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razorace
01-14-2004, 03:16 AM
Ok, I'm creating a new thread to try to jump start discussion about modding the saber system in response to some creative differences various individuals have been having over it.

I'd like to try to keep the discussion focused on specifics instead pie-in-the-sky ideas, but any good ideas are welcome. Bad ideas will be met with spankings and wiseass remarks. :D

razorace
01-14-2004, 03:24 AM
I'll start the discussion by saying that the flaky hit detection needs to be fixed.

Towards that goal, I've already created a brand spankin' new trace "type" which I call "real Traces". It's specifically designed to get around one of the major issues with the hit detection, which is the way that the saber can only near miss (hit the entity's bounding box but miss their per-poly ghoul2 trace). This is a extremely important flaw since the saber entities are boxes of monsterous size that are often inbetween saber combatants.

Anyway, I beleive my system is working correctly but it still hasn't fixed all the passthrus yet. I beleive the problem related to the way the saber traces currently run from the tip of the saber towards the hilt and the way the saber code handles hits that start inside of objects. I'm back from my vacation and will be able work on this problem soon.

keshire
01-14-2004, 05:21 AM
Now that your back I've seen some issues with some of the current stuff. Your new bounce on bodies code throws any stab-like attacks into quite ugly mirrored attacks. This includes the roll-stab and lunge. The other attacks seem just fine.

also the View Lock gets caught on terrain.

razorace
01-14-2004, 10:49 AM
Well, I'm leaving the view/move lock against terrain on for testing purposes...for now.

Plus, (once I get the bugs out) it might be something that we'd want to just leave on. I've set things up so the saber should be scraping unless it's being rammed into something. It should add some realism and encourage people to not make huge swings in confined areas.

keshire
01-14-2004, 11:20 AM
Yep its done that to me so far. Nothing like being trapped in an elevator with one or more people.

razorace
01-18-2004, 08:38 AM
More Stuff Completed:

- sabers now use actual saber radiuses for saber collision checks.

- Rewrote saber tracing system (I call it a Real Trace now) for better performance and accuracy. it's not 100% (there's some crazy situation where it isn't guarnteed to be perfect, like when multiple players and sabers touching the same saber @ the same time), but it's perfect enough for all the SANE situations that I could think of.

- sv_fps is now set to 40 for improved hit detection. Please note that you might have to do some setting tweaks (that I can't do for you) to get the most out of the change. See http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/jedioutcast/jedi-6.shtml for details.

I've figured out the ghoul2 hit detection problem. It looks like it was a couple of minor logic/math problems that were getting out of hand. Basically, the hit detection is probably about as good as I can make it from a coding standpoint.

The only left (without the engine source) is to just boost the server's fps rate and tweaking the saber collision radius. I've already doubled it from the base value for OJP Enhanced and it makes a big difference.

Of course all this will have to be tested but it seems to be shaping up well. :)

babywax
01-18-2004, 08:56 AM
Is this for gameplay changes to the saber system (I.E. I want some system where I can move my eyes and I attack exactly where my eyes point, as well as having massively cool special effects and twirls) or things more related to coding changes?

razorace
01-18-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by babywax
Is this for gameplay changes to the saber system (I.E. I want some system where I can move my eyes and I attack exactly where my eyes point, as well as having massively cool special effects and twirls) or things more related to coding changes?

It's for both. However, your idea isn't really fesible. Something like that would require inverse kenetics with a massive amount of body modeling and that's a bit beyond our abilities. Sorry.

However, I am working on ways to allow players to have more control over their sabers. You'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. :)

babywax
01-20-2004, 07:43 AM
Well, I was just kidding as to my "suggestion," I just tried to make it as outrageous as possible :p

I would like it if you couldn't move at all while you swing your saber, and at the end you have a sort of half second pause... so it would create a more "you attack, then I attack" setting. It would sort of make it more like Tekken or Soul Calibur 2 (I love that game). However I can see that many people might not like this... plus I wouldn't be programming it, so only do it if you like ;)

Can you elaborate on your saber system? Sounds cool :)

keshire
01-20-2004, 07:56 AM
Well we currently have three saber system threads open, and I'm sure everything being proposed by Razor or Renegade is being worked on. So have a look.

Enhanced WIP: Saber System (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120027)

Enhanced Brainstorming: Saber System (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117698)

and optionally:

Enhanced WIP & Brainstorming: Saber Throw Mechanics (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120455)

Brainstorming: New Weapon Type: Reverse Grip (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120734)

Enhanced Ideas: "Z-Targeting" (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119482)

razorace
01-20-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by babywax
I would like it if you couldn't move at all while you swing your saber, and at the end you have a sort of half second pause... so it would create a more "you attack, then I attack" setting. It would sort of make it more like Tekken or Soul Calibur 2 (I love that game). However I can see that many people might not like this... plus I wouldn't be programming it, so only do it if you like ;)

I don't really think that's a good idea. There's already a noticable pause when the player transistions from one starting position to another.

Plus, not being able to move would be suicide vs gunners.

razorace
01-21-2004, 03:31 AM
Ok dokie, I'm working on the saber mechanics as we speak. This is what I'm thinking here.

On every collision, there will be several random rolls of 0-1000, that determine what happens based on the situational stats of the following :

- Knockdown: The force of the collision knocks you down.

- Knockback: The force of the collision blasts you off balance, while you're off balance, you're vulnerble to attack.

- Butter fingers: The collision knocks the affected saber out of your hand.

Factors that affect the above:

- Skill levels
- movement speeds
- current saber moves/positions
- hand(s) grip on the sabers

Soruss
01-21-2004, 05:08 AM
Ideas to follow... in a very messed up order becuase I kept finishing the post and going "hey, what about..."

I'd like to see some different properties for the attacks in different directions (does this make sense?)

Say if you moved diagonally back, then your swing might be better at causing the enemies saber to be knocked away, leaving him/her open for attack. Vertical strikes would be the best at surpassing defenses, where horizontal strikes just hit a large area.

Also, mayber if you start a swing and move in the opposite direction that the swing was initiated in, the attack might do less damage?

Oh and uhh... maybe different stances make you move faster in different directions at different speeds... examples:

blue) Forward: very fast, Strafing: fast, Backwards: above average
yellow) Forward: very fast, Strafing: above average, Backwards: average.
red) Forward: extremely fast, Strafing: average, Bakwards: slow.

Might add some subtle strategy.

One more idea... Something needs to be done about just holding down the attack button forever. Maybe some sort of a stamina, so when you hold it down your stamina decreases and when you let go you suffer penalties to speed/defense proportional to how long it was held down?

Dunno if this belongs in the saber system thread, but with hand to hand/ melee fights the best tactic is just to crouch and punch because you can't be knocked to the ground. the grab is too slow... maybe if you could turn whiledoing it. I dunno.

If you don't know what Promod for jk:o is then you might want to look it up for some ideas. Had some great features, but was a little broken in it's own right. The class system was great.

ok ok, im getting off topic and rambling. Sorry.

razorace
02-03-2004, 10:58 AM
Ok dokie. I just got the brand new (and already infamous) saber system up and running. It's still in the early stage of development but it's mostly there. It's now time to fill in control defines, bug smash, and game balance. I'll be uploading the system soon, hopefully tomorrow.

Anyway, this bad boy will be need a LOT of beta testing to balance things out, figure out what works for the game, etc. Any help would be appreciated.


Dunno if this belongs in the saber system thread, but with hand to hand/ melee fights the best tactic is just to crouch and punch because you can't be knocked to the ground. the grab is too slow... maybe if you could turn whiledoing it. I dunno.

You can't be knocked down while crouching? That's not good. I'll have to check that out.

Also, mayber if you start a swing and move in the opposite direction that the swing was initiated in, the attack might do less damage?

Done. I've made it so movement and turning in relation to the target results in more or less damage +- %120 (assuming that you're spinning like a top while getting launched at the target from a cannon :)

As for styles affecting speed, I don't think that will really work as if would cause the slower styles to become useless. However, I agree that the run strafe should be a bit slower.

razorace
02-04-2004, 09:54 AM
The new saber system behavioral core is now on the repository. Please check it out if you have time, the more feedback and testing the better the system will be.

I've been playing with it a bit and here's some areas where I think it needs improvement:

- Damage scaler for the behavioral code. Realistically a idle saber is much less likely to screw up than a saber in a full on attack.

- While the parry bonus does give some advantage to manual blocking, I think the fatigue system will need to be in place before it will become really useful.

- Maybe make the knockback and knockdown actions have a bit of kickback to them? I think it looks a bit weird when they stand in place while these things happen.

- Add server cvar so that wall/floor/world impacts can be set so they don't cause saber screw ups.

razorace
02-04-2004, 09:55 AM
- Add in the saber characteristic "Parry Bonus" to the parry bonus behavioral code.

keshire
02-04-2004, 10:09 AM
Hmm...I didn't think any of the saber bonuses were used in MP? Your speaking of the ones defined in the .sab's right?

razorace
02-04-2004, 12:14 PM
Yep, and, yes, they are used in MP.

- Make idle sabers not significantly affect mishap chances. Y pointed out that it looks funny that vader can get floored if he bumps an idle saber with an idle saber while running.

Admiral Chemix
02-04-2004, 04:34 PM
Things I want to see:
The ability for a sword/ saber to have both saber blades and real blades.
Something that allows swords to expand, unsheathing section by section, would be realy cool looking, and functional for servers that want servers yet ban laming, which could accidently happen when a sword is out, because the blade can't withdraw, this would allow blades to withdraw
A new sort of reflective shader that works on weapons, or atleast a chrome shader that looks better than the default one
Balancing out the saber system, better defence with the double blade saber, lower attack power with the strong saber, more katas for each type of blade, saber acrobatics
Felixble weapons
Don't overcomplicate the system, but make it better

razorace
02-04-2004, 09:36 PM
The ability for a sword/ saber to have both saber blades and real blades.
Something that allows swords to expand, unsheathing section by section, would be realy cool looking, and functional for servers that want servers yet ban laming, which could accidently happen when a sword is out, because the blade can't withdraw, this would allow blades to withdraw
A new sort of reflective shader that works on weapons, or atleast a chrome shader that looks better than the default one
Balancing out the saber system, better defence with the double blade saber, lower attack power with the strong saber, more katas for each type of blade, saber acrobatics
Felixble weapons
Don't overcomplicate the system, but make it betterChrome shaders are an issue for the individual skinners.

I don't know how physical weapons are handled server side but adding in saber weapon animations would be a pretty big hassle for something that I can't imagine more than one or two modellers would use.

Flexible weapons? What?

Admiral Chemix
02-04-2004, 11:07 PM
sword mods are becoming more and more popular, so it would be very usesful, as for flexible weapons, I don't know, throwdarts perhaps, num-chux (dang I know I spelled that wrong) whatever, I was just trying to help, but don't forget the last part of that post, remember, overcomplication is a bad thing

razorace
02-05-2004, 02:33 AM
I haven't seen them get more popular. What are you basing that on?

And creating flexible weapons would be a coding nightmare. I don't really see it happening, especially when the game isn't about non-Star Wars weapons anyway.

razorace
02-05-2004, 09:34 AM
I'd like to discuss what we should do with the katas and the Primary + Secondary mouse combo. While the katas are flashy, I think they're making people not do basic saber play by just spamming the katas a lot. I think they either need to be removed totally or seriously nerfed.

As a possible replacement, I suggest that we convert P + S into a counterattack/grappling move button so that saber users can do physical attacks immediately after creating an openning in his opponent's defenses.

keshire
02-05-2004, 09:51 AM
Ok some quick ideas.

Lose the katas. Or make them easily interrupted. Currenty, I think your revamped saber pass-through code causes them to be interrupted when they connect.

And I second the counterattack/grapple idea.

I would also like to state that a parry or broken parry should stun the person for a second, or at least slow them down. As it is, a person sent into a parry or broken parry can back away pretty fast to avoid most oncoming attacks.

I also mentioned this to ReneGade, but I think the kick should break locks.

Then you have
breaking the lock by win or loss
breaking the lock by force push
breaking the lock by kicking the attacker away.

Admiral Chemix
02-05-2004, 01:19 PM
I've seen 4-5 sword packs
I've seen 4-5 saber packs
there are about as many swordpacks being released now as saber packs for jka
In JKO there were almost no sword mods
I consider it an increase

Ur still overcomplicating the system, your making it way to complex, it might ruin the mod if nobody understands how to fight anymore

Darth Sun
02-05-2004, 04:19 PM
Kata spamming is bad, but it's not as easy as it seems.
Katas always take up 50% of the Force bar, although some do need some severe nurfing.

The added moves, like jump+sidestep+primary, are fine, although the jump+forward+primary of Double Saber and Dual Wield Saber styles need some severe fixing.
Jump+back+primary in the Double Saber style is a good move, removing it could actually hinder things; would be good to add a move like this to all the other styles though, not necessarily backward sommersaults, but there's backward butterfly animations (about two if I remember correctly) which are unused in the GLA.

Some Katas leave the user completly defenseless in the end, some are quite easy to dodge unless you're sleeping while playing (IMO anyway); removing them would be bad, but toning some down is fine, like making them easilly breakable as if they were regular saber swings (like it was said).

Just my two cents.

For Chemix:
These sword packs are unfortunetly quite mediocre, they are usually something to include to your JA as a MOD (as in, having their own subfolder) or they sometimes even override files from Base itself.
What some "modders" (sorry, I can't really call these guys modders) don't seem to understand is that adding news swords is NOT making a mod, since they can instantly be accessed in the MultiPlayer saber selection menu (not in SinglePlayer, but you can still use them through the console) just for being in Base with no added modifications.
The SAB file format is quite simple, enables you to make weapons which hit walls, make shields (and make them act like shields), alter animations, alter attacks, etc; adding sabers or new SAB file oriented weapons is no mod, just new weapons to select much like you add new models to select so you can play with them, period.

razorace
02-05-2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sun
The added moves, like jump+sidestep+primary, are fine, although the jump+forward+primary of Double Saber and Dual Wield Saber styles need some severe fixing.
Jump+back+primary in the Double Saber style is a good move, removing it could actually hinder things; would be good to add a move like this to all the other styles though, not necessarily backward sommersaults, but there's backward butterfly animations (about two if I remember correctly) which are unused in the GLA.

Agreed for the most part.

Right now, I think there's a few things we can do to balance things out. The two major ones that I can think of are the following:

- make idle sabers do a significant amount damage (at or near normal attack damage) to players attempting air moves. This would also apply to counterattacks/melee moves that aren't done while the victim is in a knockback. This means you can either knock your opponent into a knockback or just be a very good player.

- taking a non-idle amount of damage while in an air move causes you to get knocked onto your butt.

So, uh, what sort of moves should be in the counter attack button list? I'm trying to decide if it should be like automatic based on the situation, a specific moves list, or both.

keshire
02-06-2004, 06:31 AM
So, uh, what sort of moves should be in the counter attack button list?

kata's ;)

razorace
02-06-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by keshire
So, uh, what sort of moves should be in the counter attack button list?

kata's ;)

yeah.....thanks... :P

Admiral Chemix
02-06-2004, 02:52 PM
first of all, mod stands for game modification, it adds something to the game or changes something, therefor sword packs are considered mods. Second of all, counter buttons? For petes sake does anyone listen to suggestions. Ur overcomplicating ur mods saber system beyond beleif. It's going to drive people insane having to do all this crap just for simple moves. Ur ruining a great mod by overcomplicating the fighting system. I suggest u keep the main stuff, the fixes, the new katas, the special kata counters, and just leave it be. People don't want a 10 page manual on how to swing left with a saber

t3rr0r
02-06-2004, 03:21 PM
this is for the enhanced version... besides, "overcomplicating" an already simple saber system is not a big deal. i welcome any changes.

Admiral Chemix
02-06-2004, 08:20 PM
U seem to be forgetting the meaning of overcomplicate, it means it will no longer be simple, it will be hectic and anoying

razorace
02-06-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Chemix
first of all, mod stands for game modification, it adds something to the game or changes something, therefor sword packs are considered mods. Second of all, counter buttons? For petes sake does anyone listen to suggestions. Ur overcomplicating ur mods saber system beyond beleif. It's going to drive people insane having to do all this crap just for simple moves. Ur ruining a great mod by overcomplicating the fighting system. I suggest u keep the main stuff, the fixes, the new katas, the special kata counters, and just leave it be. People don't want a 10 page manual on how to swing left with a saber

It's not overcomplicated, it's just common sense stuff. The only reason why we're changing anything is because most of us beleive that the saber system is overly simplified and not much fun to play long term.

Admiral Chemix
02-07-2004, 03:19 AM
U are making it overcomplicated, yes jka fighting is simple, it's supposed to be that way, it never took away from the fighting experience for me. Simple is good. The real trace or whatever is great, perhaps redo some of the katas and balance out the styles, make defence better, and then leave it be. Manual countering/ blocking sounds like a real pain for those who want to just play the game, follow the rules and have fun.

razorace
02-07-2004, 04:39 AM
Those that like the system as is aren't the ones that want to play mod anyway, so I don't see it as a problem.

Besides, all I'm trying to do is add some more depth and errr...realism to the combat system, it's not like I'm adding buttons for the hell of it. As is, I've added one button, that's hardly going to break the bank.

Admiral Chemix
02-07-2004, 01:03 PM
Alot of people are OK with the saber system and use mods

t3rr0r
02-07-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Chemix
U seem to be forgetting the meaning of overcomplicate,
on the contrary, i was just reiterating your definition of overcomplicate, hence the quotation marks.

Master_Keralys
02-10-2004, 05:10 PM
Admiral - no offense, but if you don't like this saber system, don't play it. It's their mod, the way they want it, not yours. To be honest (and trying not to be rude): Don't criticize it; if you don't like it, go code something else or quite complaining.

RazorAce and the OJP team as a whole, thanks for doing this and putting up with the crud people give you. I for one am looking forward to playing this system. My only suggestion for Enhanced is to partition it or something b/c I would like to play some parts some days and not others, etc. But overall, this is great; my compliments.

Admiral Chemix
02-10-2004, 05:36 PM
for someone who doesn't mean to be rude, u sure as heck are doing a good job of it. I'm just saying don't overcomplicate the saber system, strongly suggesting it perhaps but still, I am just trying to assist. Yes it is there mod, I'm not trying to force them to change it, I just realy realy thing this will screw OJP advanced, I realy enjoy using the OJP mod, it's great and I wouldn't want it to be ruined.

GothiX
02-10-2004, 06:39 PM
Then stick to Basic, and don't play Enhanced.

razorace
02-11-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Chemix
for someone who doesn't mean to be rude, u sure as heck are doing a good job of it. I'm just saying don't overcomplicate the saber system, strongly suggesting it perhaps but still, I am just trying to assist. Yes it is there mod, I'm not trying to force them to change it, I just realy realy thing this will screw OJP advanced, I realy enjoy using the OJP mod, it's great and I wouldn't want it to be ruined.

Before you make judgement I suggest you actually try the system.

Master_Keralys
02-12-2004, 03:56 PM
Sorry, I did come off harsher than I intended. All I mean is, as long as you haven't played it yet, don't criticize it; some of us are looking forward to the system, though it's certainly not for everyone.
How long till this is actually out there for the public to try, do you think, Razorace?

razorace
02-12-2004, 08:17 PM
Well, part of it is already on the CVS repository, the rest is still being worked on. It will probably be in the next release wave, which is pretty much dependant on getting TCK's RGB saber code into the project.

Master_Keralys
02-13-2004, 03:56 PM
Excellent. Now, if we can just get TCK going...

razorace
02-15-2004, 06:03 AM
Ok, the Dodge System is working. It just needs a hud icon and some refinements. The major problem I'm seeing right now is that saber attacks are very difficult to dodge as a solid hit passes thru a lot of space that a player is occupying. Meaning that even thou you Dodged the original hit, it can still hit you, espeically when the dodge animation doesn't get you fully out of the way of the blade.

Any suggestions on how to fix this?

Secondly, I got the code from TCK and will be intergrating it myself. Hopefully it will be ready for release soon.

razorace
02-16-2004, 09:38 PM
All the latest code has been added to the repository.

The new stuff includes...

- Fatigue:

Your Force Points now regenerate at a slower rate and most combat actions cause Force/Fatigue Points. Attempting a saber move that costs more than your current FP will result in you doing the move much slower than normal. The objective of this system is to make players concentrate on fighting smartly by effective mixes of attacking and defending.

Fatigue Regen Rates (dependant on g_ForceRegen setting):
Standing = Standard (= 1 FP per g_ForceRegen milliseconds)
Running = No Regen
Walking = Standard/2
Meditate (using the meditate taunt) = Standard * 3

Fatigue Costs:
Standard Saber Attack = 1
Standard Saber Spin (transition) = 1

- I've set up some easy to find tags for the defines that determine their behavior.
Saber System (SaberSys) = SaberDefines
Fatigue System (FatigueSys) = FatigueDefines
Dodge System (DodgeSys) = DodgeDefines

Dodge:

Dodge is a brand new system that prevents you from taking damage. Whenever an attack is going to hit you, Dodge takes over and either automatically moves your saber to block the attack (Dodge Block) or Evades out of the way. Dodge operates from a Dodge reserve that is seperated from the other stats (health, ammo, etc). The new Hud in the upper left part of the screen displays how many Dodge Points (DP) you have. Dodge has a maximum of 100 points and is refilled by draining energy from your Fatigue (Force) Points at a ratio of 6 DP to 1 FP. Dodge regens at a much faster rate than Fatigue (is controlled by g_dodgeRegenTime).

There are several different types of Dodge:

Dodge Block - If the player is using a light saber and not attacking, he will automatically attempt to block incoming light saber attacks. This is the first line of Dodge defense. This currently doesn't have an DP cost but it also doesn't have the parry bonus of a manual block.
Dodge - The player physically evades an attack. This currently only works for saber attacks. Cost is dependant on method of attack.
Sabers = 30 DP.
Dodge Roll - When normal Dodge fails, like say when a very solid saber swing continues to hit the player, the player will launch into a Dodge Roll

Situations where Dodge doesn't work:
Choking
Knocked to the ground
In mid air

It's very important to remember these situations as sabers are VERY lethal without Dodge.

Dodge Cvars:

g_debugdodge 0 = debug cvar for Dodge. Set to 1 to receive messages whenever Dodge is used.
g_dodgeRegenTime 555 = Controls the rate at which Dodge regens. The value is in msecs between regens.

Darth Sun
02-17-2004, 02:30 AM
Sounds great to me, RazorAce.
Keep up the good work. ^_^