View Full Version : new civ

General Nitro
02-10-2004, 04:48 AM
im sure this topic has prolly been covered in someone's layout for SWGB2, but id like to iscolate just this one topic. are there any new civs you'd like to add in addition to the old ones? here are a few suggestions: trandoshans, mandolarions (jango's peeps, not sure how to spell it), hutt cartel, tusken raiders, bounty hunters, etc. the first two would be more tradiotonal, but the last 3 yall prolly think i dum, which it sorta is unless it is used as an unorthadox civ. also, what do y all think of unorthadox civs?

Darth Windu
02-10-2004, 08:21 AM
Well, in my template, i have the-
- Confederacy
- Empire
- Republic
- Hutt Cartel
- Rebels
- Naboo (Royal Naboo + Gungans)
- Federation
- Wookiees

Plus, as i bonus, the Yyuzhan Vong (or however you spell them)

02-10-2004, 04:33 PM
Yuuzhan Vong ;)

I don't think Trandoshans would work too well...

And I'm kinda wondering about the Hutt Cartel.

As long as SWGB2 is 3D, I'll be happy with it. (Even though I wouldn't mind the Yuuzhan Vong civ)

02-11-2004, 01:24 AM
The less the merrier (although not too few to stifle variety)

02-11-2004, 01:47 AM
i highly doubt there will be any new civs for a new game. new units, definately. but no new civs.

Admiral Vostok
02-11-2004, 04:19 AM
Yep, this has been discussed billions of times before, but what the hey. There should be no new civs (unless there is a major civ in Episode III) because the existing civs were the only ones worth bothering about in the major wars of the galaxy (ie those in the films). The Wookiees are added in to make even numbers and because everyone loves Chewie.

02-15-2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
The less the merrier (although not too few to stifle variety)

Now we're talking :D

Mandalorians are gone since quite a time (I think) so we probably won't see them in SWGB 2

Just to comment again on Windu's list, I'd get the Hutts out (c'mon guys, nobody wants to play as fat worms) and the TF should be part of the confeds.

And I'll say it again, 4 civs is the way to go (maybe 5, but due to LA's incapacity to correctly develope completely unique sides, I'd stay with 4)

Darth Windu
02-16-2004, 12:39 AM
Darth54 - with the Hutts, you dont actually play as a Hutt, you use their minions. That means using things like Weequey infantry, Rodian sniper's etc. There are no Hutt combat units.

With the Trade Federation, there was quite a stink when i suggested that myself a little while back, and i have to say that i was wrong. The Federation, although for all intents and purposes is part of the Confederacy, is a unique civ. Besides, the TF as a seperate civ is necessary for Ep1 senario's/campaign's.

02-16-2004, 06:35 PM
I want daleks.

I'll get me coat... ;)

Admiral Vostok
02-16-2004, 07:04 PM
The Trade Federation are not part of the Confederacy, and in fact they may never properly be. They are allies just like the Gungans and the Naboo.

My evidence is Nute Gunray's line from Attack of the Clones:
"What about the Senator from Naboo? I'm not signing anything until I have her head on my desk."

So he wasn't a proper memeber of the Confederacy then and since Padme won't die until the end of Episode III by which time the Confederacy will probably be defeated, he may never join the Confederacy. Now it is possible that he backs down from this, but I believe Gunray would be very stubborn. The Trade Federation has the strongest army of all the Confederacy's members, so Gunray knows his involvement is desired. He would use that desire to get what he wants (Padme dead).

This may also explain why we see none of the Federation's tanks or fighters in the Battle of Geonosis. Gunray might have had some Droidekas for protection in the arena, but their weren't any of them in the big battle either. To this end it's possible none of the Battle Droids in the battle belonged to the Trade Federation. The Federation starships retreated quite possibly with their armies still on board while the Confederate army protected their escape.

Windu: Good to see you can admit you are wrong sometimes. ;)

Darth Windu
02-17-2004, 12:24 AM
Vostok - well, it seems that every game i have seen produced by Lucasarts about the Clone Wars disagree with you. In things like 'Jedi Starfighter' and 'The Clone Wars' the TF is part of the Confederacy - Lucas even said that the TF fighter was supposed to be the main Confed fighter until he came up with the idea of the Geonosian fighter.

You also have to look at it this way. Gunray has been involved in the capture and attempted murder of a Republican Senator and two Jedi. When the galaxy is polarised into two seperate camps, the Republic and Confederacy, who do you think they would join? It also makes sense in that the TF isnt exactly happy under the Republic either.

02-17-2004, 01:40 AM
Does it really matter here? We need our separate TF civ for the sake of Ep.1

It's gonna suck if we see super battle droids marching down on grassy plains while the hailfire droids are bombarding the gungan shields...

Admiral Vostok
02-18-2004, 07:05 PM
Windu, I think you may be getting confused between "Separatists" and "Confederacy of Independent Systems". Throughout Attack of the Clones, Dooku and his allies are referred to as "Seperatists" and not as the Confederacy. The Trade Federation is undoubtedly a part of the Separatists, since they have separated from the Republic. The Confederacy was formed during the meeting Obi-Wan was spying on, and the Trade Federation is not a part of the Confederacy - according to the movies, that is.

I'd be interested to see whether your George Lucas quote specifies Confeds or just Separatists.

Darth Windu
02-19-2004, 02:44 AM
Vostok - you have to remember though that 'Confederacy' (as opposed to Coalition, Alliance etc) is a loose association of members. Take the Confederacy from the US Civil war for example. Each state had it's own army/armies which operated independatly of each other, but were co-ordinated by a Confederate General.

As for the Droid Starfighter, i was slightly wrong, i dont know if it was Lucas himself or not but you can be pretty sure it was. Anyway, the 'quote' is here-

"Initially, the droid starfighter seen in Episode I was to be the primary air defense for the Separatists, but it was decided instead to give the Geonosians their own fighter craft."

Admiral Vostok
02-19-2004, 06:03 AM
That's a nice point about the word "Confederacy", Windu, but in Star Wars the Confederacy of Independent Systems refers to those Separatists that signed Dooku's treaty. The Trade Federation as far as we know are not signatory to it.

That quote really just proves my point, because they used the term Separatists (which the Trade Federation are part of) and not Confederacy (which the Trade Federation are not part of).

Darth Windu
02-19-2004, 09:06 AM
I really dont see the difference between the Confederacy and Seperatists, but still as luke said it really doesnt matter. All we know for sure is that the TF fights on the side of the CIS.

PS: does anyone know if there were AAT's in the 'deleted tank scene' in Ep2?

02-19-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
PS: does anyone know if there were AAT's in the 'deleted tank scene' in Ep2?

Nope there was none. Only SWGB's Confederacy Assault Mech and Republic Speeder Bikes.

General Nitro
02-21-2004, 02:07 PM
how do u know about the tank scene? is it on the net?

02-21-2004, 03:49 PM
I dunno, can't remember but you can't see it though. Perhaps it's on the ep2 DVD.

Darth Windu
02-22-2004, 02:30 AM
Unfortunately no, it isnt on the DVD. I think that the tank scene, like the Droid Ship Raid scene, was included in the first screenings for critics etc but was later taken out.

I would love to see it put back into the film, but at the moment, i class the Jedi Hanger as the coolest Ep2 deleted scene.

Admiral Vostok
02-22-2004, 06:09 PM
The Confederacy Assault Mech and Republic Speeder Bikes mentioned by Luke's Dad can be seen on the AotC DVD. I think they're shown at some point in the feature about visual effects, possibly during the closing credits. They're unsophisticated cgi, not properly completed. I think this is as far as they got, they were never actually completed for the film.

The Republic Speeder Bike bit is especially cool, it get's my vote for coolest deleted bit. You see a couple of Clone Troopers on speeder bikes zoom through the legs of a Homing Spider Droid, then they throw a grenade which sticks to the underbelly of the walker, which of course blows it up. I liked the idea so much that in my SWGB2 Design I gave my Clone Bikers grenades that are good against Mechs.

Darth Windu
02-23-2004, 05:48 AM
Really? I never saw it - must hire it out again and look. Anyhow, from what i know of it, it seemed pretty cool and would have been great to see in the film, i even have a Hasbro Clone Trooper on Speeder Bike figure.

I too have the Republic Speeder Bike Clone's having grenades which are effective against Mechs in my SWGB2 template.

02-26-2004, 09:52 PM
Ok, people, I have been thinking about this for a while, and I have decided against the version of SWGB2 that my template showed, in favor of a new idea. Its not drastically different, but it contradicts some statements I have made in the past. I'll leave you guys in suspense until I can get my lazy butt into making a separate thread. Probably will be later today or tommorrow.

Admiral Vostok
02-27-2004, 06:41 AM
Oooh, very intriguing Sith.

Windu, let me get this straight... you own a Hasbro Clone Trooper on Speederbike but not the Episode II DVD? You need your priorities sorted!

Darth Windu
02-27-2004, 07:18 AM
I have the AotC VHS, i'm going to get the AotC DVD later if they bring out a set including all of the films in special edition on DVD (probably wishful thinking but hey...)

Admiral Vostok
03-01-2004, 04:38 PM
Oh well that's alright then. Please ignore my comment.

Darth Windu
03-02-2004, 09:47 AM
I SAW IT! I hired out the Ep2 DVD and saw the speeder bike scene. It's in the doco 'pre-visualisation of Ep2' on the 2nd disc.

PS: i've replaced the Geonosian Cannon with the Corporate Alliance Tanbk Droid in my SWGB2 template.

03-02-2004, 11:15 PM
I just saw some of the earlier posts concerning the TF and the Confeds, and I'd like to highlight the fact that I have switched sides. I know that in the past, I have been a virulent supporter of having the civs separate, but, because, in thinking about it I decided that the best course of action was to combine the two groups under the name separatists. This is not for any of the reasons that Windu has or likely will have, but because I felt that even my scarce 7 civs were too much to ensure true variety in the civs, and could also hamper balancing adjustments and the like. Also, the combination of civs gives a game designer the ability to field a wider variety of units, so that civs don't run inot the problem of not having the redundant counter (having two counters for every unit, typically one soft, one hard, or one early game, one late game, is the best idea (see AoM's norse for reasons), and, equally important, allows the designer to be more faithful to the movies (no gungan air, tf seige, etc.). The reduced civ number also helps in CPU usage, and allows the civs to be truly unique (the tf and the confeds kept stepnig on each other's toes in terms of features, units, and bonuses). I am trying to decide between 4 civs (Rebs, Reps, Imps, Seps), or the addition of a 5th combined Naboo civ (I have a really good idea on how to make this work and be VERY unique, but I'm still balancing it in my head, unlike certain people when they post their topics, who only concenr themsleves with correctness realistically). I have a couple of other ideas, even units, but I don't plan to make a second template (too much work). Not that it matters, a lot of it is lifted straight from my original templates.

Darth Windu
03-03-2004, 09:03 AM
LOL, so finally, after bashing my idea's regarding the combining of the TF and Confederacy, and then the Royal Naboo and Gungans, Sith has admitted that he was wrong and that my idea had merit. Amusing indeed...

03-03-2004, 10:01 PM
This is how I would like to see the civilizations set up:

Rebel Alliance
Galactic Empire
Galactic Republic
Royal Naboo
Trade Federation

With the option in the option menu where you combine two civilizations on certain maps such as Wookies and Rebels or Naboo and Gungans or Trade Federation and Confederacy.

03-04-2004, 01:42 AM
No, Windu, your ideas have less merit in my mind now, because, although we agree that the Naboo/gungans and Confeds/TF should be merged, I disagree with your reasoning even more. In fact, I've moved further from where you are coming from than I was before. I actually have been moving closer to Darth54 ideologically, although Blizzard games still suck. I don't think you read my post, or that all went buzzing right over your head. The TF aren't so much as merged with the Confeds as dropped entirely, with a handful of their units/bonuses going into confed hands, and, as for the naboo and the gungans, i wouldnt say they are exactly merged. More later, still balancing.

Darth Windu
03-04-2004, 05:54 AM
Sith - so the Naboo and Gungans will be merged, but not really merged? That makes sense...

Also, i thought we already had the discussion about the TF being essential as a seperate civ so that players can play out Ep1 senario's...

03-04-2004, 02:08 PM
Add a handful of units for the particular scenario without creating a new civ completely. It's quite doable.

Although I still want my separate civs:mad: I'm through arguing.

Admiral Vostok
03-05-2004, 03:23 PM
I'd prefer separate civs, because I think the Trade Federation has a very different way of waging war than the Confederacy. The Federation sits back and bombards then slowly advances. The Confederacy swarms quickly and overwhelms. However, if they were to be combined I should hope they abide by these criteria:

:atat: They MUST be called Separatists, not the Confederacy.
:atat: It must be possible for the civ to play a Battle of Naboo campaign. By this I mean the following: in many RTS campaigns, you start out the campaign without the full compliment of units. The Separatists civ should do the same in that during the Battle of Naboo part of the campaign, you don't have access to all the units, only those associated with the Trade Federation.
:atat: They should have two different Workers, a PK droid and a Geonosian Drone. Not sure how exactly they'd work, but meditate on this I will.

Again I'd prefer separate Naboo civs, but given enough thought they too could be merged. Again my reasoning is that they fight very differently: the Naboo uses speedy elite units to strike hard and fast, the Gungans specialise in defensive actions, they move slowly but purposefully using numbers. In fact I'm most opposed to this merger because their fighting styles are virtually complete opposites. But here's my criteria should they need to be merged:

:atat: Their bases must be done in such a way that the wonderful architecture of both civs is present, but not appear like two totally different civs. This might mean that the stone masonry of the Naboo is mostly present while the organic bulbs of the Gungans is reserved for underwater buildings only. Again, meditate on this I will.
:atat: It somehow needs to be balanced well, considering each civ has weaknesses. The Royal Naboo have good Air, Jedi and small speedy Mechs. The Gungans have good Sea, Seige and large tough Mechs. This would leave their only weakness being Troops, which I suppose could work.

If I'm motivated enough I might do up my own versions of combined civs just so I satisfy all my own criteria.

03-05-2004, 05:02 PM
I find it quite hard to balance out the Naboo/Gungans. Speedy mechs and slow and strong mech? I think one of the two classes should be nerfed down in favor of the other or we'll have the ultimate mech civ here.

Their Air force should also be nerfed down in favor of the better gungan navy or they'll slaughter everyone on island maps(especially the civs who don't have great air and navy).

The infantry also poses quite a problem. We have the Naboo commando-like units and the basic gungan canon-fodder. Unlike a civ like the confed, oh pardon me, the separatists, whose infantry is mainly composed of canon-fodder units, the Naboo/Gungan have both. One of them should be nerfed down.

Remove the Jedi as one of their strength, there was only two of them during the conflict, it barely ressembles a "strength" even if Obi-Wan was one them. Don't nerf them, but turn them into an average Jedi civ meaning their not strong but not weak neither. Makes a bit more sense.

The only thing that I think doesn't really require thougth are the heavies(gungan of course) which seem to mesh well no matter what happens.

Darth Windu
03-06-2004, 12:48 AM
With the Naboo/Gungans, this is how i developed the combined civ.

Buildings - all land buildings are Royal Naboo, and Sea buildings are Gungan (including shipyard)

Mechs - if you look at Ep1, the Gungan 'mechs' are used for one thing only - infantry support. They provide shield cover and arty support for the Gungan infantry, whereas the Naboo have Light Strike Vehicles. In other words, the Naboo mechs provide the shoot-n-scoot capability while Gungan mechs go with the infantry.

Air - i only gave the Naboo one combat aircraft, the N-1 Fighter. The reason i did this was because if they had a bomber, they would be far too strong consiering their infantry and naval strength.

Navy - the Naboo's strongest point. Various units like Frigates and long-range cruisers as well as one of their more unique units, the Starfighter Carrier. Due to the ability of all Naboo (ie Gungan) ships to submerge, they are very powerful in the water.

Jedi - all Jedi are generic in my template, except for the Republic's Jedi Master

Did i miss anything?

03-06-2004, 01:32 AM
Yes, the infantry.

I won't start on your starfighter carrier...

03-06-2004, 02:51 AM
Here's my idea. Its still in the works, but here it goes: a Naboo player would, in a normal SP or MP game start off with two tcs-a Gungan one and a Naboo one. To help curb the enormous economic advantage of this, both the worker glurgs and the Naboo citizens train slower than their counterparts (this is justified in real-life by the Naboo/Gungans having the only living villagers, the others are quick to make robots). Gungan workers can only build gungan buildings and naboo citizens can only build naboo buildings. In order to maintain this seperation throughout the game, I stole some ideas from my template. The Naboo and Gungans have free power at each building, but the Gungans must build a sort of water pump near their buildings which eminates this swamp texture that only gungans can build on. The start TC would probably also create this, so that you don't run into problems early on. That way the two sets of buildings would never become co-mingled (which would look stupid). Other than that, both sides have the same bonuses and the like, to maintain a sense of continuity (like the Naboo healing within a certain range of buildings thing from my template).

As for units, the naboo I envisioned having the most of the air and the mechs (no stupid ball shooter on dinosaur mehcs), some of the troopers, the jedi and counter-jedi, and they would be built from either the hangar, the RSF station or the jedi temple. The gungans would have most of the troops, all the heavies (except anti-air), the navy, one air unit, the sheilding, and they would be built from either a militiagung outpost or a creature training center.

Vostok, in my mind, the Confeds don't merge with the TF. The TF is instead dropped and the Confeds just absorb some of their units and bonuses. The TF just become another aspect of the Confeds (who are now called Separatists).

03-06-2004, 04:01 AM
Hmmm, they do seem to require a hell of a lot of space management.

The units are fine but I'm quite skeptical about the buildings. They'll require a lot more work then other civ. You have to prepare an area for the Gungan and one for the Naboo which, depending on the actual size of the area affected by the water pump, will require an enormous area compared to the other civ.

Darth Windu
03-06-2004, 08:35 AM
luke - well, the Starfighter carrier is so that the Naboo can conduct strikes from the sea. This gives the Naboo player more flexability, allows for thwe weakness of no Naboo bomber, and gives opposition players more incentive to destroy the Naboo navy. Also, realistically, it makes sense. After Ep1, the Gungans and Naboo became 'friends' and built the Starfighter Carrier - a mix of Royal Naboo and Gungan technology, and a way to react rapidly to any situation on the planet (remember their core is water)

sith - that seems just like playing as two civs at once. I really do think that the civ, as you have portrayed it, involves too much micro management as opposed to the other civs.

03-06-2004, 09:58 PM
Luke, yes but you will be starting with two tcs, both spaced apart, so you have a lot of room to work with. And the pump thing won't have that big of a range. You could have a Naboo and gungan forward base, but the two building sets would be clustered together, but probably still fit onto one screen size (maybe a little more).

Windu, the micro is all in the balance. Many a strong tactic is balanced by additional micro. Remember, even with the slower building of vils, you'd be much further ahead economically than your opponents

Darth Windu
03-07-2004, 02:28 AM
Sith - with your micro, it's not so much the time it takes to build structures that has me concerned, but the fact that it seems, at least to me, that a Naboo player will be building two different civs at the same time. I really cant see how this could be balanced, and i also think that using that method would make the Naboo an unpopular civ, or players would simply build Royal Naboo or Gungan but not both.

03-07-2004, 04:03 AM
Yeah, he's right. They already have to manage two tcs unlike other players.
They're at quite a disadvantage from the beginning(micro wise). However, I guess having an additionnal tc would prove to be an advantage since if one falls you still have the other...You really have to nerf down their tcs...

The problem comes from building two sets of buildings using two different ways.

Admiral Vostok
03-08-2004, 02:15 AM
Never thought I'd say it, but Windu is right and Sith is wrong.

The comments that both Windu and Luke have brought up have merit. As Windu says, you're effectively managing two civs while your opponent only has to manage one. I can't really see this idea working. However, this also means that early in the game, because they have two TCs, the Naboo are twice as hard to destroy as their opponents. Having workers build slower isn't enough to counter this, in my opinion. So they'll be more microing (having to zoom back and forth between bases will be very annoying) and harder to destroy, making them dislikable to players and enemies alike.

What sort of fighting style will the civ specialise in? Because the Naboo and Gungans, as I have said, fight in very different ways.

As for the Trade Fed, will all the units seen in Episode I as part of the Trade Federation be present in your template? To be specific, will they have:
- Battle Tanks
- MTTs
- Droid Carriers
- Droidekas
- Droid Starfighters

If any of these are excluded I will not be happy!

In the next few days I intend to write my own plans for combined Naboo and Separatist civs to fit in my template. One of the things I will be focussing on is how to bring out the fighting styles of both civs.

Finally, could you stick your original template on the web so I can have a refresher? Or at least post a link to where it was on the forums.

03-08-2004, 08:40 PM
It shouldn't really be a problem for the Trade Federation Separatists merger since both have quite similar fighting styles unlike the Naboo/Gungan.

I believe that if we merge the Trade Fed and the Confed, all Ep1 vehicles will be included in the Ep1 campaign and in the toybox. If not then the Separatists have too many vehicles.

03-08-2004, 10:04 PM
mon calamari :)

General Nitro
03-08-2004, 11:33 PM

Admiral Vostok
03-09-2004, 02:38 AM
I wouldn't say the Confederacy and Federation fight that similarly. The Federation lines all their units up in formation, then attack in an orderly fashion. The Confederacy charges all their units in a headlong rush, using swarm tactics. However their styles aren't as different as the Naboo peoples'.

All Episode I vehicles must be in the civ! I think it could be done without them being too overpopulated. Afterall, the Separatists strength is in their numbers... of course you'd probably have to leave out those units that didn't make it to the movie, like the Corporate Alliance Tank, and just have the MTT as a super-heavy vehicle.

03-09-2004, 07:59 PM
But still makes no sense for people. They look at the Separatists like the Confed. It will look weird having both AAT and Homing Spider Droids on the battlefield.

03-09-2004, 09:34 PM
Wow, I guess no one here plays MP...

I would kill to start with two towns. Period. The boost in vill production alone would be worth the trouble. If they didn't require you to build different buildings in different towns, this would seriously be OP. Think, you have near 2x the vil production, access to near two times the amount of recourses (you can't starve me out of gold), have two areas that the opponent must concentrate on, two strong attacking buildings to use for defense, the ability to build vils/do techs while advancing, 2x the starting pop, probably a lslightly more than the starting vils (can't be too strong now), all for a little micro and slower vil production? Seriously, if having to manage two fronts and two economies (its not even really that, the two start a screen's lenght away) is too much for you people, I shudder to think how you play past t2. There are some people here who I would expect that from (no names), but you other guys need to sit back and think how you are over reacting. This is like having a troop center at one end of your base and a mech factory at the other. Not very hard to manage, is it?

Vostok-any TF units not included in the civ, will be in the scenerio box.

Darth Windu
03-09-2004, 11:24 PM
Sith - the whole problem with what you just said is that it is all in a SWGB mindset. Instead of thinking within the limits of SWGB, such as tech levels and the different resources, you should be thinking of a completely new game.

Also, what you just said doesnt address the concern about playing as two civ's at the same time. Sure, starting with 2 CC's would be great, but the problem still exists.

03-10-2004, 12:29 AM
Actually, Windu, when I first came up with the idea, it was like you were playing as two different civs. But, instead of rushing to the boards to post my idea (like some nameless people), I spent a while and refined it, because that was one of my major concerns. Both sides share all the Naboo bonuses: free power, healing near buildings, etc. Identical units and buildings (citizens, town halls/ohtos, houses, markets (these are the Naboo drop sites), etc.) have the same costs and same stats. Citizens build and gather at the same speed, and can even share drop sites. The only real separation is the specialized buildings and the fact that they cannot build in the same areas. I have reviewed my idea, and I got rid of the whole pump thing as a necessity, the buildings automatically extend the swamp like Gaia's lush, but can be built anywhere. Also, if all of the town halls/ohtos are lost then the original town of the other side can build refugee citizens. Finally, cause I still think that they are OP, the Naboo also have slightly more expensive buildings.

And I don't know what RTS you are planning with no resources or set advancements.

Admiral Vostok
03-10-2004, 01:32 AM
Sith - My major concern is that you are twice as hard to kill early in the game. There's a reason they don't let you build a second Command Center until TL3.

03-10-2004, 09:37 PM
Actually, in AoM:TT, you can build TC's in classical, and the atlanteans can build them in archaic. It has, in almost everyone's opinion, made the game better. It makes for longer classical periods, and a smaller chance that someone will be knocked out in classical. Also, it makes booming a viable option. I was skeptical too, but I thought that if Gaia, the only civ really who builds a tc in archaic, is the weakest god in the game, in terms of win percentage, then the Naboo shouldn't be too bad. I envisioned the Naboo to be a much stronger booming civ, staying within the confines of their town for the earlier portion of the game. They aren't meant to be taken out early (thats no fun for any civ), but merely harassed, forced into losing battles and raided relentlessly. And taking out one tc for the Naboo is almost as much of a death knell as it is for other civs, cause they only have the ability to build up half their units, and they will be mising half their economy. Taking out one of the inital Naboo tcs will pretty much decide the game in a 1v1.

03-11-2004, 06:24 PM
I think it could be hard to balance this. The advantages and disadvantages are hard to quantify and hard to compare with ohter "normal" civs because it's so different. I've a feeling this combined civ will turn out to be either overpowered or much too diffficult for most people to play, and it'll be very hard to find the ideal in between.

Admiral Vostok
03-11-2004, 10:55 PM
My thoughts exactly, Saberhagen. Though I suppose I should reserve judgement until Sith releases his finished design.

03-11-2004, 11:15 PM
Saberhagen-thats exactly the problem I've been wrestling with. If it is powerful but hard to carry out, it will be fairly balanced in the lower levels but dominate the upper levels. Then, if you nerf it for the upper levels, its too weak to be viable in the lower levels. I think that the key lies in decreasing the micro but adding more nerfs to compensate in upper levels. Its a hard and delicate process, and even if refined, one patch could mess everythnig back up again. Almost every game can cite a unit or a civ or both that is affected by this lower/upper gap balancing problem.

Vostok-thanks for waiting, but any suggestions would be good. Many heads work better than one.

Admiral Vostok
03-11-2004, 11:45 PM
Personally, I don't see it working properly if you have the bases separated as you described. It would work better, in my opinion, if they started with two buildings quite close together. This would make it easier to destroy them (you only have to explore to find one base, not two) and easier to manage (you don't have to continually scroll back and forth - which might not be a problem for hotkey users but is a huge problem for beginners).

The disadvantage is of course that you can't have your buildings separated as much as you wanted. The remedy to this I think is that Gungans should only be allowed to build on Swamp, which emanates from all their buildings (like Gaia's lush). This will keep the Gungan's buildings together, and away from the Naboo's (who can build anywhere).

Also how about when one Command Centre is destroyed (either the Naboo or Gungan one) a single worker from that civ appears free of charge at the other Command Centre? This would get around the messy fact of building worker glurgs at the Royal Palace. This worker is generated regardless of whether you already have workers of that type available. If you have none of that type of worker, and your free one is killed, another will respawn until you get your other Command Centre rebuilt - though there will be a delay with the respawn.

How's that? Oh and by the way I started combining civs and decided it destroyed too much of the character I'd built into the separate civs, so gave up - for the moment.

Darth Windu
03-12-2004, 07:23 AM
sith - from my pov, you're making the civ combination way more complicated than it really needs to be.

You have tackled it in the way of thinking that there are seperate civs, the Royal Naboo and Gungans, but as the 'General' or whatever, you get to control both. If you can get it to work, it would be good, but i really doubt that it's possible.

On the other hand, i tackled it by way of thinking that, after Ep1, the Royal Naboo and Gungans really form a singular defensive alliance, in that they are both integrated into a single chain of command, and hence to play as a combined civ, much like the Confederacy is a combination of the Commerce Guild, Corporate Alliance, Techno Union etc.

03-12-2004, 11:20 PM
ACtually, it would be weird if they built all of their different units in the same buildings. Unlike the Separatists, they ARE two different civs working as one. The Separatists are just too similar with each other which makes the comparison impossible.

Darth Windu
03-13-2004, 12:24 AM
luke - gameplay > realism

Sure, it may look odd, but then who's to say that Gungan troopers wouldn't be trained by the Royal Naboo?

As for comparing the Confederacy and Naboo, i don't see the difference. The Confederacy are an even more varied alliance than the Naboo are, so i dont see any problems in combining the Royal Naboo and Gungans into a single, integrated civ.

03-13-2004, 03:18 AM
Actually no.

The Confederacy has units that still fits in with the Trade Federation and vice-versa. They use almost the same tactics.

The Naboo and the Gungans are two different civs mainly because they fight in two different ways.

You cannot compare two almost indentical civ with two different ones in this situation.

And of course, the Naboo who figth with rifles will teach the Gungans how to use slingers...

And you're the last one on this planet(maybe the whole galaxy) who should use "gameplay>realism"...

Darth Windu
03-13-2004, 05:32 AM
you forgot universe...

Anyhow, just because the Gungans and Royal Naboo use different weapons doesnt mean that the Royal Naboo cant train the Gungans in TACTICS - something which they probably need. That really doesnt matter anyway, considering that Gameplay > Realism.

As for the Confederacy, Vostok has already pointed out that the TF and Confederacy have different fighting styles. Sure, some units are similar, but so what?

03-13-2004, 01:16 PM
Vostok: I don't know how you understood it, but the two starting tcs are fairly close (like a screen's length apart. The gungans can build anywhere, but no one else can build on their swamps, so that gungan buildings remain separate from the others. Also, you can build refugees from the other side if all their tcs are destroyed. I thought it was a better realistic problem.

Windu: In my version of the Separatists, each different faction has its own separate troop building, and these also have different functions too (Commerce Guild building does econ ups, Banking Guild building trades, etc.), although, as i said in my template, it was Vostok's idea, not mine. And, yes, the two sides have different strengths and tactics, too. The gungan units are cheaper than the naboo ones, especially in pop, but less effective, so you'll be using the gungans en masse and the naboo troops (except for their pitiful troopers, who probably won't be seen on the battlefeild once the gungans can get access to their ranged troopers) will be used as support. Also, this nature makes the armies mostly gungan early on and more naboo later when the resources come piling in. Essentially, each side's strengths offset the other's weaknesses.

General Nitro
03-13-2004, 07:53 PM
gungans and naboo need to be seperate yo. its two completely different civilizations on one planet.

03-13-2004, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Anyhow, just because the Gungans and Royal Naboo use different weapons doesnt mean that the Royal Naboo cant train the Gungans in TACTICS - something which they probably need. That really doesnt matter anyway, considering that Gameplay > Realism.

You seem to forget that using different weapons implies using different tactics. Fighting while using slingers will require different tactics then fighting with a rifle.

General Nitro
03-14-2004, 01:13 AM
why would the gungans need training anyways? they did fine in the battle of naboo.

Darth Windu
03-14-2004, 03:21 AM
sith - your Confederacy idea seems to be too complicated as well, but that's for another time. One question though, you say that no-one else can build on the gungan swamp thingy. Is there some way to destroy or move that gungan swamp thingy? I ask because otherwise, gungan workers can go all over the map, building their buildings and denying that land to their enemies.

Nitro - uh...the Gungans got slaughtered in the grassy plains battle. In addition to teaching to help improve their discipline and formation skills, they would need training on how to work with Royal Naboo infantry and armour.

03-14-2004, 03:42 AM
Destroy buliding, swamp goes away. Nothing complicated.

And teh Gungan aren't undiscipline. That's not why they were defeated. How about outgunned and outnumbered?

Darth Windu
03-14-2004, 04:14 AM
luke - it's sith's idea, not yours. Hence my question stands for sith.

As for the gungans, yes, they were undisciplined. Look at their lines of battles when they prepare to fight the TF. Also, they would need to learn to work with Royal Naboo forces. Finally, GAMEPLAY > REALISM

03-14-2004, 03:42 PM
I assumed the answer to your question toward sith would be that. I do not see another alternative. It's how "swamps" are handled in other games anyway.

Destruction of realism for gameplay doesn't make things better.

Admiral Vostok
03-14-2004, 07:30 PM
Destruction of realism for gameplay doesn't make things better.I thought I was the only one who believed that!

Sith: Sorry, I was under the impression that the command centers were somewhat separated. It could work if done right, though I think each command center should possibly be weaker than the other civs' command centers.

Windu: Sith's idea for the Separatists isn't complicated at all (note that I seem to remember the idea is based on mine, as Sith said himself, so I'm commenting on how my Confederacy works). Essentially he's just grouping units that belong to each organisation into the one production building. Just the same as grouping infantry into a barracks and mechs into a factory.

As for combining the Naboo and Gungan units into the same building, I agree it doesn't work. It works for the Separatists because not only do they use the same units as each other but these units are constructed in the same factories as each other. The same cannot be said for the Naboo and Gungans.

Maybe I will try combining the Naboo and Gungans myself. I tried with the Separatists and it didn't work too well, but maybe the Naboo could.

03-14-2004, 08:09 PM
Although I still I'm for "Gameplay>Realism", I'm not for the destruction of realism for gameplay.

I remember an old Vietnamese movie that was telling the story of some vietnamese warriors during the war against France over a 100 years ago. For the sake of the Good guys(Let's call this gameplay) who need to win of course, they made the french unable to use their muskets(realism here would be the french using their muskets and slaughtering the vietnamese). They only used their bayonnets. Just a little side story about Gameplay and realism.

03-14-2004, 08:16 PM
Windu: ditto what Luke and Vostok have said about both of your problems. It would be analogous more to Gaia's lush than the Undead blight or the Zerg creep, in that it is more for the stopping of other players buildings than the control of your own growth.

Vostok: Yeah, you'd probably need that too. TC strengths are based on relative importance, and the one of the two tcs isn't as important as the sole tc. I'd probably do it with hp, and not other stats, though, so that town halls/ohtos can still protect their surrounding area.

Nitro: I agree that, realistically, the gungans don't really need training (they stood up fairly well on the Grassy Plains against a larger and more advanced army, and they did their job, act as a diversion). But that still doesn't mean that the Gungan armies aren't lacking in certain areas (like air units), that a partnership with the Naboo could alleviate.

General Nitro
03-14-2004, 09:38 PM
true dat

Darth Windu
03-15-2004, 05:59 AM
Vostok - the problem with having the seperate buildings for both Naboo and Confederacy is that you have an excess of buildings, and you are really making it so that you are fighting as about 6 or 7 civs as the Confed's, when you should be fighting as one. Ditto for the Gungans.

03-16-2004, 12:10 AM
Actually, since the buildings have other purposes aside from just building units, you end up with the same number for each civ. Same with the Naboo, only this time its cause both sides only have 2 unit production buildings each.

Darth Windu
03-16-2004, 10:37 AM
sith - i suppose it might work, i still object to it but then it's your template.

03-16-2004, 06:36 PM
Its not my "template". Its just my idea. In my template (the one I already did) the Naboo and the Gungans were separate. Although I think I prefer it the new way.

General Nitro
03-19-2004, 01:10 AM
just leave the two seperate..

03-19-2004, 10:36 AM
Leave them seperate Naboo only joined Gungans in that one battle nothing else. The Gungans were only bought into the senate as a royal commitee with Jar Jar representing the Gungans in that commitee they Naboo did not get control over Gungan military and Gungans did not get control over Naboo military. So they are 2 seperate and by no means should be one. Its like 2 countries on the same planet you don't see the US joining forces with Iraqi extremest now do you.

03-19-2004, 01:54 PM
I did it not for realism reasons, but for gameplay reasons. The current number is jut too high, and people would complain if the naboo and the gungans were left out entirely, so it was best to just combine them. It also circumnavigates the problem of gungan air or naboo heavies that look completely stupid.

Darth Windu
03-19-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by FroZticles
Leave them seperate Naboo only joined Gungans in that one battle nothing else. The Gungans were only bought into the senate as a royal commitee with Jar Jar representing the Gungans in that commitee they Naboo did not get control over Gungan military and Gungans did not get control over Naboo military. So they are 2 seperate and by no means should be one. Its like 2 countries on the same planet you don't see the US joining forces with Iraqi extremest now do you.

and you know all of this exactly how? There is absolutely no evidence to support what you just said, in fact the evidence points to the opposite conclusion. Also, your analogy of the US and Iraqi Extremists is way, way, way out of the ball park. Anyway, the reason i chose to merge the Royal Naboo and Gungans are-

1. It allowed me to add another civ to the game (Hutts) without removing 'essential' civs.

2. It is representative of the alliance on Naboo seen at the end of Ep1, and witnessed by both a Royal Naboo and Gungan representing Naboo in the Senate.

3. As Sith said, it removed the problem of having having Naboo mechs and Gungan aircraft. In addition, the two civs actually blend well in all respects, with the Gungans providing Heavy Infantry with the Royal Naboo providing supporting strike mechs and aircraft.

4. Logically, both the Royal Naboo and Gungans would have seen after the events of Ep1 that neither could defend their planet by themselves, and so would have at least begun co-ordinating their forces in the event of planetary attack, particually with the outbreak of the Clone War.

03-20-2004, 11:09 AM
Yes I do have evidence.....

If you have ever bothered to play SWG which I take it you haven't since you never play games online and think you know what is best for the "windu" ohhhh sorry I mean the public. The you would know after the fall of the republic and the rise of the empire the Naboo government and military crumbled. The gungans howver did not there military still stands and there leaders are still on Naboo. And if this merger ever took place which you have no evidence it ever did except the parade at the end of episode 1 which you assume that is a merger but you make sure I can provide some.

1)Thinking about a Hutt civ just shows how clueless you are.

2) Gungan and Naboo senators Padme and Jar Jar were in the royal commitee Padme represting naboo and jar jar gungans if they were merged into 1 there would only be need for 1 there not both.

3)Naboo and Gungans blending well in all aspects is the problem Gungans good ships,mech,troops Naboo good air,jedi,economy where the weakness?

4) Naboo defended itself quite well. If they did not have the aircraft power to shut off the droids then the Gungan army would have ment nothing. The Clone Army protects the Republic including Naboo which is apart of it so there is the security so a Gungan merger is not required. You think after hundreds of years of isolation from the outside world the Gungans will just let the Naboo enlist there troops......

Darth Windu
03-20-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by FroZticles
Yes I do have evidence.....

If you have ever bothered to play SWG which I take it you haven't since you never play games online and think you know what is best for the "windu" ohhhh sorry I mean the public. The you would know after the fall of the republic and the rise of the empire the Naboo government and military crumbled. The gungans howver did not there military still stands and there leaders are still on Naboo. And if this merger ever took place which you have no evidence it ever did except the parade at the end of episode 1 which you assume that is a merger but you make sure I can provide some.

1)Thinking about a Hutt civ just shows how clueless you are.

2) Gungan and Naboo senators Padme and Jar Jar were in the royal commitee Padme represting naboo and jar jar gungans if they were merged into 1 there would only be need for 1 there not both.

3)Naboo and Gungans blending well in all aspects is the problem Gungans good ships,mech,troops Naboo good air,jedi,economy where the weakness?

4) Naboo defended itself quite well. If they did not have the aircraft power to shut off the droids then the Gungan army would have ment nothing. The Clone Army protects the Republic including Naboo which is apart of it so there is the security so a Gungan merger is not required. You think after hundreds of years of isolation from the outside world the Gungans will just let the Naboo enlist there troops......

LOL you are using SWG to justify your position?!?! Getting back from lmao, SWG is completely EU, whereas i take my evidence from the films.

1. This is completely irrelevant to the point

2. Your grammer is pretty bad, but i think you mean there would only be one representative if they were merged? Not true. There are two representatives, with Padme being superior, to represent both peoples. Remember, the races havent merged, they've become friends/allies with resulting co-operation

3. They are weak in terms of siege and heavy weapons. Unlike the Empire, with the AT-AT, and the Republics SPHA-T, the Naboo's heavy mechs are infantry support units, rather than weapons unto themselves

4. Uh...they were defeated. You did watch TPM right? Panaka says at the beginning 'we have no army', and later, Qui-Gon says 'the weapons on your fighters might not be strong enough to penetrate their shields'. The only reason the fighters were successful was because of Anakin (which is the whole point of that sequence). Also, i never said that the Royal Naboo would 'enlist' gungan soldiers, just that they would TRAIN them - big difference.

03-21-2004, 10:43 AM
1)Its definately alot more evidence then what you have based on speculation which you think happened after ep 1. Everything that goes in SWG goes through lucas first if he doesn't approve of things they don't get added. This coming from someone who wants Hutts as a civ..........

3) Gungans have great seige the catapult, large creatures firing there electro balls. Naboo has air bombers they could be seige.

4)Yea Windu they were really defeated thats why the doid control ship was blow up along with some of the Trade Federation commanding officers. This isn't another CtW game Windu just because Theed was taken does not mean the Battle is over. And on this point you totallly took it and turned it into something it's not.

03-21-2004, 04:39 PM
We don't enlist them, we just "train" them lol. Let riflemen teach gungans how to use slingers! lol

Admiral Vostok
03-21-2004, 09:00 PM
Froz - although I'm taking your side I should clear some of your points up:

Nothing on SWG goes through George Lucas personally, just like all EU.

While the Gungans do have good seige weapons in the catapult, in the movies they do not have large creatures firing electroballs, and the Naboo do not have bombers.

03-22-2004, 04:06 AM
I know they don't have those units I'm jsut throwing things out no civ can be balanced with canon units its impossible.

Darth Windu
03-22-2004, 05:36 AM
FroZ - and the whole reason the Gungans dont have 'big creatures that shoot balls' and the Royal Naboo dont have bombers is because siege is their weakness. They are great and some things, and suck at others - which is pretty much the whole point of balancing.

As for the defeat of the Naboo - Theed was taken, the Queen was captured, and Otah Gunga was made into a ghost town - yeah, and 'we are in complete control of the planet now' - yeah, doesnt sound like they were defeated does it?

03-22-2004, 08:42 AM
Theed was taken The Queen was captured for what 10 mins? She escaped and took her planet back didn't she, that does not sound like defeat to me.

Admiral Vostok
03-22-2004, 03:22 PM
If the Naboo were defeated, Windu, how were they able to overthrow the Federation and claim their planet back?

03-22-2004, 07:51 PM
He's yet again talking about real life wars...

Darth Windu
03-23-2004, 09:17 AM
Vostok - the Naboo WERE defeated, because their governmental, economic etc installations and their people were captured by the Trade Federation. Although the Queen escaped and re-took Naboo, you have to remember that she RE-TOOK Naboo. Hence, to re-take something, it must have been taken from you.

As a real life example, take Yugoslavia in WW2. This area was conquered by the Germans rather quickly, but Tito and other leaders resisted the invasion and eventually regained control of their country. The fact is, though, that it was captured by the Germans. Same goes for the Naboo (except no Germans).

03-23-2004, 10:40 AM
Windu we don't want your real life examples they have nothing to do with Star Wars at all.

Winning a battle is far from winning the war, Naboo knew they were gonna get it back eventually the Trade Federation's acts were completely illegal. But the Queen did not want to risk her people for a commitee to investigate the matter so she took matters into her own hands.

Admiral Vostok
03-23-2004, 06:48 PM
Exactly. The Naboo were invaded, not defeated. I would call defeat the inability to fight back.

Darth Windu
03-24-2004, 08:00 AM
When another power has complete and utter control of your people and possetions, i would call that being defeated.

Anyway, Naboo WAS defeated, it's just that some of the people refused to accept that. That doesnt change the fact that the Federation had control of the planet, and had hence defeated the Naboo.

03-24-2004, 09:54 AM
Not just people the friggin Queen didn't accept that and took what is rightfully hers back. Just admit Windu they were not defeated.

Darth Windu
03-24-2004, 11:33 AM
Forzo - first of all, i didnt say 'people', i said 'the people' - there's a difference.

As for Amidala, so what? Here government had collapsed and she fled to Coruscant (kinda sounds like the Netherlands in WW2 doesnt it...).

Just because a ruler escapes doesnt mean the country hasnt fallen. Just accept that Naboo fell and was then re-taken.

03-24-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
As a real life example, take Yugoslavia in WW2. This area was conquered by the Germans rather quickly, but Tito and other leaders resisted the invasion and eventually regained control of their country. The fact is, though, that it was captured by the Germans. Same goes for the Naboo (except no Germans).

I could poke so many holes in that, but this forum is about Star Wars.

My opinion is that Naboo and Gungans shouldn't be combined. I don't have any particular reason for that, it just seems wrong.

However, if you must combine them, it would be entirely possible to make it a balanced civ without contradicting canon too much. So what's this argument about? Er, sounds like nothing to me...

Admiral Vostok
03-24-2004, 07:30 PM
Yes, quite right saberhagen. It's an argument on semantics. Put the argument about whether Naboo was defeated or not as the stupidest argument to ever take up this many posts on this forum.

03-24-2004, 11:21 PM
Exactly it's very stupid but what else can come out of his stupid ideas?. Something great I don't think so.

Darth Windu
03-25-2004, 12:54 AM
once again, left with nothing intelligent to say, forzo resorts to personal insults. How sad...

As for wether the Naboo were defeated or not, i agree, it has no relevance, and we should be discussing the relative merits of combining the Gungans and Royal Naboo.

General Nitro
03-25-2004, 01:48 AM
i cant beleive yall are arging over whether naboo was defeated...

03-25-2004, 02:02 AM
This is by far not the stupidest thread ever posted. *Republic Gunship Thread* Shudder*....

03-25-2004, 05:25 AM
Yea it does seem that the top 5 dumbest post all with the author named Windu anyone surprised???

General Nitro
03-25-2004, 09:32 PM
froz - i too am sensing the barrage of personal insults, but since they dont include me or offend me i will blindly ignore them as if they never happened...

03-26-2004, 02:25 AM
Nitro I'm still waiting for you to make a post with a point and some logic behind but I'm still waiting.....

03-26-2004, 02:45 AM
Now now kids behave. Froz for flinguing insults and Nitro for jumping in and taking a bullet for nothing.

This thread is dead and let it die.

General Nitro
03-26-2004, 03:37 AM
<plays taps>

Admiral Vostok
03-26-2004, 04:41 PM
Froz - actually Nitro was the author of this thread.

Nitro - I meant no offence by saying this thread belongs to you, just that Froz is wrong in blaming Windu.

Windu - actually shouldn't we be discussing the Naboo-Gungan merger in the Naboo-Gungan thread?

03-26-2004, 11:24 PM
Well we were until Windu started going on about Naboo and Gungan merger just after the Battle of Naboo and it went from there.

03-26-2004, 11:37 PM
Windu, you are shooting yourself in your foot by suggesting that the naboo need to be merged with the gungans so that the Hutts can move in. Nobody, except you and Nitro, support them. So give up already. And quit with the history lessons. And don't insult Holland.

Naboo wasn't defeated, they were losing, but far from defeated.

I support merging them out of necessity. Its either they're both cut or they're merged, cause even 6 civs is a little too big for uniqueness and balance. Now, having said that, I think that my idea addresses some of the main problems presented by various people. If they are kept separate, but under one leadership, it stays relatively canon, and a good comprimise between Windu's absurd complete merger and the complete separation, which really cannot happen because of gameplay complications. It also gives them a definite weakness, aside from lacking heavy mechs and decent troops until later. That is logistics, the forced coordination between two baes. If you expand mostly your gungan areas and your enemy comes at you with massed troops, you are screwed. Big time.

Vostok-thats cause the Naboo/Gungan forum is discussing the Hutts.:)

Darth Windu
03-26-2004, 11:47 PM
Sith - no-one here has convinced me yet of a good reason as to why the Hutt Cartel shouldnt be in. Nor has anyone sugested a replacement for them, so where is the motivation in my removing them?

As for the Naboo, they were defeated. Accept it. Move on with your life.

Finally, with Holland, dont EVER think that you can tell me what i can or cannot say about Holland. My oma suffered in Holland under the Nazi's, and my mother is dutch as well.

03-27-2004, 12:32 AM
Windu, it took more than 17 pages, 600 posts, and countless personal insults to "prove" to you that your gunship idea was bad (something that I don't think you actually have stated publicly though), so people have given up on "proving" things to you. Its liek talknig to a brick wall. As long as we hae a forum-wide consensus minus Windu, its a consensus.

EDIT: My Opa suffered under Nazi rule there too, and my mother is dutch as well.

03-27-2004, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Sith - no-one here has convinced me yet of a good reason as to why the Hutt Cartel shouldnt be in. Nor has anyone sugested a replacement for them, so where is the motivation in my removing them?

That's because you never listen to anybody else then you. If we disagree, you end up with "I'm right, you're not" arguments. We've come up with various reasons why they shouldn't be in and the only answer you can give us is "prove it"...

Why do we need a replacement? Less Civs means better balance. BALANCE!
I used to believe myself that we could possibly balance 8 unique civs but now it seems too hard for nothing.

Admiral Vostok
03-27-2004, 01:23 AM
Exactly, Windu. Perhaps no one has convinced you because in the your entire history on this forum, which is almost two years now, you've only ever changed your mind - been "convinced" - twice. Stop coming back with childish retorts like "PROVE IT" and accept that our arguments are entirely valid.

I'll put the items that should convince you in point form, for ease of reading:

:atat: The Hutts are most closely associated with underground crime sydicates like the Mafia in our world. As such they don't march to war, they fight in underhanded, secretive ways. Therefore including them in a game all about marching to war is wrong.

:atat: They don't need a replacement because eight totally unique civs is twice as much as anyone has successfully accomplished. Six is the best we can hope for, even that is pushing it.