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View Full Version : Brainstorming: New Weapon Type: Reverse Grip


Marker0077
12-31-2003, 04:32 PM
First off I want to say that I call dibs on this new weapon type (MINE!). :-)

This concept was originally brought into mind with the Adi Gallia character. The reversed saber is her weapon of choice. This concept was originally brought into JK by the +POO+ clan in JK2. I messed around with this concept quite a bit with Lee Oattes while I was on the Duelers team & I have a decent gameplan in mind with this but I think I really need new animations for this to have the right feel to it.

In Duelers, we set up reversed sabers so that they could only be used in the left hand when you have dual sabers. This worked out pretty good, especially with some of the specials that were there but I plan on improving everything as much as possible.

Currently, this is only usable as a single. It uses the staff moves for the most part but there are a ton of stuff this thign can't do like stabs, back attacking, it only has 1 blade (where staff has 2), it only uses 2 specials & not 3, etc; etc. but it does have some bonuses like it's faster than the staff, the blade is a bit longer, there is 1 staff special & 1 dual special in it, there is a new back attack, the damage is increased etc; etc.

This is still pretty much on the drawing board. I need to do some homework & look up how real martial artists use the weapon in this manner (mainly for new animations) but I could really use some feedback from you folks.

Here's a SCREENSHOT for everyone to checkout. (http://members.cox.net/marker0077/cm-rev_saber-beta1.jpg)

Here's the actual DOWNLOAD in case you'd like to check this out first hand a bit. (http://members.cox.net/marker0077/cm-rev_saber-beta1.zip)

Labes
12-31-2003, 06:28 PM
Hopefully I won't be reprimanded for posting this, but here goes:

Loks good from my point of view, however, my (very limited) knowledge tells me that no one would hold a reverse-gripped 'saber with two hands.

I do think this would be a cool idea though, being able to set it on the dual users off-hand or even just as its own style.

But: Would it be a new stance or just a new style of saber? A new stance would be pretty cool, so you can switch to that mid way through a fight, or have your person flip one of his sabers like that whenever going into a duel. As far as I know, a reverse-gripped weapon like that would be mostly used for defence and surprise or linking attacks together.

All in all, I think that this would be pretty sweet to implement, but need new animations, graphics, etc etc.

Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong...

razorace
12-31-2003, 07:25 PM
Well, with new animations and coding, we could create a whole new style for it. However, for now, it's just a hack of the *.sab files.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by Labes
Hopefully I won't be reprimanded for posting this, but here goes:Dude, I get this kind of commentary quite a bit nowadays. Some people are posting like "hopefully Marker won't rip me a new a-hole for posting this but..." -type commentary. Not really that kind of phraze but certainly a more clean cut version of it. I really don't mean to brutal & I apologize to anyone I've offended.

If you don't like my idea, that's cool man, I'm asking for public feedback here & whomever would just be being honest & I can respect that, but when people start leaving belittling commentary or just being plain rude, hell ya - it's on like the sun.

Actually I know RA won't tolerate that kind of thing & I respect him for that, normally I leave that kind of posting to the DS or GF forums where it's more laid back & you can say things just out of fun.Originally posted by Labes
Loks good from my point of view, however, my (very limited) knowledge tells me that no one would hold a reverse-gripped 'saber with two hands.You have to keep in mind man, all I'm doing is making use of existing animations, it's not like I'm creating new ones as of yet. The staff animations are the closest I could think of coming to this concept so that's why I went that route. The idle animation is a staff animation.Originally posted by Labes
I do think this would be a cool idea though, being able to set it on the dual users off-hand or even just as its own style.

But: Would it be a new stance or just a new style of saber?It would be both actually. What I am hoping to do is add a little bit of all 3 existing weapon types & manuevers into this one. Creating a whole new stance is more than likely going to be too problematic to deal with, so we more than likely will just edit the tavion/desann stances for this.Originally posted by Labes
As far as I know, a reverse-gripped weapon like that would be mostly used for defence and surprise or linking attacks together.TBH, I really don't know. I know that there are people who hold there weapon in this manner & I intend on doing some homework on why & how they use the weapon, etc; etc. I'm not going to just throw the final together like I did the beta.Originally posted by razorace
Well, with new animations and coding, we could create a whole new style for it. However, for now, it's just a hack of the *.sab files.Exactly. I plan on making it work to some extent in the base game but it's really intended for a new gametype which is going to have to be coded.

babywax
01-01-2004, 04:24 AM
While on the subject of new saber styles: Why not make a single handed saber style? That would be really cool... Sorry to get off topic.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by babywax
While on the subject of new saber styles: Why not make a single handed saber style? That would be really cool... Sorry to get off topic. I don't know what you ean by "single handed" saber style, you mean just hold the saber with one hand?

I guess that could work, less parry-ability but quicker speed, of course that's what lbue stance is for so I really don't see the point.

Darth Sun
01-01-2004, 10:54 AM
The single handed styles are in the game already in the form of Tavion and Desann's styles, they really just need a neutral stance holding the saber with only one hand since they are re-using the blue neutral stance.

Tavion being the "blue" equivalent of the single handed style (it actually uses most of the blue stance specials in single player) and Desann being the "red mixed with yellow" equivalent of the single handed style (since it uses both specials from red and yellow in single player).

These stances are programmed in Multi Player with some limitations, they have pretty much no special for some reason, so they would have to be programmed back in.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 03:06 PM
As I said before...
"What I am hoping to do is add a little bit of all 3 existing weapon types & manuevers into this one. Creating a whole new stance is more than likely going to be too problematic to deal with, so we more than likely will just edit the tavion/desann stances for this."

Darth Sun
01-01-2004, 04:25 PM
I know that's what you said, I merely mentioned the diferences and limitations of Desann and Tavion's stances in both Single Player and Multi Player, presuming it could help in better planning stuff.

I meant no offense with what I said, I apologise if I did offend you in some way.

Marker0077
01-01-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sun
I know that's what you said, I merely mentioned the diferences and limitations of Desann and Tavion's stances in both Single Player and Multi Player, presuming it could help in better planning stuff.Aside from different animations, the single handed stance isn't going to provide any actual combat techniques that aren't already implimented so I don't see the point. I'd rather just modify those 2 stances & turn them into a new weapon type.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I meant no offense with what I said, I apologise if I did offend you in some way. None taken, I apologize if I appeared rude. I was just stating what I already said in case you missed it because it was something that was already discussed. I wasn't pissed or anything man so don't sweat it.

keshire
01-21-2004, 07:10 AM
Is there a way to implement this code-wise so as to not have to make special saber models? This would make it compatible with existing sabers.

razorace
01-21-2004, 07:44 AM
There might be, I just haven't thought of it yet.

keshire
01-21-2004, 07:46 AM
Can't it be flipped along the z axis before or after its attached to the bolt.

Make it a new style and put it with moves that mesh well.

razorace
01-21-2004, 08:12 AM
Well, the thing is that I don't remember if the bolting function lets you change the attachment angle or not.

Marker0077
01-21-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by keshire
Can't it be flipped along the z axis before or after its attached to the bolt.No, this more than likely has to be done statically, unless we can change code to change the position of the blade tag after the hilt as been flipped. See, the tag only gets flipped 180 degrees via 1 axis, however, the actual hilts get flipped 180 degrees via 2 axis's.

In Duelers, we set up sword hilts so that the RGB on them was 50 50 50 so there really was no glow & what little bit of a blade that was there was white was hidden by the blade mesh. At first I flipped the blade & the hilt both 180 degrees (because of where the buttons are positioned on the hilt) but when I started doing the sword hilts, I noticed the misplacement of the blade.

Also, bolts are with player models, not weapon models.

keshire
01-22-2004, 04:49 AM
You can flip the actual hilt and Tag_ (same as bolt_) for a saber model while modeling and achieve the same effect. The only problem would be the fact that you have an entirely new hilt model.

What I'm proposing is to use an existing model and just make it flippable with code. The tag for the actual blade on the model should get flipped too. You just want to do this before the model gets created and attached to the hand bolt on the character model.

We need some way to *inverse?* or 180 its x,y, z (may as well rotate it also).

*edit*
Are you saying that there's a noticeable gap between blade and hilt when its flipped the way I mentioned?

razorace
01-22-2004, 05:52 AM
Well, I checked the code and I don't see anything in the ghoul2 system to be able to do that sort of thing. Sorry.

Marker0077
01-22-2004, 05:06 PM
There is a bit of a difference between a bolt_ & a tag_ but whatever, it's not important.

Anyways, what I am saying is in order for the reversal to work right, you have to reverse the tag_ once & you have to reverse the mesh twice (on 2 different axis's obviously).

This is not something you would notice without working on this in JK2 with the RGB code system. How we made swords appear to be just a standard sword (no glowing blade) in JK2 was by centering the light blade with the blade mesh of the hilt, then setting the RGB scale to 50 50 50 (which was the minimum).

Now if you were to reverse the tag & mesh only once, the 50 50 50 light blade would appear directly beneath the blade mesh. The starting point would be the same but not the ending point (tip of the blade).

You would just turn the light blade off in JK3 so you wouldn't even notice it, however, there would be a problem with that considering the blade is in reality below the blade mesh, not aligned with it.

Gotta love CM standards. :-)

happydan
02-03-2004, 04:12 PM
someone needs to look at anakins style in Ep2. THAT would make a cool stance. lots of single hand spinning and showey attacks, much like some of the LMB+RMB specials, but a whole stance based on it. youve also got maces lazy style, too. just a thought.

Marker0077
02-03-2004, 11:08 PM
FYI, this is about the reverse grip saber type only. Ani's moves from Ep2 would be something for dual sabers, not reverse. I have no clue what you are talking about with mace's lazy style.

The animations thread regarding the AnimPack is at http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120565 & if you want to post about the new animations yourself in the AnimPack forums, you can do so at http://www.gamingforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=886.

happydan
02-04-2004, 03:46 PM
im not talking about the dual sabres stuff. im talking about his style while headed into the factory, and when he was in the factory.

maces lazy style created by the choreographer to show how good a duelist he is. i think its talked about on the DVD in the extras. he has an extremely simple "non-showey" style thats efficient in combat.

Marker0077
02-04-2004, 11:38 PM
ya I still have a lot of homework to do as far as what what animations will be made. I'll try & keep it in mind.