will be no admin powers at all. They cause too much trouble. There may be some admin helper commands, but no 'empowerment' etc.

razorace
04-26-2004, 08:54 AM
There are two admin functions that were ported in with Asteroids code but that's it. Beyond that, its just the baseJKA admin stuff, which is basically all you need anyway. Basically everything else beyond that is just crap or abusive admin commands.

Secondly, the purpose of OJP is not to be the OMNIMod/JediMod++/JA Moves of JKA. If we were out to do that, we'd been dumping out releases back in the JK2 before JA Moves was a twinkle in Slider's eye.

Besides, we gotta make some serious changes to justify the 12+ mg file for the new animations.

Gotaiken
04-26-2004, 09:06 AM
laz, calm down razor is working hard to get everything up to par, trust me, issues you speak of are being dealt with, i trust his judgment, if you want to be able to hit someone, do g_dodgeregen 3000, and if you want a more comfortable force setting do g_forceregen 200, a lot has to be done and a lot more still to be tested.

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 08:37 AM
Hello again everyone. Ever since the start of this mod ive seen a great potential for it, razor is a great coder, and a very resourceful guy and has done some stuff in what is said to be a beta, that others havent done in their final projects for mods. However, he is just one person and though there is a team a few people lack the sum of suggestions that a lot of people can give. Whats more is that there arent enough people (in my opinion) voicing their opinions on what should be done, and what they would like implemented.

Now this is gonna be a very, very, long read... BUT GUESS WHAT??? YOU WANT TO READ IT, CAUSE I SAID YOU WANT TO READ IT, lol... but seriously, YOU WANT TO READ IT... cause deep down inside for whatever reason, you know you should... rflmao

However, before i start there are a few things we need to get cleared up straight of the bat.

1. Whether or not any of youd like to believe this, there is ONE FACT that we all KNOW stands true, there is absolutely, positively, undeniably, no point in making this type of mod, something of this greatness, of this calibur, if NO ONE PLAYS IT!!!

We have to deal with this mod in the same fashion that a company would deal with their product. COMMERCIALLY. Case and point, end of conversation, discussion over. Now, what your asking yourself is, "What's the best way of dealing with a product of this type?"

Here's your answer...

By making a product that gives your audience something no one else has, then after that, endorcing it out the wazoo, giving it a great extent of quality, and then, when they like it, when they love it, when they need to play it more than anything else... then, what do you do... you turn around, smiling from ear to ear, slowly raise your hand, lowering all but one finger towards the competion... and GIVE IT SOME F-ING FLARE!!!

lol

anyways...

I dont know about the rest of you, but i want to see this suceed, and you know why? Cause I want to PLAY IT, thats why, and guess what, I WANT TO PLAY IT WITH PEOPLE, i want it to be popular, to be the talk of the online town, to be the next best thing since electricty damnit. I want it to be liked... no, I WANT IT TO BE LOVED!!! So there are REQUIRED measures that everyone involved with this project, and everyone who wants to play this mod, are gonna have to take.

1. Voice your opinions, there is no way in having a game that everyone plays, if its based of off shotty ideas, or thoughts only formulized and agreed on by a small percentage of people, tell razor what you think, you never know... that little budding idea in your head just might blossom into flower of success.

2. This goes for all the people involved with making this possible.
A. Focus on the things that are gonna make the game better, and/or add a gameplay element to the mod way before you focus on the side stuff.

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 08:40 AM
B. Be prepared to add flare... AND GUESS WHY... I bet you wanna know... heres why, CHANGE, yup CHANGE. People dont want to change, they've gotten their nice little cozy system of play down pact, and they dont want to change it. Change is the top one thing that humans reject. Change is diffrent, change is uncomfortable, change is hard, change means work, change means adapting to a new set of things. No one wants to CHANGE...BUT YOU DO... and you wanna know why, cause you know that you can make this game GREAT, and the easiest way to accept change is to find something better in that change then in the system you were previously dealing with.

C. So its a no brainer... FLARE, we NEED flare. Adding flare to the mod will defintely attract more people, the more things that make the mod prettier the more people will initially try to stick with it.Since you guys are going to change the way the game works, people need an insentive to stick with it long enough to get use to the change they have to make. And once they've had time to realize that they've stumbled onto something better, then the flare will keep them from going back to base jka, so the only time they'll be going to base jka will be to tell thier friends to get their arses into OJP.

D. Word of mouth, if you test OJP then tell your friends to, the more people that get familiar with a good system the more people that play it, people need acceptance from their peers to do a lot of things. If your friend told you it was good you have more of a chance of trying it out then just hearing about it randomly, the more people that people know playing, the easier it is for those people to want to play.

3. To appeal to the audience they seek the creators of this project MUST keep this in mind. You can change the way it works, you can fix it up, BUT YOU CANNOT take away what already attracts people to the game, what attracts people to the game (other than the fact you get a freakin light saber... Comon A FREAKING LIGHT SABER... lol) is the speed, visual effects, the intensity, skill requirement, customization, (what other fighting game can you make up moves that are just as special as the specials from normal attacks) and overall fun factor. These are things that you cannot take away, for everyone of these that you try to replace you'll have to bring in 2 things just as good to compensate for all the whining people just waiting to find a reason to not convert. (so just to keep all that hard work as easy as possible dont do anything that would remove one of these) On another note, increasing any of these factors will undoubtebly draw and keep more people that play the mod.

K... Now that that's out of the way, without further adue, here's what YOU'VE ALL BEEN WAITING TO READ....

(by the way i think i have a compulsive disorder that makes me want to do things to such degrees, as this long a$$ post clearly concludes in showing) lol

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 08:41 AM
A. BLOCKING

This is clearly a terrible problem, it is controllable in base to an extent but it is not reliable enough or effective enough to count on.

Razor originally had a pretty perfect auto blocking code (if i may say so myself) however the autoblocking was too perfect and always stopped attacks, and at the same time would often interupt an attack that the user may have initiated. Since this became the case he created the block button. With this new block button you have to control when you block, but there's a problem with it. When you hold the block button, whatever it is that searches for attacks will try to block whatever attack is in play at that precice time, with no regards to timing, so if your holding the block button and someone attacks it will initiate the block at the start of the attack and when the 1st block animation ends it will start up another to try to block what may still be the same attack. The first system didnt do this, so what i was thinking is, how about we take the best of both worlds.

In effect what im saying is, you press the block button and for 5seconds you go on the auto block of the previous system without having to worry about timing, technically you still initiated the block (making it skill oriented) but whatever ai it is that does the autoblocking blocks for you, so you dont have to worry about timing (especially since all of the lag and what not) and only have to worry about recognizing when you need to block (which is the extent of skill that blocking should be anyways) when the 5 seconds or however long the decision is to make it ends, the blocking period is over.

What someone i was talking to suggested is that when moving forward during a block you get a increased chance of a parry, when pressing back your chance of succesfully blocking goes up more.

Crouching should have a penalty with blocking. Running should have a penalty with parries and boost with back blocking, walking should have a boost with parries and penalty with back blocking.

B. PARRIES (THE BIGGEST MIX UP IN THE WORLD)

Guess what, your WRONG... yup your wrong. Parries arent the attack that you get during the blocking animation, (single red users know what im talking about) nope, thats not a parry. A parry is when you knock your opponent into a saber knockaway. (knockaways dont always happen from just parries by the way) Razor explained this to me and I just thought I'd let everyone know before people came with their "parry" ideas. What you thought was a parry was just an attack that occured from a block (because block animations are so short when its over, as long as your holding attack your saber will launch an attack depending on where it is at the time) animation.

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 08:44 AM
C. SABER STYLES

a.All

Faster style transistion ie. JKO

Time for turning during turn moves needs to be lowered, shouldnt drag out, should be fluid like real life

All walking swings faster with less cool down time

All Katas should be cancelable (with a penalty to dodge of course)

b. Blue

Diagnal swings either need to be slowed down or replaced, (between yellow and red animations) because they are very hard to hit with

Blocked less

Stronger Defense (might not need it with new system)

Swing Cap at 8-10

A DFA

Fix foward attack for duals

c. Yellow

Back Diagnal swings need to be slowed down a little to add range

Diffrent DFA

Swing Cap at 6

Fix forward attack for staff

d. Red

Be able to go from any direction to any direction

Sped up on transitions

Sped up on start time

Lower cool down time

Swing Cap at 6

After 2 of the same attack, turn attack

e. Duals

Swing Cap at 6

Turn times for turn moves needs to be sped up

f. Staff

Butterfly needs to be dealt with some how

Side butterflies are fine

Swing Cap at 6

Slower

Longer

Turn moves needed faster turn (staff turn moves are the only ones that are fine as is, but since its gonna be slower, they are gonna need to be faster)

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 08:45 AM
D. WALKING, RUNNING, AND CROUCHING

Running should be main method of movement, as to appeal to the masses (keeping walking is not only less fun, but less intense, and slower, 3 things people dont want)

Running should be suseptable (sorry for spelling error, here or anyway for that matter) to knockdowns, but not as much as it is now

Running back and sideways should be slower, walking is walking there should be no speed change for any direction (if i can run faster backwards than i can walk forward then i can walk just as fast back as forth)

Rolling should be easier done, rolling back should be able to be done from standing, with a force cost or dodge cost (maybe a double direction tap while holding crouch could be rolling)

There should be a quick movement option, the standing version of a roll, a rush for running, and a smaller dash for walking (a double tap of a direction, and yes razor i know it means buffering lol)

E. OOO LOOK MOMMY... A BUTTERFLY

How about this, the specials (ie. twirl, butterfly, lunge) could be done by doing a kata press plus a directional press. So for duals press secondary fire and attack plus up does the dual butterfly, pressing back does the twirl, etc. etc. We up the force required to do them all, and everyones happy. One another note doing the normal secondary attack and attack with no direction press would initiate a "combo" power up or something, after which you could customize your kata. You wouldnt have to hold attack youd just press the directional buttons and youd get yourself a nice 10-12 hit combo, during this time your saber speed goes up, and then you go pwn you some jedi. lol. What we can do with the dfa's now free button combo is make up attack jump, a sort of low level flip jump (costing force of course) that you'd guide and launch some attacks on the way. Pressing back and jump attack would be some sort of escape. (we all know the backflip doesnt always help, and this would cost force of course)

F. SO PEOPLE DONT SAY "I HATE THIS MOD I GOT ROLLED OFF A CLIFF AND I DIDNT WANT TO!!!!"

Force dodge is seemingly a problem on everyones list. Whether or not the roll is fixed, people dont want their nicely placed hits going to waste, with the proposed blocking system there are enough tools for players to properly defend themselves. What i suggest is that somehow we make this remotely controllable. I dont know how, but damnit I've done enough thinking for the day, you guys figure it out, Im done, time to get some rest.

READ THE WHOLE POST lol

keshire
05-09-2004, 09:38 AM
I admire your persistance. But the audience your talking about isn't the audience we're catoring to.

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 03:29 PM
then whats the point of even trying if your not trying to havve a lot of people play the mod, its like a pointless wasting of effort, there is no point in making something good if no one but a select few enjoy it.

Lei Hng Wei
05-09-2004, 03:54 PM
I enjoy it.

Ya know, in the time it took to read your posts, they could of finished. Stop wasting their time insulting them and let them get back to work. Hell, take a break OJP. Go out for icecream or a game of dodgeball.

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 05:11 PM
.......... insulting them, rflmao

just so you know, razor told me to post the collective ideas that everyone in game gave me (why wouldnt you want the people who want to play, to like what they play)

Lei Hng Wei
05-09-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Gotaiken
then whats the point of even trying if your not trying to havve a lot of people play the mod, its like a pointless wasting of effort, there is no point in making something good if no one but a select few enjoy it.

Oh yeah, that isn't insulting whatsoever. :rolleyes:

babywax
05-09-2004, 07:39 PM
then whats the point of even trying if your not trying to havve a lot of people play the mod, its like a pointless wasting of effort, there is no point in making something good if no one but a select few enjoy it.

They're making it for themselves, it's not like they're here to serve you.

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 08:42 PM
OMG you really dont know what your talking about, ummm... excuse me but i recall razor telling me to post what i had asked (FROM OTHER PEOPLE) in game to what they would like better in the mod, (THIS IS THE PLACE TO VOICE YOUR OPINION) and he ASKED me to post it here rather than just tell him, because he wanted everyone else to hear it so they could judge the ideas and add their own, I didnt mean to sound rude, i just wanted more people to get involved to help razor out. (you might have an idea he would like dont keep it to yourself)

I am in no way insulting him, (HE TOLD ME TO POST) so please dont assume that I am, sorry for anyone who felt i was being rude, but I'm trying to be as polite as I can, while still making a valid arguement. I dont know about any of you but I know I may just be the only one who wanted to get teams of people to test. (Because I like the mod and where its going, but as someone who plays the game, and mostly with others, I often tell Razor my input, and he has asked me to post my ideas along with those in game)

So please dont go around assuming I'm insulting anyone cause, not to be rude but I'm quite sure that I may have had more input and ideas regarding this Mod (that i've personally been telling Razor) than a lot of other people, so please dont try to disregard me as someone who doesnt care about the mod.

Maybe you may not like this mod as much as I do (not saying you dont) but I like it to the point that I'd rather not have it like the rest... NEVER SUPPORTED, how can you blame a player who sees something good and wants to PLAY it with OTHER PEOPLE, for wanting to help it grow in any way that will forward the quality and strengthen the amount of people playing it.

Basically what you seem to be saying (sorry if I'm wrong, I appologize if I'm offending you) is that you dont mind if people that play the mod give their ideas, but when they start to take it seriously and want to see it grow in a way that still perserves the quality (and overall vision, which is to make better saber combat) and at the same time attracts more people to play it, (dont know about you but I play this game, for multiplayer) is the the wrong way in thinking.

One question...

WHY

Im sure that you can make it a good chanllenging experience and a great fun having experience at the same time, but before I conclude, may i ask you, why you thought I was being insulting, and what exactly did I say to make you feel this way.

Gotaiken
05-09-2004, 08:45 PM
O by the way, when I asked people what they wanted, they told me that they wanted something good enough that it could be popular, so that they could play it with other people. They want it to be good. Point blanc. Razor asked me to post both my ideas and theirs, that was one of theirs, dont be mad at me cause you future audience wants something that will want them to be your future audience... LOL wow you guys are funny.

razorace
05-10-2004, 02:29 AM
Ok, guys, let's not get defensive here, we're all here to make the mod better, even if our opinions differ.

Yes, I did ask Gota to post here instead of MSNing everything to me. I'd prefer to have a group discussion instead of something solo. Plus, I've been damn busy lately trying to juggle my two current jobs and do OJP stuff at the same time. That's a lot of plates to spin, so I can't really afford to be distracted by Gota's suggestioning in real time.

Secondly, we are doing this for fun and for ourselves. If I wanted to be popular, I'd mod for Battlefield or Half-Life or create JKA^3, the admin mod to kill all other admin mods by not sucking. That being said, I would like to have people play and enjoy our mod, simply because the more the merrier.

As such, what do you mean by flare? Are you like talking better graphics/maps or like high profile game additions like bots that can play siege or ledge grab?

And, finally, Gota, please try to keep your comments more on topic instead of jumping off onto tangents, you literally took two posts to even get to your suggestions.

Gotaiken
05-10-2004, 04:06 PM
lol, what i meant by flare wasnt making graphics better, i meant stuff like ledge grabbing, the new bots etc.

The main reason i wanted more people to play is cause itd be fun to play ojp with a lot of people all the time, rather than a few people some of the time.

From what I gathered, people wouldnt mind playing it as long as they had a good reason to do so, basically what they said is that if you can make sabering better everyone would at least try the mod once. They just wanted that first time to hook them. Having something better is what we all want, I'm not saying that the creators should bend to everyone's will and compromise what they want, but I do think that they should get input from more people so that they can have a few new views. What you want is what they want, they just want you to give it to them.

Razor fixed the collision checks, that alone is something that EVERYONE wants, force dodge is something else that EVERYONE wants, they just want it controllable so that some skill to some degree is behind using it.

The product is there, the public just wants to help make it better.

Again I did mention the compulsive disorder I think I have, lol (when i get focused on something and serious about it, I go ALL OUT)

Gotaiken
05-10-2004, 04:11 PM
Anyways enough of that, lets get back to the suggestions, someone told me about a game called die by the sword (i think) and said the control was better, does anyone know what that was and if it is possible.

O and razor what was your mouse sabering idea again, sounded pretty good but dont remember details.

razorace
05-11-2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Gotaiken
Anyways enough of that, lets get back to the suggestions, someone told me about a game called die by the sword (i think) and said the control was better, does anyone know what that was and if it is possible.

O and razor what was your mouse sabering idea again, sounded pretty good but dont remember details.

Trust me, I played Die by the Sword and while it technically gave you more control, the control system was so sloppy that you lost more than you gained.

As for mouse sabering, I've explained it multiple times. Use the forum search feature to something on it. You could also try searching the Masters of the Force forums as well.

Razor fixed the collision checks, that alone is something that EVERYONE wants, force dodge is something else that EVERYONE wants, they just want it controllable so that some skill to some degree is behind using it.

Beyond whining about it and/or suggesting that it be made a button (which is so impractical that I'm not even going to talk about it), I've yet to here any suggestions on how to fix it.

Gotaiken
05-11-2004, 04:03 AM
lol, how about making it so that it costs in dodge, however much hp the hit takes. So if you get a 50 hp hit, you lose 50 dodge, but then dodge needs to be slowed down.

razorace
05-11-2004, 03:04 PM
Well, I tried that before in MotF. It works ok, but I felt the damage was inconsistant enough that it made judging how much Dodge you had felt impossible.

Secondly, what exactly do you mean by "slower"?

Gotaiken
05-11-2004, 10:21 PM
You shouldnt be judging dodge if its a free escape that you dont have to worry about applying, unless its skillfully used it should just be a "thank god, i thought i was screwed" sort of thing.

And by slowed down i mean the bar, the dodge bar should regenerate slower, but we can do that already.

razorace
05-12-2004, 04:20 AM
I don't think you understood what I meant. The idea is that dodge should be a constant measure of how much flak you can take before you die.

With the direct damage to dodge system, I felt that wasn't the case. In addition, it was not realistic since, while a missile does a lot of damage, the difficult to dodge (at least a direct hit) is probably about the same as dodging a speeding saber.

Gotaiken
05-12-2004, 05:40 AM
true, very true, then how about 50 per dodge, something high enough so that breaking through someones dodge doesnt become the main part of sabering, and ive never seen any of the jedi do that in the movies.

razorace
05-12-2004, 05:47 AM
It's already set to 30. The thing is that we haven't touched the saber damage system or completed the block system either. Give it time.

keshire
05-12-2004, 05:50 AM
I still need to add in block positions to cover a greater area. Thats the main reason they get through right now I beleive. Its also the reason why the saber spazzes so bad when blocking gun shots.

Gotaiken
05-13-2004, 04:38 AM
well i just got finished play MB2 for the first time, and i got some ideas.

How about you use that defensive offensive mode they implemented.

You hold down block and you go to walking speed, defense goes up, etc etc.

Also you could use the stamina bar as well as the dodge bar, or one or the other, instead of having force go down when you attack, it takes from stamina. Only when your in block mode can you get to dodge, and each dodge costs half the bar.

razorace
05-13-2004, 07:23 AM
stamina = Force = fatigue as is. Do I really need to change the HUD icon to show that?

kusanagi
05-14-2004, 09:16 PM
I've been a big fan of Mtof in the JO days, but I haven't gotten the chance to tried out any of the OJP stuff yet, so i aplogize if this seems like a stupid question....
since the movment of the upper body is affected by mouse look, the angle, height and position of the attack will come out differently as well, now from what i've read about the saber blocking system, the blocking/parrying animation is based on the type of attack, eg left swing, digianol swing etc right? so wouldn't it look strange if some one is doing a side swing while looking down and the other person is blocking by holding his/her saber to the left/right side but absolutly misses?

Actually this is the system used by KotOR, but unfortunately, it just won't work unless you lock the player position. Which is somewhere I don't think we should go.

wouldn't it be better if you do lock the player position??

razorace
05-14-2004, 09:44 PM
Well, if we did that, you'd just be attached to the other player while taking swings at each other. I don't think a good idea outside of saberlocks and grapples.

Gotaiken
05-16-2004, 03:34 PM
razor what determines what the specific attack is after the block animation.

razorace
05-16-2004, 03:55 PM
It's based on whatever block position you're in.

Gotaiken
05-16-2004, 04:03 PM
can you change the way its done (so you dont have to press attack after block to do it)

razorace
05-16-2004, 04:12 PM
Sure, I think I could do it.

Gotaiken
05-16-2004, 06:27 PM
well i got an idea but it depends on whether or not your willing to change the blocking system.

razorace
05-16-2004, 11:35 PM
It's already been established that I'm planning on changing the blocking system.

Gotaiken
05-17-2004, 02:38 PM
yay, ok ill have my idea up in a sec, thinking it out.

Gotaiken
05-20-2004, 12:31 PM
Sabering system

Saber control Method

Offense

Normal attack
How to do? = tap attack
What Happens = you attack normally

Combo
How to do? = hold attack along with the proper directional keys
What Happens = you combo

Stop Attack
How to do? = tap attack during an attack
What Happens = you stop the attack

Turn attack
How to do? = Hold the action button (like it is now)
What Happens = you turn from your attack by pivoting into another attack

Defense

Block
How to do? = hold the alt attack button
What Happens = you hold out your saber trying to block incoming attacks, by determining skill, how far away the saber is in relation with your body, speed at which your moving forward as a negative, speed at which you move back as a positive, crouching is a negative, walking is a positive, running is a negative (though running back is a positive), jumping is a slight negative

Dodge
How to do? = if you didnít get the block even though you tried you have a chance to dodge, based on skill and whether or not you have the dodge to do the dodge. The dodge payment is a 4th of the damage.

Manual Defense Counter
How to do? = After a blocking animation the ability to attack presents itself, simply tap attack after a block
What Happens = you attack out of the blocking animation (gotta enable the ability to do all attacks out of any blocking animation)

razorace
05-20-2004, 03:34 PM
So, exactly what would be be granting over the current system?

AzureAngel
05-20-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Gotaiken
Sabering system

Saber control Method

Offense

Normal attack
How to do? = tap attack
What Happens = you attack normally

Combo
How to do? = hold attack along with the proper directional keys
What Happens = you combo

Stop Attack
How to do? = tap attack during an attack
What Happens = you stop the attack

Turn attack
How to do? = Hold the action button (like it is now)
What Happens = you turn from your attack by pivoting into another attack

Defense

Block
How to do? = hold the alt attack button
What Happens = you hold out your saber trying to block incoming attacks, by determining skill, how far away the saber is in relation with your body, speed at which your moving forward as a negative, speed at which you move back as a positive, crouching is a negative, walking is a positive, running is a negative (though running back is a positive), jumping is a slight negative

Dodge
How to do? = if you didnít get the block even though you tried you have a chance to dodge, based on skill and whether or not you have the dodge to do the dodge. The dodge payment is a 4th of the damage.

Manual Defense Counter
How to do? = After a blocking animation the ability to attack presents itself, simply tap attack after a block
What Happens = you attack out of the blocking animation (gotta enable the ability to do all attacks out of any blocking animation)


Now I dont know much coding but this seems like it would be more trouble than its worth. although dodging is a good Idea you would need new animations for different kinds of dodges.

Gotaiken
05-20-2004, 03:54 PM
lolololol

this is basically how the system already is, no real coding to do, just switch a few things around.

Gotaiken
05-20-2004, 04:47 PM
can you make the saber at all times deadly, no matter what, cause during the spinning right turn of the staff, when the saber is spun, that should be able to hit something.

razorace
05-20-2004, 05:04 PM
Yes, but that would piss people off.

I've discovered during the course of gameplay, the saber blades tend to touch other players weither you like it or not. Normally they are just nicks due to the way the animation don't deform in real time due to physics (that's something that beyond the scope of the current engine).

In fact, this occurs subtly enough that the players never notice unless they are really paying attention.

Anyway, the point is that the we can't make the saber lethal 100% of the time since these nick hits would instantly kill other players.

Gotaiken
05-20-2004, 05:12 PM
then can you make just those type of animations attackable. its only a few of them.

razorace
05-20-2004, 05:22 PM
attackable?

Gotaiken
05-20-2004, 05:35 PM
so that the turning animation counts as an attack animation so that the spinning saber can hit something

razorace
05-20-2004, 06:22 PM
turning animations? wha?

Gotaiken
05-20-2004, 07:13 PM
play the game, get a staff, hold right and attack, the part where the saber is spinning in the air, that should be hittable.

razorace
05-20-2004, 08:13 PM
Right, well, I beleive that's already the case.

Gotaiken
05-21-2004, 05:12 PM
just thought about this one, the turning speed (all sabers) can you up it, to make the turning more fluid like a real turn.

also i was thinking about making some sort of pivoting attack possible, not sure if it can be done, but just a thought.

razorace
05-21-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Gotaiken
just thought about this one, the turning speed (all sabers) can you up it, to make the turning more fluid like a real turn.

I agree there, the spin animations do need to be sped up.

Gotaiken
05-22-2004, 11:57 AM
big request razor, can you add all the sabering stuff, like sped up turning animations, tweak the indivdual saber speeds, etc. in the next build, im not sure on the coding but i think that things like that should be the easiest to do.

Gotaiken
05-22-2004, 12:08 PM
the reason i ask is because its the quickest way to boost up the beta, and itll give all the testers a feel of how the game will be, that way people can voice their opinions on what needs to be changed and such.

Its also easier than adding all the other non important stuff (ledge grabbing) and the essentials (in my opinion) should be focused on first. And the most essential is the way the sabers are handled, and you can change them the quickest.

Another idea i had was, can you make cvars for the indivdual attacks, regarding their speed, and each tester could make their changes and we all post are collective opinions as to what the actual speeds should be. (this isnt really that important, just an idea)

razorace
05-22-2004, 03:21 PM
Its also easier than adding all the other non important stuff (ledge grabbing) and the essentials (in my opinion) should be focused on first. And the most essential is the way the sabers are handled, and you can change them the quickest.

We do things based on what we feel like working on. Secondly, the saber system is a massive undertaking, so expecting it "done" in the next release is pretty unreasonable.

The reason I started working on the ledgegrab was because Keshire had figured out the animations system and we needed a test bed to make sure it worked. In addition, other people were actually contributing material, that's a pretty big deal so those types of projects normally take presidence.

Another idea i had was, can you make cvars for the indivdual attacks, regarding their speed, and each tester could make their changes and we all post are collective opinions as to what the actual speeds should be. (this isnt really that important, just an idea)

Nope, we're not XMod. :) However, I might occasionally provide a test cvar or two to allow people to tweak things.

Gotaiken
05-22-2004, 03:34 PM
I understand that expected a completed mod is unreasonable. :D

Its just that I feel that doing the basics, since they can be done the fastest and easiest, should be the number 1 priority, you could tweak the saber speeds, turn speed etc in a relatively very short time.

Other request, can you give me a url to the enhanced mod, i deleted mine by accident and wiped the recycle bin later in the day. :rolleyes:

You could do the saber speeds and turn speeds then. ;)

Samuel Dravis
05-22-2004, 04:16 PM
The Enhanced distro is up at the website (http://ojp.jediknight.net).

Gotaiken
05-28-2004, 03:48 PM
movie battles blocking system is much more effecient then the current one in ojp, i say we use that.

Gotaiken
05-28-2004, 03:59 PM
after some vigorious playtesting i must honestly say that the mb2 blocking is much more effecient.

Gotaiken
06-02-2004, 09:10 PM
any thoughts...

razorace
06-02-2004, 11:08 PM
Ok, my opinion is as follows.

The Good:

- I like the way you can either manually set block position or have what basically is an autoblock. However, even with the autoblock = walking concept, there doesn't seem to be a need to have autoblock be a seperate button. You could just have it be whenever you're walking.
- The blocks don't have the spaz saber condition of the OJP system. I'm guessing this is due to the block system having a different block radius but I don't really know.
- I like the look of the micro lock stuff.
- I also like the attempt at getting the players to not just spam attacking. However, since there doesn't seem to be an disadvantage to losing all your BP, I don't think it's really done yet.

The Bad:

- There doesn't seem to be much benefit to manually blocking at least in it's current form.

- micro lock don't seem to lock the players in place so it makes it looks like their animations are just jammed.

The Ugly:

- For some weird reason, I keep seeing bots teleport around occasionally when they get hit.

Gotaiken
06-03-2004, 12:33 AM
how bout this, auto block is always on, for cosmetic reasons. if a saber touches your saber but doesnt do any damage you block. with proper microlocking this will look nice. the walking concept makes sense and should be used.

manual blocking is pointless so take it out.

Gotaiken
06-03-2004, 12:41 AM
btw i was thinking, if you make z targetting you could do mouse sabering pretty easily.

Dacks
06-03-2004, 02:30 AM
Well in the System's defense :D :

- There doesn't seem to be much benefit to manually blocking at least in it's current form.
With Manual Blocking you can disarm the opponent of his/her saber. During battles, losing your saber mostly means dead.

- For some weird reason, I keep seeing bots teleport around occasionally when they get hit.
True, this happens with bots. I would suggest playing it online, as that's where it truly comes to it's justice. Players do not perform the same ''teleporting'' as bots do. And it is intended to be played online afterall.

RenegadeOfPhunk
06-03-2004, 06:40 AM
However, even with the autoblock = walking concept, there doesn't seem to be a need to have autoblock be a seperate button. You could just have it be whenever you're walking.


The main consideration here is button placement. The control system needs to work when playing either gunner or Jedi.
When playing as a gunner, you dont' want walk as one of the mouse buttons (this is discounting people with 3-7 button mice - I think it's safe to say the average buttons are 2...). So walk will be a keyboard key most likely...

The most natural place for the 'block' button as a Jedi, however, is the right mouse button. Trying to manipulate the walk keyboard button and the directional keys during an intense duel adds unnessesary complication...

And at the end of the day, our use of the right mouse button for saber defense has not caused one complaint. People have no problem having saber throw on another key - so I think this point is pretty mute anwyay...


However, since there doesn't seem to be an disadvantage to losing all your BP, I don't think it's really done yet.


You can still defend yourself even with no BP's. BP's are really more accurately a backup - i.e. if you miss a block, your BP's can save you and therefore prolong the duel a little bit.
They can also allow you to have a limited block ability while running.

But the fact is if someone was able to block exceptionally well (with block button held), that player would be able to survive without BP's for quite a bit.
..and of course this does still cut down spam attacking since to block without BP's, you HAVE to use your block button, which means you can't just constantly attack.
...well, this is the princple anyway. There are a couple of problems with this imp. in B15, but we are sorting them in the next build. SO dont' get me wrong - there is still more work to do on our saber system (some of it is already done and is waiting to come out in the next Build release) but I just wanted to clear those couple of things up...


- For some weird reason, I keep seeing bots teleport around occasionally when they get hit.


Yeah, this is a wierd one. As Dacks has already said, it isn't a massive concern for us, since we are prodominantly an online mod - but I will get to the bottom of that one eventually. I have a suspicion it may be to do with damage knockback - but it;s only affecting bots for some reason... :confused:

razorace
06-03-2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
The most natural place for the 'block' button as a Jedi, however, is the right mouse button. Trying to manipulate the walk keyboard button and the directional keys during an intense duel adds unnessesary complication...

Assuming you're using the standard wasd set up for your keyboard, walking is as easy as holding the shift key or tapping caps lock. I've never had any problems with doing that what-so-ever.

My point is that you could free up that button for manual blocking and then use the attack+secondary button combo for something new like counters/finishing moves/etc.

...well, this is the princple anyway. There are a couple of problems with this imp. in B15, but we are sorting them in the next build. SO dont' get me wrong - there is still more work to do on our saber system (some of it is already done and is waiting to come out in the next Build release) but I just wanted to clear those couple of things up...

err, right, that's what I figured. It's very difficult to tell when there's no documentation.

So, exactly what did you do to the autoblock? Did you just reduce the block distance on the OJP autoblock? Used the basejka system or something new?

RenegadeOfPhunk
06-03-2004, 12:00 PM
Assuming you're using the standard wasd set up for your keyboard, walking is as easy as holding the shift key or tapping caps lock.


'Tapping' as in toggle I think is out of the question. Well, I mean people can try it this way if they like, but I don't think it could be considered a 'standard' way to play. Blocking is usually a fairly continual well-times on -> off -> on in order to effectively attack -> block -> counter-attack. THis does not lend itself well to a togelling action...

And I still stand by my first statement - it's more intuitive for 'most' people (not nessesarily you) to have the block button on right mouse button rather than a keyboard key. The fact that block in MB forces you to walk (and hence why you are trying to turn them into the same key) is actually totally irrelavent to this principle.

Dont' get me wrong - I understand what your saying. And if we could avoid with a back and forth session about how the block button could work just fine on the keyboard, then I'd appreciate it.
I acknowledge it 'could' work on the keyboard. I just think it's better being right click as standard - that's all...


My point is that you could free up that button for manual blocking and then use the attack+secondary button combo for something new like counters/finishing moves/etc.


Yes, this is a valid point. And this is maybe where you have to consider OJP and MBII seperately. MBII has reduced the number of key's you have to keep track of in the case of Jedi, and so if we needed a new 'finishing move' button, that wouldn't be a problem - in fact we already have one dedicated button which would be ideal for this. The main point is that this finishing move button would be just as appropiate as a keyboard key as a mouse button / combination.
imo you can't say the same for block...


err, right, that's what I figured. It's very difficult to tell when there's no documentation.


Yeah -this is a fair point. Were gonna work on proper documentation. There is the website - which does give some details, but that also still needs a bit of work...


So, exactly what did you do to the autoblock? Did you just reduce the block distance on the OJP autoblock? Used the basejka system or something new?


To be honest, there are so many little changes now it's getting hard for me to remember exactly what it was originally in the OJP implementation that I've altered...
But the underlying saber v saber blocking (once you get past the BP system) really isn't that different - at least from the early OJP version I'm working from (even though I may have added a few more blocking moves so that it looks a little different). It's just that the BP system is layered on top to catch player 'mistakes'.

To have a more detailed and technical descruption of the changes, you'd need to give me a chance to go back through the code and find the exact differences...


btw - please dont' take any of this stuff as being in any way critical of the current OJP saber system (To be totally honest, I haven't taken a good look at it for a while since I've been so busy with MB - so I dont' have an informed opinion on it atm anyway).

I'm only commenting here to defend the choices which we've made with the MB system. I am in no way trying to influence the OJP Enhanced system. Just wanna make that clear...

razorace
06-03-2004, 07:08 PM
Well, give me and Keshire some time to make the next revision of the saber system.

I'm really hoping that the simplified manual blocking with new block positions and transitions will be exactly what the system needs.

JediLiberator
06-03-2004, 08:43 PM
No offense to the Movie Battle mod but I think saber blocking shouldn't affect movement. What you should consider doing is limiting the speed someone can travel when they pull out the saber at all, unless, say they hold down shift and go into a running mode which should weaken a player's defenses. In real life sword fighting opponents are generally manuevering withing a few feet of each other anyway. If you ever see a fencing match you'll see what I mean. THe fighters don't walk in a way that looks like a crawl , but they aren't in a full out sprint either. I hope that whole post made sense to you folks.

RenegadeOfPhunk
06-03-2004, 10:30 PM
JediLiberator,

No offense taken - and I don't agree. I certainly dont' think you can have watched any OT duel and say that they constantly run around the whole fight like you do in base jka...

And even in the realtively fast-paced duels of - say - TPM, there were still sections where combatants slowed down, a tactic which has NO reasonable benefit in base jka...

But I'm not gonna continue to clog up the OJP forums with discussion of our saber system. I suggest you come to our forums if you want to discuss this more...

Gotaiken
06-04-2004, 12:50 AM
True phunk, but... try to keep the game fun, and point blanc the game is more fun when you are running, walking should have a greater blocking benefit but blocking should be still good when running.

RenegadeOfPhunk
06-04-2004, 06:08 AM
Gotaiken,

The idea in MBII is not to just stand there with block held all the time - the idea is for it to be attack -> block -> counter-attack. The only time your walking is in the block phase.

So MBII is not just walking (as opposed to base jka which is all running) - any given fight is a mixture of walking and running and hence caters for both OT and PT types of combat. (If you block more your basically playing OT combat, if you block less - still a legit tactic - then your playing more PT style...)


True phunk, but... try to keep the game fun, and point blanc the game is more fun when you are running


Plenty of people are currently enjoying the MBII system Got. And I can also find plenty of people who will disagree with you about 'constantly running' being more 'fun'. Your entitled to your opinion of course, but stating your own personal preference as if it's a fact for everybody is fairly misleading I feel...

But as I said before, if you want to talk about this properly, please either find one of the existing MB threads or come to our forums. This thread should be about the OJP Enhanced system....

Wudan
06-05-2004, 10:09 AM
Got, the idea behind making a mod isn't to keep gameplay the same - it's to change it, which RoP has done. Before you poo-poo his idea of good gameplay, give it a try.

Gotaiken
06-05-2004, 03:34 PM
Actually I test the mod nearly every day, and before you make assumptions it would be nice if you found out just how many ideas I contributed to the mod. Im not trying to bash his ideas, or mess up gameplay, Im trying to make the mod as fun and skillful as possible, and from more playtesting I agree with you Phunk, walking isnt a biggie, just please have it so that running backwards gives you a better chance to block. (not better then walking, just better then any other directional running)

RenegadeOfPhunk
06-05-2004, 07:03 PM
just please have it so that running backwards gives you a better chance to block. (not better then walking, just better then any other directional running)


That's actually a quite astute suggestion Got. Thx :)
I'll definelty give it some thought...

Gotaiken
06-05-2004, 09:12 PM
since you guys are fixing up the sabering i have an idea, how about taking out the spinning moves for duals and staff so that they play just like single, you may not think that its a big deal but it would be greatly appreciated, there is nothing worse than getting into an intense close range fight doing an unintential attack from a block animation and then still thinking that you are doing what you were trying to do (the direction of the attack is what i mean) you end up doing a turning attack and getting killed.

You could simply make another stance with the spinning moves, a dual/staff heavy stance if you will.

BTW if anyone couldnt understand what I was talking about in refrence to the reason why I think turning attacks shouldnt be in the main dual/staff stance, say so and I will clarify.

Gotaiken
06-06-2004, 08:24 AM
3 words
new blocking animations

keshire you are the man, i cant wait

keshire
06-06-2004, 08:33 AM
Eh? Did Razor let you in on the whole story of what I was working on?

*edit*
anyway just to put this into perspective.

the current blocks aren't animated and only cover 5 positions.

My blocks transition from the start position (BOTH_STAND2) and back, plus in between each other for a much smoother blocking experience.

also I expanded the cover to mostly a full circle (8 positions) in the front as well as added 5 positions to cover the sides and back.

In essance I've turned the blocking into its own saber style. With wind-ups and transitions galore. :)

Single saber is complete/done and Razor has it. Dual is mostly done and has been tweaked to take away that whole crossed sabers peice of crap looking blocks. Staff needs tweaking as well but nothing major and should be done given one or two nights of work.
*edit*

Gotaiken
06-06-2004, 06:26 PM
you werent supposed to tell us how its gonna be lol, i was just telling the others of what to expect, kinda wanted to be in awe when i got it :( now you spoiled it for me :mad: but its ok :D your still the man :) and keep up the exceptionally great and talented work. :p

Bit2k4
06-06-2004, 11:13 PM
Just by reading the argument on the first page about the blocking. It really got me thinking. (If these things are said, please forgive me because i did not read every single page, it was just too much) Anyway, it got me to thinking, with the blue slash attack (crouch+forward+attack) there is no need to defend there, for all you have to do is either of the following 1) roll backwards, left, or right or 2) jump backwards, or jump forwards behind him and then turn and kill him. So that takes care of that. Now there is this thing of saber slowing. This is definitly not an answer. Blocking is definitly a skill, so normal speed, will give the user time to stay away from him and learn the blocking, so this builds skill.

Now we get to the running and blocking thing. Now, im saying this as if it were real life, you can not block while running! Its just imposible, because you are trying to move and you then forget about bracing yourself. So really you should put runing as a stamina draining feet. Running normal is basicly a sprint, so that would work very well.

Also, going on with the trying to make block and run/walk work together, you should make it like this: If you forget about the stamina aspect of running, and keep it like it is normally, (running forever) you can basicly attach blocking to the walk/run button. So inturn what you do is, you hit the block button, and a direction key, and then u slow to a ... power walk if you will. Basicly that takes care of the running and blocking thing.

Please excuse me if these things where already mentioned, I just felt I had to say it for my sake, because just reading the front page, it got me thinking and, when i think, i think long and hard about things, because i dont always think long and hard.

Thank you for your time in reading this, hope your mod comes together soon, id love to play it soon!!

Gotaiken
06-10-2004, 06:55 AM
keshires blocking system looks great, cant wait to see it for duals and staff

Dbl90
06-16-2004, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

If you want to play a game which is unaffected by lag, then play Online Chess. .
[/B]

Chess is a lot about lag...the most popular net form of the chess is 3 minutes and under....if people are lagging badly they get a large disadvantage....I hear people whining about it on chess servers all the time