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Marker0077
12-28-2003, 06:49 PM
I recently got SoftImage|XSI specifically so I could start adding new animations for the new weapon type I'm working on (player animations not weapon), RA wants some new blocking animations & I was also thinking that we should bring back some of the old Quake taunts back into the game (flipping the bird or woteva). Now people can make these animations unaccessable via the game code if they choose not to have those things optional.

Anyways, I was thinking there should be a "OJP: New Animations" release. Now this would be for developers only obviously & everytime we add new animations, we put out a new version. The reason why we would do it this way was so each mod could use each others new animations. We should also make it so that which animations version they are using is noted in the mod docs somewhere.

From what I hear, Wudan & another developer are working on some sort of animations merging tool which would be useful but whether it is available or not, I do plan on doing whatever it is necessarry to make new animations available to all OJP supporters.

I just wanted to get everyones thoughts, comments, suggestions, etc; etc. regarding this. Let me know what you think people.

razorace
12-28-2003, 09:12 PM
"Flipping the bird" should not be put in the game. It's not Star Warsy, and it's unsportmanlike. Putting it in would only cause problems.

Secondly, due to the nature of the code, additional animations would have to be packaged with the code distros or they wouldn't work in game at all.

Marker0077
12-29-2003, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by razorace
"Flipping the bird" should not be put in the game. It's not Star Warsy, and it's unsportmanlike. Putting it in would only cause problems.LMFAO. Flipping off was in Quake & everyone loved it, I never heard a complaint about it 1 time - literally. I'll make sure there is a "clean-cut" version though, I'll just take those animation numbers & swap the animations with the Da Vinci pose or something.

Besides, I'd like to get past the whole "if it isn't Star Wars then it doesn't belong here" thing because there are a variety of games that would never have been created if everyone stayed in theme. This taunt adds alot of fun factor to the game, if I saw someone flipping me off in the game (especially if I didn't expect it), I would laugh my ass off.Originally posted by razorace
Secondly, due to the nature of the code, additional animations would have to be packaged with the code distros or they wouldn't work in game at all. Right, that's why this release would be for developers only. Developers would need to take the animations.gla & add it into their mod for it to work.

I plan on making AJK have 2 different types of play (or 2 different versions) with the firearm weapons, real guns & SW guns. The big difference between them aside from sounds & looks would be real guns cause bleeding, so you would need to bandage yourself in order to stop the bleeing. Laser fire is self-cauterizing & would be unneccessary.

razorace
12-29-2003, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by Marker0077
LMFAO. Flipping off was in Quake & everyone loved it, I never heard a complaint about it 1 time - literally. I'll make sure there is a "clean-cut" version though, I'll just take those animation numbers & swap the animations with the Da Vinci pose or something.

Besides, I'd like to get past the whole "if it isn't Star Wars then it doesn't belong here" thing because there are a variety of games that would never have been created if everyone stayed in theme. This taunt adds alot of fun factor to the game, if I saw someone flipping me off in the game (especially if I didn't expect it), I would laugh my ass off.Right, that's why this release would be for developers only. Developers would need to take the animations.gla & add it into their mod for it to work.

Q2 also had an older audience and a different focus. I suppose that the animation could be useful for non-Star Wars mods, but it's nothing that I would put into Star Wars mod.

There's enough problems with people taking the game too seriously as is. Imagine adding the ability to flip people off to that. :P

In addition, it's totally not Star Warsy and goes against Lucas's vision of a kid friendly Star Wars. However, if you invented a Star Wars equivilent, I'd be ok with that.

Marker0077
12-29-2003, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Q2 also had an older audience and a different focus. I suppose that the animation could be useful for non-Star Wars mods, but it's nothing that I would put into Star Wars mod.I don't think it should depend on SW or not. It should be solely up to the client whether or not those types of animations should be displayed. Perhaps a client side CVar.

Matter fact, I will be replacing all mature taunts with clean cut taunts in the clean cut version, this way it doesn't look lame to others if people use them (which the da vinci pose would).Originally posted by razorace
There's enough problems with people taking the game too seriously as is. Imagine adding the ability to flip people off to that. :PI would laugh so hard.

The only thing people really take seriously is chat attacking & people who prematurely attack while someone is bowing, that's it. There are certain areas that should be gone over with the public as far as player ettiquete/sportsmanship goes & I do intend on covering these areas in CM.Originally posted by razorace
In addition, it's totally not Star Warsy and goes against Lucas's vision of a kid friendly Star Wars. However, if you invented a Star Wars equivilent, I'd be ok with that. The people that play JK are in the 14 to 26 yr old range. Very (& I do mean very) few are out of this age range. That's old enough to handle being flipped off or at least old enough to make the decision on whether or not those types of animations should or should not be permitted to be displayed to them.

Again, I will make a clean cut version but ideally the best way is to just have these animations in the Mature pack, this way clients can decide for themselves what they do & do not want to see & hear. The only problem I see with doing it this way is when the .gla is added to the mod pack in the custom folder, it will be used, not the .gla that's in the Mature pack which will be located in the "base" folder.

I suppose I could create a animations file for the base folder, it's not like its removing anything out of "base", it's really just adding onto it. Then any mods that want to use these animations will use this animations file (which goes in "base") & then whomever wants to use the Mature pack can & the Mature animations will be fully functional or mods could just use the Mature release of the animations & code a client side CVar that enables/disables the Mature animations.

Ideally the best way would be to have the Mature animations included in all the mods .pk3 file & have something included in the Mature pack that enables the Mature animations in the mod.

razorace
12-29-2003, 08:54 AM
You can only really have one .gla for the humanoid. Any more and you're going to cause a nightmare when it comes to servers and for coders.

Just stick with one file, handling which animations are playable will have to be done in the code anyway.

Marker0077
12-29-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by razorace
You can only really have one .gla for the humanoid. Any more and you're going to cause a nightmare when it comes to servers and for coders.Why would it? As long as everyone is using the same animations .gla, it should be fine. All the animation numbers for everyone would be the same because it's based on the same file.

In other words, lets say I add 2 Mature animations which is #'s 20001 through 20030. Then I add the OJP Enhanced animations (for blocking & whatnot) & they are numbers 20031 through 20090, then I add animations for MB which takes up 20091 through 20130....

All 3 mods use the same animations file (not same copy, just same file), if any one of them needs a certain animation it's there; Or if there is a taunt in MB (which is clean cut) & an OJP user wants to use it (or their hilt .sab file calls for it), it has access to it in OJP etc; etc.

I don't see why you would think there would be any problems. There will of course be extensive testing on this but I highly doubt there will be any problems.Originally posted by razorace
Just stick with one file, handling which animations are playable will have to be done in the code anyway. Not entirely true. You can choose custom animations via the .sab files.

Besides, server-side only mods can add new commands to play these new animations. If they do not exist for the client, then nothing will be played; Just like with the .sab file.

razorace
12-29-2003, 09:25 AM
Uh, you have to change code to add additional animations entries to the animation.cfg, if you don't, you're probably going to have all sorts of problems.

However, simply, adding new frames to the .gla shouldn't require code changes.

Marker0077
12-29-2003, 09:57 AM
We'll need to update the animations cfg files when we add more animations to the .gla, now I haven't tested this yet but I'm pretty sure that will be enough for animations work in conjunction with .sab files, so the same concept should apply to server-side only mods being used in conjunction with the CM client animations mod.

As far as this goes for custom mods, again, I think mods like OJP & MB should use the mature pack version of the mod & just disable the mature animations by default via a CVar or have something in the mature pack enable those animations.

It really is up to each coder how they want to handle it with their mod. I think the community will feel that allowing them to make up their own minds is the best decision.

razorace
12-29-2003, 07:30 PM
You couldn't have a server side only mod with new animations. It just wouldn't work since you'd need to have the new animation.cfg and .gla.

Marker0077
12-30-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by razorace
You couldn't have a server side only mod with new animations. It just wouldn't work since you'd need to have the new animation.cfg and .gla. I said "the same concept should apply to server-side only mods being used in conjunction with the CM client animations mod". It wouldn't be the server-side mod alone, it would also be the CM animations mod which I'm sure C1 would love to participate in.

razorace
12-30-2003, 01:00 AM
Who is C1?

Anyway, it would defeat the purpose of a server side mod to do something like that since it wouldn't be server side only anymore.

Marker0077
12-30-2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Who is C1?Chosen One.Originally posted by razorace
Anyway, it would defeat the purpose of a server side mod to do something like that since it wouldn't be server side only anymore. Well the CM animations pack wouldn't come with JAR, it would be a totally seperate pack & I'm sure there are other coders who'd want to jump on this opportunity as well. If a person doesn't have the CM animations pack then they would see nothing & if they do, they would get the new animations.

You also have to realize, I haven't done any testing with this yet so keep in mind most of this stuff is still "on the drawing board". If I find out that the server is going to automatically download the animations file (which is pretty likely) then I might just toss the idea altogether.

The same concept applies to the new vehicles & whatnot, if the server is using them then you *have* to download them - I hate that, but it has to go in base otherwise only the 1 mod can use it which is a waste.

All of the downloading all depends on whether or not the server & client has their downloads on but still, I don't want those types of things to be downloadable. Yes, I realize disabling downloading via the server will remedy that problem but I don't *ever* want them to be downloadable.

razorace
12-30-2003, 05:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that different animation .glas would trigger the pure filter.

Wudan
12-30-2003, 02:15 PM
You're making something simple be very complex.

1. To make new animations you have to be clever.
2. To get them in-game you have to be even more clever.
3. To utilize them in a mod to make them 'worth the download' you must be both creative and uber-clever.

Screw talk about 'flip-off' this, and 'crotch-grab' that - those aren't really 'enhanced' or 'basic' OJP - stand-alone mods can touch that if they want to - true enhancements would be 'filling out' the gaps in the current animations - better weapon-ready stances, better firing animations, etc.

Marker0077
12-30-2003, 04:30 PM
First off, I CALL DIBS ON THE ANIMATIONS PACK :-o

RA said I had to actually post, so there it is man.Originally posted by Wudan
You're making something simple be very complex.Not really. I know what I want to do I'm just not sure how I'm going to go about doing it yet. Once I look into Softimage, I'll go from there.Originally posted by Wudan
1. To make new animations you have to be clever.
2. To get them in-game you have to be even more clever.
3. To utilize them in a mod to make them 'worth the download' you must be both creative and uber-clever.Considering how everything else works & how this *should* work, I highly doubt it's going to be rocket scientry to make happen. Most people do a half fast job or just don't think things through, so personally I think what you are considering to be cleverness is just common sense. At least for me anyways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm a freakin genius but I've been into gaming development for 10 years, the past 2 have been real serious. I'm not really worried about making this happen, the only thing I'm worried about is finding the time.Originally posted by Wudan
Screw talk about 'flip-off' this, and 'crotch-grab' that - those aren't really 'enhanced' or 'basic' OJP - stand-alone mods can touch that if they want to - true enhancements would be 'filling out' the gaps in the current animations - better weapon-ready stances, better firing animations, etc.What's wrong with doing them all? The old sk00lers (such as myself) would enjoy bringing the old taunts back & I intend to do so, along with a variety of other animations as well. If you don't enjoy the animations, then don't use them. Bottom line is it's better to have something & not need it than to need something & not have it. Unless there is some sort of cap on how many animations you can have, I'm not going to not include it "just because" or whatever.

What I am hoping to do is just have people create animations in 3DS Max & I can add them to the animations pack from there. Again, until I actually start checking out Softimage for myself, I really don't know for sure what is & is not going to happen. I should be getting into it within the next few weeks. I'm actually waiting for some of the Raven crew to get back from vacation so I can find out more about it before I even get started.

Wudan
12-31-2003, 10:00 PM
Please explain how common sense is going to help you put new animations in to a game when you have no skeleton for the models?

Darth Sun
01-01-2004, 01:53 AM
My words on this, opinions of course (like I gave in past subjects) since I'm not part of the team.

I agree with Razor here, all those are not "Star Wars".
Granted you can say people loved it in Quake2 (not that people would use them often, they would get railed or rocketed afterwards about 75% of the times), yet by saying so you're imediatly distancing both since JA is in no way a Q2 game since it includes Light Sabers (which the majority of servers use) and not just "you killed someone with your railgun slug which blew him up to tiny little pieces" kind of play; in fact not many people play JA with weapons, judging by the ammount of servers out there, including mine which is saber only.

New animations for new attacks and other stuff (Star Warsy stuff preferably) sure, Michael Jackson style crotch holds, flip-offs and so on aren't that nice for a Star Wars related game; if they were then I'm sure Raven would have included it themselves, although LEC wouldn't let them do it to begin with.

If you want OJP to be well respected and also to be recognized to be a good part of the Star Wars gaming universe you surely don't want those sorts of insultous animations to be included.

Just two cents from someone who wants OJP to succeed.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Wudan
Please explain how common sense is going to help you put new animations in to a game when you have no skeleton for the models? Quite a few skeletons came in the JK3 SDK. I believe they are in the .XSI files, now the original .XSI plugin that came with the JK2 SDK doesn't work on the new .XSIs however there are other plugins for XSI on the net that do work.

Keep in mind, without skeletons, no one could add models for JK3. Even if you didn't have a working plugin, there is info on the net on how to convert JK2 skeletons over to JK3.

If you need the plugin, just let me know & I'll email it to you. I'm sure you can find it on the net easy though.Originally posted by Darth Sun
My words on this, opinions of course (like I gave in past subjects) since I'm not part of the team.One of the nice things about OJP is everyone is apart of the team, not staff but team. Just because you don't produce code, models, or whatever, that doesn't mean you might not see something cool that eluded the rest of us. All you have to do is post about it. While concept design doesn't have the stress or workload as coding, modeling, or whatever, you wouldn't have code, or models, or whatever, without it.

In other words, it's a public forum man & we want feedback from everyone so don't hesitate to speak your opinion on something if you think you have a good idea.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I agree with Razor here, all those are not "Star Wars".
Granted you can say people loved it in Quake2...First of all, just because Quake 2 was mainly a firearm weapons game & JA is mainly a melee combat game, that doesn't mean these taunts would be any less useful, matter fact, it's all the more reason.

Secondly, let's be honest here. Everyone taunts every now & again while dueling. It's the virtual way of saying "bring it" & it's all in good fun. Tell me you wouldn't love to flip people off in mid-fight, I think that would be funnier than hell at times, especially if people didn't know that it was in there, but of course, they *will* know it's in there. I guarantee it'll be 1 of the highlights that people talk about. Not that I personally would consider it one if the "highlighted" features but knowing how the community is, they will.

Thirdly, the beauty about this is, if people do not want to see "Mature" animations - they don't have to. They can keep the clean cut version & they will see people doing the standard taunt & not the new one (at least that's the gameplan).

The thing that I am guessing is eluding alot of people is, just because the animations are included in there, that doesn't mean they *have* to get used. Hell, people can disable certain animations just by the .cfg files alone. The way I look at it, the more animations the merrier. It's more flexibility for the developers & the users.

As far as the "Its not Star Warsy" thing goes, I think that's crazy to limit yourself like that. That's like saying I shouldn't add non-Star Wars models to the Skins pack just because it's not Star Wars. Forget that. If the model is good quality or just a good idea, I'm adding it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If you want OJP to be well respected and also to be recognized to be a good part of the Star Wars gaming universe you surely don't want those sorts of insultous animations to be included.I plan on making 2 versions of the animations pack. A Standard version, & a Mature version. I already have a Mature pack for CM that adds a Mature version of Lady Vengeance (some profanity), I have more blade sounds added (still need to work on a clean cut blade), I am working on a Eminem & Dre model conversion from Quake 3 to JK3 to go in the pack, etc; etc; so I am hoping to keep the Mature animations there.

I will submit both versions of the animations pack to OJP, if RA wants to refuse the Mature version then that's his call. I'm doing both versions for CM either way.

Wudan
01-01-2004, 07:33 AM
Take any .XSI skeleton you please, go ahead and try to get an animation from XSI or MAX in to JKA. It's not bloody possible unless you know what the hell you're doing.

I know you're a clever guy, but tons of clever guys before you have ground their gears to dust and washed away with their own tears of frustration, long before these posts, or OJP.

You can have XSI, you can have 3dsm - you can have all the exporters and converters that you can possibly download - where the rubber meets the road, you'll need to take whatever you make and get it in-game, which just so happens to be the 'hard part'.

There are no HUMAN XSI skeletons for JKA. Corto made one, but it's not suitable for creating animations, just for weighting and modelling.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 07:45 AM
Mike Gummelt said we need Softimage in order to make these new animations, so I got it. I'm waiting for him to get back from vacation, email me & go from there.

No one knows exactly what they are doing with player animations. Instead of spending mind boggling hours of trying to figure it out on my own, I decided to go to the source. Yes, it is *possible* that I may never be able to produce animations for JK however, the Raven staff have spent time responding between other various developers in this community, I don't see why it would be any different from me. Especially after the CM release.

As for "getting it in-game", you're right, it's not possible. Not without a .gla importer & exporter anyways.

Darth Sun
01-01-2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Marker0077
One of the nice things about OJP is everyone is apart of the team, not staff but team. Just because you don't produce code, models, or whatever, that doesn't mean you might not see something cool that eluded the rest of us. All you have to do is post about it. While concept design doesn't have the stress or workload as coding, modeling, or whatever, you wouldn't have code, or models, or whatever, without it.


Thank you; I'll participate in OJP through opinions very often then, I believe.


In other words, it's a public forum man & we want feedback from everyone so don't hesitate to speak your opinion on something if you think you have a good idea.
Secondly, let's be honest here. Everyone taunts every now & again while dueling. It's the virtual way of saying "bring it" & it's all in good fun. Tell me you wouldn't love to flip people off in mid-fight, I think that would be funnier than hell at times, especially if people didn't know that it was in there, but of course, they *will* know it's in there. I guarantee it'll be 1 of the highlights that people talk about. Not that I personally would consider it one if the "highlighted" features but knowing how the community is, they will.


Depends, I personaly wouldn't flip-off someone in JA and I never do a taunt mid-duel unless I wanna be cut in half; at the end of the duel is difererent, but I still wouldn't flip them off.


Thirdly, the beauty about this is, if people do not want to see "Mature" animations - they don't have to. They can keep the clean cut version & they will see people doing the standard taunt & not the new one (at least that's the gameplan).


Like Razor said, this brings the problem for "pure servers".
You either have one animation set or the other animation set, it's impossible to have both working at the same time since the "pure server" setting would detect they defer and kick off people with the diferent set of the server.
The idea is good, just impossible to put to work in JA since there's no way to seperate both unless all the OJP based servers run as "unpure", which I doubt will happen.


The thing that I am guessing is eluding alot of people is, just because the animations are included in there, that doesn't mean they *have* to get used. Hell, people can disable certain animations just by the .cfg files alone. The way I look at it, the more animations the merrier. It's more flexibility for the developers & the users.


The user and developer flexibility is good, but again the "pure server" issue comes to play since you can't just edit your animation.cfg and play in servers which have it.


As far as the "Its not Star Warsy" thing goes, I think that's crazy to limit yourself like that. That's like saying I shouldn't add non-Star Wars models to the Skins pack just because it's not Star Wars. Forget that. If the model is good quality or just a good idea, I'm adding it.I plan on making 2 versions of the animations pack. A Standard version, & a Mature version. I already have a Mature pack for CM that adds a Mature version of Lady Vengeance (some profanity), I have more blade sounds added (still need to work on a clean cut blade), I am working on a Eminem & Dre model conversion from Quake 3 to JK3 to go in the pack, etc; etc; so I am hoping to keep the Mature animations there.


It's a bit diferent adding non SW models from adding potentially offensive animations.
I personally try to use SWish stuff in JA, but if a good model from something non SWish appears I instal it anyway.

To make all of what I said shorter, new animations is a good idea, but JA's system renders your idea of having two seperate packs functioning simultaneously impossible, plus the fact not many people may like to see their opponent flipping them off or "Michael Jackson crotch hold" at them; also consider some SW fans which will most likely hate it.

Wudan
01-01-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
Mike Gummelt said we need Softimage in order to make these new animations, so I got it. I'm waiting for him to get back from vacation, email me & go from there.

No one knows exactly what they are doing with player animations. Instead of spending mind boggling hours of trying to figure it out on my own, I decided to go to the source. Yes, it is *possible* that I may never be able to produce animations for JK however, the Raven staff have spent time responding between other various developers in this community, I don't see why it would be any different from me. Especially after the CM release.

As for "getting it in-game", you're right, it's not possible. Not without a .gla importer & exporter anyways.

I did spend mind-boggling hours figuring it out. I did correspond with Gummelt, Monroe, and Ste Cork (who maintained the format source for JK2) on this.

Are you referring to the article Mike Gummelt wrote on it?

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sun
Depends, I personaly wouldn't flip-off someone in JA and I never do a taunt mid-duel unless I wanna be cut in half; at the end of the duel is difererent, but I still wouldn't flip them off.I taunt people in mid-duel every day & very rarely do I get sliced up for it but I play Duel mode only. Anyways, whatever.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Like Razor said, this brings the problem for "pure servers".
You either have one animation set or the other animation set, it's impossible to have both working at the same time since the "pure server" setting would detect they defer and kick off people with the diferent set of the server.
The idea is good, just impossible to put to work in JA since there's no way to seperate both unless all the OJP based servers run as "unpure", which I doubt will happen.RA was speculating, he doesn't know that & until we have a newly compiled .GLA & do some testing, none of us will know. There's a few different ways to go about doing this & nothing is for sure at this point.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...also consider some SW fans which will most likely hate it.Just a difference in opinion between the 2 of us. I've been dealing with public relations for GF for almost 2 years up until a few months ago & I think people will go nuts over it. I wouldn't pursue it if I felt otherwise.Originally posted by Wudan
I did spend mind-boggling hours figuring it out. I did correspond with Gummelt, Monroe, and Ste Cork (who maintained the format source for JK2) on this.Cool, hope it works out well for ya.Originally posted by Wudan
Are you referring to the article Mike Gummelt wrote on it?He said that we need Softimage in an interview at some point, I think this was pre-JK3.

Anyways, it's a goal of mine & I intend on making it happen one way or another. I'm just not pursuing it heavily at this point for a variety of reasons but I eventually will, probably some time within the next few weeks here.

The Softimage software is around 4 to 10 grand so I can understand why alot of people don't have it... you might want to email me on this. There are certain things I don't want to post publically. All my contact info is in my sig, I use ICQ & MSN IM most of the time.

Darth Sun
01-01-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Marker0077
RA was speculating, he doesn't know that & until we have a newly compiled .GLA & do some testing, none of us will know.
It wasn't speculation, it won't work, period.
Trust me on this, I did minor mods for Quake 3 (and previously for Quake 2, but this one didn't have the "pureness" of servers before) and the minor diference in the PK3 files (in this case it would be the animation GLA) is a CRC diference, thus the Quake 3 engine prevents the player from going in since it detects PK3 diferences compared with the server (presuming the server is set to "pure" like the majority of them, however it would work in "unpure" servers).

Believe me, I go a long way with the Quake engine functionality, I just don't know enough to do big mods to this extent but I know how it works very well.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sun
Believe me, I go a long way with the Quake engine functionality, I just don't know enough to do big mods to this extent but I know how it works very well.I've been modding for over 10 years. I was working on TC mods since the days of Doom & Heretic, this isn't my first rodeo man so please listen to what I am telling you. I have done some pretty extensive testing with JK2 so I'm sure the same stuff applies to JK3.

Yes, it is *possible* that it will require a download, however, that does not mean that it will not run without it. It might work out so that unless someone is actually using the new animations, it may not go for the download; In which case, it won't start the download until the player connects & then there is a map change.

The "base" folder does not function the same way a custom folder does. You can have a blank .pk3 file in the "base" folder & the server will not attempt to upload it to the client but if you put that same blank .pk3 file in a custom folder, the server will attempt to upload it to the client. The "base" folder only uploads what you *need*, custom folders upload all .pk3 files that are in that folder.

In all reality, the server should be using the new animations .pk3 file so I do think it will attempt to download it just like you & RA are thinking it will, however, that doesn't mean the server will not function in pure mode if downloading is disabled. Purity makes it so you can't use files that the server isn't using & the only time I've ever seen the server not function in pure mode when a client doesn't have a file the server does is when the missing file is where the .qvm/.dll file is in there. That does not automatically mean that same concept will apply to the animations file.

An another note, we might just be able to seperate the clean cut version from the mature version all via the .cfg files (which I don't think I will be doing because it leaves room for allowing the Mature animations for those who may not want it).

Also, purity is not as solid in JK as it is in Quake 3. I've joined a Duelers 1.2 for JK2 pure server (client & server-side mod) with Duelers 1.2 & Duelers 1.3 in my duelers folder & I was able to access new features that were implimented in Duelers 1.3.

So you see, things are not always as they are appear & until you actually test it, you do not know for fact what will or will not happen.

Darth Sun
01-01-2004, 08:05 PM
You still didn't get it, so I'll tell it diferently using what you said.


Yes, it is *possible* that it will require a download, however, that does not mean that it will not run without it. It might work out so that unless someone is actually using the new animations, it may not go for the download; In which case, it won't start the download until the player connects & then there is a map change.

That itself defeats the purpose of having a seperate animation pack.

Let's say I am using the "clean" animation set and I go in a server which has the "flip-off" animation set.
My client would start to download the "flip-off.pk3" so I could be pure to the server since I didn't have that one, I had the "clean.pk3".
Eventually I would join once the download is complete, as expected, and I would start seeing what I didn't wanna see, the flip-offs and the crotch holds.

You see, it's possible yes, but they will override themselves.

If someone has their download ability disabled (like I do) then they are kicked since they can't match the server "purity".

Purity does what you said, but if the client doesn't have an important file like the animations (granted these would be included in a sort of system file, thus making it a client thing) it would eventually throw the server out of synch.
Think about it, and I know what you said is possible of going in a server without the required files (I saw it happen in my own server) it would have weird results for the clients who don't have the files and many even complained to me about it; it was either stances they couldn't select, stance colors not working, invisible saber blades (due to the RGB mod), unsynched animations (due to diferent lengths for taunts and so on) and I could go on and on.

Trust me, wouldn't work well, even though it would be possible while giving loads of problems.
If you want to do an animation pack do a single one, with flip-offs or no flip-offs, just do one.
At most these flip-offs would be a server Cvar like some mods already have ability to disable certain "emotes", this way if people don't want the animations they look for a server with the flip-offs disabled even though they are still installed.

Now, completly offtopic and directed to Marker007:
I also did Doom mods and so on, but believe me that it's completly irrelevant for this case since Doom was 100% unpure, fully hackable and easilly altered to give you some weird advantages in online play.
I'm only talking about pure Quake 3 engine editing/moding/using since it's the only thing relevant for this discussion; we're not trying to see which one of us is "leet" and not and who has been in this more than the other, irrelevant.

I hope you read all of this.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sun
Let's say I am using the "clean" animation set and I go in a server which has the "flip-off" animation set.
My client would start to download the "flip-off.pk3" so I could be pure to the server since I didn't have that one, I had the "clean.pk3".
Eventually I would join once the download is complete, as expected, and I would start seeing what I didn't wanna see, the flip-offs and the crotch holds.Well you might not want to see a naked tavion running around but if the server has that model with a bot running, you're going to download it.

If it's an unpure server, it might not even download the thing at all. I don't think purity being on or off will make any difference though.

I will be including an actual manual in winhelp or HTML format (depends if it's win or linux/unix). This is something I will cover there. Hell, I may even be doing server presets in which case I'll be disabling downloading altogether. People should have sites for that kind of thing.Originally posted by Darth Sun
You see, it's possible yes, but they will override themselves.

If someone has their download ability disabled (like I do) then they are kicked since they can't match the server "purity".Yet again, YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT. I already explained to you the scenario with Duelers in the previous post, animation files & actual code files ARE NOT the same thing & even if it does act the same, purity in JK2 is a bit dodgy to begin with. There *are* all kinds of possibilities, until we do some testing on this we do not *know* anything for sure.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Trust me, wouldn't work well, even though it would be possible while giving loads of problems.I'm certainly not going to problem solve a problem that I am not 100% sure is even going to be a problem in the first place.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If you want to do an animation pack do a single one, with flip-offs or no flip-offs, just do one.The animations pack is a resource for developers so I am doing both any way you look at it. Coders can choose which animations they want to include in their mods .pk3 files.

As far as doing just 1 pack for CM to be distributed publically, I may do that. I'm not 100% what it is I am doing exactly & I won't until I have something to work with.

Look, I'm not saying that what you are saying isn't going to happen or isn't even a likely possiblity but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility that it won't work out that way & it will function okay with 2 different packs.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...it's the only thing relevant for this discussion...The relevancy was that I had been modding for 10 years. I knew how this stuff worked then, I know how this stuff works now. There have been plenty of times people (& sometimes even myself) have said "oh ya, that will definitely work out that way - no doubt" & blah blah blah & it doesn't. DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING, unless you have *actually tested it*, you do not know.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I hope you read all of this.Likewise.

Darth Sun
01-02-2004, 01:35 AM
I'll make this my last post in this thread since I don't like to talk to a wall for long periods of time and here I'm not saying you're a wall but merely saying you're not listening to what I'm saying that I have seen from EXPERIENCE.

I talk about this because I KNOW how it works and I KNOW it will do that.
Didn't you read I said people complained about troubles in my JO server because of this exact thing of them having one file (or no file) and me having others?

If the server is running Naked Tavion I won't see it, basically because I have downloads turned off, I will just see Kyle.
If the server is running server sensitive stuff then I'm merely booted from the server for not having the stuff, it's that simple.

Purity on and off WILL make a diference; it did a diference in JO, it did a diference in Quake 3, it did a diference in Elite Force, it did a diference in Medal of Honor, it did a diference in Soldiers of Fortune 2 and it makes a diference in JA since some friends of mine can't even join my JA server unless I set it to unpure!

Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
If we go by age, we both apparently work on this since we're 11 (judging your Avatar says you're 21), the diference being I'm 23, meaning I work on games for longer than you do if this is of any relevance, which is not since Doom doesn't work in any similar way to Quake 3; back then Doom editing was through hacks of the executable itself to alter animation tables, weapon effects and so on, pwad creation with new maps, iwads with new sprites for the characters/monsters and didn't go much further than that till ID Software released the Doom source code to let people do their own ports.
Quake and Quake 2 are similar to Quake 3 though and in these I have experience since I modded for them, even coded and did models and skins for Quake 2 and I also coded a bit for Quake 3.
Games 10 years ago did not work the same way of games from 4 years ago and even less like games of today.

I repeat, the best way is to do one single pack of animations with all of them and just doing a sort of cvar to turn off the "offensive" animations if people, and the server admin itself, want to turn them off.

I will now rest my case in this thread since I don't want this to turn into a flame war for something as small as an animation pack, granted things are already a bit heated up as it is.
If you somehow make this "two animation packs" idea work, congratulations Marker007, but from personal experience I doubt it will work.

I apologise to everyone beforehand for whatever I could have said that goes against anyone's opinions and/or personal experiences.

Darth Sun
01-02-2004, 01:35 AM
Edit: Bleh, double post. o_O

Marker0077
01-02-2004, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Darth Sun
I'll make this my last post in this thread since I don't like to talk to a wall for long periods of time and here I'm not saying you're a wall but merely saying you're not listening to what I'm saying that I have seen from EXPERIENCE.Well, you have a funny way of not calling this not like talkin to a wall but I understand completely what you are talking about. It is frustrating when you tell people something & they do not listen to what you are telling them.

Since this whole ordeal is rather pointless without ACTUAL FACTS, I decided to run some tests of my own to settle the matter. The tests proved that you were right & you were wrong...

If you connect to a server running a map that you have, it will not start the download & will allow you to connect without the new animations, however, it does start the download (& does not permit you to connect without it) upon map change, regardless of whether you have the map or not. Now you could just reconnect but I totally do not like having it set up like that.

I more than likely will be going with just 1 animations pack. I'm hoping I can just use different .cfg files to settle the matter in "base" or perhaps I might just have the Mature animations run in a custom folder (this would cause complications for server-side only mods though) but we'll see how it goes. Until I actually have a way of producing the new animations, I'm not going to worry about it.

Anyways, I'd just like to point out that this is EXACTLY why I said what I said. You might *think* you know something to be fact but UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY TEST IT OUT YOU DON'T.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Didn't you read I said people complained about troubles in my JO server because of this exact thing of them having one file (or no file) and me having others?Servers may download models that have bots running, but it doesn't download sound mods or weapon mods; Not out of "base" anyways (custom folders download *all* .pk3 files).

Since no one has ever modified the player animations & made a working .pk3 of them, you can't say you know FOR FACT that it will go one way or the other.

Now all I did was put everything that was in the _humanoid folder into a seperate .pk3 & it does everything we needed to test out the downloadability. There are obviously still other factors to worry about, such as various animations not included in the assets attempted to be ran on clients whom do not have the pack.

Again, I'll worry about this bridge when I come to it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Purity on and off WILL make a diference; it did a diference in JO, it did a diference in Quake 3, it did a diference in Elite Force, it did a diference in Medal of Honor, it did a diference in Soldiers of Fortune 2 and it makes a diference in JA since some friends of mine can't even join my JA server unless I set it to unpure!#1 What I said was that the purity system in JK is dodgy, I didn't say it didn't work.

#2 I made over 250 mods for MoH:AA & I do know FOR FACT that the purity system in Allied Assault DID NOT WORK. Not within the first year of the game at least.

Now perhaps Spearhead or any of the other add-ons have a working purity system but Allied Assault certainly does not, or at least did not. I left MoH shortly after SH was released because I knew my centerpiece mod would never run out of a custom folder & I hated jimmy rigging the thing to make it work. The point is I wouldn't know about SH & the other packs because I didn't stick around. I wanted to mod a game for a company that cared about its modding community.

#3 What does your friends not being able to join your server have anything to do with how new animations will function in a pure server? Does your server have new animations? It probably doesn't, therefore it doesn't apply.

You could have a weapon or sound mod on your server & they could connect just fine, yet if you have a new vehicle on your server (& someone is using it) then they will not be able to connect unless they have the file or download it from the server.

Different files function in different ways. Since there are no new animations out there you CAN NOT SAY YOU KNOW **FOR FACT** what will or will not happen. You can say "I'm pretty sure it will go this way" but that's not what you said, you said "I know for fact" which was not exactly the case.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If we go by age, we both apparently work on this since we're 11 (judging your Avatar says you're 21)...My avatar says that was me WHEN I was 21, which was 5 years ago. The 77 in my name is my year of birth.

Anyways, who's older doesn't mean anything. Just because I have been doing this longer than you, that doesn't necessarily mean I know more than you & it certainly doesn't mean I'm better. All I was trying to point out was I've been doing this for a long time & I've been around long enough to realize you *MUST* test everything.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...meaning I work on games for longer than you do if this is of any relevance...That's a little hard to believe since I've been around since day 1. I was doing this sort of thing before the internet was big & we had to go off of just the books that id had released to the public.

Anyways, the last reply applies to this one as well. I don't feel like getting into this dick measuring contest with you, you believe whatever.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...which is not since Doom doesn't work in any similar way to Quake 3...For the most part no but there are certain things that still work the same considering Quake was built off of Doom. It's nothing significant but it can be useful knowledge in some cases.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I repeat, the best way is to do one single pack of animations with all of them and just doing a sort of cvar to turn off the "offensive" animations if people, and the server admin itself, want to turn them off.This only applies to those who will be adding the pack to their mod such as OJP, MB, etc; etc. We're not changing any code in base - no way.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I will now rest my case in this thread since I don't want this to turn into a flame war for something as small as an animation pack, granted things are already a bit heated up as it is.Agreed. I've expressed my opinion & vice versa. We'll just leave it at that.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If you somehow make this "two animation packs" idea work, congratulations Marker007, but from personal experience I doubt it will work.There's more than 1 way to skin a cat. I'm sure it can be done, the problem is figuring out the best way of going about handling it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I apologise to everyone beforehand for whatever I could have said that goes against anyone's opinions and/or personal experiences.There's nothing wrong with having a difference in opinion, you just need to watch rude commentary.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Edit: Bleh, double post. o_OIf you hit the edit button, there is a delete option at the top.

babywax
01-02-2004, 12:35 PM
I think it would be advisable to put all the animations, "old school" (whatever you want to call them, doesn't matter to me) in the same .gla/.glm (whatever it uses, I haven't made any models for JA/JO yet) and just switch out the animations.cfg. I admit I haven't done any modding for JA or even any quake 3 based games, but to me this seems like the obvious solution.
If I understand it correctly animations.cfg is just a file dictating which animations are linked to which frames in the _humanoi file? If so it seems like the best solution to me.

Darth Sun
01-02-2004, 02:08 PM
Sorry, I was probably a bit too heated in my last post regarding the whole animation thing.

I'm going through a little personal problem which I won't go into detail and I guess I unloaded the problem a bit on that thread.

Anyway, I'll show now the things I know about pureness with JO and JA from what I have seen from being a dedicated server admin for these games.

With a pure server this is what happens:
- PK3 files with VEH files, client DLL files and animation files are downloaded by the client if they don't have them, if the player has downloads turned off he is kicked off the server.
- PK3 files with models and skins don't have download enforcement, so if the player has downloads turned off he is still allowed inside the server.
- PK3 files with maps are only downloaded if they are being used and the player doesn't have them, till they show up he won't download them if he doesn't have them.
- PK3 files with maps and with VEH files are downloaded if the player doesn't have the VEH files (case of KOTOR Flight School and Bespin Flight Arena), although as you probably guessed it's the VEH (system files) which are trigering the download and not the map itself.
- PK3 files with new NPCs are not flagged as an enforced download, if you spawn one I'm not really sure what happens since I never tested it.
- Curiously enough, in unpure servers the VEH PK3s are sometimes not enforced, this causes the client without the VEH files to be kicked off the server the moment a VEH they don't have is spawned.
- PK3 files with new sabers, new glows and so on are not flagged as an enforced download, so people will see default blades or see no blade in the case of the RGB sabers since they use a whole new saber blade file.

That's all I found out about how the pureness works in JO/JA.

Diferent GLA will have an enforced download flag in a pure server, but, as many pointed out, the animations.cfg might actually not have that flag.
As mentioned many times by me, Marker007 and some others, having one GLA and a diferent CFG might make it work, but remember that the CFG must be in a diferent PK3 or the CRC check will notice there's a diference and try to download the whole thing again since the GLA is marked as a system file.
It'll be a matter of testing to see if the animations.cfg will be downloaded or not for being diferent.

Again I apologise for my "flamish" posts, I didn't mean to offend Marker007 nor anyone, I've just been having a somewhat rough week.

This now is really my last post in this thread, sorry.

P.S.: Ah, thanks, never noticed the delete button in the "edit" post function. o_O

Marker0077
01-02-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by babywax
I think it would be advisable to put all the animations... ...in the same .gla/.glm... ...and just switch out the animations.cfg.My only concern is mature animations being shown to those whom do not want to view it. If I can get away with accomplishing that by doing this that way then sure but I don't think I will be. Having the only thing stopping the Mature animations from being displayed is the .cfg file leaves too much room to play Mature animations to those whom do not want to view it. I could be wrong on that but again, until I have something to work with, I'm not too concerned about it.Originally posted by babywax
If I understand it correctly animations.cfg is just a file dictating which animations are linked to which frames in the _humanoi file? If so it seems like the best solution to me.Ya I think so.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Sorry, I was probably a bit too heated in my last post regarding the whole animation thing.Likewise on the apologies. Don't worry about it, nothing that bad was said & even if it was, I can handle it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
- PK3 files with models and skins don't have download enforcement, so if the player has downloads turned off he is still allowed inside the server.The models themselves are not enforced no but if the server is running a bot with a model that the player doesn't have, it goes for the download. I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it will boot you from the server if you do not have downloads turned on.

As far as the other files goes (like what gets downloaded, when & why), if the server is using the file it will hit the client up for a download. There are only certain types of files that will not even allow you to connect to the server such as maps, vehicles, & appearently animations. Again, if the server is running a bot & you don't have that model, I know it hits the client up for a download (normally like the animations was, downloads on map change or if you don't have the map & have to download anyways) but I don't think it'll disallow clients to connect if they don't have the bot file.

As for the different CFGs, I can't quite put my finger on it but there is alot of room for allowing the mature animations for those who may not want it. I suppose it's better than placing the thing in a custom folder, I mean, if the server has mature animations enabled the client is going to go that route no matter what... I think I'm just going to use the Mature animations pack as a resource for coders mods. This is just becoming too problematic for such a little thing.

As far as "this really is my last post" goes, it's a free forum man. Speak your opinion if you like, we don't mind.

razorace
01-03-2004, 12:46 AM
Just go with one pack and just ask modders to add a mature content cvar. It makes much more sense than physically filtering stuff by altering the .gla or the cfg file.

Marker0077
01-03-2004, 09:48 AM
Well that whole fiasco was about the CM animations pack that's going in the client pack (which is for the public use & goes in "base") which is why it took a bit more thought to figure out.

For coders, I'm doing 2 different animations packs (clean cut & mature) & it's up to them to decide what they want to use. If a coder doesn't want those animations in there at all, there's no sense in causing more work on their end for something they're going to completely disable anyways.

razorace
01-03-2004, 11:36 PM
Just go with one pack, period. It's going to be a monster d/l and we don't want to force users to have to download multiple versions. The modders will have to make code modifications to add each animation anyway. They can pick and choose the clean/dirty versions then.

Marker0077
01-03-2004, 11:45 PM
I will more than likely just go with one pack for the client side pack distribution. Having more options is the best way to go obviously but whether or not it's worth the cost is something I'll have to decide during testing, which won't happen until I have something to work with.

There are a variety of ways of going about handling what it is I'm looking to accomplish. I may just be able to put the different animation .cfg files in the Mature pack (& as long as that doesn't produce a server side download & most importantly, force clients to use that pack) then voila! Problem solved.

Anyways, this whole thing is pointless without something to work with so until that glorious moment, I'm not worried about it.

I just wanted feedback from everyone on their thoughts, comments, any animation ideas they think would be good, etc; etc.

ASk
01-06-2004, 06:58 PM
From what I hear, Wudan & another developer are working on some sort of animations merging tool which would be useful but whether it is available or not, I do plan on doing whatever it is necessarry to make new animations available to all OJP supporters.


Poke
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107116

This also works in JA, just get the JA skeleton by Corto (was linked in JA Modelling), and use the already given .car file in the SDK

Marker0077
01-07-2004, 10:04 AM
lol, thanks Ask. I actually went looking for this thread because I didn't really check it out the first time you sent it my way & then when this project came about, this was the first place I wanted to go & checkout but not only couldn't find it, I couldn't remember who told me about it. I knew it was LF staff but forgot which one, Chris was my best guess & obviously it wasn't him.

Anyways, thanks man, I'll be sure to look into it... this time.

Marker0077 LATE EDIT: The link to the .xsi doesn't work. You &/or these guys should have put something like this on some mirrors or at least 1 solid one. Know how I can get a copy (contact info in sig)?

Also, I think now I am going to do a developers pack as well. Just a bunch of tools for developers with a variety of programs & probably some more thorough tutorials as well; Imparticularly with 3DS Max. Something to think about.

keshire
01-07-2004, 10:14 AM
This may be helpful for your dev pack.

http://files.jediknight3.com/redirect.php?dlid=23&PHPSESSID=cb25c02364ddb29d2c772d487b6152e6

MD3 import/export
GLM import
XSI import/export (includes the newest xsi importer)

for max 4.2

It was something I pulled together back when JKA was still beta.

Marker0077
01-07-2004, 10:29 AM
Ya I have all those man but thanks anyways. TBH, I'm not really thrilled with that new XSI importer. I use Max 5.1 & my animation bar gets all messed up when I use it. Now I'm sure it's nothing serious & I probably will include it in the pack with a warning but I'd prefer just creating my own JK3 skeleton than using that plugin. The chance of it messing something up is just not worth it to me.

All the models I am working on will be for JK2 & JK3 so I am hoping to find or create a script that will convert models from JK2 to JK3.

keshire
01-07-2004, 10:41 AM
I've yet to use the new importor also. I just didn't need to, becuase I had a working skeleton before the model tools were released.

And a script shouldn't be too hard. The differences aren't much.

Just be sure you get that lhang_bone thing right. ;)

Marker0077
01-17-2004, 03:27 PM
I apologize for not being online for such a long time but my internet went out, so I didn't have much of a choice. Anyways...

I've been talking with Ask & Corto in regards to their merging program. This will probably be the way I go about doing the animations packs but I am still going to look for alternative methods. I'm going to get in contact with quite a few of the Raven staff members in regards to this topic but I am somewhat skeptical on whether or not they will help. I am obviously hoping for the best.

The animations pack for use in "base" is definitely out because in order to add animations, you *must* change the source code & there's no way in hell I'm changing the source & putting that in "base"; That's the specific reason why custom folders were invented in the first place. We could change existing animations from one thing to another but the point of this project is to add animations, not remove (or change, however you want to phraze it) existing ones. Anyways, This should settle the dispute regarding the mature & clean cut versions of the pack, which will be enabled/disabled via a server side cvar (& probably a client side one as well, like the dismemberment is set up) & both of which will be defaulted to off.

I will probably begin on it sometime within the next few weeks. I apologize about the wait time but I have a LAN system that I need to re-do & that's probably going to keep me tied up for at least a week, possibly two. At that point, I think I am going to get the client pack & server pack out just to get some peoples attention, then possibly work on the animations pack from that point.

Is it just me or do you think maybe this project should be called Cool Packs? :-)

Anyways, I need staff people (/me takes a number), mainly modelers for Skins Pack A (I need modelers to import models, weight them, & get them in-game because I am making some changes to some existing models by improving some meshes (very few) & converting them to JK3 for JK3 & tying the default skins to the meshes for JK2 models). I think once the client pack & server pack is out there, people will be more interested in what CM is about & have more incentive to help out. We'll see.

razorace
01-17-2004, 07:46 PM
Since new animations would have to be in pair with some animation code changes, I suggest you just let it be a part of OJP.

Wudan
01-17-2004, 09:52 PM
You are trying to make new animations without taking the advice or heedings of people who've already done what you're trying to do (http://www.mt-wudan.com/dragon24.jpg).

Thanks, and good night.

Marker0077
01-18-2004, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Since new animations would have to be in pair with some animation code changes, I suggest you just let it be a part of OJP. This was always going to be apart of OJP, there's no way I'm not going to contribute this, it's just waaaaaay too big of a thing to not make available to the community. It's just that it will be apart of CM as well.Originally posted by Wudan
You are trying to make new animations without taking the advice or heedings of people who've already done what you're trying to do (http://www.mt-wudan.com/dragon24.jpg).

Thanks, and good night. Have no clue what you are on about. I got that you are trying to say something but if it's forget about trying to make new animations for JK3, then ya, I'm not listening.

You don't know what it is I can or can not do or who I do or do not have contact with. Any way you look at it, 2 heads are better than one. I appreciate your "heedings" but I don't give up so lightly. Especially when I haven't even begun yet.

If you really want to make this happen, I suggest you encourage people to finding away, not discouraging them. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you mean well but I'm not about to give up just because no one else could make it happen. I've talked with Ask, I've talked with Corto. I don't think this is going to be that big of a thing.

Wudan
01-18-2004, 01:31 PM
You really don't know what I'm talking about, do you?

Skill aside, it's not easy to do - I know it's possible (to add new animations), I'm just speaking from experience when I tell you that it's not easy.

Go ahead and show me that you can get a new animation in-game, and we can cut the logistics discussion and discuss what animations need added/fixed.

Marker0077
01-19-2004, 02:53 AM
Well like I said, I've talked with Ask & Corto. They have already got this working with JK2 & there is a problem with JK3 from what Corto said but after talking with Corto, I get the impression the guy doesn't even have JK3. He kept going on about the animations.cfg file for each model which in JK3, there is only 1 animations.cfg (in _humanoid foler) plus he was saying that you could just add stuff into the animations.cfg & the modified .gla & it would work which is *not* the case with new animations. Perhaps there was some miscommunication there but I'm not spending my time trying to prove myself worthy to the guy, which was the impression I got from him.

As far as the problem with doing JK3 animations goes, he said something about the skeletons being a different size. Appearently there is a problem with Ask's proggy with JK3 stuff & he doesn't know what to fix, so I will do what I can to figure out what the real deal is, get everyone informed & get the problem taken care of.

Anyways, the animations end of CM is taking a step up. I am redoing all the computers here on the LAN at the homefront but afterwards, the animations end of this is going to be my #1 priority because I don't know how much longer I am going to be online on a regular basis. If I can at minimum, pave the way for everyone else on this then that would obviously be benificial for all of us.

I'll be sure to keep everyone posted on the progress of current happenings with this.

Wudan
01-19-2004, 02:52 PM
Corto didn't write the program, ASk did. Corto, ASk and I worked out the technical stuff to get a working JK2 skeleton in XSI format.

You just need to recreate the JKA skeleton in XSI format, and leave the first frame of your animation in the 'base' pose (also called the DaVinci Pose), run it through carcass andmerge in with ASk's program.

It's that easy - now go do it.

keshire
01-20-2004, 05:35 AM
It's recreating the skeleton thats the problem. I've done some work on it and have tried quite a few methods. But the skeleton I've used which is a modified form of corto's, isn't working very well. After merging the animations usually deform themselves.

So it's probably best to wait until Wudan finishes his Dragon or a skeleton suitable for animating is released by someone with extensive knowledge in this area.

I'm pretty sure your just going to wind up frustrated on this endeaver.

*edit*
On another note what makes you so confident in your abilities to get this done in a timely manner? I'm just curious.

razorace
01-20-2004, 07:40 PM
Has anyone asked Raven for a usable animation skeleton for JK3, I'm sure they had to have one for some of the force powered animations.

Marker0077
01-20-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Wudan
It's that easy - now go do it. Sure thing, I think I'll make the first animation be the "giving the bird" taunt. :-)

I am going to try & get with ASk before I do the system change on the LAN here at home. I more than likely won't really be able to get into this until after the system change which could take up to 2 weeks, but again, the animations end of this has bumped up to priority #1 for me so rest assured I will get to it as soon as I can.Originally posted by keshire
But the skeleton I've used which is a modified form of corto's, isn't working very well.Well perhaps that's your problem. Have you tried creating your own? There's not a world of a difference between the JK2 & JK3 skeleton.Originally posted by keshire
So it's probably best to wait until Wudan finishes his Dragon or a skeleton suitable for animating is released by someone with extensive knowledge in this area.I wasn't even aware Wudan was working on the skeleton, from what ASk & RA was telling me, he was working on a different proggy. Cool, 2 heads are better than one. The more the merrier I say.Originally posted by keshire
On another note what makes you so confident in your abilities to get this done in a timely manner? I'm just curious.Who said anything about timely? Hell, I'll be lucky if I can even get started in a timely manner.

I never said anything about time man, all I am saying is... well let's just say that most people, not all just most people, do not put the same amount of effort into their work as I do. So no matter how good of a job you do or have done, that's going to be my state of mind (unless I know you) because that's just how people are in general. Even if I did know you though, I try to be as thorough as possible & would more than likely go through whatever it is again anyways.

I just find it hard to believe that someone can get JK2 animations working but are stumped on the JK3 animations - nope, soz, don't buy it. I think there's something really wrong with this picture & I intend to find out what.

Between my Raven contacts (which in all honestly are not really established, but contacts none the less) & the various coders, modelers, & other developers of sorts in the JK community & others as well, I think I have a fairly decent shot at making this happen; But we'll just see what happens.

I don't care to deal with non-constructive critisism no matter how hopeless or whatever the case may be, & I'm not trying to imply that you were, I'm just saying in general, non-constructive critisism is something I DO NOT appreciate at all.Originally posted by razorace
Has anyone asked Raven for a usable animation skeleton for JK3, I'm sure they had to have one for some of the force powered animations. I know ASk or Corto talked with them a bit regarding this (forgot whom, think it was Corto). The impression I got from whomever was Raven wasn't necessarily unwilling to help but not really willing to help either.

I do have a variety of Raven contacts, I will try & make use of them to get what information is needed but I first need to get myself more familiar with what the problems are in detail, any solutions that I/we can come up with, etc; etc. before I even ask them anything.

Marker0077
01-20-2004, 08:54 PM
I just got done chatting with ASk so here's an update for you guys...

When Corto made the JK2 skeleton, he ran ASk's program likeglamerge.exe _humanoid.gla -l& that dumped out information which was essential for creating the skeleton. After they released this skeleton for JK2 there was only like 1 person who tried to make new animations & I guess they didn't do it right. Now I don't know about you guys but if I spent a bunch of time putting something like this together & only 1 person tried to make animations, I'd be pretty pist & wouldn't want to do it over again, thus probably why Corto didn't & just tried modifying the JK2 skeleton into a JK3 skeleton.

The skeleton needs to be completely re-created & I need SoftImage XSI to do that. Now I do have this program but unfortunately, it does not work in Win98. It only works in Win2k & above OS's so this is not something I can start on until after the LAN change.

keshire
01-21-2004, 05:02 AM
Recreating the skeleton in Max would be a no go. If things are different like ASK and Corto suspect then yes you'd need these things.

Bone data from glamerge
and soft image to recreate it.

From what I understand ASK's bone data is only relative in SoftImage.

Wudan
01-21-2004, 02:51 PM
That's not entirely true - the skeleton can still be exported from Max to the XSI format in the same manner that a model is made: It's just that no one reproduced it in the right order or in the right hierarchy.

If I knew much of anything about XSI I could be more help, but I haven't really pressed to make more converters for this and that - I just deal with GLA animation in it's native format, using some very powerful math-magic.

I worked with Corto and ASk on this project for JK2, and still have very regular contact with Corto. ASk has given me the source to glamerge (not amazing, I think he'd give it to anybody), but I think I have a few tricks for improving on his methods.

Marker0077
01-22-2004, 12:05 AM
As far as animations were concerned, I was never planning on using 3DS Max. I have a bit more experience with 3DS but I'm still pretty much a n00b when it comes down to it. I was planning on learning how to use XSI to do this, I figured why work with something trying to imitate the real thing when I have the real thing. Yes, it'll be more of a pain in the butt to take the extra time to learn how to do this in XSI but the final product should be better.

As far as using ASk's code goes, if you think you can improve it then more power to you but I don't want to keep ASk out of the loop because he is still interested in the project.

I understand Wudan's & Corto's skepticism on just how serious I am about making this happen considering how most people are in general, however I am very serious about this & plan on doing everything possible to make this happen.

I think I mentioned this before but in case I didn't, I may end up not being online on a regular basis so that's why this has bumped up to priority #1. This is something that developers can use, not just players & to me, developers come first. At least the real ones do.

keshire
01-22-2004, 05:40 AM
Put me on that list of devs. I plan on doing some pretty extensive work on animations. My only set back is the skeleton.

I'd like to make more functional animations though.

But its up to Coders to help me along this route. I want to make new states like hanging off the side of cliffs and a sniper crouch/lay down.

With the cliff hanging I'd also go with two pull-ups. A regular and a jedi (like obi-wan in PM)

With the sniper laydown I'd like to add in the shuffling along the ground and the abiltiy to roll side-to-side like when your in the knockdown state.

Then I planned on helping Renegade with his scripted locks.

razorace
01-22-2004, 06:51 AM
Get us the animations and we will do the code.

Marker0077
01-22-2004, 06:46 PM
http://www.gamingforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=886

Have an idea for a new animation to add to the pack? Add it there. Matter fact, we should pretty much just close this thread down & post a sticky URL to forward people to where the AnimPack is now going to be discussed.Originally posted by keshire
Put me on that list of devs. I plan on doing some pretty extensive work on animations.There isn't really a "list" of developers. It pretty much works like OJP, you have an animation you'd like to see added, post about it in the forums & call dibs.

While I have posted some ideas in the AnimPack forum, I haven't called dibs on any because my first priority is getting the skeleton done. FYI.Originally posted by keshire
But its up to Coders to help me along this route. I want to make new states like hanging off the side of cliffs and a sniper crouch/lay down.

With the cliff hanging I'd also go with two pull-ups. A regular and a jedi (like obi-wan in PM)I like the idea of grabbing ledges & just hanging there. We'd probably want to use the use button in conjunction with that, then have people release the use button & just hit forward to climb up or something like that (because jump will do a force jump like Obi in Ep1 (Maul fight scene)).

I have removed the ledge flip post in the AnimPack forums & combined these 2 together because they will work hand in hand.Originally posted by keshire
With the sniper laydown I'd like to add in the shuffling along the ground and the abiltiy to roll side-to-side like when your in the knockdown state.I added this to the forums as well but in the future, I'd appreciate it if people posted their own ideas (now that I finally have the forums going).

keshire
01-23-2004, 05:46 AM
That'd be nice but gamingforums doesn't mesh well with websense, which is the web-blocker I use here at work. And i don't play on the net at home because its disrespectful to my wife.

*edit*

Also. after some testing it looks as if the standard xsi exporter for max that Raven released with JKO screws up the skeleton. I loaded up Corto's skeleton in SoftImageXSI EXP and then the same skeleton loaded up and then immediately exported from max. And low and behold.

The only other exporters I've found (through the SoftImage website) only export them out as NULLS.

Any ideas/suggestions?

And why doesn't this happen with custom skeletons? Is it becuase I've built the skeleton directly in MAX instead of pulling it from an outside XSI?

Marker0077
01-23-2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by keshire
That'd be nice but gamingforums doesn't mesh well with websense, which is the web-blocker I use here at work. And i don't play on the net at home because its disrespectful to my wife.You can add URLs to web-blockers.

Look, LucasForums has more restrictions (i.e. you can't attach files, avatars have to be smaller, any other features it does have is based on a credit system (or at least used to be) = gh3y). With GamingForums, there's no ads, faster load times, no restrictions, plus I may get my manager spot back there & even if I don't, I have friends there from when I was FN staff. There's no way I'm not going with GamingForums. The *ONLY* thing LucasForums has going for it is the traffic amount - that's it.Originally posted by keshire
Also. after some testing it looks as if the standard xsi exporter for max that Raven released with JKO screws up the skeleton.The XSI plugins that came with the JK2 SDK do not load the JK3 skeletons (that came with the JK3 SDK) correctly either. There is another XSI importer out there that does work but the animations bar messes up whenever I used it so it's obviously buggy & I didn't feel like dealing with it. Perhaps it can load the XSI files correctly but to me, it's just one more reason not to use Max for this.

I'll use Max to work on models. For the animations, I plan on keeping it straight up XSI all the way. That's what Raven used, that's what I'll use. Well, that's at least the plan so far, however, we all know things don't normally work out the way they were originally planned so we'll just have to wait & see what happens.

ASk
01-24-2004, 05:34 PM
ASk has given me the source to glamerge (not amazing, I think he'd give it to anybody)

Not precisely

First of all, I was returning a favor, after all, you gave me the source of glaneo

Second, I know you and the target that you strive to achieve, therefore my code can only help you.

Feel free to improve over it, the code is awfully messy as I look at it now. It could use some optimisations in terms of searching for data and manipulating it.

However, I do frown at you for that remark. That wasn't needed at all.

Emon
01-24-2004, 06:46 PM
What's the big deal with that comment? Doesn't seem so harmful to me. I don't even know why some of you are so protective of your source code in the first place.

razorace
01-25-2004, 05:12 AM
I think it's because he was the man behind the glassy null.

CortoCG
01-25-2004, 06:38 PM
What's the big deal with the animations stuff? Oh well. First of all, I DO HAVE JK3, right out from the shelf when it came out.

Now, marker0077, what makes you think that Mike Gummelt or even God is gonna help you out on this one? When they did nothing b4.

YOU DONT NEED SOFTIMAGE XSI to make new animations for JK2 or JK3. Gummelt is a programmer for Christ sakes, he has no clue on how the animations where made or compiled.

One piece of advice from the person who wasn't lazy enough to achieve the goal of making a suitable skeleton for animations for JK2: TAKE IT EASY, cuz if you try to run over the world in your quest for it, the world is gonna crush you silly. Many ppl told me, Ask and Wudan, that making new anims was impossible and about the end of the world, and bla bla bla. Guess what, they were al wrong, AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

I also take you're new on this of researching stuff, so, read first and learn. Then talk a lot.

As I'm posting this I'm gonna make a skelly suitable for animations for JK3, with meshes as bones and not nulls, cuz seems like you ppl find it difficult to animate that way :confused: , even you talk like experts.

Adiós compadres.

Marker0077
01-26-2004, 02:30 AM
Sorry about the delay on the post people but I am going to be busy with this LAN change for some time. I don't even have the server done yet but I am close, then after that I have 3 or 4 more PC's to take care of so please try & bare with me.Originally posted by Emon
What's the big deal with that comment? Doesn't seem so harmful to me.I think it was taken out of context but I see what ASk is saying. It does somewhat appear that he was degrading ASk's work but I don't think it was meant like that.Originally posted by Emon
I don't even know why some of you are so protective of your source code in the first place. Ever had someone steal something from you? There's all kinds of wannabes & thieves out there man, you need to protect your work. It's not a matter of trust, it's a business thing. I can think of a variety of obvious reasons why an authors work should be protected, I can't think of 1 good reason why it shouldn't. It's just better to have something & not need it than to need something & not have it. At least that's my opinion.Originally posted by CortoCG
What's the big deal with the animations stuff?I think this is pretty self explanitory but I'll answer the question. You can do a variety of things with new animations, make new moves, new taunts, all kinds of cool stuff - that's what the big deal is.

There's alot of people who want to make alot of things happen but can't due to lack of new animations, this will be an animation pack for everyones needs. Should be kick arse.Originally posted by CortoCG
Now, marker0077, what makes you think that Mike Gummelt or even God is gonna help you out on this one? When they did nothing b4.umm, I think you are taking what I said out of context dude, you need to re-read what I posted.

I didn't say that anyone would respond (which it seems to me that you are implying, anyone please correct me if that's not how it appeared to them), matter fact I said something along the lines of they may not respond at all.

What I do know is where there's a will, there's a way & I said I am going to try my best, nothing more. I have tons of contacts, perhaps if they see someone trying hard enough they'll listen. Perhaps not. We'll see.Originally posted by CortoCG
YOU DONT NEED SOFTIMAGE XSI to make new animations for JK2 or JK3. Gummelt is a programmer for Christ sakes, he has no clue on how the animations where made or compiled.Mike Gummelt is apart of the team & he talks with the other staff, I'm thinking someone told him that that's what they used. Now perhaps you do not *need* Softimage XSI to do this but this is what I was told by ASk (I think) & this is what Mike Gummelt said in an interview. Considering the file format is based on the program, I don't think using it is going to hurt. If anything, the animations should come out better, I mean hell, if it's good enough for the makers of Shrek & the Animatrix & whatever other movies, I think it's certainly good enough for us but I could be wrong.

Once I have the LAN change done, this is my #1 priority. I can't give more than that.Originally posted by CortoCG
...AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.I don't think I ever said that you didn't know what you were talking about, at least not to that extent. You made a working skeleton for JK2 so that obviously means, at the very minimum, you know enough about this to get the job done but I tried coming to you & got the whole "animations in each folder" thing when we were only talking about the _humanoid skeleton & what you told me just totally didn't add up. Now perhaps there was some miscommunication there but when I tried to clarify, you just didn't want to talk (pretty much wouldn't at that point).

I'm guessing you just saw me as one of the other people out there that came your way whom are just not willing to get off their lazy bum & make this happen properly, which considering some of the BS you've had to put up with in the past, I can understand & even relate to that - to an extent. But, if you shut down every person that comes your way or at stay negative regarding the topic to the very minumum, that's just taking it too far. That's just my opinion though.

I told you before & I'll tell you again, I'm going to do everything I can to make this happen, with or without your help. If you want to help me out, great, can always use more knowledge & more help but I AM NOT going to waste my time proving myself to you. I have more important things to do. Either help or don't.Originally posted by CortoCG
I also take you're new on this of researching stuff, so, read first and learn. Then talk a lot.Is english your first language? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm being dead serious, is english your first language?

I didn't say "I know this" or "I know that", I said "here's the gameplan so far" - that's it, you are (yet again) taking what I am saying out of context.

I realize that you & I got off on a bad foot but this is precisely why. Things are taken out of context, some of which implies disrespect, & some of us seem to be so cocky that it appears rude to others. As for me, I'm not trying to be cocky here, I just have confidence in my ability to make things happen when you put enough effort into something.

Just because you might check something out & then I check it out again afterwards, that doesn't imply that I think you are not capable of handling whatever situation, it just means that I am being thorough & double checking (& sometimes even triple checking) things out because that is just the professional thing to do IMO. Now this was just an example, not something that actually happened. I only brought it up because I just get the impression that this is the type of mentality you hold when dealing with me.Originally posted by CortoCG
...I'm gonna make a skelly suitable for animations for JK3...Cool I apreciate the help. With the workload I have I can really use it but if the skeleton isn't in public use under OJP terms, then I'm not using it for the AnimPack. I think why is pretty obvious.

Thanks for the feedback folks, I'll post again when I have time.

Emon
01-26-2004, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by Marker0077 There's all kinds of wannabes & thieves out there man, you need to protect your work.[/B]

Of course. But the rapidly growing open source community has millions of contributors and all have their work protected. I was more thinking along the lines of the, "MINE MINE MINE I WANT FAME!" attitude a lot of people have, although I don't think that applies to ASk.

Marker0077
01-26-2004, 07:47 AM
Unless he registers it at the copyright office or has something else to prove the work is his, it's his word against whomever else.

In all reality, I do agree with you & do not think it will be a problem but it's ASk's call & program & I can understand him wanting to protect it. He allows us to use it so I really don't see the what the big deal is either way.

As far as "MINE MINE" goes, the only person that fits in that category is Lee Oattes (just my opinion). I can understand why all the other coders do not have their mod being open source, at least the ones I personally know. Take Chosen One for example, he let his mod be public open source & he had a few different people remove his name from the code & try & pass it off as their own. Some of which added abusive commands, then you have people who may use the code but give no credit which is almost the same thing.

Look at it this way, what good is having the code be open source going to do? ASk is pretty much already going to let us use his code (at least I would think he would if someone asked him), so what's the point? For him to not release it publically, he protects his work work a little better & those who want to use it can. That's a win win if you ask me.

Emon
01-27-2004, 05:10 AM
I understand and respect his decision, I was only speaking in general.

ASk
01-27-2004, 02:43 PM
FYI, the first stable version of GLAMerge, that actually would work IF the skeleton was right (it was the same one as the version of it in the unedited version of the howto post) - did I confuse you yet? - had the source publically available for about 6 months.

Guess how many downloads of it I got? yes, that's right, about 3.

So I figured it out, if nobody wanted it, I would not bother with it anymore. Those that ask me for it, the ones that still are involved in modding and can use the source code to benefit from it, get it. I.E Wudan, Razor Ace, Tchouky.

razorace
01-27-2004, 07:01 PM
Well, those that do always outnumber those that want.

Marker0077
01-28-2004, 06:55 AM
Most people want to use the mods, not make them. Sure they may say they are interested in making them at times & even genuinely mean it, until they find out what the workload is like.

Besides, explaining how to do every little thing can be more frustrating & time consuming than just doing it yourself.

If a person really wants to make something happen, they'll try & figure things out for themselves & then only ask about the things they are stumped on, or they may just ask you about a topic if they happen to be speaking with you at the time.

keshire
01-31-2004, 12:54 PM
Marker0077 , I think your doing a good job of alienating the people who could help you out. They have no interest in making new animations obviously and would only be helping as a favor. You should treat it as such.

Other than that. Feel free to email me at jmattison@scottrade.com and maybe we can swap notes.

Marker0077
01-31-2004, 10:36 PM
I wouldn't say I'm "alienating" anyone, I have no problem with helping people out but I get people who want to take up my time with super n00b stuff like "how do I make a skin" & again, I have no problem with helping even if it's that but I just don't want to waste my time going into detail with such common place knowledge. There are forums for this kind of thing.

The only thing that really gets on my nerves are people who don't try. They just want someone to tell them everything - screw that. Try & figure it out on your own & if you are still having problems, then let me know. This is the #1 reason why I say "do you know of some place that I can go to learn about this stuff" when I talk to people whom have more knowledge in whatever area than I do.

Anyways, as far as swapping notes goes, sounds good. Right now I'm having a terrible time with trying to figure out how the 2k/XP networking system works. The server is 2k & it's real old (100 mhz, which is why it's a server & not a workstation) & the other clients are XP & well... lets just say it's not going as smoothly as I originally anticipated. The point is my time is really pre-occupied at the moment. I want to go back to modding but what can I do, we have to have working workstations. If any of you have experience with 2k/XP networking & are willing to help, please let me know.

As for Corto's JK3 skeleton, is that going to be released under OJP terms (submitted to OJP)?

ASk
02-01-2004, 10:52 AM
I doubt so
Most likely something along of the lines

'if you use this, make sure to add my name to list of credits'

To be honest, I myself am not entirely siding with OJP philosophy :)

Marker0077
02-02-2004, 12:35 PM
Well adding to the credits was never an issue, credit being given is a given in OJP and CM. As far as "not entirely siding with OJP philosophy" goes, how so?

The only "philosophy" I am aware of is sharing. Not allowing people to use your work is one thing, using other peoples work & not allowing people to use your work is another - that's the only "philosophy" I'm aware of & I totally agree with. TBH, I can't understand how any honest person couldn't.

My only concern here is not being on friendly terms with Corto in the future; For example, we use the skeleton in the AnimPacks & then in the future there is more "miscommunication" that leads to Corto pulling a "you can't use my toys anymore" type thing - screw that. The AnimPack is a public resource & I am not going to put it in that type of a situation. If it's not released to OJP, CM, or some form of secure public use then I'm not using it.

You guys saw what happened with the JK2 animations development, how many people do you think you are going to find that are serious about doing new animations in JK3? If Corto is going to make the skeleton, he may as well let us use it & this is the only way we will (we being CM staff & AnimPack supporters/contributors). Of course, you guys could always start an AnimPack project of your own.

Now perhaps Corto isn't the type of person to do that, I have no idea because I don't know the guy personally but whether he is or isn't is irrelevent. After the whole Duelers ordeal, my philosophy is "business is business" & the thing needs to not necessarily be put in public domain, but in some form of secure public use.

Marker0077 LATE EDIT: Another thing I'd like to say is that I do apologize about the little bit of inconvenience this does create; Trust me, it's more of an inconvenience for me than anyone else. Like I said before, after the whole Duelers ordeal, I am covering my ass from now on. It's better to have something & not need it than to need something & not have it.

I'd be willing to write up a terms of agreement that states we are not permitted to allow other people use of the skeleton & the only thing that we are permitted to do with it is use it in the AnimPack project, which is of course going to be used in other mods but all the other mods use a version of AnimPack. Credit being given will of course be in the agreement but credit being given is a HUGE thing with me, so rest assured on that. I normally include links to email/URL that authors would like included etc; etc.

keshire
02-07-2004, 07:48 AM
I already made that skelly. It only needs tweaking to be sure it's perfect. I would've released it yesterday, but I didn't have the _humanoid.gla file at work, lol. And when I got home, well I spent all the time I could with my girlfriend, so... Well. I think I'll dedicate more time tonight after work, since I'll be alone for about 5 hours or so. - Corto

Marker0077
02-07-2004, 10:48 AM
Corto, I'm in no rush. I'll be tied up for at least another week with this LAN thing. I do however need the skeleton submitted to OJP or for you & I to come to some sort of an agreement so I can always use the skeleton for the AnimPack regardless of whether or not we ever "miscommunicate" in the future. Credits being given towards ANYONE whom helped out with this will be given along with any email & URL links that they would like. Due credit is mandatory with me.

I sincerely never meant any offense towards you & I hope the feeling is mutual but business is business & I've been burnt before in the past. I can think of obvious reasons why I should insist on doing this agreement or submittal to OJP, I can't think of 1 reason why I shouldn't; Aside from saving myself some extra work.

Let me know where you stand with that. If it's not acceptable to you then I'll just have to make my own, which I really do not want to do but I need security with the project.

Thanks for everyones time.

keshire
02-07-2004, 10:53 AM
Corto, I'm in no rush.

But I am. Your not the only animator around here.

Duncan
Bloodriot(I know he checks in every once in awhile)
And Myself

have expressed a desire to tackle some new anims.

keshire
02-07-2004, 10:59 AM
And as far as submitting animations to OJP.

I believe it should be in xsi format.
For each individual animation sequence.

If this is open source then the animations should be modifiable too. And I will put my money were my mouth is.

If Monsoontide submits his Acklay to OJP, I'll cough up my accompanying xsi files.

Otherwise you'll all have to settle for my future works. ;)

Marker0077
02-07-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by keshire
But I am. Your not the only animator around here.

Duncan
Bloodriot(I know he checks in every once in awhile)
And Myself

have expressed a desire to tackle some new anims. I wasn't aware that there was even any other animators willing to realistically play ball. This is great. I think we should work together or at least allow me to add whatever animations you guys create to the CM AnimPack.Originally posted by keshire
And as far as submitting animations to OJP.

I believe it should be in xsi format.
For each individual animation sequence.Ummm, I think you are misinterpreting what AnimPack is. We create new animations, compile the .GLA, then we put a source together that already has the coding needed done plus whatever other improvements we think should be in there like bug fixes for example, then that's what gets submitted to OJP. When we put together new animations & add it, we submit a new version of AnimPack to OJP. Get it?

The source code will be submitted as well but it may be a seperate submission. I haven't worked out all the detail but that's the gameplan I have so far. I just want this to be a resource for coders, that's the main concept of AnimPack but I will make it a stand-alone mod as well.

Any .XSI files or maybe even actual code will all be released in the CM developers pack... maybe, like I said, there's still some things to work out.

razorace
02-07-2004, 08:22 PM
Since the gla merger program only works on .gla files. I suggest that all _humanoid animations be submitted in .gla format. Since the merger program isn't set up for non-humanoid animation files, they should be submitted in a compiled .gla form and with a source .XSI so people can modify them.

Marker0077
02-08-2004, 12:50 AM
Last night when I posted, I was tired & drinking so I wasn't thinking too clearly so please forgive me for not clarifying right away.

1 of the things that are an ABSOLUTE MUST with me is copyright in part or in whole; For example, with all the models I put out I include a CM mesh that identifies the work as coming from CM staff. I do this in case someone ever tries to steal my work again, they have to remove the CM mesh in order to use it so they may as well be using the original authors work (which is what I want them to do in the first place).

The point is, if I can't claim partial copyright by putting this out there in .XSI format, then I probably won't do it. Like if I put the .max file out there for the models, people could just remove the CM mesh & voila, I have no legal right to claim anything. The same concept applies to these animation files, they can remove the animations that I made & voila, same boat.

The gameplan for me is, if someone makes up some animations & wants them added, I (or another CM staff member/supporter) will add them to the pack, then it becomes available in the next AnimPack version.

The source code is a given, I have to submit that but I don't really see why I *have* to submit the existing animations. The whole point of AnimPack is a pack of all new animations, if there's new animations out there, it belongs in AnimPack & that's what coders should be using.

It's good to know there are other people out there that are serious about doing new animations & tbh, I could really use someone to run the AnimPack portion for the most part. The only thing I am claiming dibs on is the installers, manuals, & a few animations but I still have sooooooooooooooooo much stuff to do & I'm dropping all of it to do this AnimPack project. If any of you are interested in becoming staff or supporters, just let me know.

razorace
02-08-2004, 04:46 AM
Anyway, I think we really need to have some results before continuing this discussion.

Marker0077
02-10-2004, 06:17 AM
Well while I agree that we need some results here, there's more to this than just that. I apologize if some of my methods are not so pleasing to some of you, but walk a mile in my duelers shoes & you'll understand exactly where I am coming from. Trust me, I don't like it any more than anyone else (especially considering this is more workload on my end - not yours (not really)) but the worst case scenario is just not worth it to me.

Anyways, gameplan is important. This is a pretty big project & I think it's also important that we are all on the same page with all of this so there are no misconceptions or misinterpretations about anything.

New CM Standards Concept (Requires Hardcoding)
I wanted to run this idea past you guys & get some feedback. I'm personally a stickler for making sure that when a user joins a server, there's no cheating or abilities that are very similar to cheating available.

I'm not sure how aware all of you are with the stuff you can do with .sab files but you can do alot. You can increase the damage amount, the speed, the radius of the blade, all kinds of stuff & this is all server-side & it does not give any notification that any changes have been made (like there is when cheat mode is enabled). This is a big concern for me....

I want a CVar specifically for disabling all .pk3 files that contain modifications of .sab files (or possibly all .pk3 files if need be) aside from CM hilt packs. When enabled it does let CM packs (which have gone through standards) be used, depending upon which level of standards the CVar is set to. This checks the filesize for authenticity verification.

When set to...
0 = Disabled, any .pk3 may be used.

1 = Any level 1 Standard Hilt pack may be used. Level 1 hilts are basically the standard hilts, all hilts are *exactly* the same, they just look different.

2 = Any level 2 Standard Hilt pack may be used. Level 2 hilts are slightly modified but balanced hilts none-the-less, like some hilts (which are configured all via .sab files) may be permitted to allow the blue lunge & red forward slash in all stances, however, it does not allow the third specials to be used (both attack buttons at same time), etc; etc.

3 = Any level 3 Standard Hilt pack may be used, which in all reality are non-standard hilts but I may change the name to level 3 standards. These standards permit the blade to be positioned differently which is a necessity for some hilts such as the Chainsaw hilt (which positions the blade more to the right than the standard) & the Schwartz hilt (which positions the blade closer to the hand itself since it is a ring & not a normal hilted blade), etc; etc.

The beauty of this is the client has the availability to see what type of server whomever is hosting before they join where now, they have no clue. I intend on informing the public how they may filter out specific types of servers so that they view only the types of servers they would like to play on via the Cool Mods Manual.

I'm not exactly sure what is & what is not possible coding-wise for eliminating the use of possible cheating-like abilities via .sab files so I was hoping you guys could shed some light on this subject, give me your opinion &/or other commentary in regards to that.

razorace
02-10-2004, 06:31 AM
Makes sense to me. Now you just have to find someone to do it. :)

keshire
02-10-2004, 08:12 AM
I'm not exactly sure what is & what is not possible coding-wise for eliminating the use of possible cheating-like abilities via .sab files so I was hoping you guys could shed some light on this subject, give me your opinion &/or other commentary in regards to that.

Start pulling out the flags.

Leave the customizing ones and pull the balance changing ones.

keshire
02-10-2004, 08:18 AM
Like so...

soundOn=yes
soundLoop=yes
soundOff=yes

saberLength=tighter limit
saberRadius=tighter limit

moveSpeedScale=NO!!!!
animSpeedScale=NO!!!
knockbackScale=NO!!!
damageScale=NO!!!
And ditto for the splash flags etc.

Also reduce damage for each blade after the second blade because as you know hilts support up to 7 blades.

Marker0077
02-10-2004, 12:30 PM
I like the pulling the flag concept, this way it can still be secure & people may use hilts that aren't included in CM, however, this still doesn't answer my question in regards to the CM hilt packs. I don't change the damage or radius or anything like that but with certain hilts, as I said before, have specials set differently (no both attack buttons specials but lunge & rdfa in all stances) & I want the CM packs to be the ONLY packs allowed to make those kinds of changes.

Another thing is with the CM packs, I probably wouldn't decrease the damage amount for multi-bladed weapons. I would more than likely cripple those types of hilts differently via the CM packs. As for non-CM packs, then yes I suppose this would be the best fix for that. In all reality though, when this CVar is set to 1, those types of weapons should not even be available. It kind of defeats the purpose.

Is authenticity verification for the CM packs possible via the code?

keshire
02-10-2004, 12:47 PM
The adding of the other attacks to all stances is rediculous, unneeded and unbalanced. In my opinion.

But I'd leave in the option of turning off certain commands.

And as far as limiting what they can change. I've always wondered if you can encrypt a pk3 like a zip or rar. And decrypt it in code.

Marker0077
02-10-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by keshire
The adding of the other attacks to all stances is rediculous, unneeded and unbalanced. In my opinion.Normally you can do 6 different specials with a single saber. The both attack buttons special is 3 since there is a different one for each stance, the lunge, the rdfa, & the ydfa.

With the way I am saying you can do it, you only have 2 specials; The lunge & the rdfa but I may change that to ydfa. It's a little different but I wouldn't say it's unbalanced. Lunge is the probably the most used counter-attack move there is & the new stance cycle speed is alot slower than that of JK2 - so that's a plus; But not having the both attack specials is taking away alot also.Originally posted by keshire
And as far as limiting what they can change. I've always wondered if you can encrypt a pk3 like a zip or rar. And decrypt it in code. That's not what I had in mind. This stuff needs to work in the base game as well, so this wouldn't fly with me even if we could get it working. I was thinking of having the code check the filesize. If anyone made any modifications to the pack, that would change; Especially if it the compression rate is changed specifically for throwing off the standard compression filesize.

razorace
02-11-2004, 12:11 AM
The problem with checksum file protection is that someone can easily make the checksum for the .pk3s match by adding some fluff to the .pk3. So, that makes setting servers to "pure" totally useless.

Marker0077
02-11-2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by razorace
The problem with checksum file protection is that someone can easily make the checksum for the .pk3s match by adding some fluff to the .pk3. So, that makes setting servers to "pure" totally useless. You lost me, I don't see why you think purity would be useless. We're not preventing other mods from being used, we're just making it so that the CM pack (which has been checksum verified) is the only pack that has permission to make certain types of changes via .sab files, like the different specials setup - that's all. The higher the CVar is set to, the more leanient the standards.

Again, the beauty of this is clients will be able to tell what kind of server this is before they even join & they can rest assured that no tampering has been made to the server.

Also, WinZip doesn't support filesize matching. Now I think WinARJ does but I don't think it's that exact. Either way though, it's more security. Unless anyone has another idea, this is what we've got to work with.

keshire
02-11-2004, 08:49 AM
I know you like to cover your ass and all, but I really think this is all unneccessary.

If somebody wants to make the changes they want, they're going to find a way to do it despite any checks you put in place, especially if these changes are all stored externally.

As it is, I'd just CVAR the balance changing flags and leave it at that.

CVAR hilt_flags 0/1

*edit*
Oh I think i misunderstood what you were proposing. You want the flags in your hilts to work but not any hilts outside of your mod.

If that is the case, I really don't think you should mandate what hilts people can and can't use.

But an idea would be a seperate file with the hilt names that are allowed thier flags.

such as
coolhilts.txt

or one big .sab like the saber.sab that stores all the single player hilts.

coolhilts.sab with the all the combined hilt definitions.

razorace
02-11-2004, 02:11 PM
I think the best solution would be to have levels of acceptable .sab settings that can be displayed/controlled with a cvar.

Doing anything for just individual files would be a pain-in-the-butt timewise and is sort of biased (it's not really fair to allow your packs to override the cvar control when everything else doesn't).

Marker0077
02-11-2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by keshire
I know you like to cover your ass and all, but I really think this is all unneccessary.

If somebody wants to make the changes they want, they're going to find a way to do it despite any checks you put in place, especially if these changes are all stored externally.You easily seem to forget that most people out there are n00bs. They don't even know all of what they can do with the .sab files, when they do, the filesize check alone will be a big hurdle for even some of us to climb. We don't have any proggies that do exact matches down to the byte so that leaves them with hacking the code. How many of them do you think are going to be able to do that?

Sorry, I don't agree. This is neccessary because all someone has to do is add a .sab file that makes his reborn hilt do twice as much damage as all the other hilts & voila, you have an easy cheat or at least a decent example of how it can work. I feel it's our responsibility as the leading developers of this community to prevent this type of gamplay.Originally posted by keshire
As it is, I'd just CVAR the balance changing flags and leave it at that.

CVAR hilt_flags 0/1Well we may have no choice if this checksum thing doesn't work out. I'll do some investigating on how easy it is to do filesize matching later today.Originally posted by keshire
Oh I think i misunderstood what you were proposing. You want the flags in your hilts to work but not any hilts outside of your mod.Right but you have to realize that there are multiple levels of standards. The primary standard has all the hilts being the exact same.

Now that I think about it, we may have to make option 2 be what I had planned for option 1 & make option 1 be CM packs only because with CM packs the blades are in the exact same spot. That may or may not be the case with other hilt packs.Originally posted by keshire
But an idea would be a seperate file with the hilt names that are allowed thier flags.

such as
coolhilts.txt

or one big .sab like the saber.sab that stores all the single player hilts.

coolhilts.sab with the all the combined hilt definitionsAnd how is that any different from how it is now? What I am proposing is hardcode protection, your suggesting we bring it back into universal text files; Or am I misunderstanding?Originally posted by razorace
I think the best solution would be to have levels of acceptable .sab settings that can be displayed/controlled with a cvar.Ya I think you may be right. I was planning on having this with or without the filesize checking protection. I think what's going to really make or break that is the testing I do later on. If anyone can just fire up WinARJ & match up the filesize, it totally defeats the purpose.Originally posted by razorace
Doing anything for just individual files would be a pain-in-the-butt timewise and is sort of biased...Not really, this is a CM based mod & we would only be doing this for a few CM files.Originally posted by razorace
...(it's not really fair to allow your packs to override the cvar control when everything else doesn't)Not really, CM hilt packs have gone through standards, other hilt packs have not. That's the point.

Also, whether or not a CM pack would be usable or not would also depend on the settings of the CVar. If the CVar is set to "1", then the CM non-standard hilt packs would not be permitted to be used.

I have another question. Can the code search .pk3 files to see whether or not a .sab file is in it? I think you can see where I am going with this. This is a HUGE factor in this feature. I can't have sound mods, for example, be blocked because of .sab protection.

I really don't want to make this complicated & without me being an actual coder, it's harder for me to come to the most sensable solution so I am just throwing out some ideas here. I think for now we should just go with certain levels of standards. This would probably be the easiest way of going about handling this for now considering this is something I think we all wanted to do with or without the filesize chekcing. Once that is put together, we can possibly add on from there.

After I do some testing on the filesize matching, I'll go over all the .sab options & what levels I think those should be put at, post them, then we'll all go from there.

Wudan
02-11-2004, 07:13 PM
(please) Knock it off, this pk3 .sab argument is just garbage, and I don't think I'm the only one who thinks it.

If you're right, then pure servers and impure alike are going to be running rampant with crazy guys with saber nunchuks that deal too much damage.

Let's examine - where is the damage dealt? The server. What files are checked to see how much damage a .sab does? The server's files? I thought so.

I don't really care if I'm wrong, either, because this hacking is a non-existant problem.

I really don't see how we got from 'I'm going to make new animations" to this discussion. Talk about de-railed threads.

Please, can we talk about how many people think they will make new animations versus how many people don't think it will happen.

I vote that it'll happen.

razorace
02-11-2004, 07:16 PM
Why not just hardcode the standards and then forget about the checksum stuff? It would be much easier to do and would result in better cheat protection.

Besides, this seems like a minor issue to me. I've yet to hear anyone complain about *.sabs being used for cheating.

Marker0077
02-12-2004, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by Wudan
If you're right, then pure servers and impure alike are going to be running rampant with crazy guys with saber nunchuks that deal too much damage.The 2x the saber damage was an exageration. I was thinking the host would boost the damage in smaller amounts such as 10% or 15% which would be undetectable.Originally posted by Wudan
Let's examine - where is the damage dealt? The server. What files are checked to see how much damage a .sab does? The server's files? I thought so.I'm talking about a a CVar that when enabled, it protects against modified .sab files via hardcode - the server can't change that if the CVar is enabled; Unless the host is a coder, in which case you aren't really going to be able to stop them. At that point, all you can do is reason with them & inform the community on what type of mod they put out there.Originally posted by Wudan
I don't really care if I'm wrong, either, because this hacking is a non-existant problem.How do you know? Tell me you haven't gone onto a server & seen people take other people out on rather simple hits. Now I'm sure most of the time it's just head hit or whatever but the point is there is no way to tell. With this CVar enabled, clients are protected.

You can't say this is a non-existant problem because unless they have extremely increased the damage, there is no way to tell.Originally posted by Wudan
I really don't see how we got from 'I'm going to make new animations" to this discussion. Talk about de-railed threads.The animations need to be hardcoded, this is something else that should go in the hardcode.Originally posted by Wudan
Please, can we talk about how many people think they will make new animations versus how many people don't think it will happen.I wasn't aware that anyone was even doubtful. Granted, the process is taking longer than expected, & I apologize for that but I have to deal with this stuff at home before I can venture onto this. It's not optional for me, what about everyone else?

Look, if you don't like the idea then a simple "I don't like the idea, don't see the point" or whatever would suffice. Getting pist off about something isn't going to change anything. If you don't like it then don't use it but don't get pist off at me because I'm trying to make the game more secure or because I couldn't think of the best way of going about handling it on the first try. Calm down before you post please.Originally posted by razorace
Why not just hardcode the standards and then forget about the checksum stuff? It would be much easier to do and would result in better cheat protection.The mods need to work in base also, that's why. For now I think simply making certain .sab file options disabled & the higher the number, the more options enabled is the best way to go about handling this. As for this whole checksum bit, we'll see but first things first.

Also, I'm pretty sure all the stuff from OJP Basic will go in the AnimPack code (possibly the JAR features as well, nothing for sure on that yet). Is the value of g_saberdamagescale stored in a sets like CVar (so what it's set to can be viewed from the net)?Originally posted by razorace
Besides, this seems like a minor issue to me. I've yet to hear anyone complain about *.sabs being used for cheating.Why would they, unless people are setting the damage extremely high, they would have no clue - hell, the .sab stuff is set up VERY similar to how MoH is. Alot of times in MoH, the server will set a certain gun to do 0 damage instead of just removing it, you'll be using a gun for awhile not even knowing it's not doing any damage until you go to shoot someone in the head or something. Now granted, this would be pretty easy to spot out in Duel servers but what about FFA where there's no one watching each player?

Also, this wasn't very common place at first in MoH, as time went on it did however. Modifying .sab files isn't like writing code, ,pre & more people WILL eventually figure this stuff out as time goes on. I think we should offer some sort of protection against that type of gameplay.

The bottom line is just because someone isn't complaining about cheating, that doesn't mean there isn't people out there cheating. For all you know, you could have been playing with cheaters & not even known it. This provides alot more re-assurance that you are playing a fair game.

keshire
02-12-2004, 05:46 AM
Like I said. the game balance changing flags in the .sabs shouldn't even be there.

In fact they weren't until the patch.
Pull out the scaling and splash flags and that should solve any problem you have. This should be done for the base game if you ask me. Its just as bad as abusive admin commands.

Take those out and add in creative ways of further customizing hilts and players should be satisfied. And cheating should be averted.

*edit*
Also length and radius of the blade should be limited. Make it go up in steps of five and it should be obvious if someone changes it. Unlike now where it can be altered by one or two with no noticable effect.

razorace
02-12-2004, 09:33 AM
Wudan is correct. Please move this non-animation discussion to another thread or forum. I see that Kenshire has already bumped up the approprate thread (here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117038)) for you to use.

Marker0077
02-12-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by keshire
Like I said. the game balance changing flags in the .sabs shouldn't even be there.Well I see where Raven was going with this & think it's a cool idea, I just don't think it should be set up as it is. Hardcode would have been a better way of handling this. With the way it is now, it just leaves too much room for cheating.Originally posted by keshire
In fact they weren't until the patch.Actually that's not true. Alot of these features were available before the patch it's just that there was alot more available after the patch; Or at least that's what the saber documentation states.Originally posted by keshire
Pull out the scaling and splash flags and that should solve any problem you have. This should be done for the base game if you ask me. Its just as bad as abusive admin commands.#1) I agree with you that the base game should be set up this way (because all other mods would be set up in the same manner), however, the base game is Raven's territory & we're obviously not going to be modifying that. Now I don't think you were suggesting we should, I just wanted to clarify.

#2) I'm not looking to take away features. If someone wants to host this type of game I think that's fine, however, the client has the right to know if that's the type of game being hosted before they even join. That's what this will accomplish.Originally posted by keshire
Take those out and add in creative ways of further customizing hilts and players should be satisfied. And cheating should be averted.

*edit*
Also length and radius of the blade should be limited. Make it go up in steps of five and it should be obvious if someone changes it. Unlike now where it can be altered by one or two with no noticable effect.The radius & length are already capped. Here's what I have in mind for the settings...

Level 1 Protection Allows
I'm not including the variables that will have no protection against them such as saberType (i.e. staff/single), saberModel (path to the model), saberColor, various sound variables, etc; etc. These are the types of variables that all levels of protection allow (level 0 is no protection, 1 or 2 will be the default). I'm only including the grey area type variables in the level 1 protection list section.

twoHanded: Whether or not it requires 2 hands (makes it restrict force powers but makes it stronger in locks or parries).

When this is enabled, "numBlades" is automatically set to 2.

noIdleEffect: When set to 0, this allows the saber to do idle damage like it did in JK2, now I don't know about the rest of you but I don't know why this was ever defaulted to enabled. I can see why with sword-type hilts, but not lightsaber blades.

Level 2 Protection Allows
This is mainly intended for permitting sword-type hilts to be used.

twoHanded: This is setup exactly the same as when the .sab protection CVar is set to 1.

bounceOnWalls: Allows blades to bounce off of walls instead of going through them.

noWallMarks/noWallMarks2: Self-explanitory.

noDlight/noDlight2: No dynamic lighting (reflection of light blade on the floor, walls, etc; etc.)

noBlade/noBlade2: No light blade.

noClashFlare/noClashFlare2: The saber will not do the big, white clash flare with other sabers.

noManualDeactivate: Sabers can not manually be enabled/disabled.

onInWater: Weapon stays active even in water.

I like this feature but for sword-like hilts, I think the animspeed should be reduced when in water.

Level 3 Protection Allows
This is for permitting small variances on some of the hilts, such as it can use blue lunge & yellow dfa in any stance, however, all other specials are not permitted or it can use blue lunge & red dfa in any stance, however, all other specials are not permitted, as well as blue stance etc; etc. All of these types of hilts will be signified by the name of the hilt like 1-Luke or something similar.

saberStyle: What one style it's limited to, if any.

saberStyleLearned: What styles they should get when they are given this saber.

saberStyleForbidden: What styles *cannot* be used with this saber.

forceRestrict: What force powers it restricts.

singleBladeStyle: Makes it so that you use a different style if you only have the first blade active.

singleBladeThrowable: Makes it so that you can throw this saber if only the first blade is on.

noRollStab: Self-Explanitory.

noPullAttack: Self-Explanitory.

noBackAttack: Self-Explanitory.

noStabDown: Self-Explanitory.

noWallRuns: Self-Explanitory.

noWallFlips: Self-Explanitory.

noWallGrab: Self-Explanitory.

noRolls: Self-Explanitory.

noFlips: Self-Explanitory.

noCartwheels: Self-Explanitory.

noKicks: Self-Explanitory.

noMirrorAttacks: Self-Explanitory.

kataMove: Choose which move for both attack buttons.

lungeAtkMove: Choose which move for crouch+fwd+attack.

jumpAtkUpMove: Choose which move for jump+attack.

jumpAtkFwdMove: Choose which move for jump+fwd+attack.

jumpAtkBackMove: Choose which move for jump+back+attack.

jumpAtkRightMove: Choose which move for jump+right+attack.

jumpAtkLeftMove: Choose which move for jump+left+attack.

Level 4 Protection Allows
Just because I've been at this post for a really long time, we're just going to forget about level 4 for now, perhaps add onto it in the future.

Marker0077
02-12-2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Wudan is correct. Please move this non-animation discussion to another thread or forum. I see that Kenshire has already bumped up the approprate thread (here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117038)) for you to use. I see what you are saying but this thread is about AnimPack (which is the "New Animations Project"), not just animations alone. If you want to keep this thread about animations only then I guess I'm done posting here until someone gets something done or I can finally be finished with this LAN (which is depressingly time consuming) & I can get something done myself.

Also, that thread is not exactly the same thing as what I am talking about here. That thread is a bunch of concepts that weren't implimented at the time (or we just didn't know about) & are now available with the patch; For the most part anyways.

ASk
02-12-2004, 01:56 PM
How exactly does .sab file modification allow you to cheat? Do you actually say that the JA server -trusts- the client with the data?

From my experience, the only thing client-side .sab files are used for is for rendering purposes. The other parameters are set and controlled by a server, including -actual- number of blades (if you can see it, it does not mean that the server can), the damage and the length/radius. If the person has an extra .sab file that the server does not have, afaik it either does not let them choose it, or counts their saber as the default type.

However, if the server -trusts- the client with that data, then all of the above is wrong, and the FIRST and FOREMOST goal should be on getting this to be controlled fully server-side.

Marker0077
02-12-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by ASk
How exactly does .sab file modification allow you to cheat?You can go into the .sab for the reborn hilt (for example) & set "damageScale 1.15". That sets the damage 15% higher than the standard hilt damage. If this type of change isn't made to the other hilts, than it is obviously 15% stronger than the other hilts.

Again, in an FFA game this would totally go unnoticed. Perhaps people would catch on in a Duel game but I certainly wouldn't say anyone would for sure.Originally posted by ASk
Do you actually say that the JA server -trusts- the client with the data?I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean does the server trust info from the client then it's not a matter of that because this info is completely server-side - not client.Originally posted by ASk
From my experience, the only thing client-side .sab files are used for is for rendering purposes.Certain things are client side, certain things are server side. For example, the number of blades, the width, the damage, etc; etc. is all server side. What sounds to use, whether or not to permit the glow, etc; etc. is all client side.

There is a sab_read_me.txt file that comes in the JK3 SDK that explains all of this in better detail, including what is & is not server side (not all but some).Originally posted by ASk
If the person has an extra .sab file that the server does not have, afaik it either does not let them choose it, or counts their saber as the default type.Again, some of this is server side, some of it is client side. If the client had the .sab file & the server didn't (but was in the servers list of hilts (it would be unaccessable otherwise)), the only thing that would do is use whatever different sound files & whatnot - this is not my concern, hell I'm not even including the sound variables in the protection system at all. My only concern is most of the server side stuff.

ASk
02-13-2004, 01:05 PM
So, you mean, if the server host changes his .sab files, then he can make some hilts more powerful than others, and therefore cheat?

I don't think of it as a problem, since everybody with that certain hilt would have higher damage rates. Cheating is defined as something that gives you an unfair advantage over the opponent, but in this case, the opponent can gain the same advantage.

With this in mind, perhaps set up a function that will compare .sab file variables across clients with the server and kick those who has different data (and it would not be based on pk3 checksum either, but straightforward comparison of the values)

That way, IF the server owner decides to modify the values, the clients would have to do the modifications as well.

Marker0077
02-13-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by ASk
I don't think of it as a problem, since everybody with that certain hilt would have higher damage rates. Cheating is defined as something that gives you an unfair advantage over the opponent, but in this case, the opponent can gain the same advantage.Technically, no it's not a "cheat", but considering only the host or whomever they tell (unless someone stumbles upon this find, & even if they do, realize that it's even there) is going to know about this advantage, it's not exactly far from a cheat now is it? That's the point.

Unless the hilt is set to kill you in 1 hit, people aren't going to notice & those whom want to have an upperhand, will. That's close enough to a cheat if you ask me.Originally posted by ASk
With this in mind, perhaps set up a function that will compare .sab file variables across clients with the server and kick those who has different data (and it would not be based on pk3 checksum either, but straightforward comparison of the values)What would be the point? To not allow clients to use alternative sounds with their sabers?

Most servers out there are unpure. Clients whom would like to have a sword-like hilt can use them, however, any clients that do not have that hilt will see kyle's saber instead. A feature like this would remove that availability.

Using different sounds or allowing the light blade to be removed is not cheating (only the users with this file will see a non-light blade, not everyone on the server) or anything even remotely like it & is not what I am looking to prevent.Originally posted by ASk
That way, IF the server owner decides to modify the values, the clients would have to do the modifications as well.That's what purity is for; Not primarily but that can be accomplished with purity.

JediLiberator
02-13-2004, 04:59 PM
um, quick question for people on this thread. Has anyone actually made any new animations for JA? If so maybe you should post what you've actually done and get some feedback. Otherwise why talk about it if you have nothing done anyways?

keshire
02-14-2004, 04:54 AM
We're waiting on a suitable skeleton. It shouldn't be long, both me and Marker were working on one, but corto left a message at his forum saying he was done but for a few minor tweaks.

Marker0077
02-14-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by JediLiberator
um, quick question for people on this thread. Has anyone actually made any new animations for JA?New animations have been made for Jedi Outcast but that's not what we're interested in. The AnimPack will be for Jedi Academy only since there is no real way to simply convert the animations over to JK2, not to mention the coding as well.Originally posted by JediLiberator
If so maybe you should post what you've actually done and get some feedback. Otherwise why talk about it if you have nothing done anyways?This thread is about the new animations project (AnimPack) which requires coding. There are other things that are going to be coded aside from new animations in this mod such as any bug fixes & various other improvements - that's what we're discussing because this is the developers discussion thread for this project.

Eventually we will have 1 thread for each animation & 1 thread for each concept (such as the .sab protection) in the AnimPack forum but until some publicity is done for the CM site & forums & whatnot (& things are working right with everything), this is where the AnimPack discussion is going to stay.

As for the actual animations, until we have a working skeleton we can't make any. I'm tied up with converting a LAN system at home right now & until that's done, I can't make the skeleton (which will only happen if Corto & I can't come to an agreement), therefore we can't make any animations.

Again, there is more to the AnimPack than just animations. This is a mod which other mods will be based off of, so we're planning ahead.

JediLiberator
02-14-2004, 05:25 PM
Fair enough Marker0077. But if this thread is about ALL coding issues why call it new animations in the first place. Seems to me you'd be better off spliting things up like bug fixes, new animations, and basic code changes. Otherwise you'd be having way too many different arguments/discusion going on at once. Which is what seems to me is what is happening here anyway. Maybe it's just me but it seems this whole thread became a big jumble.

Marker0077
02-14-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by JediLiberator
Fair enough Marker0077...Soz if I snapped at you earlier, I had just woken up & I'm REAL bitchy when I first wake up. :-) It doesn't excuse it, I know, but I can't do anything more than apologize, so I am. Perhaps I should just stay away from the forums when I first wake up but I had a ton of stuff to do today & some of it was forum related.

Anyways, this thread is mainly about new animations. The .sab protection isn't exactly a long discussion. We discussed it, we have a good gameplan for it now & that should be that. As for the various other fixes & whatnot, most of it is in OJP Basic which is discussed elsewhere (RA wasnt too interested in adding the .sab protection into OJP Basic, or at least just didn't want to code it :-) (from what I understand)).

Once we have a working skeleton that's cool with everyone, we'll really get the ball rolling here.

At this point this thread is mainly for keeping people posted on what's up with everyone, what their gameplans are (or discussing what it should be), etc; etc.

Speaking of which, I am hoping to be done with this LAN crap by next monday (which will be March 1st). At that point I should be completely available.

keshire
03-30-2004, 11:55 AM
I can bring this up now. Because I'm done. Any one who wants the xsi just let me know.

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Mar/20043301185333045938791.jpg

Rough two blaster anim that I used as a test.

Wudan
03-30-2004, 03:15 PM
Anyway you can submit the XSI to OJP?

razorace
03-30-2004, 08:55 PM
That's a good question. How should we store new animations for OJP? In raw xsi format and then in merged form with a unified .gla animation file?

Wudan
03-30-2004, 09:53 PM
Something tells me you're not going to have a flood of new animations. I think keshire suggested XSI format, so go with that. When I actually get Dragon to a point where it's at app-level functionality, my anims will be coming in .gla format, with the prerequisite one-frame-at-the-front buffer, for easy merging.

keshire
03-31-2004, 04:36 AM
It depends, how do you want me submitting these?

The skeleton is best suited to xsi.

The animations I can do in a couple of different ways.

xsi
individual gla's ready for merging, or just keep changing the main gla, and uploading a new one each time.

Being this is my hobby and not my job, I'm fine with upping the xsi for anyone who wants to improve on what I've done.

keshire
03-31-2004, 06:01 AM
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Mar/20043301061986998214777.jpg
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Mar/20043301042671171671282.jpg
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Mar/20043309106891000764375.jpg
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Mar/20043304631588832201821.jpg

There you go Renegade Clint Eastwood style double fisted. All you have to do is add the gun.

Lei Hng Wei
03-31-2004, 08:20 AM
Sweeet. Pack a second pistol, do some sideways jumping and we got ourselves some John Woo/Hong Kong fighting action. Screenshots are gonna be coooool. :cool:

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-31-2004, 08:49 AM
Sweet Keshire :) Looking great.

keshire
03-31-2004, 09:43 AM
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Mar/20043318908445004825801.jpg

This was part of the anim package I was working on. They work. They look good. But its the little things that bother me. So this will be done by the end of the week. :)

And then on to the other stuff

sniper prone
ledge hanging (and pulling up and letting go)
Diving move (for when you press crouch right as you jump)

water improvements
part two of the diving move. (one for landing on land one for in water)
Better swimming movements.

etc etc...

N3G1@
03-31-2004, 01:35 PM
I've seen your latest animations, and they're nice, although you could fix a very-very small thing: the legs. Don't leave them as they are. Move them to make the character look more like dynamic. Probably you already knew... I just wanted to let you know...

razorace
04-18-2004, 07:53 PM
Ok, I'm starting a new thread since this thread is pretty bloated. The new thread is here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127055).

VaderInevitable
04-18-2004, 11:27 PM
This may have been mention or talked about before, and is merely and idea, i do not know if this would be classified as an animation but it would be extremely useful and alot of people would benefit from it, what i had in mind is a saber holster emote where you attach you saber to your belt would just be stuck to your side) than you could attach it when needed.

razorace
04-19-2004, 03:26 AM
with the holster system it already sort of does that.